Sirius and Snape parallels again

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 185025

> > Alla:
> > 
> > Of course he could but for the boy he loved. When the choice is 
made
>  because of the safety of the loved one, I do not believe it is a 
real
>  choice so to speak IMO.
> 
> Pippin:
>  Sirius's choice to love and protect Harry is not a real choice? 
><SNIP>That can't be  what you're trying to say, but logically, if 
Sirius has
> to  make bad choices because he loves Harry, and we want him to make
> good choices, we shouldn't want him to love Harry, right?


Alla:

No that was not what I was trying to say of course. What I was saying 
that when someone makes a choice which is hurting him or her and when 
somebody is making that choice because of the loved one's safety, 
that is not really a choice.

In other words, of course Sirius had a choice to not return to GP 12, 
however since he made a choice to be closer to Harry, for Harry's 
safety and piece of mind (unless you are disputing this part), I do 
not think that he really had a choice. Does that make sense?

I mean, of course, please I understand that you will say that there 
is always a choice and in theory I agree, however, in practice no I 
do not.

Do I think Xeno Lovegood really had a choice when he betrayed Harry? 
No I do not. I mean, no that is not an exact parallel of course, I 
would think he should have tried to maybe contact the Order, however 
hopefully it makes some sense.

Do I think Narcissa had a choice when she went to Snape to ask to 
protect Draco? Not really, no I do not. I mean, again this is not an 
exact analogy of course, since I definitely think that Narcissa 
should have gone to Dumbledore (although I wonder what sort of help 
she would have gotten), BUT I do not believe that she had a choice in 
the matter of whether to do something or **not to do something**.

And when Carol argued that Sirius had a choice to stay in the 
tropical paradise my only response is um, no, not really, not in my 
opinion. Not if he loved Harry and I am convinced that he did.

And what I think Dumbledore should have done is NOT to capitalize on 
it, but help Sirius to survive that choice, both *mentally and 
physically* IMO.


> Alla:
> > Snape also chose to come to Dumbledore to ask for Lily's 
protection, 
> > he could have merrily continue on being a DE and I do not think 
> > Dumbledore can be blamed one bit for Snape's previous choices. 
> > However, man in the memory looks suicidal even to Harry. You 
think 
> > that's how suicidal man should be treated whether he made all 
those 
> > choices or not?
> 
> Pippin:
> Snape was giving aid and comfort to a band of  murderers, and he
> didn't see anything wrong with that as long as the person he cared
> about was safe.  Is it wrong to tell  such a person that  decent
> people can not even *want* to help him unless he changes his ways, 
but
> if he does change them, they will do what they can?  
> 
> IMO, Dumbledore was telling Snape what Lily should have told him 
when
> she slammed the door in his face instead: that she was revolted, but
> she'd help if he was willing to change. He was not dealing with 
Snape
> as a professional who is supposed to keep his personal feelings to
> himself, but man-to-man.

Alla:

Yes and as I said I do not blame Dumbledore one bit for Snape's past 
choices. And I also mentioned before, not in this thread, but 
previously that I think Snape deserved **every word** he got from 
Dumbledore, including **you disgust me**. However, to me we are 
talking about two separate things. Snape deserving to hear those 
things does not equal Snape deserving being manipulated in the 
service of Light when Snape IMO is at his lowest.

But I am sure you will ask me what I think Dumbledore should have 
done for me to consider him a compassionate man in this scene and at 
the same time leader of light? Because see I think those two things 
are not mutually exclusive.

I absolutely think that the member of the gang of killers and 
torturers needs to hear you disgust me, definitely. However, asking 
him to serve Dumbledore in exchange for the protection of those whom 
Dumbledore **already** supposed to protect? Um, what the heck 
Dumbledore? How about telling Snape that yes, thank you we will 
protect our own. I will tell you more, I do not even mind Dumbledore 
telling Snape that as a condition Dumbledore insists Snape to quit. I 
mean, after all why exactly Dumbledore cannot make sure that his 
soldiers will have one less DE to fight?

And then give him Draco's choice at least. Tell him that Light will 
protect him. That's it. Do not force him to serve you, please. I 
mean, I was glad to read it, since I cannot stand Snape. However, the 
fact that I cannot stand Snape does not change my opinion of 
Dumbledore's actions here. I think he acts very cruelly here.

And if Snape tells you that he wants to serve you when he is not at 
such low point in his life, at least few weeks after, sure why not. 
But this night when all his thoughts are about Lily and how guilty he 
may feel? 


> Pippin:
> How can Dumbledore be such a deft manipulator and have no knowledge 
of
> Sirius's psyche? 

Alla:

Oh no not such a deft manipulator, just the one IMO as what Lizzyben 
describes, the one who plays his psychic trauma over and over again 
at other people. 

Pippin:
The problem, IMO, is not that Sirius had nothing
> important to do, the problem was that Sirius defined "important" as
> "life-threatening".  He didn't feel worthy unless he was braving
> dangers, but he was like a compulsive gambler -- every risk he
> survived tempted him to take a greater one. 

Alla:

Really? So what did he have to do for the Order in OOP? How about 
writing something? How about strategy conversations? Letters campaign 
to newspapers to clear Dumbledore and Harry? Anything? What was he 
doing that could be classified of help that was not life threatening 
but did not satisfy Sirius as being life threatening enough?

As far as I remember - nothing, not even something that did not 
require leaving the house. 

I also wonder, what was so very life threatening about notifying old 
crowd task at the end of GoF and lying low at Lupin afterwards?

Sirius seemed to embrace it with gusto to me.


Pippin: 
> The cloak would have done him no good because he would have used it
> recklessly, deliberately courting danger as he did when he
> fought Bella. 

Alla:

Dumbledore did not try, so we will never know.

Pippin: 
> Sirius did not have to stay at GP -- he could have been hidden
> elsewhere. My sense is he *chose* to be there, because it was as
> close to the action as Dumbledore would allow him to be. 

Alla:

IMO he chose to be where Harry was.

Pippin: 
> I am not so sure Sirius was as healthy as he seemed to be in GoF. 
Many
> disturbed people can pull it together for an hour or two. Sirius was
> spending most of his time as a dog, begging handouts or hunting 
rats.
> He wasn't trying hold down a job or get along with people day-to-
day,
> and I'm not so sure he could have.

Alla:

I do not think that he was perfectly healthy in GoF however I do 
think that he started recovery and I do think that GP is what caused 
the relapse and yes, I think Dumbledore is responsible for that at 
least partially.

 
> Pippin
> wishing a Happy Thanksgiving to those who are celebrating
>

Alla:

Me too :)