Who needs Harry? (was: GoF CH 27-29 Post DH look/ Snape and Harry redux)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 182319

> > Magpie:
> > How come Dumbledore could consider the possibility? 
> 
> Carol:
> Because he, unlike most other people in the British WW, knew about
> Horcruxes for the reasons that I've already given.

Magpie:
Somebody else could study the Dark Arts and so learn about these 
things the way Dumbledore did. (Surely somebody should have at some 
point.) I'd be surprised if Nicholas Flamel knew nothing of the 
concept, for instance. Other people might have reason to investigate 
immortality magic given that their Overlord is into the stuff. 
Especially if they actually attempt to kill the guy and something odd 
happens.

> > Magpie:
> > I thought the reasoning was simple: I think the idea that no one 
can
> know about a particular subject because it was once in the 
restricted
> section of the school library which is only open to NEWT level 
> students, and then those books were removed to the Headmaster's
> office, is a bit silly. 
> 
> Carol:
> Thank you very much. I, on the contrary, think that it's perfectly
> reasonable that information found only in the restricted section
> accesible only to a very few people, most of whom would not be
> interested in committing murder so that souls would be anchored to 
the
> earth, and then accessible to nobbody would be generally known, and
> the few people, such as Caractacus Burke or Horace Slughorn, who 
know
> such things (but don't act on them) keep the knowledge to 
themselves.

Magpie:
They don't have to be interested in creating Horcruxes for 
themselves. They only have to be interested in the study of advanced 
dark magic or possible things Voldemort might be studying. These 
things are in books that are in a school library--why would anybody 
put them in books if nobody was interested enough in them enough to 
write them down or think anyone else would read about them? 
Information found in the high school library isn't generally so 
esoteric that nobody could possibly have heard about it. Since when 
are teenagers not interested in spooky magic, after all?

> 
> Magpie:
> The information exists in the world. It's even in books. People 
could
> know it. <snip>
> 
> Carol: People could learn how to fly, too. Snape did. Certainly, 
it's
> remotely possible that books written before Tom Riddle went to 
school
> by people who are probably already dead (or "gaga" like Bathilda
> Bagshot) could be read by somebody who had both the opportunity and
> the motive, but the problem is, there aren't any Wizarding 
circulating
> libraries,

Magpie:
Most Wizards in Britain pretty much went to Hogwarts and had access 
to this library, actually, which means a lot of people with an 
interest in Dark Magic could have read about them (before Dumbledore 
hid all the books on the subject). But regardless, they don't have to 
have read the stuff before. I'm talking about doing research in 
response to Voldemort. I don't agree that unless a person already 
knew about Horcruxes before Voldemort there's no possible way they 
could have come to learn about them afterwards. The guy leads a group 
of Death Eaters--why wouldn't people be researching anything related 
to death eating?

Carol:
and the only books on the subject (except possibly books in
> the Black family home that Regulus somehow found) that we know of 
are
> now in Dumbledore's office, accessible to no one (Hermione has the
> advantage of knowing about Horcruxes and knowing that those books 
are
> there, information that no one else except Harry and Ron has and 
they
> aren't as sneaky as she is). 

Magpie:
So nobody could possibly figure out about Horcruxes except 
Dumbledore, Slughorn...and that one teenager who did find out about 
Horcruxes without Dumbledore and without any of the advantages 
Hermione had. So right there in canon is somebody who figured out the 
Horcrux idea after Voldemort's rise, and without being Dumbledore. 
We're not told how Regulus found it out (though if the Blacks have 
books about Horcruxes obviously British Wizards can have books about 
Horcruxes) but he found out about them somehow--probably without 
looking up the word Horcrux.

Carol:
I personally think that Regulus finding
> out about Horcruxes under these circumstances is a lot harder to
> believe than no one else knowing about them. If *Snape* didn't know
> about them, no one would. 

