From catlady at wicca.net Mon Sep 1 02:27:52 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 02:27:52 -0000 Subject: psychopath / Kingsley / education for wizarding students Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184223 Pippin wrote in ; << How do you see being unable to feel remorse or connection to others as forcing Voldemort to become a murderer? Voldemort gained nothing by killing that he could not have achieved by other means, except the pleasure of killing itself, and he could have got that by killing animals, as his uncle Morfin did. >> It didn't force LV to become a murderer, but it prevented him from noticing or comprehending that murder is evil, thus being a reason other than risk of getting caught and being punished for sublimating on poor animals. Being unable to feel or care how his victims might feel about being murdered and how their survivors might feel about it, how would he know it was evil? Sarah wrote in : << What I always wanted to know is how Kingsley was able to handle a high level desk job so efficiently. He used the word "firelegs" a year earlier, and now he suddenly knows Windows 95? >> Carol replied in : << I always thought that Kingsley was using "firelegs" on purpose as part of his pretense that he and Arthur aren't on intimate terms. It gives Arthur the chance to publicly correct him (in the next breath whispering that Molly is making meatballs and inviting Kingsley to dinner). >> I kind of agree with Carol. I figure Kingsley knew not only the word 'firearms', but more than I do about how they work, but said 'firelegs' deliberately because even when Fudge was Minster, it was not good for one's Ministry career to show too much knowledge of Muggles around one's fellow Ministry employees. Carol wrote in : << even a magically forged grade report from an accredited high school wouldn't help that student to pass the entrance exams or the university classes once she got in. I suppose she could study for the university courses at the same time she studied for her NEWTS (assuming that she wasn't taking as many courses as Hermione), but Hogwarts itself certainly provides inadequate preparation for university-level classes in literature, foreign languages, math, the sciences, and Muggle history, to name only those subjects that come immediately to my mind. >> I suppose such a student would finish at Hogwrts and only then start studying the Muggle university pre-requisite subjects. I expect they would want to study independently, with correspondence classses, or with tutors, at least until University level, but if one wanted to go to Muggle secondary school, a magically forged birth certificate and an Illusion of looking younger should make that possible. I can imagine a student wanting to join a good Muggle Sixth Form to prepare for A-levels, after having passed GCSEs via 'home schooling'. I can also imagine students not wanting to join Muggle eductional institutions until grad school, so they would study independently at university undergrad level and show up with a magically forged decree from a foreign university. They might be able to get stipends to live on, and scholarships for the tuitions, from the few well-placed wizards (such as DD while he was alive) who believe that the wizarding community needs better contact with Muggles. Bruce Alan Wilson wrote in : << According to JKR, most Wizardling children are homeschooled. >> I like to think that wizarding 'home schooling' includes several families getting together to hire a tutor to teach their children together, and some witches operating small schools, in their homes or elsewhere, that accept fee-paying pupils. From carylcb at hotmail.com Mon Sep 1 02:28:21 2008 From: carylcb at hotmail.com (clcb58) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 02:28:21 -0000 Subject: HP Lexicon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184224 Has anyone else noticed that the HP Lexicon is down? Is it gone for good or is it just a server glitch? From scarah at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 03:23:41 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 03:23:41 -0000 Subject: Is There Alternating Current in Harry's World? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184225 > "Sarah: > I'm not the best person to give a "real world" answer to this, but > they're 11, not 12, and I think that's when they'd be going on to > secondary school anyway. We see in the books that Dudley is going on > to Smeltings the same year Harry is going to Hogwarts." > Bruce: > According to JKR, most Wizardling children are homeschooled. Sarah: If I remember correctly, the original question was about Muggle-born students and how the records account for them when they suddenly leave Muggle school at 11. My point was that I don't believe anyone tracks it too carefully, since I'm given to understand everyone would be changing schools at that age anyway. From scarah at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 03:29:33 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 03:29:33 -0000 Subject: HP Lexicon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184226 wrote: > Has anyone else noticed that the HP Lexicon is down? Is it gone for > good or is it just a server glitch? Sarah: I'd reply off list but I can't seem to get your address. There are DNS issues but it can be used at http://69.61.53.28/index-2.html for now. Updates can be found at http://hp-lexicon.livejournal.com/ From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Sep 1 06:34:50 2008 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 06:34:50 -0000 Subject: Letters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184228 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ruth" wrote: > > In message > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/20884 > rowanbrookt@ wrote: > > > Would it have come on my 11th birthday (the 16th of > > > October) and then I would wait until September the > > > next year before I went to Hogwarts. Or would the > > > letter arrive in the summer just before September. Ruth: > In most English schools the cut off date is August 31st, > any student entering 1st year would have to be 11 by > August 31st or sometime in late August at any rate. Geoff: The 31st is the /mandatory/ cut-off date. So, in modern terminology, as you say, a student will have to be 11 by that date to enter Year 7 (the old First Year). From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Sep 1 06:41:03 2008 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 06:41:03 -0000 Subject: Is There Alternating Current in Harry's World? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184229 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tommy_m_riddle" wrote: > > > "Sarah: > > I'm not the best person to give a "real world" answer to this, but > > they're 11, not 12, and I think that's when they'd be going on to > > secondary school anyway. We see in the books that Dudley is going > on > > to Smeltings the same year Harry is going to Hogwarts." > > > > Bruce: > > According to JKR, most Wizardling children are homeschooled. > > > Sarah: > If I remember correctly, the original question was about Muggle-born > students and how the records account for them when they suddenly > leave Muggle school at 11. My point was that I don't believe anyone > tracks it too carefully, since I'm given to understand everyone would > be changing schools at that age anyway. Geoff: This depends on the school structure in the LEA (Local Education Authority). Pupils can change to the Secondary School/Community College/High School* at 11, 12 or 13. In each case, as I said in a parallel post, the age is that of the pupil on the relevant 31st August. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Sep 2 11:38:28 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:38:28 -0000 Subject: Letters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184230 > In message 20884 > rowanbrookt@ wrote: > > > Would it have come on my 11th birthday (the 16th of > > > October) and then I would wait until September the > > > next year before I went to Hogwarts. Or would the > > > letter arrive in the summer just before September. > >Ruth answered: > In most English schools the cut off date is August 31st, > any student entering 1st year would have to be 11 by > August 31st or sometime in late August at any rate. Potioncat: It looks like Ruth has been wandering around in the Chamber of Ancient Posts. Lots of interesting stuff in there. Rowanbrookt--no longer around, I think--was asking when the letter came. There was a time when some fans thought the letter came on the student's 11th birthday--whenever the birthday was. I think it was because Harry's first letter was delivered (finally) on his birthday. The letters are sent in the summer, shortly before school starts. We see that in CoS when all the Weasleys get their letters. Come to think of it, no one made any fuss about Ginny's welcoming letter to Hogwarts. I'll bet they don't have any photos of her as a baby either! From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Sep 2 12:03:10 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 12:03:10 -0000 Subject: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184231 > Sarah: > I don't see a mistake here. The reason is that it's an ongoing theme > that Harry disagrees with pretty much everything Snape has to say on > the subject of Defence. Potioncat: You're right. Harry wouldn't agree with Snape if Snape said the rain was wet. The error is that the information Snape gave does not agree with the information in the text book "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them." I'm not sure if Kappas are real and do come from Japan, and the issue is that JKR made a mistake by having Snape say it. Or if she always intended for him to be wrong. I think she found out there was a mistake, and decided to have it be Snape's error. She has Ron and Harry catch the mistake and make note of it in the text. It's one of those moments we can all identify with---the teacher who does know it all, and who is mean, making a mistake. I don't mind his making the error, I doubt that Snape would concern himself with wee dark beasties. >Sarah: > In HBP, Harry disagrees with Snape on how to defend against > dementors. Like Harry, I had not realized there was even more than > one possible strategy. > > In OOTP, Harry never does manage to learn Occlumency, not that he > tried very hard. But Snape did not really explain very well what to > do in a manner that either Harry or I could understand. Potioncat: Oh, we have lots of ideas about the other ways to defend against dementors. Does Snape know a better way or does he want to avoid showing his Protonus? Of course, Lupin teaches Expecto Patronum without showing his. I wouldn't be surprised if Snape's way is better. But we'll never know now. As for Occlumency...no, I'd better not go there. Potioncat, who doesn't mean that she thinks Kappas are really real, and also doesn't know if they are wee beasties or great horrible things. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 13:52:06 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 13:52:06 -0000 Subject: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184232 > Potioncat: It's one of > those moments we can all identify with---the teacher who does know it > all, and who is mean, making a mistake. > > I don't mind his making the error, I doubt that Snape would concern > himself with wee dark beasties. > Alla: Thank you dear! I thought it was a brilliant characterisation not only because as you said it is a mean teacher, who is making a mistake, but also because I always like when Snape's arrogance gets a strong kick. Snape, who is oh so very quick to punish kids for smallest mistakes turns out to make them himself. And I also think that it is also a hint that Snape really cannot teach DADA in the peaceful times, if that makes sense. Oh he knows his curses and countercurses. But beasts, something that kids may have to know when Voldemort is not around? Not so much. He is OMG not a perfect teacher. JMO, Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 15:23:58 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 15:23:58 -0000 Subject: Letters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184233 Potioncat wrote: > There was a time when some fans thought the letter came on the student's 11th birthday--whenever the birthday was. I think it was because Harry's first letter was delivered (finally) on his birthday. The letters are sent in the summer, shortly before school starts. We see that in CoS when all the Weasleys get their letters. Carol responds: I'm not sure because I don't have time to check the first six books, or rather, CoS through HBP, but I don't think that the letters necessarily arrive in early summer (July). In some books, IIRC, the school year has almost started before they receive their letters. It seems to me that the date they receive the letter depends on when the new teachers, chiefly the DADA teachers, are hired and select their books. The permanent staff rarely change the books that they assign, though Flitwick assigns a different version of the same book for each grade level; McGonagall's Transfiguration book comes in Beginner's, Intermediate, and Advanced versions; and most teachers apparently have a different book for their NEWT students than for the younger ones. These elements, like the list of supplies for first-years and the welcome letter itself, would be standard every year. But each new DADA teacher, and there's a new one every year, assigns a different book or books, and other staffing changes (e.g., Hagrid as CoMC teacher) would also necessitate changes. If the DADA teacher and other new staff members are hired early, the welcome letter and accompanying booklist can be sent out in July, but in problem years (OoP and HBP, for example) when the hiring of the DADA teacher is delayed (or complicated by the new Potions master's procrastination), the letters arrive very late. Carol, apologizing for piling on details for such a minor matter From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Sep 2 15:25:47 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 15:25:47 -0000 Subject: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184234 > Alla: > > Thank you dear! > > I thought it was a brilliant characterisation not only because as you > said it is a mean teacher, who is making a mistake, but also because I > always like when Snape's arrogance gets a strong kick. Potioncat: But he never knows, so where's the kick? I doubt he double checked when he went back to his office. Now, maybe a few years later, when he was preparing the first years' class... (That is, the DADA class for the first years.) >Alla: > And I also think that it is also a hint that Snape really cannot teach > DADA in the peaceful times, if that makes sense. Oh he knows his curses > and countercurses. But beasts, something that kids may have to know > when Voldemort is not around? Not so much. Potioncat: No surpise that I don't agree. I think that had he been the DADA teacher he would have known the material. He wasn't there to teach the class plan anyway. He was there for his own agenda. He fully expected Hermione to pick up on Lupin's problem and tell Harry. He was just being a little too full of himself. I think it became JKR's little joke -- especially if she had made the "same" mistake. That's why I referred to him as teacher who does know it all, not a know-it-all teacher. There's a big difference. > Alla: > He is OMG not a perfect teacher. Potioncat: No he isn't. But who is? ;-) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 15:57:41 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 15:57:41 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184235 > Potioncat: > But he never knows, so where's the kick? I doubt he double checked > when he went back to his office. Now, maybe a few years later, when > he was preparing the first years' class... (That is, the DADA class > for the first years.) Alla: The kick IMO is for the reader of course in this situation. I am pleased that Snape is looking silly in all this more than anybody else IMO, whether he knows of it or not. He already got his dues for that class, as far as I am concerned - old lady in the dress, so I just get to enjoy him looking silly, even if without character knowing. > Potioncat: > No surpise that I don't agree. I think that had he been the DADA > teacher he would have known the material. He wasn't there to teach > the class plan anyway. He was there for his own agenda. He fully > expected Hermione to pick up on Lupin's problem and tell Harry. > > He was just being a little too full of himself. I think it became > JKR's little joke -- especially if she had made the "same" mistake. Alla: Does it matter though for that reason he did not know? What I am trying to say is that you think that he did not know because he was being too full of himself, right? I think he did not know, just because he did not know. The point we agree on is that he was wrong, right? So any interpetation can be valid - yours or mine and none can be disproved. Potioncat: > That's why I referred to him as teacher who does know it all, not a > know-it-all teacher. There's a big difference. Alla: I see no difference ;) > > Alla: > > He is OMG not a perfect teacher. > > Potioncat: > No he isn't. But who is? ;-) > Alla: Nobody, I will just dispute the claim that he is. I've seen the attempts to put him on pedestal as teacher who never makes mistakes way too often, so I just disagree. There are no perfect teachers in Hogwarts as far as I am concerned. Even my favorites Minerva and Lupin made mistakes, but that does not mean that Snape gets to be near them in my mind as a good teacher. Minerva was being an **sshole to Neville several times and I am not happy with her for that. Lupin was? Come to think of it, I do not know what mistakes Lupin made as a teacher. So, yeah he is as far as I am concerned as **teacher**, not person of course comes very close to perfection. Oh yes, he did not take his potion, but that I do not consider to be teaching mistake, more like personal one. :-) JMO, A;;a From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 16:42:09 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 16:42:09 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184236 Alla: > > Does it matter though for that reason he did not know? What I am trying to say is that you think that he did not know because he was being too full of himself, right? I think he did not know, just because he did not know. The point we agree on is that he was wrong, right? So any interpetation can be valid - yours or mine and none can be disproved. Carol responds: I'm not Potioncat, of course, but my understanding is that Potioncat *doesn't* think that Snape was wrong. Her earlier post indicated that she thinks (as I do) that the mistake was JKR's (she didn't realize when she wrote that bit of dialogue that Kappas are a Japanese magical creature, not a Mongolian one) and she covered up her own blunder by making it Snape's--pointlessly, because the mistake is never revealed in the actual series. Here's what Potioncat actually wrote, in case my paraphrase doesn't reflect her views: " I think she found out there was a mistake, and decided to have it be Snape's error. She has Ron and Harry catch the mistake and make note of it in the text. It's one of those moments we can all identify with---the teacher who does know it all, and who is mean, making a mistake." IOW, if I'm reading it correctly, Potioncat thinks that *JKR* made the error when she wrote Snape's little speech in PoA and repaired it by having Ron and Harry catch "Snape's" mistake in FB. I think that JKR (who rarely admits her own mistakes and always finds an explanation, plausible or otherwise, invented this particular coverup mischievously (not viciously!), with a twinkle in her eye, getting the same kind of enjoyment out of it that you're getting and at the same time getting herself off the hook. Readers like me, however, don't get the same enjoyment. All we get is a moment of annoyance as JKR cleverly retrieves her own credibility at the expense of Snape's. Surely, if JKR had intended for Snape to be wrong in the first place, she would have had the characters find out about it in PoA. Instead, his supposed blunder only shows up as graffiti in FB, calling attention to the inconsistency between Snape's statement and the information in FB, but passing off JKR's error (perhaps pointed out to her by people who actually know about mythological creatures) as Snape's. (If it had been Lupin who made the statement, she might have found some other way to deal with it.) At any rate, the FB note has no bearing on PoA or the HP books except that it damages Snape's otherwise impeccable DADA credentials--an unfortunate move since he *has* to be an expert for the Snape subplot in HBP and DH to work. "His" mistake is completely pointless except that it provides Harry, Ron, and like-minded readers who happen to read FB (not at all necessary for HP fans) with a bit of humor at Snape's expense. True, they do the same with Hagrid, but with more cause--and not as a coverup. Essentially, I think that the chief difference between Potioncat's position and mine is that she finds JKR's cover-up tactic amusing and I find it annoying. Clever, though. I'll give her that. Carol, hoping that she's presented Potioncat's position correctly and apologizing if she hasn't From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 20:27:33 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 20:27:33 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184237 Carol: Surely, if JKR had intended for Snape to be wrong in the first place, she would have had the characters find out about it in PoA. Instead, his supposed blunder only shows up as graffiti in FB, calling attention to the inconsistency between Snape's statement and the information in FB, but passing off JKR's error (perhaps pointed out to her by people who actually know about mythological creatures) as Snape's. (If it had been Lupin who made the statement, she might have found some other way to deal with it.) Alla: Really? Why? It is not crucial to the plot, it just a clever attack on Snape's arrogance as far as I am concerned, it has nothing to do with major plot lines of PoA. School books are canon though, it is something that author wrote as a supplement to the books. Of course it is not necessary to read them and understand what books are all about, but there are a lot of extra information about beasties which is available only in FB and sometimes it highlights something in the main books, is it not? I consider this bit to be just a little of extra high light of what I consider to be a very consistent characterization of Snape. And I have no doubt that if Lupin made this blunder, she would have dealt with it differently. She after all loves Lupin as a teacher and would want him and not any other character to teach her daughter. So I have no problem believing that she would not want to humiliate him further. On the other hand, I also have no trouble believing that since Lupin has a sense of humor if he made this mistake, JKR could have easily made him remember it and admit it and laugh at it with the class. Snape admitting his mistake? Even if he went and checked after class. Snape never ever admits his mistakes, so I totally see how he would never admit it. I mean, to come and say that he was wrong in front of those **dunderheads**. It would be beneath dear Severus, IMO. JMO, Alla From leahstill at hotmail.com Tue Sep 2 21:19:54 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:19:54 -0000 Subject: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184238 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" > I'm sure she had fun in doing so. > Unfortunately, having Snape "correct" a student by providing incorrect > information undermines Snape's credibility as a DADA authority (at > least for those who read FB), yet he does turn out to be a Dark Arts > expert later in the books. (We can argue that minor Dark creatures > aren't his forte, they're Lupin's, but that doesn't undo the damage to > his credibility in my view.) ' Leah: >From the Wikipedia entry on Kappas: 'Kappa ...... are sometimes even said to smell like fish, and they can certainly swim like them. The expression kappa-no-kawa-nagare ("a kappa drowning in a river") conveys the idea that even experts make mistakes.' Who knows whether JKR is aware of this, but if she is, perhaps Snape's mistake is a typically backhanded compliment to her DADA expert. Leah From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Sep 2 21:59:51 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:59:51 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184239 Carol: > Surely, if JKR had intended for Snape to be wrong in the first place,she would have had the characters find out about it in PoA. Pippin: That seems a rather fusty aesthetic for a popular entertainment in the multi-media age. People expect to find tie-ins, "Easter Eggs" and "extras" on websites and DVD's, why not in books? JKR said she'd always had a desire to write "Fantastic Beasts", even before she was asked to create something for Comic Relief, so I could believe that she started saving some information for it as early as PoA. She had become a best-selling author by then, and could pretty much assure herself that anything she wrote as a Harry Potter tie-in would be published. But as for whether it's in character for Snape to make such a blunder, surely you've noticed he has a tendency to be overconfident where Lupin is concerned? It wouldn't be the first time, or the last, that he got in over his head. Having felt no need to refresh his memory of the third year DADA syllabus, especially since he intended to discuss werewolves in any case, perhaps he hadn't spared a thought for Kappas since he finished revising for his NEWTS, some twenty years previous. It's not like Voldemort is likely to be importing them. I admit, overconfidence as an explanation of Snape's blunder works equally well for JKR. But AFAWK, Snape has no reason to make mention of Mongolia particularly, and JKR does -- it's a funny name, like St Mungo's. In any case, it's a bit silly to contend that JKR wouldn't know where Kappas are actually said to live, since she went to the trouble of researching them in the first place. She could have invented an explanation that would make Snape look good, simply by using FB to establish that in her world, there *are* Kappas in Mongolia. (BTW, the Kappa legend could have orginated in mainland Asia. So maybe Snape was right! http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/kappa.shtml)) But having scorched Harry for being unprepared on *his* first day of class, and having further twitted Lupin for his lack of organization, it was inevitable that Snape would reveal some similar inadequacy of his own. That's JKR's style all over. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Sep 3 00:10:26 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 00:10:26 -0000 Subject: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184240 > Potioncat: > But he never knows, so where's the kick? I doubt he double checked > when he went back to his office. Now, maybe a few years later, when > he was preparing the first years' class... (That is, the DADA class > for the first years.) Pippin: The interesting thing about humans is that we can learn from *other* people's mistakes. Snape is never going to learn not to be arrogant. But we can see the consequences of his arrogance even though he never does. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Sep 3 00:33:50 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 00:33:50 -0000 Subject: psychopath / Kingsley / education for wizarding students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184241 Catlady: > > It didn't force LV to become a murderer, but it prevented him from > noticing or comprehending that murder is evil, thus being a reason > other than risk of getting caught and being punished for sublimating > on poor animals. Being unable to feel or care how his victims might > feel about being murdered and how their survivors might feel about it, how would he know it was evil? Pippin: He may not know what evil is, but he knows what's bad. He tells Dumbledore that he can make "bad things" happen to people if he wants to. Riddle doesn't feel moral revulsion at doing bad things, nor moral well-being when he does good ones, but he knows which is which, doubtless from observing other people's reactions. If he'd spent his earliest years among people who were able to detect and punish his wrongdoing, he might have internalized his fear of punishment as he internalized his fear of death. He'd still have been a dangerous man, but he might not have embarked on a career of wholesale killing that was certain to turn most of wizarding kind against him. BTW, his wickedness cannot entirely be attributed to a defect in his brain or his blood, since he continued to be wicked when he was reduced to a brainless, bloodless, bodiless vapor. > Carol wrote in > : > Hogwarts itself certainly provides inadequate preparation for > university-level classes in literature, foreign languages, math, the > sciences, and Muggle history, to name only those subjects that come > immediately to my mind. >> Pippin: Since Harry never took Muggle studies, we don't know what's covered in that course. Arthur certainly doesn't inspire much confidence, but it may be that eventually, under Dumbledore's headmastership, the subject was taken, and taught, more seriously. Pippin From scarah at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 00:56:08 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 00:56:08 -0000 Subject: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184242 potioncat wrote: > The error is that the information Snape gave does not agree with the > information in the text book "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find > Them." Sarah: I know, but how are we sure that's an error? Snape disagreed with the book. He disagreed with some things in Advanced Potions too, and his way turned out to be better. potioncat: > I'm not sure if Kappas are real and do come from Japan, and the issue > is that JKR made a mistake by having Snape say it. Or if she always > intended for him to be wrong. Sarah: They are a real *myth* :) They do come from Japan. At least in Muggle mythology. I just don't think Snape disagreeing with the book is necessarily either his mistake or an authorial mistake. Snape disagreeing with textbooks is a plot point and ongoing characterization, and he's been right before. They could also both be right somehow, like maybe Snape believes Kappas were introduced to Japan from Mongolia in an invasion or something. > Potioncat, who doesn't mean that she thinks Kappas are really real, > and also doesn't know if they are wee beasties or great horrible > things. Sarah: I think they are kind of small. They look like monkeys with fish scales. They drink human blood but would prefer cucumbers for some reason. (Thus the cucumber roll, kappamaki, was named in their honor.) They are polite like hippogriffs, to their detriment, because their heads are bowl shaped and full of magic strength water and when you bow to them they have to bow back, and it all runs out. