CHAPDISC: DH33, The Prince's Tale

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 184862

Carol:

Guess I should respond to some of my own questions!
> 
> 1.  Why do you think that JKR (or the narrator) refers to Snape as
"the Prince" here and in "The Flight of the Prince" in HBP?

Carol:
I don't think there's one right answer to this question, but I find it
intriguing that "Flight of the Prince" (in which the HBP' identity is
revealed) follows Snape's "murder" of Dumbledore and "The Prince's
Tale" (which sounds like a fairytale title or something out of
Chaucer) follows Voldemort's murder of Snape. The parallelism or
mirroring is obviously deliberate. It's as if Harry has come to think
of Snape as "the Prince" (the nickname that he used for the HBP when
he thought of him as his friend and teahcer). It seems to indicate
full understanding and acceptance. True, the narrator still refers to
him as Snape, but it's as if he's no longer the hated professor--one
side of Snape viewed without understanding or compassion--but the
whole person, boy and man, who loved Harry's mother and called himself
the Half-Blood Prince and faced mortal peril to protect a boy he
didn't like.
> 
> 2. Voldemort gives the Hogwarts staff one hour to "dispose of
[their] dead with dignity" and treat the injured while he waits in the
Forbidden Forest. Assuming that he means what he says, how do you
think he expects them to "dispose of" the dead?

Carol:
Voldemort's "dispose of your dead with dignity," aside from being part
of the rules of medieval warfare that someone mentioned (he like to go
through the formalities ("We bow to one another, Harry" in the
graveyard) strikes me as a pretense of humanity (like the statements
he makes about admiring courage and being merciful) from someone who
has no idea, not the faintest, how it feels to lose a loved one. You
don't *dispose* of your dead with dignity, not if you have any choice
in the matter. You bury them with honor, you hold a funeral service,
and you mourn. I can't imagine what he thinks they would do in an
hour--magically dig a mass grave or somehow cremate all the bodies
with a fire that won't burn down the building? Maybe he's just
referring to gathering the corpses so they won't be trampled on in the
next segment of the battle, if any, but it just struck me as cold
inhumanity posing as humane and reasonable.

<snip question 3>
> 
> 4. Harry blurts out "Dumbledore!" and the door to the stairway
leading to the headmaster's office opens. When and why do you think
the password changed and who or what changed it?

Carol:

I think it would be really odd for Snape to have used a password that
so clearly reflected his loyalties all year long, with DEs on the
staff who expect him to be loyal to Voldemort. (If he didn't use this
password all year, I've probably been a bit too hard on McGonagall for
not guessing that Snape was a good guy!) It seems to me more likely
that he changed it to "Dumbledore at the last minute (when he knew
Harry was coming and Voldemort would soon follow). He must have
realized that, Nagini or no Nagini, it was time to give Harry the
memories, which he'd need the Pensieve to view. He may have set out
the Pensieve on the desk (instead of leaving it in the cabinet) at the
same time.
> 
> 5. Little Severus is described as "stringy," the same word that the
narrator uses to describe both the teenage Severus and Theodore Nott
in OoP. Did you think of Theo when you read the description of little
Severus, and, if so, what connection, if any, did you see between the
two Slytherin boys?

Carol:
Obviously, I was reminded of Theo or I wouldn't have asked the
question. In many ways, he seems like a young Snape, an intelligent
loner who happens to look "stringy" (gangly and undernourished,
maybe)? Theo would also, I think, be a neglected child, no mother and
an elderly father who's imprisoned at the end of OoP  when Theo is
fifteen or sixteen. who took care of him over the summer while his
father was in prison? Poor Theo. I'd like to know his story--and where
his loyalties lie. In other circumstances, maybe Snape would have
recognized a kindred spirit and taken him under his wing.
>
<skip 6 though I'm interested in the bat imagery and think there's a
connection between this description and the one of flying!Snape in
"The Sacking of Severus Snape.">

<snip 7 where my interpretation is probably already obvious.)
> 
> 8. Severus tells Lily that only wizards who "do really bad stuff"
are sent to Azkaban. What does this remark reveal about his sense of
good and evil and age nine or ten?

Carol:
I thought that JKR's depiction of a child's sense of good and evil was
spot on, and it's interesting that Severus is perfectly normal in this
respect--bad people go to prison, but not kids who do accidental
magic. That wouldn't be fair (and fairness is a large part of a
child's perspective). His view contrasts sharply with young Tom
Riddle's amoral, egocentric perspective. It also shows, I think, that
with guidance he could have become a good and happy man. He's eager to
learn, sure that he's destined for greatness, but ambition is a
Slytherin trait and not always bad. He just needed direction that he
never received.
> 
> 9. Severus is obviously lying when he denies dropping the tree
branch on Petunia, but neither his words nor his "scared and defiant"
expression make clear whether the magic is accidental or deliberate.
Which do you think it is and why? Why doesn't something similar happen
to James and Sirius in SWM where Severus is also wandless?