Magpie:
And yet Regulus did know about them, so maybe discovering about the 
Horcruxes isn't about being the smartest Wizard ever, but just doing 
the right research? As you suggest here, Voldemort didn't tell 
Regulus he had Horcruxes. The teenager figured it out by himself 
following whatever clues he followed. 

Carol:
> Okay, so it's remotely possible that someone somewhere in the 
British
> WW (other than DD and the recalcitrant Slughorn and the dead
> Caractacus Burke knows about Horcruxes. Maybe one of the 
Unspeakables
> does. But it doesn't look like it, does it? It may be possible, but
> it's not remotely likely. 

Magpie:
In canon no, it doesn't seem like any of them know that Voldemort has 
Horcruxes (though some may have that theory). Whether they know what 
Horcruxes are I don't think we can say one way or another. Nobody 
seems to have been doing much of an investigation, whether anyone had 
ever heard of a Horcrux or not. Regulus Black wanted to take 
Voldemort down so looked for ways to do it and came up with this. The 
only good side plan to take Voldemort down that we hear about is the 
Prophecy plan.

Carol:
And even if it were, it takes Dumbledore's
> early research into people's memories, conducted before even *he*
> suspected Horcruxes, and his skilled Legilimency to obtain the
> memories, to determine what the objects are. 

Magpie:
That's the way Dumbledore does it. A lot of my post was about how 
that wasn't necessarily the only way to do it if that way wasn't 
possible. I think most in-depth investigations into Voldemort's life 
would have turned up his associations with these people and objects 
and his obsession with death. We'll never know how that investigation 
would have gone, but the possibility would be there. With no Harry to 
save them and Voldemort breathing down their necks they'd have to do 
something or else just roll over in defeat.

Carol:
Even if Caractacus Burke
> stepped forward with the theory that Riddle murdered Hepzibah to 
steal
> those two objects, there are plenty of other reasons to steal
> powerfully magical, beautiful objects associated with famous people,
> one of them LV's ancestor, than to make them into Horcruxes. DD 
could
> not have suspected the Horcrux idea until he saw Tom again ten years
> later.

Magpie:
Sure there are other reasons to take objects. But there are other 
things about LV that could lead to Horcruxes as one possibility. 
Tom's physical transformation is another clue.

> Carol earleir:
> > > Anyway, I doubt very much that even highly skilled, intelligent
> Wizards knew about Horcruxes except for a few rare cases. Snape
> probably would have if DD hadn't confiscated the books, but, as it
> was, no British Wizard under seventy would know about them, and few 
> of those would have the incentive to explore Dark magic not taught 
at
> Hogwarts in that depth. )
> > 
> > Magpie:
> > I'd think Voldemort would provide an obvious incentive for doing
> just that.
> >
> Carol:
> Can you explain how they're supposed to explore magic whose 
existence
> they don't know about? 

Magpie:
You explore the Dark Arts, particularly stuff having to do with 
immortality, because the guy taking over your country is really into 
the Dark Arts and immortality. They don't have to start off looking 
up Horcruxes, they study all sorts of Dark Arts and Horcruxes are 
part of that field of study. Hopefully you don't confine yourself to 
just the Hogwart's library--or if you are looking there there's some 
record of books that have been removed and therefore might have 
hidden information in them. (If Tom took them out and there was a 
record of that, that would be a good help.) Unfortunately the 
Hogwarts library has been tampered with by Dumbledore, but then, 
since Tom Riddle went to school there one could expect them to 
consider that library suspect anyway. (But I think they would 
definitely look up books he took out while at school.) So maybe you 
go to Durmstrang or Dark Arts experts who have their own libraries.

Carol:
 So I suppose they're
> just supposed to go out into the world and find the books that
> somebody must have written that must exist somewhere. that, if I may
> borrow the word you used to describe my idea earlier, is just plain 
silly.

