Did Harry Notice?

[jkoney65]

No: HPFGUIDX 182896

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
> Carol responds:
> True, it wasn't *just* lack of time though tiem was limited. Snape
> could only select those memories that served his purpose, which was 
to
> establish his own trustworthiness so that he could convery the 
message
> that would send Harry to sacrifice himself. 


Jack-A-Roe:
Thank you. Originally I was just pointing out that Snape's memories 
were selected to what best "served his purpose."

Carol:
He does not come across as
> wholly innocent in those memories (though I do think he comes across
> as sympathetic and Harry empathizes with him for a number of 
reasons);
> memories that showed him in a wholly bad light would defeat his
> purpose. He *does* show himself as not only a Death Eater but the
> eavesdropper who had told LV the Prophecy, and what, in Harry's 
eyes,
> could be worse than that?

Jack-A-Roe:
While the pensieve shows the actual scene, you are right in that he 
chose memories that were sympathetic to his actions because they 
served his purpose.


> 
> If you mean that we never get James's side of the story, we see him
> entirely objectively in SWM (the only interpretations are Harry's; 
the
> scene is presented as it happened--and it happened *after* James's
> rescue of Severus from werewolf!Remus--which was motivated, as you
> say, more by a desire to keep his friends out of trouble than to 
save
> Severus's life.
> 
> We don't have James's or Lily's memories. We never get to see 
Remus's
> or Sirius's before they die. <snip>


Jack-A-Roe:
I find myself agreeing again that the SWM is Snape's memory and the 
problem is that we don't get to see James from another viewpoint. 
That was the point I was originally making (we really only see 
memories from Snape, who as you said doesn't have any/many good 
memories of James) although it appears I didn't present it well 
enough.


> Jack-A-roe:
> Voldemort surprises them in their safe house, which is protected by
> one of their best friends, and kills James before he can defend 
himself. 
> 
> Carol:
> "Fictional fact," right?

Jack-A-Roe:
Sorry but I'm not sure what you mean by fictional fact.


<snip> 
> Carol responds:
> I don't see the relevance of the size of the house though I believe
> that it's referred to at some point as a cottage. 

Jack-A-Roe:
The size of the house is only important to me because it helps 
analyze what James did. We are told he "came sprinting into the 
hall." Sprinting conjures up the image of someone who came a great 
distance to me. If it was a great distance he should have gone back 
for his wand the moment he realized he didn't have it. Whereas if it 
was only a few steps he would be in the hall about the time he 
realized he didn't have his wand. As I said it probably only means 
something to me (I've probably watched to much CSI) because I want to 
know why James came into the hall unarmed. The first way doesn't make 
any sense as I look at it. The second way makes sense to me, even if 
it is still a sad ending.


> 
 
> Carol:
> But we're not told how. And Lily and the Longottoms also defied
> Voldemort three times. I'd say that Gideon and Fabian Prewett defied
> him twice, the second time fatally. And they weren't alone. We just
> have to take James's defiance on faith. And that, too, is
> disappointing. As I said, I wanted him to redeem himself, to be
> *shown* as something other than an arrogant bully. I wanted to have 
a
> reason to forgive him or even like him. And the vague "defying
> Voldemort three times" doesn't do that for me.
> 

Jack-A-Roe:
So it seems to me that our basic difference is that in order for 
James to be redeemed you needed to see it happen while I accept the 
general theme presented to us early in the series that James was a 
good guy, who once his ego was deflated turned out fine. 


> 


> Jack-A-Roe:
> > Yet when the situation is turned around, Snape only tries to 
protect
> Lily and it's Dumbledore who tells him that he is disgusting. 
> 
> Carol:
> Interesting comparison, although I'm not quite sure that I see your
> point in making it. And not one of my favoorite Dumbledore moments.
> Snape does, however, beg DD to protect them all. He's not in a
> position to rescue Lily himself, but he believes that Dumbledore 
can,
> and he shows himself willing to do "anything" to bring that about. 
and
> he continues to do it so that Lily won't have died in vain after 
DD's
> attempts to protect her fail. (Not DD's fault, but I don't want to
> talk about the Secret Keeper change at this point.)


Jack-A-Roe:
My point was that James saved everyone while Snape only wanted to 
save Lily. Even after he had been admonished by Dumbledore he 
says "Keep her -- them -- safe." His first instinct was still only 
her, then realizing that wasn't the best way to convince Dumbledore 
he changed it to them.


Jack-A-Roe, who loves reading Carol's view of things even if we don't 
totally agree.