Who needs Harry? (was: GoF CH 27-29 Post DH look/ Snape and Harry redux)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 182331

> Magpie responded:
> > So nobody could possibly figure out about Horcruxes except 
> Dumbledore, Slughorn...and that one teenager who did find out about 
> Horcruxes without Dumbledore and without any of the advantages 
> Hermione had. So right there in canon is somebody who figured out 
the
> Horcrux idea after Voldemort's rise, and without being Dumbledore. 
> We're not told how Regulus found it out (though if the Blacks have 
> books about Horcruxes obviously British Wizards can have books about
> Horcruxes) but he found out about them somehow--probably without
> looking up the word Horcrux.
> > 
> Carol earlier:
> > I personally think that Regulus finding out about Horcruxes under
> these circumstances is a lot harder to believe than no one else
> knowing about them. If *Snape* didn't know about them, no one 
would. 

Magpie:
And yet it happened. So obviously it could happen, however it 
happened. Every piece of information doesn't have to pass through 
Snape. Maybe Regulus was the only person who tried to do this kind of 
research. Maybe if Snape had stuck with the DEs he would have figured 
it out too and been the one to lead the way in killing Voldemort--
instead he only thought about what Dumbledore told him to think. To 
me it's a perfectly believable turn of events that one not special 
individual who put his mind to it could do something extraordinary. 
It's more inspiring to me, actually, and I think it's the way history 
often works.

 
> > Magpie:
> > And yet Regulus did know about them, so maybe discovering about 
the
> Horcruxes isn't about being the smartest Wizard ever, but just doing
> the right research? As you suggest here, Voldemort didn't tell 
> Regulus he had Horcruxes. The teenager figured it out by himself 
> following whatever clues he followed. 
> >
> Carol again:
> As I said, Regulus figuring out the Horcruxes and having access to
> that information appears to be a Flint (or is at least rather hard 
to
> swallow, requiring a willing suspension of disbelief). I like 
Regulus,
> but he doesn't seem to have been extraordinarily bright. (His 
brother> certainly didn't think so, at any rate.)

Magpie:
You're writing off Regulus discovering about the Horcrux as a flint? 
It's not a flint, it's an important plot point--and it doesn't 
contradict anything in canon. Calling it a flint is like calling Ron 
and Hermione's marriage a flint because obviously nobody could 
believe Hermione would ever marry that guy. You don't have to be 
extraordinarily bright to find out what a Horcrux is. It's not that 
bizarre or sophisticated a concept.

Carol:
> 
> While it's possible that his parents had books with that
> information in the house, which they seem to have inherited from
> Phineas Nigellus, Regulus wouldn't know what he was looking for. 

Magpie:
So maybe he kind of did know what he was looking for, if not by name, 
by some general idea that led to the truth. We don't know whether 
there was something in books in his house inherited from Phineas or 
anybody else. But he certainly found it out and nobody thought this 
was impossible. Maybe Regulus thought in similar ways to Voldemort.

Carol:
But unless he'd heard
> the term "Horcrux," he wouldn't have known where to begin.

Magpie:
Or maybe he did know where to begin without knowing the word Horcrux. 
Maybe you don't have to begin with the word Horcrux to get there. Tom 
Riddle probably didn't. 

Carol:
> But Voldemort's having a Horcrux (Regulus didn't know of any but the
> locket) is not something that an ordinary teenager like him could 
just
> figure out from Voldemort's obsessive behavior and the elaborate 
(and
> horrible) protections that he placed on Slytherin's locket. I'm sure
> that Regulus didn't think: "Oh! He's obsessed with death and he says
> that he's taken measures to prevent it. This object, which he
> obviously values because he's put such horrible protections on it,
> must contain part of his soul!" 

Magpie:
How do you know he couldn't have made that connection? Maybe not all 
at once, of course, but starting with all of this and then 
researching many possibilities regarding objects, especially those 
having to do with Voldemort's other pet obsession? I don't know 
Regulus and I don't know all of his experiences with Voldemort. I 
don't know what kinds of stuff he'd hear discussed throughout his 
life. I certainly don't know if he had ever heard the world Horcrux 
before discovering what one was--he might have gone the other way and 
found the name after the concept. All I know is that he found out 
part of Voldemort's secret as an ordinary teenager apparently all on 
his own, a wonderful example of an ordinary hero that everybody 
dismissed as incapable of anything extraordinary. Sometimes the 
flashy people are just flash. 

Carol:
> No other person lends a House-Elf to help Voldemort and finds the
> House-Elf barely alive after drinking a horrible Potion and 
magically
> escaping the Inferi (and probably no other DE would have cared more
> about the House-Elf's suffering than about LV). Regulus's experience
> is unique. And he, of course, didn't live to tell the tale.

Magpie:
Regulus' experience is unique, yes. But everyone's experiences are 
unique. Other people could have unique experiences that could also 
have led to the truth by a different path. Other people who had 
experiences with Voldemort especially. So yeah, I still think 
intelligent experts who actually put their minds to figuring out 
things that Voldemort might be doing and examined his movements could 
have done it. 

 
> Carol, noting that Regulus knew no more about Horcruxes than any 
other
> Wizard until Kreacher returned from the cave and only "figured it 
out"
> because he, too, possessed information that no one else possessed,
> Kreacher's tale

Magpie, noting that Kreacher's coming back from a cave doesn't 
automatically get Regulus any closer to the concept of a Horcrux than 
he was before and thinking the biggest difference between Regulus and 
everyone else was not that he possessed information that nobody else 
possessed but that he actually thought to use information he 
possessed to make other deductions. Iow, he figured it out--no 
quotations needed. Just like Hermione figured out there was a 
basilisk in the school, that Rita Skeeter was a animagus and that 
Lupin was a werewolf while unthinking Harry and Ron remained 
clueless.