CHAPDISC: 34, The Forest Again

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 184998

<snip excellent summary>
> Discussion Questions
> 1.  What did you think as you read Harry's immediate reaction to the
knowledge that he must die?  Did you find his reaction realistic?  
Did this scene change your opinion of Harry in any way?

Carol responds:

It's impossible to recapture the feeling I had when I first read the
chapter, fresh from "The Prince's Tale" and still grieving for Snape.
Now all I see is the unreliable narrator: "Neither would live; neither
could survive." (Wrong!) I remember, though, that I shared Harry's
sense that Dumbledore had betrayed him. I understood both his terror
and his determination to do what must be done. I respected both his
courage and his understanding that he must sacrifice himself rather
than raising a wand in his own defense. The moment when he opened the
Snitch was, I think, the only time that I've ever cried for Harry in
any of the books. And I was touched by his identification with Severus
Snape and Tom Riddle, the "abandoned boys" whose only home was
Hogwarts. I think that this chapter, especially the first part (up to
the point when his loved ones appear) was the closest I've ever come
to identifying and empathizing with Harry even though part of me knew
(and had predicted in our pre-DH discussions) that Harry wasn't really
going to die. (It didn't help that the American edition has a picture
of Harry without glasses above the chapter title for "King's Cross"!).

> 
> 2.  How about Dumbledore?  Did it make sense to you that Harry did 
not seem to blame Dumbledore?  How did you feel about Dumbledore, as
you read Harry's thoughts?

Carol responds:

"Dumbledore's betrayal"--counterbalanced by Snape's horror at the "pig
to the slaughter" plan--had me in something like shock. I'm not sure
how I reacted to Harry's reaction because I think, for once, it was
the same as mine. I think I hated the cold, heartless, manipulative
(supply expletive) and felt betrayed myself (not for the first time in
these books). I don't know whether I recalled the gleam in DD's eye
and suspected that he knew there was a way out for Harry. I only know
that I very much needed "King's Cross" to get back the Dumbledore I
had respected and liked despite his egotism and inadequate
appreciation of Snape. But Harry's understanding that he must die (or
give himself up to be killed without a fight) is remarkable and
admirable. I think, BTW, that what goes through Harry's mind in the
first half of this chapter is what DD had in mind when he told Snape
that when the time came to face Voldemort, Harry will have done what's
necessary to destroy Voldemort permanently. It's not just the
Horcruxes; it's an understanding; a state of mind; a specific way of
facing death without resistance. (I wonder if he also meant that Harry
would have opened the Snitch to help himself face death, not without
fear but without mindless terror and with an understanding that death
is not the end.)

> 3.  What did you think of the imagery as Harry walks through the
deserted, empty halls and stairways of Hogwarts?

Carol:
I think that the empty hallways and portraits simply emphasized his
aloneness, if that's a word. No friends beside him, no mentor, nothing
between him and death. And, of course, he's invisible, too, so no one
is even aware of his plight. 
 
> 4.  Neville has come up often in this book's chapter discussions.  
Thinking of the Neville in the early books, even up to the third, did
you think anything about Neville being out recovering bodies?  Could
you have imagined this Neville from what we saw of him in previous books?
> 
Carol responds:
We saw Neville being brave, fighting or trying to fight Crabbe and
Goyle and trying to stop HRH from getting Gryffindor into trouble
again, way back in SS/PS. It was his ten points for bravery that broke
the tie with Slytherin and gave Gryffindor the House cup. Setting
aside how some posters feel about that bit of manipulation by
Dumbledore and look only at Neville, I think we knew from the
beginning that, like that fattest and most timid Hobbit, he had the
seeds of courage in him. By the end of OoP, when, despite a broken
wand, a broken nose, and Bellatrix's Cruciatus Curse, he's yelling at
Harry not to give the Prophecy orb to Lucius Malfoy, he's more than
proven his worth. I don't remember much about Neville in HBP--only
that he has his own wand and Gran is proud of him--but I'm not
surprised that he stepped into the vacuum created by Harry's absence
and emerged as a leader. It was in him all along. (It probably helped
that the other former DA members knew he'd been at the MoM with Harry.
That probably made them more willing to follow him than they might
otherwise have been.)