Magpie:
As I hope I've explained now, they're not looking up "Horcruxes," 
they're studying the Dark Arts because that's what Voldemort has 
studied. Horcruxes are just one of many things that are part of the 
Dark Arts, specifically stuff having to do with death. Presumably 
that's how Dumbledore learned about them, right? He didn't look up a 
word he'd never heard, he learned about them because he studied 
advanced magic. Presumably the same went for Slughorn and Tom Riddle--
he wasn't looking for a word called Horcruxes, he was studying ways 
to extend his life via Dark Magic and that's what was there. 

 
> Carol earlier:
> > Durmstrang might have been a different matter, but LV never got 
the
> chance to take over the European WW, thanks to his own mistakes and
> failings. And Godric's Hollow and Harry and all that.)
> > 
> > Magpie:
> > So having information available at Durmstrang would be like it 
not 
> > existing at all? To me something being at Durmstrang makes it 
barely 
> > more out of reach than having it in the restricted section at 
> > Hogwarts.
> 
> Carol:
> Sigh. I didn't say that Durmstrang definitely had such books. I said
> that it *might* have been a different matter since the Dark Arts are
> reputedly taught there. But headmaster Karkaroff clearly didn't know
> about the Horcruxes, and Great Dark Wizard Grindelwald, who knew 
about
> the Deathly Hallows, never made one, so we can't know whether he 
knew
> about them or not.

Magpie:
Yes, I realized you weren't saying they definitely had them, since 
obviously you wouldn't know. (Hogwarts had them before Dumbledore 
stole them, so I can't imagine why they wouldn't.) I was just 
responding to the idea that books being in the other school's library 
meant the knowledge was out of reach.

Obviously Horcruxes aren't something that is common knowledge. But I 
don't see why nobody could get that knowledge in studying related 
things. In fact we know they could, because Dumbledore, Slughorn, Tom 
Riddle and Regulus all at some point found out what they were. 

Carol:
 And even Durmstrang has its limits or GG would
> never have been expelled. I doubt that they teach the Unforgiveables
> to students under the equivalent of NEWT level (it would be utterly
> stupid to do so), and probably Horcruxes, which, after all, require
> both murder and the mutilation of the soul, probably aren't taught 
at
> all, but information about them might be accessible to upper-level
> students doing research. The thing is, you have to have heard of a
> Horcrux to look it up, or you have to be diligently searching for a
> means of obtaining earthly immortality, as Tom Riddle was, to 
stumble
> upon the knowledge accidentally. 

Magpie:
Bingo! Tom Riddle was looking for means of obtaining earthly 
immortality and found this information in the Hogwarts library. I've 
never suggested kids were taught how to make them in class. (Though 
certainly at Durmstrang they might be told of them without ever 
making them themselves. They are studying the Dark Arts after all.)

Carol:
(How Slughorn, who was not interested
> in such things, knew about them, I can't guess. Maybe they were 
still
> occasionally mentioned by teachers when he was in school in the 
early
> twentieth century. Or JKR needed him to know about them as a plot
> device. Note that he didn't know the spell used to create them 
unless
> he was lying.)

Magpie:
Yes, he's another person who knows about them and as you say, knows 
about them without ever wanting to make one. I have no problem 
believing that they are occasionally mentioned in lots of specialized 
circumstances in the WW. They're not taught in school, but people 
could still come across them doing different types of study. Hogwarts 
doesn't seem to have ever taught them but Slughorn managed to pick up 
the information somewhere. 

> 
> > Magpie:
> > However hard you imagine it is to get the venom of a basilisk, it 
> > sounds like just the type of thing that would be sold in 
Knockturn 
> > Alley to me. 
> 
> Carol:
> To you. To me, Basilisks seem much more rare than dragons or even
> Acromantulas and their venom unobtainable unless you can control the
> Basilisk through Parseltongue. 