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 01:09:35 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 01:09:35 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH28, THE MISSING MIRROR Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184243 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist (to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space) HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- Alla: Guys I must enter the same plea that I did last time. This is another emergency substitution chapter, so please do not judge too harshly. It was done in a really short period of time. Many thanks to Gavin, Mike and Zara for their help. You guys are all awesome. CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Chapter 28, The Missing Mirror Harry, Ron and Hermione apparate to Hogsmeade. While they do that, Harry remembers him apparating to same place, while supporting a weak Albus Dumbledore. Suddenly door at Three Broomsticks burst open; Trio hears screaming and sees Death Eaters coming out with wands at the ready. Harry realizes that Death Eaters were ready for them and that he and his friends are now trapped and cannot dissapparate away. Apparently Death Eaters performed their charms well. DEs are sure that Harry is here and unsuccessfully attempt to accio his cloak. Then they decide that since Dark Lord only wants Harry's life and not his soul it will be easier to kill Harry if Dementors get first bite. Lo and behold Dementors appear. Harry decides that no matter what he will not be kissed and performs his Patronus. Dementors are driven away, but the Death Eaters are now absolutely sure that Harry is here, they recognized his Patronus. Hooded dudes AKA Death Eaters getting closer to where Trio is standing and Harry starts to panic. Suddenly one of the building's doors is opened and Harry and his friends are invited in. It turns out that Harry and his friends are saved by the Barman of Hog's Head, who is also Aberforth Dumbledore. While Trio is still under cloak they witness a conversation that Aberforth is having with Voldie's merry followers. Aberforth tells them that he sent Patronus after Dementors and basically convinces Death Eaters after little visual demonstration that what they saw was his Goat Patronus and not a stag. After threatening Aberforth, Death Eaters leave. We learn that Aberforth also sent Dobby to help Trio and he appears to be upset by elf's death. Ron is also wondering whether Aberforth sent Doe to help them with the sword and Aberforth responds with what I personally consider to be one of the best lines in the book. "Son, with brains like this you can be a Death Eater". So we firmly establish that Aberforth's patronus is a goat, not a doe, not a stag, **goat**. Aberforth feeds hungry Trio and tries to convince them and especially Harry that he should leave and save himself and his friends. Aberforth tells Harry that the job that Albus left him is too dangerous; Aberforth wonders whether Harry is sure that his brother told him everything he needed to know to successfully finish Voldemort's destruction. Aberforth is not successful in his persuasion. Harry is not sure that he was told everything but he made the decision when he was digging Dobby's grave that he was going to put all his doubts aside and simply to trust in the path that Albus laid out for him. Aberforth tells Harry that Albus learned secrecy on his mother's knee and also tells Trio his version of the Ariana's chapter from Dumbledores' family history. In this version Ariana became very ill after three Muggle boys attacked her. Their father went after the boys, attacked them and did time in Azkaban for that. According to Aberforth, shortly after Ariana got sick they moved their house to keep Ariana's condition a secret from the Ministry. Their mother Kendra was taking care of Ariana, but one of Ariana's outbursts accidentally killed their mother and Albus who was one of the best and brightest students had to leave school and come home and take care of their family. Aberforth tells Trio that he could calm Ariana the best and that he was her favorite. He wanted to quit school and care for Ariana, but Albus insisted that he should finish his education. Aberforth grudgingly admits that Albus did okay caring for Ariana for a few weeks till Grindelwald came along and then according to Aberforth the only thing Albus was thinking about is Grindelwald and plans of world domination and Ariana was not fitting into those plans very well. According to Aberforth when he came home on vacation he confronted Albus about his neglect of their sister and about their plans. Confrontation became a duel, younger Dumbledore suffered Cruciatus from Grindelwald's hand, Ariana supposedly wanted to help, but instead she ended up dead from one of their curses and he is not even sure which one of them did it. Grindelwald fled and according to Aberforth Albus was now free from the duty of taking care of Ariana. Harry tells Aberforth that his brother was never free from what occurred that day. Harry tells Aberforth about Albus' screams after he drank the potion in the cave. Harry insists that he is going to continue fighting and asks Aberforth if he can help them get into Hogwarts now would be a good time to do so. Aberforth asks Ariana's picture on his desk if she knows what to do. Trio sees that Ariana leaves and comes back with somebody, it looks like her picture is also a door to the very real tunnel and when Ariana comes back, a battered Neville appears to greet them. 1. How did the DEs know that the Trio would apparate into Hogsmeade and not to any other place? What obvious moment am I missing? 2. Was Aberforth really sincere in his urging of Harry to abandon his quest? That is, did Aberforth really think Harry should just stop? 3. "he had made his choice when he dug Dobby's grave; he had decided to continue along the winding, dangerous path indicated to him by Albus Dumbledore, to accept that he had not been told everything that he wanted to know, but simply to trust" What significance if any do you see in this quote? 4. Can you reconcile Elphias Doge's statement that Albus and Aberforth were friends and that they reestablished cordial relationship some time after Ariana's death with the way Aberforth talks to Harry about his brother? Why or why not? 5. Which happy memory Aberforth uses for his patronus? 6. We hear the words "greater good" from both Aberforth and Harry in this chapter. Are they talking about the same thing? Why or why not? 7. Why was the tunnel undiscovered by Marauders? 8. If Albus' plea in the cave means what Harry tells Aberforth it meant, does it mean that Albus knew after all who killed Ariana? 9. Would you want Aberforth to be Harry's mentor? Why or why not? 10. By the end of this chapter, we and Harry have heard three accounts of the Dumbledores, from Doge, Skeeter, and Aberforth. Which account did you find most credible, and why? 11. Were you surprised by any of Aberforth's revelations? Did they affect your view of Albus? Alla ------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see "HPfGU DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 29, The Lost Diadem, Sept. 8? From scarah at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 03:34:49 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 03:34:49 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH28, THE MISSING MIRROR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184244 It's a great job, Alla! > 1. How did the DEs know that the Trio would apparate into Hogsmeade > and not to any other place? What obvious moment am I missing? Sarah: I think it's because Voldemort decided to alert Snape to the fact that Harry might be showing up at Hogwarts soon, back in the last chapter. Snape might not realize that the other Death Eaters might have Harry demented, but he'd certainly want to know about his presence. > 2. Was Aberforth really sincere in his urging of Harry to abandon his > quest? That is, did Aberforth really think Harry should just stop? Sarah: I kind of think this serves at least two purposes. Firstly, it's a convenient spot to drive home, in case we forgot, that Harry is not compelled by outside sources to behave as the Chosen One or even Dumbledore's Man. He has free will. What he will do in a few chapters is by his free will, not because he's a trained Dumbledore monkey or because a dusty orb told him to. Secondly, it just continues to show that despite being Albus' brother, Aberforth was never really in the loop because of his strained relationship with Albus. Even though the prophecy was made under his own roof, he doesn't fully get the importance of it and that Harry must fulfill it. (Yes, I know I just got done talking about Harry having free will, and it's true that he certainly could just run away now. But as Dumbledore said, it would never be over for him because of the way that *Voldemort* interprets the prophecy.) > 3. "he had made his choice when he dug Dobby's grave; he had decided > to continue along the winding, dangerous path indicated to him by > Albus Dumbledore, to accept that he had not been told everything that > he wanted to know, but simply to trust" What significance if any do > you see in this quote? Sarah: It relates somewhat to what I discussed in my last answer. Harry still has the option to deny the prophecy and just take evasive, hiding maneuvers while Voldemort takes over Britain and rounds up Muggleborns. I don't think Harry ever really considered this an option, but it was one that he had. He also had been debating searching the Hallows instead of the Horcruxes at that time, and decided against it. > 4. Can you reconcile Elphias Doge's statement that Albus and > Aberforth were friends and that they reestablished cordial > relationship some time after Ariana's death with the way Aberforth > talks to Harry about his brother? Why or why not? Sarah: I think that Doge was an Albus fan, trying to be flattering in Albus' obituary (and perhaps even seeing it that way). It's not completely false, they were somewhat in contact, at least later, when Aberforth for example warned Albus that Voldemort and the Death Eaters were in town for Voldemort's job interview. > 5. Which happy memory Aberforth uses for his patronus? Sarah: Something about goats, for sure. :) > 6. We hear the words "greater good" from both Aberforth and Harry in > this chapter. Are they talking about the same thing? Why or why not? Sarah: I think they are very different. I think that Aberforth is almost making a noir humor kind of joke, about what Albus said in his letter to Gellert, and became Gellert's slogan and was carved above the door to Nurmengard. I think Harry means it sincerely, and this other reference is completely escaping him. > 7. Why was the tunnel undiscovered by Marauders? Sarah: It only exists when the Room of Requirement provides it, and the Room of Requirement is a very hard one to map. At least that was my reading. > 8. If Albus' plea in the cave means what Harry tells Aberforth it > meant, does it mean that Albus knew after all who killed Ariana? Sarah: I am sorry for this answer but I still have no idea. There are some questionable things in there. It almost reads like Gellert was making Albus kill her, in parts. But in King's Cross, Albus still claims to not know. > 9. Would you want Aberforth to be Harry's mentor? Why or why not? Sarah: Helper and dispatcher? Yes. Mentor? No. Aberforth does not have enough information about what's really going on at the heart of this thing to guide Harry's individual path. He's great at knowing who showed up and guiding them how to get where they need to be, though. He's more like a guy who runs a depot where the military ship out from, than a top secret agent. > 10. By the end of this chapter, we and Harry have heard three > accounts of the Dumbledores, from Doge, Skeeter, and Aberforth. Which > account did you find most credible, and why? Sarah: Hmm. I guess it takes all three. And we really still don't know. Even with Dumbledore's later addition of his side of the story, I have no idea whom to believe. Obviously all parties have their biases. Perhaps none of them are honest. > 11. Were you surprised by any of Aberforth's revelations? Did they > affect your view of Albus? Sarah: No, he pretty much eloquated my view of Albus spot on! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 03:53:53 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 03:53:53 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184245 Pippin wrote: > > JKR said she'd always had a desire to write "Fantastic Beasts", even before she was asked to create something for Comic Relief, so I could believe that she started saving some information for it as early as PoA. > I admit, overconfidence as an explanation of Snape's blunder works equally well for JKR. But AFAWK, Snape has no reason to make mention of Mongolia particularly, and JKR does -- it's a funny name, like St Mungo's. In any case, it's a bit silly to contend that JKR wouldn't know where Kappas are actually said to live, since she went to the trouble of researching them in the first place. > > She could have invented an explanation that would make Snape look good, simply by using FB to establish that in her world, there *are* Kappas in Mongolia. (BTW, the Kappa legend could have orginated in mainland Asia. So maybe Snape was right! > http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/kappa.shtml)) > > But having scorched Harry for being unprepared on *his* first day of class, and having further twitted Lupin for his lack of organization, it was inevitable that Snape would reveal some similar inadequacy of his own. That's JKR's style all over. Carol responds: So you think that she deliberately had Snape make an error in PoA, unnoticed at the time, unnecessary to the story, and never mentioned in the HP books proper, only so that she could have Harry and Ron laugh at him when she wrote Fantastic Beasts a few years later? You think that she planned it all along? If that explanation satisfies you, I can't argue you out of it. I like my cover-up explanation better, with Leah's "kappa-no-kawa-nagare" a close second. My contention may be "a bit silly," but JKR has been known to make mistakes in math, history, geography, and genetics, so why not Asian mythological creatures, hardly her forte. And she doesn't check the facts in her own books, by her own confession, so I can easily imagine her "remembering" that "Kappas are more commonly found in Mongolia" (which, to my American ears, doesn't sound much like "St. Mungo's"), only to be corrected by a better-informed reader. (We're talking about the woman who's not even sure that twenty-four hours are missing in chapter 1 of SS/PS.) It may well be JKR's "style" to have characters make mistakes similar to those they've twitted others about. It's also her "style," as we see with Marcus Flint, to blame the character for her [JKR's] mistake, or to invent excuses (Harry couldn't see the Thestrals even though he witnessed Cedric's death because the death hadn't sunk in yet) to cover inconsistencies in her books. If Snape has trouble admitting that he's wrong, it's a trait he shares with his creator. Carol, who really doubts that JKR thought, "I'll have Snape make a mistake in Lupin's DADA class in PoA and have Harry correct him in Fantastic Beasts! Cool!" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 04:02:56 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 04:02:56 -0000 Subject: psychopath / Kingsley / education for wizarding students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184246 Carol earlier: > > Hogwarts itself certainly provides inadequate preparation for university-level classes in literature, foreign languages, math, the sciences, and Muggle history, to name only those subjects that come immediately to my mind. >> > > Pippin: > Since Harry never took Muggle studies, we don't know what's covered in that course. Arthur certainly doesn't inspire much confidence, but it may be that eventually, under Dumbledore's headmastership, the subject was taken, and taught, more seriously. Carol responds: We get some idea of it from Hermione's homework, which involves in one instance Muggles lifting heavy objects and in another, IIRC, some sort of wiring diagram. And we're told in HBP that Charity Burbage taught her students, in essence, that Muggles are people, too. That's better than nothing, certainly, but it's no substitute for college prep courses from a high school or prep school, including those I listed. I doubt that, say, foreign languages or Muggle history are taught as part of the Muggle Studies curriculum, though the latter certainly should be. BTW, Pippin, I was confused at first by your Catlady-style post and had to check twice to be sure that it was really yours! Carol, who thinks that a well-taught, well-balanced Muggle Studies curriculum involving a great deal more than "eckeltricity" should be mandatory for Hogwarts students From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 05:26:26 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 05:26:26 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH28, THE MISSING MIRROR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184247 Alla: > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Chapter 28, The Missing Mirror Carol: Fine job, Alla. Very clear and objective. I'd never know it was an emergency substitution if you hadn't told us. :-) > > 1. How did the DEs know that the Trio would apparate into Hogsmeade > and not to any other place? What obvious moment am I missing? Carol: Voldemort knows that Harry has found at least one of his Horcruxes (not counting the diary) and he knows or suspects that Harry will go to Hogwarts, possibly soon. The easiest way, if not the only way, into Hogwarts, other than by carriage or boat from the train platform, is through Hogsmeade. Voldemort has clearly told his DEs to expect Harry and that he will probably be wearing the Invisibility Cloak. (He's also told Snape and the Carrows that Harry is coming to Hogwarts and that he'll try to get into the Ravenclaw Common Room.) > > 2. Was Aberforth really sincere in his urging of Harry to abandon his quest? That is, did Aberforth really think Harry should just stop? Carol responds: My impression, though I can't know for certain, is yes. He apparently thinks (as Snape and LV also do) that Harry is just Albus's puppet. He also seems to think that Albus didn't care who he sacrificed for the Greater Good (Grindelwald casts a long shadow) and that the cause is lost. All they can do is make the best of a bad situation, in his own case, tricking and being disrespectful to the DEs but providing them a place to trade poisons and Dark artifacts (IIRC); in HRH's case, escaping, like Hagrid and other fugitives, with their lives. He certainly doesn't seem to believe (unlike Albus) that Harry is the Chosen One or that he has either the ability or the moral obligation to save or sacrifice himself for the WW. He's still in his way fighting a lost cause out of sheer stubbornness, possibly because he's old and feisty and has nothing to lose, but he doesn't want Harry to follow his example or worse, face Voldemort himself. > > 3. "he had made his choice when he dug Dobby's grave; he had decided to continue along the winding, dangerous path indicated to him by Albus Dumbledore, to accept that he had not been told everything that he wanted to know, but simply to trust" What significance if any do you see in this quote? Carol: I think he has no choice but to do exactly that, and I also think that his view of the greater good (essentially, sometimes you have to sacrifice yourself so that others will benefit) is a central theme of all the books, symbolized by Lily and her blood protection. But this line also sets us up for DD's "betrayal" of Harry, who loses faith and trust in Dumbledore and yet continues on that path because he knows he must. And, in the end, trust wins out. His self-sacrifice makes the defeat of Voldemort (who is now mortal and could theoretically have been killed by someone else) possible; it provides temporary protection for others, weakening Voldemort's spells, and Harry himself survives. If he hadn't trusted Dumbledore even after learning that he was no paragon, I doubt that he could have defeated Voldemort. (Now DD's ability to trust is another matter, but that's part of the irony here.) > > 4. Can you reconcile Elphias Doge's statement that Albus and Aberforth were friends and that they reestablished cordial relationship some time after Ariana's death with the way Aberforth talks to Harry about his brother? Why or why not? Carol: Did Elphias actually say "cordial"? I'm too tired to look it up. If he did, he's mistaken. They came to terms of some sort, and Aberforth was certainly part of the Order and also (IMO) one of Albus's many spies (he provided info on Voldemort and his traveling companions before the DADA interview, for example). He also attended Albus's funeral, which indicates a kind of reconciliation or vestigial affection even though he hadn't forgotten the past or fully forgiven it. Maybe Harry's victory restored Aberforth's faith in his dead brother. Impossible to say. > > 5. Which happy memory Aberforth uses for his patronus? Carol: Probably a happy moment from his childhood involving Ariana and goats, the only two things he ever cared about. I'm thinking of something simple and wholesome, like Ariana feeding, petting, or milking a goat. > > 6. We hear the words "greater good" from both Aberforth and Harry in this chapter. Are they talking about the same thing? Why or why not? Carol: I don't think so. Aberforth is thinking of Albus as sacrificing the individual for the good of the majority or the state, almost a faceless totalianarianism. Whatever the greater good is in his view, it's not what *he* believes in or is willing to fight for. But Harry has a more idealistic view, and, IMO, a truer one. Some causes are worth dying for. Sirius Black said the same thing back in OoP and explained why not even the Weasley Twins, who were of age, could be in the Order because they didn't understand that principle. But every just war, every just cause for which people have fought and willingly died, has exactly that basis. So, of course, does Christianity. > > 7. Why was the tunnel undiscovered by Marauders? Carol: Good question. Maybe because it led out of the RoR, which they never discovered, either. Or, possibly, it didn't exist yet, but I like my other answer better. > > 8. If Albus' plea in the cave means what Harry tells Aberforth it meant, does it mean that Albus knew after all who killed Ariana? Carol: I think that Albus *fears* that he killed Ariana, but he doesn't know. Surely, Grindelwald, unscrupulous as he was, would have blamed one of the Dumbledore brothers if he could. Instead, he ran away, fearing (perhaps with good reason) that he would be blamed. > > 9. Would you want Aberforth to be Harry's mentor? Why or why not? Carol: Definitely not. He's not a planner (though his on-the-spot subterfuge with the goat Patronus was clever) and he has no concern for the greater good in any form. What could he, an unwashed, half-educated, and embittered old innkeeper, have told Harry about defeating Voldemort or finding Horcruxes? Albus made mistakes, sometimes big ones, but he was the right man for the job (with help from Snape and Lupin and others). > > 10. By the end of this chapter, we and Harry have heard three accounts of the Dumbledores, from Doge, Skeeter, and Aberforth. Which account did you find most credible, and why? Carol: Well, certainly not Doge's, which is idealized, generalized, and incomplete. Skeeter's is biased and full of innuendoes, not to mention absurd speculations like Grindelwald holding up a white flag and giving in without a fight. She's closer to the truth than Doge, but it lies somewhere in between the two, as, I think, most readers guessed from the beginning of the book. Aberforth's falls into that in-between area, and he knew Albus personally, at least when they were both boys, but I doubt that either ever understood the other. In the end, we have to figure out the truth for ourselves, bringing in Dead!Dumbledore's contributions as well. Even with all four accounts, we don't have a full picture or an unbiased source. (Autobiography has its own built-in biases and cover-ups.) The one voice we don't hear with regard to Ariana's death is Grindelwald's. Would he be honest after death, with nothing more to lose? We'll probably never know. > > 11. Were you surprised by any of Aberforth's revelations? Did they affect your view of Albus? Carol: I think I was more surprised by Aberforth's attitude toward Albus, the continuing resentment and bitterness, than by the revelations themselves (though he did clear up the Ariana-as-Squib controversy). I don't think they changed my view of Albus all that much. "The Prince's Tale" is another matter. Thank goodness for "King's Cross," which brought back the familiar Dumbledore, flawed and dead but himself again! Thanks, Alla! Fine job and great questions! Carol, who thinks that the best young minds in the WW were all in need of guidance (Where was Albus Dumbledore's mentor? Or Grindelwald's? Or Snape's? Or MWPP's? Or even Hermione's?) From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 07:20:54 2008 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 07:20:54 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184248 --- "Carol" wrote: > > Alla: > > > > Does it matter though for that reason he did not know? > > What I am trying to say is that you think that he did not > > know because he was being too full of himself, right? ... > > Carol responds: > > I'm not Potioncat, of course, but my understanding is that > Potioncat *doesn't* think that Snape was wrong. Her earlier > post indicated that she thinks (as I do) that the mistake > was JKR's (she didn't realize when she wrote that bit of > dialogue that Kappas are a Japanese magical creature, not a > Mongolian one) and she covered up her own blunder by making > it Snape's--pointlessly, because the mistake is never > revealed in the actual series. > > ... > > Essentially, I think that the chief difference between > Potioncat's position and mine is that she finds JKR's > cover-up tactic amusing and I find it annoying. ... bboyminn: I'm working from memory here (a very poor one at that) but I believe Snape says something to the effect that Lupin is wrong and that Kappas are /more commonly/ found in Japan. First, we don't know what Lupin told the students. We only know, according to Snape, that Kappas are LESS commonly found at Lupin's location. Further, we don't know that Snape is giving us the MOST common location where Kappas are found, only that it is more common than whatever Lupin said. I suspect it is like the range of any animal, it is spread across several countries, and exactly where the greatest concentration is is debatable and changes with time. Exactly where the country of origin is is debatable, and the current greatest occurrence is not necessarily the country of origin. So, in this sense, Snape doesn't have to be wrong in his statement, he only has to be, in his mind, more right that Lupin. And from that perspective, JKR (and by extension Snape) can be both right and wrong. Steve/bluewizard From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Sep 3 12:36:10 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 12:36:10 -0000 Subject: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184249 184242 > Sarah: > I know, but how are we sure that's an error? Snape disagreed with > the book. He disagreed with some things in Advanced Potions too, and his way turned out to be better. Potioncat: I don't think I can stand it. A Snape thread, after all this time. Just like the old days! And as icing on the cake, someone supporting Snape beyond anything ever seen. Of course! Snape was right and the book was wrong! Works for me. What shall we review next "Oops" or "I see no difference"? ;-) 184235 > Alla: > Does it matter though for that reason he did not know? What I am > trying to say is that you think that he did not know because he was > being too full of himself, right? I think he did not know, just > because he did not know. The point we agree on is that he was wrong, > right? So any interpetation can be valid - yours or mine and none can ?? be disproved. Potioncat: I think Snape went too far in commenting on the papers. That's what I mean by being full of himself. Other characters who are sometimes full of themselves are Sirius Black, the Weasley twins and on occasion, Harry. Had Snape really been teaching a class on Kappas, he would have prepared and would have refreshed his memory. If indeed, it was a mistake. ;-) > Potioncat then: > > That's why I referred to him as teacher who does know it all, not a ?? > know-it-all teacher. There's a big difference. Potioncat now: McGonagall is also a teacher who knows it all. I base that on what we've seen of her teaching style, and on her comments about other types of magic. Snape knows it all as evidenced by his skills at potion making and DADA. However, I will concede that Snape can be an insufferable know-it-all at times, which makes his comment to Hermione all the funnier. (Boy, I hope that was in the book and not just movie contamination.) > > Alla: > Lupin was? Come to think of it, I do not know what mistakes Lupin > made as a teacher. So, yeah he is as far as I am concerned as > **teacher**, not person of course comes very close to perfection. > > Oh yes, he did not take his potion, but that I do not consider to be > teaching mistake, more like personal one. :-) Potioncat: He did not give Hermione a chance to practice repelling her Boggart in class, causing her to do poorly on the exam. (Well, you asked.) I really like his overall teaching style. Not taking his potion, at his own place during holiday would be a personal mistake. Not taking his potion while on the grounds of a school---nope, that's beyond negligent for a teacher. Of course, if I were his neighbor, I wouldn't take kindly to either mistake. 184239 Pippin: > But as for whether it's in character for Snape to make such a blunder, > surely you've noticed he has a tendency to be overconfident where > Lupin is concerned? It wouldn't be the first time, or the last, that ?? he got in over his head. Potioncat: Nothing to add. I just thought this was wry, and very Snape-like. Yes, Carol had my reaction correct, I'm amused at the way JKR dealt with the situation. I've noticed little jokes in canon from the movies/actors. It's not too surprising she's done something like this. Of course there are other times I've found her less amusing. Pippin, or anyone else, are there other zingers, nods or winks in FBAWTFT or QTTA? I've seen copies, but don't own either. From kaamita at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 11:46:54 2008 From: kaamita at yahoo.com (Heather Hadden) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 04:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: CHAPDISC: DH28, THE MISSING MIRROR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <157205.70707.qm@web56506.mail.re3.