Why should we care if Harry's not really needed? Re: Who needs Harry?

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 182354

> > Betsy Hp:
> > I can suspend disbelief and believe that dragons help guard a bank 
> > run by goblins.  Ask me to believe that a young boy and his plucky 
> > friends can waltz into that bank, steal stuff, and then escape on a 
> > dragon? 
> 
> Pippin:
> Why not? It's an inside job -- could some teenagers break into Fort
> Knox if two of them were prodigies and  they had the help of a former
> employee? No idea, but I do know that Admiral Grace Hopper, the
> inventor of the COBAL computer language, had a crack team of recent
> high school graduates that she used to test proposed government
> software security systems that vendors claimed were unhackable. The
> kids beat them every time. 
> 
>  Or don't you think JKR did enough to establish that Hermione and
> Harry were extraordinarily talented?

Montavilla47:
I think JKR did a good job on establishing Harry as being very talented
(I wouldn't say extraordinarily talented) when he was sufficiently
motivated.  I would say that she did a good job on establishing 
Hermione as smart and extraordinarily talented at book learning.

But, although we did see Hermione adapt a number of spells
(the Proteus spell), I never saw her, Harry, or Ron as a very creative
thinker.  In PS/SS, we had Ron introduced as a strategic thinker
(in his ability to play chess).  But, he never did much thinking
in any of the other books.  So, it's hard to imagine he contributed
much to the planning of either the Ministry break-in or the 
bank heist.  

And, given that Hermione was shown (pre-DH) as someone who
often lost her head in a crisis and couldn't act her way out of a 
brown paper bag, it was believable to me how badly both 
plans went and unbelievable that they were able to get away
both times.

Pippin:
> Of course in a fable  we expect luck to play a part in the hero's
> victory. It's part of the reward for being virtuous. I imagine any
> such story would seem off to someone who didn't like the hero and
> wanted to see him fail. 

Montavilla47:
That's a bit simplistic.  I know that, for myself, I didn't really like
Harry in HBP and DH, but I certainly didn't want him to fail....

Scratch that.  I think I did want him to fail--not in a big way.  I 
certainly didn't want Voldemort to win.  But I did want Harry to 
fail enough so that he re-thought his approach and stopped
being so silly.  I'm thinking specifically of his refusal to accept
help from the many people around him who were *dying* to 
do something useful.  I wanted him to start recognizing that
success depended less on *him* than on the coalition that love
creates.

And, I would have liked him to stop obsessing about Dumbledore's
unenlightened period thinking and focus on the task at hand.

> Betsy HP
> > So my issue with the Voldemort story is that JKR went sloppy.  She 
> > couldn't be bothered to think up a truly formidable villain,
> 
> Pippin:
> The battle in the MoM shows us why no one could capture Voldemort. He
> was not only able to overcome every spell that Dumbledore, using the
> Elder Wand, could throw at him, he could even send Dumbledore's magic
> back at him and make the fire that Dumbledore sent  into a snake that
> attacked Dumbledore. Nor was anyone able to stop Voldemort from
> disapparating when the Ministry wizards arrived.

Montavilla47:
I got the feeling, even as I read OotP, that Dumbledore was holding back
in that duel.  It seemed as though he were trying to contain Voldemort and
protect Voldemort, but not to capture or kill him.

As for disapparating, when did anyone stop anyone from disapparating?

Pippin:
> Voldemort was  able to fight Slughorn, McGonagall and Shacklebolt
> all at once, and none of their spells could even touch him. That's
> enough to  make him a credible supervillain, IMO. He may be out of his
> depth at running an empire, but lots of dictators have had that problem. 

Montavilla47:
It makes him a great duelist, but it takes more than dueling skills to 
be a supervillain.  

Pippin:
> Imagine if Hitler was personally invulnerable, could show up anywhere
> behind enemy lines except in the most hardened locations, could kill
> with unlimited ammunition and could vanish  at will, while preventing
> his victims from doing likewise. 
> 
> In any case, I'm afraid I can't share your  belief that our Muggle
> governments would be able to catch Voldemort -- last I looked at least
> one very prominent terrorist was on the loose.

Montavilla47:
Where is it said that Voldemort kept people from disapparating?  Also,
Hitler was quite formidible without any magic.  What made him so
intimidating was his ability to convince people, who otherwise might
have been quite acceptable morally, to do horrible, inhuman things
to other people.  

With Voldemort, I'm afraid we're asked to believe that "Hitler" is 
both personally invulnerable... hmm... actually, I think Voldemort
started off at a disadvantage when the first thing we learned about
him was that he was almost killed *by a baby.*  It's hard to take
a supervillain seriously after that.

Especially when the next time we see him, he's being stumped by
a mirror and then he's killed again by an eleven-year-old kid.

Pippin:
> As for Harry, he does have an extraordinary talent that most wizards,
> and many real people, don't have -- he can think when he's frightened.
> Most folks freeze up. That's what happens to poor Draco. He's not a
> coward, he's brave enough to get  into situations he knows
> will be dangerous, but then his mind goes blank when he's scared, IMO.
> He's literally  out of his wits.  He can freeze or run away or fight,
> but he can't *reason*. Anybody who's studied hard only to have the
> mind go completely blank at the sight of an examination paper will
> know the feeling.

Montavilla47:
While I agree with you that the ability to think under fire is difficult
for people in real life, in a story it's not that extraordinary.  And even
ordinary people can be conditioned out of their fear.  Isn't that the 
major purpose of military or emergency training?  Or Quidditch 
training for that matter.

Honestly, it just makes Draco seem like a coward when he can't 
think under pressure, rather than making Harry seem extraordinarily
cool.

But, to be fair to JKR, when her POV is stuck on Harry, and he's 
naturally good at thinking in a crisis, it's hard to get across the 
idea that others can't--without making them seem like hysterical
ninnies.  Even Hermione occasionally comes across like that.