Caring about people

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 184540

Catlady wrote:
> All the Order members, including all 13 people who volunteered to
transport Harry, had signed up to be Dumbledore's soldiers. As such,
they had consented in advance to going on missions where they were
likely to die, and to obeying orders without explanation.

> Alla responded:
> 
> Where to start? Okay, first of all comparison between Dumbledore and
real life generals falls flat for me for several reasons.
> 
> Reason number one is very simple; I do not remember Dumbledore
having a military rank of the general or any military rank for that
matter. I remember him assembling a group of volunteers, mostly his
former students and some teachers who indeed agreed to follow him and
fight with him.
> 
> I do not know, to me this arrangement implies in a way much more
intimate and trusting relationship. <snip>

Carol responds:

I agree with you that Dumbledore has no authority as a military
commander. I'm not so sure, however, about the "intimate and trusting
relationship." Dumbledore knows that the Order members are dedicated,
as he is, to fighting Voldemort. The Order members know, as Sirius
Black says in OoP, that they are risking death for a cause. Mr.
Weasley is bitten by Nagini but remains in the Order. Snape repeatedly
risks death. So does Lupin in associating with Fenrir Greyback and
other werewolf supporters of LV. They know what happened to members of
the Order (and, in the case of the MacKinnons, their innocent
children), yet they join or rejoin the Order. Some causes, Sirius
Black say, are worth dying for.

Dumbledore is not a general, true. He's the leader of a resistance
movement. Those he leads are all volunteers who have put their lives
on the line. They will do what he asks, do what's necessary to bring
Voldemort down, even if that means dying. And so, in the end, does
Harry, willingly sacrificing himself, not because he wants to or
because he any longer trusts Dumbledore but because he must die (he
thinks) to destroy the soul bit in his head. Snape could have refused
to kill Dumbledore. He wanted to refuse. We see his reluctance
initially, and in the forest with DD, and again on the tower. But he
does Dumbledore's will in the end because he must, because if he does
not, matters will be much, much worse. He will die, Harry (and
probably Draco) will be killed, Fenrir will desecrate Dumbledore's
body, and the DEs will take over Hogwarts. Voldemort will win. It's
not a matter of following orders because he can't refuse. It's a
matter of heeding Dumbledore's plea because he chooses to do so,
accepting the consequences of "murdering" Dumbledore (infamy and a
chance to secretly undermine Voldemort) over a heroic death fighting
the DEs (or a quick death from the UV) and certain defeat for
Dumbledore's cause. It's a hard choice, a terrible choice, but the
right choice in the end. 

Dumbledore's right to put him in that position is perhaps another
question, but he could not let Draco or a DE loyal to Voldemort kill
him (and not just because he didn't want to be tortured or torn apart
by a a maniac's teeth). He needed to end the Elder Wand's power. He
couldn't allow himself to die from the ring curse or the poison
because that would be murder by Voldemort, making Voldemort the master
of the wand. Suicide (which would probably split his soul) would not
end the power of the wand. A mercy killing/coup de grace by Snape (it
had to be Snape, not only because no one else would do it but because
only Snape could become LV's right-hand man and protect Hogwarts)
*would* end the power of the wand (unless, as he could not have
anticipated, Draco send it out the window first) and accomplish a
number of Snape-related objectives as well. (The euthanasia and Draco
arguments, though true, were chosen IMO to persuade Snape, not because
they were Dumbledore's true or primary motives. That LV would expect
it and that DD wanted Snape to go under cover and protect the
students, Snape already knew.)

If Dumbledore had not stupidly put on the ring (how could *he*, with
all his intelligence and sensitivity to hidden magic, not have known
or at least guessed that the ring Horcrux was cursed?), matters would
have been different. DD's and Snape both account for DD's blackened
hand as the result of slowed reflexes and old age, but obviously
that's a cover story--DD is not so much as winded by the encounter
with Voldemort in the MoM. Had he remained in that condition--able to
deal with Fudge, Umbridge, and Dawlish (and the undercover
Shacklebolt) effortlessly, able to deal with a dozen (admittedly
battle-worn) DEs at once, able to defeat Voldemort one on one--he
might not have had to resort to the plan of having Snape kill him
(despite LV's expectations and his need to have Snape go undercover).
He could have disarmed Draco *and* frozen Harry, dispensed easily of
all the DEs, and not brought Snape into it at all. But the injured
hand an impending death make the Snape plan necessary, and his
wandlessness and the terrible potion and the UV make it all the more
urgent that Snape act on the plan. (I think Snape adds a few touches
of his own in sending DD over the wall to keep him from Greyback and
in his duel with Harry, but DD has always relied on Snape's quick
thinking. He can hardly plan Snape's every action and every word.)

