CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale

[littleleahstill]

No: HPFGUIDX 184818

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ... 
> wrote:
> Discussion Questions:
> 
> 1.  Why do you think that JKR (or the narrator) refers to Snape
> as "the Prince" here and in "The Flight of the Prince" in HBP?

Leah: I agree with the idea that the Prince is Harry's positive link 
to Snape. In HBP, Harry tries to find out who the Prince is, finds 
out and then'loses' him almost simultaneously, and now gets him 
back.  

> 
> 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of 
[their]
> dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the
> Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you
> think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead?

Leah: I was thinking more of this as giving them an opportunity to 
go and collect the bodies from the field of battle,as we see Oliver 
and Neville carrying in Colin, rather than a burial or cremation, a 
bit like a truce to get bodies from No Man's Land in WW1.  

> 
> 3.  Lupin and Tonks lie "pale and still and peaceful-looking,
> apparently asleep beneath the dark, enchanted ceiling." This
> description seems to echo that of the dead Dumbledore in HBP--
> "Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his 
arms
> and legs, he might have been sleeping"—and that of his peacefully
> sleeping portrait. What do you think JKR is saying about death
> through these descriptions? Do they seem to refer to death in 
general
> or only to these particular deaths?

Leah: It is slightly different from the lights going out in Dobby's 
eyes, or something leaving Snape's eyes, but Harry is looking at the 
latter deaths close up as they happen; this is a description of 
bodies laid out to rest.  I don't think there's anything more 
significant than a suggestion of being at peace.  JKR thinks 
accepting death is a good thing after all.   

> 
> 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway
> leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think
> the password changed and who or what changed it?

Leah: I always thought it was Snape's password, changed when he 
became 
headmaster. I would think a new headmaster would be expected to 
change to a new password.  It signifies Snape's loyalty to 
Dumbledore, and he can always tell the Death Eaters that he uses it 
to gloat over his killing.  Did he perhaps envisage Harry needing to 
get to the office, and think of a word that was likely to come to 
Harry's mind when he stood outside the office?  If so, perhaps he 
only changed the password when he heard that Harry was at Hogwarts.  

> 
> 5. Little Severus is described as "stringy," the same word that the
> narrator uses to describe both the teenage Severus and Theodore 
Nott
> in OoP. Did you think of Theo when you read the description of 
little
> Severus, and, if so, what connection, if any, did you see between 
the
> two Slytherin boys?

Leah: I don't know if I thought of it on first reading, but it did 
occur 
to me later.  They both seem to have been isolated boys.  Severus 
became a Death Eater and Theodore didn't, although his father was 
one.  Perhaps Theodore was a stronger character as a teenager, 
perhaps he was put off by his father, or perhaps the difference is 
due to having Snape rather than Slughorn as Head of House.  I would 
have liked to know more about Theodore.
> 
> 6. What do you make of the description of Severus as "batlike" in 
his
> oversized coat? Why does JKR continually connect Snape with bats?

Leah: He's a bat animagus??? The bat description is part of the set 
up of sinister Death Eater Snape, I think, and this defuses that 
image.

> 
> 7. Since Lily has no way of knowing about prejudice against Muggle-
> borns in the WW, why do you think she's worried that being a 
Muggle-
> born might "make a difference"? Given Severus's remark that Lily 
can
> do "loads" of magic, might the two children be talking about 
magical
> ability rather than prejudice against Muggle-borns? If not, why 
would
> he make that remark in that context?

Leah: Severus tells Lily that someone will come to her house to 
explain 
about Hogwarts because she's Muggleborn, so he's presumably 
explained about purebloods and halfbloods and Muggleborns.  Perhaps 
Lily picked up some hesitation from him, or if he described 
purebloods as something like 'their families have been wizards 
forever', she might well be concerned about fitting in.  I  like the 
idea that she's worried about being less magical, but I think 
Severus' slight hesitation means that he at least is thinking about 
prejudice.  Perhaps he believes that the strength of Lily's magic 
will help her ovecome prejudice.  

> 
> 8. Severus tells Lily that only wizards who "do really bad stuff" 
are
> sent to Azkaban. What does this remark reveal about his sense of 
good
> and evil and age nine or ten?

Leah: He has a touching faith in the justice system of the Wizarding 
World!  To answer the question, it shows that he has a sense of good 
and evil, and that evil should be punished, therefore 
differentiating him from Voldemort. 


> 
> 9. Severus is obviously lying when he denies dropping the tree 
branch
> on Petunia, but neither his words nor his "scared and defiant"
> expression make clear whether the magic is accidental or 
deliberate.
> Which do you think it is and why? Why doesn't something similar
> happen to James and Sirius in SWM where Severus is also wandless?

