From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Nov 1 18:12:10 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 18:12:10 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184786 > Montavilla47: > I'm not sure what you mean by Dumbledore's efforts to reform the > Ministry. I didn't see him ever make any effort in that regard. Pippin: He was head of the Wizengamot, an advocate for Muggle rights, tried to prevent miscarriages of justice, and discouraged the use of dementors. A Ministry of Magic dedicated to democratic process rather than one man rule, concerned about justice rather than image, protective of Muggles and not dependent on dementors could only have been more resistant to Voldemort's influence. Montavilla: > Perhaps Dumbledore saw the overtures to the giants and werewolves > as long shots, but I certainly didn't get that impression in GoF. Pippin: The object in GoF was to get the *Ministry* to make overtures to the Giants. That would have been vastly different to Hagrid and Maxime on their own. At the very least, Hagrid and Maxime could have arrived much sooner than the DE's if they'd been allowed to use magic to travel and didn't need to detour to disguise their purpose. Whether the Giants are stupid and ungovernable when they have sufficient resources for their needs and aren't engaged in a brutal civil war, is hard to say. If Grawp is a fair example, they're not. He was able to acquire a foreign language and civilized manners as an adult, despite what seems to have been a feral upbringing -- that shows intelligence and an ability to adapt, IMO. Montavilla: > Okay. How exactly would one of those long shots have prevented > Voldemort's takeover? How would they have made a darn bit of > difference? The giants were stupid and unable to organize into > any effective political or fighting force. The only werewolf we ever saw (apart from Lupin and the guy he visited in St. Mungo's) was > Fenrir Greyback. It's pretty obvious he'd stick with Voldemort > no matter what the other werewolves did, and we don't see any > other werewolves fighting for either side. > > Nor, if the werewolves had come over to the Ministry (we don't > actually know if they did or not), could they have been particularly > effective--unless they were sent to eat Death Eaters or something. Pippin: At the end of GoF, Voldemort's forces consisted of thirty or so press-ganged wizards whose allegiance Voldemort himself considered to be extremely shaky, and who were just as frightened of Giants as other wizards are. If the Ministry had taken the news of Voldemort's return seriously, if it had sought evidence against those whom Harry identified as DE's, if it had dismissed the dementors and let Azkaban be guarded by loyal Giants instead, who knows what would have happened? If wizards had actually known anything about werewolves, they might have realized there was not much reason to fear Fenrir more than Voldemort's other thugs, when it wasn't full moon. In any case Fenrir could only be in one place at a time. But the fear of werewolves could be everywhere. > > Montavilla47: > When did Lupin give up? I saw him complaining about his assignment, > but I never saw him give it up. Pippin: "I cannot pretend that my particular brand of reasoned argument is making much headway against Greyback's insistence that we werewolves deserve blood, that we ought to revenge ourselves on normal people." -HBP 16 That's a prediction of failure, and Lupin's presence at the Weasleys and later at Hogwarts confirms that he's come in from the cold. Pippin: > > Plotwise, of course, JKR needed a way to keep Hagrid and Lupin > > offstage for long periods but still available for their parts in the last book. > > Montavilla47: > I have to disagree with even this statement. The only time JKR > *needed* Hagrid offstage was when Harry arrived late at Hogwarts. > (If Hagrid hadn't been visiting his brother, he could just as easily have been busy escorting the firsties across the lake at that moment. And, by the way, I wonder who got stuck with that job in HBP?) Pippin: JKR needed Hagrid offstage in OOP so that Harry could feel abandoned at Hogwarts, and so that Umbridge could have a free rein. I don't suppose Hagrid would have taken kindly to finding out that Harry was getting words carved on his hand, whatever Dumbledore and McGonagall said. In HBP, I assume that Hagrid escorted the firsties, turned them over to McGonagall at the door as usual, then went to see his brother during the Sorting. He thus arrived a few minutes late for the feast, which didn't start until the Sorting was finished. Montavilla: > The obsession with Lupin's activities was more likely fueled by > the idea (planted by that ending scene in GoF) that the werewolves > were ZOMG IMPORTANT! Pippin: Huh? IIRC, there wasn't anything about overtures to the werewolves in GoF. Sirius was told to hole up with Lupin. Obviously Lupin was not engaged in a secret mission to the werewolves at that time. There was a throwaway line in OOP about Lupin's mysterious missions, but we didn't find out what he was up to until HBP, when he filled us in, but also let us know he wasn't getting anywhere. JKR is of course not responsible for wild speculation about Lupin's role . Pippin From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 1 20:36:31 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 20:36:31 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184787 > > Montavilla47: > > I'm not sure what you mean by Dumbledore's efforts to reform the > > Ministry. I didn't see him ever make any effort in that regard. > > Pippin: > He was head of the Wizengamot, an advocate for Muggle rights, tried to > prevent miscarriages of justice, and discouraged the use of dementors. Montavilla47: Yes, but none of those things has to do with reforming the Ministry itself. The first is just a title, and the second two have to are really more him voicing his opinions about certain policies than actively working on changing the system. Pippin: > A Ministry of Magic dedicated to democratic process rather than one > man rule, concerned about justice rather than image, protective of > Muggles and not dependent on dementors could only have been more > resistant to Voldemort's influence. Montavilla47: Yes. It would have been nice if Dumbledore had pushed for a more democratic process and a more rigorous system of justice. But I don't see him make any serious efforts in terms of justice and I certainly never see him even advocate a more democratic process-- if by "democratic" you mean holding elections to determine the leaders in Ministry. > Montavilla: > > Perhaps Dumbledore saw the overtures to the giants and werewolves > > as long shots, but I certainly didn't get that impression in GoF. > > Pippin: > The object in GoF was to get the *Ministry* to make overtures to the > Giants. That would have been vastly different to Hagrid > and Maxime on their own. At the very least, Hagrid and Maxime could > have arrived much sooner than the DE's if they'd been allowed to use > magic to travel and didn't need to detour to disguise their purpose. > > Whether the Giants are stupid and ungovernable when they have > sufficient resources for their needs and aren't engaged in a brutal > civil war, is hard to say. If Grawp is a fair example, they're not. He > was able to acquire a foreign language and civilized manners as an > adult, despite what seems to have been a feral upbringing -- that > shows intelligence and an ability to adapt, IMO. Montavilla47: But whether or not they intelligent in another context, they *aren't* in another situation. They are in the situation that JKR created for them, which is one that makes them basically useless to either side. Which is only a problem when you set them up to be important as either allies or enemies. Because that sets up an expectation in the reader's mind. We can't really be expected to read that scene in GoF and say to ourselves, "Hmm. Dumbledore seems to think that this is important, but I think I'll wait and see what happens before I get too excited about Hagrid leaving on his dangerous mission." I mean, if JKR wants us to end up thinking that Fudge was right in this moment and that Dumbledore was being an alarmist, then I guess she succeeded. But I doubt that that was the intent. > Montavilla: > > Okay. How exactly would one of those long shots have prevented > > Voldemort's takeover? How would they have made a darn bit of > > difference? The giants were stupid and unable to organize into > > any effective political or fighting force. The only werewolf we > ever saw (apart from Lupin and the guy he visited in St. Mungo's) was > > Fenrir Greyback. It's pretty obvious he'd stick with Voldemort > > no matter what the other werewolves did, and we don't see any > > other werewolves fighting for either side. > > > > Nor, if the werewolves had come over to the Ministry (we don't > > actually know if they did or not), could they have been particularly > > effective--unless they were sent to eat Death Eaters or something. > > Pippin: > At the end of GoF, Voldemort's forces consisted of thirty or so > press-ganged wizards whose allegiance Voldemort himself considered to > be extremely shaky, and who were just as frightened of Giants as > other wizards are. If the Ministry had taken the news of Voldemort's > return seriously, if it had sought evidence against those whom Harry > identified as DE's, if it had dismissed the dementors and let Azkaban > be guarded by loyal Giants instead, who knows what would have happened? Montavilla47: Heh. Isn't it odd that Dumbledore doesn't press Fudge to actually investigate Cedric's death and the Death Eaters that Harry names? I mean, do you really think that if the giants had decided to side with the Ministry that the Death Eaters would have decided to take off their masks and repudiate Voldemort? Because it seems like the best scenario for the Dumbledore side would simply have been for the giants to stay where they were without getting involved at all. On the other hand, the Ministry actually investigating Cedric's death might have accomplished something. Such as putting several Death Eaters in prison. Pippin: > If wizards had actually known anything about werewolves, they might > have realized there was not much reason to fear Fenrir more than > Voldemort's other thugs, when it wasn't full moon. In any case Fenrir > could only be in one place at a time. But the fear of werewolves could > be everywhere. Montavilla47: In which case, an educational push might have been very effective. I used to think that Lupin was originally part of a grand educational project of Dumbledore to show the wizarding world that werewolves were humans with treatable conditions, and which did not need to feared. But, if you think about it, either Lupin was a grand failure (due to the Prank), or Dumbledore was only interested in helping *one* werewolf. Because we're told that Fenrir made a habit of biting children, and that Lupin was one of his first victims, and yet we never hear about any other werewolves being educated at Hogwarts. > > Montavilla47: > > When did Lupin give up? I saw him complaining about his assignment, > > but I never saw him give it up. > > Pippin: > "I cannot pretend that my particular brand of reasoned argument is > making much headway against Greyback's insistence that we werewolves > deserve blood, that we ought to revenge ourselves on normal people." > -HBP 16 > > That's a prediction of failure, and Lupin's presence at the Weasleys > and later at Hogwarts confirms that he's come in from the cold. Montavilla47: I don't really see that. I see the prediction, which could indicate eventual failure. But it could simply be discouragement. His presence at the Weasleys only indicates to me that he was invited there for Christmas. We don't really know where these werewolf peers are. They might all be living in the woods, or they might all be meeting Thursday nights for poker. There's nothing to say that Lupin can't both be making overtures to the werewolves and enjoying an occasional holiday with the Weasleys. Likewise, his presence at Hogwarts only indicates that he was at Hogwarts. It doesn't indicate that either or Dumbledore has given up on the werewolves. Who never put in an appearance in any case. > Pippin: > > > Plotwise, of course, JKR needed a way to keep Hagrid and Lupin > > > offstage for long periods but still available for their parts in > the last book. > > > > Montavilla47: > > I have to disagree with even this statement. The only time JKR > > *needed* Hagrid offstage was when Harry arrived late at Hogwarts. > > (If Hagrid hadn't been visiting his brother, he could just as easily > have been busy escorting the firsties across the lake at that moment. > And, by the way, I wonder who got stuck with that job in HBP?) > > Pippin: > JKR needed Hagrid offstage in OOP so that Harry could feel abandoned > at Hogwarts, and so that Umbridge could have a free rein. I don't > suppose Hagrid would have taken kindly to finding out that Harry was > getting words carved on his hand, whatever Dumbledore and McGonagall > said. Montavilla47: Harry still had those words carved on his hand when Hagrid showed up, and yet Hagrid didn't do anything about them. I doubt he would have done anything earlier, either. Nor did Hagrid have any power to stop Umbridge from doing anything (unless he were to sic an acromantula on her). The opposite was true. It was Umbridge who reined Hagrid in, quite severely. > Montavilla: > > The obsession with Lupin's activities was more likely fueled by > > the idea (planted by that ending scene in GoF) that the werewolves > > were ZOMG IMPORTANT! > > Pippin: > > Huh? > > IIRC, there wasn't anything about overtures to the werewolves in GoF. > Sirius was told to hole up with Lupin. Obviously Lupin was not engaged > in a secret mission to the werewolves at that time. There was a > throwaway line in OOP about Lupin's mysterious missions, but we didn't > find out what he was up to until HBP, when he filled us in, but also > let us know he wasn't getting anywhere. Montavilla47: You're quite right. I was misremembering. It was the Dementors that Dumbledore was excited about. And that did turn out to be somewhat significant in OotP, since the Dementors helped facilitate the breakout (I think?) I apologize. I guess we wildly speculated on Lupin's role on our own. But I do think that his bringing up his mission in HBP did raise a bit of expectaion about the werewolves having some significance. Presumably Dumbledore wasn't just sending Lupin out on this mission to make him miserable. Or maybe he was. Or, maybe Lupin succeeded. Maybe if he hadn't tried to keep the werewolves from joining Voldemort, there would have been lot of them fighting that night. It's kind of hard to know, especially since there wasn't a full moon. But the werewolves is minor compared to the giants. Because with the giants it wasn't a throwaway line here and there. It was Dumbledore insisting on an embassy. It was Hagrid heroically leaving Harry at the end of GoF and much Trio speculation in the first half of OotP. It was an entire chapter devoted to Hagrid's adventures in the mountains. It was another chapter or three dealing with Grawp. That's a lot of page time devoted to something that ultimately became irrelevant. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sat Nov 1 21:28:20 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 21:28:20 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184788 > Montavilla47: > I mean, if JKR wants us to end up thinking that Fudge was right > in this moment and that Dumbledore was being an alarmist, then > I guess she succeeded. But I doubt that that was the intent. Zara: Giants are shown to be working with Voldemort in HBP, having been approached and recruited by him in GoF. The Ministry, presumably, could have made a more attractive offer to them than Hagrid was in a position to make. This would have freed the Ministry, in HBP, from the massive efforts of Obliviating half the West Country of England in the wake of a giant attack disguised as a hurricane. Werewolves were used similarly, as were Dementors - the papers in HBP were full of stories about Dementors and werewolves, and such attacks doubtless kept the Auror and other law enforcement departments busy investigating and trying to play defense. This made the Ministry more vulnerable, in my opinion. All three of the groups Albus warned about, were used by Voldemort to weaken the Ministry and make his Death Eaters infiltration and overthrow of it possible. I am not sure what more Albus should have done, in your opinion, to further an investigation into the death of Cedric. He insisted to Fudge that he believed Harry's account, and that he had personally interrogated Crouch, Jr. under Veritaserum and there really had been a plot to being Voldemort back, etc. Fudge insisted the case was closed, Crouch was a maniac acting alone and had been Kissed, end of story. Not long after this conversation, Fudge was able to have Albus removed from his position at the Wizengamot, and Albus faced a camapign to discredit him in the public's eyes in the Daily Prophet. From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 1 23:06:03 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 23:06:03 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184789 > > Montavilla47: > > I mean, if JKR wants us to end up thinking that Fudge was right > > in this moment and that Dumbledore was being an alarmist, then > > I guess she succeeded. But I doubt that that was the intent. > > Zara: > Giants are shown to be working with Voldemort in HBP, having been > approached and recruited by him in GoF. The Ministry, presumably, could > have made a more attractive offer to them than Hagrid was in a position > to make. This would have freed the Ministry, in HBP, from the massive > efforts of Obliviating half the West Country of England in the wake of > a giant attack disguised as a hurricane. Montavilla47: That seems to be extent of the giant involvement. I'm not sure how extensive that attack was or how much an effort was involved in obliviating the people. But if that was the purpose--to make the Ministry waste massive resources in obliviating Muggles, I don't think the giants would have been necessary. They could have let off a dozen boxes of Weasley fireworks in the heart of London to get the same effect. But that's to argue as a person within the Potterverse. I'm really arguing as a reader. The giants were set up to be important, and, ultimately, they weren't. That Hagrid's mission failed had little effect on the conflict--although it probably had great effect on a number of Muggles in the West Country. Zara: > Werewolves were used similarly, as were Dementors - the papers in HBP > were full of stories about Dementors and werewolves, and such attacks > doubtless kept the Auror and other law enforcement departments busy > investigating and trying to play defense. This made the Ministry more > vulnerable, in my opinion. All three of the groups Albus warned about, > were used by Voldemort to weaken the Ministry and make his Death Eaters > infiltration and overthrow of it possible. Montavilla47: That's entirely possible. However I don't think it's evident from the book. I realize that we are seeing the war through the eyes of teenagers, but the attacks in HBP seem both small and targeted. Moreover, the Ministry is shown throughout HBP to be ineffective and wasting its time on chasing after fake amulet sellers braggart bus conductors. They don't even need Voldemort doing anything to be weak. The one significant thing that happens with the giants (plus the bridge) is that Fudge steps down. But, again, there doesn't seem to be any point to that, since Scrimgeour is neither evil nor effective as a Minister. Unless... was Scrimgeour supposed to be some kind of red herring? Zara: > I am not sure what more Albus should have done, in your opinion, to > further an investigation into the death of Cedric. He insisted to Fudge > that he believed Harry's account, and that he had personally > interrogated Crouch, Jr. under Veritaserum and there really had been a > plot to being Voldemort back, etc. Fudge insisted the case was closed, > Crouch was a maniac acting alone and had been Kissed, end of story. Not > long after this conversation, Fudge was able to have Albus removed from > his position at the Wizengamot, and Albus faced a camapign to discredit > him in the public's eyes in the Daily Prophet. Montavilla47: Things Dumbledore might have done to push Fudge into investigating the murder: 1. Spoken to those at the Wizangamot who trusted him in order to gain support for an investigation. 2. Given an interview to the Daily Prophet urging an investigation and naming the Death Eaters present. 3. Taken Fudge to the scene of the crime--which Dumbledore should have been able to identify, due to his previous investigations into Tom's past. 4. Asked Madame Maxime and whatever authority he could find at Durmstrang to urge an investigation into the death, which took place during an international tournament that all three schools were involved in. 5. Urged the Diggories to press the Ministry to release the true facts about their son's death. Surely they would want their son's death to help others avoid Voldemort's rule? Now, we don't know that Dumbledore *didn't* do any of those things, so I'm not trying to bash Dumbledore. He put his priorities where he thought they belonged. My point is not that Dumbledore acted wrongly. My point is that the giants were set up to be important to the story. Not just at the end of GoF, but throughout OotP. That they were referred to at the beginning of HBP, and that Grawp reappeared at the end, only seemed to underscore their importance, since we were being encourage to remember them. And ultimately, they were disappointing. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Nov 2 14:05:47 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 14:05:47 -0000 Subject: Snape's eyes / Seamus's fox / Werewolf students Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184790 Doddiemoemoe wrote in : << As a disabled veteran I have a few things to say... >> Thank you for your service. The rest of my reply is so long, and has nothing to do with the Potter ouevre, so I put it in . Zara discussed Chapter 32 in : << 2) Speaking of this something, what are we to make of it? These same eyes have been elsewhere described thusly: "They were cold and empty and made you think of dark tunnels". (Empty things have *nothing* in them.) >> I believe Rowling intended the 'empty' and look like 'dark tunnels' only when Snape was Legilimensing Harry. Other times, his eyes gleam and flash and glint and glitter (do they also sparkle?) and 'Acire' suggested in that << the little-known theory that Snape doesn't actually have eyeballs and that there are gemstones in his sockets. That's why they glitter and flash. And they're magical, too. >> Carol wrote in : << A fox for Seamus? Are foxes associated with Irishness? >> Foxes are associated with trickiness (altho' the one seeking food in the gutter in Spinner's End was just a victim), reinforcing my belief that there is something about Seamus -- some reason the Sorting Hat took 'almost a whole minute' to decide what to do with him. Maybe there was originally going to be a sub-plot in which Seamus was a traitor in this generation of Gryffindors. As for Luna's hare, hares have a lunar connection because some cultures see a hare in the Moon instead of, or as well as, a man or woman in the moon. Do they have any lunar connection in European cultures? Montavilla47 wrote in : << Because we're told that Fenrir made a habit of biting children, and that Lupin was one of his first victims, and yet we never hear about any other werewolves being educated at Hogwarts. >> I'm sure there's a lot that went on at Hogwarts that we didn't hear about. Apparently Dumbledore decided that the Shrieking Shack wasn't a good solution for werewolf students (presumably because of the Prank) and either came up with another solution or didn't accept werewolf students until the Wolfsbane Potion was invented. Even if he gave up on his werewolf rights project because of the Prank, he could resume it when the Wolfsbane Potion became available. Described as a recent invention when Harry was a third year student, it could have been recent and still been invented long enough ago that werewolf students at Hogwarts were successfully treated with it before Harry had even heard of Hogwarts. One result of the treatment being successful is that even someone who listens to more gossip than Harry does wouldn't have heard rumors that so-and-so is a werewolf. Of course, if parents whose children were bitten choose to toss them out and claim that the child died, so Fenrir can invite them to join his werewolf encampment and grow up as his followers, those children would not be academically qualified to go to Hogwarts. From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Sun Nov 2 17:38:23 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 17:38:23 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184791 > Montavilla47: > Now, we don't know that Dumbledore *didn't* do any of those > things, so I'm not trying to bash Dumbledore. He put his priorities > where he thought they belonged. > > My point is not that Dumbledore acted wrongly. My point is that > the giants were set up to be important to the story. Not just at > the end of GoF, but throughout OotP. That they were referred to > at the beginning of HBP, and that Grawp reappeared at the end, > only seemed to underscore their importance, since we were > being encourage to remember them. Magpie: It makes sense to me, what you're saying. The whole "we don't know that he didn't do these things" is not really relevent. It's, as Sidney said once, like talking about the series as if it's a documentary and JKR just didn't have the footage to put things in. But that's not how it works. The problem isn't that Dumbledore as a man within his own world was bad for not doing these things--that's a valid discussion to have, it's just a different one. That's where we jump into the universe and imagine what we might have done differently. But I think what you're pointing to here gets into the problem of the war in general. JKR is writing a story about Harry. It all comes down to him. The war is won the same way the Philosopher's Stone is won-- by Harry following clues and testing himself personally, and making the right choice. Unfortunately there's also all these stuff that hints at an actual war story: Dumbledore talking about needing alliances with giants, or other countries. Lupin spying on werewolves. Snape and his mysterious intelligence from the DEs. The Order's mysterious doings before DH. It's all people doing war business (like a stage business in a play), but there's no war written. Characters stay home until Harry needs them and are then called in time to provide a background melee in a single building at the end. Wherever Harry goes war stuff springs up around him and then fades back into unimportance when he leaves. But that does imo mean there's a lot of things that just go nowhere, especially the end of GoF. Even when these groups do come up again, like the reference to giants doing stuff in HBP, it's just a general "bad things happening for atmosphere" thing. If you think logically about world building in this way it gets like a Pensieve where you wonder how far Harry could walk away from Snape while in Snape's memory before the world ceased to exist, if that makes sense. The war only exists so far as it directly affects Harry or Harry will directly affect it. It doesn't create tons more complications as individual people are touched and react. -m From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 2 17:57:19 2008 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 2 Nov 2008 17:57:19 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/2/2008, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1225648639.10.72180.m47@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184792 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday November 2, 2008 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2008 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnoyl at aim.com Sun Nov 2 19:29:20 2008 From: jnoyl at aim.com (JLyon) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 12:29:20 -0700 Subject: Dumbledore's Worthless Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184793 Dumbledore is shown making suggestions to the Minister. He does not push his view. He is not seen standing up to the Wizengamot and outlining what needs to be done. We do not see any signs that he is working behind the scenes to get the DEs out of the Wizengamot or the Ministry. He never calls in the IAW, or whatever he is a member or head of. He never calls in the Dark Arts Defense League (which could be international, we don't know). The point is, we never see him do anything other spend his time keeping Harry in Dursleyban under 24/7 "suicide" watch (and as separated from his friends as possible) and setting up his next "fun time" for Harry. He doesn't train Harry and he doesn't educate Harry (don't even think to call those pensieve moments "education." The man has tons of political power and we never see him use it. The man has his own army and never takes the fight to the DEs. All he does is as little as possible to keep the world going until Harry can give up his life for the greater good. Remember that Bumble's whole "plan" is to have Harry allow himself to be killed. Why waste time training Harry when his whole reason to exist is so that he can be killed. The man seems to have known since he spent that mysterious 24 hours with baby Harry that Harry was a horcrux, and yet he wasted all those years doing nothing so that Harry could have his wonderful scavenger hunt. I would say that Harry's second year shows how little Dumbledore is willing to do. Children are dropping like bowling pins and he can't even figure out about the basilisk. This is with his mastery of Legillimency not detecting Quirellmort or the fraud that was Lockhart. Reading any one of the books (or all of them) leads one to conclude that Dumbledore is either totally incompetent or all is going according to his plans. JLyon From iam.kemper at gmail.com Sun Nov 2 22:18:02 2008 From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kempermentor) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 22:18:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's eyes / Seamus's fox / Werewolf students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184794 > Catlady: > ... > As for Luna's hare, hares have a lunar connection because some > cultures see a hare in the Moon instead of, or as well as, a man or > woman in the moon. Do they have any lunar connection in European cultures? Kemper now: I'm sure Luna's hare has lunar connections, but I like the idea that she, Luna, represents one of the Three Hares which probably represent female and the Earth. Kind of the opposite of the Green Man... or maybe to balance the Green Man's masculinity. Kemper From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 06:10:27 2008 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 06:10:27 -0000 Subject: Hermione WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184795 > > > Zara: > > I was curious what people would answer here. I did not notice this > > moment, particularly, until I prepared to write the discussion and > > read the chapter with attention to details, looking for questions. > > This, like the birthday scene with Ginny, is for me a little hidden > > gem, now that I found it. To me, it is a nice feminist moment. > While > > there is also some message there about Hermione having moved on > from > > her jealousy of Lavender and feeling secure in Ron's affection for > > her, to me the more meaningful point here is not that *Lavender* is > > being rescued, but that Hermione is rescuing a female *from > Greyback*. > > Alla: > > I am not sure I understand how it is a feminist moment, you know? I > mean, to me it is more like another look how great Hermione is moment. > > I mean I would have understand the feminist moment much more if we > see another female character who we never saw fighting before and now > she got her chance to shine. I suppose Trelawney should count then > for me. > Interesting. Different people read the same text in different ways. :) *Hermione* saving *Lavender* caught my attention too but then I thought that JKR was hinting that all personal differences/quarrels were simply forgotten in the battle against Dark Arts and that people focussed only on respect for life. Everyone felt just the same - to stand up to Voldy/DEs/werewolves folks and oppose oppression of all forms. Trelawney joining and attacking Greyback also meant something similar to me. I didn't even vaguely think of feminism while I read these passages! :) JMO, ~Joey From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Nov 3 16:44:31 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 16:44:31 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184796 > > Montavilla47: > Yes, but none of those things has to do with reforming the Ministry > itself. The first is just a title, and the second two have to are really more him voicing his opinions about certain policies than actively working on changing the system. Pippin: We see him trying to gain consent that reforms should be made, which is about all anyone can do, in authority or not, if one believes that no meaningful positive change can happen without consent. We don't see much of Dumbledore pushing, but we know he pushed hard enough that Fudge pushed back. Dumbledore and Harry were marginalized by a smear campaign in which Harry was identified as a disturbed youth being manipulated by a power-hungry Dumbledore. That wasn't as far from the truth as Harry would have liked to think, heheh. But Dumbledore would appear far more of a monster if we didn't know that he'd tried to find some other means to counter Voldemort, even though, without Ministry cooperation, he wasn't likely to get very far. I think it was for that reason that Rowling put in as much as she did about efforts that eventually were to prove unsuccessful. > Montavilla47: > But whether or not they intelligent in another context, they *aren't* in another situation. They are in the situation that JKR created for them, which is one that makes them basically useless to either side. Which is only a problem when you set them up to be important > as either allies or enemies. Because that sets up an expectation > in the reader's mind. Pippin: But was it set up that way? It was a plausible expectation circa GoF that the giants would be a key element, but as it turned out, giants and dementors were of tactical, not strategic, importance. Voldemort's stated strategy was to raise "an army of creatures whom all fear" -- which he did, using dementors and a giant or two, but also werewolves and most of all wizards controlled by Imperius. Dumbledore's stated strategy was to encourage unity, "we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided" in the service of the greater, ie common, good. In retrospect, what Dumbledore foresaw was that even with an energetic leader, the Ministry would be too weak to stand up to Voldemort alone. That's what was demonstrated by replacing Fudge with Scrimgeour. In retrospect, Dumbledore pressed Fudge about the Giants and the dementors because Voldemort had talked about them in the graveyard and it was a logical move to thwart Voldemort's plans. But it was no use telling Fudge that since he refused to believe there had been a graveyard. Nor would it have been easy to convince him. We've seen how easily wizards can fake a crime scene, and just as easily conceal evidence that a crime had taken place. IMO, the giants as a race are mostly a cautionary tale, contained within OOP, of what can happen if people are so marginalized that they can no longer provide for themselves. Thematically, it's Grawp rather than the race of giants, that's important. Towards the end of OOP, Grawp protected the Trio because they were friends of Hagrid, something that Aragog once refused to do. That was hardly irrelevant to the theme of recognizing a common good which supersedes old doubts and enmities. It was, as Dumbledore hoped, the key to victory, achieved by people working, if not in harmony, then at least in parallel. IMO, both Voldemort and Dumbledore pursued exactly the strategies they laid out in GoF. But as for the details, we would have been wise to heed the narrator: "it was useless to speculate about what might be coming until they knew anything for certain." -- GoF ch 37. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Nov 5 14:10:35 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 14:10:35 -0000 Subject: Defining Moments (was Re: CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184798 > Alla: > But another reason why I am answering is because I wanted to mention > one of my all time favorite mirrors, even though it is not in this > chapter or not in this book. > > I was overjoyed when I heard Slughorn saying "point for your cheek" > in HBP to Harry. To me it was such a nice slap to Snape's face, even > if Snape was not there lol. I loved it and of course remembered that > disgusting (IMO) first lesson. > > Maybe that is the reason why I like Slughorn so much despite him > having some very big flaws, which I fully acknowledge. Although > probably I liked him since his first appearance. Potioncat: Oddly enough, this mirrors why I like Snape so much despite his very big flaws. It's the moment when Quirrell says Snape hates Harry, but has been protecting him that I started to "like" Snape. "Point for your cheek" is a fun moment, isn't it? It's a neat idea giving a student points for being a bit outrageous or for thinking outside the box. It reminds me a little of McGonagall giving points to the boys for sheer dumb luck. Alla likes the "cheek" moment because it counters Snape, I just like it for the surprise it gives Harry. Either way, I don't like Slughorn and I see his actions differently over all. Differences are so much fun! It's probably just such moments that have caused readers to like or dislike a character--as opposed to being indifferent. For example, readers seem to really like or really dislike Luna, but to me she's just another character. Does anyone else have a defining moment that made an impression about a particular character, and determined how the reader felt about that character? Potioncat, who deleted an earlier version of this post. I should never try to post the moment I get home from vacation. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Nov 5 17:47:16 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 17:47:16 -0000 Subject: Harry, A History Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184799 Where have I been? Did the rest of you know about this? I was trying to satisfy my need for a HP fix...the boards are slow these days...and I stumbled across this site. I guess I vaguely knew someone was writing about the HP experience, but I didn't know a book was coming out so soon. It's by Melissa Anelli. Here's a link to an article at HPANA. It refers to the book as a novel, but it doesn't sound like a novel to me. http://hpana.com/news.20651.html Here's a link to some JKR interview out-takes from the book. These deal with alternate plans, or more details about canon. http://www.harryahistory.com/vault27.html JKR speaks about alternate plans for Hedwig, thoughts about the veil, and Harry's surviving. Potioncat, not sure if this belongs here or at OT, but am giving it a whirl. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 5 21:28:16 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2008 21:28:16 -0000 Subject: Defining Moments (was Re: CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184800 Potioncat: It's probably just such moments that have caused readers to like or dislike a character--as opposed to being indifferent. For example, readers seem to really like or really dislike Luna, but to me she's just another character. Does anyone else have a defining moment that made an impression about a particular character, and determined how the reader felt about that character? Alla: I think I do have such moments for several characters, not for Snape though ? too many of them to list lol. And now it is really hard to say if the moments I am about to list were truly defining on the first read, but here it is for what it is worth, if I am remember my first reactions correctly. Also sometimes my reactions did change back. I think the moment when Harry sees Dobby with the pile of letters in his hands is when started to get seriously annoyed with Dobby and annoyance never left me till he died, then I cried. I think that I fell for Sirius when he was telling Harry that he as if killed his parents and when he offers Harry to live with him. I think and this one pretty easy I could not stand Grawp the moment he appeared in the story. I think that my dislike of Albus Dumbledore **certain actions** (okay, many actions) transformed into extreme dislike of the character as a whole after I read Prince's tale. Speaking about Slughorn, I stand by my response that I loved his response to Harry about the point for the cheek, but I think I also liked him so much after I read about him running away from the DE. To me there was something in his story that I could just identify with in a sense. No, I do not have a network of favorites, or something. It is the idea that the person who loves comfort so much still decided to do **something** in order to avoid joining DE, even this something is just running. I mean, I keep telling myself that if necessity arises I will stand up and fight? But will I? I do not know till I am in the situation. I respect when person makes some attempt to avoid joining Evil. And I loved Minerva since I heard her telling Dumbledore what exactly she thinks of Dursleys. It is funny to think about it how many of my moments were the moments when I met the character for the first time. For some of the characters ( cough Snape, cough), my impression got worse and worse and then when I reread the first moments, I certainly remember that my reaction changed, for some other characters the overall positive first impression stayed for me, even if the character sometimes committed less than admirable actions. JMO, Alla From cheresherri at adelphia.net Thu Nov 6 01:49:20 2008 From: cheresherri at adelphia.net (cheresherri) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:49:20 -0000 Subject: Defining Moments (was Re: CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184801 > Potioncat: > > Does anyone else have a defining moment that made an impression about > a particular character, and determined how the reader felt about that > character? > When I think of something that happened that CHANGED my opinion about a character, it would be that of Remus Lupin, when he wants to leave his newly pregnant wife behind and run off with a bunch of teenagers (Harry, Ron and Hermione, of course) for an adventure. His rationalizations (she's better off without me, her parents don't approve of me) made me feel even more angered at him, a character I once saw as kind, selfless and intelligent suddenly became gruff, selfish and impulsive. Even though he sacrificed his life for Harry and the greater wizarding good, my opinion of him never returned to what it once was. Cheresherri, who has been gone from the boards for awhile and is happy to be back! From cheresherri at adelphia.net Thu Nov 6 02:13:20 2008 From: cheresherri at adelphia.net (cheresherri) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 02:13:20 -0000 Subject: Harry, A History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184802 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > Where have I been? Did the rest of you know about this? > > > Potioncat, not sure if this belongs here or at OT, but am giving it a > whirl. > Potioncat, The book sounds more like a recent memoir or documentary about recent events; I think the auhtor of the article used the term "novel" a bit too loosely. That being said, what is this book really about - other people's experiences when encountering for the first, or successive times - the Harry Potter world? If so, I must say that I won't be spending any money on it...I enjoyed buying the HP books and reading them, but not adding funds to anyone trying to tag along on the tails of JKR's success. If these books were worthy in and of themselves and had something to add to the true HP story, maybe...but they don't. The only exception for me was the Wizarding World Press guides...I did like them. Thanks for letting us all know about this book and providing links so we can check it out and see if we want to buy it before spending the money. Cheresherri From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Thu Nov 6 23:10:17 2008 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 23:10:17 -0000 Subject: Harry, A History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cheresherri" wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > wrote: > > > > Where have I been? Did the rest of you know about this? > > > > > Potioncat, not sure if this belongs here or at OT, but am giving it > a > > whirl. > > > > Potioncat, > > The book sounds more like a recent memoir or documentary about recent > events; I think the auhtor of the article used the term "novel" a bit > too loosely. That being said, what is this book really about - other > people's experiences when encountering for the first, or successive > times - the Harry Potter world? If so, I must say that I won't be > spending any money on it...I enjoyed buying the HP books and reading > them, but not adding funds to anyone trying to tag along on the tails > of JKR's success. If these books were worthy in and of themselves > and had something to add to the true HP story, maybe...but they > don't. The only exception for me was the Wizarding World Press > guides...I did like them. > > Thanks for letting us all know about this book and providing links so > we can check it out and see if we want to buy it before spending the > money. > > Cheresherri Geoff: I've ordered a copy from Amazon already. It's by Melissa Annelli who is the organiser of the Leaky Cauldron site and looks at the background - JKR's life, alternative plot lines, fanfic etc. JKR has also provided a foreword. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Nov 7 13:27:47 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 13:27:47 -0000 Subject: Harry, A History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184804 > Geoff: > I've ordered a copy from Amazon already. It's by Melissa Annelli > who is the organiser of the Leaky Cauldron site and looks at the > background - JKR's life, alternative plot lines, fanfic etc. > > JKR has also provided a foreword. Potioncat: JKR is also listed as the second author on "Harry: A History." I called my library to see if it's being ordered. The librarian I spoke with hadn't heard of it, but was researching it during our call. She seemed to be positive. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. The chapters deal with different aspects of the HP experience. Oddly enough, I didn't care for the exerpt I read, but the out-takes indicate the book will be very interesting. I'm really looking forward to the sections that deal with the evolution of the story, JKR's thoughts, things that affected the final product. One part specifically talked about the fan's impression of events vrs JKR's impression. There were ideas and theories and inside jokes that she knew nothing about, yet fans thought she did. I think it's a great idea. I'm still not sure why JKR encouraged this book, but not the Lexicon. From kersberg at chello.nl Sat Nov 8 00:51:54 2008 From: kersberg at chello.nl (kamion53) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 00:51:54 -0000 Subject: Harry, A History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184805 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cheresherri" wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > wrote: > > > Potioncat, not sure if this belongs here or at OT, but am giving it > a > > whirl. > > > > Potioncat, ==== If so, I must say that I won't be > spending any money on it...I enjoyed buying the HP books and reading > them, but not adding funds to anyone trying to tag along on the tails > of JKR's success. ===== > Cheresherri > kamion: My feelings exactly, particulairy because the author of this book was one of the people yelling loudest about tagging along on JKR's succes when Steve Vanderark intended to have his Lexicon published. She got full support from JKr, no wonder, she sucked up enough. Beside in the few pieces I've read on the net where JKR herself is quoted my stomach turned inside out from the nonsense JKR herself is telling about intenstions and what all should be read or understand, but is just not there in the books. From catlady at wicca.net Sat Nov 8 23:10:23 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 23:10:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Worthless In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184806 JLyon wrote in : << I would say that Harry's second year shows how little Dumbledore is willing to do. Children are dropping like bowling pins and he can't even figure out about the basilisk. This is with his mastery of Legillimency not detecting Quirellmort or the fraud that was Lockhart. >> I feel sure that Dumbledore knew all along what a fraud Lockhart was. If he didn't know it before he hired Lockhart (supposedly because Lockhart was the only applicant for the job, altho' it may have been that DD had decided to relieve the wizarding world from this particular nuisance), if the House Elves or the portraits didn't tell him about the mess Lockhart made with his Cornish Pixies, if Hagrid didn't complain to him about Lockhart, Dumbledore would at least have found out when they discovered the Petrified Mrs Norris. Lockhart said: "It was definitely a curse that killed her" and four short paragraphs later, Albus said: "She's not dead, Argus". As Albus explained "She has been Petrified", Lockhart said: "Ah! I thought so!" in the background. What more evidence does DD need to know he's a fake? Evidence that DD already knew about Lockhart's Memory Charms waits until the end: "He tried to do a Memory Charm and the wand backfired," Ron explained quietly to Dumbledore. "Dear me," said Dumbledore, shaking his head, his long silver mustache quivering. "Impaled upon your own sword, Gilderoy!" 'Impaled' upon your own sword instead of 'hoist on his own petard' -- it's not a reference to magic, so perhaps the idea is that the old-fashioned wizarding world hung on to a phrase used before petards were invented. Petards were an early form of grenade invented around 1580 and in those days, an 'engineer' didn't drive a choo-choo train, much less design bridges; an engineer made catapults and explosives. From annie3x20 at aol.com Sat Nov 8 18:02:53 2008 From: annie3x20 at aol.com (Annie) Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2008 18:02:53 -0000 Subject: Harry, A History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > Where have I been? Did the rest of you know about this? The book is not a novel, the article was wrong about that. It is, well, a history. It's the story of the fandom, mostly, but also includes excerpts of interviews with Jo, and a Foreward, by her. Jo says that she was glad to read the story from the "other" side of the page, because a lot of what went on, she didn't know. If you are interested in learning about the fandom, and the experience, then it's a good read. If you're seeking another story, or secret hidden canon, then it's not what you're looking for. Annie From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 9 17:57:29 2008 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 9 Nov 2008 17:57:29 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/9/2008, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1226253449.11.80604.m56@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184808 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday November 9, 2008 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2008 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 9 19:39:09 2008 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (shagufta_naazpk2000) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 19:39:09 -0000 Subject: Which character inspired you or Compliment a character take 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Pick one quality or action of the character you like and tell us (with > canon help of course) why you would want to have that quality or maybe > that you are happy that you have it already. Ooh nice -Hermione's attention to detail: The way she researches everything from the number of registered Animagi to the things she packs in the little beaded bag (and hangs on to the bag even after being captured and tortured) -Neville's courage in standing up to his friends. (In Philosopher's Stone when he tries to stop the Trio from sneaking out at night. Dumbledore awarding him 10 points for that was one of the most heartwarming bits of that book) -Ron's ability to be a great friend. I know he's been a jerk at times but he's still the best friend a guy could have. He puts his life on the line time and again for Harry, he tears up Percy's letter with disgust, he stands up for him against Snape ...I could go on and on... -Fred and George's sense of fun: Well not as drastic as feeding unsuspecting people canary creams and ten-ton toffees but their gift for repartee and puns - ear ear...(I love you Jo but i can't forgive you for killing Fred) -Luna's temperament - nothing puts her in a flap -Snape's moral courage: To be blamed and loathed for doing something you had to do under duress and never, ever reveal the truth, wow ...that's courage. Reminds me of a line from my favourite book (outside the HP series) "Courage is not a man with a gun (or a wand in this case). It's when you know you're licked before you begin but you begin anyways and see a thing through no matter what. You don't often win, but sometimes you do" -Dumbledore's belief in the essential goodness of people - and his habit of giving people chances. That's all I can think off for now cheers Shagufta > Please, stick to one quality for each character, but you can mention as > many characters as you wish. > > For example, I know that if the circumstances arise that I will > definitely want to take the child of my dead friends (hopefully not) in > and bring him up as my own, just as as Sirius wanted to bring Harry as > his own son. > > I would **want** to be as brave as Harry and to fight against evil, but > that I am not hundred percent sure if I have it in me, but I know I > would try. > > > Alla > From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Nov 10 14:19:58 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:19:58 -0000 Subject: Defining Moments (was Re: CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184810 "cheresherri" > When I think of something that happened that CHANGED my opinion about > a character, it would be that of Remus Lupin, when he wants to leave > his newly pregnant wife behind and run off with a bunch of teenagers > (Harry, Ron and Hermione, of course) for an adventure. Potioncat: A lot of readers have had the same reaction. I've read some very convincing posts with this slant, and I know it's a valid one, but I pepersonally don't get the same impression. Remus seems to be the one adult who wants to be involved in bringing LV down. He doesn't know the kids are going on a prolonged camping trip. > cheresherri > snip> a character I once saw as kind, selfless and intelligent >suddenly became gruff, selfish and impulsive. Potioncat: Oh, But that's the nature of werewolf. I also have a defining moment for Mr. Lovegood. All along he was an eccentric, brave character who showed character by printing anti-LV stories and supporting Harry. When we saw him betray Harry to protect his daughter, and we knew it wasn't cowardice or greed, but a reall effort to save Luna...boy did my heart go out to him! Come to think of it, this sort of mirrors, or contrasts with Lupin, leaving his family to be Harry. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Nov 10 17:13:01 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:13:01 -0000 Subject: Lupin's leaving was Defining Moments (was Re: CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184811 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > Come to think of it, this sort of mirrors, or contrasts with Lupin, > leaving his family to be Harry. > Pippin: The typo says it all. Lupin didn't leave his family because he wanted to be *with* Harry. He left because he wanted to *be* Harry. He wanted the clear importance of a do-or-die mission from Dumbledore instead of the uncertain rewards of being a stay-home dad. In isolation, it does read as if Harry's jumping to conclusions, but if you look at all of Lupin's interactions with Harry, he's only ever wanted to be involved if something important was going on. Otherwise, it's been out of sight, out of mind. Lupin left a pregnant woman with whom he'd sworn a life bond, one who was prone to depression, and was certainly at risk considering her situation: targeted by death eaters, jobless or soon to be, facing rejection from her family and her husband and on top of it all the possibility of bearing a disabled child. Tonks's plight, if Lupin had abandoned her, might have been very similar to Merope's. It would be sadly ironic if Lupin had helped to save the world from Voldemort, only to have Teddy grow up to be another Tom. Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 18:59:05 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:59:05 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184812 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space) HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com --------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter 33, The Prince's Tale Note to everyone: Please pardon the length of this summary. The chapter is 28 pages long (Scholastic edition). As Harry kneels beside the murdered Snape, he hears Voldemort's magically amplified voice, sounding so close to him that he nearly drops the flask of memories. Voldemort tells the staff and students of Hogwarts that, though he regrets spilling a drop of magical blood, they will all die if they don't turn Harry over to him within an hour. Then he addresses Harry directly, implying that he's a coward who lets his friends die rather than facing death himself. He threatens to resume the battle and "enter the fray" himself if Harry fails to give himself up and to punish anyone who tries to conceal him. Telling Harry not to listen, Hermione and Ron rush into the tunnel. Instead of following them immediately, Harry stares down at Snape's body, feeling nothing but shock at the way Snape died and the reason for his death. They find the entrance hall empty and silent, its floor stained with blood and littered with emeralds from the broken Slytherin hourglass, along with splintered wood and shattered marble from a broken banister. In the Great Hall, survivors huddle in groups, comforting one another, as Madam Pomfrey and her helpers treat the wounded, one of whom is Firenze. In the middle of the room lie the dead. The Weasleys stand around Fred's body, George kneeling at his feet, Mrs. Weasley lying across his chest. Ron joins Bill and Fleur, and Hermione hugs Ginny. Percy flings an arm around Ron's shoulders. Harry sees Lupin and Tonks lying together, looking peacefully asleep. He can't bear to look at any other bodies to see who else died for him or to join the Weasleys, feeling that if he'd given himself up earlier, Fred might still be alive. Not thinking where he's going, he runs through the deserted castle until he reaches the gargoyle guarding the entrance to the headmaster's office. The gargoyle asks him for the password and he blurts out "Dumbledore!" To his astonishment, the door slides open. The headmaster's office is empty, the portraits (even Dumbledore's) having deserted their frames to see what's happening downstairs. Heaving the Pensieve onto the desk, he pours the contents of the flask into it. Not even Snape's memories, he thinks, can be worse than what he's feeling. Diving in, he falls headlong into a nearly deserted playground where two little girls are swinging and a black-haired boy in shabby clothes, obviously Severus Snape, is watching them from behind a clump of bushes. He looks about nine or ten, small, sallow, and "stringy." The older girl shrieks, "Lily, don't do it!" as Lily jumps from the swing, soaring through the air and landing lightly on her feet. Petunia protests, but Lily tells "Tuney" that she's fine. Lily picks up a fallen flower and, to Petunia's horror, makes it open and close in her hand. Petunia shrieks again and Lily drops the flower. "It's not right," scolds Petunia. "How do you do it?" Severus steps out from behind the bushes. Petunia shrieks and runs, but Lily stands her ground. He tells her that she's a witch. Lily, not surprisingly, thinks she's been insulted. Looking batlike in his overlarge coat, Severus explains that being a witch isn't bad. His mum is one, and he's a wizard. Petunia regains her courage, identifying him as "that Snape boy" and accusing him of spying on them. He retorts that he wouldn't spy on a Muggle. The girls leave and Severus stands alone, his face reflecting bitter disappointment. The scene dissolves and Harry finds himself standing in a thicket near the river. Lily and Severus sit cross-legged on the ground, facing each other. Eyes gleaming with excitement, Severus tells her that magic and Hogwarts are real for him and Lily but not for Petunia. He talks about the Ministry of Magic sending warning letters to kids who do magic outside school and tells Lily that someone will come to her house to explain about Hogwarts because she's Muggle- born. When she asks whether being Muggle-born makes any difference, he says no; he's seen her do "loads" of magic. She asks about Dementors and he tells her that they guard Azkaban, where wizards who "do really bad stuff" are sent. Petunia, who's been hiding behind a tree, loses her footing. He accuses *her* of spying and she retaliates by insulting his clothes. A branch breaks, hitting her shoulder. Petunia bursts into tears and runs away. Angrily, Lily asks Severus if he made that happen. He denies it, but Lily doesn't believe him. She follows her sister, leaving him looking miserable and confused. A new scene forms, and Harry finds himself on Platform 9 3/4. Severus stands next to his mother, but he's watching the Evans family. Harry hears Lily telling "Tuney" that she's sorry about Dumbledore's letter. Petunia retorts that she doesn't want to go to "some stupid castle" and learn to be a "freak." She tells Lily that separating "weirdos" like her and "that Snape boy" by sending them to Hogwarts is actually good because it protects "normal people" from the weirdos. Lily reminds Petunia that she begged Dumbledore to let her into Hogwarts and says that she saw Dumbledore's kind reply. Petunia is so furious at the "freaks" for poking their noses into her business that she actually spits at Lily. The scene skips to Severus on the Hogwarts Express, already wearing his school robes. In one corner of a compartment full of rowdy boys, Lily sits hunched with her face to the windowpane. Severus sits down across from her. Her face streaked with tears, Lily tells him that Petunia hates her. He starts to say that Petunia is only a Muggle but catches himself. He says excitedly that they're on their way to Hogwarts, adding that Lily had "better be in Slytherin." One of the boys, James, says he'd leave if he were Sorted into Slytherin. Sirius, sitting across from him, says unhappily that his whole family have been in Slytherin. After placating James by saying that maybe he'll break the tradition, Sirius asks which House James wants to be in. James raises an invisible sword and says, "Gryffindor, where dwell the brave at heart!" Severus says that Gryffindor is okay for people who prefer brawn to brains. Sirius taunts Severus, James roars with laughter, and Lily suggests to Severus that they leave. James tries to trip Severus, and either he or Sirius calls out, "See ya, Snivellus!" The scene changes and Harry finds himself standing behind Severus as the First Years wait to be Sorted. Severus groans as the Sorting Hat places Lily in Gryffindor. She glances back sadly and refuses to sit next to Sirius, who has scooted over to make room for her. Severus is Sorted into Slytherin, and Prefect Lucius pats him on the back as he sits down. The memories skip to the end of fifth year, with Severus saying to Lily that he thought they were best friends. Lily says emphatically that they *are* but tells "Sev" that she doesn't like the people he associates with, specifically Avery and Mulciber. She calls Mulciber "creepy" and refers to some unspecified piece of magic that Mulciber tried to perform on Mary McDonald as Dark Magic. Severus changes the subject. "Potter and his mates" sneak out at night and there's something weird about Lupin. When Lily suggests that he's ill, Severus says skeptically, "Every month at the full moon?" Lily coldly dismisses his "theory" and asks why he's obsessed with them. He says that he's just trying to show that they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think She calls him "ungrateful." She's heard that he was "sneaking" around by the Whomping Willow and that James Potter saved him from "whatever's down there." Severus protests angrily that Potter wasn't playing the hero; he was trying to keep himself and his friends out of trouble. After adding that he doesn't want Lily to be made a fool of and that Potter fancies her, he becomes completely inarticulate: "And he's not everyone thinks big Quidditch hero." Lily concedes that James is "an arrogant toerag" but says that his idea of humor isn't "*evil*" like Avery's and Mulciber's. Apparently taking in only what she's said about James Potter, Severus walks away with a spring in his step. The next scene, all too familiar to Harry and to the reader, is Snape's Worst Memory. As Severus, absorbed in reviewing the DADA exam, wanders too near the beech tree where James and his friends are sitting, Harry stands far away, not wanting to hear it all again. But he can't help seeing Lily join the conversation, and he can't help hearing Severus call her a "Mudblood." The scene shifts to Severus's attempted apology and Lily's brusque rejection. She says she's only come out because Mary informed her that Severus intended to sleep outside the Gryffindor common room. He says that "Mudblood" just slipped out. But Lily is tired of making excuses for him when he won't give up his "precious little Death Eater friends." She asks rhetorically, "You can't wait to join You- Know-Who, can you?" He tries to respond but can't. She tells him that she can't pretend any more: They've chosen different paths. He tries again to apologize for calling her "Mudblood," but she says that he uses that word for all Muggle-borns. Again, he tries to speak but can't find the words, and she walks away. The Pensieve skips to Snape as a young man of about twenty, waiting on a windy hilltop. The leafless trees suggest that it's winter. Snape's fear is so palpable that Harry feels it, too. Dumbledore appears in a flash of light, and Snape falls to his knees, disarmed. He pleads with Dumbledore not to kill him. Saying that he has no such intention, Dumbledore asks what message Lord Voldemort has for him. Looking mad and desperate, Snape explains that he's come with a warning, then corrects himself: "No, a request--please." When Dumbledore asks what a Death Eater could want of him, Snape stammers about the prediction, the Prophecy, Trelawney. He admits to revealing all he heard to the Dark Lord, who thinks that the Prophecy refers to "Lily Evans." Dumbledore reminds Snape that the Prophecy refers to a boy born at the end of July, and Snape says, "You know what I mean! He thinks it refers to her son!" He says that Voldemort intends to "hunt her down" and "kill them all." Dumbledore asks why he doesn't just request Voldemort to spare Lily in exchange for her son. Snape confesses that he's already done that. Dumbledore responds with, "You disgust me," and accuses Snape of not caring about the deaths of Lily's husband and child as long as he can have what he wants. Snape begs him to hide them all, to "keep her? them?safe. Please." Dumbledore asks what Snape will give him in return. Harry expects Snape to protest, but instead he promises to do "anything." The next memory shows the new Potions master slumped in a chair in Dumbledore's office, making a sound like a wounded animal, as a grim- faced Dumbledore stands over him. When Snape looks up, he appears to Harry like a man who has "lived a hundred years of misery" since the hilltop (though it can only be about a year). Snape says that he thought Dumbledore was going to keep Lily safe, and Dumbledore responds that the Potters put their faith in the wrong person. He asks whether Snape did the same thing, hoping that Voldemort would spare Lily, and adds that Lily's son survives. Snape brushes away that information. Dumbledore tells him that the boy has Lily's eyes, asking him if he remembers them, and Snape bellows, "DON'T! Gone dead." He wishes *he* were dead. Dumbledore asks what use that would be and says that if Snape truly loved Lily, he'll help protect her son so that she didn't die in vain. Snape protests that the Dark Lord has gone, but Dumbledore says that he'll return, placing Harry Potter in terrible danger. Snape agrees to help but asks for Dumbledore's word that he'll never tell anyone, especially "Potter's son," what he's doing. Dumbledore sighs, looking into Snape's anguished face, and agrees. The scene shifts to sometime early in Harry's first year. Professor Snape gives Dumbledore his picture of eleven-year-old Harry: a mediocre, arrogant, impertinent rule-breaker who's delighted to find himself famous. Dumbledore calmly counters with the reports of other teachers that Harry is "modest, likeable, and reasonably talented." Snape, he says, sees what he expects to see. He asks Snape to keep an eye on Quirrell for him. We skip to the night of the Yule Ball. Snape reports, as in GoF, that Karkaroff's Mark is becoming darker, just like his own. He adds that Karkaroff is panicking, fearing retribution from the Death Eaters for the help he gave the Ministry after Voldemort's fall, and that Karkaroff intends to flee if the Dark Mark burns. Dumbledore asks whether Snape is tempted to join him, and Snape replies that he's not such a coward. Dumbledore agrees that Snape is a far braver man than Karkaroff. Adding, "You know, I sometimes think we Sort too soon," he leaves Snape looking "stricken." The scene moves to Dumbledore's office. It's night, sometime between the end of OoP and "Spinner's End." Dumbledore is sagging, semiconscious, in the headmaster's chair, his right hand blackened. Muttering incantations, Snape points his wand at Dumbledore's injury, at the same time pouring a goblet full of potion down Dumbledore's throat with his left hand. He demands to know why Dumbledore put on a ring that he must have known was cursed. Harry sees Marvolo's ring, its stone cracked, lying on the desk beside the Sword of Gryffindor. Dumbledore admits to being a fool and sorely tempted, but when Snape asks what tempted him, he evades the question. Telling Dumbledore it's a miracle he survived to return to Hogwarts, Snape adds that he's trapped the curse temporarily in Dumbledore's hand. Dumbledore examines his injured hand, tells Snape that he's done very well, and asks conversationally how long he has to live. Snape estimates the time at a year but says that the curse can't be halted permanently; it will strengthen over time. Angry that Dumbledore didn't summon him sooner, Snape asks if Dumbledore thought that destroying the ring with the Sword of Gryffindor would break the curse. Dumbledore changes the subject, saying that his impending death can be used to thwart Voldemort's plan to have Draco murder him. Snape informs him that Voldemort expects Draco to fail and that he's punishing the Malfoy family for Lucius's "recent failures." When Dumbledore asks whether Voldemort expects Snape to kill him if Draco fails, Snape hesitantly admits that he thinks so. He confirms Dumbledore's suspicion that Voldemort plans to take over Hogwarts and gives Dumbledore his word that he'll do everything he can to protect the students if that should happen. Despite Snape's protests that Draco now sees him as usurping Lucius's position, Dumbledore expects him to find out what Draco is up to by offering him help and guidance. Then Dumbledore drops his bombshell: The only way to save Draco from Voldemort's vengeance is for Snape to kill Dumbledore himself. The retort is classic Snape: "Would you like me to do it now? Or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?" He asks why Dumbledore doesn't just let Draco kill him. Dumbledore expresses concern for Draco's soul, prompting Snape to ask, "And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?" Dumbledore says that only Snape himself knows whether saving an old man from pain and humiliation would harm his soul and confesses that he'd prefer a quick, painless death to being tortured by Bellatrix or torn by Greyback's teeth. At last, Snape nods curtly and Dumbledore thanks him. Fade to Snape and Dumbledore strolling on the Hogwarts grounds. Snape wants to know what Dumbledore is doing with Harry in their evenings together. He complains that Dumbledore trusts Harry but doesn't trust him. Dumbledore says that it's not a matter of trust. Harry needs certain information "to do what he needs to do," and Dumbledore doesn't want that information anywhere near Voldemort. Snape points out angrily that he spends time with Voldemort only because Dumbledore orders him to. Dumbledore praises Snape for following his orders so well, acknowledging the constant danger in which Snape places himself and saying that he would trust that job to no one else. He succinctly outlines Snape's duties as a double agent: "To give Voldemort what appears to be valuable information while withholding the essentials." Snape is still dissatisfied. Dumbledore, he says, is confiding crucial information to Harry who, unlike Snape, can't use Occlumency to conceal it from Voldemort, and, worse still, has a direct link to Voldemort's mind. Dumbledore informs him that Voldemort has found sharing Harry's mind an extremely painful experience that he won't care to repeat. He speaks of Voldemort's pained soul in contact with Harry's pure one and, in answer to Snape's protest that they were talking of minds, says that, in the case of Harry and Voldemort, mind and soul can't be distinguished. Changing the subject, he says bluntly, "After you have killed me, Severus?" Severus, however, has had enough and snarls at Dumbledore, "You refuse to tell me everything, yet you expect that small favor of me!" He says that Dumbledore takes too much for granted and maybe he's changed his mind. Dumbledore reminds him that he's given his word, but Snape is mutinous. Changing tactics, Dumbledore tells him to come to his office at eleven. He promises that Snape will know then that he, Dumbledore, has confidence in him. In Dumbledore's office for the eleven o'clock meeting, Snape sits still and silent as Dumbledore walks around him, telling him that Harry must not know what he's about to say until the last moment; otherwise, he may not find the strength to do what he has to do. (What that task is Dumbledore does not reveal.) He tells the astonished Snape that sometime after his death, Voldemort will fear for Nagini's life. At that point, it will be safe to tell Harry that when the Killing Curse rebounded on Voldemort because of Lily's sacrifice, a fragment of Voldemort's soul "latched itself" onto Harry's, giving him the ability to speak Parseltongue and a connection with Voldemort's mind. As long as that soul fragment remains lodged inside Harry, protected by him, Voldemort cannot die. Harry feels as if he's watching the two men through a tunnel. Snape, too, is stunned. "So the boy the boy must die?" "And Voldemort himself must do it," Dumbledore informs him. After a long silence, Snape says that he thought they were protecting the boy for Lily. Dumbledore says that they've done so because it was essential to teach Harry and let him try his strength. He fears that the connection between Harry and Voldemort is getting stronger and states his conviction that Harry will have "arranged matters" so that when he goes to meet his death, Voldemort will truly die. Snape is horrified. When Dumbledore asks how many people Snape has watched die, Snape responds, "Lately, only those whom I could not save." He accuses Dumbledore of using him, pointing out that he's lied and spied and placed himself in mortal peril to keep Lily Potter's son safe. And now Dumbledore tells him that the boy has been "raised like a pig for slaughter." Touched, Dumbledore asks whether Snape has come to care for the boy after all. "*For him?*" shouts Snape. "Expecto Patronum!" The doe Patronus bursts from Snape's wand and Dumbledore's eyes fill with tears. The scene shifts to Snape conversing with Dumbledore's portrait, which tells him that he'll have to reveal the date of Harry's departure from the Dursleys' house and plant the idea of decoys by Confunding Mundungus. He says that he's counting on Snape to play his part convincingly if he's forced to take part in the chase, or Hogwarts will be left to the "mercy" of the Carrows. Next, Snape sits facing Mundungus in an unfamiliar tavern, concentrating as he gives a dazed Mundungus the details of the decoy plan?identical Potters and Polyjuice potion?and orders Mundungus to present the suggestion as his own idea, forgetting that he heard it from Snape. Mundungus murmurs that he understands. Then Harry finds himself flying beside Snape on a broomstick at night, accompanied by hooded Death Eaters, following Lupin and the Polyjuiced George. As a Death Eater points his wand at Lupin's back, Snape aims at the Death Eater's wand hand and yells "Sectumsempra!" But the spell misses, blasting off George's ear. A moment later, Snape is kneeling in Sirius Black's bedroom, crying silently. He reads the letter from Sirius to Lily, tucks the second page containing her signature and a few words about Dumbledore inside his robes, and tears off the portion of the photo showing Lily, leaving the first page and the torn photograph on the floor. Now headmaster, Snape stands talking to Portrait Phineas, who tells him that the Trio are camping in the Forest of Dean. Phineas refers to Hermione as "the Mudblood," and Snape reprimands him sharply. Phineas corrects himself, informing Snape that "the Granger girl" mentioned the place as she opened her bag. Portrait Dumbledore instructs Snape to deliver the Sword of Gryffindor to Harry, reminding him that it "must be taken under conditions of need and valor" and warning him that Harry must not know that Snape delivered it in case Voldemort sees into Harry's mind. He tells Snape that Harry will know what to do with the sword but gives no further explanation. Snape takes the sword from a hidden cavity beside the portrait and tells him not to worry; he has a plan. Snape leaves, and Harry rises out of the Pensieve into exactly the same room. It seems to him as if Snape has just walked out the door. Discussion Questions: 1. Why do you think that JKR (or the narrator) refers to Snape as "the Prince" here and in "The Flight of the Prince" in HBP? 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of [their] dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead? 3. Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking, apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." This description seems to echo that of the dead Dumbledore in HBP-- "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms and legs, he might have been sleeping"?and that of his peacefully sleeping portrait. What do you think JKR is saying about death through these descriptions? Do they seem to refer to death in general or only to these particular deaths? 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think the password changed and who or what changed it? 5. Little Severus is described as "stringy," the same word that the narrator uses to describe both the teenage Severus and Theodore Nott in OoP. Did you think of Theo when you read the description of little Severus, and, if so, what connection, if any, did you see between the two Slytherin boys? 6. What do you make of the description of Severus as "batlike" in his oversized coat? Why does JKR continually connect Snape with bats? 7. Since Lily has no way of knowing about prejudice against Muggle- borns in the WW, why do you think she's worried that being a Muggle- born might "make a difference"? Given Severus's remark that Lily can do "loads" of magic, might the two children be talking about magical ability rather than prejudice against Muggle-borns? If not, why would he make that remark in that context? 8. Severus tells Lily that only wizards who "do really bad stuff" are sent to Azkaban. What does this remark reveal about his sense of good and evil and age nine or ten? 9. Severus is obviously lying when he denies dropping the tree branch on Petunia, but neither his words nor his "scared and defiant" expression make clear whether the magic is accidental or deliberate. Which do you think it is and why? Why doesn't something similar happen to James and Sirius in SWM where Severus is also wandless? 10. Why does Petunia call Lily a "freak" (the same word that she uses in SS/PS some twenty years later)? What justification, if any, do you see for her view that sending "weirdos" like Lily and Severus to Hogwarts will protect the "normal people"? Do you see any connection with the Statute of Secrecy? 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)? 12. James's words, "Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?" mirror Draco's words about Hufflepuff in SS/PS. What do you think that JKR is saying here about James and Draco or House prejudice in general? And what's your reaction to James's imaginary Sword of Gryffindor, raised in defense of chivalry? 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya, Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think so? 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting Severus's back? Why include that detail? 15. Lily's version of the so-called Prank?Severus "sneaking" around the Shrieking Shack and being saved by James from "whatever's down there" sounds a lot like Sirius's version in PoA except that everyone in the PoA scene knows what's down there. Do you think that Sirius is Lily's source? Why or why not? Why do you think she rejects Severus's "theory" (obviously, that Lupin is a werewolf)? 16. Aside from not wanting to repeat a nine-page scene in detail, why do you think JKR condenses Snape's worst memory to a single paragraph? Is the tactic effective? (The relevant paragraph is on page 675 of the Scholastic edition and page 542 of the Bloomsbury edition.) Note especially the last line, "Distantly, he heard Snape shout at her in his humiliation and his fury, the unforgivable word: Mudblood." 17. The adult Snape is marvelously articulate, often brilliantly sardonic and sometimes even poetic, yet the teenage Severus is often at a loss for words, and even the young adult Snape seems tongue-tied in the hilltop scene with Dumbledore. What do you think happened in the twelve or so years between the hilltop and Harry's first year at Hogwarts to turn Snape into the snarky, sarcastic Potions master that we encounter in SS/PS? 18. What do you think Dumbledore means when he tells Snape, "If I know [Harry], he will have arranged matters so that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort"? 19. We get only a few hints of what Harry is feeling as he witnesses these scenes, and yet he goes from hating Snape and wanting revenge against him to publicly defending him and ultimately naming his second son after him and Dumbledore. Aside from the shock of Snape's death, which scenes do you feel had the most impact on Harry's change of heart and why? 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter? Why did *Snape* choose them? 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the end of the chapter the first time through? 22. I've deliberately omitted questions about the much-discussed later memories involving Dumbledore and Snape. Please add any questions comments about this chapter that you'd like us to discuss. Carol NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see "HPfGU DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database Next up will be Chapter 34 (The Forest Again), from Sherry G., on or around November 24, 2008. From jkoney65 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 20:51:39 2008 From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 20:51:39 -0000 Subject: Lupin's leaving was Defining Moments (was Re: CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184813 > Pippin: > The typo says it all. Lupin didn't leave his family because he > wanted to be *with* Harry. He left because he wanted to *be* Harry. He > wanted the clear importance of a do-or-die mission from Dumbledore > instead of the uncertain rewards of being a stay-home dad. In > isolation, it does read as if Harry's jumping to conclusions, but if > you look at all of Lupin's interactions with Harry, he's only ever > wanted to be involved if something important was going on. Otherwise, > it's been out of sight, out of mind. > > Lupin left a pregnant woman with whom he'd sworn a life bond, one who > was prone to depression, and was certainly at risk considering her > situation: targeted by death eaters, jobless or soon to be, facing > rejection from her family and her husband and on top of it all the > possibility of bearing a disabled child. > > Tonks's plight, if Lupin had abandoned her, might have been very > similar to Merope's. It would be sadly ironic if Lupin had helped to > save the world from Voldemort, only to have Teddy grow up to be > another Tom. > > > Pippin > I didn't get that from the story at all. Lupin appearred to be acting like a very stressed out first time father. Add in his normal self loathing and you have someone who believes he is doing something noble by leaving his pregnant wife. While he has come to some sort of acceptance of being a werewolf for himself he hasn't been able to cope with how his being a werewolf is going to affect his wife and child. This is one of the reason's he was trying to avoid Tonk's in the first place. He got brow beaten down at the end of HBP but his fears never went away. Now with a child on the way and they came back out in force. He just needed someone to smack him down like Harry did. He seemed to be quite the excited Dad when he visited Bill's house. Jack-A-Roe From Sherry at PebTech.net Mon Nov 10 21:55:24 2008 From: Sherry at PebTech.net (Sherry) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:55:24 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184814 > CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter > 33, The Prince's Tale > > Note to everyone: Please pardon the length of this summary. The > chapter is 28 pages long (Scholastic edition). I found your summary excellent! It would be hard to write a short one for such a long chapter, so filled with crucial information. > > 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of [their] > dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the > Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you > think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead? IF he really does mean it, he probably expects the staff to cremate the remains of their dead (especially after he robbed Dumbledore's grave, he may assume that they want to avoid any contemptuous treatment of those warriors' bodies). > > 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway > leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think > the password changed and who or what changed it? Sirius Snape, the recent occupant of the office, was the one most likely to have made the change. He probably made the change soon after he became headmaster, choosing Dumbledore's name because both he and Harry (providing for Harry's access to the office in his absence) associated the room with Dumbledore. On the other hand, the Death Eaters wouldn't have expected him to apply that password, so the risk of their access to the office was very slight. > > 7. Since Lily has no way of knowing about prejudice against Muggle- > borns in the WW, why do you think she's worried that being a Muggle- > born might "make a difference"? Given Severus's remark that Lily can > do "loads" of magic, might the two children be talking about magical > ability rather than prejudice against Muggle-borns? If not, why would > he make that remark in that context? Your suggestion that they were talking about magical ability is very wise! Lily would likely have worried that as a Muggle-born with no prior experience around magic, she would struggle more than a pupil born and raised in a Wizarding family. > > 10. Why does Petunia call Lily a "freak" (the same word that she uses > in SS/PS some twenty years later)? What justification, if any, do you > see for her view that sending "weirdos" like Lily and Severus to > Hogwarts will protect the "normal people"? Do you see any connection > with the Statute of Secrecy? She is trying to make excuses for the fact that she is not going to Hogwarts. This is revealing of the world view that she was already developing--she assumed that one person had to be "better" and the other "worse;" they could not simply be different. > > 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier > onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)? Someone in the Magical world worked a spell that let them follow Lily through the gate so they could see that their little girl was all right. They would hardly be the first parents to worry about their child going to school alone for the first time. > > 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting > Severus's back? Why include that detail? Lucius' gesture illustrates that Severus finds not only acceptance, but welcome in the Slytherin House that he has found nowhere else; this insight helps readers to understand why Severus places so much importance on Slytherin, even when that loyalty interferes with his feelings for Lily. > > 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter? > Why did *Snape* choose them? She chose these elements because they illustrate the main steps in the route Snape took from his dedication to self-advancement and Voldemort, to his turning against Voldemort and secretly fighting for Harry. Snape chose them because these pivotal moments in his progress, and nothing less, could persuade Harry that he was truly out to help Harry defeat Voldemort. Severus himself, with his apparent emotional blind spots, may not have realized how much insight his memories also cast on his internal feelings. Sherry (Amontillada) From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 22:05:05 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:05:05 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184815 Thanks for the synopsis and questions, Carol! > Discussion Questions: > > 1. Why do you think that JKR (or the narrator) refers to Snape > as "the Prince" here and in "The Flight of the Prince" in HBP? Montavilla47: Very interesting question. I think it's because the Prince is the part of Snape that Harry empathizes with. In the Flight of the Prince, we got the revelation that Snape was the Prince, and by returning to that name, JKR signals Harry's potential sympathy for what he witnesses. > 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of [their] > dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the > Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you > think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead? Montavilla47: Hmm. Well, they could blast graves with their wands. I think he just means take them off the field while everyone prepares to leave fresh corpses there. It, of course, reminds me of the scene in Henry V, where Mountjoy comes to King Hal after the battle Agincourt to seek respite in which the French can count and bury their dead. (It must have taken them a long time, seeing how many they lost in that battle.) I find it rather humorous, given the way we (general we) readers tend to view Voldemort as completely self-absorbed that he's careful to follow the niceties of battle. You rarely see super- villains take time to give the opposition a breather. He was far less thoughtful about his followers, when he slaughtered a roomful of them for letting Harry get away. > 3. Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking, > apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." This > description seems to echo that of the dead Dumbledore in HBP-- > "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms > and legs, he might have been sleeping"?and that of his peacefully > sleeping portrait. What do you think JKR is saying about death > through these descriptions? Do they seem to refer to death in general > or only to these particular deaths? Montavilla47: It may be partially staying within the limitations of children's literature. How disturbing do you want to be, knowing that nine-year-olds will be reading this book, and seven-year-olds will be listening to it? In pondering this question, it suddenly struck me that there isn't one natural death in the entire series (not that there's any reason there should be one). Everyone who dies is either murdered, or dies from childbirth or in prison. (Except, did Marvolo starve to death? I forget.) And yet, they never seem to suffer much. Everyone pretty much dies instantaneously--looking either peaceful or surprised. But I do think JKR's general depiction of death is that it's painless and peaceful--compared to the struggle of life. > 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway > leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think > the password changed and who or what changed it? Montavilla47: It seems obvious to me that Snape changed it after becoming Headmaster. Although, perhaps McGonagall changed it during her brief tenure and Snape never bothered to change it to something else. I can imagine him finding the whole idea a waste of time. > 5. Little Severus is described as "stringy," the same word that the > narrator uses to describe both the teenage Severus and Theodore Nott > in OoP. Did you think of Theo when you read the description of little > Severus, and, if so, what connection, if any, did you see between the > two Slytherin boys? Montavilla47: I didn't really think of Theodore Nott. The only connection I can see is that they are both Slytherin and both loners. > 6. What do you make of the description of Severus as "batlike" in his > oversized coat? Why does JKR continually connect Snape with bats? Montavilla47: I'm not sure, although I think it's a nice image. You really get a strong impression of what he looks like in just one word. Isn't there something about bats being connected to death and the underworld? Like messengers or something? > 7. Since Lily has no way of knowing about prejudice against Muggle- > borns in the WW, why do you think she's worried that being a Muggle- > born might "make a difference"? Given Severus's remark that Lily can > do "loads" of magic, might the two children be talking about magical > ability rather than prejudice against Muggle-borns? If not, why would > he make that remark in that context? Montavilla47: She might be mean magic (since she hasn't had the opportunity to practice like a wizarding child might), and he might mean social prejudice. But, it's natural for a young girl to worry about "fitting in" in a new school that comes with a ready-made social structure. So, LIly might have been worried about being an outsider. > 8. Severus tells Lily that only wizards who "do really bad stuff" are > sent to Azkaban. What does this remark reveal about his sense of good > and evil and age nine or ten? Montavilla47: It sounds like a typical ten-year-old way of looking at the world. Bad people get put in jail, good people don't need to worry about stuff like that. > 9. Severus is obviously lying when he denies dropping the tree branch > on Petunia, but neither his words nor his "scared and defiant" > expression make clear whether the magic is accidental or deliberate. > Which do you think it is and why? Why doesn't something similar > happen to James and Sirius in SWM where Severus is also wandless? Montavilla47: I'm biased, but I think it was accidental. Even if it is outside of Snape's control, he knows too much (unlike Harry at that age) to ignore the idea that his anger at Petunia could cause magic to happen. As for why it doesn't happen when James and Sirius are tormenting him, wandless magic seems to be more accidental and less controlled. Here's an analogy. Suppose as a Muggle child, "Sam" reacts to stress by throwing up. As he gets older, he learns to control that, so, even though he is in a very stressful situation when he's sixteen, it's so ingrained in him to resist the urge to vomit that he no longer can do it--even if it might be an effective defense mechanism to vomit on the bullies. :) > 10. Why does Petunia call Lily a "freak" (the same word that she uses > in SS/PS some twenty years later)? What justification, if any, do you > see for her view that sending "weirdos" like Lily and Severus to > Hogwarts will protect the "normal people"? Do you see any connection > with the Statute of Secrecy? Montavilla47: Since you point it out, I can't wondering if Dumbledore explained it to her in similar (if less insulting) terms. It certainly seems like a kind way of letting Petunia down to explain that it's for the safety of Muggles that wizards choose to segregate themselves in a school she can't attend. > 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier > onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)? Montavilla47: I always assumed that the entrance was merely hidden during the time that the Hogwarts Express is loading and disembarking passengders. When the barrier is closed, even Harry and Ron can't through, even though they are magical. When it's open, there's nothing to say it couldn't be open to Muggles, too. It's just that most Muggles don't know it's there at all. (Until JKR spilled the beans!) > 12. James's words, "Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, > wouldn't you?" mirror Draco's words about Hufflepuff in SS/PS. What > do you think that JKR is saying here about James and Draco or House > prejudice in general? And what's your reaction to James's imaginary > Sword of Gryffindor, raised in defense of chivalry? Montavilla47: I thought she was deliberately trying to draw parallels and freak out the people who assumed that when Dumbledore compared Snape and James to Harry and Draco, it was supposed to be Draco=Snape and not Draco=James. I thought James was cute raising his little Gryffindor sword. > 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya, > Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think so? Montavilla47: I don't know why she didn't identify him. I think it was Sirius, simply because he seemed to enjoy the nickname so much. > 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting > Severus's back? Why include that detail? Montavilla47: I think it shows that Snape truly did belong to Slytherin in that they welcomed him immediately. I think it shows something nice about Lucius. He's sensitive enough to know this little boy needs assurance and he gives. I'll bet he was a terrific prefect. > 15. Lily's version of the so-called Prank?Severus "sneaking" around > the Shrieking Shack and being saved by James from "whatever's down > there" sounds a lot like Sirius's version in PoA except that everyone > in the PoA scene knows what's down there. Do you think that Sirius is > Lily's source? Why or why not? Why do you think she rejects > Severus's "theory" (obviously, that Lupin is a werewolf)? Montavilla47: Yes. I think Lily's source was most likely Sirius. Only because it would be *too* much for James to toot his horn about saving Snape. Any decent wingman would puff James up to Lily by telling him how heroic James was. About why she rejects the theory: She probably likes Lupin as a friend and it annoys her to have Snape spinning this crazy theory about him. Also, I get the strong impression that Lily is looking for reasons to push Snape away. He's hurting her socially in her House and she probably tired of his whining and general losertude. > 16. Aside from not wanting to repeat a nine-page scene in detail, why > do you think JKR condenses Snape's worst memory to a single > paragraph? Is the tactic effective? (The relevant paragraph is on > page 675 of the Scholastic edition and page 542 of the Bloomsbury > edition.) Note especially the last line, "Distantly, he heard Snape > shout at her in his humiliation and his fury, the unforgivable word: > Mudblood." Montavilla47: Hmm. I think it's okay if you're as obsessive as we (general we of this yahoogroup) are. It's already a long chapter, but it might have been nice to tell us a bit more about how Harry now interprets the scene. But, you do point out that JKR describes Snape as shouting in "humiliation and fury," which is a kinder interpretation than in OotP. > 17. The adult Snape is marvelously articulate, often brilliantly > sardonic and sometimes even poetic, yet the teenage Severus is often > at a loss for words, and even the young adult Snape seems tongue-tied > in the hilltop scene with Dumbledore. What do you think happened in > the twelve or so years between the hilltop and Harry's first year at > Hogwarts to turn Snape into the snarky, sarcastic Potions master that > we encounter in SS/PS? Montavilla47: I think that it was more that the scenes we see in the Pensieve are ones where Snape is stressed out. Hes trying *so hard* to be friends with Lily that he can barely form words--something Harry can identify with from when he was unable to string together the words to ask Cho out in GoF. > 18. What do you think Dumbledore means when he tells Snape, "If I > know [Harry], he will have arranged matters so that when he does set > out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort"? Montavilla47: I took that to mean that Harry would have then destroyed the other Horcruxes. As usual, Dumbledore was overestimating Harry's abilities. Harry didn't quite manage the task and Neville had to finish it for him. That's not a complaint or a slam against Harry. I like that it was a group effort. > 19. We get only a few hints of what Harry is feeling as he witnesses > these scenes, and yet he goes from hating Snape and wanting revenge > against him to publicly defending him and ultimately naming his > second son after him and Dumbledore. Aside from the shock of Snape's > death, which scenes do you feel had the most impact on Harry's change > of heart and why? Montavilla47: It's hard not to find that little boy adorable in his oversized clothes. But I'm guessing it was Snape meeting with Dumbledore (and the following memory where Harry sees Snape's overwhelming grief) that changed Harry's mind about Snape. Or started to change it. > 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter? > Why did *Snape* choose them? Montavilla47: I think Snape wanted to convery a few simple things to Harry. 