Coolness // Portraits

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 182851

> Pippin:
(regarding Draco's offer of friendship to Harry)
>  JKR shows us that it's easy to reject bad faith when it presents
> itself in such an obvious and unattractive way. Harry is right to
> think that he should tell who the right sort are for himself, and
> right to reject Draco's offer,  but  wrong if he thinks it's always
> going to be that easy.

Montavilla47:
So, does Harry ever figure that out?  The only time I can think 
where Harry ever begins to trust a shady character (except for 
Dumbledore, I suppose), is when he deals with Croody.  But, 
even then Harry views his help with suspicion.  

Is that what the whole angst over Dumbledore is in DH?  Harry
finally having to figure out for himself whether Dumbledore is
the "right sort" or not?

> > Montavilla47:
> > Very interesting insight, Pippin.  And it makes a lot of sense. 
> Except that Harry doesn't really ditch his friends for the Prince's
> book.  He  and Ron remain tight throughout the book and the only
> tension between them comes from Harry's support for Hermione during
> the Ron/Hermione break-up.  
> 
> Pippin:
> No, Harry doesn't drop his friends  but then he wouldn't necessarily
> have dropped Neville and Luna permanently if he'd gone and sat with
> his fan club -- Neville was prepared to be a good sport about it, just
> as Ron was about the book. But the book does distance Ron from Harry 
> -- Ron's got a choice between being a tag-along and finding something
> else to occupy himself  while Harry is spending his free time with the
> book, and Ron chooses Lavender (another vain pursuit.)

Montavilla47:
Um.  Ron's been a tag-along for four-and-a-half books by that point. 
The only point where he wasn't was during GoF when he and Harry were
mad at each other.  He's also had to occupy himself in the past, when
Harry was, for example, spending several hours a week playing 
Quidditch while Ron was yet to make the team.  These things were not
related to the Prince's book.

And Ron's choice of Lavender had nothing to do with the Prince's
book, although you could say it was a vain pursuit...

...Although JKR doesn't seem to view it as such, according to her
remarks on that storyline.  She appears to view it as something 
Ron needs to go through in order to be on the same maturity level
as Harry and Hermione.

> Montavilla:
> > As for Hermione, she's "sniffs" at Harry's use of the book and
> provides  dire warnings about the Prince's character.  Although, of
> course, she  turns out to be right, she's the one who creates any
> distance in her  friendship with Harry, while Harry is running after
> her to comfort her  about Ron, and making sure that she isn't left lonely.
> 
> Pippin:
> Luna would have behaved the same way, IMO, if Harry had decided he
> wanted Romilda's company, and Harry would have been as concerned for
> Luna's loneliness.  

Montavilla47:
That doesn't really sound like Luna to me.  She never seems to care if 
people ditch her--although she's happier than most people allow 
themselves to show when someone does take an interest in her.

I can imagine Hermione or Ginny sniffing  and making remarks (more
catty than dire) if Harry went off with Romilda.  But not Luna.

Nor do I see Harry as being concerned about Luna's loneliness...
ever.  Even though Luna states many times that she doesn't have 
friends.  Except for taking her to Slughorn's party, which Harry does
on the spur of the moment, he doesn't think about her at all 
until she shows up to help during the invasion of Hogwarts.

And then, he merely notes that she and Neville were the only
ones of the D.A. to keep checking their coins, in hopes that 
there would be a message.   I don't think it could be any 
clearer that Harry simply dropped both Neville and Luna
as companions except when he had need of them.


> > Montavilla47:
> > Again, that makes perfect sense, except that Peter and the Prince's 
> > book don't function the same at all.  Peter, as you say, flattered
> > James and Sirius by admiring them.  The Prince, however, doesn't
> > even know that Harry exists, and any affection Harry feels for him
> > is based on what Harry gleans as the Prince's sense of humor,
> > intelligence, and creativity.
> 
> Pippin:
> But the book is the ticket to successful potion-making, praise and
> flattery from Slughorn, and even though Harry knows he doesn't deserve
> it, and tells himself it's only important because he needs to get that
> memory, he still eats it up, and enjoys very much being able to
> outshine Hermione and especially Draco.

Montavilla47:
But he does that long before he even knows that there's a memory
to be gotten.  So, the memory is irrelevant to Harry's use of the 
book.  And my point is that the book isn't flattering Harry at all. 