Leah: I think he dislikes and is angry with Petunia, but that this 
is 
accidental magic, in the same way that Harry dislikes and is angry 
with Aunt Marge, but doesn't mean to inflate her.  We're shown or 
hear of several examples of accidental magic by children, and this 
just read like another example.  I think if JKR had meant it to be 
deliberate she would have used language to make it appear more non-
accidental than it does.  Accidental magic seems to be unfocused 
magic, when the child's emotions take over, and allow the child's 
magic to flow freely.  Harry isn't, for example. thinking of using 
magic on Marge, he is just overwhelmed by anger.  In SWM, Severus 
may be angry and humiliated, but he is definitely in control of his 
magic, thinking of using it on James and Sirius, and doing so when 
he gets a chance, so I think he  is too focused for wandless magic 
to occur.   

> 
> 10. Why does Petunia call Lily a "freak" (the same word that she 
uses
> in SS/PS some twenty years later)? What justification, if any, do 
you
> see for her view that sending "weirdos" like Lily and Severus to
> Hogwarts will protect the "normal people"? Do you see any 
connection
> with the Statute of Secrecy?

Leah: If Petunia can't have magic, she wants to believe that she 
wouldn't 
want it anyway, that it's a curse not a blessing.  I suppose there 
is a sort of reversal of the Statute of Secrecy, which is meant to 
protect witches and wizards against Muggles, while Petunia sees 
Hogwarts as protecting Muggles from magic.  


> 
> 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier
> onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)?

Leah: Do we know that Muggle parents can't get through?  Do we see 
Hermione on the platform at all, on occasions when she's not arrived 
with the Weasleys? (Sorry, haven't got the books available).

> 
> 12. James's words, "Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd 
leave,
> wouldn't you?" mirror Draco's words about Hufflepuff in SS/PS. What
> do you think that JKR is saying here about James and Draco or House
> prejudice in general? And what's your reaction to James's imaginary
> Sword of Gryffindor, raised in defense of chivalry?

Leah: The Slytherin comment is, I think, meant to highlight what 
Dumbledore meant when he cryptically said in PS/SS that the 
relationship between James and Severus was like that of Harry and 
Draco, ie James = Draco.  The imaginary sword, at which Severus made 
a derisory sound:- I thought there was a little bit of the English 
class 
system there, James as the declamatory public schoolboy and working 
class Severus thinking "What a berk". (Later, he gets much more 
dramatic himself, of course). On a second reading, I thought there 
was some irony intended there, as it was 'Snivellus' who would one 
day bring the sword to James' more worthy son.  Generally, the whole 
passage seemed to be saying that house prejudice and possibly the 
house system was a Bad Thing, so it was disappointing to see it 
recur in the Epilogue. 
> 
> 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya,
> Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think so?

Leah: If it's meant to be either James or Sirius, I would say 
Sirius, as he invented the name, and uses it again in SWM.  However, 
they were described as being in a group of 'rowdy boys', so it 
doesn't have to be either of them, it could be anyone of the group, 
and perhaps shows Severus becoming an accepted target.  
> 
> 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting
> Severus's back? Why include that detail?

Leah: It suggests the beginning of the friendship between Lucius and 
Snape which we seen hinted at in other books.  It shows Snape 
getting some acceptance in Slytherin, and perhaps hints at one of 
the reasons he may have become a Death Eater. 

> 
> 15. Lily's version of the so-called Prank—Severus "sneaking" around
> the Shrieking Shack and being saved by James from "whatever's down
> there" sounds a lot like Sirius's version in PoA except that 
everyone
> in the PoA scene knows what's down there. Do you think that Sirius 
is
> Lily's source? Why or why not? Why do you think she rejects
> Severus's "theory" (obviously, that Lupin is a werewolf)?

Leah: I'm certain Lily heard about it from one of the Marauders, and 
Sirius making sure Lily heard favourable reports about James sounds 
feasible.  Does she reject the theory?  My impression was that she 
didn't want to get drawn into that discussion rather than simply 
disagreeing. 



> 
> 16. Aside from not wanting to repeat a nine-page scene in detail, 
why
> do you think JKR condenses Snape's worst memory to a single
> paragraph? Is the tactic effective? (The relevant paragraph is on
> page 675 of the Scholastic edition and page 542 of the Bloomsbury
> edition.)  Note especially the last line, "Distantly, he heard 
Snape
> shout at her in his humiliation and his fury, the unforgivable 
word:
> Mudblood."