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184250 Alla: 7. Why was the tunnel undiscovered by Marauders? Carol: Good question. Maybe because it led out of the RoR, which they never discovered, either. Or, possibly, it didn't exist yet, but I like my other answer better. ? Heather: I agree Carol. I don't think that the tunnel was even created. IIRC, Neville needed it, so the RoR created it at that moment. So, it wouldn't be on the Marauders map at all, even if the RoR were on the map, the tunnel still wouldn't show up. At least that is what I remember. ? Heather ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 14:46:41 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:46:41 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH28, THE MISSING MIRROR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184251 > 8. If Albus' plea in the cave means what Harry tells Aberforth it > meant, does it mean that Albus knew after all who killed Ariana? Sarah: I am sorry for this answer but I still have no idea. There are some questionable things in there. It almost reads like Gellert was making Albus kill her, in parts. But in King's Cross, Albus still claims to not know. Alla: I just feel that I need to clarify that question, because when I wrote it I had a very specific point in mind, not the general ambiguity of the story. And this is the point which sort of makes me wonder if it is as contradictory as I thought before. Harry says (paraphrase) than when Albus screamed please do not hurt them, hurt me instead, he was back to watching Grindelwald hurting Ariana and Aberforth, right? Then we have the claim from all of them pretty much that we do not know who fired the curse that killed Ariana, yes? Well, Doge pretty much absolves Albus, but we agree that it is not clear, I believe. So what was confusing to me is that if ( and only if that means what Harry thinks that means) Albus' do not hurt them, hurt me instead means that he sees Grindelwald hurting Ariana, does it not imply that Grindelwald after all was the one who killed her? I mean, not to say, of course that after Grindelwald hit Ariana, either Albus or Aberforth could not have hit her with their curses, but does it at least imply that Grindelwald did hit the target? Does it make sense? Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Sep 3 15:25:12 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:25:12 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184252 > > Carol responds: > . And she doesn't check the facts in her own books, by her own confession, Pippin: She said she doesn't like re-reading her books once they are published because of the temptation to re-edit them. However... http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/fansite_view.cfm?id=14 [The Lexicon] is such a great site that I have been known to sneak into an internet caf? while out writing and check a fact rather than go into a bookshop and buy a copy of Harry Potter (which is embarrassing). --- I don't, of course, know how thoroughly JKR read up on kappas, but bowing does not belong originally to the hippogriff legend. It does seem to have been borrowed from the kappa, which might be one reason JKR mentioned them in the first place. The site I looked at says that though the kappa creature has many evil ways, it will keep its word and serve faithfully the one who captures it and makes it promise not to harm anyone again. Sound like anyone we know? Potioncat asked: Pippin, or anyone else, are there other zingers, nods or winks in FBAWTFT or QTTA? I've seen copies, but don't own either. Pippin: The entry on the hippogriff states "It can be tamed, though this should be attempted only by experts." The sentence is underlined and Harry's comment in the margin reads, "has Hagrid read this book?" Also, on page xix "The 1965 Ban on Experimental Breeding has made the creation of new species illegal." To which Harry adds, "but no one's told Hagrid" The introduction (written by Dumbledore) states that wizards seeking to make donations to Comic Relief should do so "through Gringotts Wizarding Bank (ask for Griphook.)" which shows that Dumbledore trusted him, IMO, though Carol will probably argue that this is JKR being inconsistent again. Creatures making an appearance in FB prior to their appearance in the books include the thestral, "black, possessed of the power of invisibility, and considered unlucky by many wizards" and the moke. FB explains that moke skin bags have the ability to shrink at the approach of a stranger, and therefore moke skin moneybags are very difficult for thieves to locate. FB allows one to identify the creatures that Harry sees in the magical creatures shop in PoA. The "gigantic tortoise with a jewel-encrusted shell" is a Fire Crab, the poisonous orange snails are Streelers and the "funny custard-colored furballs" are Puffskeins. Pippin who thinks future generations of wizarding children will write "has Harry read this book?" beside the thestral entry From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 20:12:07 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:12:07 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184253 Pippin wrote: > She said she doesn't like re-reading her books once they are published because of the temptation to re-edit them. Carol responds: That might be a temptation worth yielding to. Some inconsistencies, though not all, could be caught and corrected that way. Too bad it wasn't done the first time. (Personally, I'd love to see a revised and *annotated* edition of all the books, with the revisions done by JKR based on inconsistencies pointed out to her by other people, and the annotations done, with her approval, by a knowledgeable editor other than JKR.) Pippin wrote: However... > > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/fansite_view.cfm?id=14 > > [The Lexicon] is such a great site that I have been known to sneak into an internet caf? while out writing and check a fact rather than go into a bookshop and buy a copy of Harry Potter (which is embarrassing). Carol responds: Embarrassing or not, she should have consulted her own books to confirm her fictional facts. IMO, she should have reread them, or at least the relevant chapters, in preparation for each new book, with Post-It notes marking key passages that she might need to refer to. (Then again, if her manuscripts had been composed in Word rather than written by hand, she could have had the information she needed with her at all times, assuming that she owns a laptop, accessible with a few clicks of a mouse. And, if you knew me, you'd realize how very odd it is for me to say that--I'm not fond of Word, especially the later versions [the last good one was Word 2000], and I prefer my own desktop computer to any laptop, But if she can't bring herself to compose on the computer, she ought at least to be familiar with her own books and know where to look for the information, using Post-It Notes to mark information in the draft manuscripts that needs to be verified later. I won't even talk about her reliance on the Lexicon, which, of course, is even more OT than the rest of this paragraph. > Potioncat asked: > Pippin, or anyone else, are there other zingers, nods or winks in FBAWTFT or QTTA? I've seen copies, but don't own either. > Pippin responded: > The entry on the hippogriff states "It can be tamed, though this should be attempted only by experts." The sentence is underlined and Harry's comment in the margin reads, "has Hagrid read this book?" > > Also, on page xix "The 1965 Ban on Experimental Breeding has made the creation of new species illegal." To which Harry adds, "but no one's told Hagrid" Carol adds: Some of the graffiti is in Ron's handwriting and some in Harry's (distinguishable by comparing Harry's signature on the front cover and remarks that are clearly identified as being by one or the other with the unidentified comments). I imagine that composing those comments, which reveal Ron's and Harry's views of those other characters, was the most enjoyable part of the books. Of course, pinning her own blunder about kappas (if it was a blunder--I've read the entire thread and acknowledge the possibility that Snape knows more about kappas than Newt Scamander, just as he knows other ways of dealing with Dementors than Patronuses and better ways of making a Potion than Arsenius Jigger) would also amuse her--as well as getting herself off the hook for not remembering that Kappas are "more commonly found" in Japan. Harry's comment about Snape does fit his view of Snape while he was still at Hogwarts, not knowing that Snape was protecting him and working against LV, and anything he could say to ridicule Snape would have been in character, however little it advanced the plot. I still don't like it, but I can see why she did it (and why some readers would find it amusing or harmless). I personally think it's irresponsible of an author not to take responsibility for her own errors; it's rather like Harry choosing to blame Snape for Sirius Black's death, only, of course, on an entirely different level of moral seriousness (if that makes sense). The rest of the graffiti is similar--the kids injecting their own opinions in relation to their own experiences in Books 1 through 4 (in a description of the selkies [Merpeople] of Scotland as "less beautiful [than the mermaids of Muggle legend], "less beautiful" is altered to "ugly," reflecting Harry's encounter with them in the Second Task or GoF (why "selkies" is lowercased and "Merrows" is capitalized, I can't guess). The kids' commentary, like real graffiti by students, is mostly unpunctuated (except for correctly used apostrophes and an occasional question mark) but correctly spelled. Some of it is unrelated to the subject matter (comments on Quidditch, an explanation of what happened to Ron's copy of the book, and a reprimand regarding dungbombs in Hermione's writing). Quidditch through the Ages, which is supposed to be a library book, has no such graffiti. It does, however, have a list of the students who checked it out, along with due dates, beginning with "Wood" and ending with "H. Potter," which is interesting in itself. The person who checked it out before Harry is Hermione(!), and the names include known Quidditch players like C. Diggory, K. Bell, and C. Warrington, but also some surprises, such as E. Macmillan, M. Bulstrode, and T. Nott. I take it that the book was checked out in Harry's fourth year, when Oliver Wood and Cedric Diggory were still at the school. The question is whether he ever returned it! There's also a note from Madam Pince, probably magically stamped into all the library books: "If you rip, tear, shred, bend fold, deface, disfigure, smudge, throw, drop, or in any other manner damage, mistreat, or show lack of respect towards this book, the consequences will be as awful as it is in my power to make them." She forgot "Despoiled! Desecrated! Befouled!" (HBP Am. ed. 308), but I supposed that "deface" and "disfigure" would cover the shared tendency of HRH and Severus Snape to write in textbooks. Interestingly (to me), the forthcoming edition of "the Tales of Beedle the Bard" will have Dumbledore's annotations (marginalia as well as footnotes, I hope!), which should make it more interesting than the stories themselves. Let's hope for some illuminating remarks about wands (and the Peverell brothers) in "The Tale of the Two Brothers," at least. Pippin: > The introduction (written by Dumbledore) states that wizards seeking to make donations to Comic Relief should do so "through Gringotts Wizarding Bank (ask for Griphook.)" which shows that Dumbledore trusted him, IMO, though Carol will probably argue that this is JKR being inconsistent again. Carol: It would hardly be the first time that she was inconsistent. If Dumbledore trusted Griphook personally, his trust was misplaced. However, I suspect that the reference related more to Griphook's position at Gringotts (which evidently involved some sort of Muggle relations, at a guess through some sort of Squib go-between) rather than distinguishing Griphook personally as worthy of trust. (He certainly wasn't a confidant of DD's!) Moreover, Griphook, as a Gringotts Goblin would have considered it his duty to safeguard the treasure in his care, which would include any Muggle money converted to galleons (or vice versa) intended to go into a particular bank account. Also, of course, Griphook was the Goblin most familiar to JKR's readers, who would remember him from SS/PS. Dumbledore would have no reason to suspect him of future treachery to Harry or even of a future connection with him unrelated to Harry's bank vault. Possibly JKR herself hadn't even thought out Griphook's role (or she was taking the opportunity to throw out his name to a small segment of her readers again before having him expose HRH to what he must have expected to be certain death for the sake of a sword that he had no valid claim to. (My opinion, of course, already supported elsewhere in this forum.) Pippin: > Creatures making an appearance in FB prior to their appearance in the books include the thestral, "black, possessed of the power of invisibility, and considered unlucky by many wizards" and the moke. FB explains that moke skin bags have the ability to shrink at the approach of a stranger, and therefore moke skin moneybags are very difficult for thieves to locate. Carol responds: I defer to zanooda for inconsistencies related to mokes and mokeskin! Pippin: > FB allows one to identify the creatures that Harry sees in the magical creatures shop in PoA. The "gigantic tortoise with a jewel-encrusted shell" is a Fire Crab, the poisonous orange snails are Streelers and the "funny custard-colored furballs" are Puffskeins. Carol: And the (long-dead) creature with five legs that Harry spots in the RoR when he's trying to hide "his" Potions book is a Qyintaped. > > Pippin > who thinks future generations of wizarding children will write "has Harry read this book?" beside the thestral entry Carol: In Harry's defense, "Thestral" doesn't have its own entry. It's under "Winged Horse" near the end of the book, in the same entry as the Abraxan horses owned by Madame Maxime. You'd think there'd be at least a cross reference. Still, though, if he'd read the book carefully rather than casually, for entertainment, with references to the creatures he'd actually encountered by fourth year, he'd have known what Thestrals were. It's a safe bet that Hagrid, whose project for the fourth-years was Blast-Ended Skrewts, hadn't assigned it for homework then. He probably didn't assign the (not very detailed) paragraph on Winged Horses, either, since he wanted the Thestrals to be a surprise, and he told the students more about them than the book did. Carol, who thinks that the inconsistency involving Thestrals relates more to his inability to see them at the end of GoF than to his not having read (or, more likely, remembered) the inconspicuous Winged Horses entry From loptwyn at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 21:03:24 2008 From: loptwyn at yahoo.com (Alice) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:03:24 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH28, THE MISSING MIRROR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184254 Alla: > > 8. If Albus' plea in the cave means what Harry tells Aberforth it > meant, does it mean that Albus knew after all who killed Ariana? > > Carol: > I think that Albus *fears* that he killed Ariana, but he doesn't know. > Surely, Grindelwald, unscrupulous as he was, would have blamed one of > the Dumbledore brothers if he could. Instead, he ran away, fearing > (perhaps with good reason) that he would be blamed. Whether he himself fired the fatal curse or not, Albus would probably have felt responsible because he brought Gellert into their household and their lives in the first place. Alice >:> From scarah at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 21:33:24 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:33:24 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184255 > Carol adds: > I take it > that the book was checked out in Harry's fourth year, when Oliver Wood > and Cedric Diggory were still at the school. The question is whether > he ever returned it! Sarah: I thought it was first year, and he never did return it because Snape made up a rule that library books weren't allowed in the courtyard and took it. He went to ask for it back, but found out that Filch was bandaging Snape's leg (why Filch was doing it I have no idea) so he took off. I don't recall he ever did get it back, but I don't have my book here to check. From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 23:21:14 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 23:21:14 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184256 Regarding the controversy about Snape and the location of Kappas... I think there's another interpretation. True, FB lists them one way and Snape insists on another, but what's to say that FB is correct? After all, we know that Snape doesn't trust books to have the best information. He amended the text when he was a student, and he barely assigns texts as Potions teacher. So, as far as I'm concerned, Snape probably had it right and the book had it wrong. :) Montavilla47 From scarah at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 01:20:14 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 01:20:14 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH28, THE MISSING MIRROR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184257 > Alla: > So what was confusing to me is that if ( and only if that means what > Harry thinks that means) Albus' do not hurt them, hurt me instead > means that he sees Grindelwald hurting Ariana, does it not imply that > Grindelwald after all was the one who killed her? Sarah: Oh yes, I agree with you there. What I'm still confused about is all the other stuff in Dumbledore's ramblings at the cave. All the "Don't make me..." etc. There are three options I can think of. 1. This is the present-day Dumbledore, referring to drinking the potion. He's fading in and out between the present and the Grindelwald fight. 2. He's referring to Grindelwald *compelling him to do something.* This is the option I find most sinister. 3. He's simply asking Grindelwald not to force him to fight against him, because, true love. Hey, that reminds me of something. From OOTP: "'Ah, Evans, don't make me hex you,' said James earnestly." James and Albus: matching Gryffindor jerks each with their own Potter namesake episprog? From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Sep 4 01:47:32 2008 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 01:47:32 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "montavilla47" wrote: > > Regarding the controversy about Snape and the location of > Kappas... > > I think there's another interpretation. True, FB lists them > one way and Snape insists on another, but what's to say that > FB is correct? After all, we know that Snape doesn't trust > books to have the best information. He amended the text > when he was a student, and he barely assigns texts as > Potions teacher. > > So, as far as I'm concerned, Snape probably had it right > and the book had it wrong. :) > > Montavilla47 > Good point -- FB was wrong about where the Acromantulas were, after all. Annemehr From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Sep 4 07:07:52 2008 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 07:07:52 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184259 --- "Steve" wrote: I'll add one more point that occurred to me. WE'VE made this about Kappas, but that is not what it is about to Snape. He could care less were Kappas are more commonly found. This is about Lupin, and Snape's determination to undermine Lupin in the eyes of the students. It has nothing, from Snape's point of view, to do with Kappas, it is about discrediting and undermining Lupin. We can't even say that Snape's statement is indeed fact. He may have just made it up, again, to undermine Lupin. Steve/bluewizards. From leahstill at hotmail.com Thu Sep 4 09:07:57 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 09:07:57 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184260 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- "Steve" wrote: > > I'll add one more point that occurred to me. WE'VE made this > about Kappas, but that is not what it is about to Snape. > He could care less were Kappas are more commonly found. This > is about Lupin, and Snape's determination to undermine Lupin > in the eyes of the students. > > It has nothing, from Snape's point of view, to do with Kappas, > it is about discrediting and undermining Lupin. > > We can't even say that Snape's statement is indeed fact. He > may have just made it up, again, to undermine Lupin. > Leah: Well, yes, he does want to discredit Lupin, but I don't believe he'd do so by making up a 'fact' in a class containing the 'insufferable know it all'. Hermione debates with Snape whether they should in fact be turning to page 394; she's not likely to let a Kappa correction go unchecked and unchallenged. So it's more likely that Snape either genuinely thinks he is right, but is mistaken, or actually is right. The fact that we don't hear Hermione call him on Kappas, at least in private to Harry and Ron suggests Snape was probably right, or as has been suggested before, that JKR thought he was right at the time she was writing POA. Leah From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Sep 4 18:13:04 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 18:13:04 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184261 > > > Leah: > > So it's more likely that Snape either genuinely thinks he is right, > but is mistaken, or actually is right. The fact that we don't hear > Hermione call him on Kappas, at least in private to Harry and Ron > suggests Snape was probably right, or as has been suggested before, > that JKR thought he was right at the time she was writing POA. > Pippin: Hermione was in tears over being called an insufferable know-it-all, and Snape was threatening dire consequences for anyone who interrupted the class or criticized his teaching. Even if she wasn't too busy nursing her hurt feelings or taking notes on werewolves to notice what Snape was saying, I doubt she would have thought it worth the consequences to disagree with him. It could well have been Hermione who pointed out to Harry and Ron that FB says something different about kappas. Pippin From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu Sep 4 18:36:37 2008 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 18:36:37 -0000 Subject: Teachers - Kappas in Japan, Mongolia, and Thailand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184262 --- "littleleahstill" wrote: > > > > > --- "Steve" wrote: > > > > I'll add one more point that occurred to me. WE'VE made this > > about Kappas, but that is not what it is about to Snape. > > He could care less were Kappas are more commonly found. This > > is about Lupin, and Snape's determination to undermine Lupin > > in the eyes of the students. > > > > It has nothing, from Snape's point of view, to do with Kappas, > > it is about discrediting and undermining Lupin. > > > > We can't even say that Snape's statement is indeed fact. He > > may have just made it up, again, to undermine Lupin. > > > Leah: > > Well, yes, he does want to discredit Lupin, but I don't believe > he'd do so by making up a 'fact' in a class containing the > 'insufferable know it all'. ... > bboyminn: Just so we are clear, I'm not saying Snape did or didn't make it up. I'm saying that WE the READERS can't determine if Snape's statement is accurate or not since Snape has an underlying agenda. Further, to my point, we don't know that Snape is making /the/ definitive statement. 'Fantastic Beasts' say Kappas come from Mongolia, Snape says Japan. Those statements don't necessarily contradict each other. For one, we don't know what Lupin said. Lupin may have said Thialand, and Snape was simply saying they are /more common/ in Japan. But being /more common/ in Japan does not eliminate the possibility that the creature originates in Mongolia. So, Snape has the motivating agenda of discrediting Lupin, and therefore, in his own mind, only need to be more right than Lupin. Further, there is an element of interpretation of the facts. It is possible that Kappas are more common in Japan, but are actually a bigger problem in Thailand. Japan has a uniformly prosperous and educated society; people may be smart enough to leave Kappas alone. Thailand, while a modern country, has a higher percentage of superstitious peasant population, and therefore, those peasants may have more face-to-face encounters with Kappas, making it fewer Kappas but a bigger problem in Thailand. In a sense, not knowing all the facts about Kappas, and not knowing exactly what Lupin told the students and why, we, the readers, are only guessing about the potential conflict between Snape's statement and the statement in 'Fantastic Beasts'. I'm setting up an alternate scenario in which, in context, all three (Lupin, Snape, and FB) can be right. Steve/bluewizard From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 4 20:20:47 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 20:20:47 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184263 "Steve" wrote: > > I'll add one more point that occurred to me. WE'VE made this about Kappas, but that is not what it is about to Snape. He could care less were Kappas are more commonly found. This is about Lupin, and Snape's determination to undermine Lupin in the eyes of the students. > > It has nothing, from Snape's point of view, to do with Kappas, it is about discrediting and undermining Lupin. > > We can't even say that Snape's statement is indeed fact. He may have just made it up, again, to undermine Lupin. > > Steve/bluewizards. > Carol responds: I don't think you can safely say that this is about Snape's desire to undermine Lupin, considering that all he says is, "That is incorrect. Kappas are more commonly found in Mongolia." He's responding to what the student wrote, not necessarily to what Lupin taught (or to what the textbook says). Since no one reacts, calling him on his mistake (Hermione doesn't whisper in Harry's ear that Snape is wrong, for example), it's just possible that the textbook, which is *not* FB, says exactly what textbook-memorizing Snape says it does. (I can cite evidence for him memorization of textbooks if you want it.) Since no textbook is specified for third-year DADA Potions students in the Leaky Cauldron chapter, I thought at first that the omission was an oversight on JKR's part, but I now think that Lupin is using the same textbook that Quirrell used, which is probably the standard DADA text for students below the NEWT level, just as there's no new Potions book till NEWT year, and "1000 Magical Herbs and Fungi" apparently gives Professor Sprout more than enough teaching material for all seven years. (Lockhart and Umbridge introduced their own "improvements" to the curriculum, requiring different DADA textbooks in those years, but they're deviating from the norm.) At any rate, Lupin's DADA students do have a textbook, as we see from scenes with both Lupin and Snape, but it can't be FB because it has whole chapters on the creatures studied, including werewolves and, if Lupin's essay is any indication, vampires (which aren't mentioned in FB). Other than Vampires, Lupin seems to have assigned only minor creatures suitable to third-years; he's not following the alphabetical arrangement of FB, which doesn't even mention Boggarts, and includes many creatures that he doesn't mention. FB doesn't have chapters; the combined entries for Grindylows, Kappas, and Red Caps would take even a slow reader like Crabbe or Goyle no more than five minutes to read. And since Snape tells the students to turn to page 394 (PoA Am. ed. 171), the DADA textbook can't possibly be FB, which has only 42 pages. The book that Quirrell assigned during Harry's first year, "The Dark Forces: A Guide to Self-Protection," by Quentin Trimble, includes a picture of a vampire, mentioned in SS/PS, so it must have a chapter on vampires that Lupin's students could use as a basis for their Vampire essays. If so, it most likely has a chapter on werewolves near the end of the book as well. Sidenote: My impression of the DADA text, whether or not it's "Dark Forces," is that the more dangerous creatures appear in the later chapters, which deal with Darker magic, and which makes more sense than an alphabetical arrangement like FB's if the same book is used by first- through fifth-year students. (After all, Charms has a new textbook for each year and Transfiguration has beginning, intermediate, and advanced versions. A textbook used by both beginning and intermediate students would need to be arranged either by year or by levels.) By third year, the students should have reached the XXX-XXXX creatures that Lupin teaches about in his class (if Lockhart hadn't interrupted the sequence by substituting his own textbooks). They would not, however, be reading about werewolves and vampires till OWL year if it weren't for the Lupin/Snape interaction. Another reason I think that Lupin is using the same book that Quirrell used, "The Dark Forces: A Guide to Self-Protection," is that the students take that book to Fake!Moody's class in Harry's fourth year (GoF Am. ed. 210). Fake!Moody, however, tells them to put the books away because they won't need them (perhaps because the book deals with Dark creatures, not spells; perhaps because he prefers to teach hands on, including hexing his own students and casting the Imperius Curse on them; perhaps both). I wondered why he would assign that text if he didn't plan to use it, or why the students would take that book to class if he *didn't* assign it (and, again, there's no new DADA text on the booklist for that year). Having a standard text for first through fifth year (which Fake!Moody chooses not to use) answers those questions. Anyway, Snape being Snape, I suspect that he's memorized "The Dark Forces," which may well have been the standard DADA text when he was a student. (His encyclopedic knowledge of the DADA text used at that time is reflected in his detailed answers on the DADA OWL.) But if he read FB when he was at Hogwarts, he's apparently forgotten it, perhaps dismissing it as frivolous, incomplete, and out of date (the first edition was published, according to the introduction, in 1927). Quite possibly, he hasn't read it at all since (again according to the introdudtion), it's a *COMC* textbook, not a DADA text, and he may never have taken that class. (Maybe three-headed dogs aren't included in Trimble's book, which would explain Snape's problems with Fluffy! I can't find them in FB, either, FWIW.) At any rate, my first point is that Snape is just being his snarky self, not undermining Lupin, when he makes the remark about Kappas. He's commenting on the students' homework, not on Lupin's teaching, as he wanders through the class while they read the werewolf chapter. (He doesn't have any Potions to look at and criticize, so he criticizes their homework instead.) My second point is that FB, a COMC text that hasn't even been assigned to the third-years yet despite it's being on the list of books for first-years (Hagrid having pulled a Lockhart and chosen an "amusing" textbook in place of the standard one), is *not* the textbook for Lupin's DADA class, so what that book says about Kappas has no bearing on the students' answers or Snape's comment. It's quite possible that Trimble's book, which Snape, being Snape, would know quite