GoF CH 27-29 Post DH look/ Snape and Harry and Gargoyles

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 182169

Alla:
> <snip most of post>


> Wait, wait, so there is that boy whom somebody put in that deadly 
> dangerous TWT and Snape should protect him, but he does not think 
> that at the smallest sign of trouble he should rush him to Dumbledore?
> 
> Well, we all know how helpful Snape was in protecting Harry in GoF, 
> he certainly did not save Harry from GoF, so I guess I can see that.
>
Carol responds:
I've already given my arguments, none of which you seem to agree with,
so I won't repeat them here. However, I want to mention that Voldemort
has not yet returned to his body at this point and poses no danger to
Harry except via the TWT, which both DD and Snape are aware of. Nor
does Hrry mention Voldemort in his panicked words to snape--he
mentions only Mr. Crouch being in the forest. Until Snape hears that
Mr. Crouch is acting like a madman, he has no cause for concern.
*Harry 8s in no danger*, nor is the school. Snape is trying to find
out what's going on. Meantime, no point in sending him up to
Dumbledore when DD is coming down anyway. Exactly how he can come down
faster if Harry goes up to him, I don't understand. He still has the
same number of steps to climb down.

I also want to point out that had Snape not come down when he did and
called Harry to him, Harry would not have seen DD at all. And I want
to mention that the two minutes it took for Snape to question Harry
(which, as his teacher and an important member of the Hogwarts staff,
he had every right to do, just as he has the right to take points from
harry and give him detention and make him write essays) would make no
difference whatever to Mr. Crouch, who was to all intents and purposes
a dead man the moment Voldemort gave Barty Jr. orders to kill him. As
soon as Harry disappeared from his sight, Barty Jr., under his
Invisibility Cloak, would have Stunned Krum and killed his father. Mr.
Crouch was probably already dead before Harry got to the Great Hall,
much less the seventh floor. and meanwhile, Barty Jr. was watching
Harry's every move on the Marauder's Map.

Also, had Snape understood that Mr. Crouch was mad and that there was
indeed a need for him to talk to DD, he could have sent a Patronus
rather than giving Harry the password, but he had no opportunity to do
so. And none of them--Harry, Snape, DD--knew that Mr. Crouch was in
deadly peril from which not even Dumbledore could save him. Again,
Barty Jr. had both an Invisibility Cloak and the Marauder's Map.
that's how he knew that Snape had talked to Harry, so he could lie to
DD and tell him that Snape had told him Mr. Crouch was in trouble.
(Yeah, right, Barty. You had already killed your father at that point.)

BTW, Barty gives the following information under the influence of
veritaserum:

"For a week I waited for my father to arrive at Hogwarts.At last, one
evening, the map showed my father entering the grounds. I pulled on my
Invisibility Cloak and went down to meet him. He was walking around
the edge of the forest. Then Potter came, and Krum. I waited. I could
not hurt Potter; my master needed him. Potter ran to get Dumbledore. I
Stunned Krum. I killed my father" (GoF Am. ed. 690).

Barty Sr. never had a chance even if Harry could Apparate directly
into Dumbledore's office. When Harry says that if Snape hadn't held
him up (i.e., kept him where DD would find him when he came
downstairs) he migh have gotten there in time (to save Mr. Crouch),
he's just thinking the worst of Snape, as usual, not looking at the
facts (which, admittedly, he doesn't know until much later). But even
if Snape had acted with the worst of intentions--in league with Barty
Jr., let's say, and deliberately preventing Harry from seeing DD so
that Barty could kill his father--it wouldn't have made any
difference. Viktor Krum was Stunned and Mr. Crouch murdered the moment
Harry was out of Barty Jr.'s sight, after which Barty carries his
father's body into the forest and covers it with the Invisibility
Cloak. *Then* he watches Harry run into the castle, encounter Snape,
and be joined by Dumbledore. He watches Harry and DD coming out of the
castle, then walks back out of the forest and doubles around behind
them, telling DD the lie that Snape had told him to come. 

Harry is mistaken. The two-minute delay (which really wasn't a delay
since DD probably took that long to walk down the stairs) made no
difference. Mr. Crouch was *canonically* already dead. Nor could
anything that Harry told DD have made any difference. He could not
have saved Mr. Crouch. He didn't even know that he was in danger.

Carol, who thinks that we should know by now not to trust Harry's view
of matters regarding Snape and that we need to keep statements like
the one about Snape holding him up with a grain of salt, especially
when we compare his version of events to what we learn from
Veritaserumed!Barty later