Magpie:
Well, however hard they are to get, if that's what you need to take 
out the guy who's supposedly so awful, I think that would just be 
part of the challenge. Somebody's going to go off and kill a basilisk-
-I'm sure many a Gryffindor would love the idea. (Maybe they could 
make a tournament of it!) Can nobody in the entire world be up for a 
challenge but Harry--who killed a basilisk when he was all of 12 
years old without being able to control it with Parseltongue? They'd 
have to do it differently than Harry, obviously, but then they would 
also be more prepared than Harry beforehand.

Carol:
Harry could never have killed the
> Basilisk unless Fawkes had blinded it first. They kill you by 
looking
> at you, rember? 

Magpie:
Unless you're a rooster, in which case many say basilisks can be 
killed by your crowing--I believe JKR kept this part and that's why 
Ginny was killing roosters. Also, anyone who knows Greek mythology 
would think of killing it with big mirrors. Or of course you could 
use mirrors or specially trained archers who can shoot blindly, or 
probably other methods if you think creatively, to blind the 
basilisk. Or maybe you borrow Fawkes since Dumbledore is supposed to 
be on your side. 

Or perhaps they just look up the last time a place was being attacked 
by a basilisk that would have had to be killed and then go steal 
teeth from the skeleton, since apparently the venom lasts for years 
after its death.

Carol:
So you are free to believe that, like Acromantula
> venom surreptitiously stolen by Slughorn from a freshly dead
> Acromantula, Basilisk venom occasionally shows up on the black 
market
> to be bought by people intending to destroy the Horcruxes that 
nobody
> knows about (if they're intent on murder, there are easier and 
cheaper
> methods.) i, however, see no reason to think that Basilisk venom is
> even that easily obtainable.

Magpie:
Basilisk venom could be used in ther things besides Horcrux-killing, 
actually. I wouldn't expect it to be on the market just for killing 
Horcruxes. 
> 
> Magpie:
> However they got it--I don't think you'd have to be raising one from
> an egg. 
> 
> Carol:
> 
> Okay, then. They just find one that's been holed up somewhere living
> on rats for a thousand years like the one in the CoS? If it were
> loose, it would be Petrifying people, or rather, killing them with 
its
> stare (or its venom if it's feeling vicious). Do you think there are
> Basilisk reservations to match the dragon preserves? I very much 
doubt
> it. 

Magpie:
They exist in the world. If it's out petrifying people presumably 
there'd be a force raised to kill it anyway I'd imagine. They'd have 
to do that to protect themselves. Then they'd have venom.

Carol:
Again, only a Parselmouth can control a Basilisk. If one's around,
> you'd better have a rooster handy.

Magpie:
Yeah, that would be a good idea. Good thing roosters aren't all that 
hard to obtain at all.


> Magpie:
> And given how important this would be to their entire country, I'd
> think that rare as it is, some would be gotten. In canon we are of
> course restricted to things that three teenagers would have easy
> access to at Hogwarts, because nobody else in the entire country is
> part of the fight.
> 
> Carol:
> 
> *If* they knew about Horcruxes and how to destroy them and *if* they
> knew that Tom Riddle had created them. And even then, they'd need to
> know how many there were, what they were, and how many there were 
and
> how to get past the protections on the locket and the ring.

Magpie:
Yes, this is all part of the alternate universe where people have 
been working very hard to investigate stuff that Voldemort is doing. 
Obviously it wouldn't be an easy task. However, if the book had been 
written this way I'm sure the idea of a small group of teenagers 
doing it would sound even more far-fetched. We don't know the half of 
stuff Voldemort has done, only the stuff Dumbledore fastened onto. 
Somebody investigating from a different angle would probably come up 
with just as much information, just not from the "I was his teacher 
at school" angle. One possibility, as I said, was that there might be 
more about whatever you have to do to make a Horcrux.

