ChapDisc: DH 18, The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 182756

Carol earlier:
> <SNIP>
> I think the fact that LV doesn't have this information shows that
there *are* limits, either to Dumbledore's orders or to what Snape is
willing to do or both.
> 
> Their goal is to protect Harry until he can face Voldemort. <snip>
> Naturally, they're not going to give LV information that he doesn't
need just to sustain or increase Snape's credibility. But giving LV
information about a specific plan that LV knows must exist (the blood
protection is about to expire, and Harry has to leave some time before
his seventeenth birthday) is essential if Snape is to become
headmaster and carry out the rest of the plan.
> 
> Giving [LV] specific information about the safe houses is not.
Notice how vague Snape is when LV asks where the Order is going to
hide Harry next. .
> <SNIP>
> At any rate, there are clearly limits on the amount and types of
information that Snape gives LV--only as much as necessary to maintain
the illusion that he is telling LV everything he knows about the
matter at hand.
<SNIP>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, I know that Voldemort does not have that particular
information, but it is not quite my point. My point is that IF the
underlying reason for giving ANY information to Voldemort will be to
improve Snape's standing in Voldemort's eyes, then where do we draw
the line without becoming evil?
> 
> For example, you argued that giving the information about the plan
is essential to Snape becoming the Headmaster, while giving
information about safe houses is not. How so?
<snip>
> 
> What I am trying to say is that I see no difference between giving
one type of info to Voldemort and NOT giving another.
> 
> What I am also saying that personally I do not see any correlation 
between Snape's standing being improved and giving that information. 
<snip>
> 
> What I am saying is that for me to swallow the idea that Dumbledore
is betraying the Order to make sure that Snape is fine and dandy with
Voldemort, there better be some ironclad reason that he is, well not
OR there better be some other reason for Dumbledore doing what he did.
> 
> You also argued that Ginny Weasley is not needed to be bring into
the mix, well sure I agree. But I seem to remember strong agreement on
the list that Snape at least told Voldemort that Sirius is back in 
England (or some other PART of his story, not sure) and again where 
> exactly do we draw the line?
<snip>
> Where exactly we drew the line to decide which innocent lives could
be sacrificed to improve Snape's standing (which I do not see NEEDS
improvement) and which are not?

Carol responds:

How much information to give and what to withhold (where to draw the
line) is a tricky question for any double agent (or triple agent or
whatever Snape is). I'm sure that he tells *Dumbledore* (living or
portrait) everything that he learns from LV and the DEs, but the other
way around is tricky. Snape, pretending to be LV's spy, has to reveal
what appears to be key information or LV will suspect that he's loyal
to DD and kill him. Even after DD's death, it's essential for Snape to
be (or seem to be) LV's right-hand man and *keep* the position he
earned by killing DD. (We can see Yaxley jockeying for that position,
which was Lucius Malfoy's before it was Snape's. Bellatrix, too, wants
LV's approval. Do we want to see *her* as headmistress of Hogwarts?)

With regard to Sirius Black, telling LV that he's back in England
(actually Scotland; Snape sees him at Hogwarts) *seems* to be
important information, but he doesn't at that point know and therefore
can't reveal where Black is hiding. (Nor can he reveal it later when
Sirius is at HQ protected by the Fidelius Charm.) Even Lucius Malfoy's
seeing Black in dog form on Platfrom 9 3/4 (which Snape sneeringly
informs Black about) in no way actually harms Black, except for making
it necessary (in DD's view) for him to stay hidden in 12 GP. Had he
shown up at the MoM to fight without his presence in England being
previously known, Bellatrix would still have recognized "the animagus
black" and would still have fought him. In the long run, Snape's
information made no difference. He only claimed that it did to
convince Bella of his loyalty to LV.

The information Snape gives to LV *seems* important, but it isn't. And
that is what DD trusts Snape to do. "Do not think that I underestimate
the constant danger in which you place yourself, Severus. To give
Voldemort what appears to be valuable information while withholding
the essentials is a job which I would entrust to nobody but you:
(684). And yet not even Snape knows all about Dumbledore's plans. DD
withholds information, chiefly about the Horcruxes, from him, too. 

Snape does not just give Voldemort whatever information is available.
He has to choose carefully which seemingly important bits to reveal.
In the case of the plan to rescue Harry from 4 Privet Drive, he has to
sound (as he is) well-informed and he has to seem to be revealing
everything, which is why DD has him give even the seemingly most
important information, the time and the date. But Snape does not
identify the safe house to which Harry will be going, much less that
there are seven (or eight) such houses. Instead, he says that the safe
house will be so well-protected that they will need to get to Harry
before he reaches the house, a deft move that eliminates the necessity
of revealing the location.

I wouldn't want to be Snape walking on eggshells to avoid revealing
the crucial elements while revealing everything else, nor would I want
to be Dumbledore, ordering him to do so in order to make sure that
Snape is placed in the key position of headmaster, the only person who
can maintain something like order at Hogwarts while having access to
DD's portrait and the Sword of Gryffindor, which only he can deliver
to Harry. He *has* to reveal key information (and even "appear to play
his part" in the chase when it occurs, though Snape, with his new
penchant for saving lives if he can rather than watching people die,
nearly blows his cover with a Sectumsempra intended for a DE's hand).
They are both doing what they can to keep Harry safe through the
Polyjuiced Potters plan, "the only thing that might work" to save what
appears to be Mad-eye's mad plan from disaster.

As for DD "betraying the Order," I think that the DEs would have found
out the date and time in any case by watching the house and would have
touched their Dark marks to summon Voldemort and the other waiting
DEs. Instead, Snape reveals the information in advance to maintain his
crucial position as right-hand man, but conceals the element that he
himself has suggested to Mundungus, the decoys. Mad-eye says much the
same thing: ". . . {Volemort would be mad not to have a Death eater or
two keeping an eye out. . . . [T]hey [the DEs] know the rough position
of the place. Our only chance is to use decoys. Even You-Know-Who
can't split himself into seven" (29-30).

Imagine if they'd tried to escort Harry to a safe house using the same
plan as in OoP, Harry (trunk, Hedwig and all) on a broom with the
guard circling him. The one or two watching DEs wouldn't need Snape's
information about time and place. They'd just summon LV, who'd summon
more DEs, who would have no hesitation about killing Order members,
and Harry would be in danger of being caught in the crossfire.
(Sidenote: If DD could easily send Harry's trunk and Hedwig's cage on
to the Weasleys' house in HBP, why couldn't the Order do the same thing?)

So the plan itself, which must originally have been to get Harry out
of the house early with an Order escort, using brooms rather than a
Ministry-monitored means of transportation, was seriously flawed and
would almost certainly have been disastrous. Portrait!Dumbledore's
Polyjuice plan, passed on to the Confunded Mundungus by Snape, is the
only possible means of preventing that disaster. Snape, on DD's
orders, keeps the decoys and the location of the safe house(s) secret,
but reveals the date and time, which the watching DEs would have
discovered, anyway.

Where is the betrayal? Portrait!DD and Snape, as far as I can see, are
making the best of a very bad situation.

Carol, who doesn't think we can blame Portrait!DD for a faulty plan
that could not have been his or for having Snape reveal what would
have been found out, anyway