thoroughly, *does* state that Kappas are "more commonly found in Mongolia" than wherever the student located them (perhaps England or the Americas, for all we know). I still think that the original mistake, if it *is* a mistake, is JKR's, and that she chose to "correct" it by having Harry catch Snape in an apparent error that has no bearing whatever on the story but which she, Harry, and some readers would find amusing. (If Snape's statement were "wrong" in the sense that it contradicted the textbook that the class was using, you can bet that Hermione, who would have memorized the assigned chapters, would have either raised her hand and asked him about it ("But, sir, the book says . . .") or mentioned it to Ron and Harry after class if she was afraid of yet another rebuke. That she did neither indicates to me that Snape's version of the Kappas' habitat matches that in Trimble's "Dark Forces." That it doesn't match FB's version is irrelevant, given that FB is not the DADA textbook. Carol, hoping that the time she spent researching and revising this post is worth the trouble! From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Sep 4 20:26:57 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 20:26:57 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH28, THE MISSING MIRROR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184264 > > 1. How did the DEs know that the Trio would apparate into Hogsmeade > and not to any other place? What obvious moment am I missing? Pippin: Voldemort, like Harry, knows that Hogsmeade is the best place for someone who's planning to break into Hogwarts to start. He also knows that the secret passages exit there and might be expecting Harry to try one of them. > 2. Was Aberforth really sincere in his urging of Harry to abandon his quest? That is, did Aberforth really think Harry should just stop? Pippin: As far as Aberforth knows, all Albus's grand plans have failed, leading only to needless deaths, Albus's among them. He doesn't want Harry to be another. His suggestion that Harry "give [the job Dumbledore wanted Harry to do] to someone else" suggests he hasn't quite given up faith in his brother. But he obviously fears that Harry was chosen for his gullibility (or devotion, if you prefer) rather than any special aptitude. > > 3. "he had made his choice when he dug Dobby's grave; he had decided > to continue along the winding, dangerous path indicated to him by > Albus Dumbledore, to accept that he had not been told everything that he wanted to know, but simply to trust" What significance if any do you see in this quote? Pippin: It shows us that Harry doesn't feel manipulated. He's already aware that Dumbledore withheld information, but he believes the path laid out for him will lead to Voldemort's destruction. > > 4. Can you reconcile Elphias Doge's statement that Albus and > Aberforth were friends and that they reestablished cordial > relationship some time after Ariana's death with the way Aberforth > talks to Harry about his brother? Why or why not? Pippin: "Cordial" always sounded a bit distant for a relationship between two brothers -- it's a word for diplomatic talks or labor/management negotiations. I thought it hinted a little at underlying strain, like Ron and Hermione being formal with each other after they've had a bad fight. If Aberforth never knew that Albus was haunted by his sister's death then it doesn't sound as if they ever really talked about it. > > 5. Which happy memory Aberforth uses for his patronus? Heh. Heh. I'm sure he thought of his, er, affection for his goaty friends. > > 6. We hear the words "greater good" from both Aberforth and Harry in > this chapter. Are they talking about the same thing? Why or why not? Pippin: Albus thought he could do it all -- care for Ariana, search for the Hallows, and become a leader of the WW. But he denied to himself how much care Ariana needed, just as he denied how much violence would actually be needed to overthrow the existing order and how eager Gellert was to use it. In addition, Albus was only thinking about the greater good of wizards -- that the far more numerous Muggles would be worse off when they'd been put in their place did not register with him. In those days, he does not seem to have been concerned with rights and freedoms for everyone -- just for the chosen few. Harry, OTOH, has no dependents, only a secondary responsibility for Teddy, and no illusions about the risk to those who fight with him. He's also aware that he can't have it all -- he's given up Ginny, and the pursuit of the Elder Wand. In addition, he knows of very few people who won't be better off if Voldemort is defeated. > > 7. Why was the tunnel undiscovered by Marauders? I'm not sure it existed until Neville needed it. The Marauders never even found the RoR, since it wasn't on the Marauders Map. As Dumbledore said, no one should think they know all the secrets of Hogwarts. > > 8. If Albus' plea in the cave means what Harry tells Aberforth it > meant, does it mean that Albus knew after all who killed Ariana? Pippin: I don't think so. I think the "don't hurt them" plea is meant to be ambiguous, like Hagrid's "Don't hurt 'em" -- we don't know whether Albus was pleading with Gellert or Aberforth, or even Ariana. But at first, when he's saying, "Don't make me, I don't want to" I think he's talking to someone, or something, else. He knows he's about to be forced to relive those memories, and he doesn't want to. He's pleading like Harry does in his nightmares about the graveyard -- perhaps he, like Harry, is pleading with his parents even though in reality that didn't happen. > > 9. Would you want Aberforth to be Harry's mentor? Why or why not? Pippin: Aberforth is a sort of anti-mentor. He's nothing like what a mentor ought to be, except that when it counts, he sends useful guidance to Harry. Of course as a role model, he's a disaster: filthy, rude, and morally suspect. > > 10. By the end of this chapter, we and Harry have heard three > accounts of the Dumbledores, from Doge, Skeeter, and Aberforth. Which account did you find most credible, and why? Pippin: I pretty much believed what Aberforth was saying, though I was still shocked by the extent of Dumbledore's puppet-mastery when it was revealed. But Doge was obviously too kind, and Rita always more interested in promulgating scandal than truth. > > 11. Were you surprised by any of Aberforth's revelations? Did they > affect your view of Albus? > Pippin: I was surprised to be told that Dumbledore was a natural liar. But I think I accepted it. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Sep 4 21:39:15 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 21:39:15 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184265 Carol: (If Snape's > statement were "wrong" in the sense that it contradicted the textbook that the class was using, you can bet that Hermione, who would have memorized the assigned chapters, would have either raised her hand and asked him about it ("But, sir, the book says . . .") or mentioned it to Ron and Harry after class if she was afraid of yet another rebuke. Pippin: Real life has no concern for mood or pacing, but an author who ignored them would appear just as careless of her craft as one with no concern for fictional facts. Indeed, having written, "No one made a sound throughout the rest of the lesson" JKR would have to contradict both the mood she had set and the fictional fact she had just established in order to have Hermione say anything at all. After class, Harry and Hermione are concerned with the cause of Snape's hostility towards Lupin, not the effects, while Ron's mind is entirely on his impending session with the bedpans. The boys' mood is anger and frustration, while Hermione is pensieve, perhaps already wondering about a connection between Lupin and werewolves. It's not the time for Hermione to start in about the habitat of the kappa, and if she did, Ron and Harry would have shut her up. I can well imagine JKR pausing, pen in hand, as she's trying to work out where to introduce info about where kappas actually live, and deciding this might as well go in a different book, just as she's said she's saved things for the Encyclopedia. It's not as if Harry needs additional reasons to ignore Snape. Pippin admiring Carol's diligent research, as always From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 5 00:04:01 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 00:04:01 -0000 Subject: Teachers WAS:Re: SPOILERS: School Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > I defer to zanooda for inconsistencies related to mokes > and mokeskin! zanooda: LOL! I have no idea why such a negligible question (Mokes: lizards or donkeys?) bugs me so much, while the rest of the people aren't even slightly interested :-). I really wish JKR explained what she meant on her website though :-). From jeffreyakatz at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 5 16:03:48 2008 From: jeffreyakatz at sbcglobal.net (yak1605522) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 16:03:48 -0000 Subject: Lavender Brown's personality and an unaspected uranus on her astrological chart Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184267 In chapter 13 of Book 4, Professor Trewlaney sets the divination class at constructing charts that show the position of the planets at the moment of each student's birth, to show how this influences the life of each of the students. During this activity, Lavender Brown states that her chart includes an unaspected planet, the identity of which Professor Trewlaney confirms to be Uranus. What does the influence of Uranus mean, in astrology? What does Uranus' influence mean when it is unaspected? How do we see these traits/qualities in the personality of Lavender and in the things that happen to her throughout the series? yak From scarah at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 05:00:24 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 05:00:24 -0000 Subject: Lavender Brown's personality and an unaspected uranus on her astrological chart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184268 yak: > In chapter 13 of Book 4, Professor Trewlaney sets the divination class > at constructing charts that show the position of the planets at the > moment of each student's birth, to show how this influences the life of > each of the students. During this activity, Lavender Brown states that > her chart includes an unaspected planet, the identity of which > Professor Trewlaney confirms to be Uranus. > > What does the influence of Uranus mean, in astrology? What does Uranus' > influence mean when it is unaspected? How do we see these > traits/qualities in the personality of Lavender and in the things that > happen to her throughout the series? Sarah: >From everything I've been able to search (I'm no astrologer), unaspected Uranus seems concerned with individuality, rebelliousness, and an appreciation for aesthetics. I'm not sure about the rest, but that last sounds like our Lavender. I always thought it was just there as an opening for Ron to make his off-color joke about it. Which I would add, he reprises in OOTP, but this time with Harry as the subject. OOTP: 'Harry, we saw Uranus up close!' said Ron, still giggling feebly. 'Get it, Harry? We saw Uranus - ha ha ha -' Sarah: Even Harry makes a form of it. OOTP: [Ron and Harry discuss not having to take Divination any longer] 'Yeah,' said Harry. 'No more pretending we care what happens when Jupiter and Uranus get too friendly.' Sarah: I think all the Uranus stuff is just a running joke. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 6 17:11:18 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 17:11:18 -0000 Subject: Lavender Brown's personality and an unaspected uranus on her astrological ch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184269 yak asked: > > In chapter 13 of Book 4, Professor Trewlaney sets the divination class at constructing charts that show the position of the planets at the moment of each student's birth, to show how this influences the life of each of the students. During this activity, Lavender Brown states that her chart includes an unaspected planet, the identity of which Professor Trewlaney confirms to be Uranus. > > > > What does the influence of Uranus mean, in astrology? What does Uranus' influence mean when it is unaspected? How do we see these traits/qualities in the personality of Lavender and in the things that happen to her throughout the series? > Sarah responded: > From everything I've been able to search (I'm no astrologer), unaspected Uranus seems concerned with individuality, rebelliousness, and an appreciation for aesthetics. I'm not sure about the rest, but that last sounds like our Lavender. > > I always thought it was just there as an opening for Ron to make his off-color joke about it. Which I would add, he reprises in OOTP, but this time with Harry as the subject. > I think all the Uranus stuff is just a running joke. Carol adds: First, I agree that the Uranus references are a running joke that JKR apparently thinks will appeal to slightly older kids than all the bogey references in the earlier books. (Anyone remember the movie "E.T.," in which young Elliott doesn't get an older boy's Uranus joke?) But also I think it helps to understand what an unaspected planet is. Not being an astrologer either, and not finding any readily intelligible definitions of "unaspected" planet online, I decided to find out what "aspected" meant. I found this definition for "aspect" at Merriam-Webster Online: "Main Entry: as?pect Pronunciation: \as-pekt\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Latin aspectus, from aspicere to look at, from ad- + specere to look ? more at spy Date: 14th century 1 a: the position of planets or stars with respect to one another held by astrologers to influence human affairs; also: the apparent position (as conjunction) of a body in the solar system with respect to the sun" Aside: Interesting that the word "aspect," which we generally use to mean a particular part of a question or issue ("that aspect of the question") actually comes from astrology! At any rate, based on this definition, an unaspected planet would apparently be one that wasn't aligned with the others and yet appears on the person's chart. (Maybe all planets appear on the chart, but the unaspected planet doesn't line up in any way with any other planet.) Here's a link to more information on unaspected planets in relation to natal charts (birth charts), FWIW: http://www.astrologyclub.org/articles/unaspected/unaspected.htm The most important sentence appears to be this one: "Usually it [the unaspected planet] is indicative, according to the planet, sign and house involved, of characteristics or a feature in the life of the person which it is difficult, or perhaps not attempted, to integrate with the rest of the nature or life-pattern." An unaspected planet in Snape's chart, for example, might be said to account for his love for Lily and loyalty to Dumbledore when everything else in his chart indicated that he should be a Death Eater. (I'm making this up; choose your own illustration if you don't like mine.) At any rate, I suspect that Lavender's unaspected planet is even less important than Trelawney's prediction that the thing Lavender dreaded would happpen on October 16, or whatever the date was. Lavender (who must be a Half-Blood to have such a pet--I originally thought that she was a Muggle-born) gets the news that her baby rabbit has been killed by a fox. That incident, of course, is a set-up for Hermione's skepticism but also, maybe, a hint that Trelawney has some sort of predictive powers despite being to all appearances an old fraud. IMO, it has less to do with Lavender herself (except to show her girlishness, her friendship with Parvati, and her somewhat antagonistic relationship with Hermione) than with Trelawney, whose predictive powers will play a role again with regard to the lightning-struck tower. Carol, thanking yak for introducing a topic that, IIRC, hasn't been discussed before, or at least, not frequently From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 6 20:08:28 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:08:28 -0000 Subject: Lavender Brown's personality and an unaspected uranus on her astrological ch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184270 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > > yak asked: > > > What does the influence of Uranus mean, in astrology? What does > Uranus' influence mean when it is unaspected? How do we see these > traits/qualities in the personality of Lavender and in the things that > happen to her throughout the series? Montavilla47: Just to add a bit more useless information: An aspected planet would be one that it's a certain number of degrees from another. The more important numbers are 60, 90, or 180 degrees. 60 degree angles are thought to be more harmonious, while 90 degrees (or crossed) angles are more difficult. 180 degrees puts the two planets in opposition, which is the most difficult angle of all. Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are the three outermost planets and their wide, slow orbits mean that they tend to influence generations rather than individuals. If, for example, Lavender's Uranus was in, say, Libra when she was born, it would also be in Libra for Harry, Ron, Hermione, and all the other kids for probably a good five-ten years in either direction. But, the inner planets (Mercury, Mars, Venus, Jupiter, the Sun and Moon), travel more quickly and are in different zones for all the students in class-- with the exceptions of twins and possibly Neville and Harry, who were born only a day apart. (Neville and Harry's moons would be different, as well as their ascendents, but their suns would only be a degree or so off, and all their other planets would be pretty much identical). So, when Lavender says her Uranus is unaspected, it means that none of her other planets or significant nodes are roughly 60, 90, or 180 degrees away from Uranus on her chart. That's not exactly unusual. In any birth chart (which is probably what the students are working on), there can be several planets which are unaspected. And, astrologically speaking, it means pretty much nothing. Montavilla47 From catlady at wicca.net Sun Sep 7 00:32:21 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 00:32:21 -0000 Subject: Arianna / Thestral/Selkies/Lavender Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184271 Alla summarized Chapter 28 in : << [Aberforth] wanted to quit school and care for Ariana, but Albus insisted that he should finish his education. >> Of course, in our RL, that is the only adult and responsible position that Albus could have taken in that matter -- in our RL, there is no value more important than that all children finish high school. But in the Potterverse wizarding world, it turned out to be the wrong decision. Aberforth didn't need NEWTs to raise goats and run a bar, and he would have taken better care of Arianna than Albus did. If Albus had been elsewhere, he wouldn't have gotten entangled with Grindelwald and Arianna wouldn't have died. 'Elsewhere' couldn't have been his planned Grand Tour - every gossiping tongue would have condemned Albus if he had left two minors alone at home so he could sight-see - but it could have been continuing his education by working for some of those famous pen-pals of his. Pippin wrote in : << future generations of wizarding children will write "has Harry read this book?" beside the thestral entry >> Not beside the entry in the Muggle edition, which says nothing about thestrals having reptilian scales and skeletal faces, and eating meat, which is not normal for horses. Indeed, when FB was published, listies envisioned thestrals as magnificent black Pegasi like the daddy Pegasus in FANTASIA except maybe with a flowing mane, and that the invisibility was something the thestral could turn on and off at will. Carol wrote in : << why "selkies" is lowercased and "Merrows" is capitalized, I can't guess) >> Rowling capitalized words that she thought she had invented and lowercased words that she thought already existed. I'm more accustomed to spelling it 'silkie' but American Heritage Dictionary has it as 'selkie', coming from a dimunitive of 'seal'. I also think there's a difference between changing shape between seal and human versus always being the shape human from the waist up and fish from the waist down, but that's just a Muggle opinion. Carol wrote in : << [Lavender] must be a Half-Blood to have such a pet -- I originally thought that she was a Muggle-born) >> A witch can have a pet bunny as suitably as a pet cat, dog, rat, or toad. The aspect (!) that made me think she was Muggleborn was that she had *believed* the Hogwarts letter that said students could bring a cat, owl, or toad, and not bought her bunny to school. Even a Muggleborn should have been able to figure out, in two years, that Ron's rat and Lee's tarantula weren't breaking any rules. Also in PoA, another clue that Lavender was not raised in the wizarding world is when Miss Trelawney told Harry that he had the Grim. "He could tell that he wasn't the only one who didn't understand; Dean Thomas shrugged at him and Lavender Brown looked puzzled, but nearly everybody else clapped their hands to their mouths in horror." From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Sep 7 16:57:14 2008 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 7 Sep 2008 16:57:14 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/7/2008, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1220806634.9.18915.m52@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184272 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday September 7, 2008 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2008 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Sep 8 12:48:09 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 12:48:09 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH28, THE MISSING MIRROR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184273 Potioncat: Very good discussion, Alla! You've pulled from several books to create thought provoking questions about this chapter. I wish I had time to go back and re-read sections of the books before answering. > Alla: > So what was confusing to me is that if ( and only if that means what > Harry thinks that means) Albus' do not hurt them, hurt me instead > means that he sees Grindelwald hurting Ariana, does it not imply that > Grindelwald after all was the one who killed her? Potioncat: It's not clear if the how potion makes the victim relive their worst memory, or intensifies his worst memory, or if that's what it does at all. Albus was delirius. But, we already know GG used Cruciatus on Aberforth. (Did he Cruciate Ariana too?) At some point DD and GG were dueling and it was then that Ariana was killed. So, no. I don't think DD knows which one of them killed her. It sounds like the death was an accident rather than intended. But I think DD takes responsibility for it, just like Sirius takes responsibilty for James's and Lily's deaths. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Sep 8 18:47:59 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:47:59 -0000 Subject: Arianna / Thestral/Selkies/Lavender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184274 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > Of course, in our RL, that is the only adult and responsible position > that Albus could have taken in that matter -- in our RL, there is no > value more important than that all children finish high school. But in the Potterverse wizarding world, it turned out to be the wrong > decision. Aberforth didn't need NEWTs to raise goats and run a bar, > and he would have taken better care of Arianna than Albus did. Pippin: Maybe you don't need NEWTs to run a bar, (actually a small inn) but you probably need some kind of apprenticeship. Would that have been available to Aberforth with Arianna in tow? I think that much as he would not like to think it, Arianna's death also freed Aberforth to pursue his dreams, modest as they were, which I'm sure added to his sense of guilt. > Pippin wrote in > : > > << future generations of wizarding children will write "has Harry read this book?" beside the thestral entry >> Catlady: > Not beside the entry in the Muggle edition, which says nothing about > thestrals having reptilian scales and skeletal faces, and eating meat, which is not normal for horses. Pippin: Scamander had probably never seen a thestral, (they are, or were, rare) and can perhaps be forgiven for not knowing what they look like, since people who think they are unlucky would not want to talk about them. I suppose he's seen death -- but maybe he's spent all his time among animals, whose deaths apparently don't count. I wonder if a wizard photo of a thestral could be seen by someone who can't see the thestral itself? Obviously Scamander hadn't visited Hogwarts recently, or he would know about the giant spiders (whose presence can now be confirmed by many witnesses, not just Ron and Harry) as well as the domesticated thestrals bred by Hagrid. But wizard-born children won't have seen Fantasia and wouldn't have our preconceived idea about what a black flying horse ought to look like. Harry wouldn't either. The Dursleys would certainly never have allowed Dudley to watch it, since it stars Mickey as a wizard. But really, I am for once willing to say I don't think JKR thought it through. I'll buy the appearance only once the death has sunk in. But if the skies over Hogwarts are truly populated by enough thestrals to pull the carriages for a thousand students, over a hundred beasties, that is, each the size of a draft horse, plus their young -- well, all I can say is, I wouldn't go outside without an umbrella. And a pair of wellies. > > Carol wrote in > : > > << why "selkies" is lowercased and "Merrows" is capitalized, I can't > guess) >> > > Rowling capitalized words that she thought she had invented and > lowercased words that she thought already existed. Pippin: "Merrow" is traditional, for the Irish merfolk. Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 8 20:35:30 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 20:35:30 -0000 Subject: Acromantulas (Was: Arianna / Thestral/Selkies/Lavender) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184275 Pippin wrote: >,snip> > Obviously Scamander hadn't visited Hogwarts recently, or he would know about the giant spiders (whose presence can now be confirmed by many witnesses, not just Ron and Harry) as well as the domesticated thestrals bred by Hagrid. Carol responds: Since Newt Scamander was born in 1897, he probably didn't do a lot of traveling (unless he was as hardy as Dumbledore). And even if he had visited Hogwarts, neither Hagrid nor his protector, DD, was likely to let the author of the ban on experimental breeding (FB vi) know about the colony of Acromantulas. The rumor might have been started when Hagrid was expelled in (IIRC) June 1943, but, of course, he didn't acquire Mosag (Aragog's wife) until some time later. The Forbidden Forest was off limits to students, only a few of whom (MWPP, the Weasley Twins) apparently broke the ban on purpose. Draco and Neville, who went there unwillingly for a detention, didn't see the Acromantulas, and Harry and Ron, who "follow[ed] the spiders," weren't about to reveal what they had seen and get Hagrid in trouble. So the rumor that a colony existed in Scotland (not necessarily at Hogwarts) remained unconfirmed. Of course, after the Battle of Hogwarts, that would change (assuming that any spiders remained alive after the battle). I had the idea, perhaps mistaken, that their lair had been destroyed, and I doubt that any parents would want their children to attend Hogwarts until the entire colony had been wiped out. BTW, the spiders that Harry and Ron followed can't be baby Acromantulas, considering that the eggs from which they're hatched are as big as beach balls (FB 1), so even the babies would be recognizable on sight and presumably destroyed, whatever Hagrid's feelings in the matter might be (and "Don't hurt 'em!" is one of those ambiguous lines that can be read either way). Carol, sincerely hoping that every trace of the murderous, cannibalistic brutes was wiped out From lougarry33 at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 9 05:05:27 2008 From: lougarry33 at yahoo.co.uk (Suzanne Sinclair) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 05:05:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Acromantula Message-ID: <806492.53662.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184276 Carol: Since Newt Scamander was born in 1897, he probably didn't do a lot of traveling (unless he was as hardy as Dumbledore). Suzanne: 'About the Author' in FB says: 'Mr Scamander's work with the Dragon Research and Restraint Bureau led to many research trips abroad . . . ' - which suggests, on the contrary, that he did travel extensively.? While working with the Hebridean Black it is quite possible that he visited Hogwarts, especially since - as he he asked Dumbledore to write the foward for the Comic Relief edition - we can assume that he and Dumbledore are acquainted. Carol: So the rumor that a colony existed in Scotland (not necessarily at Hogwarts) remained unconfirmed. Of course, after the Battle of Hogwarts, that would change (assuming that any spiders remained alive after the battle). Suzanne: Surely this would have changed after the Triwizard Tournament, with the appearance of an Acromantula in the maze.? I remember a reference to the Sphinx being specially imported but no-one seemed to question the Acromantula being easily to hand. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Sep 9 21:35:36 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 21:35:36 -0000 Subject: Acromantulas (Was: Arianna / Thestral/Selkies/Lavender) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184277 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: I had the idea, perhaps mistaken, that their lair > had been destroyed, and I doubt that any parents would want their > children to attend Hogwarts until the entire colony had been wiped > out. > Carol, sincerely hoping that every trace of the murderous, > cannibalistic brutes was wiped out > Pippin: Wiping them out would be tossing the baby with the bath water, since their venom is highly valuable. I don't recall if canon mentions what it's used for, but it must be important, or wizards wouldn't pay premium prices to get it. Why would the parents object to acromantulas if they don't object to werewolves and centaurs, also highly dangerous if precautions are not taken? The acromantulas like the dark and quiet; normally they stay far away from the bustling, brightly lit castle and don't attack unless they're disturbed in their lair. The ones who invaded the school must have been under the Imperius Curse, otherwise they'd have been just as dangerous to the Death Eaters. Pippin From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 9 22:54:33 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 22:54:33 -0000 Subject: Acromantula In-Reply-To: <806492.53662.qm@web27403.