What plan DD would have made if Draco weren't trying on LV's orders to
kill him and he weren't already dying from the ring curse, I can't
guess. As things were, his options were limited. He would not have a
seventh year to train and prepare Harry. He must do what he could in
that sixth year, make sure that Snape took his place in the seventh,
and disarm the Elder Wand, unknown to anyone, at the same time. And to
do that, Snape and only Snape had to kill him.

Alla wrote:
> 
> I absolutely agree with you that sending soldiers on suicide
missions does not necessarily means viewing them as tools. I must not
have been very clear though because I think that Dumbledore's telling
Snape to leak this information was **unnecessary** and **stupid**,
that's my main beef with this. <snip>
> 
> NONE. I mean, I would be sad of course, but order members knew that
when they guard Harry, they are going to the very risky mission and
they can die. They did not know though that the portrait of their dead
leader unnecessary IMO increased those risks. I take an issue with that.

Carol responds:
You may be right. However, the only element of the plan that Snape
reveals is the time and date that they'll leave (and that they won't
be Apparating or using the Floo network). That *seems* to put the
Order members at additional risk, and certainly would have done so if
not for the part of the plan that Snape doesn't reveal (thank goodness
for superb Occlumency skills that can stand up to LV's Legilimency!)
the Polyjuiced Harrys (Portrait!Dumbledore's own idea, conveyed to the
Order via Snape and Confundungus). The Dursleys' house would have been
watched by DEs in any case. True, Mad-eye seems to be thinking only of
a small group of watching DEs, but surely he knows that LV would
arrive instantly the moment the watching DEs touched their Dark Marks,
along with the remaining DEs, who would be on alert to respond when LV
touched *his* Dark Mark. They can all Apparate, broom in hand, ready
to go. (LV, as we know, doesn't need a broom, but that's beside the
point.)

Had it not been for the part of DD's plan that Snape concealed, there
would have been only one Harry guarded by undisguised Order members,
probably the same set of volunteers, and many more people would almost
certainly have died. The Poly-juiced Harry plan forces the DEs to
split into seven groups and gives everyone (especially Harry) a better
chance at survival. And while it's still very dangerous, it's no more
so than it would have been if Snape (playing the loyal, well-informed
right-hand man to the hilt) had not revealed the time and date. (The
place, of course, was already known.) It's what he *didn't* tell them
that gives them the only chance they'll have of succeeding, a point
that Snape (who apparently is less sanguine about the plan than
portrait DD) makes clear to Mundungus: "*It is the only thing that
might work.*"

IOW, the Order's plan (it's not DD's or Snape's; Snape's unnamed
source, almost certainly Mundungus, has revealed it to him) will *not*
work without the decoys (which are Portrait!DD's idea, the details of
which he seems already to have discussed with Snape--either that or
Snape deduces that "decoys" means identical Poly-juiced Potters), and
even with the decoys, it *might* work but there's no guarantee.
Mundungus appears to have repeated Snape's words because Mad-eye tells
Harry, "Our only chance is to use decoys. Even You-Know-who can't
split himself into seven." (Portrait!DD tells Snape that he thinks the
plan will ensure *Harry's* safety; the Order members' danger, as DD,
Snape, and the Order members themselves realize, is extreme either
way, but perhaps lessened by the division of the DEs into seven groups.) 