> 5.  In his journey to meet Voldemort, Neville is the only living
person to whom Harry speaks.  Why Neville?  Do you think Harry could
have been thinking that Neville was the other "prophecy boy"?  Do you
think Neville knew Harry was going to sacrifice himself in spite of
Harry's denials?

Carol responds:
I think that implication (Neville as the other possible prophecy boy)
is there whether Harry is consciously aware of it or not (Neville
can't possibly know it). But Harry's respect for Neville had greatly
increased. He knows that he's the leader of the resistance movement at
Hogwarts, and, as I mentioned earlier, he was part of the MoM fiasco
in OoP. Also, of course, Neville has lost his parents to Voldemort as
much as Harry has even though they're not dead and even though
Bellatrix and her cohorts, not Voldemort himself are directly
responsible. he has the right to help to destroy Voldemort, to play an
important role, even though he doesn't know that the snake is a
Horcrux. And who but Neville would be so matter of fact about it?
"Kill the snake?" Harry might have asked him to turn on a water faucet
for all the resistance he makes. It's got to be done, so he does it.
(well, takes on the burden of doing it without question or argument).
> 
> 6.  As Harry watches Ginny with the injured girl who wants to go 
home, he thinks of himself, Voldemort and Snape as the "abandoned 
boys" who all found their only home at Hogwarts.  How did you react 
to this thought?  Why did Harry think of those three and link them in
such a way, a common bond between them all?

Carol responds:
I thought it was a rare moment of insight for Harry, who first wants
to go home, like the girl, then realizes that he *is* home (the
Dursleys and 4 Privet Drive don't even enter his mind), and then, with
his new insights into Snape's mind, puts himself, his former enemy,
and his true and permanent enemy together as a unit--"the abandoned
boys." He had seen parallels with Tom Riddle as early as CoS. They
would have been reinforced by the Pensieve excursions of HBP. And the
glimpses of Snape's past in the Occlumency lessons and the HBP's notes
, both of which stirred empathy in him (at least before he knew that
the HBP was Snape) would have been reinforced by Snape's memories in
the Pensieve moments before. I don't think that Harry is conscious of
the way his mind has put all this together; he only sees the result,
the epiphany of the common bond among them all. It's an epiphany that
James, who had never known abandonment or rejection, could never have
reached, and I think we see its consequences in Harry's vindication of
Snape and in his offer to Voldemort of redemption through repentance.
("Offer" is the wrong word since redemption is not in Harry's power,
but I can't think of a better word at the moment.)
> 
> 7.  What did you feel as 17-year-old Harry put the snitch to his
mouth and said the words, "I am about to die"?

Carol responds:
I bawled like a baby, of course!
> 
> 8.  Were you surprised at the identity of any of the people who came
to Harry through the Resurrection Stone?

Carol responds:
I think I was mildly surprised that Lupin was there, but given how
recent his death was and Harry's sense of guilt over it, I think his
presence made sense. And Fred's joking personality would have been out
of place. And, given his sense that DD had betrayed him, of course he
wasn't there, either. I think Lily and the Marauders minus Peter made
perfect sense. (Harry didn't give it any conscious thought; it's as if
the Stone simply knew who he most wanted and needed to see.)  
> 
> 9.  Did you find the interaction between Harry and his loved ones 
typical, particularly of interactions between himself and Sirius and 
Lupin?  Did you feel Sirius and Lupin acted in character in this 
scene?  What about James and Lily?  Did they say or do anything that
surprised you, given the little but important things we knew of them
previously?

