Snape and moral courage WAS: Re: The Houses, Finally

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 184668

> Leah: Well, I don't agree that Snape was 'merrily abusing' Harry as
> a general rule, though there are occasions when he overstepst the
> mark. 

Alla:

I am not asking you to LOL. We had have long discussions on whether 
Snape is an abuser, abuser of authority, super strict teacher, fair 
teacher or none of the above in the past and nothing made me change 
my mind about Snape being an abuser. Knowing how many people are 
tired of the dreaded A word, I am trying unless I do not consider it 
very relevant not to bring it up often. So when I do bring it up, I 
am extra careful to stress it even more than usual that it is my 
opinion only.

Leah:
As to fulfilling Dumbledore's plan, Snape's problem is that
> Dumbledore only provides him with selective information. At the
> time Dumbledore is giving Snape information that leads Snape to 
> conclude that Harry must die, Dumbledore
> is very carefully avoiding any eye contact with Leglimens!Snape,
> which has to signal that Dumbledore is up to something or knows
> something more than he is saying.

Alla:

So you seem to be arguing that when Snape is getting all shocked 
about Harry being raised as pig for slaughter in reality he knows 
that it is a ruse and Harry in fact is not going to die? I am sorry, 
but how do you arrive at the conclusion that if Dumbledore avoids eye 
contact with Snape that means that Dumbledore's words have the 
opposite meaning from what Snape hears?

I see no such indication in the text. Dumbledore can be avoiding eye 
contact simply because he does not think Voldemort needs to know the 
details of the plan of how to sacrifice Harry, or because he does not 
want Snape to know what he ate for breakfast, meaning he is keeping 
another secret from Snape which is totally irrelevant to that 
discussion.

IMO of course.

Leah:
>Snape knows there is some plan
> involving the Sword of Gryffindor when he takes it to Harry, but
> Dumbledore won't tell him what it is. If Snape tries to prevent
> Harry being sent 'like a pig to slaughter', then he is in danger of
> wrecking Dumbledore's hidden plans (which do eventually save Harry,
> thanks to Snape's self-sacrifice, Harry's bravery and sheer luck).
> He is also not in an easy position to communicate anything to Harry
> who regards him as Dumbledore's murderer. He presumably concludes
> that the best he can do is carry out Dumbledore's instructions until
> he learns more (which he never does). 

Alla:

Well, of course he decides to carry out Dumbledore's plan which is 
what I was saying in my response to Potioncat. My point is that 
deciding to carry out Dumbledore's plan is in exact contradiction 
with protecting Harry's life as far as Snape knows and I am not 
convinced at all that Snape knows anything else besides what 
Dumbledore is telling him. Where do you see in the text that Snape 
decides to carry it out only till he learns more?

Leah:
>Frankly, I think it requires a
> major suspension of disbelief that Darks Art expert Snape never
> works out horcruxes, but that's just one of many suspensions of
> disbelief in DH, IMO.

Alla:

Agreed on that.


>> Leah: You are looking at the Snape/Harry protective relationship aa
> if Dumbledore had asked Snape to mentor Harry, or act as a parental
> figure towards him, and you are also treating it as part and parcel 
> of Snape's interactions with Harry as a teacher. Dumbledore didn't 
> ask this and the teaching role is a separate problem. In 
> the 'precisely his mother's eyes' scene in 'The Prince's Tale', 
> Dumbledore tells Snape that Voldemort will return and Harry will 
> need protection from him. That's all! that Dumbledore requires of 
> Snape. Snape is the right person for this job because:
<SNIP>

Alla:

Well, of course I am treating it as part and parcel of Snape's 
interactions with Harry as a teacher. Because **it is** part and 
parcel of that IMO. Dumbledore does not ask somebody from outside to 
protect Harry, he is asking his teacher to do so and I just do not 
see how one can treat it separately.


Leah: 
> (i) He will stick to it whatever the danger he is in and regardless
> of any scorn directed at him. <SNIP>

Alla:

Sirius is as well as you said, Dumbledore is as well, although after 
book 7 I really hesitate to suggest Dumbledore as Harry's protector 
LOL.

Leah:
 (ii) He is an expert in DADA. We don't see anyone else with the same
> abilities as Snape, and this is made clear in HBP and in 'The
> Prince's Tale'. He, not Dumbledore, not Lupin or Poppy saves Katie
> Bell's life.<SNIP>

Alla:

Lupin in many parts thanks to Snape is not at school. I disagree that 
his abilities as DADA expert are in any way less than Snape's even 
though we did not see him saving anyone in this book.


> (iii) As a marked Death Eater and superb Occlumens, Snape is the
> only one who can find out Voldemort's plans, and feed him false
> information. Not only does he have the right skills, Dumbledore
> tells Snape he is the only one he would trust to do this.

Alla:

Lupin spied at werewolves, something tells me that he would manage 
with Voldemort too, but really, we just do not see other spies IMO.


Leah:
> (iv) He is on hand at Hogwarts to keep an eye on Harry.<SNIP>

Alla:

Just as all other teachers are.

Leah:
> As to
> Snape and Lupin's own handling of Harry in the instance you mention,
> part of Snape's feelings towards Harry must stem from the fact that
> in endangering himself, Harry is putting Lily's sacrifice at naught,
> but Snape's own culpability and guilt stop him using this
> to 'control' Harry. Lupin does not have this problem.

Alla:

Really? Lupin was one of their closest friends and he supposedly does 
not have this problem? I disagree.

Leah:
>Actually, I
> would rather someone just told me off for wrong doing rather than
> guilt tripping me over my dead parents, but that's just me, though 
it
> works (but only very temporarily) on Harry.

Alla:

It worked in this instance, so it is good enough for me. But yes, I 
think what matters is what works on Harry and Snape IMO displays 
through the books over and over that he has no idea what works for 
Harry to improve his behavior. 

Dumbledore who does not even teach Harry knows that guilt works 
perfectly well too, when he scolds Harry over not getting the memory 
from Slughorn and Snape is as he always was clueless IMO.


Leah:
<SNIP>
> So Dumbledore has in effect hired Snape as Harry's bodyguard. That 
> is entirely separate from his teaching role and its requirements. 
> Protecting Harry from Voldemort just requires Snape to be loyal to 
> his task, which he is to the point of death. It does not require 
him 
> to be fair to, love or even to like Harry. There are, as you point 
> out, others that can fulfill this role, like Minerva, Molly, Arthur 
> and Lupin. It doesn't even particularly need interaction between 
> Snape and Harry (it is Snape who to some extent tries to extend the 
> role into a mentoring one). Protecting Harry is not the same as
> parenting him.


Alla:

Except when Dumbledore hired him as Harry's bodyguard, he did not 
fire him from the role of Harry's teacher, therefore no, I do not 
believe it could be treated separately and if I accept your 
requirements for the role of Harry's bodyguard, role of Harry's 
teacher seems to me to be in huge conflict of interest.

JMO,

Alla
> 
> 
> Leah
>