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184278 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Sinclair wrote: > Surely this would have changed after the Triwizard Tournament, > with the appearance of an Acromantula in the maze.?? I remember > a reference to the Sphinx being specially imported but no-one > seemed to question the Acromantula being easily to hand. zanooda: If some teachers and Ministry workers knew about the Acromantula, they were not talking :-), because in HBP Slughorn didn't know for sure about the spiders in the forest, he only heard "rumors" about them. And that's with all his contacts at the Ministry :-)! As for the students, I'm sure that only Harry and Cedric saw the spider in the maze, Fleur and Viktor didn't get far enough to encounter it. I also don't believe that the Ministry specifically "ordered" an Acromantula for the maze, like they did the Sphinx. I think they just asked Hagrid: "Do you have any dangerous beasts to provide for the maze?" (duh! :-)) - and here we go, enter a Screwt and an Acromantula :-)! From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Sep 10 02:37:25 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 02:37:25 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH28, THE MISSING MIRROR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184279 > 1. How did the DEs know that the Trio would apparate into Hogsmeade > and not to any other place? What obvious moment am I missing? Potioncat: I think the alarm was set up as a precaution. As someone else has said, it would be the best place to get to Hogwarts. > > 2. Was Aberforth really sincere in his urging of Harry to abandon his > quest? That is, did Aberforth really think Harry should just stop? Potioncat: I think he was sincere. He had given up. Also, he doesn't know about the prophecy. > > 3. "he had made his choice when he dug Dobby's grave; he had decided > to continue along the winding, dangerous path indicated to him by > Albus Dumbledore, to accept that he had not been told everything that > he wanted to know, but simply to trust" What significance if any do > you see in this quote? Potioncat: Except for the digging Dobby's grave part, it could be Snape. Both of them have had...will have had... to go through the same series of decisions. > > 4. Can you reconcile Elphias Doge's statement that Albus and > Aberforth were friends and that they reestablished cordial > relationship some time after Ariana's death with the way Aberforth > talks to Harry about his brother? Why or why not? Potioncat: Cordial probably does describe their public behavior and it seems they had re-established their relationship. That doesn't mean they agreed or got along well. But it does mean they agreed to connect. > > 5. Which happy memory Aberforth uses for his patronus? I'm not sure. Are you thinking something goat related? Remember, the happy thought doesn't produce the form of the Patronus. I think he has a happy thought about Ariana. There was a thread a long time ago--before DH--that associated her name with goats. All very innocent and sweet. But I can't find it now. When I try to google her name, I don't find any goat connection. JKR's interviews have made this an uncomfortable topic--at least for me. > > 10. By the end of this chapter, we and Harry have heard three > accounts of the Dumbledores, from Doge, Skeeter, and Aberforth. Which > account did you find most credible, and why? Potioncat: Each person has brought something to the telling. I'd like to go back and read each one before answering. > > 11. Were you surprised by any of Aberforth's revelations? Did they > affect your view of Albus? Potioncat: By this point, Albus Dumbledore has fallen far from the pedestal many of us once thought he stood on. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 10 02:41:41 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 02:41:41 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH28, THE MISSING MIRROR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184280 Alla: > > 5. Which happy memory Aberforth uses for his patronus? Potioncat: > I'm not sure. Are you thinking something goat related? Remember, the > happy thought doesn't produce the form of the Patronus. I think he > has a happy thought about Ariana. Alla: Right, I know. This was totally speculation question and I have no idea, but I would like to believe that it is a happy memory not just about Ariana, but when all of them three kids had been happy together with their parents. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 10 02:51:09 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 02:51:09 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH28, THE MISSING MIRROR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184281 Alla: I figure I will share some of my tentative answers I had in mind when I wrote some questions, because for some of them I had no clue. Hmmm, and I did not combine this answer with the previous one why exactly? > 2. Was Aberforth really sincere in his urging of Harry to abandon his > quest? That is, did Aberforth really think Harry should just stop? Alla: See, for the longest time I have not had a slightest hesitation that Aberforth was absolutely sincere and I cheered him on his every word. I still do not think that he was manipulating Harry or anything and really do think that he was sincere. But having said that, sometimes I do think that maybe he indeed was testing Harry's resolve to continue fighting. I mean, I do not mean that he was testing Harry for his own manipulative purposes like Albus would have done or anything like that. I just speculate ( and honestly, I am not sure, he is straightforward guy and I am most likely very wrong) that he wanted to see for himself how strong this Boy who lived really is. Let me explain how I encountered that tiny doubt about whether Aberforth was sincere. It is just for someone who claims to give up fighting and that everything is done and over with, he really does not give up, no? He continues helping Neville and other kids, and I just started wondering when I was doing questions for this chapter. > 6. We hear the words "greater good" from both Aberforth and Harry in > this chapter. Are they talking about the same thing? Why or why not? Alla: I agree that they are not talking about same thing at all and I really do like Harry's definition of the greater good much better ( definition as I perceive it that Harry has), but I also think that Aberforth was being sarcastic about Albus' definition of greater good and that he really has the same one as Harry has. Speculating again. > 10. By the end of this chapter, we and Harry have heard three > accounts of the Dumbledores, from Doge, Skeeter, and Aberforth. Which > account did you find most credible, and why? Alla: Funny I completely believed Aberforth, except that I thought for quite some time that maybe Albus knew that his brother killed Ariana and Aberforth blocked it out. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 10 23:30:20 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 23:30:20 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184282 Yes, after chapter 20 or so I abandoned OOP reread. I firmly believe in rereading should be enjoyable, not torturous. Anyways, it just so happened that my last post DH reread started when I was home and I am now home again and recovering again, lol. So may I just say how very different Unbreakable Vow now reads? I mean, it is still to me a very finely done chapter, but all the excitement and intrigue is so very gone. I mean, it is just that I know the answer now and I cannot wonder - OMG, is he evil, is he not? Is he? Is he? I am feeling nostalgic about those discussions. Anyways, I maybe in the very DUH mood today, but why did Snape take that lovely vow? ;) Bear with me, I am only half joking. I mean, I know now that he did not take it because he really wanted to kill Dumbledore of course. But here is what I am asking and again, I know that for many this will come as obvious question, nevertheless I realized that I am not completely clear. Remember conversation in Prince memory about the plan and Malfoy? of course you do. So I suppose I am not hundred percent sure if this conversation took place when UV already happened or not, accordingly my question is did he take the vow when he already knew that Dumbledore wants him to do him in and accordingly he took the vow solely to protect Malfoy or did he take the vow to find out the plan without being quite sure what's going to happen next? Um, thanks guys, sorry for being slow today and missing something very obvious. Alla From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Sep 11 00:15:01 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:15:01 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184283 > So I suppose I am not hundred percent sure if this conversation took > place when UV already happened or not, accordingly my question is did > he take the vow when he already knew that Dumbledore wants him to do > him in and accordingly he took the vow solely to protect Malfoy or > did he take the vow to find out the plan without being quite sure > what's going to happen next? > Pippin: Snape says in Spinner's End that Dumbledore has "sustained a serious injury." Dumbledore's hand is damaged and he is wearing the ring with its cracked stone when he retrieves Harry, evidently that same night. Therefore, Snape had already agreed that he would eventually kill Dumbledore. We can also see that Snape was telling Narcissa and Bella the truth when he said he knew of The Plan. But Snape did not have any details on how The Plan was to be executed, and Dumbledore had made it Snape's "first priority" to find out what Draco was up to. Snape needed to gain Narcissa's trust. Also, she was frightened and dangerous, and who knows what harm she might have done to herself or to Draco if Snape had not been williing to help her? Pippin From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 00:40:48 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 00:40:48 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184284 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > my question is did he take the vow when he already knew that > Dumbledore wants him to do him in and accordingly he took the > vow solely to protect Malfoy or did he take the vow to find > out the plan without being quite sure what's going to happen next? Somehow it always seemed to me that the action of the first four chapters of HBP takes place on the same evening. Of course we can't be sure, but it definitely feels this way :-). If this is true, then Snape already promised to DD to kill him by the time he took the UV. Snape gave his promise to DD right after DD was injured by the ring curse, but when DD came for Harry in "Will and Won't", he already had this injury. This means that Snape and DD's conversation already happened some time before that evening. It could be the other way around only if the events in Spinner's End took place at least a few days earlier than the events in "Will and Won't" and "Horace Slughorn", which doesn't seem to be the case, IMO. zanooda, returning to the preparations for another hurricane ... ;-(. From scarah at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 01:56:52 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 01:56:52 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184285 > Pippin: > > Snape says in Spinner's End that Dumbledore has "sustained a serious injury." > Dumbledore's hand is damaged and he is wearing the ring with its cracked stone when he > retrieves Harry, evidently that same night. Therefore, Snape had already agreed that he > would eventually kill Dumbledore. We can also see that Snape was telling Narcissa and > Bella the truth when he said he knew of The Plan. Sarah: I agree with Pippin that Dumbledore had already shown up with the crispy hand and Snape had put his temporary patch on the ring curse. And since DH, I now also agree that Snape did know of the plan, since he and Dumbledore discussed it in the same sitting as the ring curse patch was applied. Pre-DH, I would not have agreed with that second part. Snape is kind of waffling around about "trying" to help Draco with his task, until this line: "His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's tear-filled blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand." In the next sentence after that, Snape heartily agrees to make the Vow. It all seemed to fit that he was bluffing up until that moment. It's reasonable to assume that he knows Narcissa to be no Occlumens, since his guess is that it was Bellatrix who taught Draco. He changes his tune immediately after a cheesy line about him staring into Narcissa's eyes, so I figured that's what that was about. But DH showed he did know the plan. Absent obvious evidence, I'm usually prone to give the benefit of the doubt to the author not making a mistake. But in this case, I wonder if maybe it is one, though it's a very minor matter. As for the original question from Alla, yes, I think Snape agreed to the Vow mainly because he could without sacrificing anything additional that he hadn't promised to do already anyway, and to help reinforce the support of the Malfoys and get Bellatrix off his back a little. Sarah From lizzyben04 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 18:58:05 2008 From: lizzyben04 at yahoo.com (lizzyben04) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:58:05 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184286 > Sarah: > Pre-DH, I would not have agreed with that second part. Snape is kind > of waffling around about "trying" to help Draco with his task, until > this line: "His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's tear-filled > blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand." In the next sentence > after that, Snape heartily agrees to make the Vow. It all seemed to > fit that he was bluffing up until that moment. It's reasonable to > assume that he knows Narcissa to be no Occlumens, since his guess is > that it was Bellatrix who taught Draco. He changes his tune > immediately after a cheesy line about him staring into Narcissa's > eyes, so I figured that's what that was about. But DH showed he did > know the plan. > > Absent obvious evidence, I'm usually prone to give the benefit of the > doubt to the author not making a mistake. But in this case, I wonder > if maybe it is one, though it's a very minor matter. lizzyben: I kind of think that that was the moment where Snape actually became genuinely moved by Narcissa's predicament. In DH, we see that Snape did feel bad for the Malfoys, who had to endure the "slow torture" of watching Draco fail at his task. Plus, there's also the fact that he was unable to protect another mother (Lily). Snape was bluffing up till then, but when Narcissa tearfully asked for the vow, Snape had a real emotional reaction. And he genuinely felt compelled to take the vow to reassure her & protect Draco. It's almost gallant, like a knight pledging allegiance to his Lady; which is pretty much what he did with Lily as well. It's that Snape/"Prince" duality. Actually, looking back now, he's quite kind to Narcissa throughout that chapter. Pre-DH, we might think that was sarcasm or bluffing, but now I think it was basically genuine. lizzyben From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 21:21:34 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 21:21:34 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184287 > Pippin: > > Snape says in Spinner's End that Dumbledore has "sustained a serious injury." > Dumbledore's hand is damaged and he is wearing the ring with its cracked stone when he > retrieves Harry, evidently that same night. Alla: Wait, so we are absolutely sure that when he said injury he meant the ring injury? I mean, I know that he was not really injured after the fight in MoM with Voldemort, but still, it is a given that this is what the reference was to? Pippin: Therefore, Snape had already agreed that he > would eventually kill Dumbledore. We can also see that Snape was telling Narcissa and > Bella the truth when he said he knew of The Plan. Alla: Right, I can see that. He knows of the Plan from Dumbledore, not from Voldemort, right? Sorry, I guess I still am slow. Pippin: > But Snape did not have any details on how The Plan was to be executed, and Dumbledore > had made it Snape's "first priority" to find out what Draco was up to. Snape needed to gain > Narcissa's trust. Also, she was frightened and dangerous, and who knows what harm she > might have done to herself or to Draco if Snape had not been williing to help her? Alla: So back to my original question - you think he took the Vow to find out precisely what Draco will be up to and protect him and Narcissa? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 21:25:12 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 21:25:12 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184288 > Sarah: > > He changes his tune > immediately after a cheesy line about him staring into Narcissa's > eyes, so I figured that's what that was about. But DH showed he did > know the plan. Alla: Same question. From Dumbledore, right? We do not have any independent support for the premise that Voldemort already told Snape about the plan, yes? Sarah: > Absent obvious evidence, I'm usually prone to give the benefit of the > doubt to the author not making a mistake. But in this case, I wonder > if maybe it is one, though it's a very minor matter. Alla: I am not sure I follow here. What mistake, could you clarify please? Thank you. From leahstill at hotmail.com Thu Sep 11 22:48:54 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:48:54 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184289 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: Alla: Wait, so we are absolutely sure that when he said injury he meant the ring injury? I mean, I know that he was not really injured after the fight in MoM with Voldemort, but still, it is a given that this is what the reference was to? Leah: It's not a given, in that it is never actually confirmed in the text that this is the injury DD has sustained, but the great likelihood is that it is the ring injury because: (a)if Snape were lying about there being any injury at all,that would firstly be very risky because Voldemort might find that out from another source, and secondly it would be pretty coincidental for DD then to actually sustain a serious injury. (b) if it is a different injury that is being referred to, that injury was not sustained at the Ministry, because Snape refers to the injury being received 'after' the duel with Voldemort, which shook DD. The Ministry battle took place in June IIRC and Spinners End probably took place around Harry's birthday at the end of July, so DD would have to have sustained two serious injuries in the space of about a month, one of which we are never told about. That doesn't seem very likely. There is also the point that there is absolutely no need for Snape to mention Dumbledore's injury to Bellatrix (he would obviously have had to tell Voldemort but that's different). Snape is trying to convince Bellatrix that he is loyal; Dumbledore's injury has nothing to do with that, and I think that little bit of speech was inserted precisely so that, when read eventually in conjunction with 'The Prince's Tale', it would demonstrate that Snape had promised to kill Dumbledore before taking the vow. > > Alla: > > Same question. From Dumbledore, right? We do not have any independent > support for the premise that Voldemort already told Snape about the > plan, yes? Leah: How would Dumbledore know of the plan except from Snape, his spy? If Snape doesn't know of the plan until Dumbledore tells him, then it is not much use Dumbledore keeping him as a spy (). It is Snape's job to find out what Lord Voldemort is saying to his Death Eaters. Since Bellatrix says that the plan is top secret, the only real way Snape could have learned of it is through Voldemort. The way in which Dumbledore and Snape discuss the plan also strongly suggests this is not the first time they have discussed it. Dumbledore says 'I refer to the plan...' as if Snape knows what he's talking about and Snape discusses the true plot behind the plan, which he seems to have reflected on. Why did Snape take the vow? To convince Bellatrix of his loyalty, to protect his friends' son, to perhaps gain back Draco's trust and therefore find out more about what Draco was planning, and as lizzyben says, because here was a woman whom Snape seems to care about, who has a son in danger, and Snape is making amends for past mistakes in the same way that he is protecting Harry for Lily. Could be any or all of these. Leah From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 23:07:20 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 23:07:20 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184290 > Leah: > It's not a given, in that it is never actually confirmed in the text > that this is the injury DD has sustained, but the great likelihood > is that it is the ring injury because: >> There is also the point that there is absolutely > no need for Snape to mention Dumbledore's injury to Bellatrix (he > would obviously have had to tell Voldemort but that's different). > Snape is trying to convince Bellatrix that he is loyal; Dumbledore's > injury has nothing to do with that, and I think that little bit of > speech was inserted precisely so that, when read eventually in > conjunction with 'The Prince's Tale', it would demonstrate that > Snape had promised to kill Dumbledore before taking the vow. Alla: I snipped your good reasons and yes, I agree that Snape did not need to mention it to Bella in the first place, so I think I am convinced that this was the ring injury. And yes, it makes sense that it was inserted to show that Snape had promised to kill Dumbledore before taking the vow. I did not doubt that part after reading DH :-). I mean, I did not doubt that Snape promised to kill Dumbledore before taking the vow. I was just confused about the ring injury because I did not connect how it all fits in the timeline, I think. In any event, am convinced about that part, thank you. > > > > > > Alla: > > > > Same question. From Dumbledore, right? We do not have any > independent > > support for the premise that Voldemort already told Snape about > the > > plan, yes? > > Leah: How would Dumbledore know of the plan except from Snape, his > spy? If Snape doesn't know of the plan until Dumbledore > tells him, then it is not much use Dumbledore keeping him as a spy > (). Alla: Oh LOL, now that is a major DUH moment indeed. Unless of course Dumbledore had other spies which we never knew about, hehe. I kept thinking that those Spies mentioned by Fudge will appear, but since they are not, sure, for Dumbledore to know Snape had to learn from Voldemort. Leah: > Why did Snape take the vow? To convince Bellatrix of his loyalty, > to protect his friends' son, to perhaps gain back Draco's trust and > therefore find out more about what Draco was planning, and as > lizzyben says, because here was a woman whom Snape seems to care > about, who has a son in danger, > and Snape is making amends for past mistakes in the same way that he > is protecting Harry for Lily. Could be any or all of these. > > Alla: Right, I guess I was just thinking that maybe I missed definite pointer to one of them and since I was not hundred percent sure on how much Snape knew about plan details, I figured maybe he wanted to learn those as well. But of course, any one of those will do. From scarah at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 00:37:58 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 00:37:58 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184291 (Snip question about how Snape found out about the plan that I think was settled in other messages) > > Sarah: > > Absent obvious evidence, I'm usually prone to give the benefit of > the > > doubt to the author not making a mistake. But in this case, I > wonder > > if maybe it is one, though it's a very minor matter. > > > Alla: > > > I am not sure I follow here. What mistake, could you clarify please? > > Thank you. Sarah: Oh, sure, sorry. I mean that with only HBP to work with, it really seemed to me that Snape only found out about the plan from Narcissa the moment he (I figured at the time) used Legilimency on her. And that up until that second, he really was bluffing about knowing what the plan was at all. My support for this was that Snape acts completely hesitant to make any promises, right up until the line about him staring in her eyes. The very next sentence, he agrees straight away, in no uncertain terms, to take the Vow. Then DH came along and showed Snape talking to Dumbledore all about the plan, at a time prior to Spinner's End. So he did already know it. But the clues in Spinner's End really seemed to suggest something different, so I thought maybe JK forgot about having set that up. I'm not too fussed either way about this being a flint or not, it's just something I thought I'd mention. It just makes Snape's behavior in Spinner's End slightly more confusing to me than if it had turned out that Snape only found out the plan right there when he read it from Narcissa's mind. No big deal, just a very minor detail. If it weren't for that one thing, Spinner's End would be in my running for the best-conceived Harry Potter chapter. That is, if you don't count the fact that it exists. Its mere presence is kind of a giveaway, if we were supposed to think at the end of HBP that the big shocker ending was that Snape was evil. There was no chapter 2 of GOF where Moody talked about how he was actually Barty Jr, no chapter 2 of PS/SS where Quirrell explained that Voldemort was on the back of his head, etc. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Sep 12 01:26:53 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 01:26:53 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184292 > Alla: > > Oh LOL, now that is a major DUH moment indeed. Unless of course > Dumbledore had other spies which we never knew about, hehe. I kept > thinking that those Spies mentioned by Fudge will appear, but since > they are not, sure, for Dumbledore to know Snape had to learn from > Voldemort. Pippin: Oh, we got loads of other spies. Arthur and Kingsley spying on the Ministry, Lupin spying on werewolves, Mrs. Figg spying on Little Whinging, Mundungus and Aberforth spying on the WW's underworld, and so on. But Snape seems to have been the only one who had Voldemort's confidence. > Leah: > > Why did Snape take the vow? Could be any or all of these. > > Pippin: It puts Snape into the same position as Dumbledore when Snape begged him to save Lily, reinforced by the water imagery. Just like Snape before her, Narcissa does not realize that she would be helped in any case. I think we are meant to look to Dumbledore for a clue to Snape's feelings: pity for Narcissa, mingled with disgust at her lack of concern for other innocent lives. Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 01:55:37 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 01:55:37 -0000 Subject: Acromantulas (Was: Arianna / Thestral/Selkies/Lavender) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184293 Carol earlier: > I had the idea, perhaps mistaken, that their lair had been destroyed, and I doubt that any parents would want their children to attend Hogwarts until the entire colony had been wiped out. > > > Carol, sincerely hoping that every trace of the murderous, > > cannibalistic brutes was wiped out > > Pippin responded: > Wiping them out would be tossing the baby with the bath water, since their venom is highly valuable. I don't recall if canon mentions what it's used for, but it must be important, or wizards wouldn't pay premium prices to get it. > > Why would the parents object to acromantulas if they don't object to werewolves and centaurs, also highly dangerous if precautions are not taken? The acromantulas like the dark and quiet; normally they stay far away from the bustling, brightly lit castle and don't attack unless they're disturbed in their lair. The ones who invaded the school must have been under the Imperius Curse, otherwise they'd have been just as dangerous to the Death Eaters. Carol responds: I hadn't thought about the venom being valuable, but I still think that Hogwarts parents would object much more to Acromantulas than to Centaurs or (rumored) werewolves. There's no evidence that the Acromantulas were under the Imperius Curse--the whole lot of them?--or even that arachnids are susceptible to that curse. I think it's just as likely, if not more likely, that Voldemort dealt with them as he did with the Werewolves and the Giants, sending ambassadors and bribing them with a chance to have as many victims as they like as long as they fought on his side. Or maybe Hagrid was their reward since they specifically went for him. After all, Acromantulas aren't just big, hairy monsters. They have near-human intelligence (greater, apparently, than Giants since they can learn human speech). They're just not trainable (with the exception of Aragog, and even he had no objection to his family killing and eating friends of Hagrid). But if you can bribe a Giant (as Hagrid did the Gurg and Macnair apparently did his successor) or a Werewolf as savage as Fenrir Greyback (as LV definitely did), I suspect that you can also bribe a colony of Acromantulas (who seem capable of following the dictates of their leader--not eating Hagrid because Aragog forbade it, for example). At any rate, if I were a WW parent newly aware of the existence of a colony of Acromantulas capable of getting into Hogwarts (darkness or no darkness), I would refuse to send my child there until the beasts were exterminated. Meantime, Slughorn could get an infinite supply of Acromantula venom from the newly slaughtered beasts and make his fortune. Too bad he doesn't have any descendants to inherit it. YMMV, of course. Carol, who expects JKR to reveal the fate of the colony in her encyclopedia (which she now has no excuse not to write) Carol, From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 02:08:32 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 02:08:32 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184294 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tommy_m_riddle" wrote: > I mean that with only HBP to work with, it really > seemed to me that Snape only found out about the plan from Narcissa > the moment he (I figured at the time) used Legilimency on her. And > that up until that second, he really was bluffing about knowing what > the plan was at all. My support for this was that Snape acts > completely hesitant to make any promises, right up until the line > about him staring in her eyes. The very next sentence, he agrees > straight away, in no uncertain terms, to take the Vow. zanooda: Even though Snape knew about the plan, he still would want to use Legilimency on Narcissa, to find out more about her motives. What if it was LV who sent her to ask for help in order to put his loyalty to the test? Or what if Bellatrix was just pretending she disapproved of Narcissa's behavior, and she was actually behind it, hoping to discredit Snape in LV's eyes? It was better to Legilimence her just in case :-). Once Snape looked into Narcissa's eyes, he realized she came of her own accord, and he decided it was safe to take the vow, because LV knew nothing about it, and Bella wouldn't want to incriminate her own sister (and herself) by telling him. From scarah at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 02:16:27 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 02:16:27 -0000 Subject: Acromantulas (Was: Arianna / Thestral/Selkies/Lavender) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184295 > Carol responds: > There's no evidence that [..] arachnids are susceptible to [the Imperius] curse. Sarah: I beg to differ, and refer to Defence Against the Dark Arts lessons in Goblet of Fire. :) As for whether the acromantulas actually were under the Imperius Curse during the battle, Harry doesn't explicitly state that he assumes this, but he does think the acromantulas attacking the castle are a sign that the Death Eaters have infiltrated the Forest. And like Pippin, I don't know why upon encountering Death Eaters, the acromantulas wouldn't just eat them first instead of listening to their proposal. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 02:56:52 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 02:56:52 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184296 Sarah wrote: > > I agree with Pippin that Dumbledore had already shown up with the crispy hand and Snape had put his temporary patch on the ring curse. And since DH, I now also agree that Snape did know of the plan, since he and Dumbledore discussed it in the same sitting as the ring curse patch was applied. Carol responds: I agree with you and zanooda and Pippin on this point. Also, zanooda mentioned the first four chapters all happening on the same night. I agree with that, too. We can definitely establish that the first two occur one right after the other based on the fog reference early in "Spinner's End," and, of course, the two Harry chapters follow one right after the other since he goes directly from Little Whinging to Budleigh Babberton. (I would love to know what was in JKR's mind when she invented that name!) Sarah: > Pre-DH, I would not have agreed with that second part. Snape is kind of waffling around about "trying" to help Draco with his task, until this line: "His black eyes were fixed upon Narcissa's tear-filled blue ones as she continued to clutch his hand." In the next sentence after that, Snape heartily agrees to make the Vow. It all seemed to fit that he was bluffing up until that moment. Carol responds: I had my doubts, too, pre-DH, about whether he knew about Draco's mission or was bluffing. I knew, of course, that he didn't know about Draco's Vanishing Cabinet Plan, but it became clear that he knew that Draco was trying to kill someone (and whom he was trying to kill) when Snape confronted him during Slughorn's party. Sarah: > It's reasonable to assume that he knows Narcissa to be no Occlumens, since his guess is that it was Bellatrix who taught Draco. Carol: I think you mean "no Legilimens." I agree that she isn't a legilimens (neither, at a guess, is Bellatrix). Even if they were, Snape's Occlumency can fool Voldemort, so it would certainly fool them. (BTW, it surprises me that Bellatrix, who either can't or won't conceal her emotions or her opinions on any occasion that I can recall, would bother to learn Occlumency. She doesn't have anything to hide from her dear Dark Lord, and she proudly proclaims her guilt at her sentencing. I suppose it was only a plot device to enable Draco to learn the rudimentary Occlumency that Snape detects so readily (but, for whatever reason, doesn't attempt to break through as Voldemort would have done). Sarah: > He changes his tune immediately after a cheesy line about him staring into Narcissa's eyes, so I figured that's what that was about. Carol: I'm not sure about "cheesy." I think that Snape is using Legilimency on Narcissa when he looks into those tear-filled blue eyes, and that what he sees is Draco being murdered. It may be that vision that causes him to agree to take the Unbreakable Vow. And I wouldn't use "heartily" to describe his agreement. I think "calmly" describes it better. He's acting deliberately, in the sense of "with deliberation," very much in control of the situation. He knows that both LV and DD expect and want him to kill DD in the end. He has a duty to Draco. He seems honestly to care about Narcissa. And he's keeping his cover as a loyal DE for Bellatrix's benefit. He has no choice, really, but to take the Unbreakable Vow, especially when Narcissa first presents it at swearing to protect and watch over Draco (as he fully intends to do in any case). Only when she presents her last provision, that he "do the deed" if it seems that Draco will fail, does his hand twitch and give away, at least to the post-DH reader, that he really doesn't want to kill DD. And even then, he masters himself and remains outwardly calm. Notice, though, that when Narcissa first presents her request, his face is "bland" and "ureadable" (a sign that he's concealing all traces of emotion, perhaps through Occlumency). Then he looks into Narcissa's tear-filled blue eyes and agrees "quietly" to take the vow. He even manages to speak both coldly and authoritatively to Bellatrix, instructing her to act as Bonder. Sarah: > But DH showed he did know the plan. Carol: As I said, I think it's pretty clear from the moment he talks to Draco after the party that he knows what Draco is trying to do. He just doesn't know how. And he takes the opportunity to discourage any more foolish measures like the opal necklace (it's too late to stop the poisoned mead, which he doesn't know about, perhaps because he's thwarted by Draco's clumsy and easily detectable attempt at Occlumency. Sarah: > Absent obvious evidence, I'm usually prone to give the benefit of the doubt to the author not making a mistake. But in this case, I wonder if maybe it is one, though it's a very minor matter. Carol: I'm sure that Pippin will be surprised to read this, but I don't see a mistake here. Snape knew that Voldemort had assigned Draco to kill DD, knew that LV expected Draco to fail, and knew that both LV and DD expected him, Snape, to kill DD when Draco failed. We also have the conversation later in HBP between Snape and DD, partially and somewhat inaccurately reported by Hagrid, in which Snape says that maybe he doesn't want to do it any more. That's our first real clue that DD wants Snape to kill him, which is the primary reason that Snape agreed to take the Unbreakable Vow (the others may have contributed to his decision, but I don't think that, even taken together, they would have been sufficient if he hadn't already made that promise to Dumbledore. Otherwise, he would probably have done as Bellatrix predicted and "slithered out of action" yet again. Sarah: > As for the original question from Alla, yes, I think Snape agreed to the Vow mainly because he could without sacrificing anything additional that he hadn't promised to do already anyway, and to help reinforce the support of the Malfoys and get Bellatrix off his back a little. Carol: Exactly. Carol, noting that both the first two and the second two chapters appear to occur on a Friday night/Saturday morning around midnight in mid-July and are therefore probably all on the same night From kaamita at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 03:00:16 2008 From: kaamita at yahoo.com (Heather Hadden) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 20:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Acromantulas (Was: Arianna / Thestral/Selkies/Lavender) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <633408.17996.qm@web56502.mail.re3.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184297 ? Carol says: There's no evidence that the Acromantulas were under the Imperius Curse--the whole lot of them?--or even that arachnids are susceptible to that curse. ? What about when the fake Mad Eye used it in class on the spider? Didn't he mention he could make it drown itself? That would imply that arachnids at least are susceptible to the Imperius Curse. ? Heaher [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 03:16:03 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 03:16:03 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184298 lizzyben wrote: > > I kind of think that that was the moment where Snape actually became genuinely moved by Narcissa's predicament. In DH, we see that Snape did feel bad for the Malfoys, who had to endure the "slow torture" of watching Draco fail at his task. Plus, there's also the fact that he was unable to protect another mother (Lily). Snape was bluffing up till then, but when Narcissa tearfully asked for the vow, Snape had a real emotional reaction. And he genuinely felt compelled to take the vow to reassure her & protect Draco. It's almost gallant, like a knight pledging allegiance to his Lady; which is pretty much what he did with Lily as well. It's that Snape/"Prince" duality. Actually, looking back now, he's quite kind to Narcissa throughout that chapter. Pre-DH, we might think that was sarcasm or bluffing, but now I think it was basically genuine. Carol: The only point on which I ever thought he was bluffing was knowing about Draco's mission (which I've already discussed in a previous post). and, of course, he was telling half-truths about his loyalty to Voldemort (also rhetorical questions and perhaps a few flat-out lies) to persuade Bellatrix that he was loyal to Voldemort. But he treats both Bellatrix and Wormtail with cool sarcasm, whereas he's a complete gentleman to Narcissa throughout. I think, though, that his demeanor changes from a calm but courteous refusal to help her to a thoughtful appraisal of the stiuation as he turns away and stares at the curtain. His words at that point, "I think he means me to do it in the end" (quoting from memory) suggest that he's thinking not only about Voldemort but about Dumbledore. And when he sees Narcissa's real distress, her dependence on him to save Draco, I agree with you that he's genuinely moved by her plight. Terrible as the Unbreakable Vow is in its consequences for both Dumbledore and Snape, binding him to a promise that he's already made against his will, it's still an act of chivalry for a "damsel" in distress, swearing literally to do what she wants or die (but, of course, it's also what DD wants). We're seeing Snape at his best here, his bravest and most gallant. "Perhaps we sort too soon," Dumbledore says. Snape would have made quite a Gryffindor had fate and his own inclinations allowed it. Carol, who now wonders what sort of "Prince" Severus imagined himself as being when he took that nickname From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 03:32:28 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 03:32:28 -0000 Subject: Acromantulas (Was: Arianna / Thestral/Selkies/Lavender) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184299 Carol responds: > > There's no evidence that [..] arachnids are susceptible to [the Imperius] curse. > > Sarah: > I beg to differ, and refer to Defence Against the Dark Arts lessons in Goblet of Fire. :) Carol: Oops! I wonder whether that's why JKR had Fake!Moody demonstrate the Imperius Curse on spiders in GoF, as foreshadowing of DH? But, still, that's not proof that the whole troop of them were under the Imperius Curse. The rest of my argument still stands. (It would have taken a lot of risk and a group of highly talented DEs ti curse so many Acromantulas without being stung or eaten, and neither courage nor talent seems to be widespread among the DEs.) Carol, blushing at her forgetfulness From scarah at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 03:40:55 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 03:40:55 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184300 > Carol responds: > I had my doubts, too, pre-DH, about whether he knew about Draco's > mission or was bluffing. I knew, of course, that he didn't know about > Draco's Vanishing Cabinet Plan, but it became clear that he knew that > Draco was trying to kill someone (and whom he was trying to kill) when > Snape confronted him during Slughorn's party. Sarah: Oh yes, it was clear that he knew it later. He was acting like he didn't know it up until the moment when (pre-DH I thought that) he performed Legilimency upon Narcissa and found it out. After that, he clearly knew it, but I thought (pre-DH) he knew it because he found it out from Narcissa at Spinner's End in that one moment where it was clear to me (at the time) that he had read it from Narcissa's mind. > Sarah: > > It's reasonable to assume that he knows Narcissa to be no > Occlumens, since his guess is that it was Bellatrix who taught Draco. > Carol: > I think you mean "no Legilimens." Sarah: No, I meant "no Occlumens." I thought that Snape was reading Narcissa's mind at Spinner's End. And Bellatrix was the one who presumably taught Draco Occlumency, not Legilimency, which it's not clear that Draco knows, and I doubt he does. I wasn't referring to any paranoia that Snape might have about Narcissa turning the tables, and reading Snape's mind instead of Snape reading hers, but there's evidence that he knows that she doesn't know the defense version so he probably safely assumes she wouldn't know the offense either. Snipped stuff about why would Bellatrix learn Occlumency, because I didn't have a very big reply to it, but that's a good point. She doesn't seem to need it. As for why Snape wouldn't try to break through Draco's Occlumency, I can think of two reasons: 1. He kind of is supposed to be getting Draco to be his buddy at this point, and tell him what he's up to. Brute forcing his way into his mind is another option, but this might have an adverse affect on some relationships. 2. Snape is a superb Occlumens, but I don't know if he's that great of a Legilimens on anyone who has clue #1 what they are doing with Occlumency. Harry Potter doesn't, so Snape can use Legilimency on him. Narcissa doesn't, so he can use it on her. > Carol: > And I wouldn't use > "heartily" to describe his agreement. Sarah: That may have been poor phrasing on my part. What I meant was that he utterly and completely changed his attitude right in that second. He went from "I can try." to "I shall make the Unbreakable Vow." From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 06:12:13 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 06:12:13 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184302 > Alla: > So I suppose I am not hundred percent sure if this conversation took > place when UV already happened or not, accordingly my question is did > he take the vow when he already knew that Dumbledore wants him to do > him in and accordingly he took the vow solely to protect Malfoy or > did he take the vow to find out the plan without being quite sure > what's going to happen next? > > Um, thanks guys, sorry for being slow today and missing something > very obvious. Montavilla47: In "Spinner's End," Snape refers to Dumbledore's injury, which means that this chapter takes place after Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him--and after Snape told Dumbledore about Voldemort's plan to have Draco kill him. I think that he took the Vow for two reasons. One was to try and be in the loop of Draco's plans (in order to prevent bad stuff like Katie Bell getting cursed). The second reason, I think, was in order to protect Draco from Voldemort. Because Snape vowed to "protect Draco," he would be magically obliged to intervene if Voldemort made any unilateral decision that Draco had failed (say, if at Christmas vacation, Voldemort decided to declare that time was up in Draco's mission.) The Vow gave Snape for intervening, and any action Voldemort took against Draco would have to be balanced against the harm it would do to V's "valuable spy." And Snape could always the Vow itself on Bella's goading. It was a risk, but a calculated risk. I could see Snape doing it IF he really cared about Draco (because it was going outside Dumbledore's instructions). It's a bit hard to square that, however, with Snape in DH, since he seems to care not a bit about the Malfoys in that book. Maybe he's so deep in his role that he's sacrificed the Malfoys at that point. Or maybe we're just on seeing the caring parts because we're stuck in Harry's POV for most of the book. But it's kind of weird. Montavilla47 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 15:35:33 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:35:33 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 3 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184303 Ok, now that is a shock for me. As some of you know I am not a reader who was, is or ever will be to spare a drop of sympathy for Dursleys. Not ever. Ok, must stop, because rant about Dursleys is really not what I want to write about here. Must stop. So, maybe some of you remembered, maybe not, but when we did not have DH yet, I highly highly enjoyed Will and Won't. This chapter to me delivered a necessary punch of very satisfactory humiliation of Dursleys that I was waiting for five books. I wanted a payback for their treatment of Harry and I got it. Oh boy, I am rereading this chapter now and nothing feels that way anymore. I think it is because after DH everything that Dumbledore did to Harry feels so much worse to me than what Dursleys ever did. Again, this is not to excuse Dursleys, please see above, I am not that reader. But Dumbledore talking about rudeness? Dumbledore talking about Dursleys not treating him as a son, when he was treating him as a weapon to be killed? Oy, Dumbledore you are hypocrite, me thinks. So anyways, I am just wondering now what was the purpose of this chapter again? I mean, I get that we needed to see Dumbledore's injury, but what was the purpose of scene with Dursleys theme wise, because I really am not sure anymore. I mean, yes there is that matter of Kreacher's ownership, but was there something else about Dursleys we needed to hear? Because really carmic justice as delivered by Dumbledore of all people really paled to me after book 7. JMO, Alla From philipwhiuk at hotmail.com Fri Sep 12 08:02:14 2008 From: philipwhiuk at hotmail.com (Philip) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 09:02:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184304 Carol responds: I agree with you and zanooda and Pippin on this point. Also, zanooda mentioned the first four chapters all happening on the same night. I agree with that, too. We can definitely establish that the first two occur one right after the other based on the fog reference early in "Spinner's End," and, of course, the two Harry chapters follow one right after the other since he goes directly from Little Whinging to Budleigh Babberton. (I would love to know what was in JKR's mind when she invented that name!) Philip replies: >From a little research: Budleigh Babberton is comprised of two names each which can be traced back to places and other ideas: Budleigh: East Budleigh and Budleigh Salterton are both villages in Devon located just off the south coast. Budleigh Salterton is the closest match to that of BB, being almost entirely residential and 'famed for it's elderly population'. Somewhat notably it came last in a 2003 survey of towns that give value for money for homebuyers. This was printed in the Observer - I think it's probable that JKR read the Observer that day and stored the village name for later. Babberton: Firstly it's a slight alteration on the existing theme. Secondly the clue comes from 'Whinging'. A whinge is an English word meaning to a cry; a complaint; to complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner. This is remarkably similar to the tactics used by Dudley in the early chapters of PS. Now in HBP, Slughorn is seen to be a gossiper - another word for gossip is 'blab'. I don't see it as a massive leap from Blab & Salterton to Babberton. Hoping this analysis was interesting. Philip. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.20/1666 - Release Date: 11/09/2008 07:03 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Sep 12 17:09:17 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 17:09:17 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > But Dumbledore talking about rudeness? Dumbledore talking about > Dursleys not treating him as a son, when he was treating him as a > weapon to be killed? > > Oy, Dumbledore you are hypocrite, me thinks. > > So anyways, I am just wondering now what was the purpose of this > chapter again? > Because really carmic justice as delivered by Dumbledore of all people really paled to me after book 7. Pippin: That *is* the point. The Gryffindors do have one glaring fault and that is their nasty habit of trying to put their supposed inferiors in their place. Of course Dumbledore doesn't believe in racial or magical inferiority any more, at least he doesn't think he does...but moral inferiority is another story. But much as we like to see the bad guys get what they deserve, it really doesn't do, in canon, to bully your inferiors...even moral inferiors. You're probably not that much better than they are -- and even if you were, the problem is, it's a lot easier to put people in their place than to keep them there. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 17:48:02 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 17:48:02 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184306 > Pippin: > That *is* the point. The Gryffindors do have one glaring fault and > that is their nasty habit of trying to put their supposed inferiors > in their place. Of course Dumbledore doesn't believe in racial or > magical inferiority any more, at least he doesn't think he does...but > moral inferiority is another story. > > > But much as we like to see the bad guys get what they deserve, it > really doesn't do, in canon, to bully your inferiors...even moral > inferiors. You're probably not that much better than they are -- and > even if you were, the problem is, it's a lot easier to put people in > their place than to keep them there. Alla: So you think the point is to show that nobody should be bullied, no matter what we think of those people? That's it? I mean, I would agree with you that it could be about showing how wrong Dumbledore's belief in moral superiority is, I really would... Except I mean, it is not like I am reacting differently because I started to respect Dursleys more after book 7. I am reacting differently because I felt significantly less respect for Dumbledore. On the scale of 1 to 10 Dursley's actions towards Harry stayed the same for me, same low 1 or something like that, it is Dumbledore's action to me went further down to minus 10. I mean, James and Sirius bullying Snape because they hate Dark Arts and we have Snape spending his life fighting against Dark Arts. That point works for me all right. With Dursleys? It is not like I discovered that in reality they treated Harry well. I am not even saying that I am unhappy with what they got. It is the person who delivers it, that's what makes me not as satisfied, you know? Had it been Arthur Weasley for example, I would cheer just as much as I was before I read DH. JMO, Alla From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Sep 12 18:28:42 2008 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 18:28:42 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: <821AB12C8A3E4951817D3B7FC4838C45@PhilipPC> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184307 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: Philip: > From a little research: Budleigh Babberton is comprised of two names each > which can be traced back to places and other ideas: > Budleigh: East Budleigh and Budleigh Salterton are both villages in Devon > located just off the south coast. Budleigh Salterton is the closest match to > that of BB, being almost entirely residential and 'famed for it's elderly > population'. Somewhat notably it came last in a 2003 survey of towns that > give value for money for homebuyers. This was printed in the Observer - I > think it's probable that JKR read the Observer that day and stored the > village name for later. > Babberton: Firstly it's a slight alteration on the existing theme. Secondly > the clue comes from 'Whinging'. A whinge is an English word meaning to a > cry; a complaint; to complain or protest, especially in an annoying or > persistent manner. This is remarkably similar to the tactics used by Dudley > in the early chapters of PS. Now in HBP, Slughorn is seen to be a gossiper - > another word for gossip is 'blab'. I don't see it as a massive leap from > Blab & Salterton to Babberton. Geoff: I must say that I don't buy into your thoughts on the etymology of Babberton. However, I admit that I have previously paid little attention to the name of the village, but there is something interesting which emerges from this and followson some discussion back in December 2005 about Ottery St.Catchpole - the home of the Burrow. As you say, Budleigh Salterton is on the South Devon coast about 9-10 miles South-east of Exeter - the main regional centre. But the interesting fact that caught my eye looking at the map is that the village is at the mouth of the River Otter and about 8 miles upstream from the coast is Ottery St. Mary which had come into the thread - the though being that JKR had placed Ottery St.Catchpole in this area in her WW view. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 19:13:26 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:13:26 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184308 > > Sarah: > > > It's reasonable to assume that he knows Narcissa to be no Occlumens, since his guess is that it was Bellatrix who taught Draco. > > > Carol: > > I think you mean "no Legilimens." > > Sarah: > No, I meant "no Occlumens." I thought that Snape was reading Narcissa's mind at Spinner's End. Carol: Oh, I get it. You mean she can't block *his* Legilimency. I thought you were confusing the two terms. I deleted my response to that effect when I figured out what you meant. (Apologies to anyone who reads this list by e-mail; I can't delete those posts.) BTW, I agree that he was using Legilimency that she couldn't block, but I don't think that he saw Draco's mission in her eyes. Based on the scene in "Sectumsempra" where Snape the thought that's uppermost in Harry's mind, "his" (really Snape's) Potions book, I think that Snape saw the thought that Narcissa was obsessing over, her worst fear, Draco being murdered. I'm sure that Snape was telling the truth when he said that he knew about Draco's mission (but not the Vanishing Cabinet plan, obviously, only the "job" of killing DD). But that knowledge wasn't sufficient to prompt him to offer help. (Of course, he intended to watch and protect Draco, anyway, but he was being very cautious about what he agreed to do. His expression is blank and unreadable when she first suggests the Unbreakable Vow, but then he looks into her eyes. IMO, it was her fear, and his compassion or pity or empathy, that moved him to offer to help her, even to take such a desperate measure as the Unbreakable Vow. As Pippin said, he knew exactly how she felt. He had been in her position, begging Dumbledore to save Lily's life. How could he refuse to help Narcissa, even if it meant sacrificing his own life, under those terms? But, still, if he hadn't already promised DD that he would kill him, I don't think he would have taken such a dangerous step, placing his life on the line and possibly pledging himself to do the unthinkable. I think he would have found some other way to help Narcissa and Draco. But between his promise to DD to kill him rather than have Draco do it and his compassion and empathy for Narcissa, whose terror for her son I'm certain he could read in her eyes, he felt that taking the UV was the right choice. It also served other purposes as well, maintaining his facade of loyalty and keeping Narcissa from taking desperate measures of her own. (It didn't prevent Bellatrix from trying to thwart him by teaching Draco rudimentary Occlumency, but apparently she now thought that Snape was out to steal Draco's "glory" and indoctrinated Draco with the same fear.) Carol, posting this late because my deleted message from yesterday was my fifth From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 19:47:54 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:47:54 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184309 Pippin wrote: > > That *is* the point. The Gryffindors do have one glaring fault and that is their nasty habit of trying to put their supposed inferiors in their place. Of course Dumbledore doesn't believe in racial or magical inferiority any more, at least he doesn't think he does...but moral inferiority is another story. > > > > But much as we like to see the bad guys get what they deserve, it really doesn't do, in canon, to bully your inferiors...even moral inferiors. You're probably not that much better than they are -- and even if you were, the problem is, it's a lot easier to put people in their place than to keep them there. Carol responds: I agree with you about Gryffindors bullying or psychologically abusing their supposed inferiors--MWPP bullying Severus, the Twins and Hagrid bullying Dudley, Sirius Black treating Kreacher like scum, James and Ginny hexing people who annoy them, etc. Even Harry in HBP starts hexing people for the fun of it, trying out the toenail hex on Crabbe and Langlock on Filch, who can't even fight back. (Of course, they're not the only ones who behave this way, as Morfin and the DEs at the QWT demonstrate in more extreme form.) So, in this chapter, we get DD, the supposed champion of Muggles and the oppressed and the advocate of good manners even to the DEs on the Astronomy Tower, giving the Dursleys a lecture on their treatment of Harry and (very mild) magical lessons in what he calls good manners (though Vernon certainly has a point about midnight intrusions on his family and can be forgiven for not offering Dumbledore drinks, just as all of them are understandably afraid to drink the mead that's knocking them on the head, though it would have been good sense to at least take the glasses and put them on the table.) I don't really trust our ability to detect authorial intention, but given JKR's remarks in interviews, I suspect that she enjoyed this scene and expected readers to enjoy it, too. I know that many readers thought at the time that the Dursleys had it coming. However, that may not be the primary purpose of the chapter, which does prepare the way for certain future events. It establishes that Kreacher belongs to Harry and that it's safe to reenter 12 GP, it informs the Dursleys that Harry will come of age at seventeen but will need to call 4 Privet Drive "home" for one more year (Petunia understands even though Vernon doesn't), and it sets up Dudley's turnaround in DH, giving him a whole year to think about his own and his family's treatment of Harry. Carol, who found Dumbledore's (unwitting?) hypocrisy in this chapter less disturbing than other instances of Gryffindor bullying, not to mention the Dumbledore of "The Prince's Tale," the Dumbledore that Snape knew and chose to trust From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 20:21:58 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 20:21:58 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184310 Alla: > But Dumbledore talking about rudeness? Dumbledore talking about > Dursleys not treating him as a son, when he was treating him as a > weapon to be killed? > > Oy, Dumbledore you are hypocrite, me thinks. > > So anyways, I am just wondering now what was the purpose of this > chapter again? > > I mean, I get that