Did Harry Notice?

[jkoney65]

No: HPFGUIDX 182888

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Jack-A-Roe:
> <snip>
> > 
> > The viewpoint is Voldemorts. So we are going to get his 
perspective
> on things and we can't completely trust it anymore than we can 
> believe the Harry filter or Snape's cherry picked memories. They 
are 
> > all true to that person but probably not the entire truth. (Which 
I 
> > think is what Steve has mentioned)
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Actually, we know that the Pensieve memories are accurate. The only
> perspective that distorts them at all is not snape's but Harry's. 
(To
> be sure, Snape has chosen the memories that suit his purpose, but
> there's no point in delaying Harry by giving him irrelevant ones.)
> Snape's memories, unlike this one of Voldemort's are objective 
records
> in which we see him from the outside. Our only indication of his
> thoughts and feelings is his words, actions, and facial expressions.
> Dumbledore's memories--and Hokey's and Morfin's and Bob Ogden's--are
> all exactly as they happened, seen from the outside. The only 
example
> we have of an altered Pensieve memory is Slughorn's, and the
> alterations are obvious to anyone except Harry, who wonders what the
> fog was.

> Voldemort's memory is different from the Pensieve memories in being
> from his own perspective, but it's so detailed that I think it is 
also
> intended to be accurate. (For one thing, it's the only description 
we
> get of the events at Godric's Hollow. The subjective element comes 
in
> when we get his decision not to kill the little boy he scares (his
> thoughts at the moment that it happened, not his interpretation 
after
> the fact), hi view of James as foolish and trusting (the reader is
> free to agree or disagree), and so forth. 
<large snip>

Jack-A-Roe
I apologize for not making myself clearer. I agree that the pensieve 
shows us things as accurate. What I was saying about Snape's memories 
are that he chose them. It wasn't only for lack of time. We don't get 
to see the memories that Lily had to defend him from time and again. 
We are told that the people he hangs around with are borderline dark. 
Are we supposed to assume that Snape wasn't participating at all? 
Lily already tells us no, that she has made excuses for him. Without 
descriptions we don't get to see what had been building between the 
two until the final SWM.

Voldemort's viewpoint is subjective and tells us that James is 
foolish and while the reader may agree or disagree they aren't really 
given the chance. Voldemort surprises them in their safe house, which 
is protected by one of their best friends, and kills James before he 
can defend himself. James is made to look foolish because startled he 
goes to see what the problem is, and as I mentioned probably realized 
that he didn't have his wand a second too late (assuming that the 
house is as small as I think). If I put myself in that position, I 
know my first thought would be to see what is going on (it is 
Halloween) before going and getting my Browning.

 
> > Jack-A-Roe:
> > I don't understand why James needed redeeming. We saw him act like
> and were told that he acted like a teenage boy when he was a young
> teenage boy. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> Maybe for you he doesn't. But some of us wanted to see something of
> James beyond the arrogant bullying toerag, to use Lily's name for 
him.
> We wanted to see the brave and powerful James that we'd been led to
> expect from the moment that Hagrid and McGonagall mourned him and 
Lily
> in SS/PS. We saw a talented boy who became an Animagus and helped to
> create the Marauder's Map, we (barely) glimpsed the young father
> playing with his baby son, but we never saw the Order member doing
> anything important to help save the WW, never saw him putting up the
> courageous fight that Voldemort claimed he had done, never saw him
> casting so much as a Stupefy in his family's defense. Instead, he
> carelessly tosses his wand on the sofa, trusting to the Fidelius 
Charm
> and Peter Pettigrew. It's sad, or it would be if I liked James, but 
it
> isn't tragic or heroic. And, for me and readers like me, it doesn't
> take away the bad taste left by SWM. The arrogant teenage bully, who
> torments Severus Snape *after* rescuing him from the werewolf,
> transforms offstage into the nice but overly trusting young father.
> And Hero!James is reduced to a vain (in the sense of futile) boast
> "I'll hold him off!" and the advice to Lily to take Harry and run.
> Just where she's supposed to run with no wand and no Invisibility
> Cloak, I don't know. She, too, has trusted to the Fidelius Charm and
> Peter. At least, thanks to Snape, she has a chance to live, giving 
her
> sacrifice meaning. James's death is just a death, over as quickly as
> Cedric Diggory's when Fetal!mort tells Wormtail to "Kill the spare!"
> 
> Maybe you don't find it disappointing. I wanted James to really be a
> hero, to really be all that Hagrid and Sirius and Lupin painted him 
as
> being. All I see is a clever boy who liked risks, was good at
> Quidditch, had an extremely high opinion of himself, genuinely liked
> Sirius because they were so much alike, tolerated Wormtail because 
he
> fawned on him, thought that Remus Lupin was "cool" solely because he
> was a werewolf, and hexed people who annoyed him, was always in
> detention, and attacked Severus Snape (whom he viewed as an instant
> enemy simply because Severus wanted to be sorted into slytherin) two
> on one with Sirius with no provocation. In short, he gives Percy
> competetion in the Big Head Boy department and the Twins competition
> in the troublemaker department and Sirius Black competition in the
> risk-taking department (though I think that Sirius wins that one) 
and
> Dudley and Draco competition in the bullying department.
> 
> Yes, he's a kid, but he's not a kid that I find admirable. I was
> hoping to find a (very young) man to take his place and win my
> affection as the "arrogant little berk" did not. And, unfortunately
> for my hopes and expectations, that brave young man who courageously
> fought Voldemort to give his wife time did not materialize.
> 
> I can't convince you to see him as I see him, but, as LV says in 
GoF,
> "I confess myself--disappointed."
> 
> In James only, BTW. Otherwise, I thought that the Godric's Hollow
> flashback, even with the confusion of viewpoints and of past and
> present near the end, was brilliantly written and imagined, down to
> the smallest detail.
> 
> Carol, wondering whether James's blind trust in the fawning but
> faithless Wormtail is intended as a contrast to Dumbledore's trust 
in
> Snape, which had a firm foundation in more than Snape's love of Lily
>

Jack-A-Roe:
I was highly disappointed that James didn't get to fight with 
Voldemort because it would have made his death seem that much more 
heroic. 

I think part of the problem that people have with James is how he was 
presented. It's like a movie that start's with the ending. We are 
told by everyone what a great guy James is, etc., etc. Then we only 
get to see the parts that take away his sainthood. We never get to 
see the parts that build him up (other than saving a snooping Snape) 
so we are left feeling down on him. Although, almost all of the 
negative thoughts of James come from Snape. 

When it comes down to it, James defied Voldemort three times as we 
are told in the prophecy. James rescued Snape (although he was 
probably also trying to protect Lupin/Sirius from the ramifications. 
Yet when the situation is turned around, Snape only tries to protect 
Lily and it's Dumbledore who tells him that he is disgusting. James 
did those things before he died (age 21?). Imagine what else he could 
have done if he had lived.

I agree that the scene in Godric's Hollow was well done and the 
question of trust does puzzle me. Is JKR saying you should only trust 
someone if you have proof. That seems to go against the very nature 
of the term trust.

Jack-A-Roe