Carol:
I do, of course, think that the magic was accidental, but I tried to
keep my wording objective. Severus's reaction reminds me of that of a
Muggle child who's playing a bit too carelessly or roughly and
accidentally knocks over and breaks a vase. Yes, he knocked it over;
yes, he was playing too rough; yes, it's his fault, but *he didn't
mean to.* I think that's why Severus is both confused and defiant; he
didn't deliberately drop the tree branch, but he did want something
bad to happen to Petunia and he knows perfectly well that his own
(accidental) magic made the branch drop, just as Harry knows perfectly
well that his (accidental) magic blew up Aunt Marge because he wanted
something bad to happen to *her.* Harry is thirteen and has been using
a wand for two years when this incident happens, so accidental magic
doesn't stop instantly after a kid masters a wand. I think it can
happen on occasion even to adults when they're not in control of their
emotions (the jar of cockroaches being a possible example). Why didn't
it happen in SWM, then? I don't know. But if Severus could
*deliberately* drop a tree branch on Petunia at age nine or ten, as
Alla thinks, surely he could have done something similar--and more
drastic--at age sixteen?

BTW, peole talk about Lily controlling her magic. I'm guessing that at
one point she fell out of a swing and discovered that she was unhurt,
so she practiced and perfected that particular trick. Same thing with
the flower petals opening and closing. It happened the first time by
accident and she practiced that particular trick till she could
control it (contrast poor Ariana Dumbledore, who was too young to
repeat or even understand what she'd done). We don't know to what
extent little Severus can control his magic--or how he learned all
those "curses" that Sirius Black claims he came to school knowing. all
we know is that he knows he's a wizard, so clearly, he's done
something to reassure his mother that he's not a Squib. And she
wouldn't have told him about Hogwarts and the WW if she weren't sure
of his magical abilities.
 
> 10. Why does Petunia call Lily a "freak" (the same word that she
uses in SS/PS some twenty years later)? What justification, if any, do
you see for her view that sending "weirdos" like Lily and Severus to
Hogwarts will protect the "normal people"? Do you see any connection
with the Statute of Secrecy?

Carol:
I see Petunia here as a foil to Severus--his mirror image--prejudiced
against Wizards just as he's prejudiced against Muggles, and for
similar reasons. (She hasn't actually been abused, unless we count the
tree branch, but she's been sneered at and viewed as inferior and
excluded.) The Statute of Secrecy does, in a way, isolate wizards from
"normal" people, though of course, that's not it's purpose. It was
intended to protect Wizards (who view *themselves* as the "normal"
people) from witch-burning, witch-hanging Muggles who take views like
Petunia's to extremes. And, of course, anti-Muggle or anti-Muggle-born
prejudice taken to extremes by DEs and Voldemort is simply the reverse
of that coin.
> 
> 11. How in the world did the Muggle Evanses get through the barrier
> onto Platform 9 3/4 (or is this scene a Flint)?

Carol:
Thanks to everyone who answered this question, but I'm still bugged by
the Evans's presence. It jarred me to see Muggeles on Platform 9 3/4;
we've never seen Hermione's parents there; they wait for her outside
the platform along with the Muggle Dursleys. Getting into Diagon Alley
is different; all you need is a Wizard escort to tap the bricks and
the arch actually dissolves. In King's Cross, you're going through a
solid wall (which can, admittedly, be closed even to Wizards if
Dobby's around). I think it's something like the barrier that only
people with a Dark Mark can pass through in HBP: you have to be
magical to go through the wall. Evidently, I'm a minority of one on
this point!
> 
> 12. <snip> And what's your reaction to James's imaginary Sword of
Gryffindor, raised in defense of chivalry?

Carol:
Pippin pointed out, rightly, that we don't know that it's the Sword of
Gryffindor. Nevertheless, I think it is. James's parents were both at
Hogwarts and probably both Gryffindors. They've clearly extolled the
virtues of Gryffindor to him as Severus's mother (and probably
Sirius's parents) have extolled the virtues of Slytherin. James is
holding up a sword, associated with chivalry in tales of knights, so
maybe he's read about the Knights of the Round Table, but the only
Wizard in those stories is Merlin: the knights are Muggles. It seems
to me at least *likely* that the imaginary sword he's holding is the
Sword of the legendary Godric Gryffindor. And James's words, "Where
dwell the brave at heart!" are straight from the Sorting Hat (which
perhaps has reused some of its songs rather than composing new ones
every year for a thousand years. Maybe there's a regular cycle of
seven, varied only in times of crisis when a new song is called for.)
It's ironic that James, who values chivalry, turns out to be a bully,
even on the Hogwarts Express. (maybe he needed some guidance, too!)
> 
> 13. Why doesn't JKR identify the boy who calls out, "See ya,
> Snivellus"? Which boy do you think it was, and why do you think so?