Carol:
Everyone seemed in character to me except that James was the young
adult of the "echo" in GoF rather than the toerag of SWM and the
so-called Prank. The bit about Lily and Harry just staring at each
other was a bit soppy. It was as if Harry had reverted to the
eleven-year-old staring into the Mirror of Erised. I liked Harry's
wanting to be forgiven by Lupin even though he did exactly the right
thing (IMO) in sending him home to be with Tonks. And since Harry is
little Teddy's godfather, it's fitting that he can some day tell the
story to Teddy and pass on his father's words from beyond the grave.
> 
> 10.  When Harry is saying that he didn't want them to die, why was
he mostly addressing Lupin?

Carol responds:
Because his sense of responsibility for Lupin's death is still fresh.
His parents died before he really knew them, and, of course, they know
he didn't want them to die. And he's probably come to terms with
Sirius's death, placing the blame where it belongs (on Bellatrix and
Voldemort). But he's just seen Lupin and Tonks and Fred lying dead on
a table, all of them fighting the DEs rather than turn him, Harry,
over to Voldemort. He probably feels that if he'd gone to meet
Voldemort in the first place, they wouldn't be dead. (Of course, he
wouldn't have known that he had to sacrifice himself, either, and
would probably have tried to fight him, not knowing about the soul bit
in his scar.)
> 
> 11.  Harry's loved ones have promised to stay with him to the end.
Why did he drop the Resurrection Stone before entering the clearing
and meeting Voldemort?  Was it accidental, just nerves, or was there
another reason?  Did he not want them there with him when he died?

Carol responds:
Good question, and one I've also wondered about. I think they were
there as long as he needed them, until he revealed himself to
Voldemort and made his "death" inevitable. At that point, he doesn't
want any props--no wand, no cloak, no Hallows. He's going to be
joining them in a few seconds, so he thinks. there's no longer any
need for their company, which was intended to give him courage (and
protection from the Dementors) until the end. I don't think it was
accidental or just nerves. Only the living want, or think they want, a
Resurrection Stone. Harry is as good as dead himself at that moment.
He no longer needs it.
> 
> 12.  Were the final moments of this chapter what you expected?  Did
you think there would be more, more action, more description, more
dialogue between Harry and Voldemort?

Carol:
I'm not sure what I expected. I think I did expect more dialogue, but,
then, if he's just going there to be killed and he's obviously
wandless, there's not much to say except "Avada Kedavra!" You'd think,
though, that Voldemort would suspect something seeing Harry wandless.
I guess he just wanted to take advantage of the absence of the holly
wand, not knowing that it was broken.  
> 
> 13.  What was your immediate reaction at the end of this chapter?
Did you think, even for a moment, that Harry was really dead?

Carol:
If I'd been reading the Bloomsbury edition, I mmight have thought so,
but Harry's face above the words "King's Cross" made me expect that
something was up. Besides, the whole set-up of the books leads us to
expect that Harry will somehow kill or vanquish Voldemort, and he has
to be alive to do that. (I certainly didn't anticipate "King's Cross,"
but that's a matter for the next chapter discussion.) 
> 
> 14.  What was your overall reaction to this chapter and all its events?

Carol:
My initial reaction was stronger than my reaction now, which is mainly
annoyance with the unreliable narrator presenting what Harry thinks is
"the truth" when its still only partial truth. The most touching
moment for me was when Harry understood the words "I open at the
close" and spoke the words, "I am about to die." That was more
climactic than the encounter with his loved ones or even the actual
sacrifice, which was, I think, effective in its simplicity. I'm pretty
sure that this is the chapter that JKR shed buckets of tears over, but
I'm not JKR. I see quite a few parallels between Harry and Christ in
this chapter, but I don't want to discuss them now.
> 
> 15.  Please share any other questions or thoughts that come to mind 
> about this chapter.  

Carol:
None at the moment, but thanks very much, Sherry, for the accurate
summary and thought-provoking questions.

Carol, who probably would not have dropped the Resurrection Stone