Magical Contracts and Ancient Magic

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 182975

---  "Mike" <mcrudele78 at ...> wrote:

bboyminn:

Your throwing out the bait, but no one seems to be biting, so
I'll address a couple of minor points.

>
> ...
>
>
> Mike: 
> 
> Also, in both cases there seems to be a verbal contract in the 
> offing. Lily offered her life "instead" of Harry's. Voldemort 
> offers to cease the battle, not have any more of Harry's 
> friends "die for you" if Harry gives himself up. The fact 
> that Voldemort intends to kill Harry is so heavily implied 
> that there can be no doubt as to what the verbal contract is 
> demanding of Harry and therefore what Voldemort is conceding
> in exchange.
> 
> The theme of "choice" runs heavy through the series. There is
> no doubt in my mind that the choice to sacrifice oneself in 
> defense of others commands access to the ultimate magical 
> force in the WW. But surely, somewhere, sometime, someone has
> offered his/her life to protect someone else, thereby 
> voluntarily sacrificing their life. So why didn't this 
> "Ancient Magic" ever activate before?
> 
> This is a magical world and we are talking about ancient magic.
> It seems reasonable that the presence of a magical contract 
> (also a recurring theme, from the Fidelius to the Unbreakable 
> Vow), would be a necessary ingredient to activate this ancient 
> magic.
> 

bboyminn:

Certainly, similar invocations of Ancient Magic have occurred
before, but the big question is, were they ever tested?

Voldemort invoked the ancient magic when he killed Lily under
very specific circumstances, but what if he had not subsequently
tried to kill Harry? Would anyone know about the ancient 
protective magic? Or in the case of Voldemort killing Harry
in the forest, what if he had just walked away afterwards? 
Again, what if after the fact, he was not in a position to
tempt or demonstrate the results of his action?

In this case, I'm using Lily and Harry as metaphors, but again
in other cases, it is possible that the magic was invoked but
never tested. Also, note that for the most part, the protective
magic is somewhat specific. If Lucius had stepped into the 
room right after Voldemort killed Lily and Lucius had tried to
kill Harry, likely he would have succeeded. In that specific
case, it seems like Harry is only protected from Voldemort.

In the scene where Harry dies, again as you point out, 
Voldemort's minor spells aren't 'binding', they don't seem
to hold for every long. But also note that many people die 
in the final scene before Harry and Voldemort face off. So,
some protection exists, but it is not complete and all-
inclusive. 

As to the likelihood of an magical contract, I think in Lily's
case, she /proposed/ a contract, but Voldemort didn't accept.
In the later case of Voldemort killing Harry, it seems far
more likely that Voldemort proposed a contract and that
Harry accepted it. His acceptance might have sealed the deal.
It might have given force to that situation that came from
another source in Lily's case. 

But now we must ask, is every verbal agreement in the form
of a simple statement, magically binding? Certainly people
make vaguely contractual statements in common everyday 
conversation. Are those casual statements bonded and sealed
by the fact that magical people are making them? It would 
seem to me NO. You can have the full force of law, or in this
case magic, tied to every casual statement you make. There
has to be something real and significant at stake to be 
serious enough to invoke that ancient magic; at least in my
mind it does.

> Mike: 
> 
> ...
> 
> Most of you know I'm not a fan of interviews. Nor do I put 
> too much stock in authorial intent unless s/he has made that
> intent clear in the text. Through her interviews, I know that
> JKR *intended* to give Lily the choice, that being the key 
> ingredient as to why the AK rebounded and Harry lived. And 
> though she tried to hide why Lily was given that choice, she
> never hid Lily's pleading to "kill me instead". JKR may not 
> have thought of Lily's pleading as a magical contract, but 
> putting it in context with the other themes and motifs 
> of the series it reads like a magical contract to me.
> 
> Mike
>

bboyminn:

I think likely other people and parents have died trying to
protect their children or to protect others, so very much I
think that Voldemort offered Lily a choice plays a huge 
role. However, it would seem that in most cases, when bad 
guys attack, they intend to kill everybody. They might kill
the kids first to torture the parents, and the parents might
plead 'kill me instead' but likely they were always going to
be killed. So, I think there is some weight given to the 
fact that Voldemort really would have killed Harry then just
walked away leaving Lily broken but alive.

My point is that simple self-sacrifice, or offering to die
instead, is not enough. There has to be the very real 
prospect that you will live if you yield to the bad guy, and
it can't just be a random chance of living either. For 
example, I suspect it was common practice for DE's to leave
someone alive at the end to tell the terrible and sorted
tale of the ruthlessness and brutality of the DE's as a way
of warning other people not to resist them. In a sense, 
leaving someone to tell the tale enhances your reputation for
brutality not for your seeming mercy. But the fact that you
would be the one person to live would be purely random; it 
wouldn't be a choice even if you made the offer.

So, when all things are considered, Lily's case was very
unique and special. I don't think those specific combinations
of circumstances occurs all that often. 

For what it's worth.

Steve/bboyminn