Who needs Harry? (was: GoF CH 27-29 Post DH look/ Snape and Harry redux)

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 182315

Magpie:
<snip>
> There's also Voldemort's obsession with Hogwarts that leads to the 
objects, or with his own ancestry, which leads to Slytherin.

Carol responds:
Who knew about that obsession? No one except Dumbledore. He didn't
advertise it, even to his DEs. Nor did he apparently collect
"trophies" (other than the diary, which was already his) of his crimes
at Hogwarts. Nor would anyone have known that the ring was a trophy
representing his murder of his father and gradparents. I doubt that he
told even his Slytherin dormmates. LV was as secretive in his way as
Dumbledore. Now, yes, that knew or suspected that he was the Heir of
Slytherin and viewed his ability to speak Parseltongue as proof, but
they wouldn't have known about the memory in the diary. (As for its
being a Horcrux, not even Lucius, to whom he finally entrusted it,
knew that.)
> 
> Or there's also what he did with those objects after they got them.
Every aspect of creating a Horcrux could leave a trace of what you 
were doing. 

Carol:

I'm not sure what you mean here. The murders could perhaps have been
traced to Tom Riddle, which is what DD was trying to do by tracking
down the memories before the very old Hokey and the already crazy
Morfin died in Azkaban. But no one would know that he used those
murders to make Horcruxes because he conveniently disappeared. And he
might have stolen the cup and the locket because they were beautiful,
powerfully magical, and historically significant (one of them
connected with his Slytherin heritage) without intending to make
Horcruxes out of them. Even if, say, Caractacus Burke (not the most
scrupulous of Wizards and unlikely to care about anything except his
own failure to acquire those valuable objects) had voiced his
suspicions regarding the theft and murder to the Aurors and those
suspicions had been confirmed (which required DD's ability as a
Legilimens to extract the memory from Hokey in any case), Tom Riddle
had fled the country and no one could see the difference in his
appearance caused by the making of the two new Horcruxes. And they
probably wouldn't have made the connection between the theft/murder
and the altered appearance, anyway. That had to be the result of some
Dark magic, but they'd never known anyone who'd made even one Horcrux
(the only other Wizard I know of who made one was the ancient Greek
Wizard Herpo the Foul). <snip>

Magpie:
We didn't know Horcruxes existed, but Wizards do 
> because magic is part of their world. It's surprising nobody else
made Horcruxes, to be honest. But the information was there for the 
taking. There was no information in the one library at Hogwarts, but
even Hermione was able to just look the things up in books once she 
figured out who had taken them all out. 

Carol:

I'm having trouble following your reasoning here. The information on
Horcruxes was in the restricted section of the library, accessible to
NEWT DADA students with permission from an instructor until Dumbledore
removed the books from the library while Tom Riddle was still at
school. Tom must have discovered it just in the nick of time.
Obviously, Voldemort didn't share that information with his Slytherin
friends. He wanted the power over death to be his own. He didn't want
them in on the secret. And no one under Tom's age (seventy-one as of
DH) would even know about them. Certainly, the Death Eaters didn't.
And people like Mr. Crouch and Mad-Eye Moody, who would perhaps be
close to Voldemort's age, don't seem to know about them, either. the
subject was not taught at Hogwarts, and only those students deeply
interested in Dark magic (which Barty Sr. hated) would have known
about them. And that's when the books were still available.

Slughorn, who is nearly as old as Dumbledore (he was already
middle-aged when he was teaching Tom Riddle and began teaching at the
same time as Dumbledore, so he must be around 100 years old) knows
about Horcruxes, but (like most people) finds the idea repugnant. Not
even Grindelwald, a former Durmstrang student with no qualms about
murder and an interest in immortality (the Deathly Hallows) was
willing to take that route to obtain it. Perhaps Caractacus Burke
knew--I think he would have known a Horcrux had one shown up in his
shop--but he wouldn't make one himself (being a shady dealer in Dark
objects and a murderer are not the same thing), not to mention that,
as Slughorn says, existence in such a form (as a mangled, bodiless
soul when your body is destroyed) doesn't have any great appeal for
most people. 

Anyway, I doubt very much that even highly skilled, intelligent
Wizards knew about Horcruxes except for a few rare cases. Snape
probably would have if DD hadn't confiscated the books, but, as it
was, no British Wizard under seventy would know about them, and few of
those would have the incentive to explore Dark magic not taught at
Hogwarts in that depth. )Durmstrang might have been a different
matter, but LV never got the chance to take over the European WW,
thanks to his own mistakes and failings. And Godric's Hollow and Harry
and all that.)

Magpie:
Then there seemed to be a pretty clear list of things that could
destroy them including basilisk venom (and why wouldn't that be
obtainable on the black market along with other stuff that's dangerous
to get like dragon's blood and giant spider poison?) 

Carol:
Because you have to be a Parselmouth to control one, so only a
Parselmouth would hatch one (unless the Dark Wizard doing so wanted to
be killed by his own creation). And Parselmouths are extremely rare.
Dragon's blood, however dangerous to acquire, is commonly available.
And Acromantuals are only thought to be rare; the black marketeers
don't know about the colony at Hogwarts!

Magpie:
and fiend fire (that dumb 17-year- olds can make) or whatever other
things exist. 

Carol:
Fiend-Fyre that kills its own caster? I'll take Basilisk venom,
conventiently made available by the accidental Parselmouth, Harry
Potter, thank you!

Magpie: 
> And that's going the route of assuming you have to kill him rather
than considering taking away his power in other ways--Dumbledore's
careful guarding of Tom Riddle's underwhelming origins being an 
example where he seems to be helping him weild superstitious power
over the population. 

Carol responds:
Superstition aside (and the WW may be wiser than DD if the name was
jinxed in VW1 as well as VW2), I don't see anyone able to "take away
his power in other ways." Are you forgetting the duel with Voldemort
and his ability to possess people, not to mention his horribly
invasive Legilimency that only Snape (and possibly DD) can resist? Now
granted, JKR could have done more to show us the "great and terrible"
deeds that LV performed with his yew-and-Phoenix-feather wand in VW1,
but he gets Dementors and Giants to do his bidding and persuades
werewolves to obey him. Even animals do what he wants them to do.
Remember his description of the powers he had as an eleven-year-old
before he even owned a wand?

"I can make things move without touching them. I can make animals do
what I want them to do, without training them. I can make bad things
happen to people who annoy me. I can make them hurt if I want to" (HBP
271). He hung a rabbit from the rafters without a wand, and, more
impressive in a dark way, he not only climbed the cliff to the cave
but forced two Muggle children to come with him.

Other Wizarding children made bad things happen to people when they
were angry through accidental magic (Severus's tree branch and Harry's
inflating of Aunt Marge), but LV at eleven was already controlling his
wandless magic, controlling objects, animals, and people.

When DD told Tom that no one would force Tom to attend Hogwarts, Tom
responded: "I'd like to see them try." Dumbledore says something
similar of himself much later with regard to Azkaban:'I could escape,
of course." We're talking about powerful Wizards here. You're not
going to Stupefy Voldemort and force him to spill his guts by pouring
Veritaserum down his throat. In the unlikely event that you can
outduel him (see OoP), he could possess you. And there's always the
Imperius Curse, which may not work on Harry (or a superb Occlumens
like Snape) but works just fine on ost people.

Carol, who finds LV's Legilimency a lot scarier than his ability to
fly or even the power of possession