Snape and moral courage WAS: Re: The Houses, Finally

[lealess]

No: HPFGUIDX 184683

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "littleleahstill"
<leahstill at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie" <> So there's 
> definitely a little switcheroo going on here with Snape. 
> > He originally agreed to protect Harry's physical life because Lily 
> > would want Harry alive and well. This is not the same as 
> > safeguarding Harry until the best time for him to be killed. 
> > The first scenario is what Snape takes
> > to be Lily's wishes; the second is Dumbledore's wishes.
> > Snape could have chosen to defy Dumbledore but didn't. Would 
> > Lily have made the same choice? Quite possibly not. Snape's 
> > motivation regarding Harry was originally that Lily would want 
> > him personally protected and not that Lily would want Voldemort 
> > defeated. I mean, of course Lily *did* want Voldemort defeated, 
> > but Dumbledore is switching around
> > the priorities. Lily would presumably have died
> > thinking that Harry's safety was one of her reasons for wanting 
> > Voldemort defeated. He changes it Harry's death being a necessary 
> > sacrifice for Voldemort's defeat. Dumbledore merely used Lily's 
> > desire to protect Harry to suck Snape in and after that replaced 
> > that with his own agenda.
> > 
> 
> Leah:  Yes,this is quite right, and I remember being surprised 
> in 'The Prince's Tale' when we skipped from "Always" to Snape going 
> along with Dumbledore's plan.  I wanted a scene in between looking 
> at what Snape was thinking, because the switch didn't make that much 
> sense.  I also think a story line in which Snape didn't go along 
> with Dumbledore's plan but had to work with Harry to find an 
> alternative would have been quite interesting but obviously not what 
> JKR wanted to tell us.
> 
> The logic gap is why I suggested that Snape had just enough 
> information and knowledge of Dumbledore to think the old whatsit was 
> up to something, and that Snape had better not interfere in it. That 
> way he could still hope that he was still protecting Harry in some 
> unknown way.
> 
> Equally, he could have just concluded as Pippin said, that saving 
> the wizarding world from Voldemort was more important than saving 
> Harry's life by eg. changing his memory and sending him off to 
> Australia.  Snape got quite a lot of stick after DH for leaving 
> Voldemort because of Lily rather than because of any moral epiphany, 
> so had he stuck to his task of physically protecting Harry and let 
> the rest of the world go hang under Voldemort's rule, I do think he 
> would certainly have been accused of lacking moral courage. 
> 
> The other thought is that perhaps Horcrux!Harry could not be 
> protected except in the short-term.  Voldemort could not die while 
> the scar horcrux remained and if he ruled and increased in power, 
> perhaps his hold over the scar horcrux would increase.  Even if 
> Voldemort were to be disabled in some way, for example by having a 
> Dementor suck his own soul piece, it might be that the soul piece in 
> Harry would gain in power, (a bit like the power of the diary soul 
> over Ginny).  Pure speculation of course, but the Prophecy did say 
> that neither could 'live' while the other survived. 
> 
> As to Lily's reaction, I rather hope that she would have wanted her 
> child to live - suicide cheerleader Lily was very off putting IMO. 
> 
> Leah
>

I find this discussion absolutely fascinating.  Snape promised
Dumbledore "anything" and subsequently reaffirmed his commitment to
keep Lily's son safe, then turned his back on the "safe" part of the
promise when he took in the information that Harry had to die.  He
told Dumbledore he only watched those die whom he could not save.

Is the Greater Good of the books accepting and even planning for harm
to come to the least in order to benefit the most?

If so, how would Snape have arrived at accepting that -- through the
mere act of following Dumbledore's orders, even knowing he'd been
misled and was still not receiving the entire truth from Dumbledore? 
It seems so unlike the once-skeptical Snape.  Was the alternative,
Voldemort triumphant, so horrible that Snape went along with the only
plan on offer, even if, as far as he was probably aware, only
Dumbledore knew the plan and wasn't sharing it?

Harry, like Snape, received incomplete information from Dumbledore,
yet Harry did exactly what Snape did.  He accepted the need to
sacrifice for Dumbledore's plan, and he did so without seeming to
think about it much, the motivation being... wanting to protect the
many, faith in Dumbledore, love of a kind... ?

Even with Dumbledore's emotional manipulation, both Harry and Snape
had a choice.  They chose to follow Dumbledore, whose Greater Good
included the choice to sacrifice their lives and, in Snape's case, the
choice to perhaps sacrifice his soul.

Anyway, fascinating discussion, from which I am trying to piece
together the HP worldview.

lealess