Snape and moral courage WAS: Re: The Houses, Finally

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 184663

Montavilla47:
I'm snipping stuff where we are basically in agreement.

> Montavilla47:
> As for why he took one point from Harry for not helping Neville, I've
> heard various justifications, but they are all speculation and 
> dependent
> on larger theories, so I'll refrain. I imagine, though, that if Harry
> weren't already smarting from being targeted at the beginning of
> class, he'd have gotten over that pretty quick.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> As I said before, to me the proof that there was no underlying reason 
> for Snape to take a point except him being nasty is that in PoA he 
> takes a point from Hermione for helping him. Obviously Snape cannot 
> punish two kids for doing diametrically opposite things if he has 
> some sort of purpose for Neville in mind, don't you think?

Montavilla47:
Unless the circumstances had changed, which I think they did.  
In PS/SS, Snape is making a general point about looking out for
your House mates.  Or he's punishing Harry for showing off.  Take
your pick.

In PoA, Snape is setting up a very specific task for Neville, and he
makes it clear that he wants Neville to do it this time *on his own.*
He tells Hermione, specifically, not to help him.  When she does,
he takes the points.  I don't see that this is just a contradiction
based on him hating Harry.

Especially since it has nothing to do with Harry.


Alla:
> And I really do not care whether Harry would have been gotten over it 
> quick or not, I think it is an abuse of authority at least and just 
> wrong.

Montavilla47:
Hmm.  It's Snape's job to take or give points based on student 
performance and behavior.  He may have been wrong to take 
that point from Harry for not helping Neville.  But I don't think
it was an abuse of his position--any more than a cop would
be abusing his position of authority for giving me a ticket
for a traffic rule I didn't realize was in effect.


> Alla:
> > On the top of my head that includes **not bringing child's dead
> > father in the equation** any time this teacher wants to lecture a
> > child.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Snape didn't do that "any time." He did it on a few specific
> occasions when Harry's behavior struck him as particularly
> James-like.
> 
> Alla:
> I just believe that Snape who is complicit in the Harry not having 
> the father in the first place has no business bringing him up ever, 
> not once.

Montavilla47:
Perhaps, but it was Harry who actually brought James up in 
PoA.  Snape merely corrected Harry about something he felt
Harry misunderstood about their relationship.

A misunderstanding that was created by Dumbledore lying
to Harry about why Snape was protecting him in first year.

> Montavilla47:
> I think that Snape would probably agree with you that Harry's
> welfare came first. I think he might disagree with you about what
> Harry's welfare consisted of. But, are you saying that his protection
> of Harry is canceled out because he didn't treat Harry nicely?
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Not quite no, I am saying that because of Snape's attitude towards 
> Harry he was not the best choice for protector at all in my opinion.

Montavilla47:
Well, you can put that one on Dumbledore, who asked Snape to do
it.  Of course, Dumbledore probably didn't realize that Snape wouldn't
fall in love with lovable Harry.


> Alla:
> 
> See if you phrase it that way, of course my argument sounds 
> ridiculous, but I would not call what Snape did to Harry  just 
> **rude** anymore than I would agree with somebody (do not remember 
> who) once calling Snape a git, as if being a git was his biggest 
> offense. I always believed that Snape abused Harry and Neville or if 
> you wish abused his authority over them, therefore while I do not 
> discount Snape protecting Harry exactly, I do not believe he gets a 
> free reign either because of it.

Montavilla47:
I think we will have to agree to disagree about that, then.  I don't
believe that Snape abused his authority with either Harry or Neville.
He was very hard on both of them, but the only time I think Snape
acted out of bounds was snickering at the lost potion.  

Alla:
> Look it is the same how I feel about Petunia taking Harry in.   Do I 
> think that blood protection per se is a bad thing? Of course not. Do 
> I think sister of his mom should have taken him in, sure, under 
> normal circumstances why not.
> 
> Do I think that Petunia should have taken him in the way she feels 
> about him? NO, not really.
> 
> Snape could not get over how he feels about Harry, therefore I do not 
> believe he should been given any extra tasks of protecting him. 

Montavilla47:
Again, with both Petunia and Snape, this is a position that they put 
into by Dumbledore.  Snape had more choice, perhaps, than Petunia,
but I think that once he made a promise, the idea of breaking that 
promise was unthinkable.

Now, if Dumbledore had made Snape promise to *love* Harry, I 
think it would have been a different matter.  But I guess Dumbledore
does realize that people have limits.

As Pippin said, you can't force someone to love another person.

Alla:
> Because we had been shown several times IMO that even with protecting 
> Harry, Snape always goes about it the wrong way. Good example IMO was 
> Harry's Hogsmead excursion. Was Harry wrong to go? Of course he was. 
> What exactly did Snape's lecture accomplished? Did Harry feel 
> remorse, desire not to do it again? No, he did not. What did Lupin 
> accomplish? IMO he accomplished so much more. Of course it is not 
> like one lecture to teen boy will accomplish everything, but Lupin 
> made Harry feel guilty and Snape, his protector, just antagonized him 
> more.

Montavilla47:
Well, Lupin had more leverage.  He had the goods on Harry, as he knew
what the map was and how to work it.  The reason that Snape's method
didn't work was that Lupin removed Harry from the situation before
Snape was finished.

Alla:
> How about when Harry and Ron arrived with the car in CoS. I am sure 
> Snape wanted them not to do so anymore and his response is to ask for 
> their expulsion?

Montavilla47:
Or scare them.  I don't know if he was that serious about wanting
Harry expelled.  Of course, he might have, like Dobby, gotten some
hints about the plot Lucius was hatching (although I'm sure he would
have passed anything concete along to Dumbledore), and, like 
Dobby, felt that Harry was better off staying home. :)