Carol:
We don't know, of course, and maybe, as some people have said, it's
not important, but I think it was Sirius, in part because, as someone
pointed out, James trips Severus, so it makes sense for Sirius to add
insult to (intended) injury rather than having James do both, and in
part because Sirius clings to the nickname and uses it not only in SWM
but even in his own house as an adult, neither he nor Severus having
grown past the mutual antipathy they developed as children. (I don't
think it's one of the "rowdy boys," who take no part in the
conversation. It seems more likely to be Sirius expressing solidarity
with his new friend--and making sure that his friend doesn't associate
him with Slytherin despite his family background.)
> 
> 14 What's the significance, if any, of Lucius Malfoy's patting
Severus's back? Why include that detail?

Carol:
I think it foreshadows Snape's relationship to the older and probably
charming Prefect Lucius Malfoy, in some respects his role model.
Sirius sneeringly referred to Snape as Malfoy's "lapdog," surely a
reference to the year or two when Severus was a child and Lucius a
Prefect who deigned to pay attention to him, probably, if Sirius is
right about all those hexes that Severus knew before he came to
school, impressed by the little boy's precocity and talent. And if
Lucius was a budding DE at that point (Voldemort having newly risen),
he could have kept the boy in mind as a prospective recruit. Some sort
of friendship is suggested here, but not a friendship of equals:
blood, class, and age would all cause Lucius to think himself superior
to Severus, but he could exercise noblesse oblige to make sure that
the boy's talents were put to good, or should I say bad, use. On
Severus's side, this initial kind (or condescending) gesture may have
made him feel at home, and he would feel gratitude and admiration for
Lucius.
> 
> 15. Lily's version of the so-called Prank—Severus "sneaking" around
the Shrieking Shack and being saved by James from "whatever's down
there" sounds a lot like Sirius's version in PoA except that everyone
in the PoA scene knows what's down there. Do you think that Sirius is
Lily's source? Why or why not? Why do you think she rejects Severus's
"theory" (obviously, that Lupin is a werewolf)?

Carol:

I do think that Sirius is Lily's source, making James sound like a
hero and concealing "whatever's down there." I doubt that James would
have bragged about it himself, and Remus certainly wouldn't. The
reference to "Severus" as "sneaking" and the concealment of what's
down there sound like Sirius to me. Certainly, it's not an objective
or complete account of what happened; the goal would be to make the
"toerag" look heroic in Lily's eyes. As for why she rejects his
"theory," I don't know. Maybe she thinks it's implausible that
Dumbledore would let a werewolf into the school. Maybe she has a
mental image of werewolves as Fenrir Greyback types that doesn't fit
the quiet Lupin (who's also her fellow Prefect, however ineffectual).
Probably denial plays some part. The signs Severus has pointed out to
her are obvious enough, but she won't or can't believe them.
> 
> 16. Aside from not wanting to repeat a nine-page scene in detail,
why do you think JKR condenses Snape's worst memory to a single
paragraph? Is the tactic effective? <snip>  Note especially the last
line, "Distantly, he heard Snape shout at her in his humiliation and
his fury, the unforgivable word: Mudblood."

Carol:
Several people have pointed out that the significance of the memory in
terms of Snape's story is in the last word, but I was also hoping that
people would actually reread the paragraph and note *Harry's*
perspective. We don't get a rerun of the memory in part because he's
stationed himself as far as possible from James and his friends; he
doesn't want a rerun of that side of James's personality. I think he's
identifying with or at least compassionating with Severus here, and he
understands that the "unforgiveable word" is the result of
"humiliation and fury"--a mistake that can't be undone.
> 
> 17.  The adult Snape is marvelously articulate, often brilliantly
sardonic and sometimes even poetic, yet the teenage Severus is often
at a loss for words, and even the young adult Snape seems tongue-tied
in the hilltop scene with Dumbledore. What do you think happened in
the twelve or so years between the hilltop and Harry's first year at
Hogwarts to turn Snape into the snarky, sarcastic Potions master that
we encounter in SS/PS?