1. He was friends with LIly. 2. He lost her friendship because of his interested in Dark Arts and stupidity in joining Voldemort. 3. He promised to protect Harry. 4. He wasn't a coward. Dumbledore said so. 5. He wasn't a Death Eater. He tried to save people--even though he often failed. 6. Harry needs to allow Voldemort to kill him. It's what Dumbledore planned. 7. Even Dead!Dumbledore's plans are pretty good ones. > 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What > surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the end of > the chapter the first time through? Montavilla47: It confirmed my view of Snape as being Dumbledore's man. I was surprised at how callous Lily and Dumbledore were towards Snape. I was disappointed in how manipulative Dumbledore was. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Nov 10 22:34:56 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:34:56 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184816 Pippin: Thanks, Carol, for the very thorough summary and questions. Nice work! > Discussion Questions: > > 1. Why do you think that JKR (or the narrator) refers to Snape > as "the Prince" here and in "The Flight of the Prince" in HBP? Pippin: I think the DH title is chosen to match the one in HBP. "Flight of the Prince" has a twofold effect. One, it continues the mystery of the Prince's identity, and two, it echoes the literal meaning of Voldemort -- "Flight from Death". > 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of [their] dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the > Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you > think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead? Pippin: Perhaps he's expecting them to magically entomb them, as with Dumbledore. Could he be looking forward to desecrating some more graves? (Yiuch, sorry I thought of that.) > > 3. Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking, > apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." This > description seems to echo that of the dead Dumbledore in HBP-- > "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms and legs, he might have been sleeping"?and that of his peacefully > sleeping portrait. What do you think JKR is saying about death > through these descriptions? Do they seem to refer to death in general or only to these particular deaths? Pippin: I don't know if there's any difference between those who die shocked and staring, and those who die and seem to be asleep. Perhaps it's meant to indicate a more enlightened attitude on the part of the latter -- that death didn't come as a shock to them because they've accepted it, like sleep, as a part of life. > 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway > leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think > the password changed and who or what changed it? Pippin: It could be a backdoor or master password arranged by Dumbledore himself. Only someone who believed that Dumbledore wouldn't be truly gone from Hogwarts as long as some there were still loyal to him would use it. > 5. Little Severus is described as "stringy," the same word that the > narrator uses to describe both the teenage Severus and Theodore Nott > in OoP. Did you think of Theo when you read the description of little Severus, and, if so, what connection, if any, did you see between the two Slytherin boys? Pippin: I didn't make the connection, but it's interesting now you point it out. I think it just shows that even in Harry's eyes, not all Slytherins exude an air of menace. > 6. What do you make of the description of Severus as "batlike" in his oversized coat? Why does JKR continually connect Snape with bats? Pippin: Because he's a vampire! (Sorry, sorry) But Siriusly, the oversize clothes are an obvious parallel with Harry. Perhaps Snape is wearing his father's hand-me-downs? Here, the bat comparison makes Snape look comical, where as in earlier canon it made him menacing. So perhaps this is JKR's way of, er, de-fanging the bat metaphor. > 7. Since Lily has no way of knowing about prejudice against Muggle- > borns in the WW, why do you think she's worried that being a Muggle- > born might "make a difference"? Given Severus's remark that Lily can > do "loads" of magic, might the two children be talking about magical > ability rather than prejudice against Muggle-borns? If not, why would he make that remark in that context? Pippin: Prejudice against outsiders isn't confined to the wizarding world. In fact, Lily's seen the way her sister treated Snape -- as "that Snape boy" whose address is not a recommendation. Snape, who probably has been told that most Muggleborns are less magically talented than average, may not think that the WW attitude towards them is prejudice. Snape might therefore naively expect that since Lily is obviously not inferior magically, she'll be treated the same as a pureblood witch. > > 8. Severus tells Lily that only wizards who "do really bad stuff" are sent to Azkaban. What does this remark reveal about his sense of good and evil and age nine or ten? Pippin: It shows he has one, at any rate. He has moral fear, unlike Voldemort. > > 9. Severus is obviously lying when he denies dropping the tree branch on Petunia, but neither his words nor his "scared and defiant" > expression make clear whether the magic is accidental or deliberate. > Which do you think it is and why? Why doesn't something similar > happen to James and Sirius in SWM where Severus is also wandless? Pippin: It's possible that Severus didn't realize at once that he'd done accidental magic, just as Harry didn't realize that he'd made the glass disappear. But accidental magic seems to happen much less frequently once wizards partner with their wands. > > 10. Why does Petunia call Lily a "freak" (the same word that she uses in SS/PS some twenty years later)? What justification, if any, do you see for her view that sending "weirdos" like Lily and Severus to Hogwarts will protect the "normal people"? Do you see any connection with the Statute of Secrecy? Pippin: There's an ongoing dialog in canon about what's monstrous and what's "interestin'". Petunia's a bit like Fudge; she doesn't want to accept anything that threatens "the prospect of disruption in his comfortable, ordered world" and she moves from someone who was "a little blustering, a little pompous, but essentially well-meaning", to someone who will get back at Lily any way she can. The Statute of Secrecy, in keeping the two worlds apart, makes life easier for the Fudges and Petunias on both sides of the divide -- at some cost to both worlds. But JKR seems to feel most people are like Fudge and Petunia, and will gladly trade wonder for predictability. > > 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier > onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)? Pippin: We've never been told that Muggles can't get through the barrier, have we? It probably opens to anyone who walks through with a will, unless it's been sealed by Dobby. > > 12. James's words, "Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, > wouldn't you?" mirror Draco's words about Hufflepuff in SS/PS. What > do you think that JKR is saying here about James and Draco or House > prejudice in general? And what's your reaction to James's imaginary > Sword of Gryffindor, raised in defense of chivalry? Pippin: First, we don't know that James is imagining the sword of Gryffindor, which is just as well, since there are no conditions of need or valor. But I think JKR is showing us that House prejudice is not the province of any particular House, and neither is bullying behavior. > 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya, > Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think so? Pippin: It doesn't matter who coined the term any more than it matters which wizard was the first to say "mudblood." > > 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting > Severus's back? Why include that detail? Pippin: It's the only time we ever see Lucius being nice to someone who's socially beneath him. In a way, it explains Snape's "sudden movement" in GoF -- it's a sign that there was some real friendship, IMO. > > 15. Lily's version of the so-called Prank?Severus "sneaking" around > the Shrieking Shack and being saved by James from "whatever's down > there" sounds a lot like Sirius's version in PoA except that everyone in the PoA scene knows what's down there. Do you think that Sirius is Lily's source? Why or why not? Why do you think she rejects > Severus's "theory" (obviously, that Lupin is a werewolf)? Pippin: Lily apparently doesn't know that Snape was able to enter the tunnel because Sirius told him how to get in. And Snape, true to the schoolboy's code, does not snitch on his enemy. It makes me wonder what he thought he was going to do with the truth about the Marauders if he had discovered it? Maybe he mostly wanted to prove to himself that they weren't as wonderful as everyone thought. I don't think Lily cares one way or the other if Lupin is a werewolf, but she's tired of hearing about it, and still more tired of Snape's idea that this ought to make some difference in her attitude towards Lupin or his friends. > > 16. Aside from not wanting to repeat a nine-page scene in detail, why do you think JKR condenses Snape's worst memory to a single > paragraph? Is the tactic effective? (The relevant paragraph is on > page 675 of the Scholastic edition and page 542 of the Bloomsbury > edition.) Note especially the last line, "Distantly, he heard Snape > shout at her in his humiliation and his fury, the unforgivable word: > Mudblood. Pippin: I think it's effective. Those who want to re-read the scene in OOP won't have any trouble finding it, since the chapter title helpfully points the way. For those who remember only vaguely but don't care to backtrack, the salient point is repeated and amplifed here. > > 17. The adult Snape is marvelously articulate, often brilliantly > sardonic and sometimes even poetic, yet the teenage Severus is often > at a loss for words, and even the young adult Snape seems tongue-tied in the hilltop scene with Dumbledore. What do you think happened in the twelve or so years between the hilltop and Harry's first year at Hogwarts to turn Snape into the snarky, sarcastic Potions master that we encounter in SS/PS? Pippin: We know from the Prince's Book that young Snape was good with words -- he just didn't have the confidence to be good at speaking. The inarticulate Snape returned in his final confrontation with Voldemort, though I think that was feigned. Perhaps having a captive audience in his classes helped him gain confidence. It might be that in earlier years, he relied even more on the blackboard --perhaps to the good fortune of those who would otherwise have been verbally scorched. > 18. What do you think Dumbledore means when he tells Snape, "If I > know [Harry], he will have arranged matters so that when he does set > out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort"? Pippin: I think that's a hint that Dumbledore has guessed what Harry could do -- not only dispose of the horcruxes but use the power of his death to cast a spell of protection on Voldemort's enemies > 19. We get only a few hints of what Harry is feeling as he witnesses > these scenes, and yet he goes from hating Snape and wanting revenge > against him to publicly defending him and ultimately naming his > second son after him and Dumbledore. Aside from the shock of Snape's > death, which scenes do you feel had the most impact on Harry's change of heart and why? Pippin: Psychological research has shown that knowing about a friendship between a member of your group and someone from a group that is traditionally opposed can soften attitudes and lessen prejudice, even in the absence of any other anti-prejudice teaching. For Harry just to see that there had once been love and trust between Lily and Snape probably made all the difference in the world to him. > > 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter? > Why did *Snape* choose them? Pippin: We write sometimes as if JKR had the whole history of the WW and a minute-by-minute biography of every character in front of her. But everything is shaped (and in JKR's case, invented) around what Harry needs to know. For Snape, IMO, it's the same. > 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What > surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the end of > the chapter the first time through? Pippin: I was always a LOLLIPOPS supporter, so it was good to have the confirmation I'd been hoping for, and expecting since The Silver Doe. For the first time, though, I understood the complaints that Snape/Lily would make Snape just too pathetic. (*I* don't think he's too pathetic -- I'm in awe that he could carry on in spite of such a brutal psychological handicap--but now at least I understand the other point of view.) On first reading, I, like Harry, didn't take time to react. The situation was too dire. Thanks again, Carol, and thanks to anyone whose read this far. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 22:37:45 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:37:45 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184817 Discussion Questions: 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of [their] dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead? Alla: Seriously ? I have no idea, jokingly ? feed to Nagini, seems to be Voldemort's way of disposing of the dead, maybe he expects Hogwarts has something similar. 3. Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking, apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." This description seems to echo that of the dead Dumbledore in HBP-- "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms and legs, he might have been sleeping"?and that of his peacefully sleeping portrait. What do you think JKR is saying about death through these descriptions? Do they seem to refer to death in general or only to these particular deaths? Alla: That by dying their souls went to better place, more peaceful, etc. And yes, I think it refers to the death in general in the books. 9. Severus is obviously lying when he denies dropping the tree branch on Petunia, but neither his words nor his "scared and defiant" expression make clear whether the magic is accidental or deliberate. Which do you think it is and why? Why doesn't something similar happen to James and Sirius in SWM where Severus is also wandless? Alla: I would say that your second question presupposes the answer that it is accidental, so since I do not think that it was accidental, I cannot answer the second part. I think it was very deliberate, I think Severus was already that cruel and did not want to share Lily with anybody. JMO of course. 18. What do you think Dumbledore means when he tells Snape, "If I know [Harry], he will have arranged matters so that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort"? Alla: Oh, Dumbledore knows Harry well all right. I just think he means that when Harry knows all the particulars, he will definitely go and sacrifice himself permanently, or so Harry thinks. 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter? Why did *Snape* choose them? Alla: I do not believe that Snape chose them. I think he started powering all the memories to pensieve, and all that he had in his head went there. I think if nothing else he was too weak to pick and choose the memories. 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the end of the chapter the first time through? Alla: Well, certainly Snape as Dumbledore man should have surprised me had we not discussed it for so long, so even though I was hoping it will not come true, I always kept the possibility in mind and I read the spoilers anyways, so I knew before that chapter that he was Dumbledore's man. Thank you for the questions, Carol. From leahstill at hotmail.com Tue Nov 11 01:44:45 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 01:44:45 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184818 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Discussion Questions: > > 1. Why do you think that JKR (or the narrator) refers to Snape > as "the Prince" here and in "The Flight of the Prince" in HBP? Leah: I agree with the idea that the Prince is Harry's positive link to Snape. In HBP, Harry tries to find out who the Prince is, finds out and then'loses' him almost simultaneously, and now gets him back. > > 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of [their] > dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the > Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you > think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead? Leah: I was thinking more of this as giving them an opportunity to go and collect the bodies from the field of battle,as we see Oliver and Neville carrying in Colin, rather than a burial or cremation, a bit like a truce to get bodies from No Man's Land in WW1. > > 3. Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking, > apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." This > description seems to echo that of the dead Dumbledore in HBP-- > "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms > and legs, he might have been sleeping"?and that of his peacefully > sleeping portrait. What do you think JKR is saying about death > through these descriptions? Do they seem to refer to death in general > or only to these particular deaths? Leah: It is slightly different from the lights going out in Dobby's eyes, or something leaving Snape's eyes, but Harry is looking at the latter deaths close up as they happen; this is a description of bodies laid out to rest. I don't think there's anything more significant than a suggestion of being at peace. JKR thinks accepting death is a good thing after all. > > 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway > leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think > the password changed and who or what changed it? Leah: I always thought it was Snape's password, changed when he became headmaster. I would think a new headmaster would be expected to change to a new password. It signifies Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore, and he can always tell the Death Eaters that he uses it to gloat over his killing. Did he perhaps envisage Harry needing to get to the office, and think of a word that was likely to come to Harry's mind when he stood outside the office? If so, perhaps he only changed the password when he heard that Harry was at Hogwarts. > > 5. Little Severus is described as "stringy," the same word that the > narrator uses to describe both the teenage Severus and Theodore Nott > in OoP. Did you think of Theo when you read the description of little > Severus, and, if so, what connection, if any, did you see between the > two Slytherin boys? Leah: I don't know if I thought of it on first reading, but it did occur to me later. They both seem to have been isolated boys. Severus became a Death Eater and Theodore didn't, although his father was one. Perhaps Theodore was a stronger character as a teenager, perhaps he was put off by his father, or perhaps the difference is due to having Snape rather than Slughorn as Head of House. I would have liked to know more about Theodore. > > 6. What do you make of the description of Severus as "batlike" in his > oversized coat? Why does JKR continually connect Snape with bats? Leah: He's a bat animagus??? The bat description is part of the set up of sinister Death Eater Snape, I think, and this defuses that image. > > 7. Since Lily has no way of knowing about prejudice against Muggle- > borns in the WW, why do you think she's worried that being a Muggle- > born might "make a difference"? Given Severus's remark that Lily can > do "loads" of magic, might the two children be talking about magical > ability rather than prejudice against Muggle-borns? If not, why would > he make that remark in that context? Leah: Severus tells Lily that someone will come to her house to explain about Hogwarts because she's Muggleborn, so he's presumably explained about purebloods and halfbloods and Muggleborns. Perhaps Lily picked up some hesitation from him, or if he described purebloods as something like 'their families have been wizards forever', she might well be concerned about fitting in. I like the idea that she's worried about being less magical, but I think Severus' slight hesitation means that he at least is thinking about prejudice. Perhaps he believes that the strength of Lily's magic will help her ovecome prejudice. > > 8. Severus tells Lily that only wizards who "do really bad stuff" are > sent to Azkaban. What does this remark reveal about his sense of good > and evil and age nine or ten? Leah: He has a touching faith in the justice system of the Wizarding World! To answer the question, it shows that he has a sense of good and evil, and that evil should be punished, therefore differentiating him from Voldemort. > > 9. Severus is obviously lying when he denies dropping the tree branch > on Petunia, but neither his words nor his "scared and defiant" > expression make clear whether the magic is accidental or deliberate. > Which do you think it is and why? Why doesn't something similar > happen to James and Sirius in SWM where Severus is also wandless? Leah: I think he dislikes and is angry with Petunia, but that this is accidental magic, in the same way that Harry dislikes and is angry with Aunt Marge, but doesn't mean to inflate her. We're shown or hear of several examples of accidental magic by children, and this just read like another example. I think if JKR had meant it to be deliberate she would have used language to make it appear more non- accidental than it does. Accidental magic seems to be unfocused magic, when the child's emotions take over, and allow the child's magic to flow freely. Harry isn't, for example. thinking of using magic on Marge, he is just overwhelmed by anger. In SWM, Severus may be angry and humiliated, but he is definitely in control of his magic, thinking of using it on James and Sirius, and doing so when he gets a chance, so I think he is too focused for wandless magic to occur. > > 10. Why does Petunia call Lily a "freak" (the same word that she uses > in SS/PS some twenty years later)? What justification, if any, do you > see for her view that sending "weirdos" like Lily and Severus to > Hogwarts will protect the "normal people"? Do you see any connection > with the Statute of Secrecy? Leah: If Petunia can't have magic, she wants to believe that she wouldn't want it anyway, that it's a curse not a blessing. I suppose there is a sort of reversal of the Statute of Secrecy, which is meant to protect witches and wizards against Muggles, while Petunia sees Hogwarts as protecting Muggles from magic. > > 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier > onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)? Leah: Do we know that Muggle parents can't get through? Do we see Hermione on the platform at all, on occasions when she's not arrived with the Weasleys? (Sorry, haven't got the books available). > > 12. James's words, "Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, > wouldn't you?" mirror Draco's words about Hufflepuff in SS/PS. What > do you think that JKR is saying here about James and Draco or House > prejudice in general? And what's your reaction to James's imaginary > Sword of Gryffindor, raised in defense of chivalry? Leah: The Slytherin comment is, I think, meant to highlight what Dumbledore meant when he cryptically said in PS/SS that the relationship between James and Severus was like that of Harry and Draco, ie James = Draco. The imaginary sword, at which Severus made a derisory sound:- I thought there was a little bit of the English class system there, James as the declamatory public schoolboy and working class Severus thinking "What a berk". (Later, he gets much more dramatic himself, of course). On a second reading, I thought there was some irony intended there, as it was 'Snivellus' who would one day bring the sword to James' more worthy son. Generally, the whole passage seemed to be saying that house prejudice and possibly the house system was a Bad Thing, so it was disappointing to see it recur in the Epilogue. > > 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya, > Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think so? Leah: If it's meant to be either James or Sirius, I would say Sirius, as he invented the name, and uses it again in SWM. However, they were described as being in a group of 'rowdy boys', so it doesn't have to be either of them, it could be anyone of the group, and perhaps shows Severus becoming an accepted target. > > 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting > Severus's back? Why include that detail? Leah: It suggests the beginning of the friendship between Lucius and Snape which we seen hinted at in other books. It shows Snape getting some acceptance in Slytherin, and perhaps hints at one of the reasons he may have become a Death Eater. > > 15. Lily's version of the so-called Prank?Severus "sneaking" around > the Shrieking Shack and being saved by James from "whatever's down > there" sounds a lot like Sirius's version in PoA except that everyone > in the PoA scene knows what's down there. Do you think that Sirius is > Lily's source? Why or why not? Why do you think she rejects > Severus's "theory" (obviously, that Lupin is a werewolf)? Leah: I'm certain Lily heard about it from one of the Marauders, and Sirius making sure Lily heard favourable reports about James sounds feasible. Does she reject the theory? My impression was that she didn't want to get drawn into that discussion rather than simply disagreeing. > > 16. Aside from not wanting to repeat a nine-page scene in detail, why > do you think JKR condenses Snape's worst memory to a single > paragraph? Is the tactic effective? (The relevant paragraph is on > page 675 of the Scholastic edition and page 542 of the Bloomsbury > edition.) Note especially the last line, "Distantly, he heard Snape > shout at her in his humiliation and his fury, the unforgivable word: > Mudblood." Leah: It would have been pretty boring to repeat it again, so this worked quite well for me. It is a well known scene, so most readers would be familiar with it. Here, JKR is able to emphasise Severus' emotional state, which we guessed at in the original scene - and that might also be a sign of Harry's empathy with Snape growing through the memories. What JKR writes here is not quite accurate - Severus doesn't originally shout the word Mudblood at Lily-he tells Jamea that he doesn't want help from a 'filthy little Mudblood'. I don't know whether this version is simply a Flint or the emphasis has changed to make the reader more sympathetic to Snape - or perhaps it's how Harry remembers the scene. > > 17. The adult Snape is marvelously articulate, often brilliantly > sardonic and sometimes even poetic, yet the teenage Severus is often > at a loss for words, and even the young adult Snape seems tongue- tied > in the hilltop scene with Dumbledore. What do you think happened in > the twelve or so years between the hilltop and Harry's first year at > Hogwarts to turn Snape into the snarky, sarcastic Potions master that > we encounter in SS/PS? Leah: I got the impression that once he got over his initial encounter with Lily, small Severus was quite articulate. He's obviously telling Lily a lot of details about the magical world and making it fascinating, and he's described as 'brimful of confidence'. His 'brawny not brainy' comment on the Hogwarts Express is nicely alliterative and quite Snapish. When we see Teenage Severus, he's obviously at a disadvantage in being a teenage boy with the girl he fancies, but we also don't see him in 'normal' circumstances. Lupin says in POA that Dumbledore forebade Snape from talking about the Prank, so he's struggling to tell Lily without actually doing so. In the 'Portrait' scene, he's clearly also under a lot of emotional strain, as he is the hilltop scene with Dumbledore,when he's scared and guilty and desperate. So I think his years of teaching and housemastering restored the articulate Snape that was always there but got misplaced somewhat during adolescence. > > 18. What do you think Dumbledore means when he tells Snape, "If I > know [Harry], he will have arranged matters so that when he does set > out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort"? Leah: I understood it simply to mean that Harry would have destroyed all the Horcruxes. I assume this is based on the assumption that Voldemort would not protect Nagini until the other Horcruxes were destroyed,(quite an assumption) and that Harry will ensure Nagini's destruction before going to his death. > > 19. We get only a few hints of what Harry is feeling as he witnesses > these scenes, and yet he goes from hating Snape and wanting revenge > against him to publicly defending him and ultimately naming his > second son after him and Dumbledore. Aside from the shock of Snape's > death, which scenes do you feel had the most impact on Harry's change > of heart and why? Leah: I don't see there as being any one scene that would particularly stand out. The Lily track of memories would be important in helping Harry understand Snape, and giving Harry a personal connection with him, while the Dumbledore scenes would have been vital in explaining the truth about Snape's loyalties. Perhaps if any one scene did make more impact than others, it would be the casting of the doe patronus, which links the Lily and the loyalty tracks, and explains something that actually had happened to Harry and had true meaning for him. > > 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter? > Why did *Snape* choose them? LeAH: Both JKR and Snape chose them for the reasons given above. I think Snape also wanted Harry to 'look at' him and see the truth which he had previously insisted on hidig away. I disagree with Alla that the memories were not chosen by Snape. These were chronological memories of significant events. Had Snape just been pouring out memories at random, Harry would have had scenes of Snape having dinner or discussing Quiddich with Malfoy etc. I think Snape had probably mentally set these memories aside in some way, which I assume a skilled Occlumens could do, perhaps intending for Harry to view them in a pensieve, so he did not have to do the sorting in his dying moments. > > 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What > surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the end of > the chapter the first time through? Leah: I had Snape pegged as Dumbledore's man, so although it was good to get that confirmed, it was no great revelation. I was disappointed initially that it was all about Lily, though subsequently I have come to quite like the way that worked dramatically. I was surprised that SWM appeared to occur after the Prank; I think like a lot of people I assumed that the Prank would have been a wake-up call to James, but clearly not. I was disappointed that Snape appeared to be so much PortraitDumbledore's yes man, though on reflection he was acting on such limited information that his options were limited. I disliked Dumbledore, and I was very disappointed in what we saw of Lily, whom I had hoped to like, and didn't at all. Thanks for undertaking that mammoth chapter, Carol and for the interesting questions. Leah From hpfgu.elves at gmail.com Tue Nov 11 03:09:46 2008 From: hpfgu.elves at gmail.com (hpfgu_elves) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:09:46 -0000 Subject: ADMIN Greetings from the Hexquarters! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184819 We would like to remind everyone that this list is a closed community whose archives are restricted to members only. While it is, of course, permissible to repost your own posts to other forums we ask that you respect the privacy of your fellow list members and not repost *their* posts outside the HPforGrownups list. Linking to posts at HPfGU with a short introduction is fine, but extensive quotation from HPfGU posts elsewhere in cyberspace is frowned upon, especially by elves whose butterbeer supply has run low. Thank you! List Elves From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 11 04:16:01 2008 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 04:16:01 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184820 Carol: > 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of > [their] dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in > the Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do > you think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead? SSSusan: I don't think he did mean what he said, actually. I think he was issuing the final ultimatum: one hour, that's it. I don't think he suddenly developed a measure of compassion for the other side & their desire to bury or otherwise dispose of their dead. Heck, it may have been to give himself to strategize with his own troops. Carol: > > 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway > > leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you > > think the password changed and who or what changed it? Pippin: > It could be a backdoor or master password arranged by Dumbledore > himself. Only someone who believed that Dumbledore wouldn't be truly > gone from Hogwarts as long as some there were still loyal to him > would use it. SSSusan: Yes!! This is what I think exactly, Pippin. (I told you, didn't I, Carol? ;)) Carol: > > 6. What do you make of the description of Severus as "batlike" in > > his oversized coat? Why does JKR continually connect Snape with > > bats? Pippin: > Because he's a vampire! (Sorry, sorry) But Siriusly, the oversize > clothes are an obvious parallel with Harry. Perhaps Snape is wearing > his father's hand-me-downs? Here, the bat comparison makes Snape > look comical, where as in earlier canon it made him menacing. So > perhaps this is JKR's way of, er, de-fanging the bat metaphor. SSSusan: Or perhaps it was her way of having a nice laugh along with us... sort of one last nod to the fans who had long held the belief in vampire!Snape. Hey, it's possible! Carol: > > 8. Severus tells Lily that only wizards who "do really bad stuff" > > are sent to Azkaban. What does this remark reveal about his sense > > of good and evil and age nine or ten? Pippin: > It shows he has one, at any rate. He has moral fear, unlike > Voldemort. SSSusan: True, that. But it also raises the question, then, of when he *lost* it. How/When/Why did he change from this 9-or-10-year-old, recognizing "really bad stuff," to the 5th year being chastized by Lily for tolerating Avery & Mulciber and to a young man who'd actually join the Death Eaters? Did he lose that sense of good & evil, or did he just set it aside in an effort to fit in? Carol: > > 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the > > barrier onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)? Pippin: > We've never been told that Muggles can't get through the barrier, > have we? SSSusan: This was similar to my thought: how do we know that parents of Muggleborns don't often go through? Or perhaps at least get to go through their first year of packing off their child? I could imagine, when a Hogwarts representative came to deliver the details to Muggle parents of their child's magical abilities, also delivering some instructions about using Owl Post, getting to Platform 9 3/4, and perhaps getting through the barrier onto it. Carol: > 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya, > Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think > so? SSSusan: I think I have always imagined that it was Sirius, but I've no idea why I think so. ;) Carol: > 16. Aside from not wanting to repeat a nine-page scene in detail, > why do you think JKR condenses Snape's worst memory to a single > paragraph? Is the tactic effective? (The relevant paragraph is on > page 675 of the Scholastic edition and page 542 of the Bloomsbury > edition.) Note especially the last line, "Distantly, he heard Snape > shout at her in his humiliation and his fury, the unforgivable word: > Mudblood. SSSusan: I honestly just think JKR didn't see the need. We've all seen it. Poor Harry has entered into it and was made extremely uncomfortable by what he witnessed there. Why replay it in detail now? It's enough to just re-set the context for the new material which mattered more for Harry at this moment: the scene afterwards where Snape tries to apologize to Lily and their friendship is (pardon the pun) *severed*. Carol: > 17. The adult Snape is marvelously articulate, often brilliantly > sardonic and sometimes even poetic, yet the teenage Severus is often > at a loss for words, and even the young adult Snape seems > tongue-tied in the hilltop scene with Dumbledore. What do you think > happened in the twelve or so years between the hilltop and Harry's > first year at Hogwarts to turn Snape into the snarky, sarcastic > Potions master that we encounter in SS/PS? SSSusan: I think just the passage of many years. We know that those years did NOT heal Snape, did NOT result in his having forgotten Lily nor fallen out of love with her. But I think that many years of just time passing, and being *away* in large part from the DEs and Voldemort, gave Snape the time to get more comfortable in himself. Let's face it, facing students in a Potions classroom is nothing like living through the student years as an outsider & outcast. It's also nothing like facing Voldemort's kill-you-on-a-whim wrath. Having years of sort of mundane existence, alongside many of the same colleagues for a good length of time, under DD's tutelage, could easily have allowed him to develop that side of himself where he has some self-confidence and some definite skill & talent, as well as bring about the snarky, sarcastic side that he so often showed to students. That is, those years teaching at Hogwarts are both comfortable (hence, the confidence) and tedious (hence, the snarkiness), if that makes sense. Carol: > 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter? > Why did *Snape* choose them? SSSusan: One thing I've said since first completing DH is that this was Snape's gift to Harry. It's why, imo, he said "Look... at... me." Not just so he could see Harry's/Lily's eyes once more, but also because he knew that the memories he was giving to Harry would truly allow Harry to *look* at Severus Snape. And looking at Severus Snape -- even, and especially, those most painful, intimate scenes -- would allow Harry to see all he needed to see in order to understand. He *had* to give Harry a certain portion of them for Harry to know what he needed to do, but he gave him *more,* I am convinced, because he knew it would help Harry to not just get what was necessary but to UNDERSTAND. Interesting. This just hit me. For years I argued, as a former high school teacher, that Snape was not an effective teacher with the two students who most needed him to utilize different methods than he did: Harry & Neville. I argued that, knowing one of them was Prophecy Boy meant that Snape should have done everything he could to make sure those two learned ALL they were truly capable of learning. Given their ages and Snape's experience and skill, I felt more of the onus was upon Snape to work to get those boys to truly *get* things, to truly understand. Huh. Look what Snape did here at the end. Carol: > 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What > surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the end of > the chapter the first time through? SSSusan: Eh, can anyone really remember what she felt the first time through? *Now* I wish I'd kept a journal, actually written down my gasps & my groans & my ahas! I was pleased to get confirmation that things *had* played out as I'd thought re: DD instructing Snape to kill him and that DD had felt (or at least implied that he felt) that there *is* a difference in what happens to the soul of someone who murders vs. the soul of someone who kills an old man at his own request. I also had felt LOLLIPOPS would prove out somehow, but I had not anticipated their relationship having gone back so very far, that Severus & Lily had had a true, two-way, long-lasting friendship. So that surprised me, but it worked for me, too -- provided an explanation for a lot of things which rang quite true. As to how I felt about Snape, there was a bit of, "Wow, that's truly pathetic" that he could not move beyond Lily. But I also felt a sense of gratefulness towards Snape. For what he shared with Harry, of course. And also for finding out he'd been willing to spit some things at DD that I thought needed to be spit ("like a pig for slaughter"). Siriusly Snapey Susan From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 04:46:39 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 04:46:39 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184821 Zara: Thank you, Carol, for the detailed summary and long list of discussion questions about my favorite chapter! > Carol: > Note to everyone: Please pardon the length of this summary. The > chapter is 28 pages long (Scholastic edition). You mean Bloomsbury, I presume. It runs from p. 659 to p. 690 in my Scholastic edition, which is, counting half-pages. 32 pages long. That makes it (by a page) the longest chapter in the series, incidentally. > Carol: > Discussion Questions: > 1. Why do you think that JKR (or the narrator) refers to Snape > as "the Prince" here and in "The Flight of the Prince" in HBP? Zara: In HBP, this was one of two chapters that referred to the title character. In the first "The Half-Blood Prince" this character was introduced (both as the mysterious writer of matrginal notes in Harry's used text, and as present day Professor Snape, taching his first DADA class to Harry). I think it was for symmetry, and to formally make knwn that the mystery of the "Prince" was being introduced, and then resolved. > 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of [their] > dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the > Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you > think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead? Zara: I think he just meant "prepare for proper disposition", as indeed the defenders of the castle did, collecting the fallen, and laying them out carefully and beginning to mourn them. The next step might be a burial ceremony, or cremation, or what have you, but I don't think Voldemort was suggesting that had to be finished in an hour. > 3. Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking, > apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." Zara: We do not see these two in the place and time of their death, unlike Dumbledore. I took this description to indicate that someone found them, and carefully laid them on the table in a natural and dignified body position and closed their eyes. > 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway > leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think > the password changed and who or what changed it? Zara: I think Snape changed it, he'd ahve the authority to. When, I am not clear on. I think anytime is plausible. If early, it could be passed off to the Carrows and other staff as a sick joke. Or maybe it was as he left to look for Harry in "The Sacking of Severus Snape". > 6. What do you make of the description of Severus as "batlike" in his > oversized coat? Why does JKR continually connect Snape with bats? Zara: The comparison to bats, I think, was a way to make him seem a negative, "dark" character. He no longer seems batlike, swooping out of the office with teh Sword of Gryffindor in his hands. > 7. Since Lily has no way of knowing about prejudice against Muggle- > borns in the WW, why do you think she's worried that being a Muggle- > born might "make a difference"? Given Severus's remark that Lily can > do "loads" of magic, might the two children be talking about magical > ability rather than prejudice against Muggle-borns? If not, why would > he make that remark in that context? Zara: I think she asked, because Sev made it clear she would be handled differently by the school. (Not an Owl, someone coming to explain it all to her parents). If he is aware of the standard line of anti- Muggle-born proaganda (that we first encounter earlier in DH), his comment about her magic ability is perfectly apropos. She can't have stolen someone's wand to impersonate a witch, she quite clearly has innate magic she uses *without* a wand. > 8. Severus tells Lily that only wizards who "do really bad stuff" are > sent to Azkaban. What does this remark reveal about his sense of good > and evil and age nine or ten? Zara: It's pretty normal. > 9. Severus is obviously lying when he denies dropping the tree branch > on Petunia, but neither his words nor his "scared and defiant" > expression make clear whether the magic is accidental or deliberate. > Which do you think it is and why? Zara: I think it was accidental. His confusion makes more sense to me in that light. His initial statement, that he did not *make* it happen, would then be true in a sense of lack of volition. Also, he could be conmfused abouyt how to explain accidental magic to Lily, whom we have not actually seen experience any - she seems to do magic when she wants to, like Tom Riddle could. If we were supposed to think Snape could - I would have liked more than a single, ambiguous example to suggest it. > Why doesn't something similar > happen to James and Sirius in SWM where Severus is also wandless? Zara: Because once wizards start to train in magic properly, using wands, I think they tend not to do accidental magic as much anymore. > 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier > onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)? Zara: We are never told Muggles cannot pass the barrier. I see no reasont o suppose Muggles who know the secret, and attempt to walk through the wall with conviction, could not get through. Or maybe Lily had to sit them all on a cart and push. More later! From zgirnius at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 05:14:48 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 05:14:48 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184822 > Carol: > > 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya, > > Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think > > so? > > SSSusan: > I think I have always imagined that it was Sirius, but I've no idea > why I think so. ;) Zara: I think it was Sirius too. When Lily decides to leave, both boys mock her. Then James trips Sev, and then someone says "See ya, Snivellus!" It makes sense that it is Sirius, because James has already taken his parting shot by tripping Sev. I believe this is what Rowling had in mind and therefore did not see the need to clarify. From leahstill at hotmail.com Tue Nov 11 09:22:53 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:22:53 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184823 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > >> Carol: > > > 8. Severus tells Lily that only wizards who "do really bad stuff" > > > are sent to Azkaban. What does this remark reveal about his sense > > > of good and evil and age nine or ten? > > Pippin: > > It shows he has one, at any rate. He has moral fear, unlike > > Voldemort. > > SSSusan: > True, that. But it also raises the question, then, of when he *lost* > it. How/When/Why did he change from this 9-or-10-year-old, > recognizing "really bad stuff," to the 5th year being chastized by > Lily for tolerating Avery & Mulciber and to a young man who'd > actually join the Death Eaters? Did he lose that sense of good & > evil, or did he just set it aside in an effort to fit in? Leah: We don't know what little Severus recognised as 'really bad stuff'. I assume that like most small children, he would think killing people is wrong, stealing is wrong, perhaps telling lies is wrong (that little hesitation when Lily asks if being a Muggleborn will make a difference). All we can say from this passage is that unlike Voldemort Snape is not criminally insane, he appreciates that there should be a moral code, but we can't say what his moral code was or is when he joins the Death Eaters, though we see it more clearly towards the end of his life. As for Avery and Mulciber, perhaps he genuinely did not see any difference between whatever they were intending to do to Mary, and 'what Potter and his mates get up to', hexing Aubrey's head for example. I imagine he thought trying to get him killed or turned by werewolf was 'really bad stuff', which doesn't seem to get severely punished by the resident 'good' authority. We don't really know why Snape joined the Death Eaters. We do know Regulus didn't know quite what was involved until after he joined up. I think joining the Death Eaters or joining the Order or the Aurors was akin to joining an army. If you think the aims of protecting the wizarding world from Muggles is a good thing, or defeating dark wizards is a good thing, you may be prepared to do things that you would otherwise find immoral, such as killing, using Unforgiveables etc. > Carol: > > 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya, > > Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think > > so? > > SSSusan: > I think I have always imagined that it was Sirius, but I've no idea > why I think so. ;) Leah: Just a further thought on that. "See ya", is a slang expression, quite yobbish really, so I wonder if Sirius, from an upper class pureblood family, and talking to upper class pureblood James, would use that expression. So I think it's more likely to be one of the other 'rowdy boys' picking up on what's going on. Leah From saturniia at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 05:13:08 2008 From: saturniia at yahoo.com (saturniia) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 05:13:08 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184824 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > Discussion Questions: > > 1. Why do you think that JKR (or the narrator) refers to Snape > as "the Prince" here and in "The Flight of the Prince" in HBP? I think she's saying that Snape had a certain amount of class. He wasn't as noble as Dumbledore or Harry, but he did show great character in not quitting the Death Eaters (as Regulus would have done had he not decided to screw over Voldie instead), in acting as Dumbledore's confidante, and in acting with a certain fairness toward the son of his greatest personal rival. > 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of > [their] dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in > the Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do > you think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead? Considering the fact that there's no evidence Voldemort would hesitate to use the dead bodies of Order members and Hogwarts students and alumni as inferi, I think he means "burn the bodies with due ceremony" when he says "dispose of [their] dead with dignity". Of course, he probably hopes they *won't*, but he's giving them the option because he thinks he's won. If they give over Potter, only he dies. The rest of them are just enslaved. If they don't give over Potter, he'll use any bodies he can animate in order to kill them all. Fallen comrades become enemies who can't be stopped. > 3. Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking, > apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." This > description seems to echo that of the dead Dumbledore in HBP-- > "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his > arms and legs, he might have been sleeping"?and that of his > peacefully sleeping portrait. What do you think JKR is saying about > death through these descriptions? Do they seem to refer to death in > general or only to these particular deaths? I think she's saying that death can be a welcome respite for one who dedicates his or her life to fighting for a just cause. I think it refers to any death where the decedant is humanoid and the author does not wish to generate shock or outrage. > 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway > leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think > the password changed and who or what changed it? I think it depends on how much the castle knows without being told. *If* the castle knows when a legitimate headmaster dies, and *if* it knows to keep the headmaster's office on lockdown during a crisis situation, then Snape could have said "If I die, let someone in the office if his password is 'Dumbledore'" before he left the last time before/during the battle. Or maybe it's something that would let any right person into the unoccupied office. In other words, it's one of the first Headmasters' tests; Gryffindor's spell measures bravery or valor, Hufflepuff's assesses the likelihood that the seeker acts in deference to his or her community, Slytherin's tests whether the subject can obtain the best results for the school, and Ravenclaw would want a quester to be clever enough to answer an unspoken riddle. > 8. Severus tells Lily that only wizards who "do really bad stuff" > are sent to Azkaban. What does this remark reveal about his sense > of good and evil and age nine or ten? His sense of good and evil is average for a child of his age. He has a high level of faith in his community's government and judicial system, and he appreciates that good wizards, neutral wizards who do not harm others, and children under the age of eleven (who often cannot control the effects of their magic) will not get sent to Azkaban for accidental wizardry, or wearing robes in a Muggle village when it's not Halloween, or committing a Quidditch violation. > 9. Severus is obviously lying when he denies dropping the tree > branch on Petunia, but neither his words nor his "scared and > defiant" expression make clear whether the magic is accidental or > deliberate. Which do you think it is and why? Why doesn't something > similar happen to James and Sirius in SWM where Severus is also > wandless? I think the magic was accidental, to a point. Severus probably wished something unfortunate happened to Petunia, but had no idea what would happen if his magic responded to that wish. Snape's talented, but he lives in a Muggle village. He's not the sort of wizard who'd have the luxury of practicing spells with his mother's wand before he gets his own. In SWM, Severus is older and a student. His accidental magic doesn't work for the same reason Harry's accidental magic no longer grows his hair quickly or whisks him out of harm's way; as a student, he's learned to expect magic to respond to conscious will. The implication is that accidental magic is a baby's tool. Students, even ones with their robes about their ears and their underpants showing, are not babies. Responding reflexively would be even more embarassing than not responding at all. > 10. Why does Petunia call Lily a "freak" (the same word that she > uses in SS/PS some twenty years later)? What justification, if any, > do you see for her view that sending "weirdos" like Lily and > Severus to Hogwarts will protect the "normal people"? Do you see > any connection with the Statute of Secrecy? Lily's a "freak" because magic is something Petunia doesn't understand, and also because she's jealous that this mysterious ability makes her already less plain, less ordinary sister even more special. Her view that "weirdos" go to Hogwarts is personal mythology that protects her pride. What connection is there with the Statute of Secrecy? I see none, except that it might make Petunia even more resentful. Not only does Petunia resent magic, but she can't even talk to her Muggle friends about what a freak her sister is, going off to some freaky school to study freaky subjects and play or watch freaky games. > 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting > Severus's back? Why include that detail? I don't think there's any significance beyond the appearance that all houses greet new students the same way, with varying degrees of enthusiasm. > 15. Lily's version of the so-called Prank?Severus "sneaking" around > the Shrieking Shack and being saved by James from "whatever's down > there" sounds a lot like Sirius's version in PoA except that > everyone in the PoA scene knows what's down there. Do you think > that Sirius is Lily's source? Why or why not? Why do you think she > rejects Severus's "theory" (obviously, that Lupin is a werewolf)? If Lily doesn't know Remus is a werewolf, yes, I think Sirius is her source. It's the sort of thing Sirius would brag about to make his best friend seem more important to the girl he likes. In that scenario, Lily rejects Severus's theory because someone like Lupin, a werewolf? It's extremely unlikely. Why would a werewolf attend Hogwarts? However, it's possible clever Lily noticed the same things Severus noticed, reached the same conclusion Severus reached, and reacted very differently from the way Severus reacted. Lily would likely be both more direct and more compassionate toward Remus, asking him if he's a werewolf, and trying to understand that if he's in the shack he's nearly harmless during the full moon. *If* Lily knew Remus was a werewolf, all any of the four would have to say is that Severus tried to get into the shack and that James stopped him. "Whatever's down there" becomes a euphemism for "Remus as a werewolf", and Lily rejects his theory in order to throw him off the scent or try to guarantee his silence. > 16. Aside from not wanting to repeat a nine-page scene in detail, > why do you think JKR condenses Snape's worst memory to a single > paragraph? Is the tactic effective? (The relevant paragraph is on > page 675 of the Scholastic edition and page 542 of the Bloomsbury > edition.) Note especially the last line, "Distantly, he heard Snape > shout at her in his humiliation and his fury, the unforgivable word: > Mudblood." In this chapter, the incident isn't relevant; all charcters present and all readers who remember earlier books know how the incident occured. What *is* relevant is the insult and the effect it had on Lily and Severus's increasingly strained friendship. > 17. The adult Snape is marvelously articulate, often brilliantly > sardonic and sometimes even poetic, yet the teenage Severus is often > at a loss for words, and even the young adult Snape seems tongue- > tied in the hilltop scene with Dumbledore. What do you think > happened in the twelve or so years between the hilltop and Harry's > first year at Hogwarts to turn Snape into the snarky, sarcastic > Potions master that we encounter in SS/PS? I think it's just a case of growing up. Maturity is gained through more time, more studying, and an extreme focus on three things: potions, dark arts/defense, and the task that lays before him: educating Lily's son. > 18. What do you think Dumbledore means when he tells Snape, "If I > know [Harry], he will have arranged matters so that when he does set > out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort"? Since he knows Harry heard the prophecy's "neither can live while the other survives" line, Dumbledore knows that Harry knows his death might be unavoidable. Because of that, Dumbledore knows Harry will do everything in his power to ensure that if *he* can't kill Voldemort, someone else *will*. That means every horocrux except Harry will have been destroyed before Harry would even think of going to Voldemort. > 19. We get only a few hints of what Harry is feeling as he witnesses > these scenes, and yet he goes from hating Snape and wanting revenge > against him to publicly defending him and ultimately naming his > second son after him and Dumbledore. Aside from the shock of Snape's > death, which scenes do you feel had the most impact on Harry's > change of heart and why? Who says the scenes he saw had to be the reason Harry changed his mind? I think it was more of the overall effect; the memories Severus chose could have just been the ones from Harry's first meeting with Voldemort and his school years, as those were the only ones with any value to the endgame. However, he added memories of his childhood watching Lily and Petunia, his private moments with Lily both before and after the "'mudblood' incident", and the scene in Sirius's bedroom where he takes Lily's love, and her smile (but not in a creepy way). Harry was able to see his mother as a girl, and understand that someone else loved her at least as much as his father did. He was able to read the end of Lily's letter, something which had been troubling his few spare moments for months. He was given some sort of understanding of why his aunt hated his magical abilities and couldn't love him. It seems like the holistic impact is greater than any one memory could be. > 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter? > Why did *Snape* choose them? I think JKR chose the memories to illustrate that there were two narratives going on during Harry's life; while the mysteries/hero narrative we read in the books was one, there would have been a second, more important plot were this real life. That narrative is that Harry had to be raised the right way in order to be some sort of kamikaze hero, willing to give his life in order to achieve a greater good. She chose Snape to have the memories because she understands that plenty of readers feel empathy for Snape. He doesn't punish students for sadistic pleasure, but because he doesn't accept substandard work. Snape chose the memories for two reasons; the first is because he needs Harry to understand what Harry has to do next. The second, more personal reason, is to show that Severus loved Lily and that even though Snape thought there was too much of his father in Harry, he helped raise the boy in order to honor the memory of his mother. saturniia From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Nov 11 17:44:14 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:44:14 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184825 "justcarol67" wrote:> > CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter > 33, The Prince's Tale > > 1. Why do you think that JKR (or the narrator) refers to Snape ?? as "the Prince" here and in "The Flight of the Prince" in HBP? Potioncat: Perhaps she, like her more discerning fans, sees the true worth of this Prince of a Man. It really is interesting. Why "did' she choose to give him the name "Half Blood Prince", and why she refers to him as "the prince." JKR herself seems conflicted about Snape. She seems to find him horrible yet worthy. She has done a nice job of pairing off the two sets of chapters that deal with the Prince. We have the Lightening Struck Tower followed by the Flight of the Prince in HBP, compared to the Elder Wand and The Prince's Tale in DH. I was watching a documentary about WB last night. The section was on movies made just before and during WWII--to show how to behave in war. A very horrible character turns himself around and shows real bravery, but the narrator says, "courage alone is never enough for redemption" and I couldn't help but think of JKR. (the character sacrifices himself for the rest of the company.) Maybe courage is enough for her. > > 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of [their] > dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the > Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you ?? think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead? Potioncat: What does happen to the dead? Are they evanesced (or a similar spell) to the MoM morgue? Because, I don't think they are still lined up in the middle of the hall for the battle. We see the bodies being gathered and brought inside, but surely that's not where they would stay. IMHO, LV is really driving home the losses by offering them the opportunity to gather their dead. Besides, he really expects Harry to come to him, and may think Harry is more to likely to come during the truce if he doesn't feel compelled to protect his friends in battle. > > 3. Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking, > apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." This > description seems to echo that of the dead Dumbledore in HBP-- > "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms > and legs, he might have been sleeping"?Xand that of his peacefully > sleeping portrait. What do you think JKR is saying about death > through these descriptions? Do they seem to refer to death in general ?? or only to these particular deaths? Potioncat: In interviews JKR has expressed a belief in an Afterlife, although she also expresses a difficulty with in maintaining the belief. So, for the purposes of this story, I think she is showing death as a next step in our existence. All along, her higher quality characters accept death--it's only LV who fears death, and the ghosts who are afraid to go on. It's also interesting that Lupin and Tonks are shown as peaceful- looking, because we will see Lupin very shortly, already very comfortable in his new existence. > > 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway > leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think ?? the password changed and who or what changed it? Potioncat: There have been some very interesting answers to this question. But I think Snape set it. I think Harry yelled it out without thinking, because of the clues. Snape giving him memories that he needs DD's Pensieve to retrieve. "Pensieve!" might have been a good guess too. Snape is very unlikely to use a candy as the password. But the idea that the castle itself decided to let him is interesting, or that DD set it before he died. We really don't know if the castle refused entry to Umbridge because it did not accept her, or because DD "locked" the office. Still, I vote for Snape, for all the reasons others have given. > > 5. Little Severus is described as "stringy," the same word that the > narrator uses to describe both the teenage Severus and Theodore Nott > in OoP. Did you think of Theo when you read the description of little > Severus, and, if so, what connection, if any, did you see between the ?? two Slytherin boys? Potioncat: We've seen a similar description of Severus and Theo before. Was it weedy? So I've always sort of linked these two characters. I don't know if JKR intended there to be a link. Some of us have given Theo a much bigger role that JKR has. I don't know if she ever planned for him to have much more page time. (There is a missing scene between him and Draco.) ah ha! Another link! Theo is almost as mysterious as Severus is. > > 6. What do you make of the description of Severus as "batlike" in his ?? oversized coat? Why does JKR continually connect Snape with bats? Potioncat: This follows adult Snape's flying out the window like a giant bat. JRK isn't letting go of the image that she started early on. >From http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/184820 > Pippin: > > Because he's a vampire! (Sorry, sorry) But Siriusly, the oversize > > clothes are an obvious parallel with Harry. Perhaps Snape is wearing > > his father's hand-me-downs? Here, the bat comparison makes Snape > > look comical, where as in earlier canon it made him menacing. So ?? > perhaps this is JKR's way of, er, de-fanging the bat metaphor. Potioncat: All good points, especially the parallel to Harry. Readers make much of Severus being a loner, but before Hogwarts Harry was also friendless and wore clothes that displeased the neighbors. The comical vrs menacing contrast is good too. JKR was able to go back and still use the same description, even though it gives a different impression. > > SSSusan: (also from 184820) > Or perhaps it was her way of having a nice laugh along with us... > sort of one last nod to the fans who had long held the belief in ?? vampire!Snape. > Potioncat: SSSusan! I might have expected this of Alla but I wasn't laughing in this chapter. Actually, JKR has used animal images for most of the characters. I think she's channeling Beatrix Potter. Ginny is usually described in feline terms, but I'm not sure if JKR continued that one. I think she was taking this description to the max. Did anyone bring up in the last chapter discussion that Ron made reference to Snape as a flying bat in GoF? I really did expect the bat image to turn into a Hebridean Black dragon image. > > 9. Severus is obviously lying when he denies dropping the tree branch > on Petunia, but neither his words nor his "scared and defiant" > expression make clear whether the magic is accidental or deliberate. > Which do you think it is and why? Why doesn't something similar ?? happen to James and Sirius in SWM where Severus is also wandless? Potioncat: I don't think he's exactly lying. To an 11-year-old, not doing it on purpose is the same as not doing it. I think it was accidental magic. We see Lily working some very advanced wandless magic. I wonder if that was a flint? It certainly puts her into a class with Tom Riddle. Like others have said, accidental magic is something that just doesn't happen after a certain age. But this reminds me of the bursting jar of cockroaches in OoP. We've considered that it may have been accidental magic. > > 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier ?? onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)? Potioncat: The same way the Grangers got into Diagon Alley. I'm sure there is some method to allow Muggles into Hogwarts or onto Platform 9 3/4 when necessary. > > 12. James's words, "Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, > wouldn't you?" mirror Draco's words about Hufflepuff in SS/PS. What > do you think that JKR is saying here about James and Draco or House > prejudice in general? And what's your reaction to James's imaginary ?? Sword of Gryffindor, raised in defense of chivalry? Potioncat: Well, it set up many of us to think we were going to see a reversal of stereotyped House traits. It may have been JKR's way of showing how bad James and Sirius were. But to be honest, I still don't get her purpose. > > 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya, ?? Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think so? Potioncat: I thin k it was Sirius, as someone else said, James already got his cut in. But on the other hand, I don't think it's as important to JKR as it is to us. > > 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting ?? Severus's back? Why include that detail? Potioncat: I don't know. Does Lucius assume that anyone who's selected into Slytherin must be of good blood? Or is it that true Purebloods are so rare, that even the Purebloods don't get too upset at half-bloods? Or at least not at those with the right attitude. Thanks, Carol, for a great summary and questions. I'll respond to the other questions at a later time. From lizzyben04 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 20:54:58 2008 From: lizzyben04 at yahoo.com (lizzyben04) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 20:54:58 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184826 Pippin: Perhaps having a captive audience in his classes helped him gain confidence. It might be that in earlier years, he relied even more on the blackboard --perhaps to the good fortune of those who would otherwise have been verbally scorched. lizzyben: I also vote for teaching as making the difference. When you're forced in front of a crowd of teenagers, it is sink or swim in a big way. Kids will test a teacher, especially one as young as Snape was, to try to see how far they can go. And the new teacher can adopt one of three strategies: run away crying, explode with rage, or adopt a commanding persona. I can see Snape doing both before finally adopting a persona that allows him to control the classroom. IMO Snape's persona is to a large extent an act lifted from authority figures in his own life - it's 70% Lucius Malfoy, 20% Tobias Snape & that extra 20% of pure Snape neurosis. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Nov 11 23:11:32 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 23:11:32 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184827 > SSSusan: > Or perhaps it was her way of having a nice laugh along with us... > sort of one last nod to the fans who had long held the belief in > vampire!Snape. > > Hey, it's possible! Pippin: Maybe. But the bat imagery occurs from the beginning of the series and she doesn't appear to have even thought about vampire!Snape until fans suggested it. I think it might be more significant that European bats have an undeservedly malign reputation. In real life they don't prey on humans and consume many harmful pests. > Pippin: > > It shows he has one, at any rate. He has moral fear, unlike > > Voldemort. > > SSSusan: > True, that. But it also raises the question, then, of when he *lost* it. Pippin: I don't think he did lose it. The first thing he said to Dumbledore was "Don't kill me." But he chose what was easy over what was right. When we last saw him as a student, he seemed to envision the Death Eaters as a grownup version of Slytherin House: a club for smart, powerful wizards who want to see wizard blood get the respect it deserves. If some "really bad stuff" had to happen for the other side to get the message, there are easy ways to excuse or rationalize that. Pippin From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Wed Nov 12 10:51:13 2008 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 02:51:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale References: Message-ID: <377859.44505.qm@web46204.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184828 >>14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting Severus's back? Why include that detail? ? ? For a person with a troubled life at home (sans any love, probably), this gesture from Lucius could have meant a lot ? acceptance into his favorite house, into Hogwarts, into WW. So, when I read this, I thought it was probably Lucius who lured Snape to Dark Arts by highlighting its ?power?, ?greatness?, et al. I also felt it explained Snape?s treatment of Draco in his class, in the dueling club in CoS, etc. and one of the possible drives behind his Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa. ? ? >> 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter? Why did *Snape* choose them? ? ? As mentioned in one of the earlier posts, to explain to Harry that he?s DD?s man and to pass on the message that Harry has to sacrifice himself. I think it made sense. In fact, what actually intrigued me is what Snape bothered to share with Harry during those occlumency lessons. Given Snape?s personality, skill at occlumency and dislike for Harry (or rather James?s son), I thought that it was quite surprising that he allowed Harry to look at the memory where Tobias Snape was shouting at his mother!! I still don?t understand why *Snape* chose that memory to come on top of his mind. He could have easily gone for simple, good-for-nothing memories thus maintaining his data privacy. ?~Joey, who thanks Carol for the interesting summary and questions [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Nov 12 15:27:49 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:27:49 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: <377859.44505.qm@web46204.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184829 Joey: I still don't understand why *Snape* chose that memory to come on top of his mind. He could have easily gone for simple, good-for-nothing memories thus maintaining his data privacy. Pippin: It was a double bluff, IMO. Snape didn't want Harry or Voldemort to know how good at maintaining data privacy Snape actually was. The memories Snape was eliciting from Harry were not simple, good-for-nothing ones, so it would have been suspicious if the deflected spell pulled fluffy-bunny memories from Snape. Pippin From superlyndsi at yahoo.com Wed Nov 12 16:59:51 2008 From: superlyndsi at yahoo.com (superlyndsi) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:59:51 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184830 Carol: > 3. Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking, > apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." This > description seems to echo that of the dead Dumbledore in HBP-- > "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms > and legs, he might have been sleeping"?and that of his peacefully > sleeping portrait. What do you think JKR is saying about death > through these descriptions? Do they seem to refer to death in general > or only to these particular deaths? Lyndsi: I think this is a generalization of many of the deaths in the series. Upon reading this question, the thing that immediately popped into my mind was a Dumbledore quote from PS/SS: "[death] really is like going to bed after a very, very long day...to the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." This seems to be setting a non-threatening tone of death which is echoed in the peaceful descriptions of many deaths later in the series-- particularly those of DD, Lupin, Tonks and even Dobby. Those that died were simply doing what needed to be done to further the cause of the good guys. DD's death was arranged; Lupin and Tonks knew that the dangers of the battle could likely result in their deaths; Dobby was terrified, but still acted bravely, fully aware of what might happen to him at Malfoy Mannor. IMO, those that appeared the most peaceful were simply the most prepared and accepting of "the next great adventure." I am curious if Mad-Eye would have also been described as peaceful if we had seen more of him than just his eye after his death. I like to think that he would have; in his line of work, death was daily a very real possibility. Carol: > 16. Aside from not wanting to repeat a nine-page scene in detail, why > do you think JKR condenses Snape's worst memory to a single > paragraph? Is the tactic effective? (The relevant paragraph is on > page 675 of the Scholastic edition and page 542 of the Bloomsbury > edition.) Note especially the last line, "Distantly, he heard Snape > shout at her in his humiliation and his fury, the unforgivable word: > Mudblood." Lyndsi: First, we already know all the other details, so repeating them is not a necessity. Secondly, this version highlights why exactly this is Snape's Worst Memory. In the first reading of SWM, there are so many humiliating things that happen to Snape. I, like Harry, focused on James and Sirius' treatment of Snape, rather than Snape's treatment of Lily. Now that we know Lily and Snape were very close, this slur of Lily is much more powerful. From jkoney65 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 12 23:56:44 2008 From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 23:56:44 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184831 > Discussion Questions: > > 1. Why do you think that JKR (or the narrator) refers to Snape > as "the Prince" here and in "The Flight of the Prince" in HBP? Poetic license? > > 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of [their] > dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the > Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you > think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead? Since the magical world is so stuck in the past I assumed it was like old time battles where they let the enemy get their dead and wounded from the field. > > 3. Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking, > apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." This > description seems to echo that of the dead Dumbledore in HBP-- > "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms > and legs, he might have been sleeping"?and that of his peacefully > sleeping portrait. What do you think JKR is saying about death > through these descriptions? Do they seem to refer to death in general > or only to these particular deaths? Since much of her audience is young, I thought she was trying to soften the deaths and not make them so frightening. > > 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway > leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think > the password changed and who or what changed it? I thought it was a back-door password that Snape set up. > > 5. Little Severus is described as "stringy," the same word that the > narrator uses to describe both the teenage Severus and Theodore Nott > in OoP. Did you think of Theo when you read the description of little > Severus, and, if so, what connection, if any, did you see between the > two Slytherin boys? I didn't see any connection at all. > > 7. Since Lily has no way of knowing about prejudice against Muggle- > borns in the WW, why do you think she's worried that being a Muggle- > born might "make a difference"? Given Severus's remark that Lily can > do "loads" of magic, might the two children be talking about magical > ability rather than prejudice against Muggle-borns? If not, why would > he make that remark in that context? I thought he was trying to reassure her that she would be ok even if she didn't come from a magical family > > 8. Severus tells Lily that only wizards who "do really bad stuff" are > sent to Azkaban. What does this remark reveal about his sense of good > and evil and age nine or ten? At that age he had a very child like view of good/evil. Unfortunately for him he lost that viewpoint and turned himself into a DE. It took her death to make him see the difference again. > > 9. Severus is obviously lying when he denies dropping the tree branch > on Petunia, but neither his words nor his "scared and defiant" > expression make clear whether the magic is accidental or deliberate. > Which do you think it is and why? Why doesn't something similar > happen to James and Sirius in SWM where Severus is also wandless? I think it was an accident, but he knew that he had done it. I think once you start training the accidents become less likely to happen. He is in his fifth year and I would expect that they shouldn't be happening at all by this point. > > 10. Why does Petunia call Lily a "freak" (the same word that she uses > in SS/PS some twenty years later)? What justification, if any, do you > see for her view that sending "weirdos" like Lily and Severus to > Hogwarts will protect the "normal people"? Do you see any connection > with the Statute of Secrecy? I think that since Petunia couldn't go, she was going to be childish and decide that anyone who could go must be a freak. Although if she had the ability they would be normal. Again I think she was just acting childish when she said that them going would protect the normal people. > > 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier > onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)? Since muggle children are going every year, I would think that they received some sort of instructions to help them get through it. > > 12. James's words, "Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, > wouldn't you?" mirror Draco's words about Hufflepuff in SS/PS. What > do you think that JKR is saying here about James and Draco or House > prejudice in general? And what's your reaction to James's imaginary > Sword of Gryffindor, raised in defense of chivalry? I think she is letting us know, that each person has some sort of prejudice against another group. It's an us versus them type of mentality. > > 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya, > Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think so? I don't think it mattered. > > 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting > Severus's back? Why include that detail? I think it was to let us know that Snape was going to fall under the influence of the "dark" Malfoy. And to let us know that Snape wasn't going to be an angel during his time at Hogwarts. > > 15. Lily's version of the so-called Prank?Severus "sneaking" around > the Shrieking Shack and being saved by James from "whatever's down > there" sounds a lot like Sirius's version in PoA except that everyone > in the PoA scene knows what's down there. Do you think that Sirius is > Lily's source? Why or why not? Why do you think she rejects > Severus's "theory" (obviously, that Lupin is a werewolf)? I think Sirius would be a good guess or she overheard them talking about it. I think she doesn't believe that the quiet gentle Lupin could be a werewolf. His behavior is a complete opposite of what you would think a werewolf would be. > > 16. Aside from not wanting to repeat a nine-page scene in detail, why > do you think JKR condenses Snape's worst memory to a single > paragraph? Is the tactic effective? (The relevant paragraph is on > page 675 of the Scholastic edition and page 542 of the Bloomsbury > edition.) Note especially the last line, "Distantly, he heard Snape > shout at her in his humiliation and his fury, the unforgivable word: > Mudblood." It wasn't necessary to repeat it since we all knew about it. We just needed it to set up the scene in the hallway where they go their separate ways. > > 17. The adult Snape is marvelously articulate, often brilliantly > sardonic and sometimes even poetic, yet the teenage Severus is often > at a loss for words, and even the young adult Snape seems tongue- tied > in the hilltop scene with Dumbledore. What do you think happened in > the twelve or so years between the hilltop and Harry's first year at > Hogwarts to turn Snape into the snarky, sarcastic Potions master that > we encounter in SS/PS? I think as he grew into a teenager he got a little more flustered around Lilly due to his attraction toward her. That would be a reasonable way for a young male to act. Snape has had years of being snarky to his students with no chance for them to fight back. That would give him time to practice and to see what worked the best. > > 18. What do you think Dumbledore means when he tells Snape, "If I > know [Harry], he will have arranged matters so that when he does set > out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort"? I think he figured Harry would have eliminated all of the horcruxes by that point. Although I'm not sure how he thought he would kill Nagini without facing Voldemort at the same time. > > 19. We get only a few hints of what Harry is feeling as he witnesses > these scenes, and yet he goes from hating Snape and wanting revenge > against him to publicly defending him and ultimately naming his > second son after him and Dumbledore. Aside from the shock of Snape's > death, which scenes do you feel had the most impact on Harry's change > of heart and why? I think seeing them young, then him begging Dumbledore, then the post death scene and finally the final doe showed him that Snape was truly a friend of his Mother's. I doubt anything else would have persuaded Harry. > > 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter? > Why did *Snape* choose them? I think he chose them because he needed to show the connection to Lilly to convince Harry. We also don't see any of the "evil" DE Snape or any of his bad behavior at Hogwarts. Which leads me to believe that he was trying to show himself in a good light. Anything else would have worked against him having Harry believe in him. > 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What > surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the end of > the chapter the first time through? Parts of the story led me to believe that Snape was a more pathetic characther than I believed. The whole noble (at least in his mind) thought of never telling anyone made him look like he was trying to set himself up as some trajic character in a second rate story. I did like the fact that he kept his word and worked against Voldemort. Although I think he could have accomplished the same thing with out being such a childish bully to others in the story. > > 22. I've deliberately omitted questions about the much-discussed > later memories involving Dumbledore and Snape. Please add any > questions comments about this chapter that you'd like us to discuss. I think that Dumbledore was trying to prod Snape into being a better person with all his little "digs" at him. I think he wanted Snape to stand up for himself and show what type of person he could be and to leave the petty stuff behind him. Unfortunately Snape never did this as he showed when he wanted to know what Dumbledore was telling Harry. It took some massaging of Snape's ego at that point to keep things on track. > Carol > > >> From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 00:14:27 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:14:27 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184832 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Joey: > I still don't understand why *Snape* chose that memory to come on > top of his mind. He could have easily gone for simple, > good-for-nothing memories thus maintaining his data privacy. > > Pippin: > It was a double bluff, IMO. Snape didn't want Harry or Voldemort to > know how good at maintaining data privacy Snape actually was. The > memories Snape was eliciting from Harry were not simple, > good-for-nothing ones, so it would have been suspicious if the > deflected spell pulled fluffy-bunny memories from Snape. Zara: I don't understand why we would think that memory was deliberately chosen at all. It seemed to me that the breakthrough was accidental, and Snape regained control pretty quickly, but had no control over which memories Harry saw. This was my interpretation when I read OotP, and I don't see that we have learned anything new that would change my view, in the two final books of the series. Am I missing something? From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 00:29:02 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 00:29:02 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184833 > jkoney65: > I think that Dumbledore was trying to prod Snape into being a better > person with all his little "digs" at him. I think he wanted Snape to > stand up for himself and show what type of person he could be and to > leave the petty stuff behind him. Unfortunately Snape never did this > as he showed when he wanted to know what Dumbledore was telling > Harry. It took some massaging of Snape's ego at that point to keep > things on track. Zara: I disagree that Snape wanting to know what Albus was telling Harry was primarily about ego. Snape's life mission was, at that point, to help Albus to protect Harry so Harry could live, as Lily would have wanted. WE only saw Snape complaining about being in the dark about this in the HBP part of the timeline. Specifically, well after Snape had agreed that he would, before the year was out, kill Albus to spare him a worse death at the hands of other Death Eaters. How Snape was supposed to accomplish his mission of protection without Dumbledore, and without any idea of what Harry was up to, I personally cannot see. Snape must have thought that he needed to know. In the conversation after the argument in the Forest, I would not say he particularly massaged Snape's ego. On the contrary, he insulted him. However, the information he did provide (that Harry had to die) changed Snape's mission. It was no longer to protect Harry, but to stay close to Voldemort so he would know when to pass the information on to Harry. The one extended conversation of 'The Prince's Tale' in which Albus was reasonably pleasant to Snape is the one they had right after Snape saved his life. Snape's action, as Albus knew well, actually saved a great deal *more* than Albus's life. If Snape had failed, Albus would have taken his knowledge of Riddle's Horcruxes into his grave. He was indeed, very fortunate to have Snape in that scene. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 01:54:22 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:54:22 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH32, The Elder Wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184834 Zara wrote: > Giants are shown to be working with Voldemort in HBP, having been approached and recruited by him in GoF. The Ministry, presumably, could have made a more attractive offer to them than Hagrid was in a position to make. This would have freed the Ministry, in HBP, from the massive efforts of Obliviating half the West Country of England in the wake of a giant attack disguised as a hurricane. Carol responds: Doesn't anyone besides me think that the Ministry *did* send an ambassador to the giants, the same employee that the Committee for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures (IIRC) sent to execute Buckbeak, Walden Macnair? Yes, he was sent by Voldemort, but he's also a Ministry employee, a double agent like Snape, only he's loyal to the other side. Fudge and Lucius Malfoy are on good terms and Lucius Malfoy has a lot of influence (maybe including the suggestion for exectioner in PoA since he's certainly involved in the Buckbeak affair?). Fudge could easily have mentioned Dumbledore's suggestion of visiting the Giants as an absurd impssibility, and Lucius could easily have slipped in the suggestion of sending Macnair, either as his own idea or Voldemort's. It can't be a mere coincidence that Macnair is both a Ministry employee and a Death Eater. Sure, Voldemort promises him in Gof that he'll move on to bigger things (I don't recall the exact words, but I wonder if both JKR and Voldemort were punning, just as they were when Voldemort told Wormtail that some people would give their right hand to do the job that he was assigned), but that doesn't mean that *Fudge* didn't also send him, just as both Voldemort and Dumbledore expected (or ordered) Snape to kill Dumbledore. Carol, noting that Macnair may also have delivered the "pot plant" to Bode in OoP, or so the Lexicon suggests From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 03:44:48 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 03:44:48 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Zara" wrote: > I don't understand why we would think that memory was deliberately > chosen at all. It seemed to me that the breakthrough was > accidental, and Snape regained control pretty quickly, but had > no control over which memories Harry saw. This was my > interpretation when I read > OotP, and I don't see that we have learned anything new that would > change my view, in the two final books of the series. Am I missing > something? zanooda: That's what I've always believed too, and it has never even crossed my mind that what happened after Harry's "protego" could be deliberate. Harry felt sure that he accidentally had broken into Snape's childhood memories, and Snape's reaction (shaking and white in the face) shows that Harry was right. I think those memories were "on the surface" of Snape's mind because watching endlessly Harry's humiliating childhood memoried brought out his own bitter childhood memories ;-(. From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 04:29:11 2008 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:29:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale References: Message-ID: <172287.27286.qm@web46215.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184836 >>Joey: >>I still don't understand why *Snape* chose that memory to come on >>top of his mind. He could have easily gone for simple, >>good-for-nothing memories thus maintaining his data privacy. >>Pippin: >>It was a double bluff, IMO. Snape didn't want Harry or Voldemort to >>know how good at maintaining data privacy Snape actually was. The >>memories Snape was eliciting from Harry were not simple, >>good-for-nothing ones, so it would have been suspicious if the >>deflected spell pulled fluffy-bunny memories from Snape.? Hmmm, interesting point indeed...?but if Voldy can?show Harry a false vision of Sirius being crucio-ed why can't Snape do something similar to both Voldy and Harry? He could have "shown" something seemingly?true but actually false - he was always mentally prepared for performing occlumency, whether it was with Voldy or Harry. Yet he seems to have chosen to show the real one to Harry. I?doubt that?Harry *accidentally* saw the memory given that Snape was known to be an excellent occlumens. Even if we consider the possibility of Snape having remembered his horrible childhood memories after seeing those of Harry's,?Snape was prepared for the lesson and the legilimency that Harry was about to perform on him. For a person who can look back calmly into Voldy's face?while people around are unable to stand the ferocity of Voldy's gaze, this kind of slip with a boy totally new to legilimency/occlumency seems quite odd to me. May be?one explanation is that this was just a weak moment for Snape. Another *remotely* possible?reason could be that he?did soften a bit and gave in to an impulse to indeed share a similar memory with Harry. ? Let me know what you?all think! :-) ~Joey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 04:40:00 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 04:40:00 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: <172287.27286.qm@web46215.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184837 > Joey: > I?doubt that?Harry *accidentally* saw the memory given that Snape was known to be an excellent occlumens. Even if we consider the possibility of Snape having remembered his horrible childhood memories after seeing those of Harry's,?Snape was prepared for the lesson and the legilimency that Harry was about to perform on him. Zara: Why would he be prepared to face legilimency for Harry? Harry was not about to perform legilimency, so far as we knew, he was there in order to learn Occlumency. It was Snape that was performing Legilimency. Harry performed it unexpectedly, and unintentionally, when he deflected Snape's own Legilimens spell back at him with a Shield Charm. So it seems to me that Snape was not prepared for it, and also, that he was actually facing the magic of a wizard both powerful and experienced in Legilimency (namely, his own), not the magic of a novice to the art. So it makes sense to me that a few very brief memories leaked through before Snape shut them down. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 04:58:07 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 04:58:07 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: <172287.27286.qm@web46215.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184838 Joey wrote: > Hmmm, interesting point indeed... but if Voldy can show Harry a false vision of Sirius being crucio-ed why can't Snape do something similar to both Voldy and Harry? He could have "shown" something seemingly true but actually false - he was always mentally prepared for performing occlumency, whether it was with Voldy or Harry. Yet he seems to have chosen to show the real one to Harry. > > > I doubt that Harry *accidentally* saw the memory given that Snape was known to be an excellent occlumens. Even if we consider the possibility of Snape having remembered his horrible childhood memories after seeing those of Harry's, Snape was prepared for the lesson and the legilimency that Harry was about to perform on him. For a person who can look back calmly into Voldy's face while people around are unable to stand the ferocity of Voldy's gaze, this kind of slip with a boy totally new to legilimency/occlumency seems quite odd to me. May be one explanation is that this was just a weak moment for Snape. Another *remotely* possible reason could be that he did soften a bit and gave in to an impulse to indeed share a similar memory with Harry. Carol responds: I agree with Zara and zanooda that these memories were *not* meant to be seen and that Snape did not choose them. Occlumency doesn't work in this situation because harry isn't using ordinary eye-to-eye Legilimency--his Protego has turned Snape's very powerful Legilimens *spell* back on its caster, so that spell has exactly the same effect on Snape that it does on Harry except that snape can stop it more quickly. Of course, if he'd been anticipating the Protego, he could have blocked them much faster. But he seems to have expected something of the sort to happen; otherwise he would not have put three memories--SWM and two others that we don't get to see--in the Pensieve so Harry won't see them if he casts a Protego (or, heaven forfend, a successful Legilimens spell, which seems not to have occurred to him). He tells Harry to prepare himself, but *he* isn't fully prepared to be hit by his own spell. I also like zanooda's suggestion that seeing harry's miserable childhood experiences brought Snape's own miserable childhood to the forefront of his mind--and that's all to the good--better those memories than memories of his DE days! Carol, who's quite sure that Snape didn't want *any* of his memories to be seen on that occasion but also that he protected the most important ones just in case From kaamita at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 05:47:07 2008 From: kaamita at yahoo.com (Heather Hadden) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 21:47:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <725151.72686.qm@web56504.mail.re3.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184839 I am not sending this to the list. I have a question and didn't want to sound stupid to the group. LOL. I ahave been able to figure out all of the anagrams used in the groups. I feel that I am pretty smart, but I can not for the life of me figure out what SWM means. I know I will kick myself in the butt ince I figure it out, but can you please let me in on this?? Thanks, Heather --- On Wed, 11/12/08, superlyndsi wrote: From: superlyndsi Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 11:59 AM Carol: > 3. Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking, > apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." This > description seems to echo that of the dead Dumbledore in HBP-- > "Dumbledore' s eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms > and legs, he might have been sleeping"?and that of his peacefully > sleeping portrait. What do you think JKR is saying about death > through these descriptions? Do they seem to refer to death in general > or only to these particular deaths? Lyndsi: I think this is a generalization of many of the deaths in the series. Upon reading this question, the thing that immediately popped into my mind was a Dumbledore quote from PS/SS: "[death] really is like going to bed after a very, very long day...to the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." This seems to be setting a non-threatening tone of death which is echoed in the peaceful descriptions of many deaths later in the series-- particularly those of DD, Lupin, Tonks and even Dobby. Those that died were simply doing what needed to be done to further the cause of the good guys. DD's death was arranged; Lupin and Tonks knew that the dangers of the battle could likely result in their deaths; Dobby was terrified, but still acted bravely, fully aware of what might happen to him at Malfoy Mannor. IMO, those that appeared the most peaceful were simply the most prepared and accepting of "the next great adventure." I am curious if Mad-Eye would have also been described as peaceful if we had seen more of him than just his eye after his death. I like to think that he would have; in his line of work, death was daily a very real possibility. Carol: > 16. Aside from not wanting to repeat a nine-page scene in detail, why > do you think JKR condenses Snape's worst memory to a single > paragraph? Is the tactic effective? (The relevant paragraph is on > page 675 of the Scholastic edition and page 542 of the Bloomsbury > edition.) Note especially the last line, "Distantly, he heard Snape > shout at her in his humiliation and his fury, the unforgivable word: > Mudblood." Lyndsi: First, we already know all the other details, so repeating them is not a necessity. Secondly, this version highlights why exactly this is Snape's Worst Memory. In the first reading of SWM, there are so many humiliating things that happen to Snape. I, like Harry, focused on James and Sirius' treatment of Snape, rather than Snape's treatment of Lily. Now that we know Lily and Snape were very close, this slur of Lily is much more powerful. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 06:05:10 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:05:10 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: <725151.72686.qm@web56504.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184840 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Heather Hadden wrote: > > I am not sending this to the list. I have a question and didn't want to sound stupid to the group. LOL. I ahave been able to figure out all of the anagrams used in the groups. I feel that I am pretty smart, but I can not for the life of me figure out what SWM means. I know I will kick myself in the butt ince I figure it out, but can you please let me in on this?? > > Thanks, > Heather I think it went to the group anyway. But it's not a stupid question; SWM stands for "Snape's Worst Memory," shorthand for "that Pensieve memory that Harry wasn't supposed to see where Snape pantsed by James and Sirius and called Lily a Mudblood." SWM is a hard one to figure out, because the mind wants to sound it out... for my part, I can't figure out what tl;dr means. Anyone know? Montavilla47 From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 06:38:14 2008 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 06:38:14 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184841 > Carol's Question: > 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What > surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the > end of the chapter the first time through? Mike: First off, thank you Carol for a wonderful, thought provoking summary and question set. I'm sorry I only have time to respond to one, but it's the biggy for me. In a way, I was waiting for this chapter since I read the first HP book. I've always been big on backstories and this is the ultimate backstory, isn't it? Has anything else intrigued Potterphiles as much as the question of from whence Snape got his motivations and loyalties? When I first started this chapter, I actually felt sorry for young Sev. How could you not? An awkward kid, at an awkward age, in an awkward situation of confronting another young magical person in front of her non-magical sister. The obvious implication of an abusive and poor homelife peeking out from around the edges of Sev's whole personna. I actually started to question whether I would continue to dislike this character by the end of this chapter. Sev stays the more likeable of the newest Hogwartians through the train ride and the sorting. Now I'm actually questioning my allegiances, at least as far as James is concerned. But then Sev starts to show his true colors. Sure, he wants to be accepted by his peers so he's going to try to blend in with hs fellow Slytherins. But he shows himself to be jealous of Potter and his mates long before Lily has ever shown any interest in James. He's sneaking around, trying to catch those Gryffs at something when Lily is still thinking of that Potter boy as a "toerag". And Sev is breaking the rules himself to do it, which makes him no better than the boys he's trying to get something on. Aside: I find the criticism of Lily's actions in all this a bit harsh. She's remained friends with this geek of a boy (admit it, he was) despite all the probable peer pressure on her to drop him. So while Sev is giving in, to some degree, to his Slyth buddy's peer pressure, Lily is not. And her actions in SWM take on a new light after reading the backstory that lead up to it. She wasn't flirting with James, she was actually trying to come to Sev's rescue. And that smirk when Sev's greying underpants are revealed; come on, what 16- year-old girl wouldn't smirk for a fraction of a second upon seeing that, even if it was your friend? It wasn't until Snape calls her "Mudblood", a slur she knew he was using with some regularity, that she decides enough is enough. And Snape not denying that he was a DE in training tips the scales all the way for her. Back to Severus: The fact that he was a young DE in training, does bother me more, in his case. Who knows, maybe Voldemort was still being his charming self to the outsiders and maybe Severus was taken in just like so many others were. OTOH, with all we know and all we've been lead to believe about this guy's intelligence and savvy, shouldn't we have expected a little more out of him than from the likes of Mulciber or Crabbe or Goyle? Sure, lots of kids joined the Hitler youth. But that whole country was subsumed with that dogma, there really wasn't any other way to go. Severus doesn't have that excuse, there were alternatives for him. Maybe not as appealing, but certainly more moralistic. The final straw, the one that sealed the deal for me, was the scene on the windswept hill. That's when I knew I had pegged Snape for who he was. You see, I kept looking for a sign that Snape had joined up with the DEs as an infiltration move. Or, lacking that from the start, had quickly realized his mistake and opted for spydom and working against LV as an alternative to turning tail and running, leading to his probable early demise. But no such altruistic reason was forthcoming. Instead, we get the sad and disappointing lost love but still pining for his Lily reason. OK, that's not an altogether unexpected nor totally self-centered reason for changing sides. Yet it is somewhat egotistic and very much too sappy for my taste. But the basis for my belief that Snape doesn't win my support is the timing. I know JKR is poor with her numbers, but I think in this case holding to the timeline to be a credible exercise. The windswept hill scene must be after Harry's birth, which means it has to be a good three years after they all left Hogwarts. Severus Snape joined a terrorist organization and found nothing wrong with being a member of that organization for three years. It is obvious from Dumbledore's words that Snape remained a loyal DE, right up to that meeting. I cannot abide these actions and I cannot forgive him for that. In my eyes, this is not forgivable. Penitence for the rest of his life will not wash away this sin. He will forever remain a DE that converted, but a DE first. Nothing that came later in this chapter was either surprising or transformative of my opinion of Snape. I thought he would prove less malleable to Dumbledore, but that was not a big revelation. I ended the chapter with the same opinion I had of Snape going into it. There, how's that for recalling what I felt the first time through? I'll just never like Severus Snape! Mike From leahstill at hotmail.com Thu Nov 13 10:09:58 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:09:58 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: >> But then Sev starts to show his true colors. Sure, he wants to be > accepted by his peers so he's going to try to blend in with hs fellow > Slytherins. But he shows himself to be jealous of Potter and his > mates long before Lily has ever shown any interest in James. Leah: No, despite all her 'arrogant toerag' protestations, she's interested. She knows James has saved her 'best friend' from something dangerous, but doesn't bother to find out any details from Severus or ask how he is, until he broaches the subject. And she's completely taken up with the Marauder version,'James Potter saved your life...', and leaps to the defence of Potter and his mates. He's > sneaking around, trying to catch those Gryffs at something when Lily > is still thinking of that Potter boy as a "toerag". And Sev is > breaking the rules himself to do it, which makes him no better than > the boys he's trying to get something on. Leah: He breaks curfew, granted. However, he doesn't encourage someone to betray Dumbledore's trust by leaving the Shrieking Shack, he doesn't take a werewolf around local houses, having a few 'near misses' and he doesn't entrap someone into nearly getting killed or turned by a werewolf. > > Aside: I find the criticism of Lily's actions in all this a bit > harsh. She's remained friends with this geek of a boy (admit it, he > was) despite all the probable peer pressure on her to drop him. So > while Sev is giving in, to some degree, to his Slyth buddy's peer > pressure, Lily is not. Leah: She's actually given up on the friendship in her own mind before the werewolf prank. If you knew that your friend, let alone your best friend, had been saved from some serious danger, you might make some attempt to talk to them about it. Lily clearly hasn't. Her comment in the 'apology' scene, 'my friends wonder...', not 'my other friends' is another indicator. I'm not saying that Lily has to remain friends with Severus; even without all the House pressures etc, a lot of childhood friendships break down in the teenage years. All the indications are that instead of just telling him she was no longer interested, she continued to let him trail after her until the mudblood comment allowed to her to be in the right when she ended the relationship. And her actions in SWM take on a new light > after reading the backstory that lead up to it. She wasn't flirting > with James, she was actually trying to come to Sev's rescue. And that > smirk when Sev's greying underpants are revealed; come on, what 16- > year-old girl wouldn't smirk for a fraction of a second upon seeing > that, even if it was your friend? It wasn't until Snape calls > her "Mudblood", a slur she knew he was using with some regularity, > that she decides enough is enough. And Snape not denying that he was > a DE in training tips the scales all the way for her. Leah: I liked her a lot better in SWM, where she just appears to be a disinterested spectator who is the only one to come to Snape's rescue. I certainly didn't get the impression from that scene of a long established friendship (of course, we weren't meant to). Then the flirtation with James wasn't a big deal, because she was still the only one making any effort on Severus' behalf. Knowing that she had been his 'best friend' for some six/seven years put a different light on it for me. Of course, she should have come to his rescue, that's what you would do for your friend. JKR herself more or less confirmed that Lily is flirting with James in an interview when someone asked her why Lily married James when she hated him in SWM. JKR replied along the lines of "Did she hate him? You're a woman...." She certainly carries on a long interchange with James while Severus is choking away on soap bubbles. As to the smirk at the underpants, I think a lot of sixteen year old girls might not find their friend being publically humiliated desperately amusing. She's entitled to object to the Mudblood comment and the potential Death Eating, and end the friendship, but I also think that SWM gave her the opportunity to do so while putting all the blame on Severus for something she had mentally decided on long before. > > Back to Severus: The fact that he was a young DE in training, does > bother me more, in his case. Who knows, maybe Voldemort was still > being his charming self to the outsiders and maybe Severus was taken > in just like so many others were. OTOH, with all we know and all > we've been lead to believe about this guy's intelligence and savvy, > shouldn't we have expected a little more out of him than from the > likes of Mulciber or Crabbe or Goyle? Sure, lots of kids joined the > Hitler youth. But that whole country was subsumed with that dogma, > there really wasn't any other way to go. Severus doesn't have that > excuse, there were alternatives for him. Maybe not as appealing, but > certainly more moralistic. Leah: Being academically bright doesn't necessarily mean having common sense or being savvy, especially as a angry teenager. A lot of intelligent people seemed to have joined Voldemort for various reasons that aren't told to us. Malfoy is clearly smart, and we can assume Karkaroff, who is Headmaster of a wizarding school is quite bright, also Rookwood who operates as a spy in the Ministry and is only found out when Karkaroff grasses him up. Sirius is intelligent, so it is likely Regulus was too. We don't know anything about Mulciber's intellectual or academic ability. Riddle is nasty from birth, but I get the impression that after his resurrection he couldn't or didn't want to mask it anymore, also that he had been further damaged and destablised by his making of the seventh horcrux and his resurrection. I agree Snape wanted to join the Death Eaters - he could just have gone away and got some sort of job. I'm not sure that he would have seen the Order as a more moralistic alternative. >> The windswept hill scene must be after Harry's birth, which means it > has to be a good three years after they all left Hogwarts. Severus > Snape joined a terrorist organization and found nothing wrong with > being a member of that organization for three years. It is obvious > from Dumbledore's words that Snape remained a loyal DE, right up to > that meeting. I cannot abide these actions and I cannot forgive him > for that. In my eyes, this is not forgivable. Penitence for the rest > of his life will not wash away this sin. He will forever remain a DE > that converted, but a DE first. Leah: Quite possibly, you're right and Snape was Voldy's number one fan until Lily was endangered. Quite possibly, he wanted out before that, but you joined for life, as Sirius points out and Karkaroff illustrates. After Voldemort's vapourisation precisely four Death Eaters (or possibly two if the LeStrange brothers simply did what Bellatrix told them) were interested in finding out what had happened to him. Even Wormtail who could have ratted off to Albania at any time doesn't bother until he needs protection against Sirius. That's not a huge indication of personal loyalty to Voldemort from anyone in the ranks. It suggests to me that there were probably as many reasons for joining the Death Eaters as there were Death Eaters, and while some people no doubt just wanted to kill Mudbloods, it was probably a lot more complex than that. Given the reactions after Dumbledore's death in HBP, it seems likely that a number of Order members shared your view of Snape's penitence, which IMO makes the dogged way he carried on with his tasks, and ones he took on himself, saving those he could, all the more remarkable. Leah > From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 12:52:45 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:52:45 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184843 > Leah: And she's > completely taken up with the Marauder version,'James Potter saved > your life...', and leaps to the defence of Potter and his mates. Alla: And James Potter did not save his life? > Leah: He breaks curfew, granted. However, he doesn't encourage > someone to betray Dumbledore's trust by leaving the Shrieking Shack, > he doesn't take a werewolf around local houses, having a few 'near > misses' and he doesn't entrap someone into nearly getting killed or > turned by a werewolf. Alla: No, he only wants to find what those Gryfs are up to despite knowing that Madame Pomfrey takes Lupin there, meaning he knows that teachers are aware and it is clearly none of his business IMO. Entrap someone of course meaning telling somebody how to open the door somewhere that someone wanted to go long time ago, no? I always wonder when people call what Sirius did entrapment, because in my mind entraping somebody means something different. He told Snape how to get there, that is all he did, didn't he? Everything else was Snape's going there. > Leah: She's actually given up on the friendship in her own mind > before the > werewolf prank. If you knew that your friend, let alone your best > friend, had been saved from some serious danger, you might make some > attempt to talk to them about it. Lily clearly hasn't. Her comment > in the 'apology' scene, 'my friends wonder...', not 'my other > friends' is another indicator. Alla: We do not know what is on her mind. I completely disagree that she gave up on friendship before that. She knows that Snape is her friend, I think it would be just awkward prose to say my other friends, IMO of course. Lea: I'm not saying that Lily has to > remain friends with Severus; even without all the House pressures > etc, a lot of childhood friendships break down in the teenage years. > All the indications are that instead of just telling him she was no > longer interested, she continued to let him trail after her until > the mudblood comment allowed to her to be in the right when she > ended the relationship. Alla: IMO word mudblood did it and the fact that Lily heard him calling somebody else that word. As I wrote before, if somebody called me **once** what I consider to be equivalent of this word, trust me, this person would have been my friend no more, that how much this word symbolises in my mind. I do blame Lily if she heard it before even in relation to somebody else and did not give Snape a harshest lecture ever, I do. But I guess she thought that he would never do that to her, which is in my mind a bit selfish, but well, if she indeed valued his friendship, understandable to me. >> Leah: Quite possibly, you're right and Snape was Voldy's number one > fan until Lily was endangered. Quite possibly, he wanted out before > that, but you joined for life, as Sirius points out and Karkaroff > illustrates. Alla: IMO he still should have tried to quit, if he wanted to. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 13:52:21 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:52:21 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184844 > > Leah: And she's > > completely taken up with the Marauder version,'James Potter saved > > your life...', and leaps to the defence of Potter and his mates. > > Alla: > > And James Potter did not save his life? Zara: The point (in a discussion of Lily's motives) is not that he did or did not. Lily does not know - she was not there. The point is Lily's immediate acceptance of James' version of the story, without even bothering to obtain Snape's side of the story. > > Leah: She's actually given up on the friendship in her own mind > > before the > > werewolf prank. If you knew that your friend, let alone your best > > friend, had been saved from some serious danger, you might make > some > > attempt to talk to them about it. Lily clearly hasn't. Her comment > > in the 'apology' scene, 'my friends wonder...', not 'my other > > friends' is another indicator. > > Alla: > > We do not know what is on her mind. I completely disagree that she > gave up on friendship before that. She knows that Snape is her > friend, I think it would be just awkward prose to say my other > friends, IMO of course. Zara: Would it also be awkward prose to ask somewhere in that conversation (like, when they first see one another after shes has learned this fact) "Sev! I heard you almost got killed last night!! Are you OK?" From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 14:44:42 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:44:42 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184845 > > Alla: > > > > And James Potter did not save his life? > > Zara: > The point (in a discussion of Lily's motives) is not that he did or > did not. Lily does not know - she was not there. The point is Lily's > immediate acceptance of James' version of the story, without even > bothering to obtain Snape's side of the story. Alla: She is listening to Snape, no? I mean, sure, she believed Sirius or whoever was her source, why would she not? I mean, she knows they are not friends, to put it mildly, however I think she also does not think of them as liars. IMO. > > Alla: > > > > We do not know what is on her mind. I completely disagree that she > > gave up on friendship before that. She knows that Snape is her > > friend, I think it would be just awkward prose to say my other > > friends, IMO of course. > > Zara: > Would it also be awkward prose to ask somewhere in that conversation > (like, when they first see one another after shes has learned this > fact) "Sev! I heard you almost got killed last night!! Are you OK?" > Alla: Hmmmm, sorry, I can see that I indeed addressed only one example given by Leah. However there was a reason for it in mind at least :). It reminds me of somebody asking me whether I got home Okay after late night party when that somebody is looking at me the very next day and I am obviously okay. Why would Lily ask that question? She is looking at Snape, who is obviously okay IMO. So, her not asking it in my mind is just that she is an intelligent girl and does not waste her time asking unnecessary questions. I mean, I think I can guess what you are going to say - regardless, these words would show friendly concern, sure, they will I agree. However, the fact that she does not say them to me certainly does not indicate that she is not concerned for a friend, it is just her concerns are put to rest by seeing that friend alive and well. JMO, Alla From leahstill at hotmail.com Thu Nov 13 15:04:31 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:04:31 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184846 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > Leah: And she's > > completely taken up with the Marauder version,'James Potter saved > > your life...', and leaps to the defence of Potter and his mates. > > Alla: > > And James Potter did not save his life? Leah: I didn't say he didn't. Snape always thinks he was merely protecting his friends, though that would still be brave. What I meant was Lily has completely taken the Marauders version, rather than wanting to know, or indeed being at all interested in Snape's version of what happened. > > Leah: He breaks curfew, granted. However, he doesn't encourage > > someone to betray Dumbledore's trust by leaving the Shrieking > Shack, > > he doesn't take a werewolf around local houses, having a few 'near > > misses' and he doesn't entrap someone into nearly getting killed or > > turned by a werewolf. > > Alla: > > No, he only wants to find what those Gryfs are up to despite knowing > that Madame Pomfrey takes Lupin there, meaning he knows that teachers > are aware and it is clearly none of his business IMO. > > Entrap someone of course meaning telling somebody how to open the > door somewhere that someone wanted to go long time ago, no? I always > wonder when people call what Sirius did entrapment, because in my > mind entraping somebody means something > different. He told Snape how to get there, that is all he did, didn't > he? Everything else was Snape's going there. Leah: The fact that the teachers know about it would make Severus think that whatever is down there ought to be safe ie restrained in some way. After all, he is pretty sure Lupin is a werewolf before the Prank, because Lily, who hasn't seen him since the Prank, says "I know your theory", so prior to the Prank, he must have told her he thought Lupin was a werewolf and being rebuffed by her. The likelihood is that he wanted to see Lupin in wereform so he could say to Lily, "He is a werewolf, I've actually seen him, so keep away from that lot,they are dangerous" (which would be the typical view of most wizards). I'm not saying Severus is wholly blamefree in all of this. However, it seems analagous to me to: me suspecting that a cylinder of deadly poison is kept in a locked room, and someone saying, this is how to unlock that room, and then that someone releasing the poison into the room. Clearly, I'm being nosy and putting myself at some risk just by going into the room , but that's not the same as someone deliberately setting out to poison me. > > > > > Leah: She's actually given up on the friendship in her own mind > > before the > > werewolf prank. If you knew that your friend, let alone your best > > friend, had been saved from some serious danger, you might make > some > > attempt to talk to them about it. Lily clearly hasn't. Her comment > > in the 'apology' scene, 'my friends wonder...', not 'my other > > friends' is another indicator. > > Alla: > > We do not know what is on her mind. I completely disagree that she > gave up on friendship before that. She knows that Snape is her > friend, I think it would be just awkward prose to say my other > friends, IMO of course. > Leah: In that case, why is she so uninterested in what happened to him when she hears Potter saved his life? Wouldn't anyone want to know straightaway what had happened to their 'best friend'? She's not interested even while he's trying to tell her. The start of that conversation, 'I thought we were meant to be friends...' also indicates some kind of brush off. I think the fact that he calls other people 'Mudblood' and that she's clearly let him get away with it is another indicator that the friendship truly ended for her a long while before SWM. If someone you cared about started generally insulting your racial group, you would either be really upset or really angry with them, yet Lily seems not to be bothered (unless Severus only started using the word between the Prank conversation and SWM which seems unlikely). It's like Hermione hearing Ron call Colin Creevey a Mudblood and still letting him hang around with her. Leah From leahstill at hotmail.com Thu Nov 13 15:22:24 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:22:24 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184848 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Alla: > > Hmmmm, sorry, I can see that I indeed addressed only one example > given by Leah. However there was a reason for it in mind at least :). > > It reminds me of somebody asking me whether I got home Okay after > late night party when that somebody is looking at me the very next > day and I am obviously okay. Why would Lily ask that question? She is > looking at Snape, who is obviously okay IMO. So, her not asking it in > my mind is just that she is an intelligent girl and does not waste > her time asking unnecessary questions. > > I mean, I think I can guess what you are going to say - regardless, > these words would show friendly concern, sure, they will I agree. > However, the fact that she does not say them to me certainly does not > indicate that she is not concerned for a friend, it is just her > concerns are put to rest by seeing that friend alive and well. Leah: But it's not the next day. Lily says something like 'I heard what happened a few days ago....'. So she's not rushed to find out. Even if she only found out about it that day, she obviously hasn't started the conversation with this incident, they only get on to it because Severus himself mentions James Potter. Also, it's not like someone getting back from a party. She has heard James saved Severus' life, which has to indicate her 'friend' had been in some very nasty situation. I think even if you can clearly see they're alive and well, if someone was genuinely your best friend or even just your friend, and you heard they'd been rescued from some life-threatening event, your first reaction would be to find out about it, and possibly to ask "You look ok - how are you feeling?". To me, she just isn't that interested in Severus anymore. As I've said, there's absolutely no reason why she should be, it's just rather nasty that she waits for the moral high ground of the Mudblood incident to clearly end the relationship. Leah. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 15:29:16 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:29:16 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184849 Leah: The fact that the teachers know about it would make Severus think that whatever is down there ought to be safe ie restrained in some way. After all, he is pretty sure Lupin is a werewolf before the Prank, because Lily, who hasn't seen him since the Prank, says "I know your theory", so prior to the Prank, he must have told her he thought Lupin was a werewolf and being rebuffed by her. The likelihood is that he wanted to see Lupin in wereform so he could say to Lily, "He is a werewolf, I've actually seen him, so keep away from that lot, they are dangerous" (which would be the typical view of most wizards). I'm not saying Severus is wholly blamefree in all of this. However, it seems analogous to me to: me suspecting that a cylinder of deadly poison is kept in a locked room, and someone saying, this is how to unlock that room, and then that someone releasing the poison into the room. Clearly, I'm being nosy and putting myself at some risk just by going into the room, but that's not the same as someone deliberately setting out to poison me. Alla: I am sorry, but it seems to me that if somebody strongly suspects that there is a deadly poison in the room and goes there anyways, that person is doing so much more than just being nosy. I think that person clearly IMO puts their life at risk. So, yes, I absolutely believe that Snape bears a huge part of blame for putting his life at risk. Before book 7 I was so prepared to see that Sirius used some sort of duress in bringing him to Shack ? anything, saying that Lily is hurt or some sort of letter from her is waiting for him, putting some sort of spell. Anything. Nothing, he did not do anything, but told Snape what Snape oh so wanted to know and Snape went there of his own volition. Indeed book 7 made me think that Snape indeed knew or strongly suspected that Remus was a werewolf and **went there anyways**. Nope, I do not blame Sirius for that one bit. I **do** blame Sirius however for being a stupid idiot who would not think what would happen to Remus if he bites Snape. But Snape made the choice to go there; Sirius did not do it for him. I see Sirius have on obligation to guard Remus' secret, I do not see Sirius have any such obligation towards Snape. Of course if Sirius would have used any sort of duress on Snape, I would have thought differently. But it is amusing for me to see how Snape going there because he wanted to translates to Sirius forcing him to do that (not in your post, just in many Prank related arguments). If I feel like being a thrill seeker and go out to seek a danger, it seems to me that if that danger bites me (pun intended), I have myself to blame first and foremost. Leah: I think the fact that he calls other people 'Mudblood' and that she's clearly let him get away with it is another indicator that the friendship truly ended for her a long while before SWM. If someone you cared about started generally insulting your racial group, you would either be really upset or really angry with them, yet Lily seems not to be bothered (unless Severus only started using the word between the Prank conversation and SWM which seems unlikely). It's like Hermione hearing Ron call Colin Creevey a Mudblood and still letting him hang around with her. Alla: Well, sure, if she started to cool towards Snape because she heard him calling other people that word, I can see that, even though I am not convinced that she did. I mean, to me she is bothered when she says that he calls everybody that word. I just do not see her taking harsher measures, I am not explaining myself well, but to me that points to exact opposite of cooling off ? that she saw Snape is bad news and hoped against all odds that he would not do it to her anyways. Ooops, he did. But yes, I certainly will be bothered if I hear my friends calling anybody what I consider to be RL equivalent of that word and will have words with them, absolutely. Oh, and just wanted to agree that Lily was interested in James during SWM, however that to me does not mean that she stopped thinking about him as arrogant toerag, nor that means to me that she decided to drop of Snape as a friend. I think Lily thought she was perfectly capable to be interested in James and have Snape as a friend, but Snape IMO digs his own grave. JMO, Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Nov 13 16:34:15 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:34:15 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184850 Alla: > I **do** blame Sirius however for being a stupid idiot who would not think what would happen to Remus if he bites Snape. But Snape made the choice to go there; Sirius did not do it for him. I see Sirius have on obligation to guard Remus' secret, I do not see Sirius have any such obligation towards Snape. Pippin: So, you'd say that if Harry had told Draco how to get into the third floor corridor, Harry would only be morally responsible if Fluffy got hurt? If Draco got torn to pieces, it would not be Harry's fault, even if Harry had every intention of getting Draco in trouble? Actually, there's an even better parallel in canon: are you going to say that it wasn't a dirty trick for Draco to set Harry up for Filch? Nobody made Harry go to the Trophy Room. All Malfoy told him was that he'd meet him there at midnight, and it was always unlocked. Sirius didn't have to tell Snape when to find Lupin under the willow because Sirius knew that Snape knew that already. Otherwise, I see no difference. > Leah: > > I think the fact that he calls other people 'Mudblood' and that she's clearly let him get away with it is another indicator that the friendship truly ended for her a long while before SWM. Pippin: Does everyone think Lily was aware beforehand that he was using that word? When she tells James "I don't want *you* to make him apologize. You're as bad as he is..." it sounds to me as though she's thinking she deserves (and would accept) an apology from Snape, and as if she didn't think calling someone mudblood in a moment of temper is any worse than hexing people for fun, having a swelled head, and showing off with a snitch. IMO, when she had time to think, Lily concluded that it wouldn't have "slipped out" unless he'd been using it in private already, and that was the last straw. In the earlier conversation, she says she's tired of making excuses for him. That's a misguided way of being supportive, but it was supportive. One can only wonder what might have happened if she'd confronted him earlier about his behavior instead of enabling it. I don't think one can say the distancing was all on Lily's part. We know Snape saw Madame Pomfrey taking Remus to the willow before the prank and yet he apparently didn't tell Lily about it. Isn't that the sort of thing you'd tell your best friend? Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 16:47:15 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:47:15 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184851 > Pippin: > So, you'd say that if Harry had told Draco how to get into the third > floor corridor, Harry would only be morally responsible if Fluffy got > hurt? If Draco got torn to pieces, it would not be Harry's fault, even > if Harry had every intention of getting Draco in trouble? Alla: As long as we make analogy complete as I see it, that is exactly what I am saying. Meaning that if Draco wanted to go there and suspected that there is a big three headed and very dangerous dog there and went there anyways. Yeas that is what I am saying. If Harry somehow tricked, made Draco to go there and Draco would not have went on his own, then that is not what I am saying. Pippin: > Actually, there's an even better parallel in canon: are you going to > say that it wasn't a dirty trick for Draco to set Harry up for Filch? > Nobody made Harry go to the Trophy Room. All Malfoy told him was that > he'd meet him there at midnight, and it was always unlocked. Alla: No I do not think that this is a better parallel at all. Malfoy provided a reason for Harry to be there, Harry would not have gone on it is own, no? If Sirius would have told Snape - oh hey, we will have a duell there, I would have considered it a dirty trick indeed. Same if Harry really wanted to go to Trophy room and Draco just told him how, I would not have hold Draco much responsible or at all. JMO. Pippin: > Sirius didn't have to tell Snape when to find Lupin under the willow > because Sirius knew that Snape knew that already. Otherwise, I see no > difference. Alla: See above. My point is that Snape went there, because Snape wanted to, that's all. He would not have *known* how to get there without Sirius telling him and I sure hold Sirius responsible for that, but I refuse to hold Sirius responsible for Snape's desire to see that there is indeed a werewolf there. Especially since I am pretty convinced that he was almost sure anyways. >> Pippin: > Does everyone think Lily was aware beforehand that he was using that > word? Alla: Well, yes, to me it seems so since she refers to Snape calling everybody else that, no? Pippin: > IMO, when she had time to think, Lily concluded that it wouldn't have > "slipped out" unless he'd been using it in private already, and that > was the last straw. In the earlier conversation, she says she's tired > of making excuses for him. That's a misguided way of being supportive, > but it was supportive. Alla: But isn't the making excuses contradicts the not knowing part? I do agree though that she thought she was being supportive. Pippin: One can only wonder what might have happened if > she'd confronted him earlier about his behavior instead of enabling it. Alla: Sure. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Nov 13 18:49:45 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:49:45 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184852 > Alla: > > No I do not think that this is a better parallel at all. Malfoy > provided a reason for Harry to be there, Harry would not have gone on it is own, no? Pippin: You think that five years of persecution does not provide a reason? Does Sirius have to issue a specific challenge when for five years, he and his friends have taken every chance they had to make Snape's life a misery? I agree it was not Snape's business to expose werewolves. It was likewise not Sirius's business to expose snoops, especially when he was doing it so that he and his friends could continue their illicit activities. Bottom line, when Sirius told Snape how to get into the willow, he had already done something wrong, same as it would be wrong for me to hand out the keys to a friend's house or their internet log-in. It would be an unbelievably lame excuse for me to say that I didn't tell anyone to use them. I would be morally responsible for *all* the consequences, as anyone is when they do something unethical. > Alla: > > But isn't the making excuses contradicts the not knowing part? I do > agree though that she thought she was being supportive. Pippin: I didn't think that's what she was making excuses for. I thought she was excusing Snape's choice of friends, his interest in Dark Arts, his bad temper and his awkwardness. Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 19:39:18 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:39:18 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184853 Carol's Question: > > > 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the end of the chapter the first time through? > Mike wrote: > First off, thank you Carol for a wonderful, thought provoking summary and question set. I'm sorry I only have time to respond to one, but it's the biggy for me. Carol responds: Thanks, Mike. It's good to see you posting! Mike wrote: > In a way, I was waiting for this chapter since I read the first HP book. I've always been big on backstories and this is the ultimate backstory, isn't it? Has anything else intrigued Potterphiles as much as the question of from whence Snape got his motivations and loyalties? Carol responds: Yup and nope. Agreed so far! Mike: > When I first started this chapter, I actually felt sorry for young Sev. How could you not? An awkward kid, at an awkward age, in an awkward situation of confronting another young magical person in front of her non-magical sister. The obvious implication of an abusive and poor homelife peeking out from around the edges of Sev's whole personna. I actually started to question whether I would continue to dislike this character by the end of this chapter. > > Sev stays the more likeable of the newest Hogwartians through the train ride and the sorting. Now I'm actually questioning my allegiances, at least as far as James is concerned. Carol responds: James aside, it makes you wonder (or at least, it makes me wonder) what would have happened if this young, impressionable, intelligent, and mistreated boy had found proper guidance. Dumbledore, alas, doesn't offer it even to the most promising students. Slughorn would have recognized his talents and made him a Sluggie but wouldn't have offered any moral guidance. But suppose he'd ended up in Ravenclaw, with kids who (like him) valued brain over brawn, or in Gryffindor under Mcgonagall (and without that unfortunate initial encounter with James and Sirius)? Would they have appreciated his talent and intelligence (and courage), making him a Marauder? Surely, if they could accept Peter as a member of the group, they could accept Severus, maybe working with him to help him overcome the prejudices stemming from his background,, reminding him that his friend Lily is Muggle-born? Instead, he's welcomed by Lucius Malfoy (who would, I think, have become greatly interested in him when he saw what Severus could do). To me, he seems like a boy from, say, the barrio or the ghetto, who joins a gang because he can't find acceptance any other way. Instead of James and Sirius (who, like him, are bright and talented boys with conspicuous faults), he ends up with Avery and Mulciber, who, by age fifteen, at least, have openly declared their allegiance to Voldemort. To some extent, I think Hogwarts itself, in particular the Sorting systme, is to blame for the changes we see in Severus between eleven and sixteen. And, even then, with guidance (and Lily's loyalty), I think he might have come around. Mike: > But then Sev starts to show his true colors. Sure, he wants to be accepted by his peers so he's going to try to blend in with hs fellow Slytherins. But he shows himself to be jealous of Potter and his mates long before Lily has ever shown any interest in James. He's sneaking around, trying to catch those Gryffs at something when Lily is still thinking of that Potter boy as a "toerag". And Sev is breaking the rules himself to do it, which makes him no better than the boys he's trying to get something on. Carol responds: Hm. Well. Maybe he senses that Lily is interested in James before she does. He certainly knows that James is interested in *her.* And he knows that James is a "Quidditch hero" and popular, especially in his own House, which happens to be Lily's. Of course, he's jealous. He's a teenage boy. As for sneaking around after hours to see what someone is up to, I was reminded of Harry following Draco around in HBP, sure that he's up to no good, exactly as Severus is sure that James (who hexes people in the hallway when they annoy him) and his "mates" are up to no good. That sort of thing doesn't make him a would-be Death Eater, just a kid who knows that James is a "toerag" and wants to prove it to keep Lily from being taken in by him. (See his words to her in the scene right before SWM. Mike: > Back to Severus: The fact that he was a young DE in training, does bother me more, in his case. Carol: but it's not a fact. it's the inference you (and Lily) draw from his silence. He hasn't openly declared for Voldemort like Mulciber and Avery. Even Sirius doesn't know as of his own arrest just after Godric's Hollow (and doesn't find out in prison, either) that Snape became a DE. He only knows that Severus was a member of a gang, most of whom later became DEs. I wouldn't call even Avery and Mulciber "DEs in training" at this point, more like DE wannabes, just as Harry at the same age is an Auror wannabe. It's their career plan that they haven't yet embarked on. (It's possible, of course, that like Regulus and Draco, they joined up young. Lily calls them "your precious little Death Eater friends," so maybe they've actually showed off their Dark Marks. But Severus certainly hasn't or Lily wouldn't still be speaking to him, and Sirius wouldn't be in the dark about Snape's having been a DE as late as GoF. that Snape did join the DEs at some point is, of course, indisputable, but I don't think we can safely leap to the conclusion that he's a "DE in training" at the end of his fifth year. We can, however, safely say that he's seriously contemplating joining his friends and sess what they "get up to" as no worse than what James Potter and his friends do. (And, here, since it's Lily's word against Severus's and we don't actually know what Mulciber tried to do to Mary mcDonald, we simply have to make up our own minds based on inadequate evidence and agree to disagree.) Mike: > Who knows, maybe Voldemort was still being his charming self to the outsiders and maybe Severus was taken in just like so many others were. OTOH, with all we know and all we've been lead to believe about this guy's intelligence and savvy, shouldn't we have expected a little more out of him than from the likes of Mulciber or Crabbe or Goyle? > The windswept hill scene must be after Harry's birth, which means it has to be a good three years after they all left Hogwarts. Severus Snape joined a terrorist organization and found nothing wrong with being a member of that organization for three years. It is obvious from Dumbledore's words that Snape remained a loyal DE, right up to that meeting. I cannot abide these actions and I cannot forgive him for that. In my eyes, this is not forgivable. Penitence for the rest of his life will not wash away this sin. He will forever remain a DE that converted, but a DE first. Carol responds: I think a better comparison would be Regulus, intelligent like Severus but taken in by the propaganda (an no doubt influenced, as Severus was, by the pro-Voldemort atomosphere of Slytherin House (which its unobservant HoH did nothing to suppress or redirect). I doubt that Voldemort came calling in person to recruit Severus and his friends. it doesn't work that way. More likely, he was recruited (not necessarily after his fifth year--I'd say more likely after his seventh) by Lucius Malfoy (as the pat on the back when he enters Slytherin may suggest). I think that like many other kids who join gangs (or organizations like Hitler Youth or the Young Pioneers), he needed to feel that he belonged somewhere and may even have felt (as Regulus did) that it was a worthy cause. Or he may, like Draco, have wanted some "glory" (and perhaps a dose of revenge against the Muggles who had abused or insulted him). It's not commendable, obviously. It's his biggest mistake next to revealing the Prophecy to Voldemort. But he regrets his mistakes and works all his adult life to atone for them, even saving lives of people unconnected with Harry when he can. We don't see Crabbe or Goyle (or Avery or Mulciber) do anything of the sort. BTW. Regulus joined the DEs, too, and. like Severus, he regretted it and did what he could to undermine Voldemort. Is he, too, beyond the pale, once a DE, always a DE? No distinction between, say, Dolohov and Bellatix on the one hand and Snape and Regulus on the other? If that's the way you see it, I disagree wholeheartedly. (What's the point of repentance if it doesn't earn forgiveness? Might as well remain a DE.) Carol, who believes that if we truly repent our sins and work to repair the damage, we deserve forgiveness from God and humankind From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 19:44:21 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:44:21 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184854 Pippin: You think that five years of persecution does not provide a reason? Does Sirius have to issue a specific challenge when for five years, he and his friends have taken every chance they had to make Snape's life a misery? Alla: That's a loaded phrase, five years of persecution, but for the sake of the argument, I will answer as if I agree with it. No, I do not think so. Sirius did not issue any challenge, he told Snape how to open the door to the Shack, did he not? I would agree with you, if we were shown that Sirius gave Snape any provocation, **any** reason to go to the Shack. What I see is Snape **wanting** to go there and Sirius giving him and an answer how to. Which to me just separate issue from Sirius **making Snape to go, provoking Snape to go, or entrapping Snape to go*. Pippin: I agree it was not Snape's business to expose werewolves. It was likewise not Sirius's business to expose snoops, especially when he was doing it so that he and his friends could continue their illicit activities. Alla: And I would say that it is not Sirius' business to expose his friends. Pippin: Bottom line, when Sirius told Snape how to get into the willow, he had already done something wrong, same as it would be wrong for me to hand out the keys to a friend's house or their internet log-in. It would be an unbelievably lame excuse for me to say that I didn't tell anyone to use them. Alla: Didn't I just say upthread that I agree that it was wrong for Sirius to expose a friend? So with this analogy I totally agree, however if somebody gives you a key to the room where you know something very dangerous is located and you still want to see it, um, well I think you (hypothetical you) are responsible for your choice to go there. Pippin: I would be morally responsible for *all* the consequences, as anyone is when they do something unethical. Alla: Okay. For my part, I hold Sirius responsible for unethical, stupid, irresponsible behavior towards Remus. I am sure he wanted Snape getting a werewolf scare, however, when Snape is being portrayed as the victim of entrapment or trickery, I disagree with that. I do not see how Sirius entrapped or tricked him. Snape exercised his free will to go and see if there is really werewolf there. Sirius did not **make** him to go. IMO anyways. I am definitely not saying that Sirius did something great by telling him how to go to the Shack. However again, holding him responsible for unethical behavior to me is way different then holding him responsible for entrapping Snape. In my mind, Snape and only Snape is responsible for making decision to go. Oh boy was I ready to see before book 7 not only some sort of provocation from Sirius, but also I was ready to see that maybe Snape had no clue who was in the Shack. Nope, I had seen no provocation and I am convinced that Snape knew pretty well that there was werewolf there. I wonder did Snape ever think that he was actually completely wrong to go there in the first place. Somehow I doubt that. JMO, Alla, counts to five and disappears From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 20:17:13 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:17:13 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184855 Alla wrote: > > Okay. For my part, I hold Sirius responsible for unethical, stupid, > irresponsible behavior towards Remus. I am sure he wanted Snape > getting a werewolf scare, however, when Snape is being portrayed as > the victim of entrapment or trickery, I disagree with that. I do not > see how Sirius entrapped or tricked him. > Carol responds: I certainly agree that his behavior was "unethical, stupid, [and] irresponsible toward Remus. It was pretty stupid with regard to himself as well since he'd have been expelled at the least if Severus had been bitten. And I concede that Severus is partially responsible for taking the bait. But what I think you're not accounting for is that Severus didn't know that MWPP were Animagi and could face the werewolf without harm. Sirius withheld that key piece of information, leaving Severus to think that if MWPP could safely face the werewolf, so could he. So *because* he knew that Severus could be bitten or killed and didn't tell him that the werewolf he wanted to see was not restrained in any way and *could kill him or turn him into a werewold*, Sirius *is* responsible for any consequences. It's not like handing someone a key to a tiger cage with the tiger in plain sight and saying, "Here. Get yourself killed if you want to." It would be suicide to enter the cage under those circumstances. Similarly, it would be suicide to enter a shack containing an unrestrained werewolf--and Severus, not being stupid, would know that. But he also knows that MWPP do it all the time. If it's safe for them, it must be safe for him. Wrong! Sirius is giving him a way to see what's there, to satisfy his curiosity, knowing full well that he'll take what in essence amounts to a dare *without telling him that the beast he wants to see is unrestrained and deadly. *That's* where Sirius's responsibility lies, and even as an adult, he doesn't understand that he was wholly in the wrong. Severus, too, was irresponsible. It's foolish to take a dare offered you by an enemy. There's probably a hidden catch. So in the end, we have two teenage boys playing a deadly game, one risking another's life knowing the risks and likely consequences, the other risking his own life not knowing the full risk he was taking or the likely consequence. James, to his credit, *did* know the full risk and took action to save Severus. Had he not done so, Remus would have bit Severus and the consequences not only for Severus and Remus but for Sirius himself would have been disastrous. Carol, who would judge the matter differently if Severus had known that MWPP could face the werewolf safely and he could not > Snape exercised his free will to go and see if there is really > werewolf there. Sirius did not **make** him to go. IMO anyways. I am > definitely not saying that Sirius did something great by telling him > how to go to the Shack. However again, holding him responsible for > unethical behavior to me is way different then holding him > responsible for entrapping Snape. In my mind, Snape and only Snape is > responsible for making decision to go. Oh boy was I ready to see > before book 7 not only some sort of provocation from Sirius, but also > I was ready to see that maybe Snape had no clue who was in the Shack. > > Nope, I had seen no provocation and I am convinced that Snape knew > pretty well that there was werewolf there. I wonder did Snape ever > think that he was actually completely wrong to go there in the first > place. Somehow I doubt that. > > JMO, > > Alla, counts to five and disappears > From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Thu Nov 13 20:28:41 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:28:41 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184856 > Alla: > > Okay. For my part, I hold Sirius responsible for unethical, stupid, > irresponsible behavior towards Remus. I am sure he wanted Snape > getting a werewolf scare, however, when Snape is being portrayed as > the victim of entrapment or trickery, I disagree with that. I do not > see how Sirius entrapped or tricked him. Magpie: That's what I came away thinking too, after DH. Originally I thought the point was that Snape knew that MWPP were doing something with the willow, and he probably thought they were just sneaking out or had some special secret--something that was obviously not dangerous or they wouldn't be doing it and living. In DH Lily talks about Snape's "theory" of Lupin being a werewolf in a way that either means Snape floated it as a theory *after* the Prank or before. Him saying it after the Prank doesn't make a lot of sense because the whole point is that he can't tell her (for whatever reason) the truth, that he *knows* Lupin is a werewolf. It seems weird that he's taken this point to tell her that Lupin is a werewolf only change it to a theory so that he isn't exactly revealing the truth. My impression was that Snape had already had this theory and Lily had heard it many times in the past. So Sirius had told Snape how get into the willow in order to see the werewolf. This is sounding less and less like a Prank at all and more just like straight giving Snape enough rope to hang himself. Sirius betrayed Remus by giving away the secret but if Snape was going into the willow to see the werewolf Sirius was being completely straightforward with him. Sirius is still doing something stupid and he still would have some responsibility if Snape were killed or turned because he helped him along. But he wouldn't have the kind of responsibility that he seemed to have in the past, where he tricked Snape. Snape's got pretty much 100% responsibility now for his own actions. It was still wrong of Sirius to help Snape do something stupid himself but Snape was knowingly doing something stupid. Alla: However again, holding him responsible for > unethical behavior to me is way different then holding him > responsible for entrapping Snape. Magpie: That's the distinction I would make as well after DH. Snape comes out looking all the more unreasonable being angry about it all those years later. -m From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Thu Nov 13 20:42:13 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:42:13 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184857 > Carol responds: > > I certainly agree that his behavior was "unethical, stupid, [and] > irresponsible toward Remus. It was pretty stupid with regard to > himself as well since he'd have been expelled at the least if Severus > had been bitten. > > And I concede that Severus is partially responsible for taking the > bait. But what I think you're not accounting for is that Severus > didn't know that MWPP were Animagi and could face the werewolf without > harm. Sirius withheld that key piece of information, leaving Severus > to think that if MWPP could safely face the werewolf, so could he. > > So *because* he knew that Severus could be bitten or killed and didn't > tell him that the werewolf he wanted to see was not restrained in any > way and *could kill him or turn him into a werewold*, Sirius *is* > responsible for any consequences. Magpie: Going back on my own post here, but you're right Sirius does have some responsibility for concealing the Animagi part. He knows that Snape is being brave because he must think he'll at least be protected by whatever protects MWPP. Whether he imagines the werewolf is restrained or whatever, Sirius would pretty much assume that they'd get in there and Snape would be vulnerable while he, Sirius, could just turn into a dog. Which may have been part of Sirius' plan, of course. Maybe he thought he could control Remus. Or maybe he just didn't think that far. But anyway yes, that does add a level of control to Sirius, something he's witholding that does believably change the situation and make it more of a Prank on Snape. Because he'd essentially be going into the tunnel "with" Snape, also unarmed as far as Snape knew. -m From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 21:00:59 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:00:59 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184858 > Pippin: > I don't think one can say the distancing was all on Lily's part. We > know Snape saw Madame Pomfrey taking Remus to the willow before the > prank and yet he apparently didn't tell Lily about it. Isn't that the > sort of thing you'd tell your best friend? Zara: Yes, I would, if she were receptive in the slightest. On the other hand, if I feared losing her and thought the subject of Lupin annoyed her, I might not, but I would not describe such an omission as "distancing" myself from her. We have evidence that Snape did talk to Lily about his suspicions regarding Lupin, and that his previous remarks to her on the subject were not well received. > DH: > "I know your theory," said Lily, and she sounded cold. Zara: From this, I would conclude that he has mentioned Lupin and his reasons for suspecting Lupin is a werewolf. And that she has flatly refused to believe him, and has expressed annoyance at the topic, in the past. For evidence that Snape fears losing her...in this same conversation he asks if they are still best friends. From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 23:47:58 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 23:47:58 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184859 > Mike: > But then Sev starts to show his true colors. Sure, he wants to be > accepted by his peers so he's going to try to blend in with hs fellow > Slytherins. But he shows himself to be jealous of Potter and his > mates long before Lily has ever shown any interest in James. Montavilla47: Hmm. I can't dispute that there's no in-book interest on Lily's part for James?although I don't know why Snape would think there was if there wasn't. I took that scene to show that Lily wasn't consciously aware of being attracted to James. Or that Snape had a generalized alarm that Lily might be interested in *any* boy and quick to jump on the slightest hint that she might. But what strikes me in that scene is how quick she is to believe some story she's heard about Snape sneaking around under the tunnel and unwilling to even ask about his side of the story. But... ya know... it's cause I'm biased. :) Mike: >He's > sneaking around, trying to catch those Gryffs at something when Lily > is still thinking of that Potter boy as a "toerag". And Sev is > breaking the rules himself to do it, which makes him no better than > the boys he's trying to get something on. Montavilla47: And certainly no better than Harry, who has been known to do a bit of rule-breaking in the name of catching rule-breakers himself. :) Not that that excuses Snape. Mike: > Aside: I find the criticism of Lily's actions in all this a bit > harsh. She's remained friends with this geek of a boy (admit it, he > was)... Montavilla47: Fully admitted. He was. Mike: >...despite all the probable peer pressure on her to drop him. So > while Sev is giving in, to some degree, to his Slyth buddy's peer > pressure, Lily is not. Montavilla47: Except that she is. See above note about accepting her friends' story about Snape and not asking him for his side--or even how he's feeling after nearly being killed. If he was. Mike: > And her actions in SWM take on a new light > after reading the backstory that lead up to it. She wasn't flirting > with James, she was actually trying to come to Sev's rescue. Montavilla47: Yes. Coming to the aid of her best friend, while treating him as if she didn't know him. Weirdest. Best friend. Ever. Mike: >And that > smirk when Sev's greying underpants are revealed; come on, what 16- > year-old girl wouldn't smirk for a fraction of a second upon seeing > that, even if it was your friend? Montavilla47: Wow. I wouldn't. Seriously. You made me flash back to my sixteen- year-old self with a friend who wore the same clothes every day to school because he didn't have other clothes to wear. If someone had pulled his pants down, the last thing I'd be doing would be to laugh at the shape his underpants were in. But maybe we were just a bit more sophisticated back then. It was the seventies and I think public disrobing was more in vogue. By which I mean it wasn't as likely that the sight of underwear would provoke embarrassment (and thus smiles and laughter) on the part of the spectator. Also, I grew up on the West Coast of the U.S., which is a more laid-back atmosphere than England. Mike: >It wasn't until Snape calls > her "Mudblood", a slur she knew he was using with some regularity, > that she decides enough is enough. And Snape not denying that he was > a DE in training tips the scales all the way for her. Montavilla47: Yeah, this is what I don't understand. Was it okay with Lily that Snape was using the word with some regularity as long as he didn't apply it to her? If so, why? If not, then why didn't she complain about it before? Because I kind of get the idea that if she had, he'd have stopped using it pronto. Mike: > Back to Severus: The fact that he was a young DE in training, does > bother me more, in his case. Who knows, maybe Voldemort was still > being his charming self to the outsiders and maybe Severus was taken > in just like so many others were. OTOH, with all we know and all > we've been lead to believe about this guy's intelligence and savvy, > shouldn't we have expected a little more out of him than from the > likes of Mulciber or Crabbe or Goyle? Montavilla47: I agree with you. What the heck was he thinking? I did expect better from the guy who called himself "The Half-Blood Prince." Mike: > The final straw, the one that sealed the deal for me, was the scene > on the windswept hill. That's when I knew I had pegged Snape for who > he was. You see, I kept looking for a sign that Snape had joined up > with the DEs as an infiltration move. Or, lacking that from the > start, had quickly realized his mistake and opted for spydom and > working against LV as an alternative to turning tail and running, > leading to his probable early demise. But no such altruistic reason > was forthcoming. > > Instead, we get the sad and disappointing lost love but still pining > for his Lily reason. OK, that's not an altogether unexpected nor > totally self-centered reason for changing sides. Yet it is somewhat > egotistic and very much too sappy for my taste. But the basis for my > belief that Snape doesn't win my support is the timing. I know JKR is > poor with her numbers, but I think in this case holding to the > timeline to be a credible exercise. > > The windswept hill scene must be after Harry's birth, which means it > has to be a good three years after they all left Hogwarts. Severus > Snape joined a terrorist organization and found nothing wrong with > being a member of that organization for three years. It is obvious > from Dumbledore's words that Snape remained a loyal DE, right up to > that meeting. I cannot abide these actions and I cannot forgive him > for that. In my eyes, this is not forgivable. Penitence for the rest > of his life will not wash away this sin. He will forever remain a DE > that converted, but a DE first. Montavilla47: Yep. Can't disagree with you--except that there's a little wiggle room in that he might not have joined immediately after school (or, as some suspect, while he was *in* school). But does that mean that sin can never be washed away? Mike: > Nothing that came later in this chapter was either surprising or > transformative of my opinion of Snape. I thought he would prove less > malleable to Dumbledore, but that was not a big revelation. I ended > the chapter with the same opinion I had of Snape going into it. > > There, how's that for recalling what I felt the first time through? > I'll just never like Severus Snape! Montavilla47: Which is entirely your right. Thanks for the post! From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 23:57:43 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 23:57:43 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184860 > > Leah: She's actually given up on the friendship in her own mind > > before the > > werewolf prank. If you knew that your friend, let alone your best > > friend, had been saved from some serious danger, you might make > some > > attempt to talk to them about it. Lily clearly hasn't. Her comment > > in the 'apology' scene, 'my friends wonder...', not 'my other > > friends' is another indicator. > > Alla: > > We do not know what is on her mind. I completely disagree that she > gave up on friendship before that. She knows that Snape is her > friend, I think it would be just awkward prose to say my other > friends, IMO of course. Montavilla47: I agree that "my other friends" is an awkward construction," but she wasn't limited to that. She could have said, "My girlfriends" since at this time she's presumably not friends with James "Toerag" Potter and his gang. Which pretty much leaves her just the girls in Gryffindor to be her big friends. Unless Snape is such a loser that even the people in Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff wonder why she tolerates him. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 01:07:57 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 01:07:57 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184861 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Does everyone think Lily was aware beforehand that he was using that > word? zanooda: It's really hard to tell, but I think that you may be right, and it's quite possible Lily didn't know *for sure* that Severus was using the word. Maybe she heard about it and even suspected it might be true, but it's not the same as actually hearing him say it. I suppose he was careful not to use it in front of her :-). It's even possible (but less likely, IMO) that Lily found out about Severus using the word only *after* SWM. Many kids witnessed the "Mudblood incident", and someone could tell her afterwards: "Lily, why are you so surprised? He and his friends do it all the time, didn't you know? They called *me* Mudblood just yesterday". Anyway, I tend to agree with you that it's possible Lily was not sure that Snape was using the word Mudblood outside of his circle. It seems unlikely that she would hear him call someone Mudblood and do nothing about it until she was called Mudblood herself. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 05:20:56 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 05:20:56 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184862 Carol: Guess I should respond to some of my own questions! > > 1. Why do you think that JKR (or the narrator) refers to Snape as "the Prince" here and in "The Flight of the Prince" in HBP? Carol: I don't think there's one right answer to this question, but I find it intriguing that "Flight of the Prince" (in which the HBP' identity is revealed) follows Snape's "murder" of Dumbledore and "The Prince's Tale" (which sounds like a fairytale title or something out of Chaucer) follows Voldemort's murder of Snape. The parallelism or mirroring is obviously deliberate. It's as if Harry has come to think of Snape as "the Prince" (the nickname that he used for the HBP when he thought of him as his friend and teahcer). It seems to indicate full understanding and acceptance. True, the narrator still refers to him as Snape, but it's as if he's no longer the hated professor--one side of Snape viewed without understanding or compassion--but the whole person, boy and man, who loved Harry's mother and called himself the Half-Blood Prince and faced mortal peril to protect a boy he didn't like. > > 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of [their] dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead? Carol: Voldemort's "dispose of your dead with dignity," aside from being part of the rules of medieval warfare that someone mentioned (he like to go through the formalities ("We bow to one another, Harry" in the graveyard) strikes me as a pretense of humanity (like the statements he makes about admiring courage and being merciful) from someone who has no idea, not the faintest, how it feels to lose a loved one. You don't *dispose* of your dead with dignity, not if you have any choice in the matter. You bury them with honor, you hold a funeral service, and you mourn. I can't imagine what he thinks they would do in an hour--magically dig a mass grave or somehow cremate all the bodies with a fire that won't burn down the building? Maybe he's just referring to gathering the corpses so they won't be trampled on in the next segment of the battle, if any, but it just struck me as cold inhumanity posing as humane and reasonable. > > 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think the password changed and who or what changed it? Carol: I think it would be really odd for Snape to have used a password that so clearly reflected his loyalties all year long, with DEs on the staff who expect him to be loyal to Voldemort. (If he didn't use this password all year, I've probably been a bit too hard on McGonagall for not guessing that Snape was a good guy!) It seems to me more likely that he changed it to "Dumbledore at the last minute (when he knew Harry was coming and Voldemort would soon follow). He must have realized that, Nagini or no Nagini, it was time to give Harry the memories, which he'd need the Pensieve to view. He may have set out the Pensieve on the desk (instead of leaving it in the cabinet) at the same time. > > 5. Little Severus is described as "stringy," the same word that the narrator uses to describe both the teenage Severus and Theodore Nott in OoP. Did you think of Theo when you read the description of little Severus, and, if so, what connection, if any, did you see between the two Slytherin boys? Carol: Obviously, I was reminded of Theo or I wouldn't have asked the question. In many ways, he seems like a young Snape, an intelligent loner who happens to look "stringy" (gangly and undernourished, maybe)? Theo would also, I think, be a neglected child, no mother and an elderly father who's imprisoned at the end of OoP when Theo is fifteen or sixteen. who took care of him over the summer while his father was in prison? Poor Theo. I'd like to know his story--and where his loyalties lie. In other circumstances, maybe Snape would have recognized a kindred spirit and taken him under his wing. > > 8. Severus tells Lily that only wizards who "do really bad stuff" are sent to Azkaban. What does this remark reveal about his sense of good and evil and age nine or ten? Carol: I thought that JKR's depiction of a child's sense of good and evil was spot on, and it's interesting that Severus is perfectly normal in this respect--bad people go to prison, but not kids who do accidental magic. That wouldn't be fair (and fairness is a large part of a child's perspective). His view contrasts sharply with young Tom Riddle's amoral, egocentric perspective. It also shows, I think, that with guidance he could have become a good and happy man. He's eager to learn, sure that he's destined for greatness, but ambition is a Slytherin trait and not always bad. He just needed direction that he never received. > > 9. Severus is obviously lying when he denies dropping the tree branch on Petunia, but neither his words nor his "scared and defiant" expression make clear whether the magic is accidental or deliberate. Which do you think it is and why? Why doesn't something similar happen to James and Sirius in SWM where Severus is also wandless? Carol: I do, of course, think that the magic was accidental, but I tried to keep my wording objective. Severus's reaction reminds me of that of a Muggle child who's playing a bit too carelessly or roughly and accidentally knocks over and breaks a vase. Yes, he knocked it over; yes, he was playing too rough; yes, it's his fault, but *he didn't mean to.* I think that's why Severus is both confused and defiant; he didn't deliberately drop the tree branch, but he did want something bad to happen to Petunia and he knows perfectly well that his own (accidental) magic made the branch drop, just as Harry knows perfectly well that his (accidental) magic blew up Aunt Marge because he wanted something bad to happen to *her.* Harry is thirteen and has been using a wand for two years when this incident happens, so accidental magic doesn't stop instantly after a kid masters a wand. I think it can happen on occasion even to adults when they're not in control of their emotions (the jar of cockroaches being a possible example). Why didn't it happen in SWM, then? I don't know. But if Severus could *deliberately* drop a tree branch on Petunia at age nine or ten, as Alla thinks, surely he could have done something similar--and more drastic--at age sixteen? BTW, peole talk about Lily controlling her magic. I'm guessing that at one point she fell out of a swing and discovered that she was unhurt, so she practiced and perfected that particular trick. Same thing with the flower petals opening and closing. It happened the first time by accident and she practiced that particular trick till she could control it (contrast poor Ariana Dumbledore, who was too young to repeat or even understand what she'd done). We don't know to what extent little Severus can control his magic--or how he learned all those "curses" that Sirius Black claims he came to school knowing. all we know is that he knows he's a wizard, so clearly, he's done something to reassure his mother that he's not a Squib. And she wouldn't have told him about Hogwarts and the WW if she weren't sure of his magical abilities. > 10. Why does Petunia call Lily a "freak" (the same word that she uses in SS/PS some twenty years later)? What justification, if any, do you see for her view that sending "weirdos" like Lily and Severus to Hogwarts will protect the "normal people"? Do you see any connection with the Statute of Secrecy? Carol: I see Petunia here as a foil to Severus--his mirror image--prejudiced against Wizards just as he's prejudiced against Muggles, and for similar reasons. (She hasn't actually been abused, unless we count the tree branch, but she's been sneered at and viewed as inferior and excluded.) The Statute of Secrecy does, in a way, isolate wizards from "normal" people, though of course, that's not it's purpose. It was intended to protect Wizards (who view *themselves* as the "normal" people) from witch-burning, witch-hanging Muggles who take views like Petunia's to extremes. And, of course, anti-Muggle or anti-Muggle-born prejudice taken to extremes by DEs and Voldemort is simply the reverse of that coin. > > 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier > onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)? Carol: Thanks to everyone who answered this question, but I'm still bugged by the Evans's presence. It jarred me to see Muggeles on Platform 9 3/4; we've never seen Hermione's parents there; they wait for her outside the platform along with the Muggle Dursleys. Getting into Diagon Alley is different; all you need is a Wizard escort to tap the bricks and the arch actually dissolves. In King's Cross, you're going through a solid wall (which can, admittedly, be closed even to Wizards if Dobby's around). I think it's something like the barrier that only people with a Dark Mark can pass through in HBP: you have to be magical to go through the wall. Evidently, I'm a minority of one on this point! > > 12. And what's your reaction to James's imaginary Sword of Gryffindor, raised in defense of chivalry? Carol: Pippin pointed out, rightly, that we don't know that it's the Sword of Gryffindor. Nevertheless, I think it is. James's parents were both at Hogwarts and probably both Gryffindors. They've clearly extolled the virtues of Gryffindor to him as Severus's mother (and probably Sirius's parents) have extolled the virtues of Slytherin. James is holding up a sword, associated with chivalry in tales of knights, so maybe he's read about the Knights of the Round Table, but the only Wizard in those stories is Merlin: the knights are Muggles. It seems to me at least *likely* that the imaginary sword he's holding is the Sword of the legendary Godric Gryffindor. And James's words, "Where dwell the brave at heart!" are straight from the Sorting Hat (which perhaps has reused some of its songs rather than composing new ones every year for a thousand years. Maybe there's a regular cycle of seven, varied only in times of crisis when a new song is called for.) It's ironic that James, who values chivalry, turns out to be a bully, even on the Hogwarts Express. (maybe he needed some guidance, too!) > > 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya, > Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think so? Carol: We don't know, of course, and maybe, as some people have said, it's not important, but I think it was Sirius, in part because, as someone pointed out, James trips Severus, so it makes sense for Sirius to add insult to (intended) injury rather than having James do both, and in part because Sirius clings to the nickname and uses it not only in SWM but even in his own house as an adult, neither he nor Severus having grown past the mutual antipathy they developed as children. (I don't think it's one of the "rowdy boys," who take no part in the conversation. It seems more likely to be Sirius expressing solidarity with his new friend--and making sure that his friend doesn't associate him with Slytherin despite his family background.) > > 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting Severus's back? Why include that detail? Carol: I think it foreshadows Snape's relationship to the older and probably charming Prefect Lucius Malfoy, in some respects his role model. Sirius sneeringly referred to Snape as Malfoy's "lapdog," surely a reference to the year or two when Severus was a child and Lucius a Prefect who deigned to pay attention to him, probably, if Sirius is right about all those hexes that Severus knew before he came to school, impressed by the little boy's precocity and talent. And if Lucius was a budding DE at that point (Voldemort having newly risen), he could have kept the boy in mind as a prospective recruit. Some sort of friendship is suggested here, but not a friendship of equals: blood, class, and age would all cause Lucius to think himself superior to Severus, but he could exercise noblesse oblige to make sure that the boy's talents were put to good, or should I say bad, use. On Severus's side, this initial kind (or condescending) gesture may have made him feel at home, and he would feel gratitude and admiration for Lucius. > > 15. Lily's version of the so-called Prank?Severus "sneaking" around the Shrieking Shack and being saved by James from "whatever's down there" sounds a lot like Sirius's version in PoA except that everyone in the PoA scene knows what's down there. Do you think that Sirius is Lily's source? Why or why not? Why do you think she rejects Severus's "theory" (obviously, that Lupin is a werewolf)? Carol: I do think that Sirius is Lily's source, making James sound like a hero and concealing "whatever's down there." I doubt that James would have bragged about it himself, and Remus certainly wouldn't. The reference to "Severus" as "sneaking" and the concealment of what's down there sound like Sirius to me. Certainly, it's not an objective or complete account of what happened; the goal would be to make the "toerag" look heroic in Lily's eyes. As for why she rejects his "theory," I don't know. Maybe she thinks it's implausible that Dumbledore would let a werewolf into the school. Maybe she has a mental image of werewolves as Fenrir Greyback types that doesn't fit the quiet Lupin (who's also her fellow Prefect, however ineffectual). Probably denial plays some part. The signs Severus has pointed out to her are obvious enough, but she won't or can't believe them. > > 16. Aside from not wanting to repeat a nine-page scene in detail, why do you think JKR condenses Snape's worst memory to a single paragraph? Is the tactic effective? Note especially the last line, "Distantly, he heard Snape shout at her in his humiliation and his fury, the unforgivable word: Mudblood." Carol: Several people have pointed out that the significance of the memory in terms of Snape's story is in the last word, but I was also hoping that people would actually reread the paragraph and note *Harry's* perspective. We don't get a rerun of the memory in part because he's stationed himself as far as possible from James and his friends; he doesn't want a rerun of that side of James's personality. I think he's identifying with or at least compassionating with Severus here, and he understands that the "unforgiveable word" is the result of "humiliation and fury"--a mistake that can't be undone. > > 17. The adult Snape is marvelously articulate, often brilliantly sardonic and sometimes even poetic, yet the teenage Severus is often at a loss for words, and even the young adult Snape seems tongue-tied in the hilltop scene with Dumbledore. What do you think happened in the twelve or so years between the hilltop and Harry's first year at Hogwarts to turn Snape into the snarky, sarcastic Potions master that we encounter in SS/PS? Carol: It's true that we see Severus under duress in almost all these situations. Certainly, the HBP was already snarky and clever. And yet Severus at sixteen is still "stringy" and slightly hunched over from too much reading (rather like Hermione). It seems to me that at some point, either during his DE years or as a young teacher at Hogwarts, he gained confidence and learned the power of a sarcastic word. He seems to have cultivated sweeping movements and poetic phrases, as if he's building a persona behind which to hide (maybe the Half-Blood Prince rather than little Severus Snape, the boy from the wrong side of the river). He sounds like a Pure-blood and an aristocrat most of the time--except when he loses his self-control. In a way, it's like the persona that Voldemort hides behind, escept that Snape hasn't lost his humanity--he's just hiding it. Only weak people, he thinkds, wear their hearts on their sleeves. And he doesn't want anyone to know what he's thinking, either. Occlumency is supplemented with acting, which he mentions to Draco in HBP. > > 18. What do you think Dumbledore means when he tells Snape, "If I know [Harry], he will have arranged matters so that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort"? Carol: On one level, of course, he's talking about the Horcruxes, but he also means that Harry will understand that he has to sacrifice himself and he won't raise a wand to defend himself. That's the secret to the powerful Love magic which, ultimately, is more important to Voldemort's defeat than the Elder Wand. > > 19. We get only a few hints of what Harry is feeling as he witnesses these scenes, and yet he goes from hating Snape and wanting revenge against him to publicly defending him and ultimately naming his second son after him and Dumbledore. Aside from the shock of Snape's death, which scenes do you feel had the most impact on Harry's change of heart and why? Carol: I think its' the cumulative effect of the scenes in sequence. The first few show his relationship with Lily and make him essentially a sympathetic figure, or rather, one whose horrible clothes and status as an outsider Harry can identify with. The next few show that he still loved Lily despite his fall and that his remorse was genuine and anguished. The remainder show Snape as Dumbledore's man even after DD's death. Of these memories, probably the most important for Harry are the rerun of SWM now that he knows the background, the explanation of why Snape killed Dumbledore, and the Doe Patronus. But it's the sequence, the involuntary identification with Snape, that does the trick. Snape is no longer "the man he hated;" he's worthy of a public vindication (and eventually naming his second son after). > > 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter? Why did *Snape* choose them? Carol: I think JKR chose them because they were necessary to tell Snape's story from a perspective that Harry could identify with. DE memories or memories of his life with Tobias Snape would only detract from the Lily-centric focus. Snape, I think, chose them (in advance) knowing that Lily was the key to getting Harry to trust him enough to accept the one message that Snape *had* to deliver, the one about sacrificing himself (which also shows the doe Patronus). He could have stopped there, but he wanted Harry to know that the injury to George's ear was an accident and that he had delivered the Sword of Gryffindor. Snape, I think, wanted Harry to understand as well as trust him. It goes beyond knowing that he loved Lily and knowing that he was loyal to Dumbledore. He wants Harry to know that he was protecting him even though he hated him; that he, too, repeatedly risked his life to bring down Voldemort. The memories are *not* chosen to make snape look good. Many of them show him at his most vulnerable and inarticulate. But, taken together, they show that he, more than Harry, loved Lily. He, too, was Dumbledore's man through and through. > > 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the end of the chapter the first time through? Carol: Fair-weather friend that I am, I had some doubts about Snape. I desperately *wanted* him to be good, but once in awhile I fell for the red herrings, mostly in "the Sacking of Severus Snape." So "The Prince's Tale" saved my sanity. I shed tears of joy over it because, yes, he was Dumbledore's man after all and I should have trusted my heart rather than my skeptical brain. I hadn't wanted his motivation to be Lily. I didn't and don't like Lily in the chapter. I was shocked by Dumbledore's words and actions in many places. But all in all, I was happy that Snape was presented in such a way that most readers could sympathize or empathize with him and Harry could at last view him as a kindred spirit or fellow traveler rather than a mean teacher or the murderer against whom he wanted revenge. The loss of the desire for revenge may even be as important as the knowledge that he has to sacrifice himself in preparing him for the next terrible step. Many thanks to SSS for her invaluable suggestions and comments and apologies for the one typo that sneaked in there. If you missed it, I'm not telling you where it is! Carol, who would pick a shorter chapter next time if there were any more to pick! From jkoney65 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 23:02:14 2008 From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 23:02:14 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184863 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Zara" wrote: > > > jkoney65: > > I think that Dumbledore was trying to prod Snape into being a > better > > person with all his little "digs" at him. I think he wanted Snape > to > > stand up for himself and show what type of person he could be and > to > > leave the petty stuff behind him. Unfortunately Snape never did > this > > as he showed when he wanted to know what Dumbledore was telling > > Harry. It took some massaging of Snape's ego at that point to keep > > things on track. > > Zara: > I disagree that Snape wanting to know what Albus was telling Harry > was primarily about ego. Snape's life mission was, at that point, to > help Albus to protect Harry so Harry could live, as Lily would have > wanted. WE only saw Snape complaining about being in the dark about > this in the HBP part of the timeline. Specifically, well after Snape > had agreed that he would, before the year was out, kill Albus to > spare him a worse death at the hands of other Death Eaters. > > How Snape was supposed to accomplish his mission of protection > without Dumbledore, and without any idea of what Harry was up to, I > personally cannot see. Snape must have thought that he needed to know. > > In the conversation after the argument in the Forest, I would not say > he particularly massaged Snape's ego. On the contrary, he insulted > him. jkoney There was no reason for Snape to know what he was telling Harry. Snape is a spy. You don't give a spy more information than he needs. There is always the possibility that he is going to get caught. There is also the possibility that Voldemort knows about him already and is playing Snape. In either scenario it dangerous and foolish to give Snape more information than he needs. Do you really think that Snape would except hollow praise? Or straight forward praise of any kind? Do communicate with Snape you have to talk to him in a way that he understands. Prodding, teasing, and sarcasm are things he understands. From jkoney65 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 23:15:04 2008 From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 23:15:04 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > > Alla wrote: > > > > Okay. For my part, I hold Sirius responsible for unethical, stupid, > > irresponsible behavior towards Remus. I am sure he wanted Snape > > getting a werewolf scare, however, when Snape is being portrayed as > > the victim of entrapment or trickery, I disagree with that. I do not > > see how Sirius entrapped or tricked him. > > > Carol responds: > > I certainly agree that his behavior was "unethical, stupid, [and] > irresponsible toward Remus. It was pretty stupid with regard to > himself as well since he'd have been expelled at the least if Severus > had been bitten. > > And I concede that Severus is partially responsible for taking the > bait. But what I think you're not accounting for is that Severus > didn't know that MWPP were Animagi and could face the werewolf without > harm. Sirius withheld that key piece of information, leaving Severus > to think that if MWPP could safely face the werewolf, so could he. > > So *because* he knew that Severus could be bitten or killed and didn't > tell him that the werewolf he wanted to see was not restrained in any > way and *could kill him or turn him into a werewold*, Sirius *is* > responsible for any consequences. > jkoney If Snape is as intelligent as some people believe he had to know what facing a werewolf was all about. They cover it in third year. His theory is that Lupin is a werewolf and he's going to go out and uncover it, even though it appears that the staff knows about this. At this point it is no one's fault but Snape's if he decides to go investigate the alleged werewolf. He knows what he believes but still goes looking. He can't expect to find it chained up. Anyone with a bit of common sense is going to assume that if you go looking for something that you are sure is there, then it is going to be there. If so, you have to take your own precautions (like having a teacher come with you) otherwise you are going to face the consequences of your actions(which he still wasn't able to do years later). He's just lucky that James saved him. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 19:43:50 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:43:50 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Does everyone think Lily was aware beforehand that he was using that > word? zanooda: Hard to tell, but I believe it's possible that Lily didn't know *for sure* Severus was using the word. Maybe she just heard from other people that he was, but it's not the same as to actually hear him using it. I suppose he was careful enough not to do it in front of her :-). It's even possible that Lily found out about it *after* the SWM. Many kids witnessed "the Mudblood incident", and someone could tell her later: "Lily, why are you so surprised? He and his friends call people "that" all the time. Didn't you know?". Maybe she wouldn't have believed it *before* Sev called her Mudblood, but she certainly would believe it *after*. From leahstill at hotmail.com Fri Nov 14 09:01:13 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 09:01:13 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jkoney65" wrote: > > jkoney > If Snape is as intelligent as some people believe he had to know what > facing a werewolf was all about. They cover it in third year. His > theory is that Lupin is a werewolf and he's going to go out and > uncover it, even though it appears that the staff knows about this. > > At this point it is no one's fault but Snape's if he decides to go > investigate the alleged werewolf. He knows what he believes but still > goes looking. He can't expect to find it chained up. Anyone with a > bit of common sense is going to assume that if you go looking for > something that you are sure is there, then it is going to be there. > If so, you have to take your own precautions (like having a teacher > come with you) otherwise you are going to face the consequences of > your actions(which he still wasn't able to do years later). He's just > lucky that James saved him. Leah: You assume that Snape's focus is on Were!Lupin. IMO what his focus is actually on is what 'Potter and his mates get up to'. That's what he first refers to in his conversation with Lily and then moves on logically to Lupin. My view is that if Lupin wasn't a Marauder, was in Ravenclaw for example, Snape would have had no interest in going to have a look at him. He might have worked out he was a werewolf as Hermione works out Lupin, but I can't see him bothering to take the risk of getting actual proof. Why should he? - as a lot of people have pointed out, he knew the school knew, because he'd seen Lupin going to the Willow with Madam Pomfrey, and he could therefore assume Lupin was in a safe place. However, Lupin is one of the Marauders. Snape knows that James fancies Lily. He is afraid that Lily is beginning to like James. Snape thinks the Marauders are dangerous and one of the reasons for this is he thinks they hang out with a transformed werewolf. He is absolutely right of course. He's tried to warn Lily, but she won't have it ("I know your theory"). So he needs proof. It's risky, but as we see Snape spends at least four years of his adult life putting himself 'in mortal danger' for Lily, Teenage!Severus might have been willing to do the same. The crux of the matter, though, as Carol has pointed out, is that Snape believes the Marauders interact with Were!Lupin. They can do so because they are animagi, a crucial fact that Snape is not told. If Snape believes that three teenage boys can hang out with a werewolf, logic dictates that the werewolf is restrained in some way, and that it wouldn't be *that* dangerous for a fourth teenage boy to go under the Willow. Thinking about the animagi gives an insight into Sirius' remark that the Prank served Snape right because Snape was sneaking about trying to get the Marauders expelled. As I state above, while I don't imagine Snape would have been distressed had the Marauders been expelled, I don't think that was what he was up to. However, the Marauders are doing something for which they could probably be expelled-they are unregistered animagi. Rita Skeeter, a very worldly adult, was so afraid of being unmasked as an animagus that she let a fifteen year old girl blackmail her. Further, they are betraying Dumbledore's initiative in letting Lupin into school by taking him outside the grounds and having a number of 'near misses'. The more Snape prods around, the more likely he is to discover these facts. So did Sirius set up the Prank just to get Snape off their backs, to give him a good scare, to put him in James' debt, or to actually turn or kill him? Snape certainly believes the latter and that's why he doesn't let go of the Prank. And putting yourself at some risk does not excuse murder. For example,if a prostitute is killed by a man whose car she has climbed into while provactively dressed, that man is still (quite rightly) guilty of murder. Leah (who tried to post some of this before and hopes it doesn't duplicate) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 12:51:49 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:51:49 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184868 Leah: So did Sirius set up the Prank just to get Snape off their backs, to give him a good scare, to put him in James' debt, or to actually turn or kill him? Snape certainly believes the latter and that's why he doesn't let go of the Prank. And putting yourself at some risk does not excuse murder. Alla: So Sirius set up the Prank after all? He told Snape how to get into the Shack. **That** is the set up you are referring to? And all that Snape did is put yourself in **some risk**, some risk meaning he willingly went to see a werewolf. I will be rearranging some parts of your post, it is more convenient for me to answer that way, apologies about that. Leah: The crux of the matter, though, as Carol has pointed out, is that Snape believes the Marauders interact with Were!Lupin. They can do so because they are animagi, a crucial fact that Snape is not told. If Snape believes that three teenage boys can hang out with a werewolf, logic dictates that the werewolf is restrained in some way, and that it wouldn't be *that* dangerous for a fourth teenage boy to go under the Willow. Alla: I meant to address it on Carol or Magpie's post, but I may as well address it in yours. So Sirius of course does not tell Snape that they are animagi. Funny how in the third year he seems to know all their names anyways, but for the sake of argument let's say he does not know that they are animagi and never known, after all he does seem to be surprised at the end of GoF. How does that translate into **logic dictate that werewolf is restrained in some way**. Because it certainly does not translate into that for me. Snape loves DADA, Snape knows what werewolf is and werewolf can do, meaning how dangerous it is to go meet with him. He does not know what Potter and his mates are up to, however he certainly knows that they are up to **something**, does he not? After all they hung with werewolf and they live. To me logically that means that Snape assumes that they know some sort of magic, which he does not. To me that means that Snape understand that it is **more** dangerous for him to go have a date with werewolf because Potter and his mates know something he does not. And he goes there anyways. Leah: For example, if a prostitute is killed by a man whose car she has climbed into while provocatively dressed, that man is still (quite rightly) guilty of murder. Alla: Huh? I do not understand how this analogy applies at all. Is Snape prostitute dressed provocatively or Lupin? No matter which one I do not get it. Magpie: That's what I came away thinking too, after DH. Originally I thought the point was that Snape knew that MWPP were doing something with the willow, and he probably thought they were just sneaking out or had some special secret--something that was obviously not dangerous or they wouldn't be doing it and living. Alla: Yes, yes me too! Alla: However again, holding him responsible for > unethical behavior to me is way different then holding him > responsible for entrapping Snape. Magpie: That's the distinction I would make as well after DH. Snape comes out looking all the more unreasonable being angry about it all those years later. Alla: Yes! Magpie: Going back on my own post here, but you're right Sirius does have some responsibility for concealing the Animagi part. He knows that Snape is being brave because he must think he'll at least be protected by whatever protects MWPP. Whether he imagines the werewolf is restrained or whatever, Sirius would pretty much assume that they'd get in there and Snape would be vulnerable while he, Sirius, could just turn into a dog. Alla: Ok, maybe you could explain to me how that changes anything. I mean, if this information should change something , it should change something for Snape's mindset, no? Obviously even when Sirius tells Snape this information he does not have kind thoughts towards Snape, at the very least he wants him to be scared by werewolf, yes? So, see above, I am just now sure how that changes anything for Snape. I do not see how him knowing that Marauders hang with werewolf and live suddenly translates into him thinking that this means there will be less danger for him. They are all wizards, so obviously Marauders came up with something, otherwise they would not have lived to see the light of the day. Snape does not know what that something is and goes there anyway. JMO, Alla From leahstill at hotmail.com Fri Nov 14 13:30:57 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 13:30:57 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184869 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Alla: > > So Sirius set up the Prank after all? He told Snape how to get into > the Shack. **That** is the set up you are referring to? Leah: Yes, that seems to be admitted by pretty much everyone involved, Dumbledore, Lupin, Snape, Sirius himself. > And all that Snape did is put yourself in **some risk**, some risk > meaning he willingly went to see a werewolf. Leah: Yes, I said that, and I explained why I thought he did it. > > > I meant to address it on Carol or Magpie's post, but I may as well > address it in yours. So Sirius of course does not tell Snape that > they are animagi. Funny how in the third year he seems to know all > their names anyways, Leah: They address each other by those names in SWM, IIRC, so it's probable that people knew they called themselves Wormtail etc. No one seems to have concluded that they were animagi based on that. >How does that translate into > **logic dictate that werewolf is restrained in some way**. Because it > certainly does not translate into that for me. Snape loves DADA, > Snape knows what werewolf is and werewolf can do, meaning how > dangerous it is to go meet with him. He does not know what Potter > and his mates are up to, however he certainly knows that they are up > to **something**, does he not? After all they hung with werewolf and > they live. To me logically that means that Snape assumes that they > know some sort of magic, which he does not. To me that means that > Snape understand that it is **more** dangerous for him to go have a > date with werewolf because Potter and his mates know something he > does not. And he goes there anyways. Leah: Why should he assume it is magic done by the Marauders? He knows the school knows about Lupin, he knows Madam Pomphrey takes Lupin to the Willow. The logical assumption surely is that Lupin is restrained in some way by official magic, ie magic done by Dumbledore or someone else in authority at the school. Quite possibly he is restrained in some way and the Marauders let him loose. > > Leah: > > > For > example, if a prostitute is killed by a man whose car she has climbed > into while provocatively dressed, that man is still (quite rightly) > guilty of murder. > > Alla: > > Huh? I do not understand how this analogy applies at all. Is Snape > prostitute dressed provocatively or Lupin? No matter which one I do > not get it. Leah: Snape. There have been a few posts that suggest because Snape took the risk of going to the Willow, all blame for anything that happened there, including a possible murder attempt by Sirius, falls onto Snape. I am just pointing out that is not how the (Muggle)law works. If someone puts themselves into a position of risk (ie getting into a car with an unknown man or someone intervening in a fight, or someone confronting an armed robber , if you want other examples, and as a result of that, they are killed deliberately, that is still murder. Their recklessness does not get the murderer off the hook. > Magpie: > > That's the distinction I would make as well after DH. Snape comes out > looking all the more unreasonable being angry about it all those > years later. > Leah: Well, I dont' make that particular distinction. However, Snape is angry not just because he thinks Sirius got away with murder, but because of what he (and the rest of the cast) think Sirius did afterwards. He has clearly told Dumbledore that he believes Sirius tried to murder him at 16, ("my memory is as good as ever, Severus") but at that time Dumbledore chose not to believe him, or not to punish Sirius, or whatever happened. Sirius then apparently goes on to betray the Potters, something he wouldn't have been able to do if he'd been sent to Azkaban earlier. In POA, he then appears to be threatening Harry (he's already broken Ron's leg), and making a mock of Snape's promise to protect Harry, just as he apparently made a mock of Snape's attempt to save Lily. Snape's anger is not just about the Prank, although that's the impression we're given in POA, it's about what everyone thinks Sirius did next. Leah From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Nov 14 14:19:58 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:19:58 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184870 > Carol: You > don't *dispose* of your dead with dignity, not if you have any choice > in the matter. You bury them with honor, you hold a funeral service, > and you mourn. it just struck me as cold > inhumanity posing as humane and reasonable. Potioncat: Of course you would pick up on the wording. It is all wrong, isn't it? I think you've nailed it, "inhumanity posing as humane." > Carol: Poor Theo. I'd like to know his story--and where > his loyalties lie. In other circumstances, maybe Snape would have > recognized a kindred spirit and taken him under his wing. > > Potioncat: Theo was discussed quite a bit before HBP. Is it just the 2 of us who still call Theodore Nott "Theo"? His back story and Dean's backstory are ones I'd like to read. Then again, maybe I'd rather just imagine them myself. Carol: > > BTW, peole talk about Lily controlling her magic. I'm guessing that at > one point she fell out of a swing and discovered that she was unhurt, > so she practiced and perfected that particular trick. Same thing with > the flower petals opening and closing. Potioncat: But, other than Tom Riddle, we don't see anyone doing intentional wandless magic. Not even adults. OK, Snape's flying, but even then, he has a wand. But, as for accidental magic, I wonder if blowing up 12 Muggles was acccidental? We've always wondered how poor Peter has managed to work such amazing magic. Speaking of the flower, it's description always seemed very creepy and particulary sexual. (Freud is helping me with this one, sorry Carol.) It gives this incidence of playing with magic a "playing doctor" sort of feel. Particulary since Petunina is both fascinated and repulsed and Severus is watching from behind the bushes. > > Carol: > I see Petunia here as a foil to Severus--his mirror image-- prejudiced > against Wizards just as he's prejudiced against Muggles, and for > similar reasons. (She hasn't actually been abused, unless we count the > tree branch, but she's been sneered at and viewed as inferior and > excluded.) Potioncat: We also know her parents were very proud of Lily's magic. That's something Petunia couldn't compete with. I'm not saying the parents in any way abused or neglected Petunia. It's difficult sometimes to take pride in one child's abilities without making the other child feel inferior. > Carol: > Thanks to everyone who answered this question, but I'm still bugged by > the Evans's presence. It jarred me to see Muggeles on Platform 9 3/4; > we've never seen Hermione's parents there; they wait for her outside > the platform along with the Muggle Dursleys. Potioncat: You've brought up a detail I hadn't thought of before. Why are the Muggle parents waiting outside if they can get in? Obviously the WW hasn't provided a way for them to enter without their child in tow. We never saw Hermione being sent off by her parents and the Dursleys never did more than drop Harry off--if they even took him to the station at all. (I can't remember.) So we don't know if the child could get the parents in. By the same token, Harry didn't have a clue how to enter. > > Carol: James is > holding up a sword, associated with chivalry in tales of knights, so > maybe he's read about the Knights of the Round Table, but the only > Wizard in those stories is Merlin: the knights are Muggles. It seems > to me at least *likely* that the imaginary sword he's holding is the > Sword of the legendary Godric Gryffindor. Potioncat: Merlin is on the chocolate frog cards, so the WW must have their own stories about him. But that makes me think, why would a wizard have a sword? Would he wield it in one hand while waving his wand with the other? > Carol: > I think it foreshadows Snape's relationship to the older and probably charming Prefect Lucius Malfoy, in some respects his role model. On Severus's side, this initial kind (or condescending) gesture may have made him feel at home, and he would feel gratitude and admiration for Lucius. Potioncat: This scene is immediately after the "Snivellus" scene. So it sets up a stark contrast between Severus's treatment by Gryffindor and his welcome by Slytherin. Harry has a similar experience. He's been helped by Hagrid and Ron's family, made to feel very welcomed by them. Then has the following confrontations with Draco who diparages both of Harry's friends. I've often wondered if their was a back story here. Did Lucius and Severus meet on the train? If JKR wrote all the back stories we ponder, she would still be writing the series! Whether or not there was a meeting before, we see Lucius being a good prefect. He is welcoming the new Slytherin. We don't see Hermione or Ron greeting the new Gryffindors when they are prefects. > > Carol: > Fair-weather friend that I am, I had some doubts about Snape. I > desperately *wanted* him to be good, but once in awhile I fell for the > red herrings, mostly in "the Sacking of Severus Snape." So "The > Prince's Tale" saved my sanity. Potioncat: But having doubts, while holding out hope, is better than willingly going along with everything your friend does. Think Lupin, who should have taken more notice of his friends' shortcomings. > > Carol, who would pick a shorter chapter next time if there were any > more to pick! Potioncat: Sigh. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Nov 14 14:32:46 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:32:46 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184871 > zanooda: > > Hard to tell, but I believe it's possible that Lily didn't know *for sure* Severus was using the word. Maybe she just heard from other people that he was, but it's not the same as to actually hear him using it. I suppose he was careful enough not to do it in front of her :-). > > It's even possible that Lily found out about it *after* the SWM. Many kids witnessed "the Mudblood incident", Maybe she wouldn't have believed it *before* Sev called her Mudblood, but she certainly would believe it *after*. Pippin: Ooooh, yes, it's important that Lily's friends are witnesses to SWM. We shouldn't overlook that; it changes the dynamic of the whole scene. Whatever she's up to, she's *not* pretending she doesn't know Severus, not unless those friends aren't supposed to be the ones who've heard her stick up for him before, and wondered why she even talks to him. I don't think she meant to be nasty. She's just being a normal, self-absorbed kid. The scene mirrors Lily and Snape's first meeting. This time, Lily's the one making a dramatic intervention, and she's expecting Snape to be impressed and gratified. But Sev hasn't read the script in Lily's head, so instead of hearing "Am I ever glad to see you!" she gets "I don't need help from a filthy little Mudblood like her." And Lily's friends are there to hear it all. So it's not just that Snape insulted her birth, he made her look like a fool. It's even worse if her friends had already tried to tell her that he'd been using the word behind her back. She would have denied it, just like she would later deny that one of her friends could be a spy. So imagine how she would feel when Snape proved her wrong -- not only insulted, but betrayed and humiliated as well. At her age, I think, that would be harder to forgive than the slur itself. The misguided or misunderstood effort to help is one of JKR's favorite themes. Remember how Ron reacted when Hermione showed him how to do the levitation spell? He called her a "nightmare." Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Nov 14 14:43:07 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:43:07 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184872 > Potioncat: > Merlin is on the chocolate frog cards, so the WW must have their own stories about him. But that makes me think, why would a wizard have a sword? Would he wield it in one hand while waving his wand with the other? Pippin: The sword is goblin-made -- they of course had no choice but to develop other means of warfare. I suppose Gryffindor used it mostly on creatures who were resistant to wizard magic. But it might also wrong-foot a wizard opponent to find himself facing a goblin sword instead of a wand. Pippin From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Fri Nov 14 16:47:45 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:47:45 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184873 > Magpie: > Going back on my own post here, but you're right Sirius does have > some responsibility for concealing the Animagi part. He knows that > Snape is being brave because he must think he'll at least be > protected by whatever protects MWPP. Whether he imagines the werewolf > is restrained or whatever, Sirius would pretty much assume that > they'd get in there and Snape would be vulnerable while he, Sirius, > could just turn into a dog. > > Alla: > > Ok, maybe you could explain to me how that changes anything. I mean, > if this information should change something , it should change > something for Snape's mindset, no? Obviously even when Sirius tells > Snape this information he does not have kind thoughts towards Snape, > at the very least he wants him to be scared by werewolf, yes? > > So, see above, I am just now sure how that changes anything for > Snape. I do not see how him knowing that Marauders hang with werewolf > and live suddenly translates into him thinking that this means there > will be less danger for him. They are all wizards, so obviously > Marauders came up with something, otherwise they would not have lived > to see the light of the day. Snape does not know what that something > is and goes there anyway. Magpie: I guess to me it's just that from Sirius' pov the animagi secret (and it does seem like it's supposed to be unusual for them to be animagi so not something Snape would suspect) is an important enough piece of information to make a difference. Sirius knows that the only thing keeping him safe is something that he is that Snape is not. If Sirius can't see any way Snape will deal with the situation >From Snape's pov he's still taking a risk--I don't put the responsibilty entirely back on Sirius due to the animagi thing. Snape knows he's going in to see a werewolf, he doesn't know how that's going to be safe. But I feel like if I were in Sirius' position I would consider the animagi secret to be something that put Snape in danger that I was not in, and not telling him about it would make me feel responsible. It's not, for me, that MWPP going into the willow is the same as telling Snape it was safe. Snape may have just told himself that any magic they could do he could do--which he would have no way of knowing. Or maybe he just thought that he was up to handling a werewolf. Or maybe he thought they were trying to scare him and Lupin would be chained up. But that's all speculation on his part. They're not reponsible for him psyching himself up to think that whatever was there he could handle. But if I were Sirius I'd feel my concealing the only way I knew to protect myself from the werewolf--something I knew Snape didn't have access too--made me responsible if something happened to him. It would feel like tricking him to me. -m From zgirnius at yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 17:29:49 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:29:49 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184874 > jkoney: > There was no reason for Snape to know what he was telling Harry. > Snape is a spy. You don't give a spy more information than he needs. > There is always the possibility that he is going to get caught. There > is also the possibility that Voldemort knows about him already and is > playing Snape. Zara: Nothing I said indicates I disagree. In fact, I agree with this entirely. As, in my view, did Severus Snape. > jkoney: > In either scenario it dangerous and foolish to give Snape more > information than he needs. Zara: Exactly my point. If Snape is, after Albus's death, to continue to protect Harry, Snape DOES "need to know". And at the moment of the argument in the Forest, Snape still believes this will remain his #1 mission after Albus is dead. I believe Snape is satisfied by what he learns in the office not because someone flatters him, but because it is explained to him that, in fact, he does not need to know after all. Because Harry has to die, and Snape no longer needs to prevent that. > jkoney: > Do you really think that Snape would except hollow praise? Or > straight forward praise of any kind? Do communicate with Snape you > have to talk to him in a way that he understands. Prodding, teasing, > and sarcasm are things he understands. Zara: Are you suggesting that any praise of Snape would be hollow? I don't recall him voicing any objections when Albus stated, "I am fortunate, extremely fortunate, to have you". Though he was (quite understandably) irritated to have had no advance warning he would be needed for emergency, high-level medical magical treatment, and to have been called in so late. That whole "need to know" thing again - if he is to treat ALbus effectively, being prepared in advance and/or called in earlier, would have permitted him to do his job better. From lealess at yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 17:53:05 2008 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:53:05 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184875 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "littleleahstill" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > > Alla: > > > > Huh? I do not understand how this analogy applies at all. Is Snape > > prostitute dressed provocatively or Lupin? No matter which one I do > > not get it. > > Leah: Snape. There have been a few posts that suggest because Snape > took the risk of going to the Willow, all blame for anything that > happened there, including a possible murder attempt by Sirius, falls > onto Snape. I am just pointing out that is not how the (Muggle)law > works. If someone puts themselves into a position of risk (ie > getting into a car with an unknown man or someone intervening in a > fight, or someone confronting an armed robber , if you want other > examples, > and as a result of that, they are killed deliberately, that is still > murder. Their recklessness does not get the murderer off the > hook. > I'm going to attempt an analogy for the Prank. Severus is a teenager who is addicted to computer games and is very good at them. He receives praise for his skill. Another group continually disrupt his games, however. Moreover, this group seems to have the blessing of the administrators of the games for their abuse. They sneak around and break rules, and gang up on the player 4-to-1. Games are his life, though. He notices that once a month, the group disappears into an online forbidden realm, and he wonders about it. He even suspects that, beyond getting into mischief, one of the gang, the one with the username "harmlessme," might be a dangerous child predator. He's heard rumours about near-misses in local chatrooms. To make matters worse, his best friend not only shares space with the predator, but believes he is harmless. So, because our nerdy kid is addicted to gaming knowledge, because he's worried about his friend, because he's tired of being jeered off online forums or worse, sabotaged, because he thinks the administrators are incompetent, the gamer investigates the group's activities on his own. If he can find evidence of misuse of the system to protect and even set loose a child predator, he can go to a higher authority, convince his friend that harmlessme is dangerous, get the bullies off his back, and maybe pick up a few tips on gaming strategies and how to deal with predators. So, when one of the gang tells where the portal to the forbidden realm is and how to get into it, how can he resist? Why should he resist? He sees the gang members as just some other gamers, like him, kids playing games. He sees they've somehow managed to resist the allure of an online predator, if he's even right about that -- he's not sure. He figures he can face a predator, too. How hard can it be? He doesn't know that the group has devised special, and illegal, animal personas that allow them to enter the forbidden realm and be something a child predator would not be interested in. (Even the administrator doesn't know this.) So our gamer suspects that he might find a predator, but he thinks it is something he can handle. Maybe predators are not as dangerous as adults have told him. Our hero ;-) enters the game room following the brief instructions he received on how to get in. What he finds is a monster predator unleashed in the room, infected with virulent code, bearing down on him, making all the gaming strategies our hero has learned meaningless. Fortunately, another member of the gang comes to his rescue, even foregoing his protective animal character to do so, thus potentially exposing himself to abuse or the virulent code at worst, or to exposure as an illegal game player at best. But no! The rescuer gets to be almost an administrator of the games because of his action. He continues to bully the gamer in online forums. He even gets the admiration of the gamer's best friend. Our hero, meanwhile, gets told if he talks about being enticed into a dangerous situation or about the school's protection of a child predator, he's out of the games. Our hero is left with the impression that the gang set him up to face a monster and, moreover, the administrators approved of their action. All the games of which they are a part are corrupt, and the basis of those games, a lie. So, Sirius is someone who gave another low-impulse-control teen information on how to get into a game room knowing that an extremely dangerous child predator was there, without telling him how to protect himself. If the predator had harmed or infected the teen, wouldn't Sirius be greatly to blame? If someone sent your kid into a chat room, or a church choir or locker room, knowing a predator was there, without telling him how to protect himself, how would you feel about it? lealess From zgirnius at yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 17:58:27 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:58:27 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184876 > Carol: > I was also hoping that > people would actually reread the paragraph and note *Harry's* > perspective. We don't get a rerun of the memory in part because he's > stationed himself as far as possible from James and his friends; he > doesn't want a rerun of that side of James's personality. I think he's > identifying with or at least compassionating with Severus here, and he > understands that the "unforgiveable word" is the result of > "humiliation and fury"--a mistake that can't be undone. Zara: This passage includes the only time in seven books that the narrator uses the name "Severus" in speaking of Snape: "But Harry kept his distance this tinme Just mentioning it because I think it supports your interpretation. In that one scene James, Sirius, Severus, and the other players are all referred to by first name, without any distinction base don whose side Harry is on. > Carol: > Fair-weather friend that I am, I had some doubts about Snape. I > desperately *wanted* him to be good, but once in awhile I fell for the > red herrings, mostly in "the Sacking of Severus Snape." Zara: I guess it is because I was accepting of the Snape/Lily explanation, that I had no doubts at all once a certain pretty Patronus showed her face. (Though I was left to wonder about the injury to George until "The Prince's Tale" provided the explanation). Perhaps because I had already done my victory dance chapters ago, I found this chapter to be unremittingly bleak. It contained, in broad outline, what I had come to believe after reading HBP, but the way it was all written out and described I found unexpectedly moving. I had to take a longish break to recover from the "Always" scene before continuing, and did not reread my copy of DH for quite a long time, perhaps a couple of months. (I had planned an immediate reread...because I knew I would miss some good stuff in my 1 am to 7 am first reading of it.) Anyway, this chapter and Snape's story are my two favorite things about the series. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 19:53:10 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 19:53:10 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184878 Leah: So, Sirius is someone who gave another low-impulse-control teen information on how to get into a game room knowing that an extremely dangerous child predator was there, without telling him how to protect himself. If the predator had harmed or infected the teen, wouldn't Sirius be greatly to blame? If someone sent your kid into a chat room, or a church choir or locker room, knowing a predator was there, without telling him how to protect himself, how would you feel about it? Alla: Except to me this low-impulse-control teen was not being **sent** there IMO, he went there and no, seeing a predator there was not a surprise for him, it was something that IMO he knew or suspected that it was there. I mean, the **being sent** part is the main reason why the analogy does not stand for me. And I mean, any RL analogy even phrased differently would not probably stand for me because of the predators like this do not exist in RW ( but that is an aside and not the main reason). So if I were to answer, yeah, I would think that in the set up where nobody sent that teen there, but he chose to go, he is the one to blame first and foremost, in the fictional world. Of course there is a possibility that Muggle law would assign some responsibility to the teen who gave the information, however to me ( lawyer who does not do criminal law, but lawyer nevertheless) it is not a guarantee at all, too many factors to consider. Magpie: It's not, for me, that MWPP going into the willow is the same as telling Snape it was safe. Snape may have just told himself that any magic they could do he could do--which he would have no way of knowing. Or maybe he just thought that he was up to handling a werewolf. Or maybe he thought they were trying to scare him and Lupin would be chained up. But that's all speculation on his part. They're not responsible for him psyching himself up to think that whatever was there he could handle. But if I were Sirius I'd feel my concealing the only way I knew to protect myself from the werewolf--something I knew Snape didn't have access too--made me responsible if something happened to him. It would feel like tricking him to me. Alla: Oh Magpie thank you so much for clarifying! I think I understand now. I am happy that you do not seem to take away Snape's responsibility for making a choice to go there, I was under impression that Sirius concealing that they are Animagi somehow makes him completely to blame for Snape deciding to go. So basically you are saying that it should feel trickery from Sirius POV, right? The funny thing to me that if it feels as trickery from Sirius POV it does not translate into being an action of trickery for me. Read on and tell me if I am being confusing. See, another funny thing to me that if I think about Sirius mindset in abstract sort of way after book 7 it does not necessarily look better for him. I mean I was expecting to hear something that Sirius was thinking when he decided to do it. I mean, I still believe that he wanted to scare Snape badly, but hey for all I know and for all I care, in abstract sort of way he may have wanted Snape to be eaten by Remus as tasty snack. I cannot **disprove** after book 7 that he did not want Snape to be killed. (Oh boy do I expect to be reminded of it for months to come lol). However, and I want to make my argument as clear as I can, I cannot disprove that Sirius **mindset** was to kill Snape in the most abstract sort of way only. I believe that what Sirius actually **did** cannot hold up as any plotting to scare Snape, kill Snape or do anything to Snape. Sirius did not tell him that they were animagi, of course he did not. However, I do not believe for a second that if he would have told him that they were animagi that Snape would not want to go there and confront that werewolf that he knew or suspected was there. That is why in my mind him not telling does not qualify as the factor that would have stopped Snape from going. It as you so eloquently said in the post you went back on - I totally agree that Sirius gave Snape the robes to hang himself, however I believe that Snape and only Snape is the one who tight the knot and hang himself on them, or would have been had it not been for James. By the way, silly question (am apologizing for memory loss), have we ever learned who told James what happened? JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 20:07:03 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:07:03 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184879 > Magpie: > > That's the distinction I would make as well after DH. Snape comes out > looking all the more unreasonable being angry about it all those > years later. > Leah: Well, I dont' make that particular distinction. However, Snape is angry not just because he thinks Sirius got away with murder, but because of what he (and the rest of the cast) think Sirius did afterwards. He has clearly told Dumbledore that he believes Sirius tried to murder him at 16, ("my memory is as good as ever, Severus") but at that time Dumbledore chose not to believe him, or not to punish Sirius, or whatever happened. Alla: And my point is (which I guess in essense same as Magpie's) is that Snape needs to be angry with himself first and foremost. I also think that whatever Sirius had in mind (even if it was attempted murder, which I do not believe it was in action but as I said upthread I certainly cannot disprove whether or not he had murderous intent), really does not translate into something that Snape can in good faith call attempted murder. I used to believe for the longest time that when Snape makes this remark to Dumbledore he believes in good faith (regardless of Sirius real intent) that Sirius wanted to kill him and believe it or not, I also used to feel bad for him in that instance. Honest to goodness I did, Snape hater I am. I usually cut tremendous slack to the characters who were being wronged for real and I am sympathetic to their grudges. Erlein from Tigana is a great example. So even with Snape, in that instance I was feeling bad for him in a way. Not for what really happened, because I was reserving my judgment on that, but that he thought he was being set up to be killed. I do not believe it anymore. I think Snape was lying to Dumbledore, knowing that attempted murder did not happen on that night, but instead Snape went out looking to be murdered or at the very least disregarding the danger. JMO, Alla From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Fri Nov 14 20:34:49 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:34:49 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184880 > Alla: > However, and I want to make my argument as clear as I can, I cannot > disprove that Sirius **mindset** was to kill Snape in the most > abstract sort of way only. I believe that what Sirius actually > **did** cannot hold up as any plotting to scare Snape, kill Snape or > do anything to Snape. > > Sirius did not tell him that they were animagi, of course he did not. > However, I do not believe for a second that if he would have told him > that they were animagi that Snape would not want to go there and > confront that werewolf that he knew or suspected was there. That is > why in my mind him not telling does not qualify as the factor that > would have stopped Snape from going. Magpie: Yes, I think one could make a case for Snape knowing what he was getting into and doing it, if all he knew was that there was a werewolf there. That he didn't know the Marauders were animagi is just one more thing he didn't know--I mean, that's the point of how foolish and reckless he was being. The only thing he thinks he does know is that there's a dangerous creature in there. If someone asked him how he expected to survive and he said "The same way MWPP did!" he still wouldn't be able to say exactly what method that was. >From Sirius' pov it's more to me not that Sirius is actively tricking Snape or enticing him by witholding the information, but just that in a situation like that he knows that Snape is being an idiot. Maybe Snape should also know that he's being an idiot, but he's being an idiot at the time so isn't thinking about that.:-) Where as Sirius has a clearer view of the danger because he's been through the tunnel already. So that's why if I were Sirius I'd feel like I had some responsibility to try to prevent him from getting himself hurt or killed. It's not my fault that he's determined to do it, but he's going to get killed so I'd feel like I should stop him. Of course, Snape is not the only adolescent here. I agree with your views on Sirius too, I think, in that I don't think he was literally planning a murder. I think he did just in an abstract way think Snape would be scared and run away. All the Marauders had already been playing fast and loose with the werewolf danger already and Sirius may have just not felt the danger any more because he was so used to it. But that more puts Sirius on the same level of Snape when it comes to not thinking things through than it makes Sirius the more culpable. He only seems more at fault because Snape was gambling with his own life and Sirius with someone else's. Sirius' irresponsibility is still fairly passive, especially compared to Snape. It still reads to me like years later Snape is projecting his own feelings of shame and embarassment on Sirius, though. And James as well. When I picture how it all went down now--and as you know I can't prove this is how it happened at all--but it seems like Snape was all puffed up with righteous indignation and had visions of discrediting the Marauders once and for all and proving his theories true. Then he got into the tunnel and had a moment of real fear when he saw he was facing a werewolf, followed by James of all people dragging him to safety. I think that moment of pants-wetting fear, perhaps followed by clinging to James...that might be a truly humiliating memory for him. (Maybe that was one of the ones in the Pensieve along with the one we saw in SWM.) I feel like those feelings of shame and anger at himself for being so overcome got translated into anger at being tricked--the whole thing was a set up to get him to look foolish. And if he then further converts it in his head to attempted murder he's got even more dignified--he wasn't scared or helpless or foolish, it's just that Sirius had a plan to kill him that he survived. In that version he avoids many of the bad feelings about himself at the time imo. Alla:> > By the way, silly question (am apologizing for memory loss), have we > ever learned who told James what happened? Magpie: I don't think we ever did that I know. We know that James is the one who saved Snape and I think there's a hint somewhere that James did find out that Snape was on his way in thanks to Sirius, but I don't think we ever really know how things went down. -m From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Nov 14 22:22:24 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 22:22:24 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184881 > Magpie: > From Sirius' pov it's more to me not that Sirius is actively tricking Snape or enticing him by witholding the information, but just that in a situation like that he knows that Snape is being an idiot. Pippin: But Sirius does expect Snape to use the information. He has more than a vague idea that something bad (or funny, from Sirius' pov) might happen -- that's the point of the joke. He knows that the willow is what we Muggles call an "attractive nuisance" -- it's the sort of thing that teenagers are going to be idiots about. As Lupin says, Sirius thought it would be "amusing" to tell Snape how to get into the willow. There would be no amusement involved if Sirius didn't expect Snape to use the information. Officially, Snape had only been warned about the dangers of the willow itself -- and Sirius told him how to get past it. No authority had warned Snape that he was in danger of meeting a full grown werewolf, unrestrained or, as Dumbledore might put it, a sudden and painful death. Snape had only his own judgment about the likelihood of meeting something he couldn't handle in the tunnel, and Sirius expected and hoped that it wouldn't be enough to discourage him. Of course Sirius was a teen and didn't think it through, and I am not saying he should have been expelled or sent to Azkaban. But he was old enough, IMO, to recognize that we have, as human beings, a moral responsibility not to tempt others. That Snape was already tempted is beside the point, IMO. For me, what has changed about the Prank after the Prince's Tale is that now we know Snape wasn't just trying to get the Marauders in trouble or get them off his back. He was trying to protect Lily. That is a nobler motive than he had before. It seems to me if we are going to take a charitable view of Sirius, and say that he was in part trying to protect his friends, we might be charitable towards Snape also. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 22:35:00 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 22:35:00 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184882 > Pippin: > Officially, Snape had only been warned about the dangers of the willow > itself -- and Sirius told him how to get past it. No authority had > warned Snape that he was in danger of meeting a full grown werewolf, > unrestrained or, as Dumbledore might put it, a sudden and painful > death. Snape had only his own judgment about the likelihood of meeting > something he couldn't handle in the tunnel, and Sirius expected and > hoped that it wouldn't be enough to discourage him. Alla: Eh, well of course if one is not convinced that Snape figured out whom he will be meeting there, of course then Sirius' part of blame grows significantly. I personally have no doubt that Snape figured it out and it really does not matter to me that he figured it out by himself or from officials. Pippin: > Of course Sirius was a teen and didn't think it through, and I am not > saying he should have been expelled or sent to Azkaban. But he was old > enough, IMO, to recognize that we have, as human beings, a moral > responsibility not to tempt others. > > That Snape was already tempted is beside the point, IMO. Alla: Sirius had moral responsibility not to tempt Snape, but the fact that Snape already wanted to go there is **beside the point**? I do not know how to respond to it. Pippin: It seems to me if we are going > to take a charitable view of Sirius, and say that he was in part > trying to protect his friends, we might be charitable towards Snape also. Alla: Huh? Could you please just point out to me where I am taking charitable view towards Sirius and saying that he was in part protecting his friends? In fact I seemed to repeat several times that he in my view was doing the exact opposite to protecting his friend, basically betraying him. I also said that after book 7 I cannot disprove in theory that Sirius wanted to kill Snape, even though I do not believe it and I do not think that his actions transform into it. What I **am** doing it seems to me is taking much harsher view towards Snape and not absolving him of blame, because he poor dear was tricked or entrapped, or being sent there. That I just cannot see no matter how hard I look. Snape hanged himself as far as I am concerned. He had higher than normal mental capacities, he as far as I am concerned knew or suspected that there is a werewolf there, he was a self proclaimed DADA genuis, he read that lovely werewolf essay. And he went there anyways. Nope, in my opinion all of that is not besides the point at all. JMO, Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Nov 14 23:16:36 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:16:36 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184883 > Alla: > > Eh, well of course if one is not convinced that Snape figured out > whom he will be meeting there, of course then Sirius' part of blame > grows significantly. I personally have no doubt that Snape figured it out and it really does not matter to me that he figured it out by > himself or from officials. Pippin: It makes a difference to me, because Snape was not disregarding an adult's authority, he was only disregarding his own. Snape is not responsible for knowing that there is a werewolf under the willow, even if he's figured it out. > Alla: > > Sirius had moral responsibility not to tempt Snape, but the fact that Snape already wanted to go there is **beside the point**? I do not know how to respond to it. Pippin: I didn't think it was unclear, but let me give a different example. Suppose I give a teenage kid the key to a liquor cabinet and access to a car, hoping that he will get drunk and have an accident. It would be no excuse to say that I didn't make him do it. That the kid wanted to get into the liquor cabinet already and should have known better than to drink and drive does not make me less culpable, IMO. > Alla: > > Huh? Could you please just point out to me where I am taking > charitable view towards Sirius and saying that he was in part > protecting his friends? Pippin: Didn't you say that Sirius didn't have to let his friends get caught? Alla: > > Snape hanged himself as far as I am concerned. He had higher than > normal mental capacities, he as far as I am concerned knew or > suspected that there is a werewolf there, he was a self proclaimed > DADA genuis, he read that lovely werewolf essay. And he went there > anyways. > Pippin: He's still only sixteen or so. Just because, intellectually, he knows how dangerous werewolves are doesn't mean that he is going to be appropriately cautious. It's not the nature of a sixteen year old to be appropriately cautious. Sirius, of all people, knew that very well. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 23:30:50 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 23:30:50 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184884 > Pippin: > It makes a difference to me, because Snape was not disregarding an > adult's authority, he was only disregarding his own. Snape is not > responsible for knowing that there is a werewolf under the willow, > even if he's figured it out. Alla: How did we switch the conversation from whether Snape was entrapped, tricked, being sent to the Shack to whether Snape is responsible to disregarding the authority? Very confused. However, Snape was warned about danger and not going there, albeit in general terms, he still went, did he not? But sure, he was not told that there is a werewolf there, I agree with you on that and he was not disregarding any warnings from authority that there is werewolf there, since there were no such warnings. > > Alla: > > > > Sirius had moral responsibility not to tempt Snape, but the fact > that Snape already wanted to go there is **beside the point**? I do > not know how to respond to it. > > Pippin: That the kid wanted to > get into the liquor cabinet already and should have known better than > to drink and drive does not make me less culpable, IMO. Alla: If you were the same age as that kid, IMO it does. > > > > Alla: > > > > Huh? Could you please just point out to me where I am taking > > charitable view towards Sirius and saying that he was in part > > protecting his friends? > > Pippin: > Didn't you say that Sirius didn't have to let his friends get caught? Alla: Not that I remember, no. > Alla: > > > > Snape hanged himself as far as I am concerned. He had higher than > > normal mental capacities, he as far as I am concerned knew or > > suspected that there is a werewolf there, he was a self proclaimed > > DADA genuis, he read that lovely werewolf essay. And he went there > > anyways. > > > > Pippin: > He's still only sixteen or so. Just because, intellectually, he knows > how dangerous werewolves are doesn't mean that he is going to be > appropriately cautious. It's not the nature of a sixteen year old to > be appropriately cautious. Sirius, of all people, knew that very well. Alla: Hm. So Snape is to be held as the person with diminished mental capacities, but Sirius is to be held as the person who knows full well that other teenager will not be appropriately cautious? Sorry, I disagree. Alla, counts to five and dissappears again. Boy, second day in a row I am posting five. It looks like Prank will always be one of the hottest topics ever for us :) From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 15 02:36:47 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 02:36:47 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184885 > Magpie: > Going back on my own post here, but you're right Sirius does have > some responsibility for concealing the Animagi part. He knows that > Snape is being brave because he must think he'll at least be > protected by whatever protects MWPP. Whether he imagines the werewolf > is restrained or whatever, Sirius would pretty much assume that > they'd get in there and Snape would be vulnerable while he, Sirius, > could just turn into a dog. > > Alla: > > Ok, maybe you could explain to me how that changes anything. I mean, > if this information should change something , it should change > something for Snape's mindset, no? Obviously even when Sirius tells > Snape this information he does not have kind thoughts towards Snape, > at the very least he wants him to be scared by werewolf, yes? > > So, see above, I am just now sure how that changes anything for > Snape. I do not see how him knowing that Marauders hang with werewolf > and live suddenly translates into him thinking that this means there > will be less danger for him. They are all wizards, so obviously > Marauders came up with something, otherwise they would not have lived > to see the light of the day. Snape does not know what that something > is and goes there anyway. Montavilla47: What I hear you saying, Alla, is that Snape should have assumed that because the Marauders were able to be in Lupin's presence during his werewolf time, that they could do so because they had some superior magic that he did not. In which case, it's stupid for him to have gone into the tunnel because.. hey... he *doesn't* have the magic! What I hear Carol and Magpie and Leah saying is that they think Snape assumed that the "magic" (or other protection) was independent of the Marauders. In other words, he *didn't* assume that they had superior magic to his. He *assumed* that there was something that protected them. The most obvious thing that comes to my mind is that he assumed that Lupin was either chained down there in the tunnel, or kept in a cage. Since we don't know what Snape actually thought, I think we're going to end up splitting along the lines of whether we think Snape really *did* deserve what he got or not. But I don't see how Sirius gets off without ill-intent towards Snape here. Yes, he's giving Snape the key to a room with a dangerous thing in it that Snape is foolish to enter. But, if Sirius didn't think Snape was going to be very surprised and frightened by what he encountered, then there was little point to giving him the key in the first place. Unless Sirius let it slip in the heat of an argument and the idea of a "Prank" was his way of covering up his stupidity in giving away the secret. Which is dumb, but not really malicious, and I do find that perfectly in character for Sirius. On the whole, I prefer to lump everyone's actions under the general heading of "dumb mistakes." Because we see characters making dumb mistakes thoroughout the series, in the present as well as the past. Those dumb mistakes often have tragic consequences, but it seems more charitable to assume that everyone is more stupid than evil. Montavilla47 From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 15 04:24:22 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 04:24:22 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184886 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > It jarred me to see Muggles on Platform 9 3/4; we've never seen > Hermione's parents there; they wait for her outside the platform > along with the Muggle Dursleys. But so do the Weasleys - Molly (once with Arthur) always waits for the kids outside the barrier. As a matter of fact, no parents, wizard or muggle, are ever shown meeting their kids on the platform nine and three quarters - only seeing them off. But, Carol, if you find it unbelievable that Muggles can pass through the barrier, here is another idea: someone from the school Side-Apparates them directly to the platform. How does it work for you :-)? zanooda, who finds it believable either way ... From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Nov 15 13:43:57 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 13:43:57 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184887 > Alla: > > > > Snape hanged himself as far as I am concerned. He had higher than > > normal mental capacities, he as far as I am concerned knew or > > suspected that there is a werewolf there, he was a self proclaimed > > DADA genuis, he read that lovely werewolf essay. And he went there > > anyways. > > > > Pippin: > He's still only sixteen or so. Just because, intellectually, he knows > how dangerous werewolves are doesn't mean that he is going to be > appropriately cautious. It's not the nature of a sixteen year old to > be appropriately cautious. Sirius, of all people, knew that very well. Potioncat: I never expected The Prank to resume such a heated tennis match! I've read the thread rather quickly. It sounds like a collection of parents in the Headmaster's office. Each is trying to convince the HM that his/her son is innocent, or at least less guilty than the other boy. I've included the above exchange only because it shows two sides and it is the most recent post. So I'd like to offer a game, and a chance to take a different look at the events. Imagine that you are the Headmaster/Headmistress of Hogwarts. Not that you are DD, but "you" are the Head. It's late at night, or very early morning. You are facing several 15/16 year old boys who have survived a terrible fright. What would you do? Try to forget the background motivations you currently have for Sirius and Severus. Imagine that you know only what a HM in this situation would know. Explain what you know. Which boys are in your office? Tell us what you think the boys said. What do you feel for or about the boys? Have you called in anyone else? Why are you taking the action you decide upon? From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 15 15:17:18 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 15:17:18 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184888 > Potioncat: > Imagine that you are the Headmaster/Headmistress of > Hogwarts. Not that you are DD, but "you" are the Head. It's late at > night, or very early morning. You are facing several 15/16 year old > boys who have survived a terrible fright. What would you do? > > Try to forget the background motivations you currently have for Sirius > and Severus. Imagine that you know only what a HM in this situation > would know. > > Explain what you know. Which boys are in your office? Tell us what you > think the boys said. What do you feel for or about the boys? Have you > called in anyone else? Why are you taking the action you decide upon? Montavilla47: My number one priority would be: Is Lupin still restrained or is he currently running around loose? Because if he's loose, something needs to be done lest he bite someone. Second priority: Calming draughts all round and quick conferences with the heads of Gryffindor and Slytherin. Find out what's behind this conflict. Third priority: The Lupin project needs to be re-thought. Obviously the scheme to keep him restrained during the full moon isn't working. So far, Operation Lupin has cost one student an eye and nearly caused another to be eaten or made into a werewolf. A new plan needs to be developed. Depending on what new plan is developed (since the new plan may or may *not* require secrecy), it may be necessary to impose silence on the boys involved, for Lupin's sake. It should be easy to get silence from the boys who were already in on the secret, since he's their well-liked Housemate. The other boy might be more trouble, but may understand the need for secrecy if he's involved in any new plan and assured that the werewolf isn't going to get out again. He may also require some individual therapy in order to get over the trauma of the incident. It might be a good idea to have him work with Madam Pomfrey on the project for a few months so that he understands what precautions are being taken, and gets to know Lupin better as a person--instead of only thinking of him as a werewolf. The feud between the boys needs to end--immediately. Stern warnngs to all concerning any further hostile words or action towards the other side. *Any* further hostility will result in expulsion. As for this incident, I would probably conclude that there was rule-breaking and bad behavior on both sides, but the main problem is the hostility between four boys and one (with a special hostility between the boy who went looking for the werewolf and the boy who told him how to find it.) I think I would assign those two to some joint detentions--and make the detentions so unpleasant that they can't help but bond over it. I wouldn't consider any of those involved for the position of Head Boy--not unless I saw some very sincere contrition on their parts during sixth year. Montavilla47 From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Sat Nov 15 15:35:40 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 15:35:40 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184889 > > Potioncat: > > Imagine that you are the Headmaster/Headmistress of > > Hogwarts. Not that you are DD, but "you" are the Head. It's late at > > night, or very early morning. You are facing several 15/16 year old > > boys who have survived a terrible fright. What would you do? > > > > Try to forget the background motivations you currently have for Sirius > > and Severus. Imagine that you know only what a HM in this situation > > would know. > > > > Explain what you know. Which boys are in your office? Tell us what you > > think the boys said. What do you feel for or about the boys? Have you > > called in anyone else? Why are you taking the action you decide upon? Magpie: This is a different situation, though, because as a reader I do know more than DD did--while at the same time I don't know exactly what DD did know. He didn't know the Marauders were going out with Lupin and didn't know they were Animagi. If all he knew was that Sirius told Snape how to get in the willow...well, he's just dealing on a totally different level. Does he assume all the boys even know Lupin is a werewolf? > Magpie: > From Sirius' pov it's more to me not that Sirius is actively tricking Snape or enticing him by witholding the information, but just that in a situation like that he knows that Snape is being an idiot. Pippin: But Sirius does expect Snape to use the information. He has more than a vague idea that something bad (or funny, from Sirius' pov) might happen -- that's the point of the joke. He knows that the willow is what we Muggles call an "attractive nuisance" -- it's the sort of thing that teenagers are going to be idiots about. As Lupin says, Sirius thought it would be "amusing" to tell Snape how to get into the willow. There would be no amusement involved if Sirius didn't expect Snape to use the information. Magpie: Of course he expects him to use it. My point was exactly that. Sirius knows that Snape is planning on doing something dangerous and as a fellow human being that gives him some responsibility to at the very least not help him to do this dangerous thing. However that's not "tricking" Snape if Snape is going into the willow expecting to find Lupin the werewolf inside. As I said I do hold Sirius responsible for bad actions here. Just not Snape's bad actions. They're both two teenagers doing reckless things. This is very different than the way Snape made it seem to me when he first told the story. Now it's more like Snape blaming Sirius for helping him do something stupid without acknowledging that the desire to do this stupid thing was also Snape's. The fact that Snape had not been officially told there was a werewolf is besides the point for me once Lily seemed to indicate that Snape expected to find a werewolf there. I don't think I'm taking a charitable view towards Sirius here, just describing what I see everyone doing. Sirius didn't seem to do much tempting of Snape. His crime was enabling Snape. Both of them should have known better. Years later Snape made it sound like something else to me. -m From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 15 17:41:42 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 17:41:42 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184890 > Magpie: > As I said I do hold Sirius > responsible for bad actions here. Just not Snape's bad actions. > They're both two teenagers doing reckless things. This is very > different than the way Snape made it seem to me when he first told > the story. Now it's more like Snape blaming Sirius for helping him do > something stupid without acknowledging that the desire to do this > stupid thing was also Snape's. > > The fact that Snape had not been officially told there was a werewolf > is besides the point for me once Lily seemed to indicate that Snape > expected to find a werewolf there. > > I don't think I'm taking a charitable view towards Sirius here, just > describing what I see everyone doing. Sirius didn't seem to do much > tempting of Snape. His crime was enabling Snape. Both of them should > have known better. Years later Snape made it sound like something > else to me. Montavilla47: It's hard for me to remember back to whether I ever found Snape's story entirely convincing. I always figured that Snape was putting his own spin on things and that Lupin's story was the most objective. Although, ironically, he's the one who would know *least* what was going on at the crucial moments--but he's trying not to make Sirius or Snape look any particular way when he tells the story. I never thought that Snape was entirely innocent or that he went into the tunnel without a suspicion that Lupin was a werewolf. The question in my mind has always been--did he think he could handle the werewolf because of hubris, or did he think that Lupin was under further restraint? Or was he too distraught (for whatever reason) to think? Or... in an extreme Snupin sense, did he think the werewolf might be more... er... cuddly? I hear you about Sirius. It doesn't make him any less foolhardy, rash or responsible. And I agree with Alla that he was acting worse towards Lupin than towards Snape. Because, by all accounts, Lupin wasn't in on anything and was completely blindsided. And, in all of this, Snape and Lupin were in the most danger. Snape was in danger of being killed, wounded, or being made into a werewolf. Lupin was in danger of being exposed, expelled, and possibly executed. But I think Leah makes an important point--when Snape goes ballastic, it isn't just because of this old schoolboy "prank." It's because he suspected long ago that there was a conspiracy (when there really wasn't) and he's seeing what looks like proof of a present conspiracy (and again, there isn't one going on, it just looks like one) with far worse consequences. >From Snape's POV, the schoolboy Prank nearly got him killed (never mind that he was responsible for his own actions). The subsequent Prophecy debacle got Lily killed (never mind that Snape was greatly responsible for that--it was Sirius who *knowingly* and *maliciously* betrayed Lily. And now, here is Sirius again, tricking the Hope of the Wizarding World (who isn't the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree) to who knows what madness! I think one of the reasons this always becomes such a "tennis match" for readers is that a lot of us fly to the edges of the argument, assuming bad intentions from either Sirius or Snape--which somehow makes the one with the bad intentions wrong. But that doesn't make the other one right. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Nov 15 22:39:09 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 22:39:09 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184891 > Montavilla47: > It's hard for me to remember back to whether I ever found Snape's > story entirely convincing. I always figured that Snape was putting his > own spin on things and that Lupin's story was the most objective. Potioncat: Do you remember where we find Snape's story? Book and chapter? There's conversation about James's real motive for saving his life that Snape has with Harry; and there's the conversation with DD in PoA when the kids are sleeping in the Great Hall. Montavilla47 > I never thought that Snape was entirely innocent or that he went > into the tunnel without a suspicion that Lupin was a werewolf. The > question in my mind has always been--did he think he could > handle the werewolf because of hubris, or did he think that Lupin > was under further restraint? Or was he too distraught (for whatever > reason) to think? Or... in an extreme Snupin sense, did he think > the werewolf might be more... er... cuddly? Potioncat: Odd isn't it, years later, the only restraint he's using on pre-wolf Lupin is magic rope. Snupin...too funny. I haven't seen that combined form in a while. Montavilla47 > I think one of the reasons this always becomes such a "tennis match" > for readers is that a lot of us fly to the edges of the argument, > assuming bad intentions from either Sirius or Snape--which somehow > makes the one with the bad intentions wrong. But that doesn't > make the other one right. Potioncat: Absolutely! And sort of what I was getting at with this game. I started my own version and found out it wasn't so easy or very revealing. And, afterall, my bias did come out. still working on it, not sure if I'll post. > From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Nov 16 01:00:26 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 01:00:26 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184892 > Montavilla47 > > I think one of the reasons this always becomes such a "tennis match" > > for readers is that a lot of us fly to the edges of the argument, > > assuming bad intentions from either Sirius or Snape--which somehow > > makes the one with the bad intentions wrong. But that doesn't > > make the other one right. > > Potioncat: > Absolutely! And sort of what I was getting at with this game. I > started my own version and found out it wasn't so easy or very > revealing. And, afterall, my bias did come out. still working on it, not sure if I'll post. > > Pippin: Yes. The first thing that became obvious to me was that reporting a prank, even a vicious one, is Not Done, but attempted murder is another matter. That doesn't mean Snape couldn't seriously believe that MPP had conspired to kill him, but he had to claim that if he was going to say anything against them at all, so he had a built-in bias towards believing the worst. Snape's account is in PoA, ch 14: "your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn't got cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine. Had their joke succeeded, he would have been expelled from Hogwarts." I think it stands that Snape would have been killed if James hadn't saved him. Werewolves just want to bite, but if the victim can't get away, they don't stop biting, judging by Lupin's own account of biting and scratching himself, and the condition of the furnishings in the Shrieking Shack. Dumbledore also confirms that James saved Snape's life. I also think it's true that Sirius would have been expelled if the joke had succeeded. But it's probably not true that James was deeply worried about that. Snape doesn't mention that he himself was breaking school rules or that he was hoping to get the Marauders in trouble. OTOH, he wouldn't have been able to get into the willow if Sirius hadn't helped him. And there is no canon at all that he wanted to fight the werewolf or kill it. What he wanted to know, according to Lupin's account in PoA ch 18, was where Lupin went every month. I don't think that is changed by the info in DH, where we learn that he suspected why it was that Lupin had to go somewhere, and that he wanted to find out not only because he wanted to get something on the Marauders but because he was concerned about Lily. One problem I have as hypothetical headmistress is that nobody is going to tell me anything. The other is that I don't have a lot of leverage to use against spoiled, wealthy James and independently wealthy Sirius -- they're probably no more worried about being expelled than Fred and George were. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 01:23:59 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 01:23:59 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184893 > Potioncat: > So I'd like to offer a game, and a chance to take a different look at > the events. Imagine that you are the Headmaster/Headmistress of > Hogwarts. Not that you are DD, but "you" are the Head. It's late at > night, or very early morning. You are facing several 15/16 year old > boys who have survived a terrible fright. What would you do? > > Try to forget the background motivations you currently have for Sirius > and Severus. Imagine that you know only what a HM in this situation > would know. > > Explain what you know. Which boys are in your office? Tell us what you > think the boys said. What do you feel for or about the boys? Have you > called in anyone else? Why are you taking the action you decide upon? > Alla: So the hardest part of your game for me is to forget (as Magpie mentioned) that as a reader I know more than Headmaster will know and well, also to figure out what exactly Headmaster knows. It is a given that I as Headmaster know no more and no less than Dumbledore does, yes? Okay, then let me try at least sketch it. So Snape, Sirius and James are in my office. I think Lupin is in the Infirmary, sort of makes sense to me that stress of that night would take an extra toll on him even as werewolf. I am asking them what happened. I would imagine that James and Sirius are definitely telling me that Snape discovered Remus's secret and went there and James went after him and saved him. But see, here I am already running into problems. So here is my problem number one. I have no idea if Peter is in my office. I mean, if he is, that is only because he came to inform Gryffindor Head or myself of what just happened, maybe James asked him to do so. However, what if Peter was absent that whole night? Then he would have no reason to be in my office and why would he be absent? I do not know that they are animagi, so obviously they are not telling me, or does Snape see James before he transforms and tries to talk about shape of the Stag he noticed? Now, interesting thing to me is does Sirius tell me that he told Snape how to open the Shack? I always got the impression that Dumbledore knew about it, so I should know too. Except, well, why would Sirius want to report his own wrongdoing? I mean, I know how Dumbledore may have learned that - legilimence him of course, but what if he did not? Is Sirius telling that or not? That's my other problem. Snape is of course telling me that they came up with the plan to kill him and it almost succeeded. Sirius told him how to open the Shack and he found werewolf here. And of course I think that Snape is asking me did I know and what did werewolf do here. What do I feel about the boys? I feel that they are all idiots and deserve a good smack and many many detentions to serve **together**. Do I believe them? Oy wey, I know about them being enemies, but whether I believe them depends on how much they are actually spelling out for me. Oh HECK, wait a second. If I am Legilimens, how is it that I did not see that boys are animagi????? Somebody help, please. Whom else would I call? Madame Pomphrey of course, I would want to know if she noticed boys wandering around the Shack at any time before Prank. Lovely game Potioncat, but so hard. I will be back. Alla From danjerri at madisoncounty.net Sun Nov 16 02:57:29 2008 From: danjerri at madisoncounty.net (Jerri&Dan Chase) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:57:29 -0600 Subject: Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: <1226750804.1553.33606.m46@yahoogroups.com> References: <1226750804.1553.33606.m46@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <6AF660C2F61E4D95BAC6D747C395E5C4@JerriPC> No: HPFGUIDX 184894 All of the discussions of Snape's memories in The Prince's Tale, especially of Snape's Worst Memory reminded me of an issue I have long had with Harry seeing SWM back in OoP. Everything we have ever known about Snape and Harry's relationship indicates that Snape has considered Harry to be a rule breaker, line crosser, trouble maker. And this certainly doesn't seem to be shown to be wrong in The Prince's Tale. So, here is Snape giving special lessons to Harry in his office at a pre-arranged time. Does he remove the memories before Harry gets there and hide the pensive, so Harry won't know what he has done? Does he put the memories in a bottle and place the bottle out of reach? No, he removes these memories in front of Harry, and puts them in a pensive. Then, when he has to leave the office, does he push Harry out the door in front of him and lock it up? No, he sweeps out of the office, leaving Harry alone with the pensive full of memories. And he does this not ONCE, but at least two times!! WHY? (Besides the fact that JKR wanted Harry to see SWM at that point in the books.) It just doesn't seem like Snape. Jerri From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 03:12:09 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 03:12:09 -0000 Subject: Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: <6AF660C2F61E4D95BAC6D747C395E5C4@JerriPC> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184895 > Jerri: > No, he removes these memories in front of Harry, and puts them in a pensive. > > Then, when he has to leave the office, does he push Harry out the door in > front of him and lock it up? > > No, he sweeps out of the office, leaving Harry alone with the pensive full > of memories. And he does this not ONCE, but at least two times!! > > WHY? (Besides the fact that JKR wanted Harry to see SWM at that point in > the books.) Zara: Rowling set this up well, I felt. The answer to the first part (why the memories were not stowed or locked away somewhere) is that Snape expects to be in his office throughout the lesson and until after Harry leaves. As to why he does not push Harry out and lock up behind - he's failed to do so once before. He hurried out to investigate the screams he and Harry heard during an earlier lesson (Trelawney being sacked by Umbridge, as it turned out). In the SWM his assistance in sorely needed by a student in his House who has been missing - I think he is again focused ont he need of the moment rather than his opinion of Harry. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 04:06:05 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:06:05 -0000 Subject: Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: <6AF660C2F61E4D95BAC6D747C395E5C4@JerriPC> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jerri&Dan Chase" wrote: < snip> > Does he remove the memories before Harry > gets there and hide the pensive, so Harry won't know what he > has done? Does he put the memories in a bottle and place the > bottle out of reach? > It just doesn't seem like Snape. zanooda: I remember once we had a discussion about this, and someone suggested that Snape did it on purpose, because he wanted Harry to see the memory to prove to him what a jerk his father was :-). I personally never believed that Snape arranged the whole thing. The memory was so humiliating that he wouldn't want anyone to see it, especially Harry. He was mortified when he found out Harry saw it. So no, not on purpose, IMO :-). I think it's just what Zara said, Snape expected to be in the room the entire time, that's why he wasn't cautious enough. From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 04:18:28 2008 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:18:28 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184897 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/184853 > Carol: > I think a better comparison would be Regulus, intelligent like > Severus but taken in by the propaganda (an no doubt influenced, > as Severus was, by the pro-Voldemort atomosphere of Slytherin > House. Mike: I heartily agree with you, Carol. It's my belief that Voldemort wasn't showing his true intentions to any but his closest DEs, at this point in time. So Severus and Regulus would have only seen this group as an alternative organization, in the sense of alternative rock music. It wasn't something everybody enjoyed or agreed with, but all indications were that it wasn't illegal or subversive in the treasonous vein. Just different. > Carol: > It's not commendable, obviously. It's his biggest mistake next to > revealing the Prophecy to Voldemort. Mike: I think joining the DEs is Snape's biggest mistake. Revealing the prophesy was an offshoot of this first mistake. His revealing of the prophesy was him simply performing his duty as a good DE, from his pov. As far as his own life is concerned, joining up was Snape's number one mistake, to my way of looking at it. BTW, I have no proof but I'm convinced that Snape joined LV right out of school at the very least. He may have joined at the same time as Regulus which by my reckoning would have been Sev's 7th year. > Carol: > But he regrets his mistakes and works all his adult life to atone > for them, > Is he [Regulus], too, beyond the pale, once a DE, always a DE? Mike: I know he does, which makes him better than the rest of the DEs by far. And Regulus too. But don't you see the difference? Regulus sees the error of his ways very early on, by pegging Voldemort for what he was. He gives up his life in an attempt to make Voldemort mortal. Snape stayed with the DEs for at least three years. There is no indication that he found anything wrong with being a DE during this time. And he even made that other big mistake (revealing the prophesy) while being a good DE. My read is that had it not been Lily that Voldemort was going after, he would have remained a loyal DE. > Carol: > If that's the way you see it, I disagree wholeheartedly. > (What's the point of repentance if it doesn't earn forgiveness? > Might as well remain a DE.) Mike: I'd feel the same way about someone who joined the KKK, or other like organizatons and hung in with them for as long as Severus hung with the DEs. The poorness of character indicated by these actions is what makes me take the position I do. God may forgive someone like him, but I don't have to and won't. People have talked about Slytherin as being treated as "the other". Well, the DEs and Severus with them have reduced the non LV supporters as the other. It's a mindset I want no part of, and it's a character flaw that is part of their make-up, not something that was learned or forced into. You may not agree, but that's where I'm coming from. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/184859 > > Mike: > > It wasn't until Snape calls her "Mudblood", a slur > > she knew he was using with some regularity, that > > she decides enough is enough. > > Montavilla47: > Yeah, this is what I don't understand. Was it okay with Lily that > Snape was using the word with some regularity as long as he didn't > apply it to her? If so, why? If not, then why didn't she > complain about it before? Because I kind of get the idea that if > she had, he'd have stopped using it pronto. Mike: But it's much different when it happens to you, isn't it? I doubt Severus ever used that term in front of Lily, so she would only have heard it from others. She may have denied it, or that may have been one of the things she was making excuses for him. But she can't deny it now, and she won't make any excuses for him this time. Besides, I do have a feeling that she most likely did complain to Severus about it. But Severus was pretty good at changing the subject or dodging the question, wasn't he? It is an indication, imo, that he was conflicted between his new Slyth friends and remaining in Lily's good steads. It seems he chose to become an accepted member of the Slytherin hate team and hoped he could keep pulling the wool over Lily's eyes. Ironic, isn't it, that he kept hoping to expose Potter and his mates to Lily, and instead Potter exposed Severus to Lily. > Montavilla47: > I agree with you. What the heck was he thinking? I did expect > better from the guy who called himself "The Half-Blood Prince." Mike: It may be unfair, but I'll always expect better of those with the intelligence to know better than I will the easily duped. > Montavilla47: > Yep. Can't disagree with you--except that there's a little wiggle > room in that he might not have joined immediately after school > (or, as some suspect, while he was *in* school). > > But does that mean that sin can never be washed away? Mike: See above. It does in my eyes. It's the combinations of all the factors the encompassed the Snape experience, not simply that he joined. YMMV Mike From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sun Nov 16 04:51:25 2008 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:51:25 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184898 Potioncat: > Explain what you know. Which boys are in your office? Tell us what you > think the boys said. What do you feel for or about the boys? Have you > called in anyone else? Why are you taking the action you decide upon? Ceridwen: Okay, I'll play! Prank: If I am a Legilimens, I do not practice it on the students. McGonagall will never let me forget it if I do. ;) I may not be a Legilimens. Either way, I must rely upon these students to tell me what I need to know. In my office: Students: James, Sirius, Severus, Peter. Remus is still in the shack given that it is either late at night or very early in the morning - I am assuming it is still dark outside. Faculty: HoH for Gryffindor and Slytherin; Madam Pomphrey; whichever staff member heard the disturbance or was alerted to the problem by one of the boys. Why: Disturbance on the grounds - one boy has dragged another out of the tunnel leading to the Shrieking Shack, or, one of the boys, perhaps two or more of them, contacted a member of staff once these two were out of the willow's tunnel. Both boys have been seen in the infirmary to ascertain if there are any injuries and if so, if they were from werewolf bite or claw. Stories I receive: >From James & Sirius, possibly Peter: Severus has gone through the tunnel to the Shrieking Shack. James pulled him out. From Severus: Sirius told him how to get past the willow's defenses in order to find out a secret he wants to know. Severus tells me he believes that Sirius wanted to kill him. My position: I have sanctioned a werewolf's attendance at Hogwarts. I have either done this without the knowledge of the Board of Governors or I have assumed personal responsibility for his conduct and constraint at the full moon and have presented my plan to them. I believe I have vetted my plan with them and they voted on the funds needed to obtain and plant the Whomping Willow and to construct or buy the shack. My concerns: 1) Apparently the Gryffindor boys know about Remus's condition. They know how to get past the willow's defenses. Have they ever tried to visit Remus during his incarceration in the shack? 1a) Have any of them been bitten? 2) Apparently Sirius gave the secret of the willow to a fellow student who, for whatever reason, wanted to "know something" about Remus. Severus apparently suspects Remus's condition, or that there is something particular about him which is not particular to any other student. 2a) It is apparent that Severus now knows beyond a doubt that Remus is a werewolf. He got close enough to the entrance of the shack to see the beast. He had to be given a calming solution of some sort for his nerves. Other concerns: 3) The potential for a near-miss tonight and future potential for tragedy in the future. 4) The ruination of my plans to show that werewolfism is not a barrier to education. Necessities: 4a) I need to get promises of secrecy from all of these boys, hence Peter's presence whether or not he was in on the initial disruption. 4b) I need to find out the extent of the knowledge of Remus's condition. Does anyone else know? 4c) I need to troubleshoot in case one or more of these boys have told parents or other students. 5) I need to impress upon these boys that this is not a reason for pranking if that is what it was, and that Remus's condition is in no way negotiable for their personal grudges. I will treat this as an offense despite the intentions because of the gravity of the situation. In the immediate aftermath I extract promises from the boys to withhold information about Remus and his condition. I swear them all to secrecy and tell them to come back after classes the next day if it is a school day, or to come to my office after lunch if it is a weekend. I tell Madam Pomphrey to bring Remus to me once he is recovered in the morning, which should be before the other boys return. I will ask Remus what he knows about this "prank" and what his friends in Gryffindor know. I may need to visit him in the infirmary, depending on his condition after a night as a transformed beast. I ask Madam Pomphrey to advise me on which course of action will be best. I ask the HoHs and the other staff members what they know about the relationship between these five boys. I will discover that there has been a rivalry between them since their first year. Slughorn will be particularly valuable since I am assuming the same class schedules held then as they do in the books and Gryffindor and Slytherin have Potions together. I also ask if my HoHs have had to deal with these students in relation to each other, the Marauder contingent on one side and Severus and possibly other Slytherins on the other side, or if they have received complaints from one group against the other. I also ask them to speak to their prefects about these students to see if there have been other problems or scuttlebut we are not aware of. In the morning I speak to Remus. He was not aware of the plan to have Severus enter the shack. He is not pleased, I expect, since any attack he might have made against another student would have meant his immediate expulsion and possibly his future inability to interact in WW society due to publicity and lack of education. He is aware that his friends know about the willow and the shack and his condition. I will probably get the impression that he is not telling me everything, but he does not give me the overt impression that he is withholding vital information (the other Marauders are animagi). If Remus is anything like he is as an adult in PoA, he is very good at not telling something. I am left at a disadvantage since I do not know the other Gryffs are animagi. I assign detention based on the information I have to hand. I am not aware that the Gryffs are animagi but I know they are privy to something I have tried to keep secret. I extract another promise that none of the boys mention what happened. I assign detentions, splitting the Gryffs up since I believe they would merely have fun at detention if they are together. I have Severus working with one each per night for their week's detention with Mr. Filch, Hagrid, Professor Slughorn, and Madam Pomphrey. I believe the detention(s) with Madam Pomphrey will impress upon them the seriousness of what might have happened. Each boy will have a second detention with three of the four. I ensure that Sirius will have two detentions with Madam Pomphrey. I do commend James on his actions to rescue a student who is not his friend. I do not lessen his detentions because of it since I want the seriousness of the situation to be indelibly branded on their brains. I ask my HoHs and, at a later staff meeting where the problem is discussed, I also ask the other faculty and staff, to keep a closer eye on these particular students and keep track of what they are doing to each other. I also imply that I won't be unhappy if they receive more detentions for their behavior toward each other. If I think of anything else, I'll add it. Ceridwen. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 04:51:53 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:51:53 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184899 > Mike: > I know he does, which makes him better than the rest of the DEs by > far. And Regulus too. > > But don't you see the difference? Regulus sees the error of his ways > very early on, by pegging Voldemort for what he was. He gives up his > life in an attempt to make Voldemort mortal. Zara: I certainly don't. The proximate causes of Reg and Sev's issues with Voldemort were serious harm (or the threat thereof) to someone they cared about. One day Reg was proud and honored to loan the Dark Lord a House Elf, and the next he was plotting his revenge. Sev also gave his life in aid of the anti-Voldemort cause, it just took 16-17 years for it to happen. But from the time he became Albus's spy, it might have happened at any time. From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sun Nov 16 04:59:28 2008 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:59:28 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184900 Ceridwen: > If I think of anything else, I'll add it. Ceridwen: So of course, reading it over, I noticed something missing. Remus does not get detention. He was not involved in any way other than, to my knowledge, doing what he was supposed to do. I am not aware that he and his friends are cavorting outside of the shack or I would assign Remus detention, too. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 05:21:12 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 05:21:12 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184901 > Ceridwen: > So of course, reading it over, I noticed something missing. Remus > does not get detention. He was not involved in any way other than, to > my knowledge, doing what he was supposed to do. I am not aware that > he and his friends are cavorting outside of the shack or I would > assign Remus detention, too. Zara: Might you wonder how, exactly, Sirius came to know the secret of getting into the tunnel, which should have been known only to Lupin, you, Madam Pomfrey, and any other staff you might have confided it to? I can see taking the position that Lupin has suffered enough, but I would not consider him completely blameless. From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sun Nov 16 14:05:09 2008 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:05:09 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184902 Zara: > Might you wonder how, exactly, Sirius came to know the secret of > getting into the tunnel, which should have been known only to Lupin, > you, Madam Pomfrey, and any other staff you might have confided it to? > I can see taking the position that Lupin has suffered enough, but I > would not consider him completely blameless. Ceridwen: I thought I got that in the earlier post. Yes, I would wonder how Sirius knew about the willow. I would wonder if the other Gryff 5th years ever tried or succeeded in getting into the shack. I would also wonder if they had been bitten. Remus would be in the wrong for telling his friends the secret, but I would believe, lacking other evidence or suspicions, that he is being punished enough by knowing what happened and what might have happened. I would imagine he has learned a lesson already and detention is not necessary. Initially, not knowing that the four, three of whom are animagi unbeknownst to me, are leaving the shack with Remus in his werewolf form and galavanting around the countryside, I do not assign Remus any detention. He was obviously not a part of this "prank." I imagine that he is shocked to learn of it and that he understands the repercussions for himself if the "prank" had worked. If I later discovered the full-moon outings, then I would assign Remus and the other Marauders detention for the separate violation of breaking a student out of medical isolation and endangering the other students and the townsfolk and any outlying residents of the area. I would expect more from Remus since he has earned the position of prefect. In fact, Remus earning his prefect's badge would be a source of comfort to me after this incident. He has proven himself to be trustworthy and admirable in his most customary form and is a positive reflection of my werewolf education policy. The only glitch is that he did tell his friends about the willow, though I may imagine they go to the shack between full moons and pretend they have a "headquarters." I think I would be willing to cut Remus more slack based on his performance as a student and on his obvious shock and dismay at the "prank." Ceridwen. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 15:24:03 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:24:03 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184903 Alla wrote: > > So Sirius set up the Prank after all? He told Snape how to get into the Shack. **That** is the set up you are referring to? And all that Snape did is put yourself in **some risk**, some risk meaning he willingly went to see a werewolf. > I meant to address it on Carol or Magpie's post, but I may as well address it in yours. So Sirius of course does not tell Snape that they are animagi. Funny how in the third year he seems to know all their names anyways, but for the sake of argument let's say he does not know that they are animagi and never known, after all he does seem to be surprised at the end of GoF. How does that translate into **logic dictate that werewolf is restrained in some way**. Because it certainly does not translate into that for me. Snape loves DADA, Snape knows what werewolf is and werewolf can do, meaning how dangerous it is to go meet with him. He does not know what Potter and his mates are up to, however he certainly knows that they are up to something**, does he not? After all they hung with werewolf and they live. To me logically that means that Snape assumes that they know some sort of magic, which he does not. To me that means that Snape understand that it is **more** dangerous for him to go have a date with werewolf because Potter and his mates know something he does not. And he goes there anyways. Carol responds: why would he assume that they know some wort of magic he doesn't know? He's exceedingly good at DADA and, if we believe Sirius, knew more "curses" when he entered school than half the seventh years. Any spells he's seen them perform are probably spells that he also knows. (We can be sure that he knwos Expelliarmus, scourgify, and Petrificus totalus, for example--the spelll sthat ehy use in SWM. He invents his own spells and probably knows spells they don't know (Sectumsempra, if he's already invented it). He has no way of knowing that they're animagi. the nicknames don't reveal that. If anything, he would tend to underestimate their magical ability. They're just arrogant toerags in his mind, especially James. Nope. He knows that they can get safely in to see what he's pretty sure is a werewolf, and if they can do it, so can he, or so he would think. And, yes, of course, sirius set up the Prank. He admits as much himself in PoA, saying that (in his viw) Snape deserved it. Carol, who thinks that sirius and James deserved to be expelled for running with a werewolf and that Sirius deserved it yet again for nearly getting a classmate killed. You don't tell someone how to get *into* a deathtrap without telling them how to get out again without bearing responsibility for their death if they die (or their transformation if they're turned into a werewolf). He withheld vital information, the secret of his and the other Maraugers' survival. Had Severus known that they were Animagi and could survive in the transformed werewolf's presence, he would not have gone in, knowing full well that they had magic he didn't have. He's a teenage boy, and he's not going to credit his hated enemies with skills he doesn't have. Instead, he surely assumes that the werewolf is restrained in some way by Madam Pomfrey, who takes him to the Shack to transform. (Had Wolfbane Potion been invented yet? If so, Potions genius severus would assume that he was given that potion and could safely be viewed.) And even if you're right--that he assumed he knew spells that would restrain a werewolf--he was wrong and *Sirius knew he was wrong*. *He* knew what kept him and his friends alive, and *he* knew that Severus didn't share that secret. As for his seeming to know the nicknames in Harry's third year, he may simply have known that the spy who revealed the Potters' identity was Wormtail and assumed that it was Sirius. He clearly did *not* believe that Peter was a rat Animagus and was shocked when Padfoot transformed into Sirius in front of him. but when four "men" with odd nicknames insult him and express surprise that he became a professor, he can have no doubt who those four "men" are. Carol, who doubts that Severus was suicidal at the timeof the so-called Prank, as he would have to be to enter the Shack thinking he'd encounter an unrestrained werewolf From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 15:46:40 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:46:40 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS: Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184904 Carol: Nope. He knows that they can get safely in to see what he's pretty sure is a werewolf, and if they can do it, so can he, or so he would think. Alla: So, Snape does not know why they are safe, but according to your argument he will assume that whatever keeps them safe will keep him safe as well? Why would he ever do it if he is so good at DADA and he has no idea what exactly makes him safe? What a stupid assumption to make in my view. Carol: Carol, who doubts that Severus was suicidal at the timeof the so-called Prank, as he would have to be to enter the Shack thinking he'd encounter an unrestrained werewolf Alla: Um, if he enters Shack not knowing what exactly keeps Marauders safe, then yes, it seems to me that he is looking for certain death OR he is so arrogant that despite not knowing why Marauders hang out with werewolf and lived, he thinks he has his own methods for keeping werewolf in check. Carol: Carol, who thinks that sirius and James deserved to be expelled for running with a werewolf and that Sirius deserved it yet again for nearly getting a classmate killed. Alla: Yeah, see if you would have said that Sirius deserved to be expelled for giving information to the classmate, I certainly agree that he deserved at least some punishment. But **nearly getting classmate killed**? That is my principal objection basically. I think Magpie again (thank you Magpie, maybe I should just stop talking and let you talk ) said pretty much how I feel. Magpie: Sirius knows that Snape is planning on doing something dangerous and as a fellow human being that gives him some responsibility to at the very least not help him to do this dangerous thing. However that's not "tricking" Snape if Snape is going into the willow expecting to find Lupin the werewolf inside. As I said I do hold Sirius responsible for bad actions here. Just not Snape's bad actions. They're both two teenagers doing reckless things. This is very different than the way Snape made it seem to me when he first told the story. Now it's more like Snape blaming Sirius for helping him do something stupid without acknowledging that the desire to do this stupid thing was also Snape's. Alla: Bottom line to me that no matter how harmful for Snape's health this information could have been, Sirius could have never been hundred percent sure that Snape will have used it. Never, ever. Sirius could have hoped, wanted him to use it, but again, to me it is not **tricking Snape** or **setting Snape up**. That is really my main objection, it is not like I am saying that Sirius had a benevolent intent, or did a good thing here. So, of course Sirius gave him the tools, which he should not have. But Sirius did not make Snape to use them, Snape and only Snape is responsible for that. JMO, Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Nov 16 16:39:42 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 16:39:42 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS: Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184905 > Alla: > > Um, if he enters Shack not knowing what exactly keeps Marauders safe, then yes, it seems to me that he is looking for certain death OR he is so arrogant that despite not knowing why Marauders hang out with werewolf and lived, he thinks he has his own methods for keeping werewolf in check. Pippin: Or, he simply doesn't think that far ahead, just as Sirius does not think far enough ahead to anticipate the consequences to Lupin. IMO, Sirius is not thinking past the glorious moment when Snape gets what he deserves, and Snape is not thinking past the glorious moment when he gets proof of his theory. It is like Harry going to rescue Sirius from the Ministry. He never plans what he's going to do when he actually gets there. He doesn't think he has some means of fighting Voldemort and it doesn't occur to him that he needs one. The thing I can't get past is that Sirius does know that Snape is going to encounter a loose werewolf, and he withholds that information very deliberately from Snape. It would be different if Sirius did not have any more information about what is in the tunnel than Snape has. Then I would say that Sirius was just hoping that Snape would get himself into trouble, and though that was still a nasty thing to do, he wasn't knowingly withholding information about a life-threatening situation. > Alla: > > Bottom line to me that no matter how harmful for Snape's health this information could have been, Sirius could have never been hundred percent sure that Snape will have used it. Never, ever. Pippin: Why is the standard 100 percent? Could Voldemort be 100 per cent sure that Harry would go to the Ministry? Of course not. And yet we don't say that Voldemort didn't set Harry up. Voldemort knows there are Death Eaters waiting to capture Harry and Harry doesn't, though he's been warned that Sirius and Voldemort can't possibly be there and it has to be some kind of trick. Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 16:40:16 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 16:40:16 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184906 zanooda wrote: > But so do the Weasleys - Molly (once with Arthur) always waits for the kids outside the barrier. As a matter of fact, no parents, wizard or muggle, are ever shown meeting their kids on the platform nine and three quarters - only seeing them off. But, Carol, if you find it unbelievable that Muggles can pass through the barrier, here is another idea: someone from the school Side-Apparates them directly to the platform. How does it work for you :-)? > > zanooda, who finds it believable either way ... > Carol responds: Nope, it doesn't work for me since we never see any other Muggles on the platform, including parents of first-years sending their kids off to Hogwarts for the first time. The only way we see anyone get on is by running a cart through the wall. I suppose that the parents and Petunia could have climbed into the cart and gone charging through the wall along with the trunk, but would they have, especially magic-fearing, magic-hating Petunia? And the only magical person with them is Lily, who certainly doesn't know how to side-along Apparate before she's even attended Hogwarts. Carol, who has yet to hear a believable explanation From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Nov 16 16:55:05 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 16:55:05 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184907 > Carol responds: > Nope, it doesn't work for me since we never see any other Muggles on > the platform, including parents of first-years sending their kids off to Hogwarts for the first time. Pippin: Adult wizards at King's Cross would have to be wearing Muggle dress unless they apparated in or used disillusionment charms. Actual Muggle parents would blend in. Harry, or the narrator, assumed that the adults he saw were witches and wizards, that's all. Harry didn't know any Muggle parents by sight, except the Grangers, so how would he know? Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 16 17:57:30 2008 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 16 Nov 2008 17:57:30 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/16/2008, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1226858250.9.53197.m41@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184908 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday November 16, 2008 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2008 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 18:52:09 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:52:09 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184909 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > Had Wolfbane Potion been invented yet? If so, > Potions genius Severus would assume that he was given that potion > and could safely be viewed. zanooda: The Wolfsbane potion was not invented yet, Lupin said in PoA that it was "a very recent discovery", and he described how he bit himself and screamed during transformation, which he doesn't do after taking the potion. Also, James and Sirius wouldn't have needed to "keep a werewolf in check" as animals, if he was able to keep his mind after the transformation. No, I think Snape just thought that the werewolf was either caged, or magically restrained somehow, as you and others already said. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 19:04:48 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:04:48 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184910 Mike wrote: > > I know he does, which makes him better than the rest of the DEs by far. And Regulus too. > > > > But don't you see the difference? Regulus sees the error of his ways very early on, by pegging Voldemort for what he was. He gives up his life in an attempt to make Voldemort mortal. > Zara responded: > I certainly don't. The proximate causes of Reg and Sev's issues with Voldemort were serious harm (or the threat thereof) to someone they cared about. One day Reg was proud and honored to loan the Dark Lord a House Elf, and the next he was plotting his revenge. Sev also gave his life in aid of the anti-Voldemort cause, it just took 16-17 years for it to happen. But from the time he became Albus's spy, it might have happened at any time. > Carol responds: Not to mention that Snape provided Dumbledore with years of useful information and Harry with years of protection, whereas Regulus's sacrifice didn't really deprive Voldemort of a Horcrux since neither he nor Kreacher knew how to destroy the thing. Not to take away from Reguulus's courage or repentance, but Severus's was more useful. He also saved the lives of Dumbledore (it's not his fault that DD didn't come sooner and wouldn't let him talk further about the curse), Katie Bell, Draco, and Lupin--maybe more that we don't know about: "Lately, only those whom I could not save" implies that he has saved other lives unrelated to protecting Harry. What saved Kreacher, OTOH, was simply regulus' order to return. And, of course, Regulus drank the potion himself the second time around. But, ultimately, Harry and DD would have retrieved the true Horcrux if Regulus had not taken it first, so Snape's contribution to the cause was more useful by far. As for remorse, we know how strong Snape's was. It motivated him, along with his love for Lily, for the rest of his too-short life. He *could* simply have regretted it as Draco did but done nothing. Instead, he did everything he could to bring down Voldemort, at great personal risk and ultimately, at the cost of his life. (Had he not killed Dumbledore on DD's orders, he would not have died by Voldemort's hand.) Carol, who agrees that the remorse in both cases was sudden and personally motivated, but motivation for most of the characters in the series is personal From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 20:27:21 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 20:27:21 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS: Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184911 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Carol: > > Nope. He knows that they can get safely in to see what he's pretty > sure is a werewolf, and if they can do it, so can he, or so he would > think. > > > Alla: > So, Snape does not know why they are safe, but according to your > argument he will assume that whatever keeps them safe will keep him > safe as well? Why would he ever do it if he is so good at DADA and he > has no idea what exactly makes him safe? What a stupid assumption to > make in my view. Carol responds: Stupid, maybe. But he invents his own spells, and he knows they're no better at DADA than he is. He has no way of knowing or even guessing that it isn't DADA but an illegal form of Transfiguration that protects them. There's a great deal of stupidity on both sides by *two* sixteen-year-old boys, one of whom endangers himself, the other of whom provides the means for him to do so at no risk to himself (other than expulsion or imprisonment if the other boy is killed. As I said in my previous post, he provided a way *in* to the death trap but no way out. And, as someone else noted, it *would* have been a Death Trap--a teenage boy, no matter how talented, trapped with a maddened werewolf who would not stop with a single bite. > Carol: > > Carol, who doubts that Severus was suicidal at the time of the so-called Prank, as he would have to be to enter the Shack thinking he'd encounter an unrestrained werewolf > > Alla: > > Um, if he enters Shack not knowing what exactly keeps Marauders safe, then yes, it seems to me that he is looking for certain death OR he is so arrogant that despite not knowing why Marauders hang out with werewolf and lived, he thinks he has his own methods for keeping werewolf in check. Carol: But since when is arrogance a crime worthy of death? The Marauders, or at any rate, Sirius and James, were at least as arrogant. Just ask Lily. Severus *knew* he was talented. Of course, he would think that if they could do it, he could. That's typical teenage boy thinking. (They all have an incompletely developed cerebral cortex, so I've heard, which would partially explain, if not excuse, the behavior of both Severus and Sirius here. :-) To be fair, so do teenage girls though the risks they take are different.) > Carol earlier: > > Carol, who thinks that Sirius and James deserved to be expelled for running with a werewolf and that Sirius deserved it yet again for nearly getting a classmate killed. > > Alla: > > Yeah, see if you would have said that Sirius deserved to be expelled > for giving information to the classmate, I certainly agree that he > deserved at least some punishment. But **nearly getting classmate > killed**? That is my principal objection basically. Carol: How about "Would have deserved expulsion if his classmate had been bitten or killed"? Carol, thanking Alla for ignoring all the typos in her earlier post and promising to proofread the next one more carefully From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 16 21:40:31 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:40:31 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS: Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184912 > > Alla: > > > > Bottom line to me that no matter how harmful for Snape's health this > information could have been, Sirius could have never been hundred > percent sure that Snape will have used it. Never, ever. > > Pippin: > Why is the standard 100 percent? Could Voldemort be 100 per cent sure > that Harry would go to the Ministry? Of course not. > > And yet we don't say that Voldemort didn't set Harry up. Voldemort > knows there are Death Eaters waiting to capture Harry and Harry > doesn't, though he's been warned that Sirius and Voldemort can't > possibly be there and it has to be some kind of trick. Alla: Excellent example, Pippin! That is I consider it to be an excellent example of what I consider to be a true set up and what The Prank is not for me, not completely anyways. So, could you please tell me what is in Prank in your view takes place of Sirius being tortured in the ministry? What is the incentive to go to the place where person being set up will be ambushed? Because in Voldemort and Harry situation the incentive is crystal clear to me - Harry is being told that his Godfather is being tortured. Of course he had been warned that it **could be** a trick by Hermione. But nobody told him for sure, especially none of the adults, didn't they? But even if they did, even if he had a slightest hesitancy that his loved is being tortured, yes, I consider it a set up. Now switch to Prank. Again, if Snape was being told that Lily is there, being tortured or Lily making love to James or Lily being in any kind of danger, certainly I would consider it a set up, absolutely. I keep bringing up Lily since she seems to be an obvious choice after book 7, however, anything will do. How about the rare DADA book or Potion book? How about telling him that they want to resolve their business once and forever? Anything will do for me to consider this to be a trick in a way that I consider Voldemort and Harry situation. But all that I see is that Snape wanting to go and Sirius telling him how to. I am more than happy to hold Sirius accountable for giving Snape that information, however I am not holding him accountable for **tricking** Snape. It is as if in Voldemort and Harry's situation all Voldemort would have done is sent Harry a dream of how to go to the Ministry. Bad Voldemort, very bad, but I would not consider it to be a set up. JMO, Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Nov 16 23:07:15 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:07:15 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS: Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184913 > > Alla: > > Excellent example, Pippin! That is I consider it to be an excellent > example of what I consider to be a true set up and what The Prank is not for me, not completely anyways. > > So, could you please tell me what is in Prank in your view takes > place of Sirius being tortured in the ministry? What is the incentive to go to the place where person being set up will be ambushed? Pippin: The incentive was to get proof that Sirius and the others were doing something that would make them unworthy of attending Hogwarts or of Lily's admiration. Since the Marauders were indeed doing unworthy things, I think we can say they provided that incentive. I think it was quite reasonable for Snape to be sure that the Marauders were not sneaking out at night to do charity work. Of course it was not in the general case Snape's business, but then it wassn't Harry's business to rescue people from Voldemort, either. He'd been told in no uncertain terms to ignore or shut out the dreams and that the war was for grown ups. Alla: But nobody told him for sure, especially none of the > adults, didn't they? Pippin: Just so, none of the adults told Snape that he would be in danger from a werewolf. He'd been warned of other dangers involved in sneaking out at night into a forbidden area. But so had Harry. Alla: > It is as if in Voldemort and Harry's situation all Voldemort would > have done is sent Harry a dream of how to go to the Ministry. Bad > Voldemort, very bad, but I would not consider it to be a set up. > Pippin: Nor would I, except that Voldemort knew that there would be DE's there waiting to ambush Harry. As a matter of fact, Voldemort did try this. Lucius says Voldemort thought Harry would have come before, out of curiosity about the prophecy. If Harry had known there was a prophecy, it probably would have worked. If it had worked, it would still have been a set-up, IMO, an attempt to compromise someone through deceit or trickery. If you will acknowledge that Sirius was deceitful, that he intended for Snape to put himself in a dangerous situation and that he had contributed significantly to creating the circumstances under which Snape would think he had something to gain by doing so, I really do not care whether you call that a set-up or not. Pippin From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 00:12:32 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 00:12:32 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS: Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184914 > > Pippin: > > Why is the standard 100 percent? Could Voldemort be 100 per cent > sure > > that Harry would go to the Ministry? Of course not. > > > > And yet we don't say that Voldemort didn't set Harry up. > Voldemort > > knows there are Death Eaters waiting to capture Harry and Harry > > doesn't, though he's been warned that Sirius and Voldemort can't > > possibly be there and it has to be some kind of trick. > > > Alla: > > Excellent example, Pippin! That is I consider it to be an excellent > example of what I consider to be a true set up and what The Prank is > not for me, not completely anyways. > > So, could you please tell me what is in Prank in your view takes > place of Sirius being tortured in the ministry? What is the incentive > to go to the place where person being set up will be ambushed? > > Because in Voldemort and Harry situation the incentive is crystal > clear to me - Harry is being told that his Godfather is being > tortured. > Montavilla47: But what if Voldemort hadn't sent a vision of Sirius being tortured, but a vision of Sirius being endangered in a more indirect way? Harry might not have rushed off immediately, but he still might have rushed into danger if he felt he didn't have any other alternatives. One thing we do know about Snape's end of the Prank is that he--before the Prank took place--told Lily that he *thought* Lupin was a werewolf. (Because she refers to his having spoken about his "theory" before.) We also know, because Lily quickly brushes that aside, that she wasn't buying his theory. That means that Lily has a werewolf in her House. Someone she would spend time alone with, as they are both Prefects. Someone she might be "interested" in. Who knows what might happen? It's not exactly the same as having your best friend spending time with someone with--say--bi-polar disorder, because Lupin's transformations are very limited and very predictable, but it's still a situation fraught with danger. And Snape's run out of options in terms of warning Lily. Now, if he were content to warn and wasn't obsessed with protecting her, then maybe he could walk away and say, "I told you so" when she ends up bitten. But that's not what Snape does. So, Sirius doesn't *need* to provide Snape with an incentive to go down into the tunnel. Snape's acting a lot like Harry in HBP. He *knows* something is going on. The person he thinks should be taking this idea seriously isn't. So, he is driven to find positive proof--even if Lily is telling him to mind his own beeswax. I really like the Voldemort analogy. How fun that JKR puts both events in the same book! And heck, I'm the person who always says that Harry was a pure idiot for going to the Ministry--and that, while he isn't to blame for Sirius's death, he's a lot more responsible than Snape (who he blames). So, I guess I should admit that Snape is at least as stupid as Harry in going under the tunnel and he really shouldn't blame Sirius anymore than Harry should, uh, blame Voldemort. No, wait... that doesn't work. But Sirius certainly doesn't deserve any more blame than Snape in the Prank. Montavilla47 From catlady at wicca.net Mon Nov 17 00:23:45 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 00:23:45 -0000 Subject: Chapter 33 discussion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184915 Carol summarized Chapter 33 in : << Sirius, sitting across from him, says unhappily that his whole family have been in Slytherin. After placating James by saying that maybe he'll break the tradition, >> You and I have always disagreed on what is in Sirius's mind when he says these things. I believe we agree that when James dissed Slytherin, Sirius thought James might reject his friendship because of his Slytherin family. You think Sirius is "unhappily" scared of losing James's friendship. I think Sirius is poised to return an attack if one comes, or to resume friendliness if no attack comes. I guess the adverb I would use is 'guardedly'. I don't agree that Sirius said he might not be in Slytherin just to 'placate' James. I believe that Sirius had long been thinking of joining a different House as a way of annoying his parents and avoiding his cousin Bellatrix. I think that when he told James he might 'break the tradition', he didn't mean 'Please like me, I'll believe whatever you believe and not do anything you condemn' (altho' that is the kind of things that many dogs would say) (but knock over the trashcan to eat the garbage anyway). I think he meant: 'Since we're friends now, I'll tell you my secret plan.' Nor do I believe that Sirius chose Gryffindor just to be with James. Perhaps he had already considered Gryffindor House as the one his family most disliked, altho' I think he hadn't thought that far ahead. I think it was the Sorting Hat that looked in his head and saw 'Not Slytherin!' on top. The Hat could see that he was too arrogant for Hufflepuff and too rowdy for Ravenclaw, so 'better be -- GRYFFINDOR!' << Snape says that he thought Dumbledore was going to keep Lily safe, and Dumbledore responds that the Potters put their faith in the wrong person. He asks whether Snape did the same thing, hoping that Voldemort would spare Lily, >> >From the first time I read that scene, I wonder if Dumbledore or Rowling secretly meant that *Dumbledore* is the wrong person in whom Snape placed his trust. << He asks Snape to keep an eye on Quirrell for him. >> I thought of mentioning this in my reply to JLyon's "Dumbledore's Worthless" post , saying << This is with his mastery of Legillimency not detecting Quirellmort>> but I decided that my reply was only about Book 2 so I didn't point out that Snape was DD's way of dealing with Quirrelmort. << 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)? >> Remember in Book 1, Hagrid handed Harry "[His] ticket fer Hogwarts ... First o' September -- King's Cross -- it's all on yer ticket." It seemed to me from a very early date that the ticket was needed for entering Platform 9 3/4 rather than for boarding the train. Wizarding parents would know where to pick up Platform 9 3/4 passes for their kids and everyone seeing the kids off. The person who comes to explain to Muggle parents about Hogwarts could either tell them where to get the passes (presumably somewhere in Diagon Alley, where they have to go anyway to get school supplies) or could just give the passes to the parents. << 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the end of the chapter the first time through? >> Montavilla47 replied to question 21 in : << It confirmed my view of Snape as being Dumbledore's man. I was surprised at how callous Lily and Dumbledore were towards Snape. I was disappointed in how manipulative Dumbledore was. >> My reaction was much the same as Montavilla47's. I was really shocked and disappointed that DD hadn't become more friendly or fatherly to Snape after all those years of working together. I knew it was going to be LOLLIPOPS, but I still *wish* it had been Snape reaching a philosophical conclusion that murder is evil and bigotry against Muggleborns is stupid. I had long wondered what was DD's absolute proof that Snape was on his side, and the silver doe Patronus was it for LOLLIPOPS!Snape, and I still can't think what it would be for conscience!Snape. jkoney65 wrote in : << The whole noble (at least in his mind) thought of never telling anyone made him look like he was trying to set himself up as some trajic character in a second rate story. >> It never occured to me that Snape thought he was being noble by keeping it secret. I thought Snape wanted it kept secret because he was ashamed of it; he was ashamed of sentimentality and showing his feelings; he was aware that his friends like Lucius Malfoy would criticize him unmercifully for playing nanny to the child of a Mudblood and a Muggle-lover, not to mention the child of his worst enemy. Carol wrote in : << Voldemort's "dispose of your dead with dignity," aside from being part of the rules of medieval warfare that someone mentioned (he like to go through the formalities ("We bow to one another, Harry" in the graveyard) strikes me as a pretense of humanity (like the statements he makes about admiring courage and being merciful) from someone who has no idea, not the faintest, how it feels to lose a loved one. You don't *dispose* of your dead with dignity, not if you have any choice in the matter. You bury them with honor, you hold a funeral servce, and you mourn. >> Part of what was going on is that "dispose of your dead with dignity" has great alliteration that appealed to LV, Rowling, or both. From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Mon Nov 17 00:24:45 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 00:24:45 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS: Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184916 > > Alla: > > > > Excellent example, Pippin! That is I consider it to be an excellent > > example of what I consider to be a true set up and what The Prank is > > not for me, not completely anyways. > > > > So, could you please tell me what is in Prank in your view takes > > place of Sirius being tortured in the ministry? What is the incentive > > to go to the place where person being set up will be ambushed? > > > > Because in Voldemort and Harry situation the incentive is crystal > > clear to me - Harry is being told that his Godfather is being > > tortured. > > > Montavilla47: > So, Sirius doesn't *need* to provide Snape with an incentive > to go down into the tunnel. Snape's acting a lot like Harry > in HBP. He *knows* something is going on. The person he > thinks should be taking this idea seriously isn't. So, he > is driven to find positive proof--even if Lily is telling him > to mind his own beeswax. Magpie: I think the point is since Sirius isn't providing him a fake incentive or any incentive there's no trick. The trick is supposed to be against Snape, that *Snape* is put into danger by going into the tunnel. The incentive came from Snape and the incentive was just as real as Snape's theory--he though they were concealing a werewolf away from the students once a month and they were. That idea came from reality. Snape figured it out on his own and wanted proof of it-- protecting Lily might have been one reason in his mind but it's hard not to think the "protection" applied to all the Marauders rather than Lupin. Their conversation, that I remember, didn't seem to show Snape primarily concerned with Lily being hurt. It seemed more like he wanted to be proven right and for the Marauders to get in trouble because he hated them. But regardless the only way Sirius got involved was to give Snape information on how to get into the willow. Snape's decision to go into the willow was actually pretty well-informed. He knew the dangerous creature concealed inside. He didn't know what form or protection he would need or would use against him, it seems, but he knew he didn't know that. -m From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 01:07:44 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 01:07:44 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS: Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184917 Pippin: < HUGE SNIP> If you will > acknowledge that Sirius was deceitful, that he intended for Snape to > put himself in a dangerous situation and that he had contributed > significantly to creating the circumstances under which Snape would > think he had something to gain by doing so, I really do not care > whether you call that a set-up or not. Alla: Was deceitful? Totally - he concealed that they are animagi. Intended for Snape to put himself in dangerous situation - **absolutely**, whether he wanted to play a joke on Snape and wanted to scare him, which is what I believe, or even if he in his mind wanted Snape dead, which is what I do not believe. But **contributed > significantly to creating the circumstances under which Snape would > think he had something to gain by doing so**? No I would never agree with this proposition. I can certainly agree that he enabled Snape to do what Snape already wanted to do, but nothing more than that. JMO, Alla From catlady at wicca.net Mon Nov 17 01:14:46 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 01:14:46 -0000 Subject: Snape / Theo / Peter Peter Death Eater / Snape's Memories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184918 More about chapter 33 changing my view of Snape in a disappointing way: I'd thought he already had that mouth on him by age 11, sarcasm that his fellow Slytherins were pleased to use as a weapon on their enemies, but were a bit afraid of being on the receiving end of it themselves. SWM had already stated that he walked like a spider in fifth year, and while it would be ridiculous for a teen-ager to swoop dramatically, I thought he had walked with more appearance of confidence. Potioncat wrote in : << Is it just the 2 of us who still call Theodore Nott "Theo"? >> Me, too. << I wonder if blowing up 12 Muggles was acccidental? We've always wondered how poor Peter has managed to work such amazing magic. >> I've always thought that the Ministry didn't have to work very hard to offer an exploding gas main as the Muggle explanation of these deaths, beside to me the way Peter did it was to curse the gas main to explode. I figure Peter knows about gas mains because he was Muggle-born. All the proof I can offer is that JKR once replied that Muggle-borns weren't allowed to be Death Eaters except in very special circumstances, and the most special circumstance I can think of is being the Potters' Secret Keeper; also it would explain why no one ever thought Peter could be the traitor. Carol wrote in : << Even Sirius doesn't know as of his own arrest just after Godric's Hollow (and doesn't find out in prison, either) that Snape became a DE. >> Why didn't he find out in prison? Snape was an open Death Eater, known to other Death Eaters like Karkaroff, while Peter was a secret Death Eater, not known to the other Death Eaters, and Sirius heard Death Eaters screaming in their nightmares about Peter being a Light Side agent who led LV into a trap. So why didn't he hear about Snape? I can never get the logic of this part, anyway. If Peter was secret, how did the imprisoned DEs know to scream against him? I believe it was Pippin who suggested that the only one he heard screaming about Peter was Bellatrix, at least until the others picked it up from her, and Bellatrix can be more knowledgeable than the average Death Eater. I suppose someone has already suggested that LV may have bragged to his DEs that he had a secret agent named Wormtail who told him where the Potters were, so the DEs could scream against 'Wormtail' rather than Peter. Sirius would know who 'Wormtail' is. Was Sirius right that Peter was hiding as a rat from fear of DE revenge on the agent who led LV to his death? If Bellatrix was the only one who knew about him, I'd think he wasn't in danger while she was in Azkaban. He apparently didn't know that Bellatrix and young Barty were the only DEs inclined to seek revenge for LV. If he knew that the DEs, including those who walked free, knew that the agent was 'Wormtail', would he be paranoid to fear that they'll figure out that 'Wormtail' is him? Carol wrote in in : << otherwise he would not have put three memories--SWM and two others that we don't get to see--in the Pensieve so Harry won't see them >> This reminded me that since DH, we have more evidence with which to speculate on what the other two memories were. Magpie wrote in : << [Snape felt] a moment of real fear when he saw he was facing a werewolf, followed by James of all people dragging him to safety. I think that moment of pants-wetting fear, perhaps followed by clinging to James...that might be a truly humiliating memory for him. (Maybe that was one of the ones in the Pensieve along with the one we saw in SWM.) >> You think? SWM suggests that what Snape wanted to hide from Harry is memories of being humiliated by James (surely it happened more than three times). But wouldn't it be logical for him to hide memories that he didn't want LV to see via Harryvision, memories of him being loyal to DD? The one where he met DD to beg for protection for Lily and the one where he went to DD after Lily's death and promised to protect Harry would seem to qualify, as would any memory of him telling DD about an LV plan or naming names. Is it canon that James dragged Severus out of the tunnel? I have a vision of James sending Severus out while James remained to slow down Moony (in Prongs form), but he wanted Severous *gone* before he transformed and Severus refused to be such a coward as to run away leaving someone behind, and James desperately saying that he knew a secret defense against this werewolf that Severus didn't know seemed to Severus to be a lie. So I guess James levitated Severus, maybe put Full Body Bind on him, and Mobilicorpus'ed him from the tunnel, which also would be pretty humiliating. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 01:14:55 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 01:14:55 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS: Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184919 Magpie wrote: > > But regardless the only way Sirius got involved was to give Snape > information on how to get into the willow. Snape's decision to go > into the willow was actually pretty well-informed. He knew the > dangerous creature concealed inside. He didn't know what form or > protection he would need or would use against him, it seems, but he > knew he didn't know that. Carol responds: However much severus may have wanted to verify his theory and find out what the Marauders were up to and regardless of his reason or resasons for wanting to do so, he could not have gotten past the Whomping Willow had Sirius not told him how to do so--Here's how to get *into* danger, in essence. But Severus could not have gotten out again because he wasn't an Animagus--information which would have saved his life had he known it because he would not have gone down there. Instead, he had to be saved by James. Sirius would have let him die. He did not have the information he needed to make an informed decision because Sirius withheld it from him. Had he known that WPP were Animagi and were safe from the werewolf as he, not being an Animagus was not, we could blame him for suicidal stupidity and deliberate self-endangerment. But since he only thought he would be safe, he *was* tricked or tempted into going down by someone who knew full well that Severus did not have the same protection that he, Sirius, did--or any protection at all. I just don't see how Sirius can get off the hook for giving him the key to the werewolf's cage without another key to get back out again. Not being a lawyer, I'm not sure what specific charges Sirius would have faced in a court of law had severus died, assuming that he was tried as an adult, but I can think of three possibilities: second-degree murder, manslaughter, and criminal endangerment. Regardless, providing the means to enable a fellow student to endanger himself is about as "amusing" as bringing Death Eaters into the school, the fact that it endangered only one student notwithstanding. Carol, who thinks that if the shoe had been on the other foot, Sirius would have been at least as eager to prove his bravery and competence as Severus was to prove his theory, particularly if he thought he could get Severus in trouble into the bargain From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Mon Nov 17 01:55:11 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 01:55:11 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS: Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184920 > Magpie wrote: > > > > But regardless the only way Sirius got involved was to give Snape > > information on how to get into the willow. Snape's decision to go > > into the willow was actually pretty well-informed. He knew the > > dangerous creature concealed inside. He didn't know what form or > > protection he would need or would use against him, it seems, but he > > knew he didn't know that. > > Carol responds: > > However much severus may have wanted to verify his theory and find out > what the Marauders were up to and regardless of his reason or resasons > for wanting to do so, he could not have gotten past the Whomping > Willow had Sirius not told him how to do so--Here's how to get *into* > danger, in essence. Magpie: Yes, and that is what I think Sirius should be held responsible for. He intentionally gave Snape help to do something dangerous to Snape. I just wouldn't describe that as tricking him or tempting him. It's like if somebody wanted to commit murder and I got them a gun. I would be very much responsible in the death of the person they killed by giving the person a gun to kill the person. I would not be guilty of tricking the person into murder or even enticing them to murder the other person. Presumably that would be something they came up with all on their own. Carol: But Severus could not have gotten out again > because he wasn't an Animagus--information which would have saved his > life had he known it because he would not have gone down there. > Instead, he had to be saved by James. Sirius would have let him die. He did not have the information he needed to make an informed decision > because Sirius withheld it from him. Magpie: Yes, but I don't think that makes him completely uninformed in the way you're describing. He didn't know how the Marauders were surviving and I do agree that that information was something Sirius needed to give him if he really wanted to be free of responsibility. But Snape knew that he had no information about how the werewolf would be restrained, if at all, and how he would get in and out safely. So while I agree witholding the Animagi information gives Sirius culpability, I couldn't really say that it makes him responsible for Snape going into the tunnel. There being a werewolf in the place was a good deterrant and he decided to go in there. To me the information it seems he did know--that there was a werewolf-- is the most important thing he needed to be informed. He knew that the Marauders hadn't shared with him their secret for staying safe if they had one. Prior to DH it seemed like Snape didn't know there was a werewolf and that's why he claimed it was attempted murder. Now it seems like he did know but he went in without a clear knowledge of how he was going to be safe from said werewolf. The idea that he would be safe was just vague speculation on his part. Carol: > > I just don't see how Sirius can get off the hook for giving him the > key to the werewolf's cage without another key to get back out again. Magpie: He's not off the hook with me. He's guilty of giving Snape the key to get in without having any way of knowing how he would get out again. It's the decision to go in to see the dangerous werewolf with no real way of knowing how to protect himself Sirius isn't guilty of now for me. Carol: > > Not being a lawyer, I'm not sure what specific charges Sirius would > have faced in a court of law had severus died, assuming that he was > tried as an adult, but I can think of three possibilities: > second-degree murder, manslaughter, and criminal endangerment. > Regardless, providing the means to enable a fellow student to endanger > himself is about as "amusing" as bringing Death Eaters into the > school, the fact that it endangered only one student notwithstanding. Magpie: I'm not a lawyer either, but I can't imagine he'd be guilty of something like manslaughter or murder or even criminal endangerment because he told Snape how to get into the willow when Snape knew there was a werewolf in there and went in to prove it to himself. > Carol, who thinks that if the shoe had been on the other foot, Sirius > would have been at least as eager to prove his bravery and competence > as Severus was to prove his theory, particularly if he thought he > could get Severus in trouble into the bargain Magpie: And if Sirius went into the willow knowing there was a werewolf there in order to prove his bravery I wouldn't blame Snape for it either, even if Snape was the one to give him the key to the willow. I'd only blame Snape for the action of giving him the key when he obviously shouldn't have, because as a fellow human being he shouldn't help someone do something self-destructive. -m From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 02:15:44 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 02:15:44 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS: Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184921 > > Carol responds: > > > > However much severus may have wanted to verify his theory and find > out > > what the Marauders were up to and regardless of his reason or > resasons > > for wanting to do so, he could not have gotten past the Whomping > > Willow had Sirius not told him how to do so--Here's how to get > *into* > > danger, in essence. > > Magpie: > Yes, and that is what I think Sirius should be held responsible for. > He intentionally gave Snape help to do something dangerous to Snape. > I just wouldn't describe that as tricking him or tempting him. It's > like if somebody wanted to commit murder and I got them a gun. I > would be very much responsible in the death of the person they killed > by giving the person a gun to kill the person. I would not be guilty > of tricking the person into murder or even enticing them to murder > the other person. Presumably that would be something they came up > with all on their own. Montavilla47: I really don't disagree with you. However, it's really more like giving a person a gun if they want to play Russian roulette. And it's even more like showing them the gun, holding it up to your temple, pulling the trigger so that they see that the gun isn't going to go off, and then neglecting to tell them that the bullet is in the next chamber. :) Or neglecting to tell them that you have a bullet-proof plate in your head. :) > Magpie: > Prior to DH it seemed like Snape didn't know there was a werewolf and > that's why he claimed it was attempted murder. Now it seems like he > did know but he went in without a clear knowledge of how he was going > to be safe from said werewolf. The idea that he would be safe was > just vague speculation on his part. Montavilla47: Just keeping in this part in because I agree completely. That was, I thought, the reason behind Dumbledore saying, "My memory is as good as it ever was." I thought Dumbledore was telling Snape, "This idea of yours that Sirius was trying to murder you is a bit overdone. You were both sixteen and you were both idiots. That's what I remember." I suppose one could read it as Dumbledore saying, "Yes. And I remember that you were the jerk who told Voldemort about the Prophecy. Go back to your dungeon, oh Disgusting One." :) From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 02:27:39 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 02:27:39 -0000 Subject: Chapter 33 discussion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184922 > Catlady: > I knew it was going to be LOLLIPOPS, but I still *wish* it had been > Snape reaching a philosophical conclusion that murder is evil and > bigotry against Muggleborns is stupid. I had long wondered what was > DD's absolute proof that Snape was on his side, and the silver doe > Patronus was it for LOLLIPOPS!Snape, and I still can't think what it > would be for conscience!Snape. Zara: It seems you believe that ALbus knew the form of Snape's Patronus. What greates this impression for you? I walked away from "The Prince's Tale" with the impression he might not have known this until Snape showed it to him in their conversation following the argment in the Forest. Albus's reactions ("After all these years?") suggested to me this was news to him. If they'd been routinely using it to communicate, I would find this an odd response. It would mean, somehow, that Albus knew the form but had never particualrly considered what this betokened abotu Snape's current emotions/motives. If I am right, the patronus is not the absolute proof. (Because Albus referred to having such proof, long before he knew about the doe). SO my answer to the "LOLLIPOPS" proof is he saw Snape's terror for Lily, and his remorse over her death, and witnessed his dedication as a spy, and this sum total just made sense in a way that Albus considered rock solid. This, of course, would also be the proof for "conscience!Snape", as you term it. Personally, I don't see these "versions" of Snape as mutually exclusive. From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Mon Nov 17 02:28:40 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 02:28:40 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS: Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184923 > > Magpie: > > Yes, and that is what I think Sirius should be held responsible for. > > He intentionally gave Snape help to do something dangerous to Snape. > > I just wouldn't describe that as tricking him or tempting him. It's > > like if somebody wanted to commit murder and I got them a gun. I > > would be very much responsible in the death of the person they killed > > by giving the person a gun to kill the person. I would not be guilty > > of tricking the person into murder or even enticing them to murder > > the other person. Presumably that would be something they came up > > with all on their own. > > Montavilla47: > I really don't disagree with you. However, it's really more like giving > a person a gun if they want to play Russian roulette. And it's even more > like showing them the gun, holding it up to your temple, pulling the > trigger so that they see that the gun isn't going to go off, and then > neglecting to tell them that the bullet is in the next chamber. :) > > Or neglecting to tell them that you have a bullet-proof plate in > your head. :) Magpie: I'd make a slight adjustment there. It's more like if the person had heard rumors that I played Russian roulette and then I gave them a gun. I still neglected to tell them that I had that metal plate in my head but I didn't go so far as to demonstrate anything or tell them it was safe at all. In fact, I wouldn't do that anyway because we hate each other, which is also why any ideas he had about how my own games went was speculation based on whatever information he got from a distance.:-) -m From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Nov 17 03:38:52 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 03:38:52 -0000 Subject: Prank WAS: Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184924 > Carol responds: > > However much severus may have wanted to verify his theory and find out > what the Marauders were up to and regardless of his reason or resasons > for wanting to do so, he could not have gotten past the Whomping > Willow had Sirius not told him how to do so--Here's how to get *into* > danger, in essence. But Severus could not have gotten out again > because he wasn't an Animagus--information which would have saved his > life had he known it because he would not have gone down there. > Instead, he had to be saved by James. Sirius would have let him die. > Potiocat: Is it canon that Severus knew the Marauders entered the tunnel? Do we know if he ever even saw Remus and Pomphrey go under the willow before that night? From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Nov 17 04:26:17 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 04:26:17 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184925 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/184889 > Magpie: > This is a different situation, though, because as a reader I do know > more than DD did--while at the same time I don't know exactly what DD > did know. He didn't know the Marauders were going out with Lupin and > didn't know they were Animagi. If all he knew was that Sirius told > Snape how to get in the willow...well, he's just dealing on a totally > different level. Does he assume all the boys even know Lupin is a ?? werewolf? Potioncat: Well, what I'm really playing at is to take a different look at the boys than what we tend to do. We're all judging them--and intentional or not, we judge with a bias. Let's try it from a position of neutral authority. A person that only knows the boys, not the men they will become. It's up to you to decide what the Headmaster might find out. [Does canon tell us if Severus saw Remus going to the willow before, or if he ever saw the Marauders going to the willow? I'm not sure he knew they went in.] As Potioncat the Reader, I think that the Marauders were planning an outing as usual and were on their way to the willow to join Remus when Sirius mentioned his conversation with Severus. James ran ahead to save Severus. So I'm placing Peter, Sirius, James and Severus in the office. Remus is still a werewolf in the Shack. I think this interview is happening within an hour of the event. I don??t think the boys were very quiet when they returned to the castle and a teacher discovered them. Sticking as close to canon as I can, here is what Headmistress Cat has determined at the end of the interview. James, Peter, and Sirius have learned the truth about Remus and know that he goes under the willow to the Shrieking Shack. They also know how to disarm the tree. It is unclear if they have gone into the tunnel themselves. Although the Gryffindor boys know not to go into the Shrieking Shack, and HM Cat knows the werewolf can't get into the tunnel, it's still too close for comfort. The Whomping Willow is a secondary system to keep the werewolf in. (as well as to keep others out.) There has been a long running feud between Severus and the other 4 boys. Severus has seen Remus go to the willow with Madam Pomfrey. He doesn't know where they are going. Sirius gave Severus the information about the knot and Severus used the information to follow Remus into the tunnel. James went in after Severus to prevent him from reaching the shack. HM Cat manages to get Sirius to admit he expected that Severus would use the information to enter the tunnel. HM Cat gets Severus to admit he suspected Remus was a werewolf. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/184892 Pippin: > One problem I have as hypothetical headmistress is that nobody is > going to tell me anything. The other is that I don't have a lot of > leverage to use against spoiled, wealthy James and independently > wealthy Sirius -- they're probably no more worried about being > expelled than Fred and George were. Potioncat: Right. And if you did have to expel the group--Remus and Severus would be the ones to suffer. Lack of OWLs or NEWTs would severely affect their potential to make a living. So a Head may prefer not to expel or threaten to expel any of the students for this event. As I played Headmistress Cat, and listened to what I imagined the Marauders would have told me---well, HM Cat ended up giving them points for loyalty and courage. Then Potioncat the Reader put an end to it. That's when I realized how much of my own bias about the boys was coming into play. Not that I think they deserved points, but that I think James and Sirius were very charming and good at spin. So, Headmistress Cat would remind the boys very firmly that each person is responsible for his own actions and the consequences of his actions. Therefore Sirius is being punished for telling anyone about the knot---he knows the tree is there for a reason.--and particularly since he expected Severus to use the information on this particularly dangerous night. Severus is being punished for going out of bounds, especially since he suspected the tunnel contained a werewolf. Now, it's obvious that Peter and James were also out of bounds, it's after hours and they were off school grounds. So they are also being punished. Since HM Cat may not find out about the escapades the Marauders have had, she may think Remus simply told them about the knot. So she will punish him for breaching that piece of security--reminding him how important it is that he is kept secure during the full moon. From lizzyben04 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 06:28:47 2008 From: lizzyben04 at yahoo.com (lizzyben04) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 06:28:47 -0000 Subject: Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184926 > zanooda: > > I remember once we had a discussion about this, and someone suggested > that Snape did it on purpose, because he wanted Harry to see the > memory to prove to him what a jerk his father was :-). I personally > never believed that Snape arranged the whole thing. The memory was so > humiliating that he wouldn't want anyone to see it, especially Harry. > He was mortified when he found out Harry saw it. So no, not on > purpose, IMO :-). I think it's just what Zara said, Snape expected to > be in the room the entire time, that's why he wasn't cautious enough. > lizzyben: Or maybe, subconsciously Snape WANTED Harry to see that memory, so he left it out for Harry to find. Sort of a Freudian slip. This is backed up by the fact that Snape shared the memory again when he had the chance, because he wanted Harry to understand his motives. I wonder if a part of Snape really wanted Harry to understand, all along. And I really wonder how Snape would've reacted if Harry said some of the things he said in the epilogue to him. It's one of the reasons I felt deprived by the lack of a Snape/Harry confrontation. All that potential drama was built-up & then evaporated. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 07:13:53 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 07:13:53 -0000 Subject: Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184927 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizzyben04" wrote: > > zanooda: > > I remember once we had a discussion about this, and someone > > suggested that Snape did it on purpose, because he wanted > > Harry to see the memory to prove to him what a jerk his father > > was :-). > lizzyben: > Or maybe, subconsciously Snape WANTED Harry to see that memory, so > he left it out for Harry to find. zanooda: OK, maybe, only if subconsciously :-). You see, I think that *consciously* Snape believed Harry was as much a jerk as his father, so he wouldn't expect him to understand. Snape would expect Harry to cheer and enjoy his humiliation, so there was no reason for him to want to show the memory. > lizzyben wrote: > And I really wonder how Snape would've reacted if Harry said > some of the things he said in the epilogue to him. It's one > of the reasons I felt deprived by the lack of a Snape/Harry > confrontation. zanooda: Me too :-)! I can't even say how much I hoped for Harry\Snape meeting ;-(. Alas, never happened ... From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Nov 17 13:14:41 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:14:41 -0000 Subject: Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184928 > lizzyben: > > Or maybe, subconsciously Snape WANTED Harry to see that memory, so he > left it out for Harry to find. Sort of a Freudian slip. This is > backed up by the fact that Snape shared the memory again when he had > the chance, because he wanted Harry to understand his motives. I > wonder if a part of Snape really wanted Harry to understand, all > along. Potioncat: Hmm, could be. The thing to remember, and I think you're touching on it, is that SWM isn't of the treatment by James, it's Snape's use of Mudblood. Many of us have presumed that Snape set aside three memories. But who knows how many memories can fit on a silver strand? I know my camera holds a heck of a lot of photos on an itty-bitty memory card. So there may have many of the same ones that we saw in DH. > lizzyben: > And I really wonder how Snape would've reacted if Harry said some of > the things he said in the epilogue to him. It's one of the reasons I > felt deprived by the lack of a Snape/Harry confrontation. All that > potential drama was built-up & then evaporated. Potioncat: And I might have liked to see a birthday party for Albus Severus that Snape would have attended. "Gee, Uncle Sev, thanks for the bezoar." From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Nov 17 20:25:49 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:25:49 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184929 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/184888 > Montavilla47: > My number one priority would be: Is Lupin still restrained or is he currently > running around loose? Because if he's loose, something needs to be done > lest he bite someone. > snip > As for this incident, I would probably conclude that there was rule- breaking > and bad behavior on both sides, but the main problem is the hostility between > four boys and one (with a special hostility between the boy who went > looking for the werewolf and the boy who told him how to find it.) I think I > would assign those two to some joint detentions--and make the detentions > so unpleasant that they can't help but bond over it. > > I wouldn't consider any of those involved for the position of Head Boy--not > unless I saw some very sincere contrition on their parts during sixth year. > ?? Montavilla47 Potioncat delivers a roll of parchment, sealed with wax and tied with a ribbon to Montavilla47: The Board of Governors for Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry is most impressed with your response to the HM for a Day challenge. You seem well qualified. We therefore are offering you the position of Head of Hogwarts, immediately. Your first act as HM will be to inform Professor Dumbledore that he no longer holds the position. The official reason is that he is so very over qualified that he could better serve our world in a different capacity. Professor Dumbledore is a pleasant, well-mannered wizard and is unlikely to turn you into a toad or other foul creature. If, however, we are mistaken, we will cover the costs of your stay in St. Mungo's. If necessary, send us notice by owl, as we will be far, far away. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/184893 > Alla: snip > > So here is my problem number one. > I have no idea if Peter is in my office. I mean, if he is, that is > only because he came to inform Gryffindor Head or myself of what just > happened, maybe James asked him to do so. However, what if Peter was > absent that whole night? Then he would have no reason to be in my ?? office and why would he be absent? Potioncat: I don't know that canon tells us what exactly went on that evening. But I'm guessing it was business as usual and all 3 boys were on their way to the Whomping Willow when Sirius mentioned his conversation with Severus. > Alla: > Now, interesting thing to me is does Sirius tell me that he told > Snape how to open the Shack? I always got the impression that > Dumbledore knew about it, so I should know too. Except, well, why > would Sirius want to report his own wrongdoing? I mean, I know how > Dumbledore may have learned that - legilimence him of course, but ?? what if he did not? Potioncat: I sort of ran into the same stumbling blocks. Just what would the different boys say, how much of the truth do they withhold and how many out-and-out lies do they tell---if any. Like you, I "think" DD knows it was Sirius who told Severus. I think the very fact that James had to rescue Severus made it hard to cover up some other facts. Pippin's probably right, the boys as a whole---all of them--are going to be fairly tight lipped. This exercise is when I realized DD must not have learned that the boys went into the tunnel. But you know he really should have created another security measure for the tunnel's entrance. He knew the code was broken. Alla: > > What do I feel about the boys? I feel that they are all idiots and > deserve a good smack and many many detentions to serve **together**. > > Do I believe them? Oy wey, I know about them being enemies, but > whether I believe them depends on how much they are actually spelling ?? out for me. Potioncat: So here is where I am a bit confused. Are we all saying that we think Sirius and Severus were at fault? Because it seems at times there are efforts to relieve blame for one or the other. > Alla: > Oh HECK, wait a second. If I am Legilimens, how is it that I did not ?? see that boys are animagi????? Potioncat: Even after DH, we expect DD to be perfect, or at least to be a super- hero. Do we really "know" he's a Legilimens? He may be very astute at reading people. But, given his pathological tendency to keep secrets, if he is a Legilimens, he may choose to not act on information he's gathered by Legilimency. However, HM Alla, if you are a Legilimens, you may act upon the information. So long as the information you gather is supported by canon. Alla: > Lovely game Potioncat, but so hard. I will be back. Potioncat; Thanks! Yes, I found it more difficult than I expected too. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 21:05:06 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:05:06 -0000 Subject: Snape / Theo / Peter Peter Death Eater / Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184930 Carol earlier: > > << Even Sirius doesn't know as of his own arrest just after Godric's Hollow (and doesn't find out in prison, either) that Snape became a DE. >> Catlady responded: > Why didn't he find out in prison? Snape was an open Death Eater, known to other Death Eaters like Karkaroff, while Peter was a secret Death Eater, not known to the other Death Eaters, and Sirius heard Death Eaters screaming in their nightmares about Peter being a Light Side agent who led LV into a trap. So why didn't he hear about Snape? > > I can never get the logic of this part, anyway. If Peter was secret, how did the imprisoned DEs know to scream against him? I believe it was Pippin who suggested that the only one he heard screaming about Peter was Bellatrix, at least until the others picked it up from her, and Bellatrix can be more knowledgeable than the average Death Eater. Carol responds: That was me though Pippin may also have suggested it. I think that Bellatrix would be raging, but Barty Jr. would be whimpering in fear of the Dementors, concerned only with his own skin. Neither of the Lestrange brothers spoke during their sentencing. They seem already resigned to their fate, or maybe too stolid and stupid to speak up for themselves. My own view is that no one but Bellatrix and maybe her three cronies knew about Wormtail being the spy and that any DE brought in to Azkaban stopped screaming and protesting very quickly because of the Dementors. Some probably went mad or died if the tales Sirius and Hagrid tell are true. At any rate, whatever the explanation, Sirius didn't find out about Snape. No one involved was concerned about him, apparently. They weren't screaming about Lucius Malfoy pleading the Imperius Curse, either. Catlady: > Is it canon that James dragged Severus out of the tunnel? I have a vision of James sending Severus out while James remained to slow down Moony (in Prongs form), but he wanted Severous *gone* before he transformed and Severus refused to be such a coward as to run away leaving someone behind, and James desperately saying that he knew a secret defense against this werewolf that Severus didn't know seemed to Severus to be a lie. So I guess James levitated Severus, maybe put Full Body Bind on him, and Mobilicorpus'ed him from the tunnel, which also would be pretty humiliating. Carol responds: No canon whatever. My own view is that he Stunned Severus and kind of slung him over his back as he transformed so that he carried Severus out in Animagus form without Severus knowing what happened. There's no way that James could have survived himself without transforming, and no way he would have done so in front of Severus. Whatever he did, I'm sure it wasn't grabbing him by the arm and yelling "Run!" but, yeah, whatever he did was humiliating, if only because being rescued by James was humiliating in itself. No wonder he was furious and humiliated by *Lily's* attempt to rescue him a few days later! Carol, who thinks that JKR deliberately left the details vague so that we can all imagine them for ourselves From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 21:42:31 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:42:31 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184931 Potioncat: > Potioncat delivers a roll of parchment, sealed with wax and tied with > a ribbon to Montavilla47: > > The Board of Governors for Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry > is most impressed with your response to the HM for a Day challenge. > You seem well qualified. We therefore are offering you the position > of Head of Hogwarts, immediately. Your first act as HM will be to > inform Professor Dumbledore that he no longer holds the position. The > official reason is that he is so very over qualified that he could > better serve our world in a different capacity. > > Professor Dumbledore is a pleasant, well-mannered wizard and is > unlikely to turn you into a toad or other foul creature. If, however, > we are mistaken, we will cover the costs of your stay in St. Mungo's. > If necessary, send us notice by owl, as we will be far, far away. Montavilla47: Hehe! I benefited from having tried to imagine the scene in Dumbledore's office for a story (that later added up to be a chapter in a longer work). I remember spending a lot of time trying to figure out how the whole Animagi-werewolf thing worked, too. For example, I tried (and rejected) the idea that Snape followed the three Marauders down the tunnel and overhears a few snippets of conversation where they are planning their night's adventure before Sirius casually mentions his "joke" on Snape. I ended up with something else, but I did imagine that there *was* a further restraint on Lupin, which was a door leading into the shack from the tunnel--with a padlock on it. And yes, Snape was dumb enough to go through the door. I also imagined, just for the sake of logistics, that the Animagi usually released Lupin on the *Hogsmeade* side of the shack. Just couldn't see Prongs going through that tunnel without getting his antlers tangled in roots and such. > Potioncat: > This exercise is when I realized DD must not have learned that the > boys went into the tunnel. But you know he really should have created > another security measure for the tunnel's entrance. He knew the code > was broken. Montavilla47: I can't help wondering why Dumbledore would think the willow branches would be enough in the first place. Lupin spent his nights biting and mauling himself. Would he really have been deterred from leaving the tunnel because of a few waving branches? > Alla: > > > > What do I feel about the boys? I feel that they are all idiots and > > deserve a good smack and many many detentions to serve **together**. > > > > Do I believe them? Oy wey, I know about them being enemies, but > > whether I believe them depends on how much they are actually > spelling > ?? out for me. > > > Potioncat: > So here is where I am a bit confused. Are we all saying that we think > Sirius and Severus were at fault? Because it seems at times there are > efforts to relieve blame for one or the other. Montavilla47: I think we're all much closer than it seems. I don't think anyone is denying that Snape was stupid. The difference seems to be one of degrees. Was he just "stupid" or "suicidally stupid"? And, if he was suicidally stupid, does that mean he bears most of the blame for what happened? On the other hand, was Sirius "stupid" or "murderously stupid"? And, even if he was hoping that Snape would go into the tunnel, does that mean he bears most of the blame for what happened? I think the real question we're wrangling over is this one: Was Sirius right when he said Snape "deserved it"? From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 17 23:15:16 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 23:15:16 -0000 Subject: Snape / Theo / Peter Peter Death Eater / Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184932 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Is it canon that James dragged Severus out of the tunnel? zanooda: Well, the book says that James "pulled him back". I don't know if this involves dragging or not :-). The book also says that Severus glimpsed the werewolf "at the end of the tunnel". I've always imagined it like this: Snape was already close enough to the opening leading into the Shack to see inside, when James caught up with him and "pulled him back", whatever it means. However, Snape caught a glimpse of the transformed Lupin inside the Shack through the opening. The werewolf probably didn't notice the boys, because otherwise he would have caught up with them in the tunnel before they could reach the Willow and turn it on :-). I don't think James could transform inside the tunnel, which is usually described as very narrow. BTW, the width of the tunnel is a puzzle to me. In DH the Trio has to crawl inside it on their hands and knees, but in PoA grown-ups Lupin and Sirius don't have to crawl to get out of the Shack. Did the tunnel shrink :-)? From jkoney65 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 18 01:15:29 2008 From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 01:15:29 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184933 > Montavilla47: > I think we're all much closer than it seems. > > I don't think anyone is denying that Snape was stupid. The difference > seems to be one of degrees. Was he just "stupid" or "suicidally stupid"? > And, if he was suicidally stupid, does that mean he bears most of the > blame for what happened? > > On the other hand, was Sirius "stupid" or "murderously stupid"? And, > even if he was hoping that Snape would go into the tunnel, does that > mean he bears most of the blame for what happened? > > I think the real question we're wrangling over is this one: Was > Sirius right when he said Snape "deserved it"? > jkoney I definitely agree with your summary of the discussion. "Deserved it" It depends on the point of view taken. Most people wouldn't think that Snape "deserved it" for trying to get the boys in trouble. Sirius on the other would believe it. If we think about the character, he isn't the golden boy poster of a Gryffendor. He may be brave and courageous but he was raised in a slytherin household. Some of those views would have stuck with him. Getting back at someone doing something to you, wouldn't be met with an even return. Sirius would want to up the ante. So in his mind Snape deserved it because he was trying to get them in trouble. From lizzyben04 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 18 02:02:55 2008 From: lizzyben04 at yahoo.com (lizzyben04) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 02:02:55 -0000 Subject: Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184934 > > > zanooda: > > OK, maybe, only if subconsciously :-). You see, I think that > *consciously* Snape believed Harry was as much a jerk as his father, > so he wouldn't expect him to understand. Snape would expect Harry to > cheer and enjoy his humiliation, so there was no reason for him to > want to show the memory. lizzyben: Yep, probably, but I still wonder. By this point in the story, Snape has seen some of Harry's childhood memories. So he knows that Harry hasn't had the same spoiled, coddled existence that James did, and that Harry has also experienced being bullied & powerless. Right there, he knows that Harry isn't the same as James. Snape prefers to see Harry=James because that's emotionally convenient for him, but a part of him would have to know that that isn't true. Someone said on-list that the Occlumency lessons created empathy between them (though not sympathy.) In the sense that both recognize that they have had similar childhood experiences. And it's at that point that Snape inadvertently shares SWM. I think maybe the small emotionally-healthy part of Snape wanted to be forgiven by Harry. Because that's the only way he would ever be able to heal & forgive himself. And in DH, we know that Harry did eventually forgive him, based on those very same memories. Potioncat: And I might have liked to see a birthday party for Albus Severus that Snape would have attended. "Gee, Uncle Sev, thanks for the bezoar." lizzyben: Aww, that'd be kind of sweet, though improbable. magpie: But regardless the only way Sirius got involved was to give Snape information on how to get into the willow. Snape's decision to go into the willow was actually pretty well-informed. He knew the dangerous creature concealed inside. He didn't know what form or protection he would need or would use against him, it seems, but he knew he didn't know that. lizzyben: I totally agree. Snape knew, more or less, what he'd be getting into there. It wasn't a "prank" in the sense that Snape wasn't being tricked or fooled into entering a dangerous/humiliating situation. Maybe he thought the werewolf was restrained, but I tend to think he wasn't thinking that far ahead either way. Teenage boys aren't known for their foresight or catiousness, and both Sirius & Snape were being pretty typical reckless teenagers. IMO Snape's rage on the subject seems to be less about Sirius' actions & more about the consequences. He'd set out to prove to Lily that James was no good & only ending up proving to her that James was a heroic rescuer! And made himself look like weak & "ungrateful" in the process. LOL. Fail. That was the real turning point in the James/Lily relationship; it was all downhill for Snape from there. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Nov 18 12:30:54 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:30:54 -0000 Subject: Snape / Theo / Peter Peter Death Eater / Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184935 > zanooda: > The werewolf probably didn't notice the boys, because otherwise he > would have caught up with them in the tunnel before they could reach > the Willow and turn it on :-). Potioncat: I don't think the werewolf can get out of the Shrieking Shack without the help of his friends. I recall Sirius as a dog opening a door, but maybe that was in OoP. Lupin's wording in PoA is that the willow was planted to keep anyone from getting to him. So the problem would have been if Snape had entered the shack. I think James stayed human which is what made the risk so great. But again, if the werewolf couldn't get to them, the big danger was over. By the same token, if Snape saw the werewolf before he got too close. He wouldn't go in, and James didn't really save his life. So James must have pulled him away and the noise attracted the werewolf who came to the entrance to investigate. zanooda: I don't think James could transform > inside the tunnel, which is usually described as very narrow. BTW, > the width of the tunnel is a puzzle to me. In DH the Trio has to > crawl inside it on their hands and knees, but in PoA grown-ups Lupin > and Sirius don't have to crawl to get out of the Shack. Did the > tunnel shrink :-)? Potioncat: The tunnel must change size much like the castle staircases and halls that don't always go to the same place every day. Because, as you said, JKR describes it differently in the two books. Many of us have wondered how the Marauders got out for their escapades. James's stag wouldn't have been able to go to the Shack or out of it via the tunnel. Perhaps a detail JKR never considered. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 18 18:56:58 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:56:58 -0000 Subject: Snape / Theo / Peter Peter Death Eater / Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > I don't think the werewolf can get out of the Shrieking Shack > without the help of his friends. zanooda: Yes, but he can move inside the tunnel, why not? He can't get out of the tunnel by himself because of the Willow, but if he saw the boys there, he could easily catch up with them (he has four legs and the tunnel is long) and attack them before they reached the Willow. That's why I think the danger was real. > potioncat wrote: > Many of us have wondered how the Marauders got out for their > escapades. James's stag wouldn't have been able to go to the Shack > or out of it via the tunnel. Perhaps a detail JKR never considered. zanooda: Maybe the dog and the rat went inside to get the werewolf, and the stag stayed and waited for them outside :-). From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Nov 18 20:15:44 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:15:44 -0000 Subject: Snape / Theo / Peter Peter Death Eater / Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184937 > zanooda: > > Yes, but he can move inside the tunnel, why not? He can't get out of > the tunnel by himself because of the Willow, but if he saw the boys > there, he could easily catch up with them (he has four legs and the > tunnel is long) and attack them before they reached the Willow. > That's why I think the danger was real. potioncat: But that's just it, I don't think the werewolf can get out of the Shrieking Shack into the tunnel by himself. And if he could, I don't think the boys (James and Severus) could have outrun him, unless James used some magic to block the tunnel as they went. From irenem316 at comcast.net Tue Nov 18 17:00:55 2008 From: irenem316 at comcast.net (irenematt02176) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:00:55 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184938 > > Discussion Questions: > > 1. Why do you think that JKR (or the narrator) refers to Snape > as "the Prince" here and in "The Flight of the Prince" in HBP? I think when Harry realized that Snape was the HBP of the potion book, he saw a whole other side to Snape - someone who taught Harry more than all of the teachers at Hogwarts combined. The same thing happened here - when Harry watched the memories he got to see the side of Snape that was capable of great love, sacrifice, pain, and bravery - things he would never have believed of Snape, especially after watching him kill Dumbledore. > > 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of [their] > dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the > Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you > think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead? I think Voldemort is doing a couple of things here - 1) he wants Harry to realize how many have died "for him" as an incentive to get Harry to give himself up; and 2) it's part of Voldy's political 'spin' - being the 'benevolent lord' in allowing them time to remove their dead from the field, saying 'see, I'm the one who cares about you, who will protect you and keep you safe if you do what I want. Potter, on the other hand, hides behind all of you and lets you die.' It's the same big pile of lies he's been feeding the WW since he took over the MOM and the Prophet. He couldn't care less about any of the dead - those fighting for him or against him. > > 3. Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking, > apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." This > description seems to echo that of the dead Dumbledore in HBP-- > "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his arms > and legs, he might have been sleeping"?and that of his peacefully > sleeping portrait. What do you think JKR is saying about death > through these descriptions? Do they seem to refer to death in general > or only to these particular deaths? Tonks and Lupin (and Doby and Dumbledore and Fred, etc) died for a noble cause and are now at peace. > > 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway > leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think > the password changed and who or what changed it? I'm sure Snape changed it - I think he wanted and needed Dumbledore almost as much as Harry did. I'm also guessing that the non-DE teachers probably refused to go to the Headmaster's office, or were not allowed to by Snape, and the DEs would think it's a good joke. > > 7. Since Lily has no way of knowing about prejudice against Muggle- > borns in the WW, why do you think she's worried that being a Muggle- > born might "make a difference"? Given Severus's remark that Lily can > do "loads" of magic, might the two children be talking about magical > ability rather than prejudice against Muggle-borns? If not, why would > he make that remark in that context? I think 11 year old Lily was worried about the same things that 11 year old Harry was worried about when he first went to Hogwarts - the fear of the unknown, the fear of being different, the fear of being less experienced than the majority of the students who had grown up in that world. What was really telling about this scene was Snape claiming that it didn't make a difference. He was trying to reassure her, but he might also have been trying to make sure that she didn't get scared and decide not to go to Hogwarts > > 8. Severus tells Lily that only wizards who "do really bad stuff" are > sent to Azkaban. What does this remark reveal about his sense of good > and evil and age nine or ten? That it's normal. He hasn't really been corrupted by the DE crowd yet. > > 10. Why does Petunia call Lily a "freak" (the same word that she uses > in SS/PS some twenty years later)? What justification, if any, do you > see for her view that sending "weirdos" like Lily and Severus to > Hogwarts will protect the "normal people"? Do you see any connection > with the Statute of Secrecy? Petunia sees her sister going off on a new and exciting adventure that Petunia isn't 'good enough' for. Petunia also sees her parents' reaction to the news, which is very positve towards Lily. Petunia must have wanted to go to Hogwarts really badly to have actually written to Dumbledore and ask to be admitted. She is jealous, disappointed, hurt, angry and probably very sad to be losing her sister. One way to deal with those feelings it to attack the thing we really want to convince ourselves that we are better off the way we are. This is a defense mechanism that Petunia has been utilizing her whole life, and which makes her attitude toward Harry make more sense - though there is no excuse for the abuse Harry suffered. > > 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier > onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)? It never occurred to me that Muggle parents would not be able to get onto the platform. I'm willing to bet that when the representative from Hogwarts visits the parents of muggleborns, they are told exactly how to get onto the platform, and are even given a tour of the school. As a parent, I would not send my 11 year old off to a place I'd never seen. We would not have seen this in the story because this was not part of Harry's reality and really isn't important to the progression of the plot. > > 12. James's words, "Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, > wouldn't you?" mirror Draco's words about Hufflepuff in SS/PS. What > do you think that JKR is saying here about James and Draco or House > prejudice in general? And what's your reaction to James's imaginary > Sword of Gryffindor, raised in defense of chivalry? Well, House loyality and, therefore, prejudice, is alive and well, always has been, always will be except in extreme circumstances, such as the Battle for Hogwarts where no one was sitting according to House. Mirroring Draco and James was more, I think, about the way they had been raised then anything else. They were both the only children of doting, wealthy parents, well loved and adored talking to two of the 'lost boys', Harry and Snape. > > 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya, > Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think so? Because we are dealing with the beginnings of 'group think' here with James and his Marauders - it wasn't said by an individual, it was said by the group. > > 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting > Severus's back? Why include that detail? He's been accepted - I think it's predictive of what happens later - Snape finds acceptance for the first time (except for Lily), so he's going to follow where ever they lead to protect that. Note that the only thing that could cause Snape to break from this tribe is a threat to Lily. > > 15. Lily's version of the so-called Prank?Severus "sneaking" around > the Shrieking Shack and being saved by James from "whatever's down > there" sounds a lot like Sirius's version in PoA except that everyone > in the PoA scene knows what's down there. Do you think that Sirius is > Lily's source? Why or why not? Why do you think she rejects > Severus's "theory" (obviously, that Lupin is a werewolf)? I think Sirius is Lily's source - James 'fancies' her, and Lily and Snape are friends, so Sirius is trying to build James up and tear Snape down so Lily will like his friend - it's very adolescent, but then, they are adolescents. I also think Lily does not want to believe that her friend Lupin is a werewolf, especially considering the prejudice and fear of werewolves. > > 16. Aside from not wanting to repeat a nine-page scene in detail, why > do you think JKR condenses Snape's worst memory to a single > paragraph? Is the tactic effective? (The relevant paragraph is on > page 675 of the Scholastic edition and page 542 of the Bloomsbury > edition.) Note especially the last line, "Distantly, he heard Snape > shout at her in his humiliation and his fury, the unforgivable word: > Mudblood." I think it's very effective - it shows how upsetting this really was to Harry, but it also focuses our attention on what is important in that memory - Snape's use of the word 'mudblood' and, as we learn in the next memory, how that affected his relationship with Lily. > > > 19. We get only a few hints of what Harry is feeling as he witnesses > these scenes, and yet he goes from hating Snape and wanting revenge > against him to publicly defending him and ultimately naming his > second son after him and Dumbledore. Aside from the shock of Snape's > death, which scenes do you feel had the most impact on Harry's change > of heart and why? I think the one where Snape produced the Doe Patronus said it all to Harry. > > 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter? > Why did *Snape* choose them? JKR and Snape both realized that Harry really needed to understand the history of Snape's relationship with Lily and how it ended, and what happened between Snape and Dumbledore - he had to see all of that to understand and believe Snape, and to accept the information that Snape needed to give Harry. I think that Snape had those memories front and center for ages, and was probably planning on showing them to Harry no matter when he told him about the scar. Great job Carol - thank you. Irene From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 18 23:59:43 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:59:43 -0000 Subject: Snape / Theo / Peter Peter Death Eater / Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184939 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > But that's just it, I don't think the werewolf can get out of the > Shrieking Shack into the tunnel by himself. zanooda: Why not :-)? There is no door, just a hole in the wall :-). And if he was somehow magically restrained inside the Shack, then why does Lupin say that James pulled Snape back with a "great risk to his life" :-)? > potioncat wrote: > And if he could, I don't think the boys (James and Severus) > could have outrun him, unless James used some magic to block > the tunnel as they went. zanooda: Exactly, that's why I was saying that maybe the werewolf didn't notice them :-). From juli17 at aol.com Wed Nov 19 02:21:58 2008 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:21:58 EST Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184940 In a message dated 11/18/2008 4:25:04 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com writes: jkoney I definitely agree with your summary of the discussion. "Deserved it" It depends on the point of view taken. Most people wouldn't think that Snape "deserved it" for trying to get the boys in trouble. Sirius on the other would believe it. If we think about the character, he isn't the golden boy poster of a Gryffendor. He may be brave and courageous but he was raised in a slytherin household. Some of those views would have stuck with him. Getting back at someone doing something to you, wouldn't be met with an even return. Sirius would want to up the ante. So in his mind Snape deserved it because he was trying to get them in trouble. Julie: I agree the real difference is point of view. E.g. Snape views the Prank from what *might* have happened--"Your mangy dogfather tried to murder me!", while Sirius views the Prank from what *did* happen--"Snivellus deserved it; I'm glad he wet his pants-twice!" And they are both right. Maybe Snape did deserve to get a scare for his continual nosiness, but he didn't deserve to get a scare that might have become his mutilation or death if James hadn't intervened. That's why I don't think Snape has ever lied about Sirius's motivations, because it is what Snape honestly BELIEVES--that Sirius tried to kill him, since it might well have turned out that way. Equally I think when Sirius claims Snape deserved it, he means Snape deserved what he actually got, not that Sirius thinks Snape deserved to die in the Prank. Both are affected by some serious prejudice when it comes to anything involving the other. Or maybe in general, as both look at Harry from equally biased perspectives, always seeing or expecting to see James, whether it is heroic, fun-loving James, or arrogant, rule-breaking James. One thing is sure; the Prank colored Snape and the Mauraders feelings for each other forevermore. Julie, who still has difficulty picturing the events in Snape's Worst Memory occurring after the Prank rather than before, as it just seemed so much more logical the other way. **************Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news & more!(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212774565x1200812037/aol?redir=htt p://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 19 02:40:08 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 02:40:08 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184941 > Julie: >> And they are both right. Maybe Snape did deserve to get a scare for his > continual > nosiness, but he didn't deserve to get a scare that might have become his > mutilation > or death if James hadn't intervened. That's why I don't think Snape has ever > lied about > Sirius's motivations, because it is what Snape honestly BELIEVES-- that > Sirius tried > to kill him, since it might well have turned out that way. Alla: And I am still missing something. I do not see after book 7 how Snape could honestly believe that Sirius tried to kill him, unless Snape majorly hypnotised himself. Of course it may have turned out that way. Except not without Snape going there. Again, I am holding Sirius' responsible here, sorry to sound like a parrot, just for his own actions. Julie: >Equally I think > when Sirius > claims Snape deserved it, he means Snape deserved what he actually got, not > that > Sirius thinks Snape deserved to die in the Prank. Alla: Could be, or it could be that Sirius actually thought that Snape deserved to die in the Shack and I am a huge Sirius' fan for those who do not know lol. I just do not think that Sirius telling Snape how to get there equals Sirius tried to kill Snape. Snape still went on his own. Sirius is hugely responsible for telling the secret, just not for Snape going IMO. Julie: Both are affected by some > serious > prejudice when it comes to anything involving the other. Alla: Of course they are. JMO, Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Nov 19 03:28:55 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:28:55 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184942 > Alla: > > And I am still missing something. I do not see after book 7 how Snape > could honestly believe that Sirius tried to kill him, unless Snape > majorly hypnotised himself. Of course it may have turned out that > way. Except not without Snape going there. Again, I am holding > Sirius' responsible here, sorry to sound like a parrot, just for his > own actions. Potioncat: Because Snape feels that Sirius's motivation in telling the secret of the knot, was to get Severus killed. Most of us don't think Sirius thought it out that much. But Snape does think that. Sirius thinks Snape's motivation for going in was to get the Marauders--or at least Remus--into trouble. Many of us think Severus had another motivation too. But as far as this goes, neither Black nor Snape grew up. And neither thinks back on what idiot boys they were. > Alla: > > Could be, or it could be that Sirius actually thought that Snape > deserved to die in the Shack and I am a huge Sirius' fan for those > who do not know lol. I just do not think that Sirius telling Snape > how to get there equals Sirius tried to kill Snape. Potioncat: It's probably too late for me to be reading posts, but I'll ask anyway. You don't mean, you think Sirius "did" think Severus deserved to die, do you?--you don't mean it really was his intention?---I mean, even most of us who don't like Black don't think he really intended Snape to die. Alla: Snape still went > on his own. Sirius is hugely responsible for telling the secret, > just not for Snape going IMO. Potioncat: That right. Both boys have an equal share of responsibility for the danger Snape faced. In our area there was a situation in which some teens/young adults stole a stop sign. Shortly afterwards, a driver did not stop--because there was no sign-- and was broadsided in the intersection. He died. The kids who removed the stop sign were sent to jail for the death. They didn't intend for anyone to get hurt. They just wanted a stop sign. You are responsible for the consequences of your actions. Snape is responsible for Lily's death, even though he didn't intend it, and tried to prevent it. Sirius would have been responsible for Snape's death if the werewolf had gotten to him. Of course, Snape would also share the responsibility for it, but he would be dead. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Nov 19 03:46:47 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:46:47 -0000 Subject: Snape / Theo / Peter Peter Death Eater / Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184943 > > zanooda: > > Why not :-)? There is no door, just a hole in the wall :-). And if he was somehow magically restrained inside the Shack, then why does > Lupin say that James pulled Snape back with a "great risk to his > life" :-)? > Pippin: You see, even we find it hard to convince ourselves that the werewolf would be loose. How could it be? It would wander down to the Hogwarts end and kick up the same unholy racket that had the villagers so terrified. Apparently Snape had to get most of the way to the shack before the werewolf came after him. But how could it come after him if it was locked up? My personal solution is that the werewolf, being magically driven to attack humans, normally stayed in the shack because it sensed the villagers nearby. Its own magic would keep it where the scent of prey was close. We know Lupin's mind became less wolfish when the Animagi were present, which would allow Sirius and Peter to guide him down the tunnel and out onto the Hogwarts grounds without commotion. But otherwise, Lupin would stay put, safely inside the shack which, AFAWK, no wizard but Voldemort would ever succeed in opening from the Hogsmeade side. It's the sort of thing that would appeal to Dumbledore, allowing for the wolf to be confined while the human's dignity was respected, trusting Lupin to remain willingly in the shack until the transformation began, and leaving him free to depart when it was over. Only if a human were so rash as to enter the tunnel during full moon and travel far enough to attract the werewolf would there be danger. The willow was supposed to prevent that -- but once Snape (and James) got close enough to the werewolf, it would come after them. > > potioncat wrote: > > > And if he could, I don't think the boys (James and Severus) > > could have outrun him, unless James used some magic to block > > the tunnel as they went. > Pippin: Unless James, that big Quidditch hero, brought his broom. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 19 03:47:49 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 03:47:49 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184944 > Potioncat: > Because Snape feels that Sirius's motivation in telling the secret of > the knot, was to get Severus killed. Most of us don't think Sirius > thought it out that much. But Snape does think that. Alla: Maybe we will finally get to the crux of the matter for me. So, here is the follow up question. How can **anybody** think that if somebody gives them the information, dangerous information to be sure, but information how to get to the place where I want to go myself, is planning on killing them. Meaning, that no matter what that other person gives me, without **me going** their plans are **not going to happen**, ever. So, I think I would be biggest hyppocrite on earth if I would dare to say that other person tried to get me killed. Does it make sense? >Potioncat: > But as far as this goes, neither Black nor Snape grew up. And neither > thinks back on what idiot boys they were. Alla: Yes. > Potioncat: > It's probably too late for me to be reading posts, but I'll ask > anyway. You don't mean, you think Sirius "did" think Severus deserved > to die, do you?--you don't mean it really was his intention?---I > mean, even most of us who don't like Black don't think he really > intended Snape to die. Alla: Ah but you see, but I fully accept the existance of such possibilities, me who loves Sirius' character dearly. See, as I said before I think that after book 7 we can never say for sure whether he wanted Snape to die or not. Do I believe it? NO, I do not. Do I think it is possible? Sure, I do. It will not make me like the character any less, you know, if we would have known for sure that he wanted Snape dead. That is why I just cannot figure out where people see me absolving Sirius' of responsibility, because intent wise, now, I think that murderous intent cannot be disproved either. But no matter what he may have wanted to happen to Snape and no matter what secrets he gave to Snape, Snape still went and Sirius as far as I am concerned, did not trick him to go, did not plan to kill him, he foolishly gave him an information that he would not supposed to. I am sure he had some idea that Snape may have want to use it, but as far as I am concerned he had no way of **making Snape to use it**, Snape and only Snape did that IMO. > > Alla: > Snape still went > > on his own. Sirius is hugely responsible for telling the secret, > > just not for Snape going IMO. > > Potioncat: > That right. Both boys have an equal share of responsibility for the > danger Snape faced. Alla: Absolutely, listen maybe I am just arguing semantics, my thing in Prank is Sirius tricking Snape and making him to go to the Shack, that makes me object strenuously. But I certainly do not think that Sirius is not responsible or anything. And just an aside to Montavilla (I think), no issue whether Snape deserved it or not is not crucial for me at all. Nobody **deserves** being bitten or eaten by werewolf, not even Snape (although boy, when I am looking from within the story, boy I cannot help but think how Potters could have been safe and sound, but whatever). But also I do not think that Sirius deserves in my mind to be called somebody who tricked Snape to go. And neither I am agreeing with dear Snape he tried to kill me anymore. Potioncat: > You are responsible for the consequences of your actions. > Snape is responsible for Lily's death, even though he didn't intend > it, and tried to prevent it. Sirius would have been responsible for > Snape's death if the werewolf had gotten to him. Of course, Snape > would also share the responsibility for it, but he would be dead. Alla: Of course, absolutely, without any question Sirius could have some responsibility for Snape being dead. Although if I imagine legal proceedings, I somehow think that even Snape being dead, if what he did will be proven, Sirius' responsibility will still not be that huge. But morally, sure, he will be hugely responsible. JMO, Alla From leahstill at hotmail.com Wed Nov 19 09:12:33 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:12:33 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184945 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Alla: > > Maybe we will finally get to the crux of the matter for me. So, here > is the follow up question. How can **anybody** think that if somebody > gives them the information, dangerous information to be sure, but > information how to get to the place where I want to go myself, is > planning on killing them. Meaning, that no matter what that other > person gives me, without **me going** their plans are **not going to > happen**, ever. So, I think I would be biggest hyppocrite on earth if > I would dare to say that other person tried to get me killed. Does it > make sense? Leah: Honestly, no. You tell me that you really want to go to Placeville. I tell you that the way lies across that field. Unfortunately, I really dislike you and have forgotten to tell you that the field has been planted with landmines. You decide not to go to Placeville after all, or someone tells you about the landmines, or drags you out of the field. So my plan fails, but wouldn't you say that I intended to kill you? (That's setting aside whether you should have known about landmines etc etc). Leah From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Wed Nov 19 12:04:07 2008 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:04:07 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184946 Alla: > > Maybe we will finally get to the crux of the matter for me. So, here > is the follow up question. How can **anybody** think that if somebody > gives them the information, dangerous information to be sure, but > information how to get to the place where I want to go myself, is > planning on killing them. Meaning, that no matter what that other > person gives me, without **me going** their plans are **not going to > happen**, ever. So, I think I would be biggest hyppocrite on earth if > I would dare to say that other person tried to get me killed. Does it > make sense? Ceridwen: I guess I'll join the parade of "for examples." I do like the landmine one, though. We know that Snape saw Madam Pomphrey take Remus to the willow. We know that Snape suspects Remus is a werewolf. I think we can extend that to a safe assumption that Snape also saw the Marauders enter the tunnel after Madam Pomphrey left, then saw them alive and well in school the next day. This can do one of two things - either Snape will doubt that Remus is indeed a werewolf, thereby wanting proof one way or the other all the more, or Snape will assume that there are protective measures in place that protect the Marauders. Snape does well in DADA. Shortly after the Prank we see him writing reams on his DADA exam. He will know that a werewolf cannot differentiate between friend and foe during transformations and so will assume that either a) he is wrong or b) there are safeguards in place. To give my own example, suppose there is a tunnel near enough to your house that you can see its entrance if you sit at a particular window. You suspect there is methane in the tunnel. This makes you nervous - methane is highly flammable and explosive. You want to know about this because you don't want to die in a fiery explosion. You don't want your friends to die. You see workers entering the tunnel at certain times (Madam Pomphrey), but as city workers you assume they have safety equipment. When these workers leave for the day, another group of local people (Marauders) come along and enter the tunnel. You may see them leave it later, or you may see them the next day alive and well and suffering no ill effects from methane poisoning. You know there is a gate, you know the city workers probably have a key, but you know these people are not city workers. You want to know what is happening down there. One of these local people, someone you don't care for and you know doesn't care for you, tells you there is an uneven space near the gate latch which allows them to push through without using a key. He tells you that you will find the answers to your questions if you go through on the second Thursday or third Friday of the month. You have no reason to believe this person wishes you well, but you have seen with your own eyes that this person and his friends have gone into this tunnel numerous times and return with no ill effects. You are concerned enough about a possible methane leak that you decide to see for yourself. You want to sleep well at night. You don't want to worry about your own survival or that of your friends. You believe you are good enough at holding your breath that, if you smell the governor in the gas, you can safely get out. You have seen that people just like you are able to enter and leave the tunnel without ill effects. You want to know if there is a dangerous methane leak. You enter the tunnel and get through the gate. The information is correct so far. Perhaps this person has set aside his animosity for you because of the greater good for the neighborhood over this possible leak, or at least out of compassion for your sleepless nights. You continue down the tunnel until you go down a steep incline and reach a depression. The depression is filled with methane. It has no governor smell since it is a natural leak. You begin to succumb. Suddenly, one of the other people who go into the tunnel after-hours grabs your arm and drags you out. You see there are tubes around his ears, but later you think this was a methane-induced hallucination (he has a portable air system - mundane analogy to the animagi form). You believe the person who told you how to get into the tunnel meant for you to die in the methane pit. He didn't, or so he says, he just thought you deserved it for being nosey. Since you cannot believe him about the tunnel any more, you also cannot believe that he never meant for you to die. You continue to hold this belief. You do not believe you did anything wrong, in fact you have discovered that there is a dangerous methane leak and have complained to your local government. However, the government tells you the leak is under control by funneling into this pit. (really, they're nuts, but hey, it's an imperfect example) They are working on a solution which will both cap the methane well and benefit the city by selling this methane for revenue. You are cajoled, intimidated, outright threatened, to keep the secret "for the greater good." You can say nothing. You signed forms in triplicate. However, the person who pulled you out can still brag that he saved you from "whatever is down there." You're the hero, but you're sworn to secrecy and the city will never admit there was an *open* pit of methane under the street so you will always be the victim while your rescuer will always be the hero. Other than that, I'm one of the ones who doubt Sirius wanted Snape to die but instead wanted him to soil himself and learn a lesson about snooping on other people. I could be wrong, though, so I agree with you that there is no indication one way or another that this is what Sirius intended. Ceridwen. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 19 14:17:30 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:17:30 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184947 >> Leah: Honestly, no. You tell me that you really want to go to > Placeville. I tell you that the way lies across that field. > Unfortunately, I really dislike you and have forgotten to tell you that > the field has been planted with landmines. You decide not to go to > Placeville after all, or someone tells you about the landmines, or > drags you out of the field. So my plan fails, but wouldn't you say that > I intended to kill you? (That's setting aside whether you should have > known about landmines etc etc). Alla: I guess what confuses me is how we can set aside whether I knew about the landmines for the purposes of determining whether you intended to kill me or not. Because as far as I believe not only Snape knew about Remus' condition, but I also think that Sirius had all reasons to believe that Snape knew. So you (Sirius) tell me (Snape) the information of how to go to the place with landmines, about which not only I know, but you believe I know too. I believe that in that instanse you are not hiding, well, pretty much nothing except that you are animagi that is and the blame for deciding to go lies sorely with me. Oh, you should have been silent out of concern for your friend if nothing else in my opinion and of course I can die if mine explodes, but that does not translate in my mind in you trying to kill me. I am sure you wanted to get me in trouble, but IMO I went out and brought that trouble all upon myself. JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 19 14:38:21 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:38:21 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184948 Ceridwen: I guess I'll join the parade of "for examples." I do like the landmine one, though. We know that Snape saw Madam Pomphrey take Remus to the willow. We know that Snape suspects Remus is a werewolf. I think we can extend that to a safe assumption that Snape also saw the Marauders enter the tunnel after Madam Pomphrey left, then saw them alive and well in school the next day. This can do one of two things - either Snape will doubt that Remus is indeed a werewolf, thereby wanting proof one way or the other all the more, or Snape will assume that there are protective measures in place that protect the Marauders. Snape does well in DADA. Shortly after the Prank we see him writing reams on his DADA exam. He will know that a werewolf cannot differentiate between friend and foe during transformations and so will assume that either a) he is wrong or b) there are safeguards in place. Alla: But again if you believe that Snape went there not knowing that Remus is a werewolf, then we are just too far from each other and I do not think I can even debate that point. Because of course if he believes that there is no werewolf there, then of course Sirius tricked him. That was my thought before book 7. I thought all that Snape knew was that Marauders were doing there something dangerous and he went there to find out what exactly it was and hopefully to get them in trouble. Ooops ? there is a werewolf there waiting for Snape. Sure, it is a dangerous foolish trick, you would get no argument from me in this scenario, none whatsoever. But as I said his conversation with Lily put the last nail for me into that idea. I am convinced now that he was sure or highly suspected and all my thoughts are based upon this. If you do not believe in this building block, there is nothing for me to build on, you know? So, as I am sure I also mentioned somewhere upthread, I believe in third possibility ? Snape did not think that he was wrong, maybe he speculated that safeguards were in place, maybe not, but I think regardless he was sure that he can do whatever Marauders do to stay safe because he is so good at DADA. He does not know what it is? Oh who cares! He is an expert after all, he will show those arrogant toe rags that he can handle werewolf too and be a hero in Lily's eyes. Speculating of course. I already addressed landmine example upthread, and I just do not see how that person who showed you how to get in gets to be blamed for trying to kill you. I do not care why you went to seek danger, I mean in your hypothetical you subscribe the noblest motivations to you, and I am sure Snape wanted to be a hero in Lily's eyes as well, and eradicate his enemies from school,. But you still **went to seek danger**, all on your own. How does that mean that you are the hero, honestly beats me, sorry. Ceridwen: Other than that, I'm one of the ones who doubt Sirius wanted Snape to die but instead wanted him to soil himself and learn a lesson about snooping on other people. I could be wrong, though, so I agree with you that there is no indication one way or another that this is what Sirius intended. Alla: I so do not want to explain myself for many posts again, lol, so let me just say I do not believe that Sirius wanted to kill Snape either, I think they were teenagers doing stupid things, yes and Snape too. I just do not think there is a proof either way and of course to me what Sirius wanted is not very relevant to what he actually did. The way I see it is that even if Sirius badly wanted Snape killed, he needed to do much more and something different from what he did for me to say that he "tried to kill Snape". Hey, simplest thing - **put Imperio on Snape** and here we go ? attempt to kill, very clear cut IMO. JMO, Alla From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 19 15:32:25 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:32:25 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184949 > Alla: > So, as I am sure I also mentioned somewhere upthread, I believe in > third possibility ? Snape did not think that he was wrong, maybe he > speculated that safeguards were in place, maybe not, but I think > regardless he was sure that he can do whatever Marauders do to stay > safe because he is so good at DADA. He does not know what it is? Oh > who cares! He is an expert after all, he will show those arrogant toe > rags that he can handle werewolf too and be a hero in Lily's eyes. > Speculating of course. Montavilla47: To be honest, I think this is the most likely possibility. While we don't see much arrogance in child!Snape (the memories), adult!Snape has tons of it, so I think it's perfectly in character for teen!Snape to think that he could handle a werewolf if the Marauders were doing so. But Sirius *knew* that Snape couldn't handle Lupin in werewolf form. At least, I think, in my sternly motherly mode that he *ought* to have known better--and had the decency to warn Snape. Not that Snape would have listened. (Of course, I don't know that he *didn't*, because he might have warned Snape and to Snape that would just have sounded like taunting...) Flashback music..... Sirius: You wanna know what's going on? Well, why don't you just press that bump on the tree and you'll find out! Snape: Maybe I will! Sirius: You know what? You're an idiot. Because you'd just be killing yourself! Snape: Sez you! Sirius: I'm serious! Snape: And I'm Severus! And you can't tell me what to do! Sirius: All right, then kill yourself! > Alla: > > I so do not want to explain myself for many posts again, lol, so let > me just say I do not believe that Sirius wanted to kill Snape either, > I think they were teenagers doing stupid things, yes and Snape too. I > just do not think there is a proof either way and of course to me > what Sirius wanted is not very relevant to what he actually did. The > way I see it is that even if Sirius badly wanted Snape killed, he > needed to do much more and something different from what he did for > me to say that he "tried to kill Snape". Hey, simplest thing - **put > Imperio on Snape** and here we go ? attempt to kill, very clear cut > IMO. Montavilla47: See, I don't think it really matters whether or not Sirius intended to kill Snape. I always knew that that was exaggeration on the part of Snape. The thing isn't that Sirius actively intended harm, it's that he was either a) too rash and stupid to even consider what might happen or b) so indifferent for the safety of others that he didn't *care* whether or not Snape got killed (let alone what might happen to Lupin), or c) both. And I'm afraid that "c" is perfectly in character for Sirius. Sirius has many great qualities and I think it was shame that he died--and especially that he died after suffering a year of home arrest. He didn't deserve any of that--or the twelve years he spent in prison. But he was profoundly callous and selfish person. If he loved you, then you were everything. If he didn't, then you were nothing. Really, he and Snape had a lot in common, because Snape was pretty much the same for most of his life. Montavilla47 From leahstill at hotmail.com Wed Nov 19 15:45:37 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:45:37 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Alla: > > I guess what confuses me is how we can set aside whether I knew about > the landmines for the purposes of determining whether you intended to > kill me or not. > Alla: > > I guess what confuses me is how we can set aside whether I knew about > the landmines for the purposes of determining whether you intended to > kill me or not. Leah: Ah, I purposely set it aside because it was not the question you asked. You said that you were puzzled over this situation: Person A wanted to go to X. Person B knew this and gave A (dangerous) information about how to get to X. If A never went to X, how could A ever accuse B of trying to kill him/her? Your phrasing of the situation did not factor in A's potential knowledge of any dangers, your question seemed to be based on the fact that since A's death would require action by A (going to X), if A never went to X , how could A accuse B of wanting to kill him/her? Once we introduce your new point, then we're back to the discussion we've been having at some length, and the problem is, we don't know what Sirius' intention was, only what Snape's belief in that intention is. I don't think it helps to go over it all again. However, what I would say if that *if* A intends to kill B, any knowledge, recklessness, stupidity etc by B can not take away from that intention. A intends to kill B by planting a bomb in B's car. B knows he is a terrorist target, and has been shown by security forces how to check his car before getting in. A knows B has been told he is a target, and may suspect he has received training, but A thinks he will try the bomb anyway. B scoffs at the fact of being a target and doesn't bother and the bomb goes off but misfires, causing B superficial injuries. None of what happens to the bomb, or B's stupidity detract in any way from A's original intention to kill B. You can argue over A's degree of responsibility for B's injuries and for any share B has in that responsibility, but that doesn't affect A's original intention. Leah From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 19 16:26:39 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:26:39 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184952 Alla: > > Maybe we will finally get to the crux of the matter for me. So, here is the follow up question. How can **anybody** think that if somebody gives them the information, dangerous information to be sure, but information how to get to the place where I want to go myself, is planning on killing them. Meaning, that no matter what that other person gives me, without **me going** their plans are **not going to happen**, ever. So, I think I would be biggest hyppocrite on earth if I would dare to say that other person tried to get me killed. Does it make sense? Carol responds: If Severus thought he was going to see a caged or bound werewolf and instead he saw an unbound werewolf chasing him, he would, indeed, think that Sirius meant for him to be killed. (Not that Sirius would have killed him directly, but murder by werewolf is just as much murder as murder by Basilisk or by Nagini.) I'm not saying that's what Sirius intended, only that Severus would naturally *think* that's what he intended. sirius hated him, after all. (If they were friends, he might have thought differently.) The adult Snape's belief (and it must be his real belief or he'd never state it to Dumbledore) that Sirius tried to kill him is sufficient evidence for me that he believed that the werewolf was restrained in some way. (Sirius didn't say that, of course; he merely let Severus think it.) Alla: > But no matter what he may have wanted to happen to Snape and no matter what secrets he gave to Snape, Snape still went and Sirius as far as I am concerned, did not trick him to go, did not plan to kill him, he foolishly gave him an information that he would not supposed to. Carol responds: He didn't trick him into going, true, but he did *entice* him. (It's rather like the Weasley Twins enticing Dudley with the Ton-Tongue Toffee, which they knew Dudley would eat. Otherwise, where's the "fun"? And Sirius *did* want to scare Severus, just as the Twins wanted to scare Dudley, so Severus was his intended victim in that sense. Clearly, Severus didn't expect to be scared, much less in danger of being killed. He merely wanted to see the werewolf and confirm his theory. And if he thought that he could do so safely, he must have assumed that the werewolf would be confined. *Of course* he should have thought, Wait a minute. Black is my enemy. There must be something he's not telling me (the werewolf *isn't* confined and there's no way to survive if you're not an Animagus--or didn't bring a broom). But Sirius should have thought: What if "Snivellus" gets killed? Won't I be guilty of some crime? And what about Remus? Neither of them thought beyond the moment and their own adolescent goals. One endangered himself, thinking, as teenagers do, that he could take a risk without being harmed. The other offered him *the means* to endanger himself--and no means of escape. It's worse to endanger someone else than to endanger yourself--especially if you know you're doing so and that the other person can't escape as you do yourself. It's the whole Animagus bit that makes me think badly of Sirius. He *knew* that Severus was not an Animagus and could not escape, yet he offered him the means of endangering himself, anyway. He baited a trap and Severus took the bait, not knowing that walking (or crawling?) down that tunnel could have been the last thing he ever did--and would have been, had it not been for James. (Bear in mind that I'm no fan of James!) Carol, who likes Pippin's idea that James brought his broom since neither boy could have outrun a werewolf From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Wed Nov 19 16:54:18 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:54:18 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184953 I answered this and then lost it. Grr! > Montavilla47: > To be honest, I think this is the most likely possibility. While we > don't see much arrogance in child!Snape (the memories), adult!Snape > has tons of it, so I think it's perfectly in character for teen! Snape to > think that he could handle a werewolf if the Marauders were doing so. > > But Sirius *knew* that Snape couldn't handle Lupin in werewolf > form. At least, I think, in my sternly motherly mode that he *ought* > to have known better--and had the decency to warn Snape. Not > that Snape would have listened. (Of course, I don't know that he > *didn't*, because he might have warned Snape and to Snape that > would just have sounded like taunting...) Magpie: Exactly. Sirius was wrong to give Snape the information. He should have known better. A better man would have said, "Okay, Snape has found out Remus's secret. He wants to go into the tunnel during the full moon to see him as a werewolf. He must think he will be safe. I (Sirius) have been in the tunnel many times. However my method for keeping safe is to be an Animagus, which I don't think Snape is. So I can't see how he's going to be safe. So I shouldn't do anything to encourage him since I myself can't be sure he'll be safe." But instead he said, "He wants to see the werewolf and that he can handle it? Here's the key. Have fun." And then waited for him to come running out crying. It's wrong, and if Snape had died he would have had some responsibility, but it's not tricking him. Snape has good reason to think that Sirius may have wanted him dead after that, but making it into attempted murder seems like a blatant attempt to gloss over his own behavior, which I think is the thing that most rankles him. The reason he can't forgive Sirius is, I think, not that he tried to kill him, which has some dignity, but that he can't accept and forgive himself for his own foolishness which led to having to be rescued by James. It's the humiliation, not the danger. It's one thing to say "He knew I'd be in danger" when it seemed like Snape didn't know about the werewolf. Knowing that he did know about it, now it begs the question of how Snape himself thought he would be safe against the werewolf. And the only answer is "I didn't know. Just figured I'd handle it." Which has little to do with Sirius. Even if Snape knew the Marauders went into the tunnel (I can't remember if the text makes it clear that he knew that or not) he's left saying that he figured he'd do whatever they did to keep safe, which he still didn't know. A student giving him that excuse today would probably be called a dunderhead. > Montavilla47: > See, I don't think it really matters whether or not Sirius intended to > kill Snape. I always knew that that was exaggeration on the part of > Snape. The thing isn't that Sirius actively intended harm, it's that > he was either a) too rash and stupid to even consider what might > happen or b) so indifferent for the safety of others that he didn't > *care* whether or not Snape got killed (let alone what might happen > to Lupin), or c) both. Magpie: Right, which is a find reason for Snape to hate Sirius or for plenty of other people to dislike Sirius. But it's not a trick or murder. -m From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Wed Nov 19 17:02:40 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:02:40 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184954 > Alla: > > But no matter what he may have wanted to happen to Snape and > no matter what secrets he gave to Snape, Snape still went and Sirius > as far as I am concerned, did not trick him to go, did not plan to > kill him, he foolishly gave him an information that he would not > supposed to. > > Carol responds: > > He didn't trick him into going, true, but he did *entice* him. (It's > rather like the Weasley Twins enticing Dudley with the Ton-Tongue > Toffee, which they knew Dudley would eat. Otherwise, where's the > "fun"? Magpie: The twins enticed Dudley, but Sirius did not, imo, entice Snape since Snape needed no enticing. The sweet was left on the floor and introduced into the situation by the twins, and Dudley did not know what it was. Snape was enticed by the situation in general and knew there was a werewolf. This is more like if Dudley said, "I hear you have sweets that make your tongue swell up the size of a killer whale. I want to try one of those." He would of course be assuming that the experience wouldn't be upsetting. And the twins said, "Okay, here's one we made." It's still wrong of the twins to take advantage of Dudley's naivite and not tell him that it will probably be far worse for him as a Muggle than it would be for a Wizard. But what the Twins actually did in that scene is what we *thought* Sirius did before, where Snape's ignorance approached Dudley's and Sirius seemed to be actively deceiving and enticing Snape instead of just passively letting him do something he had good reason to think he would regret no matter how much he claimed to want it now. (And even helping him do it.) Still being a jerk, but it's no longer a trick. -m From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 19 17:52:50 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:52:50 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184955 Carol earlier: > > > > He didn't trick him into going, true, but he did *entice* him. (It's rather like the Weasley Twins enticing Dudley with the Ton-Tongue Toffee, which they knew Dudley would eat. Otherwise, where's the "fun"? > > Magpie: > The twins enticed Dudley, but Sirius did not, imo, entice Snape since Snape needed no enticing. The sweet was left on the floor and introduced into the situation by the twins, and Dudley did not know what it was. Snape was enticed by the situation in general and knew there was a werewolf. This is more like if Dudley said, "I hear you have sweets that make your tongue swell up the size of a killer whale. I want to try one of those." He would of course be assuming that the experience wouldn't be upsetting. And the twins said, "Okay, here's one we made." > > It's still wrong of the twins to take advantage of Dudley's naivite and not tell him that it will probably be far worse for him as a Muggle than it would be for a Wizard. But what the Twins actually did in that scene is what we *thought* Sirius did before, where Snape's ignorance approached Dudley's and Sirius seemed to be actively deceiving and enticing Snape instead of just passively letting him do something he had good reason to think he would regret no matter how much he claimed to want it now. (And even helping him do it.) Still being a jerk, but it's no longer a trick. Carol responds: He *suspected* there was a werewolf, but he didn't know it was loose or how to escape it. He didn't know the full extent of his danger, any more than Dudley (who knew the sweet was dropped by Wizards and had suffered from Wizard magic before) did. Sirius knew he was withholding the key information--how he and his friends escaped--and that Severus could *not* escape as they did. You don't give someone information that could lead to their death, *especially* knowing that the person will act on it, without being morally responsible for the consequences. Severus acted on incomplete information and endangered only himself. Sirius had complete information, some of which he withheld, and endangered another person. He is obviously, IMO, the more guilty of the two. Had Severus attempted to endanger or entice him in return, it would be another matter. It seems that we disagree, permanently and irrevocably. Carol, setting down her ping-pong paddle without having changed her mind From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 19 18:51:38 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 18:51:38 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184956 > Magpie: > It's wrong, and if Snape had died he would have had some > responsibility, but it's not tricking him. Snape has good reason to > think that Sirius may have wanted him dead after that, but making it > into attempted murder seems like a blatant attempt to gloss over his > own behavior, which I think is the thing that most rankles him. The > reason he can't forgive Sirius is, I think, not that he tried to kill > him, which has some dignity, but that he can't accept and forgive > himself for his own foolishness which led to having to be rescued by > James. It's the humiliation, not the danger. Alla: Agreed. > >> > Montavilla47: > > See, I don't think it really matters whether or not Sirius intended > to > > kill Snape. I always knew that that was exaggeration on the part of > > Snape. The thing isn't that Sirius actively intended harm, it's > that > > he was either a) too rash and stupid to even consider what might > > happen or b) so indifferent for the safety of others that he didn't > > *care* whether or not Snape got killed (let alone what might happen > > to Lupin), or c) both. > > Magpie: > Right, which is a find reason for Snape to hate Sirius or for plenty > of other people to dislike Sirius. But it's not a trick or murder. Alla: Right, and to try and to make my post not be a complete me too, I also agree with Montavilla that it does not really matter whether Sirius intended to kill Snape. The thing that matters to me for this argument is whether his **actions** can be viewed as attempt to kill Snape and my answer to it is no. And sure, yes, I agree that it can be any of three things you described. And yes, Leah, I totally agree that if Sirius intended to kill Snape, no actions of Snape would change Sirius' **intention**. What I disagree with you is that I think that Snape's actions and knowledge change how I view Sirius' **actions** and what I am blaming Sirius for and what not. In short, for all I know when Sirius gave Snape this information, he was thinking OMG, I so so hope that this greasy git will go there and never comes back alive. However, even if Sirius was thinking it, which I do not believe he was, but it is of course possible, Sirus' thinking it to me does not translate in him being blamed for murder attempt. For all he knew Snape would take this information and will go to bed sleeping peacefully. JMO, Alla From bullybear at gmail.com Wed Nov 19 12:20:45 2008 From: bullybear at gmail.com (catiatm) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:20:45 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184957 Please be patient with me. I have enjoyed this list for some time, but this is my first post. Alla wrote, "Maybe we will finally get to the crux of the matter for me. So, here is the follow up question. How can **anybody** think that if somebody gives them the information, dangerous information to be sure, but information how to get to the place where I want to go myself, is planning on killing them. Meaning, that no matter what that other person gives me, without **me going** their plans are **not going to happen**, ever. ..." To which Leah responded: "Honestly, no. You tell me that you really want to go to Placeville. I tell you that the way lies across that field. Unfortunately, I really dislike you and have forgotten to tell you that the field has been planted with landmines. ..." This passage has always puzzled me. I'm see Leah's point, except that Severus knew he was getting information from a known enemy, had more or less surmised Remus' problem, and knew it was a full moon. He was only a teenager, but he was a keenly analytical, intelligent one, so it's hard to imagine he truly had no idea what he was getting into. I suspect that his desire to get the Mauraders into trouble overrode his common sense. What I have never understood about the Prank is the subsequent psychology. Sirius goes to prison when he was barely out of his teens, and having worked with inmates, I know that time sort of stops for them on the inside. Without development programs, many prisoners age chronologically but remain about the same psychologically. (And I'm pretty sure the Dementors weren't big into enrichment programs!) While that helps explain why Sirius sometimes behaves like an overgrown boy, Severus is harder for me to understand for two reasons. First, he remains in the world and should continue to mature. Why has he not gained any perspective on the incident? Secondly, if my maths are correct, he was a Death Eater for at least two years. During that time, it's hard to imagine that he wasn't involved with some really nasty, terrible things. I suppose it was just a decision on JKR's part to limit what we learn about that chapter of his life, but I'd think that some of those memories would remain with Severus as far worse than anything he ever experienced at Hogwarts. I suppose I view him as emotionally stunted and unwilling (unable?) to accept responsibility for his actions because the consequences (losing Lily and then really losing Lily) were so traumatic to him. The problem I see with the line of thinking is that he is such a disciplined, controlled, intellectual person that it's hard to believe he so completely lacks insight into his own behaviour. Thanks for "listening"! -- Cat From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Wed Nov 19 19:55:45 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:55:45 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184958 > Carol responds: > > He *suspected* there was a werewolf, but he didn't know it was loose > or how to escape it. Magpie: Yes, that's the enticement, but it didn't come from Sirius. It came from what he deduced based on what he saw--and he was right. Carol: He didn't know the full extent of his danger, any > more than Dudley (who knew the sweet was dropped by Wizards and had > suffered from Wizard magic before) did. Sirius knew he was withholding > the key information--how he and his friends escaped--and that Severus > could *not* escape as they did. Magpie: Well, he didn't know the full extent of the danger, yes. Nor did he know the extent of the safety precautions. If he thought the werewolf was chained up that was just his imagining. Sirius didn't tell him to drop by for a visit because Remus was chained up. Dudley is a Muggle picking up a piece of candy--something that looked like any other piece of candy and was intended to look like a piece of candy. He had never had any experience with Wizard candy, would not even have any reason to think such a thing existed. He'd had a guy give him a pig's tail with a wand but that's not reason to think that a piece of candy on his floor must be something magic. Sure in retrospect he could say he shouldn't have trusted anything that appeared with Wizards, but I think there was plenty of good reason for him to think they'd just dropped a regular piece of candy that they were planning to eat themselves. The Twins played it so that he would think that. What Snape suspected and so was planning on was a werewolf at the end of the tunnel. Any ideas about the werewolf being restrained or a DADA defense immediately came from his imagination. He knew (or thought he knew) he was facing a werewolf and decided he didn't need to know anything more specific beforehand once he found out how to get into the tree. It was an uninformed informed choice. He didn't find out the answers to these questions. Carol: > You don't give someone information that could lead to their death, > *especially* knowing that the person will act on it, without being > morally responsible for the consequences. Magpie: I didn't say Sirius didn't have moral responsibility for the consequences. I think Alla and I have both said that Sirius *did* have moral responsibility for the consequences. We just said he didn't trick Snape or entice him. He helped him do something dangerous and didn't try to stop him. Snape tricked himself and Sirius, when he saw he was doing that, helped him do it. Carol: Severus acted on incomplete > information and endangered only himself. Sirius had complete > information, some of which he withheld, and endangered another person. Magpie: Yes, Sirius had more information--but Snape knew how little information he himself had. And Snape's decision to act on incomplete information was not down to Sirius lying. Sirius was guilty of a) not stepping in to stop Snape when he saw him doing something that he (Sirius) should have seen was dangerous and even worse b) making it easier for him to do this dangerous thing. Carol: > He is obviously, IMO, the more guilty of the two. Had Severus > attempted to endanger or entice him in return, it would be another matter. > > It seems that we disagree, permanently and irrevocably. Magpie: We seem to be talking about two different things. Snape obviously had no malice against himself in mind when he went into the tunnel. He wasn't trying to get himself hurt or scared. Sirius, otoh, wanted Snape to be at best scared and at worse hurt or killed. So Sirius's intentions were worse than Snape's--at least towards Snape himself (Snape's intentions towards Lupin may have been malicious). But what Alla and I are saying is that Snape was enticed not by Sirius but by things he saw on his own. It wasn't Sirius who gave Snape a reason to go into the tunnel or a plan to get into the tunnel. All Sirius did was to not try to stop Snape from doing something dangerous without knowing if Snape could survive it, and worse he removed an obstacle to Snape going through with his plan. Sirius just got out of the way--and got the willow out of the way. Snape talked himself into it. He didn't argue Snape out of the obvious objections, Snape did that himself. It seems like you're giving Sirius responsibility over those things, as if a werewolf lair Snape knows nothing about is as innocent-looking as a piece of candy falling out of a guest's pocket. It's a werewolf lair. When we thought Snape was just curious about where Lupin was going *that* was more like the candy on the floor. Why would he think there should be anything dangerous? But once he knows there's a werewolf the danger is inherent in the situation and I just think Snape did more convincing of himself than Sirius did to him. I think the promise of what was at the end of that tunnel (proving his theory to Lily, proving the Marauders-at least one of them-were monsters) was what enticed him to recklessly run in and tell himself the place was safe for visitors without doing the sort of research he'd need to do to know that. The kind of research Snape would usually demand. The Prank, in the end, still seems far more Snape vs. Snape now to me than Snape vs. Sirius. Sirius did have a moral responsibility for what he did, and he did have more information about how he himself handled the risk (the Marauders didn't just rush into the tunnel to see what was at the other end) and no reason to think Snape had a plan that was just as good. But that's not enticement or trickery, it's sitting back and letting a fellow human being hang himself when you should be not only not helping him but taking some care to prevent it. -m From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 19 20:53:33 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:53:33 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184959 > Magpie: > It's wrong, and if Snape had died he would have had some > responsibility, but it's not tricking him. Snape has good reason to > think that Sirius may have wanted him dead after that, but making it > into attempted murder seems like a blatant attempt to gloss over his > own behavior, which I think is the thing that most rankles him. The > reason he can't forgive Sirius is, I think, not that he tried to kill > him, which has some dignity, but that he can't accept and forgive > himself for his own foolishness which led to having to be rescued by > James. It's the humiliation, not the danger. Montavilla47: I agree. I get the feeling with Snape that he'd rather be dead than humiliated. And you know, we even have a canon incident of Snape running headlong into danger with a beast he doesn't know how to handle. In PS/SS, he goes running into the third floor corridor and ends up being bitten by Fluffy. Later, he complains to Filch about "how are you supposed to take care of three heads at once?" Hehe. Snape never really learned that lesson, did he? Of course what isn't funny is that he went into that Shrieking Shack one time too many. Magpie: > It's one thing to say "He knew I'd be in danger" when it seemed like > Snape didn't know about the werewolf. Knowing that he did know about > it, now it begs the question of how Snape himself thought he would be > safe against the werewolf. And the only answer is "I didn't know. > Just figured I'd handle it." Which has little to do with Sirius. Even > if Snape knew the Marauders went into the tunnel (I can't remember if > the text makes it clear that he knew that or not) he's left saying > that he figured he'd do whatever they did to keep safe, which he > still didn't know. A student giving him that excuse today would > probably be called a dunderhead. Montavilla47: Which makes the parellel to Harry going the Ministry a lot stronger. Harry didn't have a clue about what he was going to do once he got there. He just wanted to *go*! He was lucky to have friends who would go with him to watch his back. I wonder if this was partly behind Snape's nastiness when Harry arrived at school in HBP? It's one of those times when Snape seems over the top. It might be that Snape is worried about Draco, or it might be that Snape is worried about Harry endangering himself. Or it might be that Snape is still annoyed at Harry for doing something Snape himself would have done--with similarly disastrous results. From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 19 21:34:05 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 21:34:05 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184960 Cat: > What I have never understood about the Prank is the subsequent > psychology. Sirius goes to prison when he was barely out of his > teens, and having worked with inmates, I know that time sort of stops > for them on the inside. Without development programs, many > prisoners age chronologically but remain about the same > psychologically. (And I'm pretty sure the Dementors weren't big into > enrichment programs!) While that helps explain why Sirius sometimes > behaves like an overgrown boy, Severus is harder for me to understand > for two reasons. First, he remains in the world and should continue > to mature. Why has he not gained any perspective on the incident? Montavilla47: You are not alone. The psychology is far from straightforward, especially the part where Snape never questions this person who dislikes him giving him important information. As for why Snape never gets beyond this, I interpret it something like this: At sixteen, this guy tried to kill me. Okay, maybe he wasn't trying to *kill* me, but he certainly wasn't sorry when something he did nearly killed me. I tried to warn the authorities (Dumbledore) about him, and instead of taking me seriously, he simply put me under a gag order and ignored the Marauders when they publicly humiliated me a week later. Then it turns out this fellow was a Death Eater, which frankly, takes all the fun out of Death Eating for me. Not only that, but he betrayed his best friend (just like he betrayed his almost- best friend, Lupin), and ended up getting my precious Lily killed. Oh, yeah, he also killed that stupid Peter Pettigrew and a bunch of other people. Why should I ever forgive him now? And then, he escapes from Azkaban (just like he has escaped just punishment!) and he's threatening Lily's son. Which is basically my reason for living. And, he's probably talked the stupid werewolf into helping him. And, as the moment just before Snape goes into his famous tantrum, Lupin is recasting history in order to make Sirius look better and reduce my eternal hatred for these thuggish bullies in jealousy over Jame's prowess in Quidditch! Plus, while Sirius stopped developing at 22 because he was put into a prison environment, I've stopped maturing because I've been in a different prison--in which I'm surrounded by children, with institutionalized House division that encourages clan thinking. Cat: > I suppose I view him as emotionally stunted and unwilling (unable?) > to accept responsibility for his actions because the consequences > (losing Lily and then really losing Lily) were so traumatic to him. > The problem I see with the line of thinking is that he is such a > disciplined, controlled, intellectual person that it's hard to > believe he so completely lacks insight into his own behaviour. Montavilla47: But isn that Snape? He's disciplined, controlled, and intellectual with a very blind spot when it comes to himself. But, I think that his memories do show that he understands his own culpability in losing Lily--both times. He doesn't blame anyone else when Lily dies. He blames himself to the point that it's only his promise to protect her son that allows him to live on. >From that point on, his journey is one of slowly (very slowly) expanding his circle of concern from Lily outwards, until, by HBP, he's protecting everyone he can from Voldemort. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 19 22:14:57 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:14:57 -0000 Subject: Snape / Theo / Peter Peter Death Eater / Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184961 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > My personal solution is that the werewolf, being magically driven to > attack humans, normally stayed in the shack because it sensed the > villagers nearby. Its own magic would keep it where the scent of > prey was close. zanooda: Maybe you are right, although I imagined that the werewolf tried to get out through the tunnel at first, but gave it up after a few unpleasant experiences with the Willow :-). So he kept to the Shack, mostly, and it was there that Snape saw him through the opening. However, the werewolf *could* go into the tunnel, which makes the boys being there very dangerous. They just were lucky to get out safely, IMO :-). From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Nov 20 15:30:10 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:30:10 -0000 Subject: Snape / Theo / Peter Peter Death Eater / Snape's Memories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184962 > zanooda: > > Maybe you are right, although I imagined that the werewolf tried to get out through the tunnel at first, but gave it up after a few unpleasant experiences with the Willow :-). Pippin: Heheh. JKR's put us in exactly Snape's position. We can infer that wherever the werewolf goes, it can't stay near the tunnel entrance because, among other things, people would hear it screaming, so something must keep it away. And it's driving us crazy not to know what it is. If JKR wanted us to understand how maddening it was for Snape not to know what was going on, she succeeded. . I probably would have the sense not to go into the tunnel to find out. But I'm not a teenage boy. And the teenage boy in question doesn't know that the tunnel leads to a house with no exits. Someone remind me, just how can we conclude that knowing a werewolf uses the tunnel to exit the grounds before he transforms translates into knowing said tunnel is a deathtrap? Why should Snape even suspect that? Sure, Sirius was a bully and a troublemaker. He hexed people and called them names -- but not even Snape had a reason to think he was a killer -- not yet. I used to surmise that Snape must have been forced to enter the tunnel because otherwise he ought to have turned back as soon as he heard the werewolf screaming. But as Alla reminds us, Snape was a DADA expert. He would know that a screaming werewolf is a captive werewolf. Obviously it can't get out, or it wouldn't be screaming. It would be hunting you. It would look like the Marauders had been playing the same game with the werewolf that people used to play with the tree, trying to see how close they could get to it. Snape might as well go on and have a look, since he'd come so far. And then it all went quiet... Pippin From zgirnius at yahoo.com Thu Nov 20 20:02:48 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:02:48 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184963 Zara: First, a brief comment on a later thread... > Pippin: > Someone remind me, just how can we conclude that knowing a werewolf uses the tunnel to exit the grounds before he transforms translates into knowing said tunnel is a deathtrap? Zara: An excellent question! We don't, and I can't believe this had not occured to me yet in the context of this discussion. In a fanfic I once wrote about this incident - I had Snape hurrying to reach the exit at the other end when he realized James was following him. But really, I'm posting to get to the rest of Carol's excellent Chapter Discussion questions for "The Proince's Tale" which I did not address in weither my first response or later posts in response to others. > 12. James's words, "Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, > wouldn't you?" mirror Draco's words about Hufflepuff in SS/PS. What > do you think that JKR is saying here about James and Draco or House > prejudice in general? And what's your reaction to James's imaginary > Sword of Gryffindor, raised in defense of chivalry? Zara: I read this as a straightforward parallel, final confirmation that James arrived at Hogwarts full of himself and full of prejudices learned at home. The imaginary sword made me curl my lip. > 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting > Severus's back? Why include that detail? Zara: I think it signifies Snape was accepted into Slytherin, and specifically by the Pureblood supremacist element among the students. That he accepted the offered friendship/protection, given his family situation, makes lots of sense to me. > 17. The adult Snape is marvelously articulate, often brilliantly > sardonic and sometimes even poetic, yet the teenage Severus is often > at a loss for words, and even the young adult Snape seems tongue- tied > in the hilltop scene with Dumbledore. What do you think happened in > the twelve or so years between the hilltop and Harry's first year at > Hogwarts to turn Snape into the snarky, sarcastic Potions master that > we encounter in SS/PS? Zara: Part of it, I think, was working as a spy in the first war. The speech he directs at Harry in Occlumency lessons (how Voldemort exploits weaknesses, the inadvisability of wearing one's heart on one's sleeve, etc.) is very true of him. If he were pronoe to ":losing it" among Death Eaters, he would probably have been killed much earlier. > 18. What do you think Dumbledore means when he tells Snape, "If I > know [Harry], he will have arranged matters so that when he does set > out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort"? Zara: I agree with the posters who have suggested this means Harry will have arranged to dispose of the Horcruxes and will agree to sacrifice himself. > 19. We get only a few hints of what Harry is feeling as he witnesses > these scenes, and yet he goes from hating Snape and wanting revenge > against him to publicly defending him and ultimately naming his > second son after him and Dumbledore. Aside from the shock of Snape's > death, which scenes do you feel had the most impact on Harry's change > of heart and why? Zara: I think the simple knowledge of a credible reason for the remorse he has already been told Snape felt was one factor. I think seeing the scene after Lily's death was important because he could see for himself what Albus had told him in the previous book (the depth of Snape's remorse). Of the later scenes, I think both the Ring scene and "Always" scene were critical. The first established that Snape had not, as Harry believed, murdered Albus. The second established that Snape was Harry's mysterious helper - we know he recognized the Silver Doe and grasped its meaning, as he repeats this information right back to Voldemort in the final confrontation. And it was probably shocking, but also comforting, to hear what was likely his own initial reaction to Albus's news about the soul bit in seeing that memory. Snape's angry speech to Dumbledore could equally well have been spoken by Harry, I believe. > 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter? > Why did *Snape* choose them? Zara: JKR chose them to clarify Snape's story, I guess. Not only to establish his loyalties, but also to explain his moptivations throughout the series. My own view on why *Snape* chose them differs a bit from the most popular position among those who answered this question. I do not agree he chose them all because they were all necessary to convince Harry. I believe that starting with the Ring Horcrux memory, with the omission of the memories related to the 7 Potters as well as the memory of crying over Lily's letter, would have sufficed for that purpose. It would have cleared him of having murdered Albus, and would have established that Snape had, indeed, worked to benefit Harry and not Voldemort in the matter of the Sword of Gryffindor. Snape is not aware, so far as I know, that Harry knows who told Voldemort the Prophecy, so he cannot be thinking that Harry needs to know this to trust him. On the contrary, so far as Snape knows, he is entering a new and enormous bl;ack mark against himself into Harry's view of him. But instead Snape included the whole backstory, and an almost full account of his dealings with Albus as they touched on Harry. (The one group of memories of significance that was left out, IMO, was Snape warning Albus and the Order of Harry's disappearance at the end of OotP.) I think he felt Harry deserved to know the whole story, the bad along with the good. If he had not included the backstory, for all Snape knew, Harry would have walked to his death still thinking it was a nameless and insignificat Death Eater who had reported the Prophecy to Voldemort. > 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What > surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the end of > the chapter the first time through? Zara: This chapter confirmed my view. I could not say three was anything in it that surprised me. I had not been a proponent of the idea that Snape and Lily were friends as children, but certainly has not rejected it. I had supposed Snape killing Dumbledore might have been Plan B, but could always see where the idea that they had planned it from the start of HBP came from. I could also not say that anything in it disappointed me. I had hoped Snape and Harry would confront another while both still alive, but that disappointment occured in the previous chapter. The "Always" scene I personally found to be emotionally devastating. I had to take a long break after reading it, and then I read through the rest of the chapter anbd the end of the book pretty quickly. (I should add, I had fully expected pre-DH that Harry would walk to a fake death which he would survive, so the next chapter, which might otherwise have been expected to affect me, was one I simply could not take seriously as tragedy. I knew it would end well. ;) ) I guess that was the surprise of this chapter for me - not what was in it, but that despite there being nothing in it I did not already believe, the way it was written would affect me so much. I could not bear to open this book for a couple of weeks after finishing it. From hanakoricks at hotmail.com Wed Nov 19 15:52:25 2008 From: hanakoricks at hotmail.com (Hanako) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:52:25 -0000 Subject: Need discussion questions related to HBP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184964 Hi guys...this is my first posting here. I am part of a local HP Meetup group and I am hosting our November party this Saturday. I am asking for suggestions for good, in-depth discussion questions that are more than the "should Harry have chosen Ginny or Hermione" kind of stuff. I tried posting this request in an LJ forum I belong to and got an absurd amount of immature questions. The theme of my meeting will be centered around HBP, since this party was originally scheduled when HBP was due to come out this Friday, so if you guys have suggestions on good discussion questions, I'd really appreciate it! Hanako From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Fri Nov 21 02:27:53 2008 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 02:27:53 -0000 Subject: Need discussion questions related to HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184965 Hanako: > Hi guys...this is my first posting here. Ceridwen: Hi, Hanako, and welcome! Hanako: > I am asking for suggestions for good, in-depth discussion > questions that are more than the "should Harry have chosen Ginny or > Hermione" kind of stuff. *(snip)* > > The theme of my meeting will be centered around HBP, since this party > was originally scheduled when HBP was due to come out this Friday, so if > you guys have suggestions on good discussion questions, I'd really > appreciate it! Ceridwen: You might try our Chapter Discussions for HBP, beginning with HBP Chapter One, here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/141797 If you do a search, type in hbp2 for the second chapter discussion, hbp3 for the third chapter, and so on, then go to the last page because that will be where the Chapdisc posts will be. Since we usually have a lot of questions for each chapter, you might want to sift through them and choose your favorites for the party. Have a good time! Ceridwen. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Nov 21 12:07:24 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:07:24 -0000 Subject: Need discussion questions related to HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184966 "Hanako" wrote: > > The theme of my meeting will be centered around HBP, since this party > was originally scheduled when HBP was due to come out this Friday, so if > you guys have suggestions on good discussion questions, I'd really > appreciate it! Potioncat: Welcome! If your discussion questions are strictly from the book, this is a great site for ideas. We are sticklers for canon-based posts. But if you also use the movies as a source, or if you want to talk about the HBP movie, our sister group would be helpful. There have been several threads about HBP already. http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie/ From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Nov 22 12:27:59 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 12:27:59 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184967 > Montavilla47: > But isn that Snape? He's disciplined, controlled, and intellectual > with a very blind spot when it comes to himself. But, I think that > his memories do show that he understands his own culpability > in losing Lily--both times. snip > From that point on, his journey is one of slowly (very slowly) > expanding his circle of concern from Lily outwards, until, by > HBP, he's protecting everyone he can from Voldemort. Potioncat: It seems Snape's mission to protect Lily's son just barely kept him alive. He wears black and lives in a dungeon two-- big hints that he was in mourning and imprisoned emotionally. His occupation--perhaps not one he would have chosen--kept him out of the world most of the year. But even if he had the inclination to move about among people, who could he befriend? If he understood all along that one day he would have to convencingly present himself as loyal to LV-- then he couldn't risk forming friendships or attachments to anyone who wasn't a LV follower. His (future) position as a DE would put them at risk, and possibly put him in a position similar to the one with Charity. It appears he maintained his connections to the Malfoys, but not to many (any?) of the other DEs...no one in the DE camp seemed to trust him. His situation wasn't as bad as Sirius's, but it was similar. He was alone, even among others. If the Potters had lived, both Sirius and Severus would have had the chance to actually grow up. Had Lily lived, Severus would have gotten over her. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 22 14:59:19 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 14:59:19 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184968 > > Potioncat: > It seems Snape's mission to protect Lily's son just barely kept him > alive. He wears black and lives in a dungeon two-- big hints that he > was in mourning and imprisoned emotionally. His occupation--perhaps not > one he would have chosen--kept him out of the world most of the year. > But even if he had the inclination to move about among people, who > could he befriend? Alla: Hogwarts stuff maybe? I mean, you think that had he made some effort to be not even nicer, I do not know, polite to other teachers, they would not have reciprocated? Potioncat: > If he understood all along that one day he would have to convencingly > present himself as loyal to LV-- then he couldn't risk forming > friendships or attachments to anyone who wasn't a LV follower. His > (future) position as a DE would put them at risk, and possibly put him > in a position similar to the one with Charity. Alla: Why? Who says that to be loyal to Voldemort he has to present himself as loner? He can always IMO say later that I was just pretending to be loyal to those people to spy for you my lord. I mean, Lucius Malfoy for example have not decide to behave like Snape and maintained contacts even with people he despised, did he not? What I am saying is that IMO the way Snape chose to behave has nothing to do with him thinking ahead about him being a spy and all to do with his character disposition. I mean, I agree that he was mourning, but again, I do not believe that anybody but himself made him behave to other people as he did. Potioncat: > It appears he maintained his connections to the Malfoys, but not to > many (any?) of the other DEs...no one in the DE camp seemed to trust > him. Alla: And that did not seem very smart to me IMO. Potioncat: > His situation wasn't as bad as Sirius's, but it was similar. He was > alone, even among others. Alla: Um, I am glad that we at least agree that his situation was not as bad as Sirius'. But I can see similarities only in a very, very, very distant way, in their mindsets in a way. Sleeping in your own bed behind Hogwarts walls, eating three meals a day and sleeping under Dementors watch for twelve years? Sorry I strongly disagree. I mean, I guess I understand what you are saying him being alone among many others, but to me the crucial difference is that Snape and only Snape chose that behaviour for himself and could have abandoned it any time and Sirius could not leave his prison without doing what he did. Snape put himself in his mental prison and somebody else put Sirius in a very real prison. Potioncat: >If the Potters had lived, both Sirius and > Severus would have had the chance to actually grow up. Alla: True. Potioncat: >Had Lily lived, > Severus would have gotten over her. Alla: Not so sure about that I am. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Nov 22 16:08:13 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:08:13 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184969 > Alla: > > Hogwarts stuff maybe? I mean, you think that had he made some effort to be not even nicer, I do not know, polite to other teachers, they would not have reciprocated? Pippin: When do we see him being rude to other teachers, DADA professors excepted? AFAWK, he had their trust until they found out he'd once been a Death Eater. In CoS, they're all ready to follow his lead, McGonagall included. But he couldn't afford to make himself popular. Of course Snape didn't know he would have to kill Dumbledore, but he was going to have to do *something* spectacularly evil-seeming in order to take his place among the likes of Bella and Lucius as one who has earned the Dark Lord's favor. It had to be credible that he would do it. Even so, those who knew him best, Hagrid and Slughorn, couldn't believe it. If it's only Hagrid blundering around saying it has to be some kind of trick done on Dumbledore's orders, no one is going to listen to him. And Slughorn is smart enough to keep his mouth shut. But if everyone is saying it, Voldemort is going to start wondering. Alla: > > Snape put himself in his mental prison and somebody else put Sirius > in a very real prison. > Pippin: This overlooks that Sirius had his own guilty feelings for suggesting the plan that got the Potters killed. He knew he was innocent of the crime he'd been sentenced for. But I'm not sure he thought he deserved to be free. Surely it didn't take him twelve years to lose enough weight to slip through the bars as a dog. It was not until Sirius realized that Harry was in danger that he found the will to free himself. And that is a definite parallel to Snape. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 22 16:20:21 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:20:21 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184970 > Alla: > > > > Snape put himself in his mental prison and somebody else put Sirius > > in a very real prison. > > > Pippin: > This overlooks that Sirius had his own guilty feelings for suggesting > the plan that got the Potters killed. He knew he was innocent of > the crime he'd been sentenced for. But I'm not sure he thought he > deserved to be free. Surely it didn't take him twelve years to lose > enough weight to slip through the bars as a dog. Alla: No it does not overlook that. It seemed to me that Potioncat was comparing Snape's situation and Sirius' situation and I said that I can see distant similarities in their mindsets. However, I stand by my assertion that Snape's situation was not just *not as bad* as Sirius, but much better and easier on Snape. I have not noticed Snape, him feeling guilty and all, having any desire to go and spend some time in Azkaban. I know, we are not in Snape's head, however Dumbledore made sure he won't go there and I do not remember him fighting that. So, yes of course Sirius had guilty feelings just as Snape did. But Sirius was in Azkaban for twelve years, Snape was Hogwarts Professor for twelve years - I think in comparison to what Sirius experienced, Snape was in a nice Mexican resort, meal and board inclusive. I am being a bit flippant here, of course. However, I do not think their situations are even close. Mindsets - sure, they are both feeling guilty, besides that - no, not in my opinion. And even though I understand why Sirius is feeling guilty, even what he is feeling guilty about is incomparable with Snape's. IMO of course. Pippin: > It was not until Sirius realized that Harry was in danger that he > found the will to free himself. And that is a definite parallel to Snape. Alla: What part of Snape's life you think it is a parallel to? Are you talking about Snape agreeing to protect Harry when he first comes to Dumbledore? But then the argument that Snape was continuing to be in prison for his stay in Hogwarts, mental one, does not have much merit IMO. Or are you talking about something completely different? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 22 16:50:36 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:50:36 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again WAS :Headmaster for a day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184971 > Alla: >> So, yes of course Sirius had guilty feelings just as Snape did. But > Sirius was in Azkaban for twelve years, Snape was Hogwarts Professor > for twelve years - I think in comparison to what Sirius experienced, > Snape was in a nice Mexican resort, meal and board inclusive. I am > being a bit flippant here, of course. However, I do not think their > situations are even close. Mindsets - sure, they are both feeling > guilty, besides that - no, not in my opinion. > Alla: So I am replying to myself and even spending a post on it because I just realized that I can make a parallel between what Snape seemed to be experiencing while in Hogwarts and Sirius' life. When Sirius was stuck in Grimmauld place, depressed, etc, and even lashing out at Harry couple times unfairly, sure I can see the parallels between Snape and him I suppose. Both of them manipulated somewhat by Dumbledore for the **good of the cause** or to be more precise for the good of Harry and both technically can leave but will not because of Harry. Ugh. But certainly not when Sirius was in that hellish prison IMO. In my opinion there is no worse place to be in the books, period. Of course it is just something I feel about very strongly, but still only my opinion. JMO, Alla From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sat Nov 22 17:57:00 2008 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 17:57:00 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184972 Alla: But again if you believe that Snape went there not knowing that Remus is a werewolf, then we are just too far from each other and I do not think I can even debate that point. Because of course if he believes that there is no werewolf there, then of course Sirius tricked him. That was my thought before book 7. I thought all that Snape knew was that Marauders were doing there something dangerous and he went there to find out what exactly it was and hopefully to get them in trouble. Ceridwen: I believe Snape was reasonably sure there was a werewolf until he noticed that the Marauders could go through the willow tunnel and be fine the next day. I think he had to reassess his suspicion and the probability that there was a werewolf at the end of the tunnel went down in his estimation. He never, IMO, let go of some measure of possibility, just that the possibility was much less likely in his estimation than it had been before. I think someone - was it Pippin, or Potioncat, or someone else? - mentioned something about Snape possibly not realizing the willow tunnel led to a shack without an outlet. I've been turning this over, and where does it say that Snape knew, before going through the tunnel, that the Shrieking Shack was on the other end? It's possible, though I think I'd like to think about this one a little more before standing completely behind it, that Snape didn't necessarily know that the tunnel led to a building. The Shrieking Shack was not associated publicly with the willow or with Hogwarts. It was supposedly a haunted shack on the outskirts of Hogsmeade from which fearsome screams issued, if I recall right. The students would have thought this was all there was to the shack, with the exception of Remus, and then of his close friends once he told them about it. This is a new idea to me. I've always gone under the assumption that Snape knew the shack was on the other end of the tunnel. It's possible this is not the case. Why would he know that the tunnel led to the shack? I can't see any benefit to Remus for Dumbledore to announce to the school that the willow hid a passageway to that creepy shack outside of Hogsmeade. The students didn't know the reason for the shack or for the willow being there, and Snape was one of the students. So were the Marauders until Remus told them about the shack. If Snape didn't know the tunnel led to the shack, he may not have thought the other three Marauders went through to be with Remus, just to get out of the school. Remus would have told them how to get through so they could have some fun against the rules, since they were his friends. Sirius doesn't say Snape knew there was a werewolf in a locked building on the other side, to my recollection (I may be wrong), only that Snape suspected Remus was a werewolf and Sirius told him how to get into the tunnel. Something unspoken might be that yes, Snape thought Remus was a werewolf. Snape also thought, but did not necessarily connect the two incidents, that the Marauders were going through the tunnel for some illicit fun of their own. The possibility, to me, is that Snape thought there was a field or other open space - the Great Outdoors - at the other end of the tunnel and Remus was taken somewhere nearby while the Marauders headed for Hogsmeade. Should we shelve this part of the discussion until we can both think about it a little more? Alla: I just do not think there is a proof either way and of course to me what Sirius wanted is not very relevant to what he actually did. Ceridwen: I think the relevant idea is that Snape believes Sirius tried to kill him. This colors his thinking about Sirius after that. I think he's wrong, Sirius didn't consciously want Snape to die. I do think Snape sincerely believes Sirius wanted him dead. Ceridwen. From leahstill at hotmail.com Sat Nov 22 19:27:11 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 19:27:11 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184973 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > Alla: > > > > > > Snape put himself in his mental prison and somebody else put > Sirius > > > in a very real prison. > > > > > Pippin: > > > This overlooks that Sirius had his own guilty feelings for > suggesting > > the plan that got the Potters killed. He knew he was innocent of > > the crime he'd been sentenced for. But I'm not sure he thought he > > deserved to be free. Surely it didn't take him twelve years to lose > > enough weight to slip through the bars as a dog. > > Alla: > > No it does not overlook that. It seemed to me that Potioncat was > comparing Snape's situation and Sirius' situation and I said that I > can see distant similarities in their mindsets. However, I stand by > my assertion that Snape's situation was not just *not as bad* as > Sirius, but much better and easier on Snape. > > I have not noticed Snape, him feeling guilty and all, having any > desire to go and spend some time in Azkaban. I know, we are not in > Snape's head, however Dumbledore made sure he won't go there and I do > not remember him fighting that. Leah: Snape himself says something similar to Bellatrix, "I had a comfortable job which I preferred to a stint in Azkaban!. I know that's Snape spinning a yarn to Bella, but I don't imagine he would have claimed he was in a equal place to Azkaban on a physical level. We don't see any conversation between Snape and Dumbledore about keeping Snape out of Azkaban, so it's pure conjecture what Snape may or may not have said about it. What we do hear is Snape's immediate reaction after Godric's Hollow: "I wish I were dead" and narrator/Harry describes him as sounding like a wounded animal. Dumbledore then gives Snape a reason for living - protecting Harry. Snape can't do that in Azkaban, he can't help defeat Voldemort in Azkaban. So he remains at Hogwarts, but I agree that mentally he is prison. . Mindsets - sure, they are both feeling > guilty, besides that - no, not in my opinion. > > And even though I understand why Sirius is feeling guilty, even what > he is feeling guilty about is incomparable with Snape's. IMO of > course. Leah: But that's your view, not Sirius' view. What Sirius will see is that the Potters would have been safe if he had been their Secret Keeper; the fact that he was not the Secret Keeper, was because he persuaded James to use Pettigrew instead. Both Snape and Sirius have something to be guilty over, though Pettigrew is more guilty and Voldemort the guiltiest of all. But I don't imagine Sirius is in any mental condition to start compiling lists of culpability. He has to deal with what he did 'wrong'. > > > Pippin: > > It was not until Sirius realized that Harry was in danger that he > > found the will to free himself. And that is a definite parallel to > Snape. > > Alla: > > What part of Snape's life you think it is a parallel to? Are you > talking about Snape agreeing to protect Harry when he first comes to > Dumbledore? But then the argument that Snape was continuing to be in > prison for his stay in Hogwarts, mental one, does not have much merit > IMO. Or are you talking about something completely different? Leah: Answering for Pippin here ,but, Snape wants to die until Dumbledore gives him a reason for going on - saving Harry. Sirius wants to remain in prison (or at least has no motivation to escape) until the newspaper gives a reason for getting out. I think that's a parallell. Leah > From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 22 22:19:25 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 22:19:25 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184974 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > > Montavilla47: > > But isn that Snape? He's disciplined, controlled, and intellectual > > with a very blind spot when it comes to himself. But, I think that > > his memories do show that he understands his own culpability > > in losing Lily--both times. > snip > > From that point on, his journey is one of slowly (very slowly) > > expanding his circle of concern from Lily outwards, until, by > > HBP, he's protecting everyone he can from Voldemort. > Potioncat: > It seems Snape's mission to protect Lily's son just barely kept him > alive. He wears black and lives in a dungeon two-- big hints that he > was in mourning and imprisoned emotionally. His occupation--perhaps not > one he would have chosen--kept him out of the world most of the year. > But even if he had the inclination to move about among people, who > could he befriend? Montavilla47: I agree that Snape doesn't have much opportunity to grow--and I like the symbolism of the black clothing and living in a prison. (I always imagined a crucifix on his wall and hair shirt and all that--even before DH came out.) But he's also put in the position where his job demands that he take care of children. Harry's filter doesn't allow for the possibility of showing much compassion on Snape's part-- except for the famous "favoritism" he shows his Slytherins, but I like to think his *professional* care for his students could have led to a genuine affection for them--and that allowed him to get somewhat beyond Lily. Harry, of course, exists in the deepest part of the psychic wound that is Lily, so all he can see is Snape's defense mechanisms. He's never in a position to see the positive side. Potioncat: > His situation wasn't as bad as Sirius's, but it was similar. He was > alone, even among others. If the Potters had lived, both Sirius and > Severus would have had the chance to actually grow up. Had Lily lived, > Severus would have gotten over her. Montavilla47: I like to think so. Because, frankly, he could have done *much* better. :) From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Nov 23 16:04:58 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 16:04:58 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184975 > Potioncat: > > His situation wasn't as bad as Sirius's, but it was similar. He was alone, even among others. If the Potters had lived, both Sirius and Severus would have had the chance to actually grow up. Had Lily lived, Severus would have gotten over her. > > Montavilla47: > I like to think so. Because, frankly, he could have done > *much* better. > > :) Pippin: It's hardly fair to compare Snape as he might have been to the Lily of SWM. Snape at sixteen was no prize either. They were both behaving the way Dumbledore says people often behave, IMO, each thinking that what they have to say is most important and disregarding everything the other person is trying to tell them. Alla: No it does not overlook that. It seemed to me that Potioncat was comparing Snape's situation and Sirius' situation and I said that I can see distant similarities in their mindsets. However, I stand by my assertion that Snape's situation was not just *not as bad* as Sirius, but much better and easier on Snape. Pippin: Objectively, of course there's no comparison between the comforts of Hogwarts and Azkaban. But if Snape can't or won't avail himself of those comforts, he's no better off than Sisyphus in his pool. Snape had nothing to live for until he agreed to protect Harry. Sirius did not want to die, but did not have the will to escape Azkaban until he realized that Harry's life depended on it. The physical descriptions of the two men, both gaunt, with sickly complexions and deadened eyes, hint at the similarities in their situations. Sirius's deterioration at GP hints that even if Snape had lived to be reconciled with those who thought he had betrayed them, he wouldn't really have recovered. Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 23 17:57:21 2008 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 23 Nov 2008 17:57:21 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/23/2008, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1227463041.11.26758.m53@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184976 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday November 23, 2008 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2008 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leahstill at hotmail.com Sun Nov 23 18:11:50 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:11:50 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184977 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: The physical > descriptions of the two men, both gaunt, with sickly complexions and > deadened eyes, hint at the similarities in their situations. > > Sirius's deterioration at GP hints that even if Snape had lived to be > reconciled with those who thought he had betrayed them, he wouldn't > really have recovered. > Leah: I'm not sure. Sirius has really swapped one prison for another in returning to his childhood home (anothe paralell as Snape still spends time at Spinners End). Sirius is trapped with the mother he thought he had escaped as a teenager. If Sirius had been able to have Harry live with him, and reached an understanding with Kreacher over Regulus, things might have been different for him. Had Snape lived and been cleared of all charges, I think he might have been able to make a fresh start, albeit it would have taken a while. He would have had to find a new purpose, but perhaps the fact that Lily's son had after all remained alive would have helped him to let go. He has a certain dogged determination about him, so I don't see him disintegrating in quite the same way as Sirius, but certainly I would think that had he only been partially cleared and had to remain about Hogwarts with its memories, he would have been likely to remain isolated and insular. Leah From lizzyben04 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 23 18:12:43 2008 From: lizzyben04 at yahoo.com (lizzyben04) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:12:43 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184978 > Alla: > > So I am replying to myself and even spending a post on it because I > just realized that I can make a parallel between what Snape seemed to > be experiencing while in Hogwarts and Sirius' life. When Sirius was > stuck in Grimmauld place, depressed, etc, and even lashing out at > Harry couple times unfairly, sure I can see the parallels between > Snape and him I suppose. Both of them manipulated somewhat by > Dumbledore for the **good of the cause** or to be more precise for > the good of Harry and both technically can leave but will not because > of Harry. Ugh. lizzyben: I have a somewhat-predictable take on the matter: Blame Dumbledore. Both Sirius & Snape are put into a kind of prison by Dumbledore, physical and mental, which they cannot leave. Sirius is forced to stay by his loyalty to the Order & James, & Snape by his guilt & love for Lily. DD uses these emotions to manipulate both to accomplish his purposes. And there's no question that Azkaban is worse than Hogwarts. But I think it's interesting that Sirius actually came out of Azkaban pretty well, all things considered. He was sharp, funny, goal-oriented & energetic, even when eating rats in a cave. It was only after being imprisioned by DD in GP that Sirius begins to deteriorate rapidly mentally. Because Azkaban is a physical prison, but DD puts Sirius into a mental prison & that's what he could not take. Sirius functions well w/an enemy to fight (and hate), which kept him going in Azkaban. But once imprisoned in GH, Sirius was left w/o an enemy to fight, or a purpose in life, surrounded by all the psychic trauma of his youth. DD placed him in a position where goal-oriented, energetic Sirius had no goals, no job & no activity. So Sirius is imprisoned mentally w/only his own memories, griefs, hatreds & regrets. There's a number of parallels between Snape & Sirius's prisons - both were emotionally damaged people, who depended upon DD & were imprisoned by DD in the home of their youth. And there's an uncanny ability of DD's to imprison them in the very memories of the past that will destroy their ability to escape or find an independent future. And what was DD's first reaction when asked to protect James & Lily? "Hmmm... Well, why don't we put them into a prison?" There's an orphan child that needs DD's care... why don't we put him in a home where he'll be imprisoned under the stairs? There's a emotionally disturbed boy attending Hogwarts... why don't we let him return to imprisonment in the orphanage? This can only end well. And the pattern all traces back to the first thread - There's a traumatized, emotionally damaged sister who needs DD's care & protection... why don't we imprison her in the family house & hide her away from sight so I can get on w/my grand plans? This is what DD does - it's his psychic trauma that he re-enacts upon all those who surround & follow him. Because DD is ultimately the one imprisoned, trapped w/his past memories, regrets, & griefs in a mental prison of his own making. lizzyben From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 23 18:30:59 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:30:59 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184979 > > Potioncat: > > > His situation wasn't as bad as Sirius's, but it was similar. He > was alone, even among others. If the Potters had lived, both Sirius > and Severus would have had the chance to actually grow up. Had Lily > lived, Severus would have gotten over her. > > > > Montavilla47: > > I like to think so. Because, frankly, he could have done > > *much* better. > > > > :) > > Pippin: > It's hardly fair to compare Snape as he might have been to the Lily of > SWM. Snape at sixteen was no prize either. They were both behaving the > way Dumbledore says people often behave, IMO, each thinking that what > they have to say is most important and disregarding everything the > other person is trying to tell them. Montavilla47: Yes, but it's pretty obvious to me that even comparing the Lily-of-then to the Snape-of-then, she wasn't in love with him--even if she liked him as a friend. That's a horrible outlook for a romantic relationship. Had he gotten beyond her, he might have met someone he loved who would appreciate himself for himself. That would have been much better for him, no matter who it was. Of course, I'm basing that on a Snape who realized the error of Voldemort's ways. Were he still a loyal follower of the Dark Lord, then I doubt he'd make a good partner for anybody--except a fellow Death Eater, which would be far worse than Lily. So, I'm probably expecting the impossible, since Canonical Snape would still be a Death Eater if he had gotten over Lily. It's a paradox. :) > Pippin: > Snape had nothing to live for until he agreed to protect Harry. Sirius > did not want to die, but did not have the will to escape Azkaban until > he realized that Harry's life depended on it. The physical > descriptions of the two men, both gaunt, with sickly complexions and > deadened eyes, hint at the similarities in their situations. > > Sirius's deterioration at GP hints that even if Snape had lived to be > reconciled with those who thought he had betrayed them, he wouldn't > really have recovered. Montavilla47: But Sirius's deterioration was due to his being stuck in a very horrible situation--basically having to go back to live as an unhappy teenager in his parents' house. The portrait of his mother treated him even worse than his real mother would--since she would have the capacity to change, while the portrait probably doesn't. He was better when he *was* reconciled to those who thought he had betrayed them, namely Lupin and Harry. During GoF, he seemed capable and fairly happy. It's when he was forced back into the place he thought he'd escaped when he was sixteen that he started to deteriorate. Interestingly, Snape is also living in the house of his parents. But he seems more comfortable. The demons of his childhood appear to have been exorcized. And, even if the furniture is shabby, he has his books and his wine, and he's not ashamed to let even the aristocratic Narcissa Malfoy in. So, while Snape seems unable to go beyond his school days, he's obviously reconciled with his childhood. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 23 18:40:38 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:40:38 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184980 > lizzyben: > > I have a somewhat-predictable take on the matter: Blame Dumbledore. Alla: Heh. Lizzyben: > Both Sirius & Snape are put into a kind of prison by Dumbledore, > physical and mental, which they cannot leave. Sirius is forced to stay > by his loyalty to the Order & James, & Snape by his guilt & love for > Lily. DD uses these emotions to manipulate both to accomplish his > purposes. Alla: Yes. Lizzyben: > And there's no question that Azkaban is worse than Hogwarts. But I > think it's interesting that Sirius actually came out of Azkaban pretty > well, all things considered. He was sharp, funny, goal-oriented & > energetic, even when eating rats in a cave. It was only after being > imprisioned by DD in GP that Sirius begins to deteriorate rapidly > mentally. Alla: Small disagreement, I do not think that he emerged from Azkaban well at all, I think he seems to be recovered well enough in GoF, but to me it shows that having people around whom heloves helped him that much. However, sure I agree that he could not take GP at all. And I agree with almost everything I snipped. Lizzyben: > And the pattern all traces back to the first thread - There's a > traumatized, emotionally damaged sister who needs DD's care > & protection... why don't we imprison her in the family house & hide > her away from sight so I can get on w/my grand plans? This is what DD > does - it's his psychic trauma that he re-enacts upon all those who > surround & follow him. Because DD is ultimately the one imprisoned, > trapped w/his past memories, regrets, & griefs in a mental prison of > his own making. Alla: Eh, please do not be shocked, but I think it is a brilliant observation. But then I am left with a thought - sure, I can pity somebody like Dumbledore, but I cannot help but think that we are supposed not just pity but admire him and well, I am not sure what is to admire. Especially since I do not think that we even hear the apology for that thing he was doing to people around him. In fact I am pretty sure we are not. Alla From catlady at wicca.net Sun Nov 23 19:50:51 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:50:51 -0000 Subject: Chapter 33 discussion (Snape's Patronus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184981 Zara wrote in : << It seems you believe that ALbus knew the form of Snape's Patronus. What greates this impression for you? I walked away from "The Prince's Tale" with the impression he might not have known this until Snape showed it to him in their conversation following the argment in the Forest. Albus's reactions ("After all these years?") suggested to me this was news to him. If they'd been routinely using it to communicate, I would find this an odd response. It would mean, somehow, that Albus knew the form but had never particualrly considered what this betokened abotu Snape's current emotions/motives. >> To me, 'After all these years?' did not refer to Lily being Snape's Patronus, but to Snape's interest in protecting Harry being only for Lily's sake. I imagine that Albus was hoping, not just joking, that Snape had developed some fondness for the boy after all these years, which Snape would embarrassedly rather than angrily try to conceal by muttering something about 'I thought you were the one who said that all lives are valuable.' From catlady at wicca.net Sun Nov 23 19:57:35 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:57:35 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184982 Alla wrote in : << I think it is a brilliant observation. >> I agree that Lizzyben's analysis is brilliant. Very literary. << But then I am left with a thought - sure, I can pity somebody like Dumbledore, but I cannot help but think that we are supposed not just pity but admire him and well, I am not sure what is to admire. >> His willilngness to die for the side he believed in? That his plan for victory over the current Big Bad was successful? That he inspired many people to believe in goodness and try to be good? From catlady at wicca.net Sun Nov 23 20:04:34 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:04:34 -0000 Subject: Still the Prank Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184983 Carol wrote in : << However much severus may have wanted to verify his theory and find out what the Marauders were up to and regardless of his reason or reasons for wanting to do so, he could not have gotten past the Whomping Willow had Sirius not told him how to do so >> Y'know, if Sevvie oten observed (from hiding) Pomfrey escorting Remus to the Whomping Willow, poking the Willow with a long stick so it stopped whomping, and then Remus going down into a hole, why didn't he figure out from watching Pomfrey how to put the Willow on pause, and not needed one word from Sirius? Even if he couldn't see exactly where Pomfrey poked the long stick, he could have gotten a long stick of his own and found the right spot by trial and error. Potioncat wrote in : << Is it canon that Severus knew the Marauders entered the tunnel? Do we know if he ever even saw Remus and Pomphrey go under the willow before that night? >> I've always thought it was foolish for DD to put the tunnel entrance outdoors where just anyone could see Pomfrey escorting Remus there. He should have put the entrance somewhere inside the castle, hidden by stone walls, accessible from Pomfrey's private office, a closet, or some other small enclosed place in the hospital section. Zanooda wrote in : << I don't think James could transform inside the tunnel, which is usually described as very narrow. BTW, the width of the tunnel is a puzzle to me. In DH the Trio has to crawl inside it on their hands and knees, but in PoA grown-ups Lupin and Sirius don't have to crawl to get out of the Shack. Did the tunnel shrink :-)? >> Maybe one of the protections on the tunnel is that it is usually very small (altho' not small *enough* to actually protect anyone from going in or out of it) but it becomes large when someone says the password. So then Remus would know the password to use it when entering and leaving the Shack, and he would have told it to the Marauders. Sirius wouldn't have told it to Severus, because part of the 'joke' was imagining Severus crawling on his belly in the dirt in a place where Sirius was accustomed to walk upright like a biped. James would have used the password to expand the tunnel when he came running or broom-riding to rescue Sevvie, which should have tipped Sevvie off that James knew more about this tunnel than Sevvie did. (I vote against broom-riding because I imagine that James transformed.) Potioncat wrote in : << I don't think the werewolf can get out of the Shrieking Shack into the tunnel by himself. >> I imagine that there was a door (trapdoor?) from Shack to tunnel that normally required hands to open from the inside, but the werewolf, driven madder than usual by the scent of humans in his own tunnel, managed to tear it about by brute strength and come into the tunnel, so that James and Severus were in real danger. The time it took even a werewolf to beat up on the door until it collapsed provided time for James and Severus to have a dramatic conversation. << I don't think the boys (James and Severus) could have outrun him, unless James used some magic to block the tunnel as they went. >> To me, the magic he used to block the tunnel was his large, antlered, Animagus self. Ceridwen wrote in : << If Snape didn't know the tunnel led to the shack, he may not have thought the other three Marauders went through to be with Remus, just to get out of the school. Remus would have told them how to get through so they could have some fun against the rules, since they were his friends. Sirius doesn't say Snape knew there was a werewolf in a locked building on the other side, to my recollection (I may be wrong), only that Snape suspected Remus was a werewolf and Sirius told him how to get into the tunnel. Something unspoken might be that yes, Snape thought Remus was a werewolf. Snape also thought, but did not necessarily connect the two incidents, that the Marauders were going through the tunnel for some illicit fun of their own. The possibility, to me, is that Snape thought there was a field or other open space - the Great Outdoors - at the other end of the tunnel and Remus was taken somewhere nearby while the Marauders headed for Hogsmeade. >> Oh, dear, a completely new thought. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Nov 23 20:29:37 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:29:37 -0000 Subject: Still More Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184984 Cat wrote in : << Secondly, if my maths are correct, he was a Death Eater for at least two years. During that time, it's hard to imagine that he wasn't involved with some really nasty, terrible things. I suppose it was just a decision on JKR's part to limit what we learn about that chapter of his life, but I'd think that some of those memories would remain with Severus as far worse than anything he ever experienced at Hogwarts. >> Welcome to the conversation, Cat. Other than that, this is a forbidden 'I agree' reply. Potioncat wrote in : << Had Lily lived, Severus would have gotten over her. >> You can't count on that. This is a book, Rowling is a romantic author, and Snape is obsessive and good at perceiving only what he wants to perceive (e.g. Harry as a James-like bully). Montavilla47 wrote in : << I like to think so. Because, frankly, he could have done *much* better. >> Could he? I'm not suggesting he would be unpopular, but it seems to me that there aren't many witches in canon of whom readers think well; all I can think of is Luna. Maybe witches *much* better than Lily don't exist. ============= Lots of people mentioning similarities between Sirius and Severus, altho' not concentrating their similarities of appearance. I've always liked the idea (I read it on list, rather than thinking it up myself) that Sirius and Severus were half-brothers. I elaborated the theory: Poor Eileen married a Muggle because she 'had to get married' and all wizards warded off her Love Potions and Confundus Charms. You'd think that her Love Potions would have been good enough to entrap a Muggle who had a little more money, if not a kinder and more sober one. Severus and Sirius knew about each other because when they were around 5, Eileen took little Sevvie with her to beg Sirius's father to give her enough money to live separately from the Muggle. Sirius's father refused to acknowledge the child and said sarcastic things about Eileen trying to pass off her Half-Blood as a wizarding bastard, nasty enough things that little Sevvie started to cry. Little Siri saw all this and taunted that child by calling him Snivellus. So there was an undercurrent, not stated in canon, when Sirius and Severus noticed (recognized each other) that they were seated in the same compartment of the Hogwarts Express. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 23 20:56:07 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 20:56:07 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again/ Dumbledore's admirable qualities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184985 > Leah: I'm not sure. Sirius has really swapped one prison for another > in returning to his childhood home (anothe paralell as Snape still > spends time at Spinners End). Sirius is trapped with the mother he > thought he had escaped as a teenager. If Sirius had been able to > have Harry live with him, and reached an understanding with Kreacher > over Regulus, things might have been different for him. Alla: Especially since we already see Sirius recovering in GoF and it is the reentrapment in Grimmauld place causes him to get worse again IMO. So yes, I agree. Alla before: > << But then I am left with a thought - sure, I can pity somebody like > Dumbledore, but I cannot help but think that we are supposed not just > pity but admire him and well, I am not sure what is to admire. >> Catlady: > His willilngness to die for the side he believed in? Alla: I suppose that is one of those few qualities. Catlady: > That his plan for victory over the current Big Bad was successful? Alla: Oh, no, not really. I am glad that *the plan* was successful, do not get me wrong. However I despise too much "the plan" or what I would describe as "let's make sure Harry will be trained enough to go and die later", and I certainly cannot admire Dumbledore for it. And well, I do not really consider it to be a worthy plan and think that Dumbledore should have at least a) try to do so much more independent of relying on Harry and b) treating Harry so much differently. >From me Dumbledore gets no admiration for that. IMO of course. Catlady: > That he inspired many people to believe in goodness and try to be good? Alla: That certainly can be an admirable quality, however I am not sure whom are you talking about here. Whom did Dumbledore inspire to believe in goodness and try to be good? We are not talking about Dumbledore inspiring Snape here I hope? Because I would not call what Dumbledore does to Snape when he comes to him an inspiration to be good. IMO of course. I can certainly agree that Dumbledore made people believe in **him**, but to me that does not equal believe in goodness. Stalin made millions believe in him too. Iroh from Avatar certainly inspired Zuco to believe in goodness and be good IMO. Dumbledore, well, not sure how anything he did counts as what you described. JMO, Alla From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sun Nov 23 23:19:42 2008 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 23:19:42 -0000 Subject: Still the Prank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184986 Ceridwen wrote in > : > > << If Snape didn't know the tunnel led to the shack, he may not have > thought the other three Marauders went through to be with Remus, just > to get out of the school. Remus would have told them how to get > through so they could have some fun against the rules, since they were > his friends. Sirius doesn't say Snape knew there was a werewolf in a > locked building on the other side, to my recollection (I may be > wrong), only that Snape suspected Remus was a werewolf and Sirius told > him how to get into the tunnel. Something unspoken might be that yes, > Snape thought Remus was a werewolf. Snape also thought, but did not > necessarily connect the two incidents, that the Marauders were going > through the tunnel for some illicit fun of their own. The possibility, > to me, is that Snape thought there was a field or other open space - > the Great Outdoors - at the other end of the tunnel and Remus was > taken somewhere nearby while the Marauders headed for Hogsmeade. >> Catlady: > Oh, dear, a completely new thought. Ceridwen: I wish I could take the credit for this, but I can't. The credit goes to Pippin in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/184962 I am going to think about it for a while. It's a new direction from the one we usually assume, and it would change the discussion significantly, in my opinion. Thanks, Pippin! Ceridwen. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 24 03:05:13 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 03:05:13 -0000 Subject: Still the Prank In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184987 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Y'know, if Sevvie often observed (from hiding) Pomfrey escorting > Remus to the Whomping Willow, poking the Willow with a long stick > so it stopped whomping, and then Remus going down into a hole, why > didn't he figure out from watching Pomfrey how to put the Willow > on pause, and not needed one word from Sirius? zanooda: I've always had an impression that Snape saw Madam Pomfrey take Lupin to the Willow not "often", but only once, from Lupin's words: " ... Snape had seen me crossing the grounds with Madam Pomfrey one evening as she led me toward the Whomping Willow to transform. Sirius thought it would be - er - amusing, to tell Snape all he had to do was prod the knot on the tree trunk with a long stick, and he'd be able to get in after me" (p.357 Am.ed.). >From this (especially "one evening" part :-)) I gathered, maybe wrongly, that it all happened in one evening. Snape saw Pomfrey and Lupin go to the Willow from afar (so he didn't notice *how* they got in), then Sirius, who was also around, noticed Snape and told him how to get in. I may be totally wrong about this, of course, it's just my impression :-). > Catlady wrote: > Maybe one of the protections on the tunnel is that it is usually > very small (altho' not small *enough* to actually protect anyone > from going in or out of it) but it becomes large when someone > says the password. zanooda: Very good idea :-). From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Mon Nov 24 04:15:02 2008 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 04:15:02 -0000 Subject: Snape and Dumbledore in GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184989 2 questions in GoF: 1. Doesn't it seem quite odd that Snape never discussed with DD the problem of Moody (fake one, of course) searching his office, especially when he was told that it was DD who gave the orders? 