Did Harry Notice?

[jkoney65]

No: HPFGUIDX 182874

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Mike quoted:
> >
> > "... pulled out the wand beneath his cloak and pointed it at the 
> door, which burst open."
> > "He was over the threshold as James came sprinting into the hall. 
It
> was easy, too easy, he had not even picked up his wand...."
> > ....
> > Hold him off, without a wand in his hand!..."
> > ....
> > "She had no wand upon her either.... How stupid they were, and 
how 
> trusting, thinking that their safety lay in friends, that weapons 
> could be discarded even for moments...."
> > <DH pp. 343-4, US Ed.>
> 
> Mike commented: 
> > So maybe JKR wanted to make a point; James and Lily were *too* 
> trusting of friendship, loyalty, courage, and those things that they
> themselves  seemed to be born with. Was this a logical way to make 
> that point? IMO, no. 
> > 
> > I can't see James, who moments before was entertaining Harry with
> his wand and had just dropped it on the sofa he was sitting on,
> respond to the door bursting open without snatching up his wand. 
<snip>
> > 
> > After the things Voldemort had told Harry about his dad in PS/SS 
and
> in the graveyard of GoF, we and Harry were under the impression that
> James had put up a *good* fight, or at least had represented 
himself 
> well. I don't see how standing in front of Voldemort, wandless, 
> waiting to be AKed can be construed, as Voldemort himself said in 
PS:
> "Yes, boy, your parents were brave... I killed your father first, 
> > and he put up a courageous fight..." <SS p.294, US> OK, brave, 
umm 
> > yeah, I can see that. A kind of thoughtless bravery. But "put up 
a 
> > courageous fight"? How? With what?


Jack-A-Roe:
I think part of the problem with the scene is that we don't know the 
layout of the rooms. Voldemort can see them through the window as 
he's walking up the path. He can see them so well he can see James 
throw his wand down on the sofa. Voldemort pushes open the gate pulls 
his wand and blasts open the door. James has to sprint to the hall. 
How big is the cottage? If it so big that James has to sprint, 
Voldemorts angle as he approached the house should have cut down his 
view. If it is smaller (like I think) than James probably only had to 
take a couple of steps to see into the hall. 

We aren't told what James is doing as he yells. Is he trying to dive 
back into the other room for his wand (which was my initial thought 
as I read the scene) or is he continuing in a bull rush to try and 
tackle Voldemort. 

Why did James go without his wand? Probably because he was startled 
and wanted to see what it was. I'm sure he realized he was without 
his wand by his second or third step. By then (if it's a small house) 
he was already in the hallway.

The viewpoint is Voldemorts. So we are going to get his perspective 
on things and we can't completely trust it anymore than we can 
believe the Harry filter or Snape's cherry picked memories. They are 
all true to that person but probably not the entire truth. (Which I 
think is what Steve has mentioned)

Voldemort calls him brave and courageous because he didn't quit. He 
didn't drop to his knees begging for mercy. The last words James 
spoke were a challenge: "I'll hold him off."


> 
> Carol responds:
> snip>
> This
> moment of bravely standing up to Voldemort, of "holding him off," is
> supposed to be James's moment, when he ceases to be an "arrogant 
berk"
> and a bully and becomes the hero everyone--not just Voldemort, who
> could be lying--remembers him as being. And he's reduced to shouting
> that he'll hold Voldemort of and then dropping dead? Why would JKR
> write it this way, especially given that a lot of readers, including
> me, needed a reason to change our minds about James, and all we get 
is
> him playing with his baby son and throwing his wand on the sofa as
> Voldemort bursts in? 

Jack-A-Roe:
I don't understand why James needed redeeming. We saw him act like 
and were told that he acted like a teenage boy when he was a young 
teenage boy. Part of the problem is that we are adults looking at the 
actions of a teenage boy. Things you do then seem incredibly stupid 
or silly after you've aged/matured. I know I did stupid things (may 
have even owned some parachute pants, etc in the 80's), um, many 
stupid things that I look back at now and wonder what the heck I was 
thinking. I don't consider myself a bad human being. Then again that 
is my perspective on things.

James, off page, redeemed himself enough that he got the girl he 
wanted and also became head boy. Since that really only leaves him 
his 6th year to redeem himself, he must not have been as bad during 
the first 5 years as people are trying to make him out. Otherwise one 
year of good behavior wouldn't have earned him the head boy badge.



> Carol responds:
>> Maybe what mattered to Harry in that memory was his father playing
> with Baby!Harry and showing him the pretty lights from his wand. At
> any rate, Harry has no hesitation later in summoning up his father 
as
> one of the loved ones he's about to join when he uses the 
Resurrection
> Stone later. 


Jack-A-Roe:
I think the scene with the baby Harry was there to show Harry and the 
rest of us that James and Lilly did actually love each other. If I 
remember correctly Harry was worried that they didn't love each other 
after he saw SWM.


> Mike:
> But how could it not matter? And how could James be credited by
> Voldemort himself with putting up *any* fight? Is this bad writing,
> forgeting the previous backstory given us, or am I missing 
something?


Jack-A-Roe:
I think JKR wanted to say that courage and bravery don't necissarily 
mean that you have to cast a dozen spells. Just the fact that he was 
still going to try and fight unarmed was enough.

Personally I really wanted to see James at least get off a few 
curses, but it wasn't meant to be.

Jack-A-Roe, who is back again and hopes make some more consistant 
appearances.