Carol:

It's true that we see Severus under duress in almost all these
situations. Certainly, the HBP was already snarky and clever. And yet
Severus at sixteen is still "stringy" and slightly hunched over from
too much reading (rather like Hermione). It seems to me that at some
point, either during his DE years or as a young teacher at Hogwarts,
he gained confidence and learned the power of a sarcastic word. He
seems to have cultivated sweeping movements and poetic phrases, as if
he's building a persona behind which to hide (maybe the Half-Blood
Prince rather than little Severus Snape, the boy from the wrong side
of the river). He sounds like a Pure-blood and an aristocrat most of
the time--except when he loses his self-control. In a way, it's like
the persona that Voldemort hides behind, escept that Snape hasn't lost
his humanity--he's just hiding it. Only weak people, he thinkds, wear
their hearts on their sleeves. And he doesn't want anyone to know what
he's thinking, either. Occlumency is supplemented with acting, which
he mentions to Draco in HBP. 
> 
> 18. What do you think Dumbledore means when he tells Snape, "If I
know [Harry], he will have arranged matters so that when he does set
out to meet his death, it will truly mean the end of Voldemort"?

Carol:
On one level, of course, he's talking about the Horcruxes, but he also
means that Harry will understand that he has to sacrifice himself and
he won't raise a wand to defend himself. That's the secret to the
powerful Love magic which, ultimately, is more important to
Voldemort's defeat than the Elder Wand.
> 
> 19. We get only a few hints of what Harry is feeling as he witnesses
these scenes, and yet he goes from hating Snape and wanting revenge
against him to publicly defending him and ultimately naming his second
son after him and Dumbledore. Aside from the shock of Snape's death,
which scenes do you feel had the most impact on Harry's change of
heart and why?

Carol:
I think its' the cumulative effect of the scenes in sequence. The
first few show his relationship with Lily and make him essentially a
sympathetic figure, or rather, one whose horrible clothes and status
as an outsider Harry can identify with. The next few show that he
still loved Lily despite his fall and that his remorse was genuine and
anguished. The remainder show Snape as Dumbledore's man even after
DD's death. Of these memories, probably the most important for Harry
are the rerun of SWM now that he knows the background, the explanation
of why Snape killed Dumbledore, and the Doe Patronus. But it's the
sequence, the involuntary identification with Snape, that does the
trick. Snape is no longer "the man he hated;" he's worthy of a public
vindication (and eventually naming his second son after).
> 
> 20. Why did JKR choose these particular memories for this chapter?
Why did *Snape* choose them?

Carol:
I think JKR chose them because they were necessary to tell Snape's
story from a perspective that Harry could identify with. DE memories
or memories of his life with Tobias Snape would only detract from the
Lily-centric focus. Snape, I think, chose them (in advance) knowing
that Lily was the key to getting Harry to trust him enough to accept
the one message that Snape *had* to deliver, the one about sacrificing
himself (which also shows the doe Patronus). He could have stopped
there, but he wanted Harry to know that the injury to George's ear was
an accident and that he had delivered the Sword of Gryffindor. Snape,
I think, wanted Harry to understand as well as trust him. It goes
beyond knowing that he loved Lily and knowing that he was loyal to
Dumbledore. He wants Harry to know that he was protecting him even
though he hated him; that he, too, repeatedly risked his life to bring
down Voldemort. The memories are *not* chosen to make snape look good.
Many of them show him at his most vulnerable and inarticulate. But,
taken together, they show that he, more than Harry, loved Lily. He,
too, was Dumbledore's man through and through.
> 
> 21. Did this chapter change or confirm your view of Snape? What
surprised you? What disappointed you? How did you feel at the end of
the chapter the first time through?

Carol:
Fair-weather friend that I am, I had some doubts about Snape. I
desperately *wanted* him to be good, but once in awhile I fell for the
red herrings, mostly in "the Sacking of Severus Snape." So "The
Prince's Tale" saved my sanity. I shed tears of joy over it because,
yes, he was Dumbledore's man after all and I should have trusted my
heart rather than my skeptical brain. I hadn't wanted his motivation
to be Lily. I didn't and don't like Lily in the chapter. I was shocked
by Dumbledore's words and actions in many places. But all in all, I
was happy that Snape was presented in such a way that most readers
could sympathize or empathize with him and Harry could at last view
him as a kindred spirit or fellow traveler rather than a mean teacher
 or the murderer against whom he wanted revenge. The loss of the
desire for revenge may even be as important as the knowledge that he
has to sacrifice himself in preparing him for the next terrible step. 

<snip 22>

Many thanks to SSS for her invaluable suggestions and comments and
apologies for the one typo that sneaked in there. If you missed it,
I'm not telling you where it is!

Carol, who would pick a shorter chapter next time if there were any
more to pick!