Chapter Discussion 16 / Alla's comments on GoF (and replies to her)

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 182235

CMC:
> << why didn't Scrimgeour recognize it ["Grindelwald's mark"]? >>
> 
Catlady:
> That's a good question, which IIRC canon never answered. It seemed
that a lot of British wizarding folk didn't recognize that symbol worn
by nutty Xenophilius as Grindelwald's sign. One possibility is that
British wizarding paid no attention to what Grindelwald was doing on
the Continent (IIRC Herself said something like that in an interview)
and another possibility is that it *wasn't* Grindelwald's sign. Krum
recognized it from where Grindelwald had carved it in a wall at
Durmstrang. He might have carved it in his student days rather than
his dictator days. He might have carved it as the sign of the Deathly
Hallows rather than as the sign of his future empire. He might have
had a *different* sign to put on the flags and prisons and other
government buildings of his empire.
> 
> Even so, Scrimgeour should have had access to wizarding reference
books of symbols which should have listed it as the sign of the
Deathly Hallows, worn by nutcases who thought they could obtain
earthly immortality by finding three treasures described in a fairy
tale. Maybe he did, and Albus, who was a nutcase himself, had written
the sign on the specific fairy tale, maybe just because he wanted to
write down the connection.

Carol responds:
Clearly, the sign meant the Deathly Hallows and dates back to the
Peverell brothers themselves since it appeared on Ignotus's tombstone.
And someone other than Ignotus must have put it there, either his
brother Antioch or, more likely, his son (or daughter). That he had
offspring despite supposedly wearing the Invisibility cloak for the
rest of his life (a fable element, I'm sure) is clear from Harry's
being his descendant. Antioch also had descendants, including Tom
Riddle. Quite possibly, Cadmus didn't. He could well have died
violently soon after making the Elder Wand (as opposed to receiving it
from Death); at any rate, his descendants, if any, don't come into the
picture.

As for Scrimgeour, Dumbledore calls him "a man of action." I don't
think he was a scholar (though he was far from stupid). He was the
Head of the Auror Office before become MoM and an Suror before that. I
don't know whether he could read runes; maybe he used a rune
dictionary to decipher the runes as if they were a code, which is why
it took him a whole month to discover that the book was nothing but a
collection of children's tales. (He must not have examined the sign at
any length or he'd have realized that it had been inked in and was not
the original picture for that chapter. Or, as you say, he thought that
DD was a nutcase like Xenophilius Lovegood (who might have been about
Scrimgeour's age and consequently familiar to him).

Catlady:
> It seems that Herself chose the names of the Peverell brothers,
Antioch, Cadmus, and Ignotus, for their initial letters, in which I is
the straight line representing the wand, A is the triangle
representing the cloak, and C is the circle representing the stone,
adding up to that symbol. 

Carol:
Interesting! I don't recall reading that, but it makes sense. Do you
have a link to an interview where she said that?
> 
Catlady:
> Any one have any idea what she meant by Antioch and Cadmus? Didn't
Cadmus in mythology sow the dragon's teeth that quickly turned into
warriors who immediately killed each other until only six were left?
She may have meant that for the violent brother. 
<snip>

Carol:
Yes, I think Cadmus, like his namesake, sowed the seeds of discord.
But all I know about antioch is that it's a city in Syria. No idea why
that brother had that name. (Ignotus makes perfect sense for the
inventor of the Invisibility Cloak, who would be "unknown" whenever he
put it on, as I said before.)

Alla:
> 
> << If Sirius knows about DE, why doesn't he know what Dark mark is? > 
Catlady:
> If the Dark Mark had been visible on DEs' arms in Vold War I, it
would have been easy to arrest all the DEs -- just examine every
wizard and witch's forearm. I suppose part of LV's spell for branding
his vassals was that the Mark was invisible to everyone except people
bearing the Mark, and LV himself of course. <snip>

Carol:
I'm not so sure. I think that a lot of people, including fudge, simply
didn't know that the DEs had the same mark on their arms that they
conjured in the sky after they murdered. And I think that by the time
most of the DEs were rounded up and arrested, the Dark Mark had faded
almost beyond detection (which is why the DEs thought or claimed to
think that LV was dead). Certainly, it grew darker as he grew
stronger, even before the resurrection potion/incantation in the
graveyard. I snipped your comment about LV being stronger in the first
war than the second; I don't think that's the answer. Fudge, Harry,
and everyone else in the room could see Snape's Dark Mark even after
it had stopped burning. Granted, that's after the restoration to a new
body, but I think it would have been visible to anyone, not just a
fellow DE, when it first started growing darker in GoF. Otherwise,
Snape wouldn't have been so angry and demanded that Karkaroff "Put it
away!" He didn't want the students, especially Harry, to see it.

Alla: 
> << I was never able to jump from the fence on this one. Was he or
was not he? >>
> 
Catlady:
> Well, Barty Jr was quite a loyal servant of LV by the time DD gave
him Veritaserum and he bragged about it. If he had been innocent when
convicted, but picked up that obsessive devotion to LV while
imprisoned in Azkaban or under his father's Invisibility Cloak, then
it must have been Bertha who told Peter and LV about it. <snip>

Carol:
I don''t think that he would have been with the Lestranges unless he
was guilty, and Bellatrix would never have allowed him the credit or
honor (her view) of being arrested with them had he not been one of
the "loyal" ones. Barty Jr. couldn't have picked up any beliefs or
knowledge of the Unforgiveable Curses in Azkaban; he was under the
influence of the Dementors, terrified out of his mind, even in the
courtroom, and would have died within the year had his father not
ill-advisedly rescued him. He must have known the Unforgiveable Curses
(which he had thoroughly mastered) before going to Azkaban and
acquired his fanatical devotion before that time (making him a fit
companion for the somewhat older Lestranges and an ideal follower of
Bellatrix). His hatred of Death Eaters who walked free is explained
only if he, like Bellatrix, is a DE who went to prison for LV. I think
his words under Veritaserum make it clear that he was already a loyal
DE. I don't think that he could have become a DE post-Azkaban. What
cause would LV have for entrusting him with such an important mission
if he didn't know for sure that Barty Jr. had been as loyal to him as
the Lestranges? (Winky and Mr. Crouch wouldn't have encouraged him to
remain loyal to LV. The whole reason that he had to stay under the
Imperius Curse and the Invisibility Cloak rather than being allowed to
escape incognito to some other part of the world was his loyalty to
LV. His father was not only ashamed of him but afraid, with good
reason, of what would happen if he escaped. 

Carol, wishing everyone who celebrates it a happy Easter