Leah: It would have been pretty boring to repeat it again, so this 
worked quite well for me.  It is a well known scene, so most readers 
would be familiar with it.  Here, JKR is able to emphasise Severus' 
emotional state, which we guessed at in the original scene - and 
that might also be a sign of Harry's empathy with Snape growing 
through the memories.  What JKR writes here is not quite accurate - 
Severus doesn't originally shout the word Mudblood at Lily-he tells 
Jamea that he doesn't want help from a 'filthy little Mudblood'.  I 
don't know whether this version is simply a Flint or the emphasis 
has changed to make the reader more sympathetic to Snape - or 
perhaps it's how Harry remembers the scene.  



> 
> 17.  The adult Snape is marvelously articulate, often brilliantly
> sardonic and sometimes even poetic, yet the teenage Severus is 
often
> at a loss for words, and even the young adult Snape seems tongue-
tied
> in the hilltop scene with Dumbledore. What do you think happened in
> the twelve or so years between the hilltop and Harry's first year 
at
> Hogwarts to turn Snape into the snarky, sarcastic Potions master 
that
> we encounter in SS/PS?

Leah: I got the impression that once he got over his initial 
encounter with Lily, small Severus was quite articulate. He's 
obviously telling Lily a lot of details about the magical world and 
making it fascinating, and he's described as 'brimful of 
confidence'.  His 'brawny not brainy' comment on the Hogwarts 
Express is nicely alliterative and quite Snapish.  When we see 
Teenage Severus, he's obviously at a disadvantage in being a teenage 
boy with the girl he fancies, but we also don't see him in 'normal' 
circumstances.  Lupin says in POA that Dumbledore forebade Snape 
from talking about the Prank, so he's struggling to tell Lily 
without actually doing so.  In the 'Portrait' scene, he's clearly 
also under a lot of emotional strain, as he is the hilltop scene 
with Dumbledore,when he's scared and guilty and desperate.  So I 
think his years of teaching and housemastering restored the 
articulate Snape that was always there but got misplaced somewhat 
during adolescence.      



> 
> 18. What do you think Dumbledore means when he tells Snape, "If I
> know [Harry], he will have arranged matters so that when he does 
set
> out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort"?

Leah: I understood it simply to mean that Harry would have destroyed 
all the Horcruxes.  I assume this is based on the assumption that 
Voldemort would not protect Nagini until the other Horcruxes were 
destroyed,(quite an assumption) and that Harry will ensure Nagini's 
destruction before going to his death.

> 
> 19. We get only a few hints of what Harry is feeling as he 
witnesses
> these scenes, and yet he goes from hating Snape and wanting revenge
> against him to publicly defending him and ultimately naming his
> second son after him and Dumbledore. Aside from the shock of 
Snape's
> death, which scenes do you feel had the most impact on Harry's 
change
> of heart and why?

Leah: I don't see there as being any one scene that would 
particularly stand out.  The Lily track of memories would be 
important in helping Harry understand Snape, and giving Harry a 
personal connection with him, while the Dumbledore scenes would have 
been vital in explaining the truth about Snape's loyalties. Perhaps 
if any one scene did make more impact than others, it would be the 
casting of the doe patronus, which links the Lily and the loyalty 
tracks, and explains something that actually had happened to Harry 
and had true meaning for him.

> 
> 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter?
> Why did *Snape* choose them?

LeAH: Both JKR and Snape chose them for the reasons given above.  I 
think 
Snape also wanted Harry to 'look at' him and see the truth which he 
had previously insisted on hidig away.  I disagree with Alla that 
the memories were not chosen by Snape. These were chronological 
memories of significant events. Had Snape just been pouring out 
memories at random, Harry would have had scenes of Snape having 
dinner or discussing Quiddich with Malfoy etc. I think Snape had 
probably mentally set these memories aside in some way, which I 
assume a skilled Occlumens could do, perhaps intending for Harry to 
view them in a pensieve, so he did not have to do the sorting in his 
dying moments. 


> 
> 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What
> surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the end 
of
> the chapter the first time through?

Leah: I had Snape pegged as Dumbledore's man, so although it was 
good to 
get that confirmed, it was no great revelation.  I was disappointed 
initially that it was all about Lily, though subsequently I have 
come to quite like the way that worked dramatically.  I was 
surprised that SWM appeared to occur after the Prank; I think like a 
lot of people I assumed that the Prank would have been a wake-up 
call to James, but clearly not.  I was disappointed that Snape 
appeared to be so much PortraitDumbledore's yes man, though on 
reflection he was acting on such limited information that his 
options were limited.  I disliked Dumbledore, and I was very 
disappointed in what we saw of Lily, whom I had hoped to like, and 
didn't at all.



Thanks for undertaking that mammoth chapter, Carol and for the 
interesting questions.

Leah