Mad-eye, too, is thinking about *Harry's* safety, not his own. He
takes pains to put Harry with Hagrid, the Order member that LV is
least likely to suspect is guarding the real Harry, and to make sure
that Harry doesn't ride a broom (as LV is likely to anticipate he'll
do). Harry says, "If you think I'm going to let six people risk their
lives--" but he's cut off by Ron, pointing out that it's not the first
time that they've done so. "Everyone here's overage, Potter," says
Mad-eye, "and they're all prepared to take the risk." He tells the
"spineless worm" Mundungus (whom they nevertheless believe came up
with this brilliant plan on his own!) that "it's the protectors who
have got the most to worry about, the Death Eaters'll want to kill
them." He also chooses to ride with Mundungus, the most useless (and
most expendable) of the Harry decoys, knowing quite well that LV is
likely to go after him as an Auror and the Order member LV would think
most likely to be guarding Harry. I'm quite sure that Mad-eye knew,
even more than the others, just how great a risk he was taking and
that he (and perhaps the other Order members, especially his fellow
Aurors, Tonks and Kingsley) might well be killed. The risk was less
for any "Harrys" not pursued by LV himself. But it was Harry's safety
that mattered. If Harry lived, the plan succeeded in his and DD's
view, no matter how many Order members died in the attempt. (As for
Snape, who was told to keep his cover no matter what and nevertheless
risked discovery of his true loyalties by saving Lupin, perhaps he had
another view of the matter.) 

Catlady:
> That Snape's leak of the Seven Potters plan to LV was an 'Order'
(dead DD) feint rather than Snape's loyal to LV betrayal of the Order
is the kind of information (like troop movements in times of war) that
is a LEGITIMATE military secret and therefore protected by not telling
anyone people who don't 'need to know'. <SNIP>
> 
Alla:
> 
> Sorry, but again I disagree that it was a good order, a necessary
order and therefore I equal it to betrayal pretty much.

Carol responds:
A betrayal of Harry by Portrait!DD do you mean rather than a betrayal
by snape, who was following orders (and made sure that the Order knew
just how risky their plan was, even with the decoys)? Obviously, it's
essential to Portrait!DD's plans that Snape remain undiscovered and
appear to be, still, a valuable spy. (He's doing exactly what he's
always done, appearing to provide important information but
withholding the key piece.) 

I do think that the original plan (Harry leaving the Dursleys' at
nightfall with an Order escort) is fatally flawed even if thirty DEs
hadn't descended on them. Two DEs and Voldemort would be sufficient to
guarantee that at least someone got killed and LV would go immediately
for Harry. And, of course, he would have summoned the other DEs to
come instantly. But the Poly-juiced Potters diversion causes confusion
and allows at least some (in fact most) of them a chance to escape and
causes LV to pursue the wrong Harry(s). (It's Harry's own blunder that
alerts Selwyn to his identity.)

I'm not sure what else they could have done. The Floo Network is
definitely out as it could not have been hooked up to the Dursleys'
house without detection and Apparition is somehow being monitored.
Otherwise, side-along apparition under the Invisibility Cloak,
Hedwig's cage and all, seems the best option. Sidenote here: DD sends
Harry's supplies on to the Weasleys' in HBP so you'd think that some
of the other fully qualified Wizards could do the same in DH. I
suppose that magic in Harry's presence would be detectable, but if
he'd be leaving the next second, what would it matter? 

At any rate, assuming that Apparition really isn't an option, what
better plan would you propose? It seems to me that Portrait!DD, with
Snape's invaluable assistance, made the best of a very dangerous plan
and that Snape's revelations, while preserving his credibility and
status as LV's right-hand man, made the plan no more dangerous than it
already was, the danger (to Harry and the Poly-juiced decoys, at
least) having been already lessened by the decoys.

It seems to me that any problems with the original plan are traceable
to the Order, who originated it and ought to have known LV better than
to assume that they might be fighting only two or three DEs. But it's
clear that Moody and Mundungus, at least, knew that the danger of
death was real. Ron had faced it with Harry befor and was ready to do
so again; the Twins, perhaps, thought that it was all a great
adventure (a lesson they learned the hard way through George's lost
ear and Mad-eye's death). Tonks and Kingsley are Aurors and have
fought DEs before. So has Lupin. And Mr. Weasley nearly died in the
service of the Order in OoP. They know what they're facing, and
they're willing to die to save Harry. Even Fleur has risked death in
the TWT and is weeling to reesk eet again for 'arry. As are Hagrid,
Ron, and Hermione. I suspect that others would have volunteered as in
OoP if Mad-eye had thought it necessary to have more than seven
Potters, even knowing that this time, the risk was far greater. Every
one of them (Mundungus excepted) is ther, not because of Dumbledore,
but because of Harry. (Mundungus, I suspect, is there because Mad-eye
insisted that he participate in "his" plan.)

Carol, wondering to what extent Dumbledore can be held accountable for
his portrait's suggestions and exactly what he told Snape before his
(DD's) death about this novel mode of communication