And, while Harry obviously enjoys the grades and prizes he's getting,
he despises Slughorn's flattery.  I suppose I'm making your case 
here.... because Slughorn is just as silly and unattractive as Romilda
is.  And yet, here is Harry eating up his praise after being explicitly
warned by Dumbledore.

And yet... there is no bad outcome from this for Harry.  His currying
of Slughorn's favor is ultimately good, since it helps him acquire the 
crucial memory.  In no way does Harry's use of the book or 
relationship with Slughorn contribute to the death of Dumbledore
or Draco's success in bringing Death Eaters into the castle.

So, what, exactly is the problem with giving in to Vanity after all?  
The worst that happens because of it is that Hermione gets sniffy
with him and Snape eventually assigns him to detention.  All that
really means is that he loses out on a few hours he could be 
snogging with Ginny.

> > Montavilla47:
> > I would say that of those students you mention, Harry only shows
> > respect for Cedric.  He views Fleur with suspicion or dismissive 
> > humor towards her womanly charms, which are a trap he must avoid 
> > (noting how often Ron falls for them).  Harry admires Krum's playing 
> > skills  during the Quidditch match, but it's Krum that compliments 
> > Harry's  flying skills, while Harry is continually noticing Krum's 
> > clumsiness,  gruffness, and surliness.
> > 
> > And, as for Percy, Harry remarks that Percy had always been his
> > least favorite Weasley, and often notes Percy's stuffy, pompous
> > manner.
> 
> Pippin:
> The scene where Harry looks up (literally) to the Tri-wizard champions
> is canon. As for Percy, Harry's dislike for Percy's manner doesn't
> keep him from feeling that he's been slighted not to be made a prefect
> himself. 

Montavilla47:
I'm not sure which scene you're talking about.  Is it the one where they
get their photographs taken and the reporter is only interested in 
talking to Harry, ignoring the other three?  

Even if Harry physically looks up to the other champions, he only ever
seems to feel emotional/mental respect when Cedric saves him from
the spider.  And he certainly never thinks of any of them as "cool."  
The most he can say for Cedric is that he's decent and honorable,
which are good qualities, but not the same thing.

The moment in which Harry feels slighted for not being made 
prefect is an odd one to me (although it's actually one of the
moments that I really like Harry).   But, even if the position means
something to him, Percy does not.  

So, again, with the exception of the twins, I don't see that Harry
admires or respects any older students, let alone thinking them
"cool."  

> > Montavilla47:
> > No, he [Ron] believed [in elf self-automony]  in practice.  
>> The first time he meets Dobby in 
> > person, he spontaneously gives the elf a Christmas gift, just 
> > because it will please.  In GoF, he tells Hermione that the 
> > relationship  between an elf and her master has to be respected, 
> > no matter politically incorrect it may appear.  In OotP, he goes 
> > around the dorm after Hermione has hidden her hats, uncovering 
> > them so that the elves have a choice about their own destinies.
> 
> Pippin:
> He believed it in practice as long as it wasn't inconvenient for him.
>  He wasn't about to respect Kreacher's choice to hate Muggleborns or
> be loyal to the Black family. And he wanted to respect the Elves'
> choice to remain slaves when he knew it wouldn't cost him anything --
> he was very concerned about Hermione offering the Elves their freedom
> when he thought it would put them off their cooking.
> 
>  That it would be wrong to give the Elves an order they would happily
> obey and which would  be in their interest as well as his own, such as
> fighting for Hogwarts, is not something that would have occurred to
> Ron pre-DH. 

Montavilla47:
By uncovering the hats, Ron was risking his friendship with Hermione. 
That would have cost him something.  Moreover, even when Hermione
is friends, she is apt to punish Ron and Harry by withdrawing her 
study help, so there's plenty Ron was risking giving the elves a choice
at that point. 

As for whether Ron would have respected Kreacher's choice to hate
Muggleborns or loyalty to the Black family... it's not really the 
same thing, is it?  Respecting someone's right to make their 
own decision is not the same as respecting the decision itself.  

We don't have any canon to say whether Ron did or did not
respect Kreacher's loyalty to the Black family.  Since he never
shows disrespect for it, I'm going to assume he did respect it.
However, respecting that loyalty is not the same as condoning
the actions that came of it, which nobody in the Order 
(including Dumbledore) did.

In DH, IIRC, what prompts Ron's comment is not an order for the 
elves to fight.  Harry asks Tonks, Augusta Longbottom, and Ginny 
to leave the Room of Requirement so they can change it to get the 
diadem. As Ginny runs up the stairs, Harry calls after her to come 
back into the room as soon as they are done.