2. Moody has told DD that Snape was the one who told Moody about the Barty Crouch Sr issue i.e. the night when Harry and Krum find Barty Crouch Sr in a strange condition and when the fake Moody arrives there saying had Snape told him everything. Seems like Dumbledore has never discussed this point with Snape. The Prince's Tale chapter gave me an impression that both of them always discussed all significant incidents during their one-on-one conversations. So, post-DH, these 2 points looked extremely unlikely to me. Has this been explained somewhere in canon?? PS: Apologies for having inadvertently sent the earlier post even before I completed typing it out. I deleted the post but I guess it would have triggered the group mail anyway. ~Joey From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Nov 24 05:37:06 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 05:37:06 -0000 Subject: Snape and Dumbledore in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184990 > Joey: > 1. Doesn't it seem quite odd that Snape never discussed with DD the > problem of Moody (fake one, of course) searching his office, > especially when he was told that it was DD who gave the orders? Zara: Not necessarily. Suppose Snape was less sure than he claimed that DD never authorized such a search. What would be the point of bringing it up? There's also the point that, based on the evidence, Snape spent the previous year (PoA) griping that the new DADA teacher (Lupin, an old Order of the Phoenix member, someone Albus has known from childhood) was unreliable and was likely to help out the Bad Guy. It may occur to Snape that Albus will not be open to a renewal of regular complaints about the new DADA teacher (Moody, an old Order of the Phoenix member, distinguished retired Auror and friend of Albus) seeming wonky too. At least not without better evidence than "the paranoid SOB searched my office." Especially since we learn in GoF that Moody was a skeptic where Snape's "return" was concerned. Thus, Moody could have searched the office on his own initiative, and be lying to Snape merely to annoy the ex-DE he dislikes and distrusts. > Joey: > 2. Moody has told DD that Snape was the one who told Moody about the > Barty Crouch Sr issue i.e. the night when Harry and Krum find Barty > Crouch Sr in a strange condition and when the fake Moody arrives there > saying had Snape told him everything. Seems like Dumbledore has never > discussed this point with Snape. Zara: I am sorry, I do not understand what you think there was to discuss. The chronology - Harry sees Crouch Sr. He comes to the Headmaster's office. He is met outside it by Snape, and they argue until Albus shows up. Harry explains what he saw, and Albus leaves with Harry to investigate while Snape stays behind. Crouch appears in the Forest and states, "Damn leg," he said furiously. "Would've been here quicker . . . what's happened? Snape said something about Crouch -" Which is not exactly "Snape told me everything". This is important, because, as ALbus knows well, Snape does not know "everything", Harry explained more as they walked. But he does know enough to direct Moody to the Forest and mention Crouch. My take from these facts is that Moody did indeed meet Snape, and Snape did indeed communicate the information that something was wrong with Crouch in the Forest. Moody would not have risked mentioning a random faculty member who Albus himself would know had no way of knowing. And the only way I can see for him to know Snape was the safe person to mention, was if he indeed saw Snape. Personally, I think Snape was only being his usual delightful self in his argument with Harry, and had no interest in obstructing the investigation, so when he realized Albus was very worried about Crouch's appearance, he duly went to Moody and told him what had happened, knowing that Albus would wish his assistance (as, indeed, Albus did). It is also possible Moody simply bumped into Snape and asked him what was up in a non-specific way and Snape then explained. Either way, I think if Albus had bothered to check (and since Snape did know about Crouch, and no one but he, Snape, and Harry knew that, I don't see why Albus even would), Moody's story would have checked out with Snape. > Joey: > The Prince's Tale chapter gave me an impression that both of them > always discussed all significant incidents during their one-on-one > conversations. So, post-DH, these 2 points looked extremely unlikely > to me. Has this been explained somewhere in canon?? Zara: I agree that "The Prince's Tale" suggests Albus and Snape discussed all significant things together. I don't agree that this means we have been shown all such discussions of significant things. In fact, I can describe discussions they had, that we were not shown. Examples: in "The Prince's Tale" Albus's portrait claims Voldemort believes Snape is very well informed. In Ch. 1, DH, Snape refers to a "source" and Voldemort knows what he is talking about. I deduce a conversation in which Snape and Albus discuss this source and what Voldemort knows about it. Also in "The Prince's Tale", it is clear in the Ring scene that Snape and Albus have had a prior discussion of Draco's mission. It is clear that ALbus by HBP has directed Snape to leak non-essential information to Voldemort - we never see an instance of this, however, even though it is mentioned in the argument in the Forest. We never see any discussions of Occlumency lessons between Snape and Albus. They existed - statements made by Albus at the end of OotP include knowledge about memories Snape saw (like the one of Rookwood). Nor do we see the communication of Snape and Albus towards the end of OotP (to which Albus refers, also in conversation with Harry). And there are other likely conversations I could go on to list... The memories of "The Prince's Tale" are not exhaustive. They were selected by Snape, in my opinion, for one of three reasons. 1) To clear Snape of crimes that might prevent Harry from believing him. (This would include the PS/SS scene, in case Snape thinks Harry still suspects he was after the Stone. And the GoF scene, to establish he was a spy, the Ring and Argument in the Forest scenes that show he was ordered to kill Albus and did so unwillingly, and 7 Potters scenes again to show this was for Albus). 2) To prove that Snape had truly helped the good side and Harry. (Again, the Ring scene in which he saved Albus, also the "Always" and Sword scenes so that Harry would know the Doe was his Patronus, a real-life thing even tampering with memories could not fake - Snape could perhaps be remotely suspected of the ability to fake a memory...but to fake THAT memory, he would need to know what the Doe did for Harry, and no one does except the Trio and the mystery wizard who sent her - i. e. Snape). 3) To provide Harry with a full and frank account of Snape's relationship with Harry, including its roots in Snape's past relationship with Lily. (Hence the inclusion of facts like who told the prophecy to Voldemort which could just as likely be expected to give Hary fresh reasons to hate Snape, the unflattering fact that Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily, and a scene of Snape complaining about Harry to ALbus). This last, I believe Snape wanted for personal reasons. Tons of meaningful spy conversations that don't contribute in these three areas, we never got to see. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Nov 24 13:34:30 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 13:34:30 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184992 Potioncat, responding to the thread in general, but starting with http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/184968 > Alla: > > Why? Who says that to be loyal to Voldemort he has to present himself > as loner? He can always IMO say later that I was just pretending to > be loyal to those people to spy for you my lord. I mean, Lucius > Malfoy for example have not decide to behave like Snape and ?? maintained contacts even with people he despised, did he not? Potioncat: The difference between Lucius and Snape is that Lucius is out for himself. He doesn't seem to expect LV's return. Lucius's friends are likely to be Pureblood extremists any way. He does of course, associate with anyone necessary to reach his own goals. We know he's at the MoM hobnobbing with the officials. But he doesn't invite them to his house. He introduces Narcissa to Fudge at the Quidditch World Cup. It's not that having certain friends would make it harder for Snape to convince LV of his loyalty---although it might.--It's more what he might have to do to those friends in his pretend service to LV. Severus has to keep in mind that he may have to betray a friend in order to carry out DD's mission as LV's man. And look at it this way, whichever side his friend is on, he might have to betray that friend. If he maintains a friendship with his DE friends, he knows that when their leader returns, he will be at war with them. If he makes new friendships with non-LV supporters, he may have to harm them as he pretends to support LV. I think he did have a friendship of sorts with the Hogwart's staff. That's when we see the conflict. In "Flight of the Prince" he has to get himself through a battle between teachers and DEs without hurting teachers or students while protecting Draco. "The Sacking of Severus Snape:" he has to defend himself against some formidable "former" friends without hurting them. DH chapter 1: he has to watch Charity die without revealing so much as a flicker of concern. He also seems to have continued his friendship with the Malfoys--I think--and he has to ignore LV's treatment of them. I don't think he can get too close to his students. He can't make an effort to turn his Supremacist Slytherins and still face LV. I wonder if Snape has any guilt over his students who joined LV? And I wonder what the Malfoys' opinion of Snape is now that it's all over? So he has his own emotional state of grief and guilt, combined with a limited support system. It isn't much different from the emotional state we see with Merope and Tonks. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/184970 > Alla: > > No it does not overlook that. It seemed to me that Potioncat was > comparing Snape's situation and Sirius' situation and I said that I > can see distant similarities in their mindsets. However, I stand by > my assertion that Snape's situation was not just *not as bad* as ?? Sirius, but much better and easier on Snape. Potioncat: My point was that Sirius was emotionally damaged in prison. JKR herself says so. IMHO Severus was also stunted by his own emotional prison. I??m not trying to start a "Sirius this and Severus that" type of debate. (Which isn't to say I won't join in ) Someone posted that Severus wouldn't have gotten over Lily because this is JKR writing the story. And that's a very good point. (I'd attribute that idea if I could find the post.) Again, he's a male version of Merope and Tonks. It still seems to me that he had "gotten over" Lily for several years. She ended the friendship in 5th year. So there was what--about 4 years of no relationship? All the while he's involved in activities that would harm her. She was actively opposing LV; he was a DE. He may have held a warm spot in his heart for Lily, but he wasn't pining for her. It was his guilt at her death that rekindled the intense emotions. As to Pippin's posts, all I can say is, "Me too." From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Nov 24 15:17:33 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:17:33 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184993 > Potioncat: > If he maintains a friendship with his DE friends, he knows that when > their leader returns, he will be at war with them. Zara: I think he did betray his old friends, in the first war. We are not given any specific instances, but he was a spy for Albus on Voldemort and the Death Eaters...how could he avoud it? Though I don't think it is avoidance of such future betrayals that would have kept him from pursuing new frienships with other Death Eaters, after the first war. I don't think he would still have *wanted* to make friends with them. (Nor should he). > Potioncat: > If he makes new > friendships with non-LV supporters, he may have to harm them as he > pretends to support LV. Zara: Even if he didn't, he'd have to lie to them, about things that really matter to him, both between the wars and after Voldemort's return, hardly conducive to friendship. It seems to me that within these constraints he did "make friends". Albus was the one man who knew everything, and I feel Snape came to care for him. Certainly, his agreeing to Albus's "one great favor" suggests this to me (and, of course, illustrates your point - Snape ended up having to kill him in his spy role). > Potioncat: > I think he did have a friendship of sorts with the Hogwart's staff. Zara: I agree about that. And it was, quite understandably, shattered in DH. That's the problem. People "reformed Snape" would find worthy of attempting to befriend, are people who would be absolutely disgusted with him when it seemed he returned to Voldemort. > Potioncat: > It still seems to me that he had "gotten over" Lily for several > years. She ended the friendship in 5th year. So there was what-- about > 4 years of no relationship? Zara: I completely agree. Sev embraced the advice of the "get over her" crowd with gusto. His friend dumped him, so he did exactly what you're supposed to do to get over such things. He fell back on his other friendships and pursued their common interests with gusto. If he'd gotten over her any more than he did, we'd have had no story. Somehow, his inability to stand by and watch his former friend die as a consequence of his own actions does not strike me as evidence of arrested development, emotional damage, or pitiful weakness. From leahstill at hotmail.com Mon Nov 24 15:34:41 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:34:41 -0000 Subject: Headmaster for a day (was Prank WAS :Re: CHAPDISC: DH33, The Princ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184994 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: >> I don't think he can get too close to his students. He can't make an > effort to turn his Supremacist Slytherins and still face LV. I wonder > if Snape has any guilt over his students who joined LV? And I wonder > what the Malfoys' opinion of Snape is now that it's all over? > > So he has his own emotional state of grief and guilt, combined with a > limited support system. It isn't much different from the emotional > state we see with Merope and Tonks. Leah: (Agreeing with everything that I've snipped). I think the above are interesting questions. I agree Snape couldn't get too close to his students and therefore,on the face of it, giving Slytherin a Head of House who couldn't openly speak against Voldemort seems another failure of responsibility towards that house by Dumbledore. However,do we in fact know how many of Snape's Slytherins joined in the second war? The Death Eaters we see in GOF are obviously all old hands, but the 'new' ones we get in later books, Yaxley and the Carrows for example, are all IIRC cited by Snape in 'Spinners End' as being ones who didn't look for Voldemort after his disappearance and therefore they were also old timers from Voldywar 1. The only one I think not named by Snape is Thorfinn Rowle and from his name he may be ex-Durmstrang. At any rate there's nothing to say he was a Slytherin taught by Snape. That leaves Stan Shunpike (did he go to Hogwarts?), Draco (who is made a Death Eater to serve Voldemort's purposes) and possibly Crabbe - do we know if he was marked or not? So as far as we are told, Slytherin's record of producing Death Eaters seems less under Snape than it was under Slughorn, who was House Master to Snape himself, Bellatrix, Lucius, the LeStranges, Regulus, Mulciber, Avery, Rosier, Wilkes at least. Some of that must be due to people knowing more about Voldemort in the nineties than the did in the sixties and seventies. I wonder if Snape managed anti Death Eater propaganda by being the way he was - no one was likely to say, "How about becoming a Death Eater - after all, Snape was one,and everyone thinks he's a really great guy". The only counter-suggestion is Voldemort telling Lucius that Draco did not join him 'like the rest of the Slytherins'. That always seemed confused and ambiguous to me. Was it meant to be 'Just like the rest of the Slytherins, Draco didn't join me' or 'Unlike the rest of the Slytherins, Draco didn't join me". And then there's JKR's interview statement about Slughorn fetching reinforcements. As to the Malfoys, I would really have like to know more about the Snape/Malfoy relationship. Clearly by HBP, Narcissa's chief motivation was saving her son, and having lied to the Dark Lord herself she can hardly complain about Snape, who in fact has saved Draco twice. I think Lucius was so badly treated in DH that he probably would have forgiven Snape's betrayal as well. I wonder what Draco made of it all? > > Someone posted that Severus wouldn't have gotten over Lily because > this is JKR writing the story. And that's a very good point. (I'd > attribute that idea if I could find the post.) Again, he's a male > version of Merope and Tonks. > > It still seems to me that he had "gotten over" Lily for several > years. She ended the friendship in 5th year. So there was what-- about > 4 years of no relationship? All the while he's involved in activities > that would harm her. She was actively opposing LV; he was a DE. He > may have held a warm spot in his heart for Lily, but he wasn't pining > for her. It was his guilt at her death that rekindled the intense > emotions. > > As to Pippin's posts, all I can say is, "Me too." Leah: All true, I think. I suspec there were a few 'women of purer blood' during Snape's Death Eater days. Leah > From sherriola at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 16:20:29 2008 From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 16:20:29 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184995 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space) HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com --------------------------------------------------- Chapter Discussion: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter 34, THE FOREST AGAIN The chapter opens with Harry lying on the carpet in the headmaster's office. He knows the truth at last, knows he must die in order to defeat Voldemort. As he lies on the floor, he is aware of his heart beating and wonders how many beats it has left. He feels terror wash over him, noting that his will to live had always been stronger than his fear of death. Yet he does not consider running away from what must be done. He wishes he could have died before, on the last night he left Privet Drive, or like his parents, or having jumped in front of a wand to save someone else, a sudden unexpected death, instead of having to walk knowingly to his death. He notices his fingers trembling and tries to control them, even though no one can see him. He sits up, thinking about Dumbledore and his plan. He knows now why Dumbledore had taken time to get to know him. He understands that Dumbledore knew he would not duck out of the responsibility, that he would not let anyone else die for him, now that he knows what must be done. He worries that the job is not completely done, because the snake still lives, but at least with the other horcruxes destroyed, it could be easy. This is why Dumbledore wanted him to tell Ron and Hermione, so if he died before it was complete, someone else could finish the task of destroying the horcruxes. Thinking of Ron and Hermione, Harry determines that he will not tell them, he will not say goodbye and waste valuable time arguing. Looking at his watch, he sees that half the time Voldemort has given has passed. He notices how fast his heart is beating, thinking that perhaps his heart is trying to make up a lifetime of beats. He does not look back as he leaves the office, closing the door behind him. As he walks through the castle, he notices its emptiness, that even the portraits are empty. Still, he puts on the Invisibility Cloak. Part of him wishes that he will be sensed or stopped, but the Cloak is impenetrable, and he reaches the front door easily. Harry nearly runs into Neville and Oliver Wood, carrying the body of Colin Creevey. Harry thinks that Colin must have snuck back and that he looks tiny in death. Oliver takes the body from Neville and moves into the Great Hall. Neville goes back to look for more bodies. Harry takes one last look at the Great Hall, at the people moving around in there. He is hoping for one last glimpse of those he loves: Ron, Hermione, Ginny or any Weasley. He does not see any of them, and he thinks that it is just as well because he might not ever stop looking. He turns away and walks down the steps. Pulling off the Cloak, Harry approaches Neville. Neville asks Harry where he is going alone and asks if he is planning to hand himself over to Voldemort. Harry says no, lying, and assures Neville that it is all part of the plan. He tells Neville about the snake and asks him to kill it if he gets the chance. He tries to tell him that Ron and Hermione know, but he feels suffocated by thinking of what could happen to them. He finally says that in case they are busy, and Neville gets the chance, to kill the snake. Neville promises to do so. As they part, Neville tells Harry that they are all going to continue to fight, pats Harry on the shoulder and walks away. Harry moves on and sees Ginny kneeling by a girl, comforting her and trying to get her to go into the castle. Harry wants to speak, to tell Ginny he is there but he does nothing. The girl is saying that she does not want to fight anymore, that she wants to go home. Ginny says she knows, and her voice is breaking. Harry thinks how he wants to be stopped, to be dragged back home, and then he thinks that he is home, that Hogwarts has always been his first and best home. He, Voldemort and Snape, the abandoned boys, had all found their home at Hogwarts. With a huge effort, he forces himself to walk away from Ginny and the injured girl. He thinks he sees Ginny look around as he passes, but still, he does not say anything and continues on his way. Harry sees Hagrid's hut and remembers all the good times spent there, Fang's booming bark, Hagrid's rock cakes, Ron vomiting slugs, Hermione helping to save Norbert. But now all is silent, and no light shines from the windows. He stops after entering the edge of the Forest. He can sense Dementors in the trees, and he does not think he can produce a Patronus to drive them off. He cannot stop his trembling and realizes that it is not, after all, easy to die. Every breath, every smell of grass, the air on his face, are all precious. He is clinging to every second of life. Yet, as he thinks that he cannot go on, he knows that he must. The long game is over. The snitch has been caught, it is time to leave the air. And he remembers the Snitch, and the words, "I open at the close." Knowing the moment has come, he puts the snitch to his lips and says, "I am about to die." The Snitch opens, revealing the Resurrection stone. He thinks that it doesn't matter about bringing them back, because he is about to die. He is not fetching them; they are fetching him. He closes his eyes and turns the stone over three times. Harry knows it has worked. He can hear their footsteps on the ground. He opens his eyes and looks around. He sees that they are not flesh, but they are more than ghosts. He thinks that they most closely resemble the Riddle of the diary, which was memory that had almost become flesh. Lily, James, Sirius and Remus. James is in the clothes in which he died, hair messy, glasses askew. Sirius is younger than Harry has ever known him, handsome walking along with a grin on his face. Lupin is younger too, hair thicker, clothes not shabby. Lily is smiling, widest of all. She pushes her hair back, her green eyes looking at him as if she could never get enough. She tells Harry that he has been brave. Harry cannot speak, and he cannot stop looking at his mother. He would like to look at her forever, but even that would not be enough. James tells him that he is nearly there, and that they are so proud of him. Harry asks if dying will hurt, and Sirius assures him that it will not, that it will be easier and quicker than falling asleep. Lupin assures him that Voldemort will want it to be quick. Harry addresses Lupin, the words coming without volition. He tells Lupin that he didn't want any of them to die. To Lupin specifically, just after his son had been born. Lupin replies that he didn't want to die, but he hopes his son will understand that he died trying to give him a better, happier world. As they walk along, Harry knows they will not make his decision for him; they will not tell him to go. He asks if they will stay with him, and James answers that they will stay till the end. Harry asks if they can be seen by anyone else, and James tells him no, that they are a part of himself. He asks Lily to stay close to him and continues deeper into the forest. He is not sure where to find Voldemort, but he is sure he will find him. They go through the Dementors, his companions acting like Patronuses for him. His family walks beside him, and Harry thinks that they are his courage, the reason he can go on and continue to put one foot in front of the other. He feels his body and mind disconnected, thinking that the dead who walk with him are somehow more real than the living he left behind. Suddenly, there is a thud nearby and a voice calls out, asking who is there. Harry and his companions stop. Yaxley and Dolohov appear from around a tree. They talk about the sound they heard, wondering if it was an animal, and commenting that Hagrid kept "a whole bunch of stuff" in the forest. Eventually, they decide that the hour is up, and Harry is not coming. They say that Voldemort was sure Harry would come and he won't be happy. They'd better go back and see what the plan is now. They move off deeper into the Forest, and Harry and company follow. He looks sideways, and his mother smiles at him, while his dad smiles encouragement. In a few moments, they see light through the trees, and the two Death Eaters step out into a clearing. Harry recognizes Aragog's old lair. It is filled with a crowd of silent Death Eaters, as well as a couple giants and Greyback. He recognizes several Death Eaters, including Lucius, looking defeated, and Narcissa, eyes sunken and full of apprehension. Voldemort is there. Behind Voldemort's head is Nagini, still in her cage. Yaxley and Dolohov report that there is no sign of Harry. Bellatrix tries to speak, but Voldemort silences her by merely raising his wand. Her face is bloody, but she looks worshipfully at Voldemort. Voldemort says that he was sure Harry would come. Nobody says a word. Harry thinks that they must all be as scared as he is, his heart now throwing itself against his ribs, as if trying to escape from the body he is soon to cast aside. Harry pulls off the Invisibility cloak and stuffs it along with his wand under his robes. He does not want to be tempted to fight when the time comes. Voldemort goes on to say that he must have been mistaken that Harry would come. Harry replies as loudly and forcefully as he can, "You weren't." The Resurrection Stone slips from his fingers, and he sees his parents, Sirius and Lupin disappear. He steps forward into the clearing. The giants roar, and the Death Eaters rise to their feet, crying out and some laughing. Voldemort has frozen, but his eyes watch as Harry moves toward him. Then a voice cries out, "Harry, no!" Harry looks around and sees Hagrid, bound to a tree. Hagrid shakes the branches in his desperation to break free and asks Harry what he is doing. Rowle silences him with a spell. Now the only thing moving in the clearing is the snake in her cage. Harry can feel his wand against his chest but does not try to reach for it. He knows he cannot kill her, and that the Death Eters in the clearing would stop him if he even tried. Voldemort continues to stare at him, now a mirthless smile on his lips. Voldemort says softly, "Harry Potter, the Boy who Lived." Everything else is silent. None of the Death Eaters is moving. Hagrid is struggling still, Bellatrix panting. Harry thinks of Ginny, her blazing look, the feel of her lips. Voldemort raises his wand. Harry looks at him, wanting it to happen now, before he loses control and shows his fear. He sees Voldemort's mouth move, a flash of green light, and then, everything is gone. Discussion Questions 1. What did you think as you read Harry's immediate reaction to the knowledge that he must die? Did you find his reaction realistic? Did this scene change your opinion of Harry in any way? 2. How about Dumbledore? Did it make sense to you that Harry did not seem to blame Dumbledore? How did you feel about Dumbledore, as you read Harry's thoughts? 3. What did you think of the imagery as Harry walks through the deserted, empty halls and stairways of Hogwarts? 4. Neville has come up often in this book's chapter discussions. Thinking of the Neville in the early books, even up to the third, did you think anything about Neville being out recovering bodies? Could you have imagined this Neville from what we saw of him in previous books? 5. In his journey to meet Voldemort, Neville is the only living person to whom Harry speaks. Why Neville? Do you think Harry could have been thinking that Neville was the other "prophecy boy"? Do you think Neville knew Harry was going to sacrifice himself in spite of Harry's denials? 6. As Harry watches Ginny with the injured girl who wants to go home, he thinks of himself, Voldemort and Snape as the "abandoned boys" who all found their only home at Hogwarts. How did you react to this thought? Why did Harry think of those three and link them in such a way, a common bond between them all? 7. What did you feel as 17-year-old Harry put the snitch to his mouth and said the words, "I am about to die"? 8. Were you surprised at the identity of any of the people who came to Harry through the Resurrection Stone? 9. Did you find the interaction between Harry and his loved ones typical, particularly of interactions between himself and Sirius and Lupin? Did you feel Sirius and Lupin acted in character in this scene? What about James and Lily? Did they say or do anything that surprised you, given the little but important things we knew of them previously? 10. When Harry is saying that he didn't want them to die, why was he mostly addressing Lupin? 11. Harry's loved ones have promised to stay with him to the end. Why did he drop the Resurrection Stone before entering the clearing and meeting Voldemort? Was it accidental, just nerves, or was there another reason? Did he not want them there with him when he died? 12. Were the final moments of this chapter what you expected? Did you think there would be more, more action, more description, more dialogue between Harry and Voldemort? 13. What was your immediate reaction at the end of this chapter? Did you think, even for a moment, that Harry was really dead? 14. What was your overall reaction to this chapter and all its events? 15. Please share any other questions or thoughts that come to mind about this chapter. Sherry ________________________________________________________________ NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see "HPfGU DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database Next up will be Chapter 35 (King's Cross), from Alla, on or around December 8, 2008. From sweenlit at gmail.com Mon Nov 24 19:47:50 2008 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 11:47:50 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Dumbledore in GoF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43e41d1e0811241147r13a74a79uee71d1456ed3fe10@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184996 2 questions in GoF: 1. Doesn't it seem quite odd that Snape never discussed with DD the problem of Moody (fake one, of course) searching his office, especially when he was told that it was DD who gave the orders? 2. Moody has told DD that Snape was the one who told Moody about the Barty Crouch Sr issue i.e. the night when Harry and Krum find Barty Crouch Sr in a strange condition and when the fake Moody arrives there saying had Snape told him everything. Seems like Dumbledore has never discussed this point with Snape. Hmm. Simply because it is not discussed in the text of the books does not mean that we are to assume that they were never discussed. It seems to me that as a part of Snapes duties for Dumbledore and his unhappiness with Moody being at Hogwarts and being allowed to search offices they would have discussed it. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 24 23:14:31 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:14:31 -0000 Subject: Snape and Dumbledore in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184997 Joey wrote: > > 2. Moody has told DD that Snape was the one who told Moody about the Barty Crouch Sr issue i.e. the night when Harry and Krum find Barty Crouch Sr in a strange condition and when the fake Moody arrives there saying had Snape told him everything. Seems like Dumbledore has never discussed this point with Snape. > > Zara: > I am sorry, I do not understand what you think there was to discuss. The chronology - Harry sees Crouch Sr. He comes to the Headmaster's office. He is met outside it by Snape, and they argue until Albus shows up. Harry explains what he saw, and Albus leaves with Harry to investigate while Snape stays behind. > > Crouch appears in the Forest and states, "Damn leg," he said furiously. "Would've been here quicker . . . what's happened? Snape said something about Crouch -" > > Which is not exactly "Snape told me everything". This is important, because, as ALbus knows well, Snape does not know "everything", Harry explained more as they walked. But he does know enough to direct Moody to the Forest and mention Crouch. > > My take from these facts is that Moody did indeed meet Snape, and Snape did indeed communicate the information that something was wrong with Crouch in the Forest. Moody would not have risked mentioning a random faculty member who Albus himself would know had no way of knowing. And the only way I can see for him to know Snape was the safe person to mention, was if he indeed saw Snape. Carol responds: I think you're forgetting that "Moody" is in the forest the whole time. As soon as Harry leaves, he Stuns Krum and kills his father, hiding him under the Invisibility Cloak. He watches Harry on the Marauder's Map, sees him talking to Snape, and then sees Harry returning with Dumbledore. He hurries back to the scene of the crime to meet Dumbldore, telling him that his source of information is Snape. Since this lie is plausible (obviously, Harry would have told Snape that Mr. Crouch was in the forest acting like a madman) and DD doesn't yet suspect that "Moody" is an imposter and a murderer, he doesn't think to ask Snape whether "Moody" really talked to him, and, of course, Snape doesn't bring up the supposed conversation because he doesn't know anything abuut "Moody's" lie. Anyway, Crouch Jr. didn't meet Snape. He only saw him on the Marauder's Map, as we find out during the Veritaserum session. If I had been Dumbledore, I'd have suspected "Moody's" story because Snape would not have told another teacher about something Dumbledore could handle himself. He'd have gone along with DD himself if he felt that DD needed assistance. But DD still thinks that "Moody" is his old friend, an Auror and the DADA teacher, so it's his place to be there (whether Snape as Potions master likes it or not). He may not be fully aware of the antipathy between them, either. He probably expects them to trust each other because he trusts both of them (as he would have been right to do if "Moody" had been Moody). Carol, hoping that this post makes sense! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 25 02:05:07 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 02:05:07 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184998 > Discussion Questions > 1. What did you think as you read Harry's immediate reaction to the knowledge that he must die? Did you find his reaction realistic? Did this scene change your opinion of Harry in any way? Carol responds: It's impossible to recapture the feeling I had when I first read the chapter, fresh from "The Prince's Tale" and still grieving for Snape. Now all I see is the unreliable narrator: "Neither would live; neither could survive." (Wrong!) I remember, though, that I shared Harry's sense that Dumbledore had betrayed him. I understood both his terror and his determination to do what must be done. I respected both his courage and his understanding that he must sacrifice himself rather than raising a wand in his own defense. The moment when he opened the Snitch was, I think, the only time that I've ever cried for Harry in any of the books. And I was touched by his identification with Severus Snape and Tom Riddle, the "abandoned boys" whose only home was Hogwarts. I think that this chapter, especially the first part (up to the point when his loved ones appear) was the closest I've ever come to identifying and empathizing with Harry even though part of me knew (and had predicted in our pre-DH discussions) that Harry wasn't really going to die. (It didn't help that the American edition has a picture of Harry without glasses above the chapter title for "King's Cross"!). > > 2. How about Dumbledore? Did it make sense to you that Harry did not seem to blame Dumbledore? How did you feel about Dumbledore, as you read Harry's thoughts? Carol responds: "Dumbledore's betrayal"--counterbalanced by Snape's horror at the "pig to the slaughter" plan--had me in something like shock. I'm not sure how I reacted to Harry's reaction because I think, for once, it was the same as mine. I think I hated the cold, heartless, manipulative (supply expletive) and felt betrayed myself (not for the first time in these books). I don't know whether I recalled the gleam in DD's eye and suspected that he knew there was a way out for Harry. I only know that I very much needed "King's Cross" to get back the Dumbledore I had respected and liked despite his egotism and inadequate appreciation of Snape. But Harry's understanding that he must die (or give himself up to be killed without a fight) is remarkable and admirable. I think, BTW, that what goes through Harry's mind in the first half of this chapter is what DD had in mind when he told Snape that when the time came to face Voldemort, Harry will have done what's necessary to destroy Voldemort permanently. It's not just the Horcruxes; it's an understanding; a state of mind; a specific way of facing death without resistance. (I wonder if he also meant that Harry would have opened the Snitch to help himself face death, not without fear but without mindless terror and with an understanding that death is not the end.) > 3. What did you think of the imagery as Harry walks through the deserted, empty halls and stairways of Hogwarts? Carol: I think that the empty hallways and portraits simply emphasized his aloneness, if that's a word. No friends beside him, no mentor, nothing between him and death. And, of course, he's invisible, too, so no one is even aware of his plight. > 4. Neville has come up often in this book's chapter discussions. Thinking of the Neville in the early books, even up to the third, did you think anything about Neville being out recovering bodies? Could you have imagined this Neville from what we saw of him in previous books? > Carol responds: We saw Neville being brave, fighting or trying to fight Crabbe and Goyle and trying to stop HRH from getting Gryffindor into trouble again, way back in SS/PS. It was his ten points for bravery that broke the tie with Slytherin and gave Gryffindor the House cup. Setting aside how some posters feel about that bit of manipulation by Dumbledore and look only at Neville, I think we knew from the beginning that, like that fattest and most timid Hobbit, he had the seeds of courage in him. By the end of OoP, when, despite a broken wand, a broken nose, and Bellatrix's Cruciatus Curse, he's yelling at Harry not to give the Prophecy orb to Lucius Malfoy, he's more than proven his worth. I don't remember much about Neville in HBP--only that he has his own wand and Gran is proud of him--but I'm not surprised that he stepped into the vacuum created by Harry's absence and emerged as a leader. It was in him all along. (It probably helped that the other former DA members knew he'd been at the MoM with Harry. That probably made them more willing to follow him than they might otherwise have been.) > 5. In his journey to meet Voldemort, Neville is the only living person to whom Harry speaks. Why Neville? Do you think Harry could have been thinking that Neville was the other "prophecy boy"? Do you think Neville knew Harry was going to sacrifice himself in spite of Harry's denials? Carol responds: I think that implication (Neville as the other possible prophecy boy) is there whether Harry is consciously aware of it or not (Neville can't possibly know it). But Harry's respect for Neville had greatly increased. He knows that he's the leader of the resistance movement at Hogwarts, and, as I mentioned earlier, he was part of the MoM fiasco in OoP. Also, of course, Neville has lost his parents to Voldemort as much as Harry has even though they're not dead and even though Bellatrix and her cohorts, not Voldemort himself are directly responsible. he has the right to help to destroy Voldemort, to play an important role, even though he doesn't know that the snake is a Horcrux. And who but Neville would be so matter of fact about it? "Kill the snake?" Harry might have asked him to turn on a water faucet for all the resistance he makes. It's got to be done, so he does it. (well, takes on the burden of doing it without question or argument). > > 6. As Harry watches Ginny with the injured girl who wants to go home, he thinks of himself, Voldemort and Snape as the "abandoned boys" who all found their only home at Hogwarts. How did you react to this thought? Why did Harry think of those three and link them in such a way, a common bond between them all? Carol responds: I thought it was a rare moment of insight for Harry, who first wants to go home, like the girl, then realizes that he *is* home (the Dursleys and 4 Privet Drive don't even enter his mind), and then, with his new insights into Snape's mind, puts himself, his former enemy, and his true and permanent enemy together as a unit--"the abandoned boys." He had seen parallels with Tom Riddle as early as CoS. They would have been reinforced by the Pensieve excursions of HBP. And the glimpses of Snape's past in the Occlumency lessons and the HBP's notes , both of which stirred empathy in him (at least before he knew that the HBP was Snape) would have been reinforced by Snape's memories in the Pensieve moments before. I don't think that Harry is conscious of the way his mind has put all this together; he only sees the result, the epiphany of the common bond among them all. It's an epiphany that James, who had never known abandonment or rejection, could never have reached, and I think we see its consequences in Harry's vindication of Snape and in his offer to Voldemort of redemption through repentance. ("Offer" is the wrong word since redemption is not in Harry's power, but I can't think of a better word at the moment.) > > 7. What did you feel as 17-year-old Harry put the snitch to his mouth and said the words, "I am about to die"? Carol responds: I bawled like a baby, of course! > > 8. Were you surprised at the identity of any of the people who came to Harry through the Resurrection Stone? Carol responds: I think I was mildly surprised that Lupin was there, but given how recent his death was and Harry's sense of guilt over it, I think his presence made sense. And Fred's joking personality would have been out of place. And, given his sense that DD had betrayed him, of course he wasn't there, either. I think Lily and the Marauders minus Peter made perfect sense. (Harry didn't give it any conscious thought; it's as if the Stone simply knew who he most wanted and needed to see.) > > 9. Did you find the interaction between Harry and his loved ones typical, particularly of interactions between himself and Sirius and Lupin? Did you feel Sirius and Lupin acted in character in this scene? What about James and Lily? Did they say or do anything that surprised you, given the little but important things we knew of them previously? Carol: Everyone seemed in character to me except that James was the young adult of the "echo" in GoF rather than the toerag of SWM and the so-called Prank. The bit about Lily and Harry just staring at each other was a bit soppy. It was as if Harry had reverted to the eleven-year-old staring into the Mirror of Erised. I liked Harry's wanting to be forgiven by Lupin even though he did exactly the right thing (IMO) in sending him home to be with Tonks. And since Harry is little Teddy's godfather, it's fitting that he can some day tell the story to Teddy and pass on his father's words from beyond the grave. > > 10. When Harry is saying that he didn't want them to die, why was he mostly addressing Lupin? Carol responds: Because his sense of responsibility for Lupin's death is still fresh. His parents died before he really knew them, and, of course, they know he didn't want them to die. And he's probably come to terms with Sirius's death, placing the blame where it belongs (on Bellatrix and Voldemort). But he's just seen Lupin and Tonks and Fred lying dead on a table, all of them fighting the DEs rather than turn him, Harry, over to Voldemort. He probably feels that if he'd gone to meet Voldemort in the first place, they wouldn't be dead. (Of course, he wouldn't have known that he had to sacrifice himself, either, and would probably have tried to fight him, not knowing about the soul bit in his scar.) > > 11. Harry's loved ones have promised to stay with him to the end. Why did he drop the Resurrection Stone before entering the clearing and meeting Voldemort? Was it accidental, just nerves, or was there another reason? Did he not want them there with him when he died? Carol responds: Good question, and one I've also wondered about. I think they were there as long as he needed them, until he revealed himself to Voldemort and made his "death" inevitable. At that point, he doesn't want any props--no wand, no cloak, no Hallows. He's going to be joining them in a few seconds, so he thinks. there's no longer any need for their company, which was intended to give him courage (and protection from the Dementors) until the end. I don't think it was accidental or just nerves. Only the living want, or think they want, a Resurrection Stone. Harry is as good as dead himself at that moment. He no longer needs it. > > 12. Were the final moments of this chapter what you expected? Did you think there would be more, more action, more description, more dialogue between Harry and Voldemort? Carol: I'm not sure what I expected. I think I did expect more dialogue, but, then, if he's just going there to be killed and he's obviously wandless, there's not much to say except "Avada Kedavra!" You'd think, though, that Voldemort would suspect something seeing Harry wandless. I guess he just wanted to take advantage of the absence of the holly wand, not knowing that it was broken. > > 13. What was your immediate reaction at the end of this chapter? Did you think, even for a moment, that Harry was really dead? Carol: If I'd been reading the Bloomsbury edition, I mmight have thought so, but Harry's face above the words "King's Cross" made me expect that something was up. Besides, the whole set-up of the books leads us to expect that Harry will somehow kill or vanquish Voldemort, and he has to be alive to do that. (I certainly didn't anticipate "King's Cross," but that's a matter for the next chapter discussion.) > > 14. What was your overall reaction to this chapter and all its events? Carol: My initial reaction was stronger than my reaction now, which is mainly annoyance with the unreliable narrator presenting what Harry thinks is "the truth" when its still only partial truth. The most touching moment for me was when Harry understood the words "I open at the close" and spoke the words, "I am about to die." That was more climactic than the encounter with his loved ones or even the actual sacrifice, which was, I think, effective in its simplicity. I'm pretty sure that this is the chapter that JKR shed buckets of tears over, but I'm not JKR. I see quite a few parallels between Harry and Christ in this chapter, but I don't want to discuss them now. > > 15. Please share any other questions or thoughts that come to mind > about this chapter. Carol: None at the moment, but thanks very much, Sherry, for the accurate summary and thought-provoking questions. Carol, who probably would not have dropped the Resurrection Stone From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 25 03:16:31 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 03:16:31 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184999 Sherry: > Discussion Questions > 1. What did you think as you read Harry's immediate reaction to the > knowledge that he must die? Did you find his reaction realistic? > Did this scene change your opinion of Harry in any way? Alla: Hm, yes, sure I found it realistic, absolutely. I felt his pain, almost literally, it felt as if I was about to die myself. And mind you when I was reading it I already KNEW that Harry survives from spoilers and it still affected me that much. It is parts of the story like this is what make me think that JKR is an excellent writer. How she manages to pull one's heart strings (mine). So, yes, certainly I mean different people will of course react to the possibility of soon death differently, but what Harry felt and thought rings true to me as one of the possibilities. Scene did not really change my opinion of Harry a lot, just made me respect him more, but it is not like I thought that he will not sacrifice himself or anything. > 2. How about Dumbledore? Did it make sense to you that Harry did > not seem to blame Dumbledore? How did you feel about Dumbledore, as > you read Harry's thoughts? Alla: No, absolutely not. I mean, it made sense to me that Harry found his plan to be efficient **from Harry's POV**, of course, Harry with his saving people, of course IMO he will find it a great plan that he should die rather than anybody else will. However I disagree that Harry did not blame Dumbledore at that point in time. Oh yeah, he says that Dumbledore's betrayal was almost nothing, however he does not think of Dumbledore as his loved one, since he does not come with the stone and I was happy about that. How did I feel about Dumbledore? I felt very angry. > 3. What did you think of the imagery as Harry walks through the > deserted, empty halls and stairways of Hogwarts? Well, emptiness of the Castle reflects Harry's mood, right? he feels hostly as if he already died and actually come to think of it, I suppose it can also be argued as foreshadowing of Harry's fate in a way. We know that no matter what Castle is only temporarily empty, students will come back, ghosts, etc, I mean, no matter what, no matter who wins, Hogwarts is not dead, like Phoenix maybe? Oh never mind me, just rambling here. > > 4. Neville has come up often in this book's chapter discussions. > Thinking of the Neville in the early books, even up to the third, did > you think anything about Neville being out recovering bodies? Could > you have imagined this Neville from what we saw of him in previous > books? Alla: Oh Neville grew all right, but I think actually yes that him picking up bodies was not a surprise at all. I think his character development is one of the strongest in the books and I think his inner strength started to shine well, even earlier than him standing up to Trio. > 5. In his journey to meet Voldemort, Neville is the only living > person to whom Harry speaks. Why Neville? Do you think Harry could > have been thinking that Neville was the other "prophecy boy"? Do you > think Neville knew Harry was going to sacrifice himself in spite of > Harry's denials? Alla: I totally think he knew something was up with Harry, otherwise why would he say that we are going to keep fighting to Harry's empty reassurances that he is all right. IMO of course. > 7. What did you feel as 17-year-old Harry put the snitch to his > mouth and said the words, "I am about to die"? Alla: I think I cried. > > 8. Were you surprised at the identity of any of the people who came > to Harry through the Resurrection Stone? Alla: No of course not, who else could it be? I mean, one would expect Dumbledore under different circumstances, but that's about it. Well, I mean I guess I was **sort of** surprised that Tonks was not there, but since I always had warm fuzzy feelings about Sirius and Remus, I only giggled as much as it was possible under circumstances of Harry going to die and them being dead already. > > 9. Did you find the interaction between Harry and his loved ones > typical, particularly of interactions between himself and Sirius and > Lupin? Did you feel Sirius and Lupin acted in character in this > scene? What about James and Lily? Did they say or do anything that > surprised you, given the little but important things we knew of them > previously? Alla: Well, absolutely - between him and Sirius very typical and actually between everybody else too. I know people were surprised about Lily supporting him that much, me - I cannot really see it any other way. Because even if Lily is not in his head and will not say anything Harry would have wanted her too, I would think that soul of Lily will feel Harry's determination and will not decide to hurt him in his last minutes by quarreling with him. So, yes, I find it believable. However if Lily was alive Lily, I would have probably not found it believable. IMO of course. > 10. When Harry is saying that he didn't want them to die, why was he > mostly addressing Lupin? Alla: I think because pain of his loss is still the freshest for Harry and hurts the worst. > > 11. Harry's loved ones have promised to stay with him to the end. > Why did he drop the Resurrection Stone before entering the clearing > and meeting Voldemort? Was it accidental, just nerves, or was there > another reason? Did he not want them there with him when he died? Alla: You know, it is of course could be nerves, I would not have find it strange at all, however, wierdly I think it was not. I think Harry and him always wanting to protect everybody around him played here as well. Yes, they are already dead, however I think Harry did not want to risk the possibility that Voldemort may harm them all over again. Speculating, but that is how I feel. > > 12. Were the final moments of this chapter what you expected? Did > you think there would be more, more action, more description, more > dialogue between Harry and Voldemort? Alla: I did not expect anything, but I think it was done just right. > > 13. What was your immediate reaction at the end of this chapter? > Did you think, even for a moment, that Harry was really dead? Alla: As I said, I knew he lives, however I still had a tiny doubt for a second or two :) > 14. What was your overall reaction to this chapter and all its > events? Alla: Painful. > 15. Please share any other questions or thoughts that come to mind > about this chapter. Alla: Excellent questions Sherry :). Thank you so much. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Tue Nov 25 05:43:07 2008 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 05:43:07 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185000 "Sherry Gomes" > What was your overall reaction to > this chapter and all its events? I thought it was one of the most powerful chapters in the entire Harry Potter series, rivaled only by a few chapters in Goblet of Fire. However I did think "The Forest Again" was a crumby title, and I think instead of Voldemort saying "Harry Potter, The Boy Who Lived" he should have said "The Man Who Died". Come to think of it that would have made a much better title for the entire chapter. Imagine the heart palpitation of a first time reader who reads that chapter name in the table of contents. I also wonder if JRR was ever tempted to end things at that point, imagine if the entire saga had ended with the words "He saw the mouth move and a flash of green light, and everything was gone." THE END You've got to admit that would have been sort of cool. And the riots and blood in the streets that would produce would be most amusing. Eggplant From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Nov 25 08:00:31 2008 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:00:31 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185001 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > > "Sherry Gomes" > > > What was your overall reaction to > > this chapter and all its events? Eggplant: > I thought it was one of the most powerful chapters in the entire > Harry Potter series, rivaled only by a few chapters in Goblet of Fire. > However I did think "The Forest Again" was a crumby title, and I think > instead of Voldemort saying "Harry Potter, The Boy Who Lived" he > should have said "The Man Who Died". Come to think of it that would > have made a much better title for the entire chapter. Imagine the > heart palpitation of a first time reader who reads that chapter name > in the table of contents. Geoff: Except that, just in passing, there ain't no chapter of contents... :-| From lizzyben04 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 25 08:29:20 2008 From: lizzyben04 at yahoo.com (lizzyben04) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 08:29:20 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185002 Alla: > > Small disagreement, I do not think that he emerged from Azkaban well > at all, I think he seems to be recovered well enough in GoF, but to > me it shows that having people around whom heloves helped him that > much. However, sure I agree that he could not take GP at all. lizzyben: True that. He was in worse shape in POA, but finally being *free* did wonders for Sirius. Along with, as you say, having people he loves around. So yeah, after that taste of freedom & purpose, it probably was all the worse for Sirius to be imprisoned & isolated again. Until he ultimately found another escape in death. And that's really the end of the pattern, in all these cases. DD's imprisonment of a damaged person, followed by a violent death at the hands of a dark wizard. Ariana, James & Lily, Sirius, Snape, & Harry all end the same way in that sense. I did a quick check, & found that Ariana was actually first hidden away in Godric's Hollow, dying shortly thereafter at the hands of Grindewald. How odd, then, that DD chooses that same exact village to hide James & Lily, who also die shortly thereafter at the hands of Voldemort. Since Bathilda Bagshot was neighbor to both the DD & Potter family, I wonder if it might actually have been the same exact house. Wouldn't surprise me if it were. Freud would have a field day! And it helps explain one thing many people have wondered, which is why DD sets up this bizarre plan that requires Harry to grow up imprisoned w/the Dursleys before being killed by Voldemort. The answer may be that psychologically, that's the only kind of plan Dumbledore can foresee or create. It's kind of eerie how DD does this, but it seems to be almost completely unconscious. Consciously, DD no doubt believes he is doing these things for "the greater good" & the defeat of evil. > Alla: > > Eh, please do not be shocked, but I think it is a brilliant > observation. lizzyben: LOL, thanks. Alla: But then I am left with a thought - sure, I can pity > somebody like Dumbledore, but I cannot help but think that we are > supposed not just pity but admire him and well, I am not sure what is > to admire. lizzyben: I pity him as well. In his own way, DD is just as imprisoned & isolated in his ivory tower as Snape is in his dungeons, or Sirius in Grimmwald Place. He's haunted by past mistakes, yet keeps repeating them. He tries to do the right thing, but is ill-equipped to do so. He's dedicated to the good & driven to defeat evil, yet he doesn't seem to realize how he creates evil everywhere he goes. He's really quite a tragic figure. As for what we're supposed to think, I've given up understanding Rowling's intentions here. I think to a certain degree, she doesn't know what she's written, which is pretty typical for authors. Novels will contain symbolism & parallels that the author did not intend, yet they still show up. That's what makes literary criticism so interesting. It doesn't matter so much if we're supposed to admire a character, if the author has included enough info that we as readers can make our own determination. I actually admire many of DD's ideals, however imperfect he may have been in realizing them. Alla: Especially since I do not think that we even hear the > apology for that thing he was doing to people around him. In fact I > am pretty sure we are not. > > Alla lizzyben: I never heard an apology either, because DD just does not seem to *get it*, even at the very end. Even in King's Cross, w/a year to ponder such things, DD still doesn't seem to realize the effects of his own actions, but is full of narcissism, self-justifications & rationalizations, even while confessing his sins. Rather than apologize, he wants *Harry* to reassure him that he was really a good guy. He's trying hard to confess his mistakes, and learn a lesson from them, but it's totally not happening. Meanwhile, a damaged child lies hidden under the seat, and DD studiously ignores it & tells Harry not to help it. And so DD repeats the pattern even after his death. I read a fan-fiction once that said that DD can only escape limbo by actually picking up the damaged child & caring for it. And that seems right, to me. He's got to learn that lesson, that he must care & protect, instead of hiding & imprisoning, to actually heal or prevent further pain to himself or others. But in canon, he never does. James, Lily & Sirius are in heaven, (Snape is maybe in a Slytherin heaven?) But Dumbledore ends the novel stuck in limbo, imprisoned with a damaged child. For a series w/such a bent for karmic justice, that seems appropriate somehow. lizzyben From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Nov 25 10:34:53 2008 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:34:53 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185003 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Eggplant: > > I thought it was one of the most powerful chapters in the entire > > Harry Potter series, rivaled only by a few chapters in Goblet of Fire. > > However I did think "The Forest Again" was a crumby title, and I think > > instead of Voldemort saying "Harry Potter, The Boy Who Lived" he > > should have said "The Man Who Died". Come to think of it that would > > have made a much better title for the entire chapter. Imagine the > > heart palpitation of a first time reader who reads that chapter name > > in the table of contents. > > Geoff: > Except that, just in passing, there ain't no chapter of contents... > :-| Geoff (later): Didn't make myself very clear - I meant there is no list of chapter names; you might only get a palpitation in that situation if you leafed through the book. Mark you, I must confess that to avoid potential cardiac arrest, I turned to the last page when I first got the book. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Nov 25 11:20:37 2008 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:20:37 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > Geoff (later): > Didn't make myself very clear - I meant there is no list of chapter > names; you might only get a palpitation in that situation if you > leafed through the book. > > Mark you, I must confess that to avoid potential cardiac arrest, I > turned to the last page when I first got the book. > > > Hickengruendler: I think that depends on the edition. As far as I know, the American editions do have a table of contest. And I read the epilogue first as well, so you are nor the only coward and cheat here on this list. Nonetheless, I did have very strong emotions during this chapter. Even if I hadn't spoiled myself, I would have guessed, that Harry survived, simply because it still seemed pretty early in the book for the protagonist to die, at least for me. But I completely feel for Harry and realy enjoyed everything in this chapter. And with the possible exception of Lupin, whom I think JKR included, to give him a farewell scene, since he didn't have a death scene, I think the shadows/ghosts accompanying Harry were absolutely fitting. From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Tue Nov 25 12:07:01 2008 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 04:07:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Snape and Dumbledore in GoF References: Message-ID: <100084.91211.qm@web46206.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 185005 > Zanooda: > It was a little risky to mention Snape, but not much riskier than other things he did :-). . Ah, but I think the risk here was Snape and DD discussing the event and spotting the gap in the explanation "Moody" had given to DD (as to how he got there in the first place). > Zara: > I agree that "The Prince's Tale" suggests Albus and Snape discussed > all significant things together. I don't agree that this means we > have been shown all such discussions of significant things. In fact, > I can describe discussions they had, that we were not shown. > Lynda: > Hmm. Simply because it is not discussed in the text of the books does not > mean that we are to assume that they were never discussed. It seems to me > that as a part of Snapes duties for Dumbledore and his unhappiness with > Moody being at Hogwarts and being allowed to search offices they would have > discussed it. Yes, we have not been *shown* everything - we have to deduce a few things using what has been shown, I agree. Assuming they had discussed it, given the seriousness of the Crouch Sr. event and given the nature of discussions they had as per The Prince's Tale chapter, I was just wondering why the discussion did not pave way to any caution from DD's end. At least, he could have made out that "Moody" had lied to DD about Snape telling him something regarding Crouch Sr. Wouldn't that discovery trigger *something* like say DD going for Legilimens when he meets "Moody" next? Sounds strange to me that something like this didn't happen. > Carol: > Since this lie is plausible (obviously, Harry would have told > Snape that Mr. Crouch was in the forest acting like a madman) and DD > doesn't yet suspect that "Moody" is an imposter and a murderer, he > doesn't think to ask Snape whether "Moody" really talked to him, and, > of course, Snape doesn't bring up the supposed conversation because he > doesn't know anything abuut "Moody's" lie. They may not have discussed with the *intent* of discussing their suspicions about "Moody" - the reasons you have pointed out make sense as to why their suspicions wouldn't have been aroused at all. Yet they would have discussed it with the intent of discussing the meaning and impact of the event on their "secret projects" of safeguarding Harry, preventing the revival of LV, etc.. As such, they are yet to discover who put in Harry's name in the GoF. So, they should (would?) have been doubly alert and discussed it, right? And, during the discussion, they would (should?) have discovered the "fishy" aspect of the fake Moody. Even if not during the discussion, DD could have still made out later by reviewing his thoughts via the pensieve. Thanks for making this discussion fun and do let me know what you all think! :-) Cheers, ~Joey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Tue Nov 25 12:52:20 2008 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 04:52:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again References: Message-ID: <150419.87521.qm@web46206.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 185006 >1. What did you think as you read Harry's immediate reaction to the knowledge that he must die? Did you find his reaction realistic? Did this scene change your opinion of Harry in any way? Yes, I found his reactions realisitc (and sweet) throughout the chapter. My opinion of Harry improved in a *major* way. Second time, though. GoF second task was the first time I formed a significant (positive) impression about him. >2. How about Dumbledore? Did it make sense to you that Harry did not seem to blame Dumbledore? How did you feel about Dumbledore, as you read Harry's thoughts? I could understand both their positions. DD wanted Harry to spend his life (however long it was) happy and peaceful. I think Harry understood that and didn't blame him. >4. Neville has come up often in this book's chapter discussions. Thinking of the Neville in the early books, even up to the third, did you think anything about Neville being out recovering bodies? Could you have imagined this Neville from what we saw of him in previous books? Neville's courage levels showed gradual and steady improvement right from PS/SS. OoTP climax is definitely a fitting prelude to his character maturity levels?in DH, I think. >5. In his journey to meet Voldemort, Neville is the only living person to whom Harry speaks. Why Neville? Do you think Harry could have been thinking that Neville was the other "prophecy boy"? Do you think Neville knew Harry was going to sacrifice himself in spite of Harry's denials? I think Harry was always subconsciously thinking that Neville was the other "prophecy boy" (it was a startling discovery for him, right?). I think Neville trusted Harry's denials because if he hadn't I think he wouldn't have allowed Harry to move on without further argument. >6. As Harry watches Ginny with the injured girl who wants to go home, he thinks of himself, Voldemort and Snape as the "abandoned boys" who all found their only home at Hogwarts. How did you react to this thought? Why did Harry think of those three and link them in such a way, a common bond between them all? Very good question - something that struck me too. I think this thought / discovery was there somewhere at the back of his mind right from OoTP-Occlumency-lessons days (only reinforced by Snape's memories he had just visited in the Prince's Tale) and?HBP-visit-memories-about-Voldemort-with-DD days. Also, TMR had told him in CoS about things they had in common and Harry had discussed that aspect with DD. So, it was a lingering, subconscious thought for him, I guess. >7. What did you feel as 17-year-old Harry put the snitch to his mouth and said the words, "I am about to die"? My heart felt *extremely* heavy. :-( >8. Were you surprised at the identity of any of the people who came to Harry through the Resurrection Stone? >From the intensity of love point of view, only Lupin but not Fred was a bit of a surprise, yes. As such, I thought a person like Harry would want all of them back - Lupin, Tonks and Fred - whether he loves them *dearly* or not. So, I was surprised, yes. >10. When Harry is saying that he didn't want them to die, why was he mostly addressing Lupin? Harry has this tendency to easily think "If s/he dies, it's my fault" - so, his feeling of guilt in Lupin's case is higher as he thought he had not surrendered to LV when he was given the option which is why Lupin, et al had to die fighting. >11. Harry's loved ones have promised to stay with him to the end. Why did he drop the Resurrection Stone before entering the clearing and meeting Voldemort? Was it accidental, just nerves, or was there another reason? Did he not want them there with him when he died? I think he did not want them there with him when he died. It would have made dying tough for him and I feel he couldn't?bear to see their reactions while dying. >12. Were the final moments of this chapter what you expected? Did you think there would be more, more action, more description, more dialogue between Harry and Voldemort? I think I was way too absorbed while reading this chapter to have expected anything in the first place. I just jogged along with the flow. > 13. What was your immediate reaction at the end of this chapter? Did you think, even for a moment, that Harry was really dead? For a few moments, I was blank. And then, I told myself "Nah. Let me move on and then see." Of course, my friend had sort of hinted earlier that all would be well in the end which is why I bothered to read the series.. :-) >14. What was your overall reaction to this chapter and all its events? Great! I felt JKR has imagined and written Harry's situation / feelings *very* well. >15. Please share any other questions or thoughts that come to mind about this chapter. I really wonder if I can add anything at all to this wonderful list! :-) Cheers, ~Joey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 25 18:57:30 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:57:30 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185007 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > I think that depends on the edition. As far as I know, the American > editions do have a table of contest. zanooda: Yeah, the American edition does have a table of contents, and it's right in the beginning of the book, so everyone is welcome to look for possible spoilers there :-). > hickengruendler wrote: > And I read the epilogue first as well, so you are nor the only > coward and cheat here on this list. zanooda: I did the same thing, and I'm not even ashamed :-). Although I didn't read the entire epilogue, I just checked if Harry was alive. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Tue Nov 25 20:23:34 2008 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:23:34 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185008 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" > wrote: > > > I think that depends on the edition. As far as I know, the American > > editions do have a table of contest. Geoff: You mean people fight over who gets the list of contents? :-))) zanooda: > Yeah, the American edition does have a table of contents, and it's > right in the beginning of the book, so everyone is welcome to look > for possible spoilers there :-). Geoff: The Bloomsbury editions in the UK do not have a list. This can be a thundering nuisance if you are trying to find a particular chapter and have forgotten the number and therefore have to go through the book to find the section you want by trial and error. Eggplant, like myself, has only been posting occasionally of late, but I find myself again in the uncommon situation of agreeing with what she wrote in message 185000: "I thought it was one of the most powerful chapters in the entire Harry Potter series, rivaled only by a few chapters in Goblet of Fire." [US spelling is the original, not mine :-)]. I have on more than one occasion said that chapters 34-36 are for me the finest chapters that JKR wrote in the whole series. There are indeed other chapters which are good - the revelation of Sirius as being a "goodie" in POA and the equally astounding unmasking of Barty Crouch Junior in GOF come to mind - but for me, there is just something extra in her writing at the end. There is a flow and an intensity which hasn't always been seen earlier. I know we haven't reached chapter 36 yet but I still treasure the moment in this chapter when the sun comes over the window sill as Voldemort and Harry come to the OK corral for the final shoot out: "A red-gold glow burst suddenly across the enchanted sky above them, as an edge of dazzling sun appeared over the sill of the nearest window. The light hit both of their faces at the same time, so that Voldemort's was suddenly a flaming blur. Harry heard the high voice shriek as he, too, yelled his best hope to the heavens, pointing Draco's wand: 'Avada Kedavra!' 'Expelliarmus!'. Magic - in every sense. From jkoney65 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 25 23:14:22 2008 From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:14:22 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185009 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizzyben04" wrote: > lizzyben: > > I have a somewhat-predictable take on the matter: Blame Dumbledore. > Both Sirius & Snape are put into a kind of prison by Dumbledore, > physical and mental, which they cannot leave. Sirius is forced to stay > by his loyalty to the Order & James, & Snape by his guilt & love for > Lily. DD uses these emotions to manipulate both to accomplish his > purposes. > > And there's no question that Azkaban is worse than Hogwarts. But I > think it's interesting that Sirius actually came out of Azkaban pretty > well, all things considered. He was sharp, funny, goal-oriented & > energetic, even when eating rats in a cave. It was only after being > imprisioned by DD in GP that Sirius begins to deteriorate rapidly > mentally. > > Because Azkaban is a physical prison, but DD puts Sirius into a mental > prison & that's what he could not take. Sirius functions well w/an > enemy to fight (and hate), which kept him going in Azkaban. But once > imprisoned in GH, Sirius was left w/o an enemy to fight, or a purpose > in life, surrounded by all the psychic trauma of his youth. DD placed > him in a position where goal-oriented, energetic Sirius had no goals, > no job & no activity. So Sirius is imprisoned mentally w/only his own > memories, griefs, hatreds & regrets. There's a number of parallels > between Snape & Sirius's prisons - both were emotionally damaged > people, who depended upon DD & were imprisoned by DD in the home of > their youth. And there's an uncanny ability of DD's to imprison them > in the very memories of the past that will destroy their ability to > escape or find an independent future. jkoney While I agree with the first part I don't believe that DD imprisoned them in the home of their youth. Physically Snape stays at Spinners End, but he seems to have adjusted to the place quite well. As for being locked in the memory of Lilly that was his own free will. He decided to do it after some coaxing from DD. What it also did was give him a reason to live. Unfortunately for Snape he didn't really grow from that point until the very end. For Sirius the house was also a place where he was free from being chased or killed. He might not be able to leave, but he was able to work on the plans for the Order. He was able to receive messages, etc. from members and contribute in some way. Unfortunately for Sirius he was an active person and staying in the same place wasn't the best use of his abilities. But it did keep him safe. lizzyben > And what was DD's first reaction when asked to protect James & Lily? > "Hmmm... Well, why don't we put them into a prison?" There's an orphan > child that needs DD's care... why don't we put him in a home where > he'll be imprisoned under the stairs? There's a emotionally disturbed > boy attending Hogwarts... why don't we let him return to imprisonment > in the orphanage? This can only end well. > jkoney That's an awful lot to lay on DD. He figured out a way to keep the Potter's safe from Voldemort and even offered to be the secret keeper. If he had been, then they would have been safe as long as they stayed hidden. He knew that Harry might not be loved as much, but it's a large step to believe that he would be mistreated at the hands of his relatives. And Harry was safe from harm. DD had no control over Tom. Dippet was the one who sent him back not DD. From leahstill at hotmail.com Tue Nov 25 23:27:53 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:27:53 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185010 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizzyben04" wrote: >> And that's really the end of the pattern, in all these cases. > DD's imprisonment of a damaged person, followed by a violent death at > the hands of a dark wizard. Ariana, James & Lily, Sirius, Snape, & > Harry all end the same way in that sense. I did a quick check, & found > that Ariana was actually first hidden away in Godric's Hollow, dying > shortly thereafter at the hands of Grindewald. How odd, then, that DD > chooses that same exact village to hide James & Lily, who also die > shortly thereafter at the hands of Voldemort. Since Bathilda Bagshot > was neighbor to both the DD & Potter family, I wonder if it might > actually have been the same exact house. Wouldn't surprise me if it > were. Freud would have a field day! Leah: Yes, when you put in like that...And don't forget Lupin. There was a boy, damaged by an attack when young, whom Dumbledore thought he could keep safe in a 'haunted' house. No wonder Dumbledore is so fond of (knitting) patterns. Leah From lizzyben04 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 26 01:59:19 2008 From: lizzyben04 at yahoo.com (lizzyben04) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 01:59:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185011 > jkoney > While I agree with the first part I don't believe that DD imprisoned > them in the home of their youth. > > Physically Snape stays at Spinners End, but he seems to have adjusted > to the place quite well. As for being locked in the memory of Lilly > that was his own free will. ... For Sirius the house was also a place where he was free from being > chased or killed. He might not be able to leave, but he was able to > work on the plans for the Order. He was able to receive messages, > etc. from members and contribute in some way. Unfortunately for > Sirius he was an active person and staying in the same place wasn't > the best use of his abilities. But it did keep him safe. lizzyben: It did keep him safe, until he died quickly thereafter. I was mostly referring to Snape being imprisoned at Hogwarts, which as Harry says, was his real childhood home. And yes, technically Snape could've left at any time & gone to teach at Durmstrang, or Sirius could've left GP & lived on the run again. But, based on their temperaments & past, they could not escape & were locked in place just as surely as if DD held the key. He did hold the key, in that DD knew the emotional "hook" that he could use to transform people into pawns. For both Snape & Sirius, that "hook" was Harry. As you say, DD "prodded" Snape into staying to protect Harry based on his guilt over Lily's death. He also made Sirius stay at GP because of Sirius' guilt over James & loyalty to Harry. Neither one could leave, because both were emotionally "hooked" into becoming prisoners & pawns in DD's game. Leah: Yes, when you put in like that...And don't forget Lupin. There was a boy, damaged by an attack when young, whom Dumbledore thought he could keep safe in a 'haunted' house. No wonder Dumbledore is so fond of (knitting) patterns. lizzyben: The more I think of it, the more certain I am that it was the same exact house. There's no mention of the DD's selling it after Ariana's death & DD still probably had ownership of the family home. So of course that's the first place he would think of to hide James & Lily. Lupin is another clear example. I think DD's plan went a little awry there, though, because Lupin had another support system outside of DD in the Marauders. So DD imprisoned & hid Lupin away in a "haunted" house, but Lupin was able to escape imprisonment w/the help of his friends. Just as, later on, he escaped teaching at Hogwarts. But he never really escaped the Order, bound by DD's past favors to him. That was the emotional "hook" that snagged Lupin. And in the end the pattern played out the same: the child was imprisoned by DD & later killed by a dark wizard. Albus Dumbledore: "I do enjoy knitting patterns." Eek! Creepy, creepy! I didn't remember that quote about patterns, but it's from HBP. DD visits Slughorn (w/Harry) to "prod" him into returning to Hogwarts. At first Slughorn is resistant, but then DD goes to the bathroom, leaving time for Slughorn & Harry to talk. And Slughorn reminisces about Lily, & how Harry would make a fine member of the "Slug Club." When DD returns, Slughorn asks him what took so long. DD responds "I was just looking at Muggle magazines. I do enjoy knitting patterns." Slughorn then tells DD he's decided to return to teach at Hogwarts. On re-read, there's a clear double meaning there, a little joke that DD intended for himself alone. DD has just manipulated & emotionally "hooked" Slughorn into returning to Hogwarts by dangling Harry as bait, and he is triumphing at his success. Why shouldn't he? He'd spun the same strategy at least twice before. In that same chapter, there's an unintentional similarity between DD & Slughorn. After Harry meets Slughorn, the text says that Harry had "a sudden vivid mental image of a great swollen spider, spinning a web around it, twitching a thread here and there to bring its large and juicy flies a little closer." Spiders also knit patterns that extend far around them, catching all passersby in their wake. At the end of the chapter, they leave Slughorn & apparate to the Weasleys - where DD now appears to be covered in spiders. DD cries crocodile tears about Sirius' cruel, sudden death, and Harry resolutely watches a spider climbing DD's hat. Harry pledges that if he ever dies too, he'll try to take Voldemort with him. DD praises this thought, patting his back & saying that Sirius, James & Lily would approve. Of course, DD is hiding from Harry that it's been his plan for Voldemort and Harry to kill each other all along. DD finishes with: "I take my hat off to you - or I would, if I were not afraid of showering you in spiders." It's all going according to plan, the pattern has been spun, and the threads of the spider's web have been twitched to bring all the juicy flies a little closer for the main event. *shivers* OK, DD is officially my most favorite character. lizzyben From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Nov 26 02:01:53 2008 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 02:01:53 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185012 > Sherry Discussion Questions > 1. What did you think as you read Harry's immediate reaction to > the knowledge that he must die? Did you find his reaction > realistic? Did this scene change your opinion of Harry in any way? Jen: I thought it was completely realistic, very Harry that he didn't bargain or try to think of an alternative or spend time blaming. Harry can be angry & blame others - lash out - but when facing life and death moments, especially involving other people, he does what must be done quickly. Also, Harry seemed more like his younger self in those last moments before he descended to the forest: more vulnerable, more alone and less angry. I liked the poetic touch of Harry counting his heartbeats, too. > 2. How about Dumbledore? Did it make sense to you that Harry did > not seem to blame Dumbledore? How did you feel about Dumbledore, > as you read Harry's thoughts? Jen: The moment was too big for more than passing thoughts about DD imo. Dumbledore was tied to Harry's destiny so his Plan was sure to pass through Harry's mind, but I wasn't surprised Harry didn't linger on him. Plus, I was certain there would be more about DD because there were loose ends to his story. > 5. In his journey to meet Voldemort, Neville is the only living > person to whom Harry speaks. Why Neville? Do you think Harry > could have been thinking that Neville was the other "prophecy > boy"? Do you think Neville knew Harry was going to sacrifice > himself in spite of Harry's denials? Jen: As others said, it was an acknowledgement of Neville and his growing importance in the defeat of LV. It was also foreshadowing for Neville's big moment. I don't think Neville knew Harry's real plan for the same reason Joey wrote - Neville would've attempted to stop Harry. > 6. As Harry watches Ginny with the injured girl who wants to go > home, he thinks of himself, Voldemort and Snape as the "abandoned > boys" who all found their only home at Hogwarts. How did you react > to this thought? Why did Harry think of those three and link them > in such a way, a common bond between them all? Jen: This was an extraordinary moment for Harry. Forgiving Snape enough to identify with him so completely? Understanding the murderer of his parents was once the more vulnerable Tom Riddle? It proved to me Harry had grown capable of being 'the better man' once he knew the truth. It follows that he would forgive Dumbledore, too. > 7. What did you feel as 17-year-old Harry put the snitch to his > mouth and said the words, "I am about to die"? Jen: I cried, just like Alla and Carol.:) JKR wrote a beautiful scene here, an ending to the puzzle Harry faced at the beginning of the story when he had no clue how to open the Snitch. The truth truly did set him free once he knew Dumbledore's story, Snape's story and the soul piece connecting him to Voldemort. > 8. Were you surprised at the identity of any of the people who > came to Harry through the Resurrection Stone? Jen: Lupin a little bit. It made logical sense Lupin would be with the others, but I still felt surprised because Harry didn't express longing for Lupin the way he felt for the others. > 9. Did you find the interaction between Harry and his loved ones > typical, particularly of interactions between himself and Sirius > and Lupin? Did you feel Sirius and Lupin acted in character in > this scene? What about James and Lily? Did they say or do > anything that surprised you, given the little but important things > we knew of them previously? Jen: I don't remember initial impressions. Reading the passage now it's a sweet moment and nothing in particular surprises me. The shadow figures seem only to know what Harry has to do rather than having the ability to stop him or strategize another option imo. They are there for support only, not to analyze the situation. So Harry has what he needs most in the moment with his decision already made. > 10. When Harry is saying that he didn't want them to die, why was > he mostly addressing Lupin? Jen: I guess because of Teddy and feeling guilty. > 11. Harry's loved ones have promised to stay with him to the end. > Why did he drop the Resurrection Stone before entering the clearing > and meeting Voldemort? Was it accidental, just nerves, or was > there another reason? Did he not want them there with him when he > died? Jen: Initially I thought Harry didn't want LV to find the Invisibility Cloak or Stone, thus joining the Hallows. Now I'm not sure. I like Alla's answer about Harry trying to protect those he loves even when dead. That fits him. > 12. Were the final moments of this chapter what you expected? Did > you think there would be more, more action, more description, more > dialogue between Harry and Voldemort? Jen: I was glad LV finally cast the AK instead of talking like he usually does & dragging it out! I was pretty certain Harry wasn't going to die. Chosen One and all that. ;) > 14. What was your overall reaction to this chapter and all its > events? Jen: Well-written & poignant. A perfect ending to the connection between Harry and Voldemort. Thanks Sherry, your summary and questions were great. :) It's nice to revisit this chapter months later. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 26 03:35:25 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 03:35:25 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185013 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > The Bloomsbury editions in the UK do not have a list. This can be a > thundering nuisance if you are trying to find a particular chapter > and have forgotten the number and therefore have to go through the > book to find the section you want by trial and error. zanooda: Oh, I know, but it would be better, IMO, to have the table of contents at the end of the book, otherwise I'm very tempted to read chapter titles before starting the book itself :-). > Geoff wrote: > Eggplant, like myself, has only been posting occasionally of late, > but I find myself again in the uncommon situation of agreeing with > what she wrote in message 185000: "I thought it was one of the most > powerful chapters in the entire Harry Potter series...." This is a beautiful chapter, and I like it more than chapter 36 that you love so much :-). I don't know how I could have gotten through it, if I didn't find out already that Harry survived. zanooda, who always thought that Eggplant was a "he" ... From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Nov 26 04:01:08 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 04:01:08 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185014 > zanooda: > > Oh, I know, but it would be better, IMO, to have the table of > contents at the end of the book, otherwise I'm very tempted to read > chapter titles before starting the book itself :-). Potioncat: I've read the chapter titles first for the last 2 books. It didn't spoil anything for me, because you never really know what JKR is up to. It did let me know that Snape was still alive well into DH....I didn't foresee how quick that would end! From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 26 05:25:02 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 05:25:02 -0000 Subject: Snape and Dumbledore in GoF In-Reply-To: <100084.91211.qm@web46206.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185015 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Happy Smiley wrote: > Ah, but I think the risk here was Snape and DD discussing the > event and spotting the gap in the explanation "Moody" had given > to DD (as to how he got there in the first place). zanooda: I understand what you mean, but it seems to me that in this particular case there was no reason for "the gap" to come up in DD/Snape discussion at all. Let's try and imagine this hypothetical conversation :-). Snape wasn't present in the Forest, so it would be him asking questions, not the other way around. If DD mentioned that he asked Moody to search the Forest, Snape would just assume that DD summoned him (Moody), like he summoned Hagrid, so he wouldn't think about asking *how* exactly Moody knew where to find DD. The only question DD could ask Snape was: "Anything suspicious here in the castle?" and the answer would probably be "no". If he answered "I didn't see anyone at all after you left for the Forest with Potter", then yes, it could make DD suspicious, but obviously Snape didn't say that :-). This is the case where the wording is important - one word, and DD's suspicions would be aroused, that's why I believe that mentioning Snape was a risk for Fake!Moody. However, he took this risk and it paid off. "The gap" *could* come up in the conversation, but it didn't necessarily *have to*, and it didn't :-). From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 26 05:38:02 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 05:38:02 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185016 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > I've read the chapter titles first for the last 2 books. It didn't > spoil anything for me, because you never really know what JKR is > up to. zanooda: You are right, but for me it was a little different in the case of DH. I accidentally saw some spoilers online, the scan of the table of contents among them. However, there was still hope that they were fake. So when I looked at the table of contents in the book and realized that it was the same one that I saw online, I knew that the rest of the spoilers were also true, and they were some serious spoilers :-)! From mros at xs4all.nl Wed Nov 26 08:13:27 2008 From: mros at xs4all.nl (Marion Ros) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:13:27 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius and Snape parallels again References: Message-ID: <780817ADD46B42A4935021E8B2B59B83@Marion> No: HPFGUIDX 185017 lizzyben: >>>>True that. He was in worse shape in POA, but finally being *free* did wonders for Sirius. Along with, as you say, having people he loves around. So yeah, after that taste of freedom & purpose, it probably was all the worse for Sirius to be imprisoned & isolated again. Until he ultimately found another escape in death.<<<< >>>>And that's really the end of the pattern, in all these cases. DD's imprisonment of a damaged person, followed by a violent death at the hands of a dark wizard. Ariana, James & Lily, Sirius, Snape, & Harry all end the same way in that sense. I did a quick check, & found that Ariana was actually first hidden away in Godric's Hollow, dying shortly thereafter at the hands of Grindewald. How odd, then, that DD chooses that same exact village to hide James & Lily, who also die shortly thereafter at the hands of Voldemort. Since Bathilda Bagshot was neighbor to both the DD & Potter family, I wonder if it might actually have been the same exact house. Wouldn't surprise me if it were. Freud would have a field day!<<<< Marion: I can't resist; I'll be Freud for a day :-) Can't remember where I've read it, but somebody (Red Hen?) wrote an analyses of the fight in which Ariana had been killed. Turns out that Abe and Grindlewald were fighting eachother and suddenly Ariana turns up dead. Of course, this could mean that Grindles was hauling off deadly curses to his best friend's kid brother and one of them missed and hid the kid sister instead, but I've been thinking... 1) Abe loathes his brother and blames Albus for Ariana's death 2) There's not a lot Abe could do or say against his brother, since he was a kid back then as well. 3) Abe was underage, not going to Hogwarts... and still he was duelling Grindlewald at the tender age of, what, 15? Were they *duelling* or were they scuffling, bigger and older Gellert disadvantaged because he could hold his own against a fifteen-year-old with a wand, but not with fisticuffs? 4) We are told by Abe that Albus loathed being 'hold back' by his retarded sister, the 'freak', the 'family secret', the child hidden beneath the stairs. I've seen too many episodes of Columbo and read too many Agatha Christie novels to believe in this kind of 'coincidence'. It looks like all the world as if Albus, seeing his precious goldenhaired, perfect, delicious boyfriend being accosted by his little brother and that freakish kid, his sister, the family shame, is screaming and waffling and waving her arms and throwing a wobbler, and it's all *her* fault that he can't follow up on his plans, *her* fault that he is tight to this *dump* instead of being with Gellert, beautiful Gellert, and ruling the world, and then, quite accidently-on-purpose, a curse is loosened, and she is dead.. The freak is no more.. Albus is free... Except Gellert flees. No small wonder. A girl had been killed whilst he was fighting her brother. He was a foreign boy and the Ministry has a record of 'throw the suspect in Azkaban, ask questions later'. Was it Albus who decided that Gellert was not good for him, or was it the other way around. One of them killed Ariana, and based on Albus' tendency to recreate the trauma of his youth over and over again, I suspect that it was Albus. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 26 10:34:05 2008 From: shagufta_naazpk2000 at yahoo.com (shagufta_naazpk2000) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:34:05 -0000 Subject: Winks and nods from JKR in DH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Alan Wilson" wrote: On my umpteeth read of DH I noticed how Aunt Muriel refers to disguised Harry as Barry - a nod to the Barry Trotter parody methinks... Shagufta From leahstill at hotmail.com Wed Nov 26 11:50:11 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:50:11 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185019 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizzyben04" wrote: >> > lizzyben: > > Lupin is another clear example. I think DD's plan went a little > awry there, though, because Lupin had another support system outside > of DD in the Marauders. So DD imprisoned & hid Lupin away in a > "haunted" house, but Lupin was able to escape imprisonment w/the help > of his friends. Just as, later on, he escaped teaching at Hogwarts. > But he never really escaped the Order, bound by DD's past favors to > him. That was the emotional "hook" that snagged Lupin. And in the end > the pattern played out the same: the child was imprisoned by DD & > later killed by a dark wizard. Leah: Whatever Dumbledore's conscious reasons, it does make you wonder about Dumbledore's subconcious reaction to the Prank, both at the time it occurs, when he apparently fails to punish Sirius, and fails to give Severus any closure, and much later when he learns the truth about the animagi and their escapades from Sirius at the end of POA. How dare Severus and Sirius, either intentionally or out of recklessness, risk exposing this hidden shame to the world? I've always thought that 'My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus', sounded a bit creepy- now it sounds very creepy. > In that same chapter, there's an unintentional similarity between DD & > Slughorn. After Harry meets Slughorn, the text says that Harry had "a > sudden vivid mental image of a great swollen spider, spinning a web > around it, twitching a thread here and there to bring its large and > juicy flies a little closer." Spiders also knit patterns that extend > far around them, catching all passersby in their wake. Leah: So perhaps the chapter title 'Spinners End', usually taken to refer to Snape, spinning Bellatrix a yarn and being spun by Narcissa into sealing his own fate with the Unbreakable Vow, also refers to the fact that the Vow seals Snape's promise to end the biggest spinner of them all. Of course, DD is > hiding from Harry that it's been his plan for Voldemort and Harry to > kill each other all along. DD finishes with: "I take my hat off to you > - or I would, if I were not afraid of showering you in spiders." It's > all going according to plan, the pattern has been spun, and the > threads of the spider's web have been twitched to bring all the juicy > flies a little closer for the main event. > > *shivers* Leah: Harry escapes his fate of course (thanks to Voldemort's machinations), and meets his 'death' amongst broken webs. Leah From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Nov 26 15:04:28 2008 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:04:28 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185020 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > I've read the chapter titles first for the last 2 books. It didn't > > spoil anything for me, because you never really know what JKR is > > up to. > zanooda: > > You are right, but for me it was a little different in the case of DH. > I accidentally saw some spoilers online, the scan of the table of > contents among them. However, there was still hope that they were > fake. So when I looked at the table of contents in the book and > realized that it was the same one that I saw online, I knew that the > rest of the spoilers were also true, and they were some serious > spoilers :-)! Jen: I had the same experience, wondering if the table of contents was a fake until getting DH, which verified the few spoilers I'd heard about the deaths were true. I'm not sure I'd seek out spoilers again though. I read all the other HP books cold and had a better first experience taking in events rather than waiting for certain things to happen - almost like ticking them off a list. In hindsight I missed out on the emotional impact of certain events until reading the second time. (Not referring to the table of contents so much as actual plot spoilers.) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 26 16:26:30 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:26:30 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185021 lizzyben wrote: > He [Dumbledore] also made Sirius stay at GP because of Sirius' guilt over James & loyalty to Harry. Neither one could leave, because both were emotionally "hooked" into becoming prisoners & pawns in DD's game. Carol responds: Sirius Black chose to return to England. He could have stayed free and safe among the tropical birds. But once he chose to return and it became known that he was in England, it was risky to leave the house because Wormtail had described his Animagus form to Voldemort and the DEs. It was especially risky to be seen in Harry's company. Both Lucius and Draco Malfoy knew immediately who the "dog" accompanying Harry (and conspicuously putting his paws on Harry's shoulders) was. He couldn't get near the DEs to fight them or spy on them because they would recognize him and kill him. He returned to england because of Harry, but that was no doing of Dumbledore's (DD did provide him with the cave to hide in in GoF). It's only after his safety and usefulness were compromised that DD insisted he stay inside the house. He could, I suppose, have run around at night risking being seen. He could certainly have risked flying away at night on Buckbeak to some place far away. But because of Harry and because of his guilt over his role in James's death (and possibly guilt over Lily's though he never speaks of her), he chooses to remain. He also chooses to mistreat Kreacher, which contributes to his unhappiness, even though DD advised him to treat Kreacher with kindness and respect. I'm the first to concede that Dumbledore has many faults and made many mistakes, but I don't think we can blame him for Sirius Black's choices. In particular, he can't be blamed for the choices that led to black's imprisonment in Azkaban--the SK switch and going after Peter Pettigrew to kill him. Nor, IMO, can he be blamed for thinking that Black was the SK when James had told him that he would be and when all those witnesses (now Obliviated so he can't Legilimens them) claimed that they saw him blow up the street and kill Pettigrew and twelve Muggles. It certainly wasn't Dumbledore's fault that Voldemort used Harry's affection for his godfather to lure him to the MoM or that Black followed and chose to fight Bellatrix on the dais of the Veil in the Chamber of Death. Carol, not sure what DD should have done differently regarding Sirius Black, whom he was trying to keep safe From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 26 16:46:57 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:46:57 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185022 > lizzyben wrote: > > > He [Dumbledore] also made Sirius stay at GP because of Sirius' > guilt over James & loyalty to Harry. Neither one could leave, because > both were emotionally "hooked" into becoming prisoners & pawns in DD's > game. > > Carol responds: > Sirius Black chose to return to England. He could have stayed free and > safe among the tropical birds. Alla: Of course he could but for the boy he loved. When the choice is made because of the safety of the loved one, I do not believe it is a real choice so to speak IMO. Snape also chose to come to Dumbledore to ask for Lily's protection, he could have merrily continue on being a DE and I do not think Dumbledore can be blamed one bit for Snape's previous choices. However, man in the memory looks suicidal even to Harry. You think that's how suicidal man should be treated whether he made all those choices or not? Sirius is depressed in GP, it reminds him of all horrible things in his youth, he escaped from it and here we go, back again. Yes, he loved his godson, no I do not think Dumbledore should have played on it and forced him to stay IMO. > Carol, not sure what DD should have done differently regarding Sirius > Black, whom he was trying to keep safe Alla: I don't know, it feels more like he was trying to make Sirius dead to me, or at least to kill his soul whether he intended or not. I can think of quite a few udeas I can think of quite a few ideas of what Dumbledore could have done differently when Sirius was at GP. How about letting him doing something, **anything** for the Order, anything that requires doing something? Using Invisibility Cloak would to me be the first and the most obvious choice. If Dumbledore had the little understanding of psychology of the people he leads would have known that inaction is the absolutely worst thing that can be done to Sirius, the worst blow to his psyche. Inaction in the house where he had a bad memories feels even worst to me. JMO, Alla From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Wed Nov 26 21:24:13 2008 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:24:13 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185023 Sherry: > Discussion Questions > 1. What did you think as you read Harry's immediate reaction to the > knowledge that he must die? Did you find his reaction realistic? > Did this scene change your opinion of Harry in any way? Geoff: I wondered whether this was the same sort of reaction as some soldiers on the First World War had in the trenches. Many realised that they were unlikely to live through the coming battles and had to steel themselves to that possibility. In some ways they had been manipulated as Harry had by the pressure and propaganda and patriotic jingoism which had been pumped out to encourage them to volunteer to join up for their country. If you have had an opportunity to see "My Boy Jack" which featured Dan Radcliffe last year, some of this is portrayed in that film. There is an obvious difference in that Harry, strictly, didn't volunteer for this situation - he was rather unknowingly press-ganged into it. Sherry: > 2. How about Dumbledore? Did it make sense to you that Harry did > not seem to blame Dumbledore? How did you feel about Dumbledore, as > you read Harry's thoughts? Geoff: Angry because Dumbledore was relying on Harry's sense of duty and conscience to keep him to the task. Sherry: > 4. Neville has come up often in this book's chapter discussions. > Could you have imagined this Neville from what we saw of him in previous > books? Geoff: I think that, after seeing Neville with Harry at the Ministry of Magic in OOTP as "last men standing", my answer has to be "yes". Sherry: > 7. What did you feel as 17-year-old Harry put the snitch to his > mouth and said the words, "I am about to die"? Geoff: Devastated. Sherry: > 8. Were you surprised at the identity of any of the people who came > to Harry through the Resurrection Stone? Geoff: Not really. They are the people who were closest to him who had died. The only other person who might possibly have appeared could have been Dumbledore but the relationship with him - especially what had transpired in the preceding chapter - rather took took him out of the list. At this point in time, Harry has not been able to talk to him. Sherry: > 9. Did you find the interaction between Harry and his loved ones > typical, particularly of interactions between himself and Sirius and > Lupin? Did you feel Sirius and Lupin acted in character in this > scene? What about James and Lily? Did they say or do anything that > surprised you, given the little but important things we knew of them > previously? Geoff: There is a very different exchange between Harry and his parents by comparison with the others. His parents' love and pride is more obvious; they say more and are verbally more demonstrative. Sirius and Remus are quieter. Sirius seems almost flippant in his comments about death, not in tune with Harry's concerns and fears. Sherry: > 11. Harry's loved ones have promised to stay with him to the end. > Why did he drop the Resurrection Stone before entering the clearing > and meeting Voldemort? Was it accidental, just nerves, or was there > another reason? Did he not want them there with him when he died? Geoff: I believe that canon clearly intends the action to be accidental as Harry prepares to step out: "The Resurrection Stone slipped from between his numb fingers..." (UK edition p.563) He saw his supporters disappear but, having declared his presence, he had no time to recover the stone. Sherry: > 12. Were the final moments of this chapter what you expected? Did > you think there would be more, more action, more description, more > dialogue between Harry and Voldemort? Geoff: When I first read this chapter, I imagine that like thousands of others, I really didn't know where it was leading. Because I had sneaked a look at the last page, I knew that Harry had survived but I think the labyrinthian twists and turns of the plot at this point left me rather gobsmacked! Sherry: > 13. What was your immediate reaction at the end of this chapter? > Did you think, even for a moment, that Harry was really dead? Geoff: No, because as I said previously, I knew that he had survived. I also read straight on into Chapter 35 without stopping at that point to ponder deeply on the unfolding events. Sherry: > 14. What was your overall reaction to this chapter and all its > events? Geoff: In general, a superb chapter which I must admit - sotto voce - brought tears to my eyes. But, some of you may have gleaned from my comments that I tend to visualise Chapters 34-36 as a single unit with the action proceeding seamlessly from Snape's death right through to the sunrise over the window sill. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Nov 27 16:08:25 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:08:25 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185024 > > Alla: > > Of course he could but for the boy he loved. When the choice is made because of the safety of the loved one, I do not believe it is a real choice so to speak IMO. Pippin: Sirius's choice to love and protect Harry is not a real choice? He'd have been a happier person if he hadn't needed to stay because he loved Harry, so if Dumbledore really cared about Sirius, he'd have made him stop loving Harry? That can't be what you're trying to say, but logically, if Sirius has to make bad choices because he loves Harry, and we want him to make good choices, we shouldn't want him to love Harry, right? Alla: > Snape also chose to come to Dumbledore to ask for Lily's protection, > he could have merrily continue on being a DE and I do not think > Dumbledore can be blamed one bit for Snape's previous choices. > However, man in the memory looks suicidal even to Harry. You think > that's how suicidal man should be treated whether he made all those > choices or not? Pippin: Snape was giving aid and comfort to a band of murderers, and he didn't see anything wrong with that as long as the person he cared about was safe. Is it wrong to tell such a person that decent people can not even *want* to help him unless he changes his ways, but if he does change them, they will do what they can? IMO, Dumbledore was telling Snape what Lily should have told him when she slammed the door in his face instead: that she was revolted, but she'd help if he was willing to change. He was not dealing with Snape as a professional who is supposed to keep his personal feelings to himself, but man-to-man. > Alla: > > I don't know, it feels more like he was trying to make Sirius dead to me, or at least to kill his soul whether he intended or not. How about letting him doing something, **anything** for the Order, anything that requires doing something? Using Invisibility Cloak would to me be the first and the most obvious choice. > > If Dumbledore had the little understanding of psychology of the > people he leads would have known that inaction is the absolutely > worst thing that can be done to Sirius, the worst blow to his psyche. Pippin: How can Dumbledore be such a deft manipulator and have no knowledge of Sirius's psyche? The problem, IMO, is not that Sirius had nothing important to do, the problem was that Sirius defined "important" as "life-threatening". He didn't feel worthy unless he was braving dangers, but he was like a compulsive gambler -- every risk he survived tempted him to take a greater one. The cloak would have done him no good because he would have used it recklessly, deliberately courting danger as he did when he fought Bella. Sirius did not have to stay at GP -- he could have been hidden elsewhere. My sense is he *chose* to be there, because it was as close to the action as Dumbledore would allow him to be. I am not so sure Sirius was as healthy as he seemed to be in GoF. Many disturbed people can pull it together for an hour or two. Sirius was spending most of his time as a dog, begging handouts or hunting rats. He wasn't trying hold down a job or get along with people day-to-day, and I'm not so sure he could have. Pippin wishing a Happy Thanksgiving to those who are celebrating From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 27 19:18:59 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 19:18:59 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185025 > > Alla: > > > > Of course he could but for the boy he loved. When the choice is made > because of the safety of the loved one, I do not believe it is a real > choice so to speak IMO. > > Pippin: > Sirius's choice to love and protect Harry is not a real choice? >That can't be what you're trying to say, but logically, if Sirius has > to make bad choices because he loves Harry, and we want him to make > good choices, we shouldn't want him to love Harry, right? Alla: No that was not what I was trying to say of course. What I was saying that when someone makes a choice which is hurting him or her and when somebody is making that choice because of the loved one's safety, that is not really a choice. In other words, of course Sirius had a choice to not return to GP 12, however since he made a choice to be closer to Harry, for Harry's safety and piece of mind (unless you are disputing this part), I do not think that he really had a choice. Does that make sense? I mean, of course, please I understand that you will say that there is always a choice and in theory I agree, however, in practice no I do not. Do I think Xeno Lovegood really had a choice when he betrayed Harry? No I do not. I mean, no that is not an exact parallel of course, I would think he should have tried to maybe contact the Order, however hopefully it makes some sense. Do I think Narcissa had a choice when she went to Snape to ask to protect Draco? Not really, no I do not. I mean, again this is not an exact analogy of course, since I definitely think that Narcissa should have gone to Dumbledore (although I wonder what sort of help she would have gotten), BUT I do not believe that she had a choice in the matter of whether to do something or **not to do something**. And when Carol argued that Sirius had a choice to stay in the tropical paradise my only response is um, no, not really, not in my opinion. Not if he loved Harry and I am convinced that he did. And what I think Dumbledore should have done is NOT to capitalize on it, but help Sirius to survive that choice, both *mentally and physically* IMO. > Alla: > > Snape also chose to come to Dumbledore to ask for Lily's protection, > > he could have merrily continue on being a DE and I do not think > > Dumbledore can be blamed one bit for Snape's previous choices. > > However, man in the memory looks suicidal even to Harry. You think > > that's how suicidal man should be treated whether he made all those > > choices or not? > > Pippin: > Snape was giving aid and comfort to a band of murderers, and he > didn't see anything wrong with that as long as the person he cared > about was safe. Is it wrong to tell such a person that decent > people can not even *want* to help him unless he changes his ways, but > if he does change them, they will do what they can? > > IMO, Dumbledore was telling Snape what Lily should have told him when > she slammed the door in his face instead: that she was revolted, but > she'd help if he was willing to change. He was not dealing with Snape > as a professional who is supposed to keep his personal feelings to > himself, but man-to-man. Alla: Yes and as I said I do not blame Dumbledore one bit for Snape's past choices. And I also mentioned before, not in this thread, but previously that I think Snape deserved **every word** he got from Dumbledore, including **you disgust me**. However, to me we are talking about two separate things. Snape deserving to hear those things does not equal Snape deserving being manipulated in the service of Light when Snape IMO is at his lowest. But I am sure you will ask me what I think Dumbledore should have done for me to consider him a compassionate man in this scene and at the same time leader of light? Because see I think those two things are not mutually exclusive. I absolutely think that the member of the gang of killers and torturers needs to hear you disgust me, definitely. However, asking him to serve Dumbledore in exchange for the protection of those whom Dumbledore **already** supposed to protect? Um, what the heck Dumbledore? How about telling Snape that yes, thank you we will protect our own. I will tell you more, I do not even mind Dumbledore telling Snape that as a condition Dumbledore insists Snape to quit. I mean, after all why exactly Dumbledore cannot make sure that his soldiers will have one less DE to fight? And then give him Draco's choice at least. Tell him that Light will protect him. That's it. Do not force him to serve you, please. I mean, I was glad to read it, since I cannot stand Snape. However, the fact that I cannot stand Snape does not change my opinion of Dumbledore's actions here. I think he acts very cruelly here. And if Snape tells you that he wants to serve you when he is not at such low point in his life, at least few weeks after, sure why not. But this night when all his thoughts are about Lily and how guilty he may feel? > Pippin: > How can Dumbledore be such a deft manipulator and have no knowledge of > Sirius's psyche? Alla: Oh no not such a deft manipulator, just the one IMO as what Lizzyben describes, the one who plays his psychic trauma over and over again at other people. Pippin: The problem, IMO, is not that Sirius had nothing > important to do, the problem was that Sirius defined "important" as > "life-threatening". He didn't feel worthy unless he was braving > dangers, but he was like a compulsive gambler -- every risk he > survived tempted him to take a greater one. Alla: Really? So what did he have to do for the Order in OOP? How about writing something? How about strategy conversations? Letters campaign to newspapers to clear Dumbledore and Harry? Anything? What was he doing that could be classified of help that was not life threatening but did not satisfy Sirius as being life threatening enough? As far as I remember - nothing, not even something that did not require leaving the house. I also wonder, what was so very life threatening about notifying old crowd task at the end of GoF and lying low at Lupin afterwards? Sirius seemed to embrace it with gusto to me. Pippin: > The cloak would have done him no good because he would have used it > recklessly, deliberately courting danger as he did when he > fought Bella. Alla: Dumbledore did not try, so we will never know. Pippin: > Sirius did not have to stay at GP -- he could have been hidden > elsewhere. My sense is he *chose* to be there, because it was as > close to the action as Dumbledore would allow him to be. Alla: IMO he chose to be where Harry was. Pippin: > I am not so sure Sirius was as healthy as he seemed to be in GoF. Many > disturbed people can pull it together for an hour or two. Sirius was > spending most of his time as a dog, begging handouts or hunting rats. > He wasn't trying hold down a job or get along with people day-to- day, > and I'm not so sure he could have. Alla: I do not think that he was perfectly healthy in GoF however I do think that he started recovery and I do think that GP is what caused the relapse and yes, I think Dumbledore is responsible for that at least partially. > Pippin > wishing a Happy Thanksgiving to those who are celebrating > Alla: Me too :) From leahstill at hotmail.com Thu Nov 27 22:05:58 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:05:58 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <> >> > Alla: > > > I absolutely think that the member of the gang of killers and > torturers needs to hear you disgust me, definitely. Leah:But even there, we're back to Dumbledore's own ghosts. The disgust is not I think over Snape being a Death Eater in itself, (not that Dumbledore approves of that). But when Tom Riddle came for a job having just founded the gang of killers and torturers, Dumbledore managed to have a disapproving but perfectly civil conversation and even a drink with him,without needing to express his disgust in the slightest. But in Snape, Dumbledore sees a boy who could have chosen otherwise, who let himself be seduced by the dark, and thereby endangered a girl he cared about. That disgust goes back a long way and now Dumbledore has a chance to direct it outwards. Leah (otherwise agreeing in general with Alla's points) From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Thu Nov 27 22:12:32 2008 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:12:32 -0000 Subject: Changed character perceptions (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185027 Geoff: The following comments may possibly move in the same direction as some posts written a while ago by Alla about how our view of some characters in the books has shifted as the story has progressed through all its stages. I have wanted to start this as a thread for two or three weeks but unexpected family developments have made it difficult to even keep up with the posts on Main until now. I have wanted to try to voice my thoughts on how our personal perception of characters has been moulded or re-moulded by the events of succeeding books in the series. Let me start by saying that I am not the world's greatest critical analyst because I have a tendency to read books at face value; I have said in the past that I like to fall into "the willing suspension of disbelief" without seeking a deeper agenda. For example, I interpreted the end of HBP as it superficially appeared and it wasn't until the long threads on whether Snape was following Dumbledore's instructions began to surface that my critical faculties kicked into gear and I began to view the action a little more suspiciously. So I offer a few of my changed perceptions as a possible catalyst to threads written using a broader brush. To begin with, Dumbledore. Daring to diverge into the Medium- which-dare-not-speak-its-name, who has been nearer to embodying him ? Richard Harris or Michael Gambon? Or neither? The first books did present a Richard Harris-esque person. Other-worldly, eccentric and yet with an apparent wish to steer Harry safely through the difficult waters entering the Wizarding World. And Harry sees him in that way; a kindly mentor who gives him back his father's cloak and who quietly steers him when necessary as with the Mirror of Erised. We are told that he is thought to be omniscient and also all-powerful. And yet, when I look over the books, I begin to see that the proponents of Manipulative!Dumbledore might have found some truth in the conspiracy theories which abounded. I have read some very convincing fan fiction in the past based some of these ideas. In DH he is revealed as a leader with feet of clay, with a record of disastrous actions in his teens and early years which affected his family and him long afterwards. I have begun to see him as much like ourselves, with skeletons in the cupboard and, with JKR's avowed Christian basis behind her writing, representative of any of us on our life's way trying to pick up the pieces from failed actions. He has learned from the early failures but I have become very wary of taking his actions as being altruistic and could draw parallels with a point I made very recently in another thread about the way in which young men were drawn into the armed services in the First World War especially by leaders such as Kitchener who proclaimed the glory of a just war and were prepared to treat troops as dispensable numbers on a muster list. Hence my perception of him now is a good deal more suspicious than when we first met in PS. And Draco Malfoy? Now there's a name with which to conjure! Here in some ways we have a mirror opposite to my perception of Dumbledore. When he first appears, we are made to see him as an arrogant, self- opinionated brat with an over-inflated view of his place in things. He has firm opinions about half-bloods and Muggleborns and apparently despises folk who do not have the financial or society clout of the Malfoy family. But as the books go on, I begin to see someone who is possibly covering loneliness and a lack of love with this veneer of disdain. Does he have any real friends? Crabbe and Goyle appear to just act as heavy men and bouncers for him and, although the Slytherins unite in their attitudes to the other houses, I never see any real friendship amongst them, more jockeying for position and watching their own backs or utilising each other for their own ends. Despite this, I have always and a sneaking liking for Draco. Brought up as an only child, there are occasional suggestions that although prepared to display his affluence through his son, Lucius is not always the kindest of parents; there is evidence that he can be very critical when Draco does not come up to his expectations. There is a sort of bond between Harry and himself in that they both maintain the level of dislike throughout the story and yet both seem to take an intense interest in what the other is doing. I felt that, at the end of HBP, where we find him desperate in Myrtle's bathroom, his lashing out at Harry is more out of humiliation than hatred and, in the famous confrontation with Dumbledore, his hesitancy to carry out his task proclaims that he has, or is developing, serious reservations about the surroundings in which he finds himself. We see more of this division in his thinking in DH. In the first chapter, he is obviously terrified and discomforted. Later in the book, there is the interesting moment where he apparently fails to recognise Harry at Malfoy Manor; his expression is described as "full of reluctance, even fear" (DH, "Malfoy Manor", p.372 UK edition). And, of course, any link between him and Harry is strengthened when Harry saves him in the Room of Requirement. I had hoped that JKR would have produced a visible thawing of the relationship ? even a rapprochement ? after the events of DH. I like to think that the "curt nod" that Harry received from him at the railway station in 2015 indicated some sort of contact; fan fiction writers have certainly investigated this. What of Voldemort. Has your perception of him changed? At the beginning of the books, he is this brooding, evil shadow who has so terrified the Wizarding World that the very mention of his real name makes hearers shake in their shoes. We know that he, or his agents, make several attempts to deal with Harry but, to me, as time goes on, he diminishes in stature. Yes, he is a violent, demanding and mass murderer but he shows a very odd grasp of events, possibly due to his increasing megalomania. There are places where he could have killed Harry and finished the matter off for good but either failed to try or was so wrapped up in the dramatics of the situation that he lost the plot. The most obvious case is in GOF where, instead of killing Harry immediately, he decides to play with him as a cat would with a mouse: " And I am now going to prove my power by killing him, here and now, in front of you all when there is no Dumbledore to help him and no mother to die for him. I will give him his chance. He will be allowed to fight and you will be left in no doubt which of us is the stronger Now untie him, Wormtail, and give him back his wand.: (GOF "The Death Eaters", p.571 UK edition) How full of his own importance. How convinced of his power. How forgetful ? not of Lily's sacrifice ? but of the way in which Harry avoided death at the hands of Quirrell in PS. Did he, in the quiet of his own musings away from the Death Eaters, regret his brashness and hubris in wanting to show that he could overpower and kill an opponent who seemed to be far below him in ability and control? I seriously doubt it. Look at his reaction in the final face-off with Harry: '"Accident, was it, when my mother dies to save me?" asked Harry... ..."Accident, when I decided to fight in that graveyard? Accident, that I didn't defend myself tonight and still survived and returned to fight again?" "Accidents!" screamed Voldemort... ..."Accidents and chance and the fact that you crouched and snivelled behind the skirts of greater men and women and permitted me to kill them for you?" What was he doing during OOTP? We see very little action on his part to directly get to Harry while his minions messed around trying to undermine the Ministry. Could he not have found some opportunity for a further attempt on Harry's life or was he still wanting to orchestrate a highly public Wagnerian G?tterd?mmerung end for Harry? I am reminded of Hitler's vacillations during World War Two, particularly the moment when he cancelled the planned invasion of Britain and thus probably removed the possibility of overrunning the whole of Europe and chose to attack Russia. I am also reminded of Saruman in LOTR whose overweening pride led him to lose everything, including his life in his attempts to show himself as a great leader. So, there are three characters in the books for whom I have revised my initial perceptions. I have others but I have said enough for the present; I wonder whether other members of the group will share my changes of opinion or feel that there are other points of view ? and, like myself, have other characters whom they would like to bring into the spotlight? From wildirishrose at fiber.net Thu Nov 27 06:40:00 2008 From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 06:40:00 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185028 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: I'm not as deep as thinker as the other people on this list, but I'll give some of my reactions as simple as they probably sound. 7. What did you feel as 17-year-old Harry put the snitch to his mouth and said the words, "I am about to die"? Marianne: I was surprised at how direct that comment was. How matter of fact it was. I kept thinking he couldn't die. Age 17 was too young to be saying "I am about to die." 9. Did you find the interaction between Harry and his loved ones typical, particularly of interactions between himself and Sirius and Lupin? Did you feel Sirius and Lupin acted in character in this scene? What about James and Lily? Did they say or do anything that surprised you, given the little but important things we knew of them previously? Marianne: I can only answer about Harry's parents. James and Lily staying with him with him did not surprise me at all. Given the love they have for Harry, especially Lily's love, it seems natural they would stay close with him. 14. What was your overall reaction to this chapter and all its events? Marianne: Simply put. I cried through most of the chapter. And no matter how many times I read and listen to that chapter I will always cry. Marianne The fall own't kill you The landing will From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 27 20:39:32 2008 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 20:39:32 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185029 > Geoff Bannister wrote: > I have on more than one occasion said that > chapters 34-36 are for me the finest > chapters that JKR wrote in the whole series. I agree, but isn't it odd that chapter 34, one of the best in the entire series should have the dullest name, it's almost as bad as "More Of The Same". And when Voldemort is sneering at Harry just before he "kills" him, to come full circle he really should have said "The Man Who Died". What a great chapter title that would have been! > I must confess that to avoid potential cardiac arrest, > I turned to the last page when I first got the book. Not me, I figured that however many times I reread the books this is the one and only time in my life when I could start a Harry Potter novel and not know if he would be alive or dead at the end, and I just didn't want to miss out on that opportunity zanooda Wrote: > zanooda, who always thought that Eggplant was a "he" I thought I cleared up that confusion in a previous post when I told the world that my real first name is "Pat". Eggplant From wildirishrose at fiber.net Thu Nov 27 05:39:56 2008 From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 05:39:56 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185030 Eggplant107" wrote: > I also wonder if JRR was ever tempted to end things at that point, > imagine if the entire saga had ended with the words "He saw the mouth > move and a flash of green light, and everything was gone." > > THE END > > You've got to admit that would have been sort of cool. And the riots > and blood in the streets that would produce would be most amusing. > I talked to a couple of people that said JKR took the easy way out and not killed off Harry in the end. One man actually told me he thought JKR was a coward for not killing Harry. However, for me it couldn't end in his death. I guess I'm a sucker for a happy ending. Marianne P.S. Sorry for the question. Eggplant, you sound exacly like a man I know in England that thought riots and blood in the streets would be amusing. Would you happen to be him? :o) From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 28 04:33:25 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 04:33:25 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185031 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > > zanooda, who always thought that Eggplant was a "he" > I thought I cleared up that confusion in a previous post when I told > the world that my real first name is "Pat". Sorry :-)! I thought "Pat" was short for "Patrick", LOL! The word "eggplant" is of the masculine gender in my language, and I noticed that the gender of the word always influences me this way :-). zanooda, sincerely apologizing for the OT post ;-(. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Nov 28 12:47:21 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:47:21 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185032 Marianne I talked to a couple of people that said JKR took the easy way out and not killed off Harry in the end. One man actually told me he thought JKR was a coward for not killing Harry. However, for me it couldn't end in his death. I guess I'm a sucker for a happy ending. Potioncat: I can understand the other deaths in the series, even if I don't like them, but I don't think killing off Harry would have been fitting ending for the series. Here's a JKR interview that explains her reasoning in keeping Harry alive. You can find the rest of her thoughts at the link. http://harryahistory.com/2008/10/on-harrys-survival.html JKR: In many ways it would have been a neater ending to kill him. For sure, I knew that all along. felt that the books' overriding message was that love is the most powerful force in this world. My model with Harry really was war veterans, who have seen horrors and are asked to go home and rebuild, and go back to ordinary life and care for a family, be a father - particularly be a father - [it is] a difficult job, in troubled times. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185029 > zanooda, who always thought that Eggplant was a "he" Eggplant: I thought I cleared up that confusion in a previous post when I told the world that my real first name is "Pat". Potioncat: Oh, eggplant, you have a wicked sense of humor! At least in the US, the name Pat is as likely to be male as female. From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 28 16:53:35 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 16:53:35 -0000 Subject: Changed character perceptions (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185033 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > Geoff: > The following comments may possibly move in the same direction > as some posts written a while ago by Alla about how our view of > some characters in the books has shifted as the story has progressed > through all its stages. Montavilla47: Interesting thread! In thinking about a reply, I'm finding that my feelings changed about most of the major and some of the minor characters in the series. You started with Dumbledore. I, too, found my feelings for the old man changing through the books. In the first four books, Dumbledore did seem omniscient and powerful enough to let events play out without interfering, unless it was absolutely needed. I liked very much that he was allowing Harry (who had powerful enemies) take managed risks. I suspected that he might have been watching Harry in the obstacle course of PS/SS, and maybe even in CoS--that he might have sent Fawkes himself. My feelings about Dumbledore were a bit shaken in OotP when he gave Harry the wrap-up of events, because he was a bit of jerk. What bugged me most was the remark about giving Ron the Prefect position because Harry would be too busy... doing what, exactly? But it wasn't that. It was that, when Harry's beloved Godfather has just died, whether or not he got to wear a shiny badge seemed like the most irrelevant thing in the world. Nevertheless, Dumbledore took time to assure Harry that Ron was just not quite as good as Harry, an idea that did not need emphasis. My Dumbledore-o-meter plunged in the third chapter of HBP when Dumbledore behaved so badly to the Dursleys. He barged into their home, shoved them around like puppets, bonked them on the heads with alcoholic drinks, and then lectured them on their lack of manners and bad parenting skills. I know a lot of readers liked this scene and found it a proper outcome for the Dursleys' behavior, but I found it extremely offensive. The Prince's Tale didn't change my perception of Dumbledore, it merely intensified my feelings. **** The Dursleys gradually became more sympathetic in my eyes. I think it might have been in GoF when I started to warm up to them. Because, although it was annoying to Harry, I thought it was very supportive of Petunia to change everyone's diet to help Dudley lose weight. And, although Harry found Dudley's boxing to be a terrible development, it did show that Dudley was capable of some kind of discipline. I was kind of proud of Dudley for doing something that required hard work-- even if it meant that Dudley had more power to beat up kids in the neighborhood (which, of course, is abhorable.) But you don't get good at boxing without taking a good number of blows, so it showed that Dudley could take it as well as dish it out. And, when Petunia got the howler and insisted that Harry stay, I realized that what looked like meanness on her part may just have been terror. And, looking back on the earlier books, it seemed like Petunia and Vernon weren't just trying to quash Harry's magical ability out of spite, but because it *was* dangerous and their family had no way to defend themselves against wizards, whether good or bad. (Ironically, every bad thing that happened to the Dursleys was due to the "good" guys. Even though Umbridge was a nasty person, she was supposedly on the side of Ministry.) **** My perception changed about Harry in HBP as well. I remember that the first time I read OotP I was very disppointed with Harry, because he seemed to turn so angry and unpleasant. After several rereads, I thought better of him and realized he was probably going through a phase. I thought very well of him when I received my copy of HBP. But, he started to annoy me dreadfully again. There were a number of small things and one major one that did it. In minor terms: He checked to make sure that Ron didn't do as well as he did on the O.W.L.s. That may be realistic, but it's petty. I was really proud of Harry for getting over his disappointment when Ron got the Prefect badge. Making sure your best friend didn't outdo you in *any* of the courses? Eesh. He took satisfaction in seeing that Marietta Edgecombe was still disfigured. That's both petty and vindictive. It bugged me that Harry felt it necessary to call Luna and Neville "cool" in order to sit with them. If someone is your friend, their coolness quotient should not be a factor. He took credit for the Prince's work to win rewards and curry favor with Slughorn. That was dishonest behavior. (Just to be fair to Harry, I will mention that I was glad he confided his suspcions about Draco to Arthur, Lupin, and Dumbledore. That was a good thing to do, even if they seemed to brush him off.) Here's the big thing that turned me off to Harry: He dropped the D.A. The year before he (and Hermione) had asked a lot of their fellow students. They asked them to give up time, risk punishment and expulsion, in order to prepare themselves to fight Voldemort. I felt that Harry had a responsibility to those students, but when it became inconvenient for him, he simply dropped them. It's not that I was dying to see more exciting scenes of people practicing their Patroni. It's that you don't ask people to follow you and then six months later say, "I'm bored. Go home." At least, not when the main reason you gave for the cause was opposing an enemy who is stronger and more dangerous than ever. And, as a reader, I'd rather have seen practice sessions on dueling than Quidditch. **** I think my perceptions of Slughorn are reluctantly becoming more positive. I really didn't like Slughorn, but I have to admit that his vices were small, and he did come through in the end. My feeling about Lupin is reluctantly worse. I wasn't upset about his leaving Tonks. Honestly, lots of men have had to leave their wives, pregnant or not, during war time and if he could have helped the Trio, I think it would have been the right thing to do. But, I never felt that Lupin really wanted to marry Tonks and it seems to me like he gave in to peer pressure. That's what disappoints me about him. **** Montavilla47 From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 28 21:55:20 2008 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 21:55:20 -0000 Subject: Changed character perceptions (long). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185034 "Geoff Bannister" wrote a interesting post: > He [Dumbledore] has learned from the early failures Yes I agree, and I think that's why Dumbledore refused the position of Ministry Of Magic when it was repeatedly offered to him. He very much wanted the job, but a wise man recognizes his own weaknesses and he knew that he could not be trusted with that much power. I think that could also explain his EXTREME politeness, even to the Death Eaters in the Tower who were trying to kill him! He knew through bitter experience the extraordinary power that he could unleash in a thoughtless instant, and so it became his lifetime habit to be excruciatingly polite, in other words to keep his wand on "safety" most of the time. > but I have become very wary of taking his > actions as being altruistic But I can't entirely agree on that, I think Dumbledore always saw himself as altruistic, and even an objective third party would conclude that he was altruistic nearly all the time. Nearly. However that doesn't mean the man can't be manipulative deceitful and cold as a mafia hit man when he needs to be. For example, from page one book one, Dumbledore was leading Harry to death like a pig to slaughter. As the years went by and the better he came to know Harry the harder it became for him to do to do this. Dumbledore came to love Harry, there is no doubt about that, and It's "the flaw in the plan" that Dumbledore talked about in book 5 (not the one in book 7). He didn't think he'd have the strength to complete the plan, but it turned out there was no flaw, he did have the strength. I insist that is altruism because if he had not sacrificed someone he loved the entire world would have been turned into a nightmare, and he was more than willing to sacrifice himself as well. It was horrible but had to be done. I don't think Dumbledore thought Harry had a snowball's chance in hell of surviving that confrontation with Voldemort in the woods; hence his absolutely delirious delight in Kings Cross when he discovered that somehow, miraculously, he had. Eggplant From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Nov 29 00:35:14 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 00:35:14 -0000 Subject: Changed character perceptions (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185035 Montavilla: > My feelings about Dumbledore were a bit shaken in OotP when > he gave Harry the wrap-up of events, because he was a bit of jerk. > What bugged me most was the remark about giving Ron the Prefect > position because Harry would be too busy... doing what, exactly? > But it wasn't that. It was that, when Harry's beloved Godfather > has just died, whether or not he got to wear a shiny badge seemed > like the most irrelevant thing in the world. Nevertheless, > Dumbledore took time to assure Harry that Ron was just not quite > as good as Harry, an idea that did not need emphasis. > > > The Prince's Tale didn't change my perception of Dumbledore, > it merely intensified my feelings. Pippin: My perception of Dumbledore has changed more than once after reading DH. Looking back, I came to think that Dumbledore's commitments not to lie in PS/SS and to tell Harry everything in OOP, which I once defended, had been made as emptily and cynically as Harry's promises to Griphook in DH. But when I actually reread the final chapters of OOP, I felt differently. To my surprise, it read as if Dumbledore really was prepared to tell Harry everything, mentioning the scar and saying that Harry wasn't nearly as angry with him as he should be. Darn right! But the topic turns to Sirius and Kreacher, and when it comes back to Harry again, Dumbledore seems to have reached a decision that he's only going to speak about the prophecy for now. In the light of the revelations in DH, trying to get Harry to understand about Sirius's flaws feels less like an intrusion and more like a test -- if Harry was not ready to deal with the truth about Sirius, how could he be expected to deal with the truth about himself? He wasn't ready yet, IMO. He'd have refused to understand, or he'd have felt horrible and contaminated, as he did earlier in the book when he feared that Voldemort had possessed him. In OOP, Harry was still child enough to need to see himself as an innocent. He wasn't yet ready to understand that in Rowling's world the urge to do evil isn't unique to the bad guys -- the instinct to harm others is in everyone whether they recognize it or not. It's noteworthy that when the truth finally comes to him in DH, he can recognize his kinship with Voldemort and Snape without feeling polluted by it. It reads to me now as if Dumbledore wasn't talking about the prefect's badge at all -- he was apologizing in code for not being able to do as he had promised and tell Harry everything when the time came -- because Harry had enough to be going on with. That's what the tear was for, IMO. Montavilla: > Here's the big thing that turned me off to Harry: He dropped the > D.A. The year before he (and Hermione) had asked a lot of their > fellow students. They asked them to give up time, risk punishment > and expulsion, in order to prepare themselves to fight Voldemort. > I felt that Harry had a responsibility to those students, but when > it became inconvenient for him, he simply dropped them. Pippin: Um, *they* had already dropped him. When Hermione called them to help Harry find out about Sirius in OOP, only Neville, Ginny and Luna responded. *I* think it's because the others thought, like Cho, that Hermione had gone too far in punishing Marietta. Harry seemed to think they'd lost interest because they wouldn't need DADA coaching anymore. But that Neville was able to revive the group argues that there was something else to it. Certainly Neville didn't find it necessary to punish a fellow student. In fact, he refused to. Pippin From kernsac at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 01:44:03 2008 From: kernsac at gmail.com (Peggy Kern) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 17:44:03 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Changed character perceptions (long) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185036 Montavilla: > Here's the big thing that turned me off to Harry: He dropped the > D.A. The year before he (and Hermione) had asked a lot of their > fellow students. They asked them to give up time, risk punishment > and expulsion, in order to prepare themselves to fight Voldemort. > I felt that Harry had a responsibility to those students, but when > it became inconvenient for him, he simply dropped them. Peggy: I see the situation differently. In HBP, Neville asked if they were going to have more D.A. classes, and Harry said they didn't need to, because they had a DDA teacher. I got the impression he was doing it because they had no teacher, not as some extra thing to give them additional help in fighting Voldemort. So it appeared to me he just didn't see a need to continue to teach them. Peggy From iam.kemper at gmail.com Sat Nov 29 03:29:16 2008 From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kempermentor) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 03:29:16 -0000 Subject: Changed character perceptions (long). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185037 > > Geoff: > > but I have become very wary of taking his > > actions as being altruistic > eggplant: I insist that is altruism because if he had not sacrificed someone he loved the entire world would have been turned into a nightmare, and he was more than willing to sacrifice himself as well. It was horrible but had to be done. Kemper now: I don't think sacrificing someone for the greater good is altruistic. It's more utilitarian. Kemper From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 29 05:30:11 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 05:30:11 -0000 Subject: Changed character perceptions (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185038 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Um, *they* had already dropped him. When Hermione called them to help > Harry find out about Sirius in OOP, only Neville, Ginny and Luna > responded. *I* think it's because the others thought, like Cho, that > Hermione had gone too far in punishing Marietta. zanooda: Harry didn't call to the DA about Sirius. Ginny and Luna were there by accident - they heard Harry screaming to Hermione and came to investigate :-). Neville also was there by accident - he just tried to defend Ginny when the IS apprehended her and Luna, so he got caught. When Harry went to fetch his IC before breaking into Umbridge's office, he actually met Seamus and Dean, and he didn't ask them to do anything. It was in HBP that Harry asked Hermione to try and summon as many DA members before leaving for the cave, and here the story becomes a little murky :-). Later Harry thinks that Neville and Luna were the only ones to respond because they missed the DA most and still checked their coins while the others didn't. This is all very well where Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws are concerned, but I don't understand why Ron and Hermione needed the coins at all to call Neville and other Gryffindors - they were all right there in the Gryffindor tower :-). From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Nov 29 19:10:51 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 19:10:51 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185039 Alla: > And what I think Dumbledore should have done is NOT to capitalize on it, but help Sirius to survive that choice, both *mentally and physically* IMO. Pippin: But if he had let Sirius run unnecessary risks for the Order, wouldn't he be taking advantage of Sirius's weaknesses? Is it okay if Sirius wants to risk his life for thrills, but not if he's willing to risk his happiness to keep himself available for Harry? It's not that Dumbledore was refusing to let Harry's loved ones risk themselves. Molly, Arthur and Lupin are all sent into danger, not to mention Ron and Hermione. But Dumbledore, Snape, Molly, Lupin and Harry himself all felt that given the opportunity, Sirius would take risks that were unnecessary. I think if such a diverse group of people agree on something, it's probably true. And if it is true, then Sirius would endanger not only himself, but the mission he was sent to perform. It would have been totally irresponsible of Dumbledore to use Sirius in that way. > Alla: > > > But I am sure you will ask me what I think Dumbledore should have > done for me to consider him a compassionate man in this scene and at the same time leader of light? Because see I think those two things are not mutually exclusive. > > I absolutely think that the member of the gang of killers and > torturers needs to hear you disgust me, definitely. However, asking > him to serve Dumbledore in exchange for the protection of those whom Dumbledore **already** supposed to protect? Pippin: That's not quite the situation. Harry would have been protected anyway, but James and Lily were not civilians. They were Order members, putting themselves in harm's way to protect others. Snape, whether he realized it or not, was asking Dumbledore to take Lily out of the fight. Dumbledore was demanding that Snape accept a package deal: he'll take Lily out of the fight only if Snape will agree that James and Harry also should be protected. Dumbledore was serving notice that Snape wouldn't be allowed to use the Order as he'd hoped to use Voldemort -- to dispose of Lily's family so he could have her to himself. But that meant DD would lose two fighters -- was it wrong for him to ask what Snape could offer in return? Alla: > And then give him Draco's choice at least. Tell him that Light will > protect him. That's it. Pippin: After Lily died, Snape didn't *want* protection. He already had it. He believed that Voldemort was gone forever. Draco's choice wouldn't have helped him. He didn't want to go off and nurse his wounds, and there wasn't anyone left that he wanted to save. He wanted to die. > Alla: > > Oh no not such a deft manipulator, just the one IMO as what Lizzyben describes, the one who plays his psychic trauma over and over again at other people. Pippin: Why single out Dumbledore when the whole wizarding world is guilty? The magical world has locked itself away, and those who can't or won't stay in the closet are either driven out of civilized society altogether or imprisoned perforce. It wasn't Albus who decided that Arianna had to be kept hidden for her own safety. His parents did that, because they knew the Ministry wouldn't think she could be trusted to obey the statutes of secrecy. Albus rebelled against that, and wanted to lead the wizards out of hiding. He was weary of looking after Arianna and of trying to keep Aberforth's behavior in bounds. But if he'd refused to do it, the WW would have stepped in. The whole wizarding world is repeating the trauma it suffered in breaking away from the Muggles -- I think JKR herself said something to this effect. > Alla: > > Really? So what did he have to do for the Order in OOP? Pippin: Sirius did participate in strategy meetings. He could have helped cleanse the house -- it might have been therapeutic for him. He certainly enjoyed throwing away his parents' possessions. But it seems he couldn't take much contact with people, even Harry. He spent most of his time in his room even when Harry was there. Alla: > > I also wonder, what was so very life threatening about notifying old crowd task at the end of GoF and lying low at Lupin afterwards? > Sirius seemed to embrace it with gusto to me. > Dumbledore did not try, so we will never know. Pippin: Hmmmm. Dumbledore did give Sirius a mission. We don't know how well he performed it, but we do know that afterward, everyone, including Molly who hadn't known Sirius in the old days, felt he couldn't be trusted not to take unnecessary risks. Sirius never disputed it, either. Pippin From kersberg at chello.nl Sat Nov 29 19:56:46 2008 From: kersberg at chello.nl (kamion53) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 19:56:46 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185040 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > Marianne > > I talked to a couple of people that said JKR took the easy way out > and not killed off Harry in the end. One man actually told me he > thought JKR was a coward for not killing Harry. > > However, for me it couldn't end in his death. I guess I'm a sucker > for a happy ending. > > Potioncat: > I can understand the other deaths in the series, even if I don't like > them, but I don't think killing off Harry would have been fitting > ending for the series. Here's a JKR interview that explains her > reasoning in keeping Harry alive. You can find the rest of her > thoughts at the link. > > http://harryahistory.com/2008/10/on-harrys-survival.html > > JKR: In many ways it would have been a neater ending to kill him. For > sure, I knew that all along. felt that the books' overriding message > was that love is the most powerful force in this world. My model with > Harry really was war veterans, who have seen horrors and are asked to > go home and rebuild, and go back to ordinary life and care for a > family, be a father - particularly be a father - [it is] a difficult > job, in troubled times. > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185029 > > > zanooda, who always thought that Eggplant was a "he" > > Eggplant: > I thought I cleared up that confusion in a previous post when I told > the world that my real first name is "Pat". > > Potioncat: > Oh, eggplant, you have a wicked sense of humor! > > At least in the US, the name Pat is as likely to be male as female. > Kamion's remark: My model with quote JKR: Harry really was war veterans, who have seen horrors and are asked to go home and rebuild, and go back to ordinary life and care for a family, be a father - particularly be a father - [it is] a difficult. Nice Jo, when are you going to write THAT book? It could be very interesting to read your version of that process, that hunderds of fanwriters of variated plumage have touched in also so many variations. Or do you want us to believe that process has been covered by " 19 Years later"? I don't know who she is trying to fool, but I don't buy it. This whole veteranpart is an intervieuw JKR beter not had let go public, because it is saying: " I wanted to make a painting all in green." while presenting a painting in red with no green at all. When she had said in the intervieuw: " I wanted Harry's deepest wish as seen in the Mirror of Erised come true, which is to have a family of his own." I would not have such trouble with this grandeurlike statements about veterans. After the battle is done there is just a huge gap and a glimpse of Joe Average bringing his kid to school, nothing more nothing less and it has a certain charme. Don't make it look like being more interesting and deep then it is, because it is far from deep. It is even pretty shallow. I wonder if she even really took a deeper look into the process real veterans go through, did she had personal experience with veterans coming from a war? When starting Harry Potter it was about 10 years after the Falkland War of 1982, time enough to have things settle down and the trauma's start emerging. The BBC made some drama about it in those days. Was that her source, her motivation, her experience? I haven't seen any of it in any biop so far, so her veterantheme is pretty much abstract and very badly executed, or better not at all. From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 29 07:14:40 2008 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 07:14:40 -0000 Subject: Changed character perceptions (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185041 "pippin_999" Wrote: > When Hermione called them to help Harry find > out about Sirius in OOP, only Neville, > Ginny and Luna responded. *I* think it's > because the others thought, like Cho, > that Hermione had gone too far in punishing Marietta. If so then it was lucky they didn't come along. I certainly wouldn't want anybody that weak and squeamish guarding my back in a war situation as Harry was that day at the ministry. This is life and death and there is no time to cry over pimples. > Certainly Neville didn't find it necessary to > punish a fellow student. In fact, he refused to. That's because unlike Marietta they had done nothing that put their lives in danger. Eggplant From catlady at wicca.net Sun Nov 30 01:46:50 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 01:46:50 -0000 Subject: Snape/Snape/Chapt35Disc/Dumbledore/Dumbledore&Sirius(at length)/Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185042 Potioncat wrote in : << I wonder what the Malfoys' opinion of Snape is now that it's all over? >> Now that it's all over, Snape is a dead hero, so it's useful to reminisce publicly about having been friends with him, so it doesn't matter what their secret real opinion is. Draco's secret real opinion might be that Snape saved his life and his soul, which could lead to gratitude or resentment. Zara wrote in : << I think he did betray his old friends, in the first war. We are not given any specific instances, >> I think we were. There is the famous list in GoF of Slythies with whom student Snape hung out: "Rosier and Wilkes ? they were both killed by Aurors the year before Voldemort fell. The Lestranges ? they're a married couple ? they're in Azkaban. Avery ? from what I've heard he wormed his way out of trouble by saying he'd been acting under the Imperius curse". I have always assumed that Aurors found Rosier and Wilkes (or were waiting for them when they arrived to commit crimes) because Dumbledore passed on tips from his new spy, Secret Sevvie. In addition, IIRC Karkaroff is the only person whom adult Snape called by his first name. It seemed to me that Snape still felt a remnant of friendship for Karkaroff despite Karkaroff being inconvenient and a coward. I don't recall how Karkaroff was convicted - was it the result of another Spy Snape tip? Sherry discussed Chapter 34 in : << 8. Were you surprised at the identity of any of the people who came to Harry through the Resurrection Stone? >> I was not surprised that Lupin had finally escaped from Tonks and rejoined the people he actually wanted to be with, but I did wonder how this works out for Tonks. Rowling would not be proposing that Tonks spend her afterlife alone and lonely. << 10. When Harry is saying that he didn't want them to die, why was he mostly addressing Lupin? >> Like everyone said, Harry's reason is that Lupin is the most recent death, therefore freshest on his mind. Rowling's reason is that she needed to tell the readers that it was okay for Remus to die and leave his son an orphan despite the rant she had previously put into Harry's mouth about Remus's first duty being to stay with his son, not help hunt for Horcruxes. Carol wrote in : << Now all I see is the unreliable narrator: "Neither would live; neither could survive." (Wrong!) >> Wrong, but live/survive is another reference to the Prophecy: neither can live while the other survives. Which is another reminder to me that I STILL don't know what the Prophecy meant by that. If it had been neither can DIE while the other survives, that would be a reference to this very event. Montavilla47 wrote in : << What bugged me most was the remark about giving Ron the Prefect position because Harry would be too busy... doing what, exactly? But it wasn't that. It was that, when Harry's beloved Godfather has just died, whether or not he got to wear a shiny badge seemed like the most irrelevant thing in the world. >> Surely that was for the readers, who had begun the book by watching Harry *not* be chosen Prefect, and Rowling wanted to assure the *readers* that DD still thought Harry was the greatest thing since ... what do wizards say instead of 'since sliced bread'? I was so happy that Ron became prefect! I had been sure it would either be Harry, because everything happens to Harry, or else Neville, to force him to develop leadership. I wish DD's purpose (and as long as he was speaking about it, I wish he had said so) was Ron needed the status more than Harry, as Harry already had status as Quidditch star and Triwizard Champion. Alla wrote in : << If Dumbledore had the little understanding of psychology of the people he leads would have known that inaction is the absolutely worst thing that can be done to Sirius, the worst blow to his psyche. Inaction in the house where he had a bad memories feels even worst to me. >> I think Dumbledore knew all that and did it deliberately. He admitted doing it (but not that it was deliberate) in the DD-tells-all at the end of OoP. I'm breaking DD's statement into three pieces to call attention to the middle one: "It is my fault that Sirius died," said Dumbledore clearly. "Or should I say, almost entirely my fault ? I will not be so arrogant as to claim responsibility for the whole." "Sirius was a brave, clever and energetic man, and such men are not usually content to sit at home in hiding while they believe others to be in danger." "Nevertheless, you should never have believed for an instant that there was any necessity for you to go to the Department of Mysteries tonight. If I had been open with you, Harry, as I should have been, [or allowed Sirius to tell you without Molly stopping him] you would have known a long time ago that Voldemort might try and lure you to the Department of Mysteries, and you would never have been tricked into going there tonight. And Sirius would not have had to come after you. That blame lies with me, and with me alone." >From a later part of that conversation:"He had no love for Kreacher, because Kreacher was a living reminder of the home Sirius had hated." Back in the day, the list thoroughly discussed DD's motive for wanting Sirius to be killed before Harry's eyes. Some thought it was as simple as getting rid of Sirius's recklessness which might endanger Harry or getting rid of Sirius's love for Harry which might interfere with DD's plans to use Harry in ways not so good for Harry. Some thought it was that DD feared that Harry's grief for his parents and anger at their murder was not fresh enough, so he used Sirius's death to refresh Harry's desire for revenge on Voldemort. I prefer the theory that DD knew that a heart broken by bereavement would protect Harry from being possessed by Voldemort "because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests." La Gatta Lucianese suggested that Sirius had consented to this plan, and that was why he got stressed out waiting to die (rather than from being caged upm with his bad memories). She suggested that everyone who joined the Order consented to be killed and/or to kill a comrade if needed by DD's plans, and that that is what Lupin meant by saying "There are dangers involved of which you can have no idea, any of you". Carol wrote in : << Sirius Black chose to return to England. He could have stayed free and safe among the tropical birds. But once he chose to return and it became known that he was in England, it was risky to leave the house because Wormtail had described his Animagus form to Voldemort and the DEs. (big snip) not sure what DD should have done differently regarding Sirius Black, whom he was trying to keep safe >> He could have sent Sirius out, maybe even on missions, or at least to get some exercise, in a *different* disguise. Other Order members who were not Animagi or Metamorphamagi used disguises; for example, McGonagall returned from some sort of mission disguised as an old Muggle woman. They were able to disguise Harry as a Weasley for Bill and Fleur's wedding, so maybe they could have disguised Padfoot as some other dog. DD could have sent Sirius to a foreign country to recruit foreign wizards to help against Voldemort, which DD had asked Charlie in Romania to spend his days off doing. Maybe he could have thought up some meaningful paperwork assignment that Sirius could do in the house, reading the Muggle papers to track Voldemort's latest crimes, going through old books to find forgotten spells to use against Voldemort, that kind of stuff. If someone invented a detector to show whether a person is under the Imperius Curse, that would be helpful for the Light Side. (Like Alla wrote in : << How about writing something? How about strategy conversations? Letters campaign to newspapers to clear Dumbledore and Harry? >>. Maybe DD didn't want their names cleared and the truth out, as it was Hermione, not DD, who eventually got the truth published via The Quibbler.) Or he could have used his emotional power over Sirius to force Sirius to go back to the tropical birds and (as the only use the Order had for him was to command Kreacher not to betray them to Narcissa) take Kreacher with him. Pippin wrote in : << we do know that afterward, everyone, including Molly who hadn't known Sirius in the old days, felt he couldn't be trusted not to take unnecessary risks. >> I don't think Molly has a right to have an opinion. I think she forfeited it by her own idiotic reckless behavior. When seeing Harry off on the Hogwarts Express, Padfoot "reared on to its hind legs and placed its front paws on Harry's shoulders", which various large dogs have done to me when they wanted to slobber on me, but Molly "hiss[ed] 'For heaven's sake, act more like a dog, Sirius!'" She didn't even call him Padfoot! Even without using a name, since when does telling a dog to act more like a dog soothe enemy suspicions? What is the evidence that the bad guys knew about Padfoot (from Wormtail) before Molly gave the name away in front of most of wizarding Britain's teen-agers? I think who was *really* after Sirius was the Ministry, and LV and the Death Eaters were content to send Lucius to tell Fudge about Sirius's dog form and then wait for the Ministry to dispose of him, rather than hunting him themselves, but 'bad guys' covers both. I know that logic indicates that LV already knew about Sirius's dog form from Wormtail -- it seems to me unlikely that Peter told LV: "Call me Wormtail", in which case LV Legilimensed the whole thing, all four Marauders, their nicknames and animal forms, from him back in the first war. But the actual events of the story of the story suggest that LV had some kind of brain fart and never told anyone that the bloke whom they were hunting could turn into a dog, until Draco or one of his colleagues heard Molly on Platform 9 3/4 and then Draco told Lucius and it may have been Lucius's own independent idea to tell Fudge to tell his Aurors. For that matter, what is the evidence that anyone told the Aurors? Pippin wrote in : << I came to think that Dumbledore's commitments not to lie in PS/SS and to tell Harry everything in OOP, which I once defended, had been made as emptily and cynically as Harry's promises to Griphook in DH. But when I actually reread the final chapters of OOP, I felt differently. To my surprise, it read as if Dumbledore really was prepared to tell Harry everything, mentioning the scar and saying that Harry wasn't nearly as angry with him as he should be. Darn right! But the topic turns to Sirius and Kreacher, and when it comes back to Harry again, Dumbledore seems to have reached a decision that he's only going to speak about the prophecy for now. In the light of the revelations in DH, trying to get Harry to understand about Sirius's flaws feels less like an intrusion and more like a test -- if Harry was not ready to deal with the truth about Sirius, how could he be expected to deal with the truth about himself? >> But DD didn't say 'I am going to tell you everything' until AFTER Harry had repeatedly shouted at DD for saying unfeeling things about Sirius's death. From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 29 22:20:46 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 22:20:46 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185043 > > Alla: > > I absolutely think that the member of the gang of killers and > > torturers needs to hear you disgust me, definitely. However, asking > > him [Snape] to serve Dumbledore in exchange for the protection of > > those whom Dumbledore **already** supposed to protect? > > Pippin: > That's not quite the situation. Harry would have been protected > anyway, but James and Lily were not civilians. They were Order > members, putting themselves in harm's way to protect others. Snape, > whether he realized it or not, was asking Dumbledore to take Lily out > of the fight. Dumbledore was demanding that Snape accept a package > deal: he'll take Lily out of the fight only if Snape will agree that > James and Harry also should be protected. Montavilla47: That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, unless Dumbledore really thought that the prophecy was nonsense. If Harry or Neville had the possiblity of being the one who would vanquish Voldemort, then it only made sense to protect them, even before Snape showed up with his warning. The only information that Snape really brought to Dumbledore was that Voldemort had actually heard about the prophecy and had decided on an interpretation. And Snape doesn't have any say over whether or not James and Harry are protected by Dumbledore. Dumbledore doesn't need his permission to do that. Pippin: > Dumbledore was serving notice that Snape wouldn't be allowed to use > the Order as he'd hoped to use Voldemort -- to dispose of Lily's > family so he could have her to himself. Montavilla47: I find that quite unfair. There is absolutely no indication that Snape intended to have Lily "to himself." We don't, of course, know exactly when Snape heard the prophecy, so it's impossible to say that he didn't know it would apply to Lily and Jame's son. But it's highly unlikely that he would, since he was no longer in any sort of association with Lily and James. How would he even know she was expecting a child, much less the gender of the child or when it was to be born? So, he could not have had that in mind when he delivered the prophecy (the part he had heard) to Voldemort. When Snape does realize that Voldemort is applying the prophecy to Lily's child--his immediate and overwhelming reaction is alarm for Lily's safety. Not how to use the situation in order to free her up from her inconvenient family. What Dumbledore is faulting Snape for isn't that Snape is trying to manipulate the situation. He's finding fault because Snape is indifferent to James and Harry--because Snape lacks the greatness of heart to care about a person he hates and one he doesn't know. Pippin: > But that meant DD would lose two fighters -- was it wrong for him to > ask what Snape could offer in return? Montavilla47: Really, all I can say to that is that if Dumbledore was thinking only about the number of his fighters, then he has no business faulting Snape for his indifference to James and Harry. I simply think that Dumbledore was taking advantage of the situation to gain himself a valuable spy. It was, after all, a war going on. I don't really blame Dumbledore for taking advantage of Snape here. And, as someone who is unabashedly pro-Snape, it's always nice to be reminded that, as big of a jerk as Snape could be, Dumbledore was a much bigger one. From k12listmomma at comcast.net Sun Nov 30 16:15:59 2008 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:15:59 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veterans Suffering, was Re: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185044 >> Potioncat: >> I can understand the other deaths in the series, even if I don't like >> them, but I don't think killing off Harry would have been fitting >> ending for the series. Here's a JKR interview that explains her >> reasoning in keeping Harry alive. You can find the rest of her >> thoughts at the link. >> http://harryahistory.com/2008/10/on-harrys-survival.html >> >> JKR: In many ways it would have been a neater ending to kill him. > For sure, I knew that all along. felt that the books' overriding > message was that love is the most powerful force in this world. My model > with Harry really was war veterans, who have seen horrors and are asked > to go home and rebuild, and go back to ordinary life and care for a >> family, be a father - particularly be a father - [it is] a difficult >> job, in troubled times. >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185029 > Kamion's remark: > My model with > quote JKR: Harry really was war veterans, who have seen horrors and > are asked to go home and rebuild, and go back to ordinary life and > care for a family, be a father - particularly be a father - [it is] a > difficult. > > Nice Jo, when are you going to write THAT book? It could be very > interesting to read your version of that process, that hunderds of > fanwriters of variated plumage have touched in also so many > variations. > Or do you want us to believe that process has been covered by " 19 > Years later"? I don't know who she is trying to fool, but I don't buy > it. This whole veteranpart is an intervieuw JKR beter not had let go > public, because it is saying: " I wanted to make a painting all in > green." while presenting a painting in red with no green at all. Shelley now: Kamion, I fully agree with you, for two reasons. First, we see that after Sirius's death, and after Cedric's death, there is no counseling or personal help for Harry or Cho. They suffer and struggle alone. No grief counseling, no help at all. The Wizard don't seem to have a system to address when people are wounded spiritually and mentally and need healing. We see the hospital deal with all sorts of other injuries, but not the mental aspect. Then we are just supposed to believe that people who have suffered the trauma of war are just supposed to "magically adjust"- well, no, they don't, as evidenced by the very story she did write. The second reason I agree with you is that I have a husband who did fight a war and did suffer Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. While the early days were full of extreme jumpiness, irrational behavior, nightmares and blackouts, eventually those things settled down. It nearly killed our marriage when he was physically abusive to me and our child during that time. I had to separate from him for my personal safety. With counseling, help and the loving commitment of those around him, my husband healed. BUT, and this is a huge but, my husband is still got the marks of war. Loud, sudden sounds STILL bug him, and it's been 20 years since the 1st Persian Gulf War when Iraq invaded Kuwait. He still doesn't like fireworks- the remind him of bombs going off over Baghdad- pretty, but killing people nevertheless. And, we've never been camping, like we did before his war service. Plus, there is a nervous twitch is his one arm that wasn't there before he went to war. You are fully right that "19 years later", and "Happily ever after" do not cut it, they do not tell the story of Harry's rough readjustment. They do not tell the story of a Harry, touched by war but managing to survive anyway. I would have believed it if she had written something about a loud noise going off, and Harry startling a bit too much, and Ginny's soothing hand on his arm, and him taking a deep breath, saying "I'm all right, dear, I'm all right", indicating that truly YES, Harry had scars from the war, and would always have. That would be a story painted in green, but I agree, that as she's written it, there is no green in it at all. And even if the first books in this series were written at a time when war was a long time off for the Brits, this last book was written at a time when soldiers (her own people) were dying in Iraq. Surely she could take a look at real-time veterans and than not all of their stories are "happily ever after"? There is real time information about the suicide rate being higher, that statistics bear out the divorce rate, alcohol abuse rate is higher and all sorts of other data about PTSS in vets, that she could have written just a touch of that into her epilogue? No, it's clear that she didn't need to research that at all, because she had this fairy tale epilogue written many years ago, and she wasn't going to change her fantasy Harry who flies through all unscathed. It's one thing that I hated about the epilogue. Someone should have been standing there, with kids, but with very real scars that they suffered in that battle of Hogwarts- a limp, a facial scar, a part of them missing. Because that's the real aftermath of war- not the Rowling fantasy of "they either die, or they live", but that people live with huge sacrifices that affect the rest of their lives. Harry lived with scar on his forehead from his first encounter, but where are his scars from the last one? Even if Harry didn't have one, someone in the crowd from that war should have- such as a burn mark on Draco from the Fiendfire in the RoR, something on someone that indicated that people were still living with the aftermath of that war in some small, but significant, tangible way. From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Sun Nov 30 16:46:21 2008 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:46:21 -0000 Subject: Veterans Suffering, was Re: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185045 Shelley: *(snipping)* > You are fully right that "19 years later", and "Happily ever after" > do not cut it, they do not tell the story of Harry's rough > readjustment. They do not tell the story of a Harry, touched by war > but managing to survive anyway. I would have believed it if she had > written something about a loud noise going off, and Harry startling a > bit too much, and Ginny's soothing hand on his arm, and him taking a > deep breath, saying "I'm all right, dear, I'm all right", indicating > that truly YES, Harry had scars from the war, and would always have. > That would be a story painted in green, but I agree, that as > she's written it, there is no green in it at all. *(and snipping the rest)* Ceridwen: Ginny, Ron and Hermione, together with Harry our core group "Nineteen Years Later," all fought in the war, too. They didn't face Voldy, but they faced other DEs as intent on killing them as Voldy was on killing Harry. It might just as easily be Harry soothing Ginny's nerves, or Ron and Hermione reassuring each other. With St. Mungo's level of physical care, there would have been very few visible scars - only the ones from Dark Magic would remain. Draco or Goyle should have burns somewhere, perhaps Ron, Harry and Hermione, too. The deepest scars, though, given the children killed, would be the ones seen reflected in haunted eyes as parents see their children off and perhaps think of that day when classmates or siblings were killed. Hogwarts isn't safe if someone really wants in there. They've lived that. Since kids don't tell their parents everything, quite a few of these soul-scarred people might wonder what sorts of shenanigans are going on that they don't know about. Ceridwen. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Nov 30 17:45:04 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:45:04 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185046 Kamion: > My model with > quote JKR: Harry really was war veterans, who have seen horrors and > are asked to go home and rebuild, and go back to ordinary life and > care for a family, be a father - particularly be a father - [it is] a > difficult. > > Nice Jo, when are you going to write THAT book? It could be very > interesting to read your version of that process, that hunderds of > fanwriters of variated plumage have touched in also so many > variations. Pippin: She *did* write that book. That's what the Marauder generation is all about. It's part of the reason they had to die, IMO -- to show that they had to live with the scars of war to the end. What JKR is talking about, IMO, is the decision Harry made at King's Cross, to live on knowing that by the time he defeated Voldemort (and he couldn't know then how long that would take) he might be as damaged as Sirius, Lupin or Snape. Of the three, only Lupin recovered something like his former happiness -- and he didn't get to enjoy it for long. Nineteen years later, JKR shows us a Harry who is reasonably happy with his life, but if we want to know how he got there, we have to look at Pettigrew, Snape and Sirius, each of whom remained frozen in a different stage of recovery: denial, bargaining or anger. Only Lupin got to move on to acceptance from despair. One of the things JKR does with her world is remind us that we'd be leaving more than decent dental care behind if we had to live in the pseudo-medieval society so beloved of heroic fantasy sagas. There simply is no mental health counseling as we know it in the WW. They don't even know that they need it. In saying that Merope lacked courage, Dumbledore echoed the common thinking of a century ago, when people who broke down after traumatic events were accused of cowardice or bad faith. Sirius and Snape make just those accusations to each other. Pippin From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Nov 30 17:57:26 2008 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 30 Nov 2008 17:57:26 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 11/30/2008, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1228067846.10.23826.m54@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 185047 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday November 30, 2008 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2008 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Nov 30 18:19:04 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:19:04 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185048 > Montavilla47: > That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, unless Dumbledore really > thought that the prophecy was nonsense. If Harry or Neville had > the possiblity of being the one who would vanquish Voldemort, then > it only made sense to protect them, even before Snape showed up > with his warning. Pippin: I do think Dumbledore thought the prophecy was nonsense. But even if he didn't,"those who have thrice defied him" is so vague as to be meaningless. It could apply to any wizard who hated LV, and as he himself said, there were many of them. Unless Dumbledore had the resources to put every wizarding baby born towards the end of July under the secret keeper spell, he had to wait on Voldemort's decision. Protecting only some of the children would be tantamount to painting a bullseye on them. > > Pippin: > > Dumbledore was serving notice that Snape wouldn't be allowed to use the Order as he'd hoped to use Voldemort -- to dispose of Lily's family so he could have her to himself. > > Montavilla47: > I find that quite unfair. There is absolutely no indication that > Snape intended to have Lily "to himself." We don't, of course, > know exactly when Snape heard the prophecy, so it's impossible > to say that he didn't know it would apply to Lily and Jame's son. Pippin: Snape turned to Dumbledore only because he feared that Voldemort would not keep his word, not because he no longer found the bargain itself acceptable. Snape may have made his request of Voldemort before or after he delivered the prophecy, probably before, since Hagrid says that no one understood why Voldemort had left James and Lily alone for so long. It didn't occur to me that Snape might have asked Voldemort to spare Lily even before she'd got married, but that doesn't change anything. My point is that he had asked Voldemort to spare Lily knowing that those whom she loved were also at risk. His morality was the same as Aragog's. > Pippin: > > But that meant DD would lose two fighters -- was it wrong for him to ask what Snape could offer in return? > > Montavilla47: > Really, all I can say to that is that if Dumbledore was thinking > only about the number of his fighters, then he has no business > faulting Snape for his indifference to James and Harry. Pippin: The number of his fighters is the number of innocent lives that Dumbledore can protect -- what on earth is wrong with Dumbledore thinking about that? Montavilla: > And, as someone who is unabashedly pro-Snape, it's always > nice to be reminded that, as big of a jerk as Snape could be, > Dumbledore was a much bigger one. Pippin: I suppose so. As Dumbledore says, his mistakes are correspondingly huger. Almost all of JKR's heroic characters have their disappointing aspects. That's what makes them seem so real, and makes them so much fun to discuss. We don't have these kinds of debates about Neville and Luna. Pippin From k12listmomma at comcast.net Sun Nov 30 19:07:29 2008 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:07:29 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veterans Suffering, was Re: CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again. References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185049 > Ceridwen: > Ginny, Ron and Hermione, together with Harry our core group "Nineteen > Years Later," all fought in the war, too. They didn't face Voldy, but > they faced other DEs as intent on killing them as Voldy was on killing > Harry. It might just as easily be Harry soothing Ginny's nerves, or > Ron and Hermione reassuring each other. > > With St. Mungo's level of physical care, there would have been very > few visible scars - only the ones from Dark Magic would remain. Shelley now: But that's only true for the ones that were treated, for the people who didn't want to be scarred. Dumbledore still had his scar, didn't he? Mad Eye Moody didn't seem bothered to fix his face- I almost took it that he wore his scars as a badge of honor, not that they weren't fixable because they had been done by Dark Magic. And Fred, I'm not sure he would have replaced his ear, even if the magic was possible. Not everyone in the wizarding world felt the need to remove every scar. > Draco or Goyle should have burns somewhere, perhaps Ron, Harry and > Hermione, > too. The deepest scars, though, given the children killed, would be > the ones seen reflected in haunted eyes as parents see their children > off and perhaps think of that day when classmates or siblings were > killed. Shelley: I could see if a twing of a memory occured- Harry seeing a child and thinking he looked (or acted) a lot like the young Colin Creevy, or another one that was killed, and feeling that momentary guilt or saddness of regret. It's what that scene lacks- a momentary rememberance of one lost. > Hogwarts isn't safe if someone really wants in there. > They've lived that. Since kids don't tell their parents everything, > quite a few of these soul-scarred people might wonder what sorts of > shenanigans are going on that they don't know about. > > Ceridwen. Shelley: This, I have debated on. Was it really that Hogwarts was unsafe, or that the whole Wizarding World was unsafe while Voldemort was alive? Because people were killed everywhere- Diagon Alley was practically cleared out while people feared the worst- so the terror wasn't limited to the school grounds. Voldemort travelled far and wide to kill people whom he wanted information from. The battle only came to the school grounds because 1) that's where the Diadim was (the reason Voldemort stationed Death Eaters there) and 2) that's where Harry was. In normal times, without Harry and Voldemort in the picture, the main harm that I could see would be from fellow student's spells going astray, or from not using proper care when in the Care of Magical Creatures class or the Herbology class (such as not watching your backside from the Venomous Tentacula when it was teething!) In normal times, I really don't think Hogwarts was any "safer", or "less safe" than anywhere else in the wizarding world, given that any magical person could blow themselves up with magic at any time, and that magic itself could be dangerous if used improperly. So, I don't think any of these parents should worry, although they would, given what they went through, but I think most would realize that the world was now a much safer place overall than when they were in school. Kind of like being in London after WW2- during the war, there were bombing raids, and it wasn't safe in the city. Kids were shipped to the country side for protection. After the war ended, 19 years later, did parents worry about their kids attending schools and playing in the streets? No, for the war was long gone. I think Hogwarts would be like that- rebuilt, polished, and most of the old battle scars removed with new contruction. I'm assuming by then, except for the memories of the parents, Hogwarts would be a perfectly safe place again. The tricks that kids can play on one another are quite harmless compared to the antics of Death Eaters. I think any parent, any reasonable parent, realizes that there are always shenanigans going on that kids don't tell about- and part of that is just raising your child right so that they don't do stupid stuff, and part realizing that it's out of our control most of what the kids do, as they have to make their own path in life, and that you can't control everything. I think the few paranoid parents who were still living in the past wouldn't send their kids to Hogwarts at all, but by 19 years later, that move might seem very extreme and truly paranoid and out of place. I think most parents might fondly remember the years before the war, when they were yet innocent and untouched, looking forward to learning magic, and remembering the fun they had before Voldemort terror. At least, that would be the type of parent I would try to be, sending a child to Hogwarts in the year that Harry did his. I might be battle-scarred, but I would be happy knowing that my kids wouldn't be. From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 30 19:57:11 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:57:11 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185050 > > Montavilla47: > > That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, unless Dumbledore really > > thought that the prophecy was nonsense. If Harry or Neville had > > the possiblity of being the one who would vanquish Voldemort, then > > it only made sense to protect them, even before Snape showed up > > with his warning. > > Pippin: > I do think Dumbledore thought the prophecy was nonsense. But even if > he didn't,"those who have thrice defied him" is so vague as to be > meaningless. It could apply to any wizard who hated LV, and as he > himself said, there were many of them. Unless Dumbledore had the > resources to put every wizarding baby born towards the end of July > under the secret keeper spell, he had to wait on Voldemort's decision. > Protecting only some of the children would be tantamount to painting a > bullseye on them. Montavilla47: I agree that the "thrice defied him" phrase is vague. I've argued that many times in the past (although, probably not here as much) to people who think Snape was well aware that the prophecy targeted the Potters. The first part of the prophecy doesn't even specify that the child is still unborn (the second half does that). So, it could have applied to *anyone* born in July who had thrice defied Voldemort. Heck, that might be someone born to the kids he grew up in the orphanage for all anyone knew at that point. But Dumbledore had heard the whole prophecy and knew that the possible vanquishers was more limited. Maybe he really did think the prophecy was nonsense, but his choice to hire Trelawney (for a course he considered absurd) argues against that idea. If the prophecy was nonsense, then there was no need to safeguard the prophetess. > > Pippin: > > > Dumbledore was serving notice that Snape wouldn't be allowed to > use the Order as he'd hoped to use Voldemort -- to dispose of Lily's > family so he could have her to himself. > > > > Montavilla47: > > I find that quite unfair. There is absolutely no indication that > > Snape intended to have Lily "to himself." We don't, of course, > > know exactly when Snape heard the prophecy, so it's impossible > > to say that he didn't know it would apply to Lily and Jame's son. > > Pippin: > Snape turned to Dumbledore only because he feared that Voldemort > would not keep his word, not because he no longer found the bargain > itself acceptable. Montavilla47: Agreed. But that doesn't mean that Snape wanted Lily "for himself." He wanted her alive. Period. The matter of whether or not James and Harry survived was a matter of indifference to him. Pippin: > Snape may have made his request of Voldemort before > or after he delivered the prophecy, probably before, since Hagrid says > that no one understood why Voldemort had left James and Lily alone for > so long. Montavilla47: I don't recall Hagrid saying that. But there are some extra-canonical statements from JKR about Voldemort trying to recruit both James and Lily. And, that Lily was a member of the order until she found out that she was pregnant, at which point she stopped active duty. (I can't quite recall, but JKR may have even said that Lily and James went into hiding even before Harry was born.) So, take that for what it's worth. It's not canon, but it does show a bit of what JKR *intended.* But I suppose it's *possible* that Snape tried to make some kind of bargain with Voldemort (delivering the prophecy for LV sparing Lily), although he'd be more likely to need to use the prophecy to deflect punishment for failing to get the D.A.D.A. job. I have no idea why Voldemort would even agree to spare anyone for his Death Eater, unless he was very happy with Snape for bringing the prophecy. The way he treats the agreement, it sounds more like a "gracious" boon to a favored minion than anything else. Perhaps Snape had done something pre-Prophecy to warrant such a request. But I kind of doubt it. And maybe Voldemort allowed his minions to create a hands-off list, but that doesn't seem likely, either. Even if Snape made that request earlier, there's something that set him off recently, something that convinced him that Voldemort wasn't going to honor the request. Which would most likely have been Voldemort's targeting of the Potter family. Pippin: >It didn't occur to me that Snape might have asked Voldemort > to spare Lily even before she'd got married, but that doesn't change > anything. My point is that he had asked Voldemort to spare Lily > knowing that those whom she loved were also at risk. His morality was > the same as Aragog's. Montavilla47: Right. Which is what disgusts Dumbledore--not that Snape is trying to manipulate Dumbledore into killing off James and Harry (or allowing them to be killed) so that he can have Lily all to himself. Because Snape isn't trying to do that at all. Snape isn't trying to manipulate anything in that scene. He's in a blind panic. And that panic isn't about trying to get Lily to himself. Lily hasn't been in a relationship with him for several years. You don't get dumped by someone and suddenly panic about it five years later. What's put him in a panic is that Lily has been threatened. Which is why I doubt that Snape made any such request of Voldemort very long before we see him. Because if he had thought Lily was really being threatened earlier, he would have been panicking earlier. > > Pippin: > > > But that meant DD would lose two fighters -- was it wrong for him > to ask what Snape could offer in return? > > > > Montavilla47: > > Really, all I can say to that is that if Dumbledore was thinking > > only about the number of his fighters, then he has no business > > faulting Snape for his indifference to James and Harry. > > Pippin: > The number of his fighters is the number of innocent lives that > Dumbledore can protect -- what on earth is wrong with Dumbledore > thinking about that? Montavilla47: Because, if he's strictly thinking about numbers, he's not taking any care for those of this soldiers who are being specifically targeted. And the infant child that they have. Who would be one of those innocent lives. From wildirishrose at fiber.net Sun Nov 30 23:40:47 2008 From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:40:47 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Snape parallels again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 185051 Pippin: > That's not quite the situation. Harry would have been protected > anyway, but James and Lily were not civilians. They were Order > members, putting themselves in harm's way to protect others. Snape, > whether he realized it or not, was asking Dumbledore to take Lily out > of the fight. Dumbledore was demanding that Snape accept a package > deal: he'll take Lily out of the fight only if Snape will agree that > James and Harry also should be protected. > > Dumbledore was serving notice that Snape wouldn't be allowed to use > the Order as he'd hoped to use Voldemort -- to dispose of Lily's > family so he could have her to himself. Marianne: What if the package deal blew up in everybody's face. Lily was taken out of harms way, and for some reason or another, and Snape has nothing to do with it, Harry and James end up dead anyway. Snape thinks he'll have Lily to himself. I don't think it would be that easy. If Snape thinks that he'll have her to himself he's got another thing coming to him. Lily knows about Snape's past, associating with DE and the dark arts. Perhaps she thinks that Snape hasn't changed. Lily loves her husband and son too much to ever throw herself into Snape's arms. And if Lily found out that Snape, in the beginning, asked to keep her out of harm's way and sacrifice James and Harry she'd loathe him even more forever. Short of Snape confunding or slipping a love potion to Lily, I doubt he'll ever get Lily back. Marianne The fall won't kill you The landing will