Sirius and Snape parallels again

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 185050

> > Montavilla47:
> > That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, unless Dumbledore really
> > thought that the prophecy was nonsense.  If Harry or Neville had 
> > the possiblity of being the one who would vanquish Voldemort, then
> > it only made sense to protect them, even before Snape showed up
> > with his warning.
> 
> Pippin:
> I do think Dumbledore thought the prophecy was nonsense. But even if
> he didn't,"those who have thrice defied him" is so vague as to be
> meaningless. It could apply to any wizard who hated LV, and as he
> himself said, there were many of them. Unless Dumbledore had the
> resources to put every wizarding baby born towards the end of July
> under the secret keeper spell, he had to wait on Voldemort's decision.
> Protecting only some of the children would be tantamount to painting a
> bullseye on them.

Montavilla47:
I agree that the "thrice defied him" phrase is vague.  I've argued that 
many times in the past (although, probably not here as much) to 
people who think Snape was well aware that the prophecy targeted
the Potters.  The first part of the prophecy doesn't even specify that
the child is still unborn (the second half does that).  So, it could have
applied to *anyone* born in July who had thrice defied Voldemort.

Heck, that might be someone born to the kids he grew up in the 
orphanage for all anyone knew at that point.  

But Dumbledore had heard the whole prophecy and knew that 
the possible vanquishers was more limited.   Maybe he really
did think the prophecy was nonsense, but his choice to hire
Trelawney (for a course he considered absurd) argues against
that idea.  If the prophecy was nonsense, then there was no
need to safeguard the prophetess.

> > Pippin:
> > > Dumbledore was serving notice that Snape wouldn't be allowed to
> use the Order as he'd hoped to use Voldemort -- to dispose of Lily's
>  family so he could have her to himself.
> > 
> > Montavilla47:
> > I find that quite unfair.  There is absolutely no indication that 
> > Snape intended to have Lily "to himself."  We don't, of course, 
> > know exactly when Snape heard the prophecy, so it's impossible
> > to say that he didn't know it would apply to Lily and Jame's son.
> 
> Pippin:
>  Snape turned to Dumbledore only because he feared that Voldemort
> would not keep his word, not because he no longer found the bargain
> itself acceptable. 

Montavilla47:
Agreed.  But that doesn't mean that Snape wanted Lily "for himself."  He
wanted her alive.  Period.  The matter of whether or not James and 
Harry survived was a matter of indifference to him.  

Pippin:
> Snape may have made his request of Voldemort before
> or after he delivered the prophecy, probably before, since Hagrid says
> that no one understood why Voldemort had left James and Lily alone for
> so long. 

Montavilla47:
I don't recall Hagrid saying that.  But there are some extra-canonical
statements from JKR about Voldemort trying to recruit both James and
Lily.  And, that Lily was a member of the order until she found out that 
she was pregnant, at which point she stopped active duty.  (I can't quite
recall, but JKR may have even said that Lily and James went into hiding
even before Harry was born.)

So, take that for what it's worth.  It's not canon, but it does show a bit
of what JKR *intended.*  

But I suppose it's *possible* that Snape tried to make some kind of 
bargain with Voldemort (delivering the prophecy for LV sparing Lily),
although he'd be more likely to need to use the prophecy to deflect
punishment for failing to get the D.A.D.A. job.  

I have no idea why Voldemort would even agree to spare anyone 
for his Death Eater, unless he was very happy with Snape for 
bringing the prophecy.  The way he treats the agreement, it sounds
more like a "gracious" boon to a favored minion than anything else.

Perhaps Snape had done something pre-Prophecy to warrant 
such a request.  But I kind of doubt it.  And maybe Voldemort
allowed his minions to create a hands-off list, but that doesn't 
seem likely, either.  

Even if Snape made that request earlier, there's something
that set him off recently, something that convinced him that
Voldemort wasn't going to honor the request.  Which would 
most likely have been Voldemort's targeting of the Potter
family.  

Pippin:
>It didn't occur to me that Snape might have asked Voldemort
> to spare Lily even before she'd got married, but that doesn't change
> anything. My point is that he had asked Voldemort to spare Lily
> knowing that those whom she loved were also at risk. His morality was
> the same as Aragog's. 

Montavilla47:
Right.  Which is what disgusts Dumbledore--not that Snape is 
trying to manipulate Dumbledore into killing off James and Harry
(or allowing them to be killed) so that he can have Lily all to himself.
Because Snape isn't trying to do that at all.  Snape isn't trying
to manipulate anything in that scene.  He's in a blind panic. 

And that panic isn't about trying to get Lily to himself.  Lily hasn't
been in a relationship with him for several years.  You don't get 
dumped by someone and suddenly panic about it five years later.
What's put him in a panic is that Lily has been threatened.

Which is why I doubt that Snape made any such request of 
Voldemort very long before we see him.  Because if he had 
thought Lily was really being threatened earlier, he would have
been panicking earlier.

> > Pippin:
> > > But that meant DD would lose two fighters -- was it wrong for him
> to ask what Snape could offer in return? 
> > 
> > Montavilla47:
> > Really, all I can say to that is that if Dumbledore was thinking 
> > only about the number of his fighters, then he has no business
> > faulting Snape for his indifference to James and Harry.
> 
> Pippin:
> The number of his fighters is the number of innocent lives that
> Dumbledore can protect --  what on earth is wrong with Dumbledore
> thinking about that?

Montavilla47:
Because, if he's strictly thinking about numbers, he's not taking 
any care for those of this soldiers who are being specifically 
targeted.  And the infant child that they have.  

Who would be one of those innocent lives.