It's at that point that Ron mentions they've forgotten the elves.  Harry
asks if he means that the elves should fight, and Ron corrects him,
saying that the elves should be *warned* so that there wouldn't be 
"any more Dobbies."

My contention is that this concern is perfectly in line with the Ron
who offered his Christmas jumper to Dobby and threw in a pair
of socks as well.  This is in line with the Ron who uncovered the
hats so that the elves could decide for themselves whether they
wanted freedom (whether or not that freedom meant a less
convenient dinner service at Hogwarts).  It's in line with the Ron
who notices the efficiency of the elves and compliments them on
their service.

It's Hermione who goes from trying to impose her ideas of 
freedom on the elves to suggesting that they be treated kindly.
Ron was treating the elves kindly three years earlier.  


> Montavilla:
> 
> > 
> > In terms of Neville:
> <snip>
> > 
> > So, when Harry decides to sit with Neville and Luna at the
> > beginning of HBP, instead of going off with the unattractive,
> > pushy, unpleasant stranger, it's such a no-brainer that it 
> > hardly counts as a moral message--and yet there seems to
> > be no other reason for that moment to exist.
> 
> Pippin:
> Yet all of that stuff about Neville didn't keep Harry from feeling
> embarrassed in OOP when Neville was going on about his pet plant and
> covering people with stinksap. 

Montavilla47:
I know.  But that only makes me think that Harry was a bit 
short on the uptake about Neville's good points prior to HBP.
When Harry was so embarrassed about being seen with Neville, I 
was frankly a bit embarrassed for Harry being such a snob--
and I choose to believe that it's excuseable because Harry has
a crush on Cho and naturally wants to impress her.

Pippin:
>Yes, Harry already knew that Neville
> was brave, but it still bothered him that Neville was overweight and
> dorky. The moment is there to show us that Harry has internalized what
> Dumbledore was trying to tell him, that bravery is more important, and
> cooler, than having the coolest pets or being good looking or having a
> following of silly fangirls like Romilda. (Although, to give Romilda
> her due, I don't think she realized that it was Neville Longbottom's
> bottom she was looking at or recognized Luna behind the spectrespecs.
> She, unlike Draco, is embarrassed when she realizes that she's
> insulted Harry's friends.  )

Montavilla47:
But, if that's the moment is there for (in addition, I assume to what
you earlier pointed out as its function of giving Harry an easy choice
to be followed up a more difficult one), then it would help to make
Romilda Vane someone who has *anything* to offer Harry in terms
of good company, social status, or general "coolness."

She has no cool pet.  She isn't good-looking.  She isn't older.
She may or may not be popular,  but if she is popular, it's with people
Harry barely notices (and that with contempt).

Pippin:
> I don't think, BTW, that Draco was offering to become a Harry fanboy
> --I think he envisioned himself as Harry's patron and protector, as
> his father had been for Snape.  

Montavilla47:
At least that would be something Harry might actually want from
a friend at that point in his life.  Romilda has nothing to offer 
Harry.

> Pippin:
> I think JKR borrows from the form of the morality play partly to
> deconstruct it. Just as the world is too complex to divide into good
> people and Death Eaters, the human character is too complex to divide
> into vices and virtues. There *is* good and evil, but IMO, JKR thinks
> that grown ups ought to sort them out for themselves, not rely on
> convenient labels, even hers.

Montavilla47:
If that is indeed her intention, then she succeeded with me, because
I can't take any of her labels for granted.  Even Dumbledore, who was
presented as the "epitome of goodness" ended the series looking to
like a cruel and manipulative character.  Oddly enough, though, that
didn't come from his tragic backstory and flirtation with Grindelwald.
It came from the events in DH and the Prince's tale, and the knowledge
that he lied to Harry (and others) several times throughout the books.

Pippin:
> I wouldn't weep too much for the loss of the Prince's notes. In  my
> experience, people with a habit of scribbling in the margins do not
> confine their attentions to just one text. If the potions book had
> reams about potions with the occasional charm or hex thrown in, what
> would Snape's DADA texts look like?  Snape had that whole
> library at Spinner's End, which would fall by wizarding law into the
> hands of the Ministry. Wonder what they made of it?

Montavilla47:
Unless Snape left a will.  I wonder who he left the books to?