Expelliarmus and backfiring

[Sandy]

No: HPFGUIDX 184652

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "AJT" <ajt9nola83 at ...> wrote:
>
> DA Jones:
> 
> <SNIP>
> > It seems to me, that what 'master of death' means is that the
> master
> > of the wand can't be intentionally physically harmed in a manner
> > that might kill him or her in combat (which means it doesn't have
> to
> > be AK) and any spell used with that intent would rebound on the
> > caster. Or in other words the elder wand is like a bullet proof
> vest
> > from which the bullets into the shooter.
> <SNIP>
> 
> 
> I don't know DA Jones, your answer is still a little shaky. Didn't
> Dumbledore tell Snape to kill him even before he ever knew that
> Malfoy was going to disarm him. He mention this to Harry in DH that
> his intent was to make Snape the Master of Death. Also, are you
> saying that anyone who is just holding the wand and not using it is
> protected from death? Can you break it down more clearly, please? I
> thought you had to simply defeat the owner by any means. Remember 
the
> Elder Wand/Death Stick has a bloody past.
> 
> AJT

I'll make a slight adjustment to the theory, in order to clarify my 
thoughts. The master can't be physically (magically) harmed in 
combat 'against his or her wishes' by another 'wand'. 

DD wanted Snape to commit euthanasia. So the wand wouldn't have 
stopped an AK in that case. 

However, I'm not sure wheather the wand would stop physical attacks 
or even poisons or potions. The wands 'bloody history' might be an 
allusion to the fact that its holders have often been phyically 
murdered in the muggle manner. IIRC that was how the original holder 
was defeated. Which is one form of guile.   

However, you are right. DD did want Snape to be the master of death. 

But I'm not sure if he wanted him to be the actual or virtual master 
of death. Did DD actually clearly state that in canon that he 
actually wanted Snape to possess a 'working wand?' 

I'm short my book so I can't check and don't recall. So if he did, I 
withdraw the following  accept as an interesting idea for an AU 
fanfic, I suppose.

If the idea was that he wanted Snape to be an 'actual Master of 
Death; then Snape would have had to actually disarm or defeat DD 
without using an intentional killing curse or harming curse. 

The idea might be if the master stops 'resisting' like Grindelwald 
did DD, he is defeated at that point and that might have been when 
Snape would actually have become the 'master of death'. 

However, since the combat would be faked the wand would know this, 
wouldn't it? So DD wouldn't have been defeated. And thus would die 
as master, de-activating the wand. 

It's possible that in JKR's mind what DD actually wanted was for 
Snape to be a 'virtual' master of death. I.e. Have his 'defeat' by 
Snape be public so it looked like Snape 'inherited the wand'.

Then Snape would appear to lose to Harry. So Snape would have the 
chance to ensure that Voldemort would find out about the powers of 
the wand, and not have his life endangered by Voldemort being afraid 
of Snape's 'masterhood'. However, Snape wouldn't have 'lost to 
Harry'; until Harry's Voldemort bit was erased. Perhaps by Snape 
appearing to kill Harry the first time himself. 

If Voldemort 'believed' Harry was the Master of the wand, than 
Voldemort would've beleived that he had to fight Harry without using 
killing spells, which would haver been to Harry's advantage. Because 
like DD in his duel with Grindelwald, Harry would never have used 
them either. 

I think JKR wanted DD to plan to bring in the psychological effect 
of the wand without having the 'actual wand' coming into play. 

In final canon, however Voldemort actually did come to beleive that 
Snape was the master, and thought that by killing Snape, that he was 
becoming the master. 

Note that because he can't defeat him via wand, Voldemort uses guile 
and non-wand methods to defeat Snape (i.e the snake).   

Therefore, Voldemort had no fear of using killing curses (despite 
the fact that he knew all his horcruxes were gone) against Harry, 
which is the exact opposite to what JKR may have had as DD's 
original plan. And since Harry was the 'actual master' the AK 
rebounded and killed Voldemort. 

As to the related question.
  
Yes, I think someone who is the 'master of the wand' (note that 
doesn't mean they have to be holding the wand) can't be killed by an 
intentional direct wand attack meant to harm, that is against their 
will.  

The loophole here, which DD exploits, is that it allows a master to 
commit suicide or to allow another to perform euthanasia. Although 
perhaps there is a sort of circular logic here that prevents suicide 
but allows ethunasia.

Of couse, DD back-up plan in case all this went wrong, and Snape was 
incapicitated was to let Harry know about the Deathly Hollows, so if 
needed he could act independent of Snape. Which he did. 

This is the most amazing parts of the books, how JKR planned not one 
plan for DD, but 2 or 3. Plans within plans, like a puzzle. 

But sometimes doesn't it appear that she had such a dense plan, that 
she even confused herself? I'm not sure why Harry defeated 
Voldemort. In fact, its presented in the book as it he is not 
entirely sure himself. Or at least that was my impression.  

It had something to do with the wand, it had something to do with 
Lily's blood protection, it had something to do with both the 
Horcrux and the Hollows, it had somethung to do with Harry's own 
sacrifice and it had a whole lot to do with his friends.  

I think the best answer is the one Ginny would give. He's just a 
hero.           

DA Jones