ChapDisc - DH 16, Godric's Hollow

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 182207

---  "Caius Marcius" <coriolan at ...> wrote:
>
> ...
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
> CHAPDISC:  Chapter 16 – Godric's Hollow
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 1. How do Harry and Hermione differ in their reaction to Ron's
> departure? (or do they differ?)
> 

bboyminn:

Strange as it may seem to some, I see a very typical 'boy'
and 'girl' reaction here, as well as a very typical 'Harry'
and 'Hermione' reaction. Harry is outwardly stoic in his 
reaction. He is not going to cry or whine over it, but 
internally he is deeply hurt and fearful the Ron's departure
might have been completely justified. 

Hermione, on the other hand, does outwardly display her
emotions, even though in doing so, she, at the same time, tries
to hide them from Harry. I think Hermione's emotional state is
far more complex than Harry's, because Hermione has feelings
for Ron that she feels were betrayed by his departure. In a
sense, she doesn't just feel that Ron has abandon the group,
but that he has abandon her personally. In short, if he really
loved her, he would have stayed for her, no matter how furious
he was with Harry. 

I think Ron's departure tremendously deepens that doubts that
they both have. In their minds, certainly they see themselves
as doing nothing useful. They are wandering around in the woods
blindly while Voldemort grows every stronger, and they are no
closer to solving the mystery of the Horcruxes or the Hallows. 
Even Harry internally expresses his own desire to abandon it
all and just go back to Hogwarts. I think when this blow up
occurs, they are all immensely frustrated by their situation.
Even I was frustrated and furious at Dumbledore for making the
task so hard. 


> 2. Following off that question, I was struck by the richness 
> of the interplay between Harry and Hermione in this chapter.  
> What is your favorite H/H moment from Chapter 16?
> 

bboyminn:

Indeed I think we see the first deep and real interplay of 
emotion that wasn't being played up for humor in Harry, Hermione,
and Ron's interaction.

After Ron leaves, emotions on all sides are running very deep. 
Too deep to deal with in the moment, so their is a delay in
confronting those emotions and discussing them. 

But Hermione being the trooper she is, troops on. She moves 
forward the best she is able. Notice when Harry finally 
suggests Godrics Hollow, Hermione hasn't been mindlessly 
sulking. She has been thinking long and hard about their
problem and what to do about it. 

I think my favorite interaction between them is not in this
chapter but when Hermione and Harry finally talk and speak
Ron's name for the first time. Unknown to them that first 
hint of forgiveness and understanding send Ron the clue he
needs to find his way back. Very clever of Dumbledore to 
set the 'Putter-outer' charms to not activate until Harry
and Hermione speak Ron's name. 


> 3. By the end of DH, we know that Phineas is working for the
> Good Guys, and that he is trying to help pinpoint the 
> whereabouts of the Duo so SilverDoe!Snape can drop off the 
> Sword of Gryffindor. How competent does Phineas seem at his 
> assigned task?
> 

bboyminn:

I think Phineas understood that they weren't going to just
give him their location. That was clear from the start when
they made him wear a blindfold. They didn't even want him to
see the interior of the room they were in for fear that would
give him a clue. So, all Phineas could do is hang around,
which I'm sure we all agree would have been dull.

I think Phineas is a little too smarmy to be able to convince
them he has any real interest in them. That is, the minute he
was nice and polite, they would have seen him for the phony he
was and would have shut him down completely. Which, by the way,
is exactly what they did. Whenever Phineas became to curious
and/or questioning, Hermione immediately cut off the 
conversation and stuffed him back in her bag.

So, the best Phineas could do was to lay back and be Phineas,
and hope they would get so used to him being there that they
would let something slip, which is very close to what happened.


> 4. Why did it take so long for Harry & Hermione to make the
> connection between Godric's Hollow, the Sword of Gryffindor
> and Bagshot?
> 

bboyminn:

I don't think it is that easy a connection to make, especially
when Dumbledore was so NOT forthcoming with information. I 
suspect there were many people in history named 'Godric', so
no reason to assume /that/ Godric was /this/ Godric. Even when
the connection is finally made, it is an extremely thin
connection strung together by the flimsiest of threads. 

Still, it is something, when they have nothing, and in Harry's
mind it serves the dual purpose of letting him go to see his
parents graves. 


> 5. Harry fantasizes how, if not for Voldemort, he would have
> grown up as an ordinary wizard boy in Godric's Hollow. Had 
> that occurred, it's easy to think of all the ways in which 
> Harry would have been different – what (if anything) about 
> Harry would have stayed the same?
> 

bboyminn:

I think Harry would have been very much that same as he is,
though perhaps a little more outgoing, friendly, and trusting.
I don't see him going the 'James' route. By the time Harry
came around, I think James had mellowed substantially. I think
he say that 'high school cool' was not all it was cracked up
to be, and saw himself for the prat he truly was. I don't
think he would want Harry to grow up like that, so I think he
would have made an effort to assure that Harry as a sense of
compassion and understanding for other people. And that, in
life, that compassion and understanding far far out trumps
'cool' in the real world. 

Harry would have been a happy, healthy, outgoing, friendly boy,
who still would have had a strong empathy for the underdog and
the down trodden. 


