James and Sirius - "Coolness"

nirupama76 nirupama76 at yahoo.com
Fri May 2 02:02:37 UTC 2008


No: HPFGUIDX 182765

> > > Barry wrote:
> > > So it depends on what JKR means by 'cool'. 
> > 
> > Carol responded:
> > 
> > <snip> 
> > I wanted to focus on your comment
> > about what JKR thinks is "cool."
> > <snip>
> > 
> > What does JKR think is "cool"?
> > Lupin, IIRC, says that [Sirius] and James were "the height of
> > cool." I don't want to second-guess JKR, but if Lupin is right,
> > if most of the students (except, probably, the Slytherins)
> > regarded a pair of "arrogant little berks" as "cool," their
> > judgment is (IMO) sadly lacking. (I know that Mike disagrees
> > with me; possibly JKR does as well.) <snip>
> 
> Mike:
> You're right on at least one count, I disagree with you about 
James 
> and Sirius. 
> 
> But I don't know about JKR, I don't think she wanted *us* to think 
> James and Sirius were "cool". I think she did her best (mostly in 
> SWM) to demonstrate that the Marauders were arrogant and that at 
> least James and Sirius were bullies. And I don't think JKR likes 
> bullies. I think JKR tried valiantly, though not always 
successfully, 
> to paint Draco as a bully so we would not like him, either. I say 
not 
> successfully because there were a LOT of Draco fans amongst her 
> readership, as there were many (including me) Marauder fans.
> 
> If you don't want to, I'll second-guess JKR on this subject. Sure 
> these guys are arrogant, arrogance is integral to coolness, imo. 
One 
> won't be "the height of cool" unless one is at least slightly 
> arrogant. 
> 
<snip>

Niru writes:

I agree with Mike. "Coolness" as percieved by the average teenager 
does appear to require some arrogance. My belief is that James and 
Sirius *were* actually percieved as "cool" by a majority of the 
student population (not everybody mind you). Reasons: 
(1) They were intelligent. Lupin says in PoA that they were probably 
the most intelligent students in the school. They did manage an 
Animagus transformation on their own and probably contributed at 
least half of the efforts that went into making the Marauder's map.
(2) James was good at Quidditch
(3) Sirius was handsome (and believe me looks will excuse a lot from 
many members of the female population - at least the teenage 
variety).
(4) They probably played some pranks and provided people with a 
laugh (although the targets of the pranks probably weren't laughing 
unless they had a very good sense of humour and the prank wasn't 
terribly degrading).

I'm not excusing the behavior seen in SWM (and for that matter Harry 
himself doesn't) but somehow I don't think they were running around 
bullying everybody left, right, and center all the time.

On the point of them being "not so popular" because of only hanging 
out with each other... I've actually seen this happen a lot. When I 
was in school most of the intelligent/talented kids tended to form 
their own groups and hang out together. They were still popular with 
the rest of the student population but they didn't really let anyone 
into their "inner circle" so to speak.

Mike wrote:
> I look at Lily's recriminations in SWM in a new light after DH. 
She's 
> coming to the defense of her friend, she's throwing everything at 
> James that she can think of. "... hexing who annoys you just 
because 
> you can ..." <SWM, OotP> Well, Lily dear, *anyone can* hex others, 
> you're wizards and witches. And it happens all the time and 
continues 
> to happen in Harry's time at Hogwarts. Also, you don't hex your 
> friends, you hex those that "annoy" you - what's so abominable 
about 
> that? I think Lily's upset because this time it's her pal 
Snivellus. 
> But mostly I discount Lily's strictures because she ended up 
marrying 
> this "arrogant toerag" only a few short years later. How much did 
she 
> believe these recriminations and how much of it was her lashing 
out 
> at the guy that was picking on her friend?

Niru writes:

I don't think Lily's strictures should be discounted. Lily was 
particularly angry in SWM because Snape was the target. However, 
Lily would have come to anyone's defense (or so I think). She ended 
up marrying the "arrogant toerag" because -
(1) he changed. James did deflate his head a bit (as Sirius and 
Remus say in OotP). I read this as "he mellowed and became a bit 
less arrogant and flamboyant". And he probably did this *because* of 
Lily's strictures. He probably realised that if he wanted Lily, he 
needed to change, to "grow up" if you want to see it that way. (This 
is in direct contrast to Snape who ignored Lily's strictures to him 
and ended up losing her and effectively ruined his own life).
(2) she saw beyond the "arrogant toerag" thing and realised that 
James wasn't quite so bad after all. This probably happened after he 
changed though.

Mike wrote:

> Does arrogance define them? I don't think so, I think their 
talents 
> define them. The fact that they could become Animagi at such a 
young 
> age and hide it right under the crooked nose of Albus Dumbledore 
> (read: they did it on their own) when it's supposed to be a 
dangerous 
> transformation if done wrong, speaks to their talents. Their 
talents 
> must be apparent to all the other young wizards. They are above 
> average, maybe way above average, in the one thing that other 
witches 
> and wizards on a whole look up to; magical abilities. That, above 
all 
> else, is what makes them "cool".
> 

Niru writes:

The intention behind why they became animagi is what makes me think 
well of James and Sirius (I will never think well of Peter). They 
did it for Lupin. They did it to ease the pain he was going through. 
They did it to keep him company at his worst moments. They did *not* 
walk away from Lupin when they discovered he was a werewolf. How 
many people would have done that? Certainly not the vast majority of 
the population. This is one of the main reasons that causes me to 
look beyond James and Sirius' arrogance and think that behind the 
struting they were genuinely good people.

<snip>
> Besides, there is one thing that nobody has explained to me that 
> would make me re-evaluate my position on the Marauder's marauding 
> with a werewolf: What about all the other werewolves? They aren't 
> bound up or confined like Lupin was in his Hogwarts days. In fact, 
> the adult Lupin is sent out to spy on them by Dumbledore. What 
does 
> the WW as a whole do about these other werewolves. Are there 
> precautions taken? Don't they know to take these precautions 
during 
> the full moon? How exactly is Lupin's condition different from all 
> the other werewolves that cause him to have to be locked up? Sure, 
he 
> can't be allowed to transform in the dorm. But why does he have to 
be 
> locked up in the Shack when we never hear of any other werewolves 
> having to be locked up on full moon nights?

Niru writes:

I'm interested in how it would cause to re-evaluate your opinion! :) 
I think Remus was sent to the Shack to transform mainly for his 
own "good". (1) Obviously he can't transform in the school. It is 
too dangerous. But he has to close enough so that he leave and be 
back ASAP. (2) He could have been let loose in the forest but I 
guess there's no saying how far he would have gone in wolf form. 
Maybe far enough to make it slightly dangerous to walk back as a 
human. (3) So he shouldn't inadvertently hurt someone. Remus can't 
help himself when he's in wolf form. If he bit someone at that time, 
he couldn't have helped it. But the human Remus would never have 
forgiven himself for something like that.
So did "marauding" negate point (3). Not entirely. It was dangerous 
to go around with a fully-grown werewolf but James and Sirius had 
animagus forms large and powerful enough to control a werewolf. 
Secondly his mind was more human in their comapny. But Remus could 
have got away of course and that's why it was extremely dangerous. 
But they were young and when we are young most of us think we are 
indestructible.

<snip>
> Mike, who will continue to defend his Marauder buddies, cuz JKR 
has 
> allowed me to think of them as real people by transporting me 
> successfully into the Potterverse.

Niru writes:

Yep. Me too. I still don't like what they did in SWM but I think the 
Marauders (bar Peter) were genuinely good people.

- Niru





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