I completely understand your not being interested in this alternate 
possibility and preferring to just look at the story that's there. 
But that's what we're talking about. These things just don't sound so 
impossible to me given the way this world is supposed to work in the 
canon I've got. Would this story be a better plot? I've no idea. I 
think it would be so different it's apples and oranges. It'd probably 
need to be an adult book written by somebody else. It's not the stuff 
Rowling's interested in. But she didn't write a world that made these 
other things impossible--in fact she opened the door for them by 
sketching in vague ideas about adult resistance movements and other 
professionals.

So it comes down to "Could somebody write a fanfic about a world with 
no Chosen One?" and the answer to me just seems to be a resounding 
yes. They could make it completely believable and find different ways 
around all the problems in canon. Canon leaves lots of ways open for 
that.

Carol: 
> And what do you mean, easy access? If Harry hadn't spoken
> Parseltongue, they'd never have gotten in to the Chamber of Secrets.
> Dumbledore tried repeatedly and couldn't do it. 

Magpie:
I mean the easy access they had in DH. They were there, they had to 
be able to grab something there, and they did. Ron and Hermione just 
had to nip up to the bathroom and say the words Ron knew. And before 
you go through the plot of CoS and DH to remind me how he was able to 
do that and how hard it was to kill the basilisk years before, I know 
how he was able to do that. But in that moment in DH, basilisk venom 
was easily at hand (despite the basilisk being dead for years.) In 
DH, there's no big struggle whatsoever to get to the basilisk venom. 
It was taken care of earlier. That's how JKR solved that problem in 
DH.


Carol:> 
> *Can* Fiend-Fyre be released in a controlled environment? Where's 
the
> canon for that? It destroys everything in its path and Harry, Ron,
> Draco, and the unconscious Goyle escaped only because there were two
> brooms handy. (A bit of a coincidence and authorial manipulation, I
> concede.)

Magpie:
So how come the school's still standing at the end? Shouldn't the 
fire have continued to destroy everything?

Carol: who is *not* rejecting options like a picky eater but is
> answering your very generalized and hypothetical speculations using
> canon-based arguments and would appreciate seeing some canon on your
> side of the argument (with a cessation of adjectives like "silly" 
and
> "nitpicking" regarding my arguments, which are anything byt)

Magpie:
No, I can't give you canon, because I'm not talking about canon. The 
whole point of the discussion is "what if Snape didn't give the 
Prophecy to Voldemort--or what if the Prophecy had never been made?" 
Would the WW have had no other possible hope of destroying Voldemort? 
And given that I've got a world full of allegedly competent adult 
wizards, some of whom are supposed to be quite intelligent and 
talented and brave and committed to the cause I just can't believe 
they could never possibly have come up with a solution for the 
problem of this one guy obsessed with immortality who made six 
Horcruxes. A guy who was ultimately taken out by Harry and his 
friends. I can't prove it by showing other possibilities actually 
happening in canon because they didn't happen in canon. Everybody 
just sat around and waited for Harry to fulfill the Prophecy and do 
all the things you needed to get rid of the Horcruxes himself. But if 
somebody wanted to tackle this in fanfic, sure I think it could be 
believable. 

And Harry and his friends just never seem to see their task as as 
hopeless as it's being described here. I guess what you're actually 
doing is just rejecting ideas because the steps involved were never 
shown in canon, but because of the way I'm looking at the problem 
(differently) I feel like we're at a "Bring Down Voldemort" 
resistance meeting with the world at stake and we've got a whole slew 
of things we can try to attack this wizard and everything suggested 
one member is just saying is pointless: We can't find anything 
helpful by studying the Dark Arts. Everybody's too dead to bother 
with studying Voldemort's life. Basilisk venom is too hard to get. 
Fiend fire's too dangerous to use. Nobody can ever beat Voldemort in 
a duel. Voldemort's too powerful to stand up to unless you're 
incredibly special. Only the teenager the newspapers are calling the 
Chosen One based on his eighth grade teacher's prophecy and his 
headmaster's expertise sound hopeful.

-m