> 6. The only evidence of the Wizarding World that Harry and Hermione
> see in Godric's Hollow (in this chapter) are the Potter memorial
> statue, and the tombstones.  Where are the signs of life in GH?
> 

bboyminn:

There are plenty of 'signs of life' there. There is an active
lively Pub, and a Church. They just happen to have arrive at
a time when most people were either in one place or the other.

What is missing is signs of 'wizard' life, and considering that
wizard would attempt to blend in both by command of law and by
rule of common sense, we would not have seen any overt sign of
'wizard' life. What did you expect to see, a green witch brewing 
potions in the town square while cackling madly, while ghoul
floated around, and wizard race brooms across the sky?  The 
goal is to blend in.

Still, when you consider the signs of wizard life that we do
see, it is no small matter. A magical memorial in the town 
square, and the shrine of the Potter's house; I think these
are pretty significant. They surprise both Harry and Hermione.


> 7. Why didn't Dumbledore tell Harry about their common roots
> in Godric's Hollow?
> 

bboyminn:

I'm not sure he thought it would matter. Harry and Dumbledore
have never had long mellow conversations over tea. It has
usually been direct and to the point, then Harry was dismissed.
I suspect if Dumbledore had lived longer, he and Harry would 
have had many such conversations after Harry left school. But
that was not to be.

I don't think at any given minute, Dumbledore really knew what
information would be valuable to Harry, and I don't think he
wanted to give Harry information too early. It's part of
Dumbledore's 'need to know' philosophy; no one needs to know
anything until if become strategically advantageous for them
to do so. 

Keep in mind, that Dumbledore willed the sword to Harry, he 
didn't imagine Harry would have any trouble getting it. Yet, 
he must have had some suspicious that the Ministry would be 
resistant, so he (or Snape) had a second sword made just in 
case. But there was no time to plant it anywhere, or make 
provisions for Harry to get it. 

Keep in mind that regardless of the connection made between
Godrics Hollow, Godric Gryffindor, and Gryffindor's sword,
that the sword wasn't and never was at Godrics Hollow. It
was a good guess, but a wrong one. 
 

> 8. What did you first make of the gravesite of "Ignotus" and
> the mysterious symbol? (BTW, "ignotus" in Latin means obscure
> or ignorant).
> 

bboyminn:

Well obviously since the symbol was there, it had to have 
some connection to the Hallows, but it is only later when
the 'Peverell' connection is made that it become more clear.

Notice that JKR cleverly made the last name of Ignotus unclear
in that scene, it is only when Hermione remembers it later
what it become clear...or clearer.


> 9. This chapter offer two quotations from the New Testament –
> the first verse upon the Dumbledore family headstone is from
> Matthew 6:21
> ...
> --- 21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be 
> also.
> 
> The quote also appears in Luke 12:33-34, ...
> 
> --- ... 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will 
> be also.
> 
> Harry says he does not know what the inscription means. What 
> does it mean? (in the context of DH).
> 

bboyminn:

I think the meaning is slightly obscured by the ancient language,
but it is not that unclear. A modern writer would probably say,
Where you /heart/ is, there your /treasure/ will be also. And,
the central theme is that real treasure or worth is found in 
the more abstract aspects of life. The real value is in what
and who you love. 

> 10. The second Scripture verse, upon the Potters' headstone, 
> is from... Corinthians, 15:26 ...
> 
> --- ... 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
> 
> "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." – Harry's
> initial reaction is that this is a Death Eater slogan.  How 
> does this statement differ from the Death Eater philosophy?
> 

bboyminn:

I've already addressed these elsewhere in this thread. I think
how this differs from the DE philosophy is in the interpretation.
People are always coming up with self-serving interpretations of
the Bible. A DE could interpret this as a 'conquer death' 
ideology, where as more open minded people would realize that it
refers to eternal spiritual life, not eternal mortal life. Anyone
with half a brain would realize the true eternal mortal life is
a curse of the highest order. 


> 11. Harry supposes that Dumbledore selected the inscription 
> for his mother and sister – who selected the epitaph for the 
> Potters?
> 

bboyminn:

As others have said, since Dumbledore was making the 
arrangements, he likely selected the inscription. Though I
don't think he knew in that moment, the long term impact
that statement would have on his plans. 

I think each inscription was very appropriate for those for
whom the inscription was made. 


> 12. If you were unaware that these were Biblical passages, did
> that change your interpretation of these epitaphs?
> 

bboyminn:

As I said in another part of this thread, I don't think it is
that important that these are 'Biblical' passages. I think
the are sufficiently appropriate as to be understood in the
context of the story, and to be understood in the universal
aspects of other religious.


> 13.  Throughout the cemetery sequence, Harry and Hermione are
> in the guise of a middle-aged Muggle couple.  If you were 
> directing the film version of Deathly Hallows, would you drop
> the Polyjuice disguises and have Daniel Radcliffe and Emma 
> Watson perform the scene?  Or would you film it with Harry 
> and Hermione portrayed by two completely unfamiliar actors?
> 

bboyminn:

As discussed else where, I too see this as a problem in the
movies. I suspect it could be solved in this one Godrics
Hollow scene by having them use Aging Potion rather than
Polyjuice, but I don't see Aging Potion working in the other
scenes. It will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Steve/bboyminn