we needed to see Dumbledore's injury, but what was > the purpose of scene with Dursleys theme wise, because I really am not > sure anymore. I mean, yes there is that matter of Kreacher's ownership, > but was there something else about Dursleys we needed to hear? > > Because really carmic justice as delivered by Dumbledore of all people > really paled to me after book 7. Montavilla47: Welcome to the Dark Side, Alla! I think that the purpose of this chapter was to deliver that Karmic justice you were looking for. And I can understand, in an abstract way, why it would be satisfying for most of the people reading the books. It wasn't for me, because I found Dumbledore hypocritical the first time I read it. The glasses knocking against the heads of the Dursleys struck me as particularly obnoxious, perhaps because I don't enjoy drinking alcohol and people are always pouring me larger glasses of wine than I want--and then demanding that I enjoy them. And, there was the hypocrasy of Dumbledore lecturing them on their neglect of Harry, when he was the one who left a baby on their doorstep in the first place. Without even ringing the doorbell. For all he knew, Harry could have been eaten by the neighborhood schnauser before Petunia even opened the door. Also, he could have looked in once in a while to make sure they were treating the kid okay. But the main thing was for me that I didn't think the Dursley's really needed any big Karmic humiliation. I felt like they pretty much got their comeuppances along the way. In PS/SS, Dudley was cursed with a pig's tail and had to undergo a surgical procedure to get it removed. And, at the end of the book, Harry is told by Hagrid to pretend he can curse the Dudleys, giving him the upper hand. Until Dobby comes along to make Harry's life miserable again (which isn't the Dursleys' fault). They gain the upper hand once they realize that Harry isn't allowed to do magic, but things keep backfiring on them. They lose that important client in CoS. Aunt Marge is blown up in PoA. And then Harry gets the upperhand again at the end of PoA when he can use the threat of his "murderous" Godfather to threaten Vernon. >From that point on, the Dursleys have no power over Harry at all--the worst they can do to him is make him join Dudley's diet. Even when Sirius dies, the threat of one murderous wizard is simply replaced with the threat of four or five wizards. In PS/SS, a single owl-delivered letter gets the Dursleys to move Harry out of the cupboard and into Dudley's spare room. At the end of OotP, a gang of wizards openly threatens Vernon. So, by HBP, the Dursleys (in terms of danger or harm to Harry) have shrunk to ant size. Dumbledore's just the boot that finally squashes them flat. Montavilla47 From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 20:41:37 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 20:41:37 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184311 > Montavilla47: > > Welcome to the Dark Side, Alla! > > I think that the purpose of this chapter was to deliver that Karmic justice > you were looking for. Alla: If it was, I just wish it would have been delivered by somebody other than Dumbledore. Montavilla47: >And I can understand, in an abstract way, why > it would be satisfying for most of the people reading the books. Alla: LOL. As a veteran of these discussions, I remember quite a few people defending the Dursleys over the years, so no, it is not satisfying for most people, it is satisfying for me and I am guessing for some other readers. You are very far from being alone on that one as far as I remember. But yes, that defense I can understand only in the most abstract ways. Montavilla47: > It wasn't for me, because I found Dumbledore hypocritical the first time I > read it. Alla: Right I understand and agree with the reasons why I would consider Dumbledore hypocritical, it is just before book 7 to me despite all that he had done, he was not being as nearly horrible to Harry as Dursleys were. Montavilla47: > But the main thing was for me that I didn't think the Dursley's really needed > any big Karmic humiliation. I felt like they pretty much got their > comeuppances along the way. They gain the upper hand once they realize that Harry isn't allowed to do > magic, but things keep backfiring on them. They lose that important client > in CoS. Aunt Marge is blown up in PoA. And then Harry gets the upperhand > again at the end of PoA when he can use the threat of his "murderous" > Godfather to threaten Vernon. Alla: Yeah, see to me no matter what backfired on them, it did not backfire nearly enough like ever to match what hungry and upset twelve year old was going through when they locked him up, no matter what backfired on them, it did not match eleven years in the cupboard. I wanted them in pain, I wanted them to be just as helpless as Harry was for once. I felt like I got it in HBP. The scene did not lose emotional impact for me because I feel bad for Dursleys, it lost impact because of who was delivering it. Ugh, I went into Dursleys' rant again, sorry. Montavilla47: > In PS/SS, a single owl-delivered letter gets the Dursleys to move Harry out > of the cupboard and into Dudley's spare room. Alla: I guess to me it just did not cross out previous eleven years. Montavilla47: >At the end of OotP, a gang > of wizards openly threatens Vernon. So, by HBP, the Dursleys (in terms of > danger or harm to Harry) have shrunk to ant size. Dumbledore's just the > boot that finally squashes them flat. Alla: Sure, just to me no danger, did not mean that I did not want payback. Carol, who found Dumbledore's (unwitting?) hypocrisy in this chapter less disturbing than other instances of Gryffindor bullying, not to mention the Dumbledore of "The Prince's Tale," the Dumbledore that Snape knew and chose to trust Alla: Very good example actually of what I would have still enjoyed with Dursleys. I of course have zero problems with how Dumbledore behaves towards Snape in Prince tale, to me he had it coming big time and I loved that. But obviously the fact that I enjoyed it, does not mean that I am going to delude myself and say that I think that Dumbledore behaved as a good person here. It is just when I look at Dumbledore and Snape, I find Snape to be much worse in terms of what he did to Harry and I do not mind Dumbledore delivering that medicine to Severus dear. JMO, Alla From philipwhiuk at hotmail.com Fri Sep 12 18:58:54 2008 From: philipwhiuk at hotmail.com (Philip) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:58:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP post DH look chapter 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184312 Alla says: So anyways, I am just wondering now what was the purpose of this chapter again? Philip says: I think it is mostly for our and Harry's benefit to show Dumbledore manipulating a situation to try to increase the connection and loyalty of Harry at a time when it was ebbing away. At this point Harry has been angry at Dumbledore for the previous year. In addition, on a literary side, it provides a sense of comedy which the rest of the book would otherwise miss. If anything meeting Slughorn and the Dursley's are one of the most direct bits of manipulation (which Dumbledore is famed for) that we get to see. I suspect also that Rowling enjoyed writing some retaliation upon the Dursley's. - Philip [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 21:37:28 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 21:37:28 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184313 Carol earlier: > Carol, who found Dumbledore's (unwitting?) hypocrisy in this chapter less disturbing than other instances of Gryffindor bullying, not to mention the Dumbledore of "The Prince's Tale," the Dumbledore that Snape knew and chose to trust > > > Alla: > > Very good example actually of what I would have still enjoyed with Dursleys. I of course have zero problems with how Dumbledore behaves towards Snape in Prince tale, to me he had it coming big time and I loved that. > > But obviously the fact that I enjoyed it, does not mean that I am going to delude myself and say that I think that Dumbledore behaved as a good person here. It is just when I look at Dumbledore and Snape, I find Snape to be much worse in terms of what he did to Harry and I do not mind Dumbledore delivering that medicine to Severus dear. Carol again: Just to clarify, I'm not reacting only to DD's treatment of Snape when Snape begs him for help (though I much prefer Snape's treatment of Narcissa in "Spinner's End" in similar circumstances). "The Prince's Tale" shows a side of Dumbledore that Snape has seen but Harry hasn't, not only his expectation that Snape risk his life without receiving full information in return for that risk (a situation that exactly parallels Harry's), but Dumbledore expects *Harry* to sacrifice himself to destroy the soul bit in his scar, an expectation that Snape violently rejects, calling it "a pig to the slaughter." IOW, we first truly see the manipulative, and to some degree ruthless, side of DD (though it's not quite as bad as it appears in that chapter; he knows but can't or won't tell Snape that Harry has a chance for survival). Harry himself, after viewing the Pensieve memories, views it as DD's "betrayal." So what I meant in my sign-off was that DD's somewhat hypocritical but mildly humorous (and perhaps deserved) treatment of the Dursleys in HBP chapter 3 didn't bother me nearly as much as the view of him we see in Snape's memories in "the Prince's Tale." It says a great deal about Snape that he can still be loyal to Dumbledore (setting aside his own reasons for protecting Harry and opposing LV) even knowing, much more than Harry does, just how much of a puppetmaster Dumbledore is and how much he's willing to risk not only his own life but the lives of others for "the greater good." In short, it's the whole picture of DD that we see depicted in "The Prince's Tale" that I found disturbing, not just his (hypocritical) lack of sympathy for Snape, who was worried about Lily but not about James or their son. Considering that DD at only a few years younger was ready to join forces with Grindelwald to run the world his way and, later, indifferent to the suffering and deaths of unknown people if he could only keep Harry safe, I did find his behavior on that occasion annoying. However, it's the using and manipulating people who, in Snape's case, lie and spy and risk their lives for him, or in Harry's case, fight monsters and take on burdens that adult wizards fear to face only to have the whole truth concealed from them, that I find disturbing. I knew that DD was too confident in his own intelligence and too unwilling to give credit to others (if only Harry had known Snape's role in keeping DD alive after he stupidly put on the ring, for example), but I was still unwilling, pre-DH and specifically pre-"Prince's Tale" to acknowledge the extent of that manipulation of others. And I wasn't aware of his secrecy, either, or at least not the extent of it, though Aberforth paves the way for that revelation. Carol, who desperately needed the return to the familiar Dumbledore of "King's Cross," dead or not, to understand and partially forgive him From scarah at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 02:18:43 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 02:18:43 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184314 > Carol: > As Pippin said, he knew > exactly how she felt. He had been in her position, begging Dumbledore > to save Lily's life. How could he refuse to help Narcissa, even if it > meant sacrificing his own life, under those terms? Sarah: I agree that he understood how she felt, but disagree with the second part, because of the reason he *can* understand how Narcissa feels. His real vow is to complete what he's set out to do on Lily's behalf, not help all the mothers of the world who may bear some universal similarity to Lily. No matter how he might empathize with Narcissa, *his* mission still is what it is. If he fails to help Harry Potter carry out what he's been set to do, he fails at life, basically. If he's dead, he probably can't finish his mission. (I know Dumbledore still did, kind of, but Snape would have died in much worse standing had he died of some Unbreakable Vow with the Malfoys, or been taken out as a consequence of killing Dumbledore.) If Snape thought for a second that he might actually die from any of this, he not only could refuse, he *must* refuse, to preserve his real interest. But that's not an issue for him. He reckons everyone involved expects Draco to fail, and Snape to be the one to kill Dumbledore, so the Vow won't kill Snape. And even if Draco actually does manage to pull it off, Snape hasn't broken the Vow, just his promise to Dumbledore. I think Snape is pretty confident that he won't get taken out by someone like Harry Potter as a side effect of killing Dumbledore, with good reason (see: their duel afterwards). He makes the Vow because it's promising the exact same thing to two different parties. There's no additional danger involved on his part by making it. It's a win-win situation. Unless he died, then everyone involved would have some pretty bad repercussions. But Snape is confident that won't happen, so no worries. Carol: > But, still, if he hadn't already promised DD that he would kill him, I > don't think he would have taken such a dangerous step, placing his > life on the line and possibly pledging himself to do the unthinkable. Sarah: Of course not. He wouldn't even have killed Dumbledore in the first place if Dumbledore wasn't dying already. But these plans were all made after Snape (and only Snape and Dumbledore) knew that Dumbledore had a year, tops, to live. If he'd been approached to kill Dumbledore when Dumbledore was healthy, he could have just said, "Please, he's so much more useful alive, where I can spy on him." From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 13 02:37:35 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 02:37:35 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184315 > Alla: > > Yeah, see to me no matter what backfired on them, it did not backfire > nearly enough like ever to match what hungry and upset twelve year > old was going through when they locked him up, no matter what > backfired on them, it did not match eleven years in the cupboard. > > I wanted them in pain, I wanted them to be just as helpless as Harry > was for once. I felt like I got it in HBP. The scene did not lose > emotional impact for me because I feel bad for Dursleys, it lost > impact because of who was delivering it. > > Ugh, I went into Dursleys' rant again, sorry. Montavilla47: No problem. I don't blame you for being upset. I guess I just don't have that big an emotional connection to it. That whole Dursley/Harry dynamic always struck me as a comic exaggeration of the fairy tale youngest child archetype. You know, Cinderella forced to wait on her sisters and all that. > Montavilla47: > > In PS/SS, a single owl-delivered letter gets the Dursleys to move > Harry out > > of the cupboard and into Dudley's spare room. > > Alla: > > I guess to me it just did not cross out previous eleven years. > > Montavilla47: > >At the end of OotP, a gang > > of wizards openly threatens Vernon. So, by HBP, the Dursleys (in > terms of > > danger or harm to Harry) have shrunk to ant size. Dumbledore's > just the > > boot that finally squashes them flat. > > Alla: > > Sure, just to me no danger, did not mean that I did not want payback. Montavilla47: Fair enough. It just seemd to me that the Dursleys were getting payback all through the series. The reason I mentioned the shifting balance of power was that it meant that the Dursleys had little ability to build up the reservoir of Karmic payback after PS/SS and especially after PoA. In CoS, Vernon can try to lock Harry in his room, but that doesn't last long. In GoF, he's powerless to keep Harry from going the QWC--or to prevent Arthur from invading his home. > Carol, who found Dumbledore's (unwitting?) hypocrisy in this chapter > less disturbing than other instances of Gryffindor bullying, not to > mention the Dumbledore of "The Prince's Tale," the Dumbledore that > Snape knew and chose to trust reply only to signature> > > > Alla: > > Very good example actually of what I would have still enjoyed with > Dursleys. I of course have zero problems with how Dumbledore behaves > towards Snape in Prince tale, to me he had it coming big time and I > loved that. > > But obviously the fact that I enjoyed it, does not mean that I am > going to delude myself and say that I think that Dumbledore behaved > as a good person here. It is just when I look at Dumbledore and > Snape, I find Snape to be much worse in terms of what he did to Harry > and I do not mind Dumbledore delivering that medicine to Severus dear. > Montavilla47: What's kind of odd to me about that, Alla, is that Dumbledore is delivering this payback pre-emptively. Pre-emptive payback is oxymoronic. Although Snape has unwittingly done Harry a bad turn by delivering the Prophecy to Voldemort at this point, he's also trying to undo that harm by warning Dumbledore. And, at this point in his life, he had yet to deduct a single point from Harry, give him a single dirty look or cutting remark, or do any of the things that make people truly dislike him. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 13 02:42:12 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 02:42:12 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 4 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184316 Last one ( as somebody kindly calculated for me fourth :)) post for today. Sitting home and rereading the enjoyable book definitely makes for more frequent posts, but I already know that even when I won't be able to post that often, this book I will reread so much faster than OOP, LOL. It is funny because I did this chapter discussion for HBP. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/143308? threaded=1&l=1 Nothing that I thought was of significance played out as significant, although when I reread it, couple questions still can be speculated, I think. But interestingly I still enjoy this chapter, probably more now than first three for some reason. I just like Horace despite all his faults, I can't help myself. And, hehe, one minor point where I saw symbolism of Dumbledore and Horace doing clean up together, well in a sense, Horace did fight in the final battle. "Professor what happened to your-?" "I have no time to explain now," said Dumbledore. "It is a thrilling tale, I wish to do it justice" - p.61, paperback Alla: Do you think "tale" indicates that the story will be finally told in "Prince's tale"? "Firstly, I wish you to keep your invisibility Cloak with you at all times from this moment onward. Even within Hogwarts itself. Just in case, you understand me?" - p.79, paperback ed. Alla: Amusing how I thought that Dumbledore was worried about Harry, and now I think that he was more worried about one of the Hallows. From scarah at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 02:56:15 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 02:56:15 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184317 > "Professor what happened to your-?" > "I have no time to explain now," said Dumbledore. "It is a thrilling > tale, I wish to do it justice" - p.61, paperback > > Alla: > > Do you think "tale" indicates that the story will be finally told > in "Prince's tale"? Sarah: I think that could be a bit of a stretch. It's really just stalling in my opinion. Dumbledore can't tell Harry the truth, which is: 1. There are these Deathly Hallow things, see 2. I screwed up really bad with one of them, and as a result... 3. I now have less than a year to live 4. At which time Snape will kill me Dumbledore's plan from here on out hinges on everyone believing that Snape is flat out evil. Alla: > "Firstly, I wish you to keep your invisibility Cloak with you at all > times from this moment onward. Even within Hogwarts itself. Just in > case, you understand me?" - p.79, paperback ed. > > Alla: > > Amusing how I thought that Dumbledore was worried about Harry, and > now I think that he was more worried about one of the Hallows. Sarah: He probably cares about Hallows falling into the wrong hands, but not too much, since as far as he's concerned the Elder Wand will have no owner, and be safe, and no one will ever unite the Hallows. I think he just wants Harry to be able to go invisible. Especially in the case that Harry might bear witness to Snape killing him. Dumbledore couldn't have thought that a certainty, but I'm sure he considered it as a possibility, and I think things worked out well for him there. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sat Sep 13 02:56:42 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 02:56:42 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184318 Zara: Alla, thanks for starting up this thread. I had great fun catching up on it this evening! > Sarah: > If it weren't for that one thing, Spinner's End would be in my running > for the best-conceived Harry Potter chapter. That is, if you don't > count the fact that it exists. Its mere presence is kind of a > giveaway, if we were supposed to think at the end of HBP that the big > shocker ending was that Snape was evil. There was no chapter 2 of GOF > where Moody talked about how he was actually Barty Jr, no chapter 2 of > PS/SS where Quirrell explained that Voldemort was on the back of his > head, etc. Zara: I have several thoughts about this. (I think this is probably my second favorite chapter in the series, actually...but I prefer another not because I see this one as having any flaws, I just love the other one more). The first, is just to comment that I had a perhaps odd reaction to thid chapter. This chapter was what convinced me that Snape was Dumbledore's spy. Something about the combination of how he was restrained with Bella and perfectly civil with Cissy, and his willingness to take this Vow, just gave me vibes that here we were seeing him act, whereas elsewhere, we were seeing his true self. Second, is that Rowling has said that in a way, HBP and DH are almost like one book. Viewed in that context...this chapter is setting up the desired false expectation to be overturned by "The Prince's Tale". Third, viewed strictly within HBP...I thought the chapter demonstrated Rowling's virtuosity as a storyteller. When Snape showed up in the Tower in your first read, were you just waiting for him to blow Albus away? I know I was not. I had to go back and reread the end of "The Lightning Struck Tower" because I could not believe what I had just read. Yes, it was perhaps more surprising for me because of my reaction to "Spinner's End" mentioned above, but this is a sentiment I have seen in others. Somehow, despite having Snape promise to do it or die, she still manages to shock with the ending. > > Carol: > > As Pippin said, he knew > > exactly how she felt. He had been in her position, begging Dumbledore > > to save Lily's life. How could he refuse to help Narcissa, even if it > > meant sacrificing his own life, under those terms? > Sarah: > His real vow is to complete what he's set out to do on Lily's behalf, > not help all the mothers of the world who may bear some universal > similarity to Lily. No matter how he might empathize with Narcissa, > *his* mission still is what it is. If he fails to help Harry Potter > carry out what he's been set to do, he fails at life, basically. If > he's dead, he probably can't finish his mission. Zara: Using only evidence from HBP, I might have no argument against this view. However, with DH in hand, I disagree. We see Snape risk exposure or death on at least two occasions I can think of that don't really have much to do with his primary missions. (I use the plural, because what that is, actually changes...) First, going back as a spy. This is useful to Albus and the Order, but I do not see its immediate applicability to protecting Harry. If Snape had turned up dead at the start of OotP, would he not be the same failure? The second example is in the Seven Potters raid in DH, when he takes the risk of trying to curse a fellow DE to prevent the killing of Lupin. For this reason, I think Snape absolutely would do things that might endanger him even if they did not contribute to Harry's safety. > Sarah: > He makes the Vow because it's promising the exact same thing to two > different parties. There's no additional danger involved on his part > by making it. It's a win-win situation. Unless he died, then > everyone involved would have some pretty bad repercussions. But Snape > is confident that won't happen, so no worries. Zara: I would disagree about the degree to which he is confident. As he hears the final clause of the Vow, to which he is about to commit himself, his hand twitches in Cissy's. Given how in control he seems throughout the scene, that we see any indication at all here of doubt, tells me he very much knew he was taking a risk. > Montavilla47: > It's a bit hard to square that, however, with Snape in DH, since he seems > to care not a bit about the Malfoys in that book. Maybe he's so deep in > his role that he's sacrificed the Malfoys at that point. Or maybe we're > just on seeing the caring parts because we're stuck in Harry's POV for > most of the book. But it's kind of weird. Zara: It's not Harry's POV that is the problem, I would say, it is Snape's situation. To see Snape caring about the Malfoys, I think we would need to see a scene with just Snape and a Malfoy, but the one time Snape and Malfoys are in a room together, they are with Voldemort as well. Snape seems not to care about their predicament. He is also unconcerned about the callous murder of his colleague, who addresses him in the precise words Albus used before he died, and who is then fed to a snake. I'd guess he's actually reasonably displeased with both of these developments, but powerless to affect either of them. I suppose Rowling could, if she wanted to stress this, have written some way for Snape to secretly help one of the Malfoys, or something of that sort. On the other hand, it would be something akin to the business of Ginny and the Sword, I'd think, that would require us to read between the lines. Draco failed at his task in HBP, yet he and his parents are still around...did Snape influence Voldemort in their favor in some way, using his position as the man of the hour? From scarah at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 03:27:42 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 03:27:42 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184319 > Zara: > We see Snape risk exposure > or death on at least two occasions I can think of that don't really > have much to do with his primary missions. (I use the plural, because > what that is, actually changes...) First, going back as a spy. This is > useful to Albus and the Order, but I do not see its immediate > applicability to protecting Harry. If Snape had turned up dead at the > start of OotP, would he not be the same failure? The second example is > in the Seven Potters raid in DH, when he takes the risk of trying to > curse a fellow DE to prevent the killing of Lupin. Sarah: Yes, if Voldemort killed Snape at the end of GOF that would have been failure. But as we see in Spinner's End, Snape is very good at giving reasons for all of his actions, and working all these years to preserve his role as "Voldemort's spy," should his services be needed again. He explains all this for Bellatrix's benefit in Spinner's End, and I'm willing to believe that part is not far off from what he told Voldemort in GOF. Maybe Voldemort wanted to kill him at first. Snape is good at talking his way out of these things, and explaining his value to Voldemort. Still, Snape looked a little shaky there at the end of GOF. The Order of the Phoenix's real goal is much the same as Harry's goal. It's just that most of the OOTP don't know how to execute most of their goal. They're on a "need to know basis," just like the Death Eaters are supposed to be. So by spying for Dumbledore and the OOTP, Snape has always been helping Harry. The Seven Potters thing, I have no real response to, except that maybe there was so much action that Snape just reckoned he could get away with it. If I were him, I would have just let the other guy kill Lupin and then chalked it up to collateral damage. It's not like Lupin did anything for the rest of the book besides annoy me repeatedly and then die offscreen. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Sep 13 16:18:19 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:18:19 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184320 > Alla: > > Yeah, see to me no matter what backfired on them, it did not backfire > nearly enough like ever to match what hungry and upset twelve year > old was going through when they locked him up, no matter what > backfired on them, it did not match eleven years in the cupboard. > > I wanted them in pain, I wanted them to be just as helpless as Harry was for once. Pippin: For me, The Prince's Tale cancels out this reading. Petunia knows exactly how it feels to be a frightened, slighted child. I just wish she knew how it felt to be a happy, fulfilled adult. Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 13 18:06:43 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:06:43 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184321 Carol earlier: > > As Pippin said, he knew exactly how she felt. He had been in her position, begging Dumbledore to save Lily's life. How could he refuse to help Narcissa, even if it meant sacrificing his own life, under those terms? > > Sarah: > I agree that he understood how she felt, but disagree with the second part, because of the reason he *can* understand how Narcissa feels. His real vow is to complete what he's set out to do on Lily's behalf, not help all the mothers of the world who may bear some universal similarity to Lily. Carol: I'm not talking about helping the mothers of the world. I'm talking about desperate fear for the life of someone you love. He's not identifying with Lily or mothers. He's identifying with Narcissa, whose fear for Draco exactly parallels his own for Lily. He didn't care whether James or Harry died; she doesn't care whether DD or even Snape dies. Her only concern is for Draco. I'm quite sure that he reads her desperate fear, not the details of the plan, which she herself doesn't know, in her eyes. (Certainly, neither of them knows about the Vanishing Cabinet.) I take Snape at his word that he knows LV has ordered Draco to kill Dumbledore, and he knows that's "the deed" that she expects him to perform. And Dumbledore in DH knows about the plan to kill him. How else could he have found out about it except from Snape? He's not reading Draco killing DD in her eyes. He's reading LV killing Draco for failing. That's what she fears, as we know from her words about LV expecting Draco to fail, and that's all she's concerned about. If someone else, say Bellatrix, hed been assigned to kill DD, she wouldn't care at all about the old Muggle lover. She's probably think it serves him right. All IMO, of course. Sarah: No matter how he might empathize with Narcissa, *his* mission still is what it is. If he fails to help Harry Potter carry out what he's been set to do, he fails at life, basically. If he's dead, he probably can't finish his mission. Carol: Well, true. It's rather hard to finish your mission when you're dead. But, still, he's binding himself to do what DD wants, and the price for failure is still his life. Now the only way to avoid going through it is to procrastinate long enough for DD to die of the curse--or to let Draco kill DD, which would be to fail Dumbledore and tear Draco's soul. Anyway, the vow makes his mission *binding*, symbolized by ropes and chains of fire. There's no turning back now. If he fails to protect Draco *or* fails to "do the deed" if Draco wavers, he's dead. If he lets Draco kill DD, he won't die, but he will have failed both Draco and DD. IOW, he didn't have to take the Unbreakable Vow. He could have "slithered out of action" again. But by taking it, he calms and reassures Narcissa, keeping her from doing something desperate. He fools Bellatrix into thinking that he wants DD dead and is therefore a loyal DE (she nevertheless wants to thwart him so that Draco, not Snape, will get the "glory). He agrees to do what both LV and DD want him to do, cementing DD's plans. But he vastly increases the danger to himself. If Draco tries and fails to kill DD, he must either die or become a murderer. The only thing he can do is to try to keep Draco away from DD, make sure he doesn't do anything stupid that will get him expelled or sent to Azkaban (and into LV's hands), On the Tower, DD says, "Severus, please!" It's not *just* that he wants Snape and no one else to kill him, even with the Elder Wand out the window. He wants Snape to live to carry out the rest of his plans. And if Snape fails to "do the deed," which he manifestly does not want to do, DD's plans for Snape to protect the students and help Harry and undermine Voldemort are also out the window. Sarah: (I know Dumbledore still did, kind of, but Snape would have died in much worse standing had he died of some Unbreakable Vow with the Malfoys, or been taken out as a consequence of killing Dumbledore.) Carol: I'm not sure what you mean here. Snape could have died fighting the DEs, refusing to kill DD, and letting one of them kill him. He would have died a hero, but he would also have failed Harry, Draco, and Dumbledore. Or he could have done nothing, as he seemed in danger or doing. It took him a long time to raise his wand. DD had to beg him twice, and desperately. Dying right then from the Vow would not necessarily have affected his "standing" (which does not seem to matter nearly as much to him as it does to us readers), but it would have accomplished nothing. DD would certainly have died anyway, and Draco would have been killed for failing in his mission, with the person who killed him (possibly LV himself) becoming master of the Elder Wand. Harry, coming out from the freezing spell, would have joined in the fight and been killed, and all would be lost. It was crucial for Snape to kill DD himself and live, much more crucial than it would have been without the Vow, in which case, he could have let another DE kill DD and lived, pretending to be loyal. He could even have gotten Draco and Harry off the tower and the DEs and Draco out of Hogwarts, just as he did, without killing DD himself. From Snape's perspective, everything would be fine. Draco's soul would be unsplit, Harry would be safe, he could still carry out his own part of the plan. The only problem would be the ownership of the Elder Wand, which Snape doesn't know about. *With* the UV, he doesn't have that option. He can't let another DE kill Dumbledore. He has to do it himself or die. Sarah: > If Snape thought for a second that he might actually die from any of this, he not only could refuse, he *must* refuse, to preserve his real interest. But that's not an issue for him. Carol: I disagree. He tells DD, *after* he has made the vow, that DD takes too much for granted and that maybe he doesn't want to do it any more. And his hesitation on the tower, along with his expression of seeming hatred (probably extreme anger at DD and self-loathing or revulsion at what he has to do) shows that he has absolutely no wish to do what DD wants him, indeed begs him, to do. He would, I'm sure, rather have died on the tower than do what he has to do. Only DD's reminder of his promise, and perhaps a silent message regarding its importance, convinces him to stay alive. (Maybe what he sees in DD's eyes is Lily or his own doe Patronus, which would remind him of "his real interest.") Sarah: > He reckons everyone involved expects Draco to fail, and Snape to be the one to kill Dumbledore, so the Vow won't kill Snape. And even if Draco actually does manage to pull it off, Snape hasn't broken the Vow, just his promise to Dumbledore. I think Snape is pretty confident that he won't get taken out by someone like Harry Potter as a side effect of killing Dumbledore, with good reason (see: their duel afterwards). Carol: I think you're missing the point, which is that Snape only reluctantly agreed to kill Dumbledore and still, even after the vow, doesn't want to do it. He has agreed, in essence, to do it or die, and it seems that, at times, he'd rather die--or, alternatively, simply hope that the confrontation won't happen. Obviously, he doesn't think that Draco can get DEs into Hogwarts and is taken completely by surprise. Sarah: > He makes the Vow because it's promising the exact same thing to two different parties. There's no additional danger involved on his part by making it. It's a win-win situation. Unless he died, then everyone involved would have some pretty bad repercussions. But Snape is confident that won't happen, so no worries. Carol responds: No additional danger? Now he's committed to murder Dumbledore, which he really doesn't want to do, or die from breaking the vow. It's quite literally kill or be killed, whereas, before, it was only an agreement with Dumbledore that he could choose to break and possibly come out looking like a hero. In the end, he chooses to look like a villain so that he can undermine Voldemort from within. He didn't have to take that vow. He was planning to protect Draco and he knew that both DD and LV wanted him to kill DD. But now he has no choice. If he fails, he dies, and DD's plan to defeat Voldemort dies with him. > Sarah: > ,snip> He wouldn't even have killed Dumbledore in the first place if Dumbledore wasn't dying already. But these plans were all made after Snape (and only Snape and Dumbledore) knew that Dumbledore had a year, tops, to live. If he'd been approached to kill Dumbledore when Dumbledore was healthy, he could have just said, "Please, he's so much more useful alive, where I can spy on him." Carol responds: I don't think he was directly approached by LV. He only thought or sensed that LV expected him to do it. (Maybe that's the idea he got when LV told him about Draco. And I don't think that LV would have accepted any reasons or excuses not to obey him. But, of course, he would have refused *Dumbledore's* request to kill him if DD hadn't been dying. Carol, who is being distracted by someone trying to talk to her and apologizes for any sbsurdities in this post From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 13 19:35:33 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 19:35:33 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184322 > > Alla: > > > > Yeah, see to me no matter what backfired on them, it did not backfire > > nearly enough like ever to match what hungry and upset twelve year > > old was going through when they locked him up, no matter what > > backfired on them, it did not match eleven years in the cupboard. > > > > I wanted them in pain, I wanted them to be just as helpless as Harry > was for once. > > Pippin: > For me, The Prince's Tale cancels out this reading. Petunia knows > exactly how it feels to be a frightened, slighted child. I just wish > she knew how it felt to be a happy, fulfilled adult. Alla: It cancelled what for you? Desire to see Petunia in pain? My reading does not exclude the fact that Petunia knows how it feels to be a frightened, slighted child. I fully see that she does know that indeed. Or are you simply saying that you felt pity for Petunia after you saw her like that? Not me, I am more angry at her now. The fact that she knows that and she still treated her nephew like that, well that makes me angry. I suppose it is first and foremost the impossibility of identifying with Petunia's actions, ever. There is absolutely positively no way I would be able to treat my niece the way Petunia treated Harry and/or let herself be silent when her husband and child treated Harry the way they did. Regardless of whether I would ever had a row with my niece's parents, **no matter** how serious that row would have been. That is a given, Pippin, please take me at my word on that. This is something I was trying to imagine, to relate to Petunia somehow, especially after book 7, since I totally hear what you are saying about her being a miserable child, but I can't. But after all, I would not give Snape a pass in his treatment of Harry despite his past with James either. Nope, I find it more inexcusable, not less. JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 13 20:05:31 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 20:05:31 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 5 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184323 "and I only work part-time at Gringotts for my Eenglish..." - p.92, paperback Alla: Do we ever hear what exactly Fleur does at Gringott for Her Eenglish? Translates from French or something totally unrelated to translations? "She can't change her appearance like she used to," explained Hermione. "I think her powers must have been affected by shock, or something" - p.95 Alla: Wait, we know now that Tonks was really depressed over Lupin, was she ever in shock over Sirius or not? And if she was, and her powers were affected, why Harry's were not? "Dumbledore says people find it far easier to forgive others for being wrong than being right" said Hermione - p.96 Alla: Is he also thinking about himself and Aberforth here? "He knew that Ron and Hermione were more shocked than they were letting on, but the mere fact that they were still there on either side of him, speaking bracing words of comfort, not shrinking from him as though he was contaminated or dangerous, was worth more than he could ever tell him" - p.99 Alla: Is it just me or is Harry overreacting here just a tiny bit? I mean, of course being friends with Harry was always dangerous and I love how they stick by him, etc. When I say overreaction, I am wondering why exactly knowing the prophecy would make Ron and Hermione leave him? I am just saying that it is not like anything drastically changed for them, IMO. From philipwhiuk at hotmail.com Sat Sep 13 22:30:53 2008 From: philipwhiuk at hotmail.com (Philip) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 23:30:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP post DH look chapter 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184324 Alla says: Wait, we know now that Tonks was really depressed over Lupin, was she ever in shock over Sirius or not? And if she was, and her powers were affected, why Harry's were not? Philip responds: If we assume that she was affected by the death of Sirius, it wouldn't be unusual that it affected Harry differently. People deal with grief in different ways, Harry seems to have used it as a shield against his connection Voldemort (noticeably after Dobby, but a similar effect (the blocking of his mind from Voldemort) occurred after Sirius death. Even if he didn't know the reason then - and despite Dumbledore suggesting an alternative 'love' (which is connected at any rate), I still think grief was responsible for both temporary barriers. In the immediacy after his death Harry was also affected somewhat. The use of an Unforgivable and the vengeance we saw was never before seen (I know he didn't know them before, but acting out of vengeance, was, up until then, not in Harry's persona). Tonks meanwhile is a Metamorphmagus and as such her magic power, appearance and mental state are always closely linked. I looked for a specific reference, but it appears the movies took more liberties on this one. Despite the lack of reference, I do think that this is case. So the fact the 'she is having trouble morphing' is a result of the link between mental state and magical abilities. As a character, Tonks has always struck me as a character who's inherent magic - similar to the stunts Harry performed without a wand - have stayed with her in a very confined form (Meta-morphing). This reflects her attitude, clumsiness and such. I doubt we'll ever know the extent to which Sirius and Remus were each responsible for her mental state - unless anyone has any specific references. Philip From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Sep 14 02:23:04 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 02:23:04 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184325 Alla: > > > I wanted them in pain, I wanted them to be just as helpless as Harry was for once. > > > > Pippin: > > For me, The Prince's Tale cancels out this reading. Petunia knows > > exactly how it feels to be a frightened, slighted child. I just wish she knew how it felt to be a happy, fulfilled adult. > > > Alla: > > Not me, I am more angry at her now. The fact that she knows that and she still treated her nephew like that, well that makes me angry. > > I suppose it is first and foremost the impossibility of identifying > with Petunia's actions, ever. There is absolutely positively no way I would be able to treat my niece the way Petunia treated Harry and/or let herself be silent when her husband and child treated Harry the way they did. Pippin: That's not the point. I don't see myself acting the way Petunia did, and I don't condone what she did. I am angry about it, or I would be, if it was real. But I don't want to see her in pain because I already am seeing it -- she's been in pain all the time, IMO, just like Sirius was when he was mistreating Kreacher. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 14 03:49:41 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 03:49:41 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184326 Alla: I have only couple moments to mention from this chapter which I was thinking about in light of DH, but please as always feel free to add your own moments if you see something from the chapter differently after seventh book. "Did you hear about Florean Fortescue, Remus?" asked Bill, who was being plied with wine by Fleur. "The man who ran_" "--the ice-cream place in Diagon Alley?" Harry interrupted, with an unpleasant, hollow sensation in the pit of his stomach. "He used to give me free ice creams. What's happened to him?" "Dragged off, by the look of his place" "Why?" asked Ron, while Mrs. Weasley pointedly glared at Bill. "Who knows ? He must've upset them somehow. He was a good man, Florean." - p.106 Alla: This quote is one of the reasons why I never thought that Muggleborns without wands in DH or any other pictures of destruction and war were sloppily done or anything like that. I find this quote to be one of the most chilling in the book and beatifully beatifully IMO showing how the war came so close and knocked on everybody's door. I do not know what I found the most upsetting here, but probably the matter of fact way Bill speaks about his fate. "No?" said Malfoy, and Harry knew just by his tone, that Malfoy was sneering. "Perhaps this will make you more confident." - p.125 Alla: So what's the verdict? Does he have a mark or does he not? From catlady at wicca.net Sun Sep 14 06:31:19 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 06:31:19 -0000 Subject: Thestral / Acromantula / Albus / Baby on Doorstep / Albus / Snape / Albus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184327 Pippin wrote in : << But wizard-born children won't have seen Fantasia and wouldn't have our preconceived idea about what a black flying horse ought to look like. >> But many of them will have seen non-invisible flying horses, such as flying palominos, the Abraxan breed that that pulls the Beauxbatons carriage, so they will have the preconceived idea that a black flying horse looks like the other kinds of flying horse, except for its color. (It never before occurred to me to wonder if Abraxas Malfoy and Abraxan flying horses were named after each other. They could be named after him if it were he who established the breed. He could be named after them if his parents were really into them. ) Still, I appreciate your elaboration on the traditional 'be glad that horses don't fly' joke. Carol wrote in : << I doubt that any parents would want their children to attend Hogwarts until the entire [Acromantula] colony had been wiped out. >> One thing about wizarding parents, they are not overprotective. Alla wrote in : << 11. Were you surprised by any of Aberforth's revelations? Did they affect your view of Albus? >> To which Potioncat replied in : << By this point, Albus Dumbledore has fallen far from the pedestal many of us once thought he stood on. >> Part of Aberforth's story that shocked me was that Albus had been such an suck-up little swot in his school days. I had thought he had been a Gryffindor troublemaker like James and Sirius or some such. I can't deny that Rowling provided a clue to this: Albus never found the Room of Requirement until like November of GoF, when so many other students and teachers had found it long before. However, James and Sirius were among the students who *hadn't* found it, as shown in OoP when Harry was seeking a location for his Defense club. Montavilla47 wrote in : << when he was the one who left a baby on their doorstep in the first place. Without even ringing the doorbell. For all he knew, Harry could have been eaten by the neighborhood schnauser before Petunia even opened the door. >> Not to defend Dumbledore or anything, but surely he left the baby wrapped in protective spells as well as a little blanket. I don't mean fabulous dramatic powerful spells to protect him from Lord Voldemort, but ordinary child care spells any wizarding nanny would use, so that dogs wouldn't bite him and he wouldn't toddle out of bounds and to clean his diapers instantaneously. Maybe they were even built into the baby blanket when someone bought it. Carol wrote in : << not just his (hypocritical) lack of sympathy for Snape, who was worried about Lily but not about James or their son. Considering that DD (snip) indifferent to the suffering and deaths of unknown people if he could only keep Harry safe >> DD intended his concern for the suffering and deaths of unknown future people to be expressed by raising Harry with brainwashing and manipulation to be a suicide weapon against LV. He expected to feel no guilt or compassion or qualms about this because because he would feel emotionally attached only to his Plan, not to the child right there in front of him. I think his willingness to sacrifice the child in front of him as long as his Plan succeeded, is a better parallel to young Snape not caring whether James and baby Harry died as long as Lily lived, than is his willingness to risk the Plan in order to let Harry thrive for a couple of years of semi-normal childhood. I had a similar reaction to Pippin's : << I think we are meant to look to Dumbledore for a clue to Snape's feelings: pity for Narcissa, mingled with disgust at her lack of concern for other innocent lives. >> I question whether 'disgust' is the right word. To me, disgust is a visceral rather than intellectual emotion, so Snape would feel 'disgust' at Narcissa's lack of concern for other lives only if his concern for those lives was also visceral. I think even heroic Snape doesn't go in for compassion and empathy (words for feeling other people's pain as a visceral feeling). I know he saves people when he can in preference to standing there watching them die, but I think he does it out of a sense of duty, or because he decided intellectually that he will do it, not because standing there watching people die nauseates him or breaks his heart. (Which incidentally answers Scarah's question of why he bothered to save Lupin.) For the same reasons, I question whether DD really felt disgust when he said 'You disgust me'. Whether he felt it or not, he said it to manipulate young Snape. This is the DD who sent trusting adults on what they didn't know were suicide missions all the time without feeling nauseated or grief-stricken and expected to do the same with little Harry as I mentioned in my above comment to Carol. Not a whole lot of visceral compassion and empathy. From kersberg at chello.nl Sun Sep 14 13:19:03 2008 From: kersberg at chello.nl (kamion53) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 13:19:03 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184328 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > > Kamion not really areaction to the last post, but more a remark after reading several reactions: I get the idea that Spinner's End of HBP and The Prince's Tale from DH don't match up quite well: In DH it's can be read that Snape is the first to reach Dumbledore after he is inflicked by the curse of Marvolo's ring, he is pretty angry Dumbledore has not summoned him sooner. When reading that part one would conclude that Spinner's End comes after this scene. This because he tells the two sisters that Dumbledore is getting old and has sustained a serious injury--- which of course is the blackened hand. But reading further in the Prince's Tale Dumbledore starts talking about Voldie's plan to kill him and using Draco as a tool ( that's ought to fail). How does he know this? Has he heard it from Snape? The text does not give that indication. Did the Spinner End scene already happen at this point? I am tempted to think not, that it comes after the promiss Snape make to finish DD off at the right time and therefor he he is making a Vow to Narcissa he de facto already has made to DD. Is this a screw up in chronology or was Snape already informed by Voldemort himself before Draco was told and he knew what Narcissa was going to tell him? I am confused. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Sep 14 16:34:41 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 16:34:41 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184329 > Pippin: > It puts Snape into the same position as Dumbledore when Snape begged > him to save Lily, reinforced by the water imagery. Just like Snape > before her, Narcissa does not realize that she would be helped in any > case. > > I think we are meant to look to Dumbledore for a clue to Snape's > feelings: pity for Narcissa, mingled with disgust at her lack of > concern for other innocent lives. Potioncat: Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful! I suppose the only difference is that Snape asked nothing in return. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sun Sep 14 16:38:52 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 16:38:52 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184330 > Kamion: > In DH it's can be read that Snape is the first to reach Dumbledore > after he is inflicked by the curse of Marvolo's ring, he is pretty > angry Dumbledore has not summoned him sooner. > When reading that part one would conclude that Spinner's End comes > after this scene. This because he tells the two sisters that > Dumbledore is getting old and has sustained a serious injury--- which > of course is the blackened hand. Zara: Yes, this is correct, this is why I am certain Spinner's End came after Snape's agreement to kill Dumbledore. > Kamion: > But reading further in the Prince's Tale Dumbledore starts talking > about Voldie's plan to kill him and using Draco as a tool ( that's > ought to fail). > How does he know this? Has he heard it from Snape? The text does not > give that indication. Zara: I think it must be because Snape told Dumbledore. Why would we doubt this, after DH? He is Albus's spy, and he was told of the plan by Voldemort (as he explains to Bella in HBP). Naturally, he would tell Albus such a thing. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Sep 14 16:56:55 2008 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 14 Sep 2008 16:56:55 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/14/2008, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1221411415.20.48623.m46@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184331 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday September 14, 2008 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2008 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 14 18:41:23 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 18:41:23 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184332 Alla quoting: > "She can't change her appearance like she used to," explained Hermione. "I think her powers must have been affected by shock, or something" - p.95 > > Alla: > > Wait, we know now that Tonks was really depressed over Lupin, was she ever in shock over Sirius or not? And if she was, and her powers were affected, why Harry's were not? Carol responds: I think this is one of many instances of Hermione or another character being partially right. Clearly, Tonks' powers *have* been affected by "shock *or something.*" But Hermione suggests (psychoanalyzing a character she doesn't know particularly well somewhat less accurately, IMO, than she similarly analyzes Cho Chang and Sirius Black), that Tonks is suffering from survivor's guilt and somehow feels that it's her fault that Sirius died. That suggestion is a red herring (and a rather weak one since it isn't reinforced by any evidence). Later, Harry thinks that she's mourning for her cousin (first cousin once removed) Sirius, and her reaction is confusion. She's left her post to ask Dumbledore about Lupin's safety because she's heard that someone has been killed by a werewolf. Someone (Hermione?) points out that Tonks didn't know Sirius all that well. He was some fifteen years older than she was, closer to Andromeda's age than Nymphadora's, and he was in prison for twelve years when she was a child and adolescent, and in hiding for two years after that (PoA and GoF). She may have seen him occasionally when she was a small child, but she essentially met him for the first time when she joined the Order between the end of GoF and the beginning of PoA. She would have met Lupin at the same time, but it was the kindly, low-key werewolf and not the rash and sometimes surly ex-prisoner that she fell in love with. Tonks's hair does not change color immediately after Sirius Black's death. She's her normal self at the end of OoP, having recovered from whatever green-lit spell nearly killed her. She talks and acts in her usual way as the guard of Order members confronts the Dursleys, and her hair is "bubble-gum pink." Only in HBP do we see it brown. We first see the brown-haired Tonks acting depressed at the Weasleys where Mrs. Weasley invites Tonks to a dinner that Mad-eye and Lupin will attend and Tonks turns it down. Later, Harry thinks that Mrs. Weasley is trying to interest Bill in Tonks, not realizing that it's Lupin she's focusing on. We get some rather clever misdirection from Harry's pov: "She [Mrs. Weasley] gave Lupin an annoyed look as if it was all his fault that she was getting Fleur for a daughter-in-law instead of Tonks" (HBP Am. ed. 340). In hindsight, it's clear that Mrs. Weasley knows exactly what's wrong with Tonks and *does* blame Lupin for not returning her love or trying to suppress his own feelings for Tonks. (We never quite know how he feels about her,but it's perhaps significant that of all the reasons he gives for not marrying her--he's too old, too poor, and too dangerous--he never says that he doesn't love her.) If I were writing a fanfic, I'd have Lupin sitting by her bedside as she recovers, holding her hand and gradually realizing that he loves her and the recovering Tonks becoming more and more infatuated with the older man she had developed a secret crush on very soon after meeting him. Her happiness at the end of OoP would be based on the realization that he loved her, too, and on the hugs or even kisses that he gave her in celebration of her recovery and to comfort her for whatever grief she felt for Sirius. At some point before HBP, she would hopefully mention marriage, and then the blow would fall. He loves her but he can't marry her for the reasons he states in the hospital wing near the end of the book. The talks between them that Hermione thinks are intended to comfort her and persuade her that she's not responsible for Sirius's death would be those same explanations given over and over. ("It can't be. I love you too much to expose you to such danger. I'm not good enough for you. Find a young and whole man who can give you the life you deserve," ad nauseum.) At any rate, we have only hints of their conversations, but the evidence throughout the book, as well as her happiness and recovery after her marriage and her panic when she finds that he's fighting Dolohov at Hogwarts (she's left her baby with her mother to join him in the fight) indicates to me that her near-obsessive love for Lupin (requited or not) and her depression when he refuses to marry her is the cause of her lost powers, just as unrequited love for a Muggle caused Merope to lose (or forgo) her powers. IMO, it has nothing to do with grief for sirius at all. That's a red herring. We don't see excessive grief (which Harry suffers more than once, and Snape suffers before the books begin) affect anyone's powers. Only unrequited love (or a refusal to marry the girl you love for her own good, which amounts to the same thing) has that effect. (Unrequited love has altogether different but equally exaggerated effects in Snape's case, but I don't want to go OT.) > Alla: > > Is it just me or is Harry overreacting here just a tiny bit? I mean, of course being friends with Harry was always dangerous and I love how they stick by him, etc. When I say overreaction, I am wondering why exactly knowing the prophecy would make Ron and Hermione leave him? > > I am just saying that it is not like anything drastically changed for them, IMO. Carol: Oops. I accidentally snipped the quote you're reacting to. Sorry. Anyway, I think this reaction is in character for Harry, who expected his friends to reject him when he thought he was possessed and was also surprised and grateful when Ron didn't laugh at him at some point (drawing a blank here, but it will pop into my mind the moment I hit Send ). Also, in this instance, I understand why Harry would feel contaminated. He's in a situation very similar to Snape's predicament later on, knowing that he must kill or be killed. Of course, he won't be considered a murdering traitor and suffer the vilification that Snape endures, but he feels that killing another person, even one as depraved and removed from humanity as Voldemort, is murder, and the choice is to commit murder or be murdered. (I suspect that young soldiers in their first battle feel exactly the same way, and some never recover.) But also, and I don't know that anyone else will agree with me, I think there's a human tendency to shun the dying or the condemned. (I recall my then-husband years and years ago revealing to some so-called friends that he'd been diagnosed with Hodgkins disease and would have to take chemotherapy treatments. You could almost see them backing away in horror. He might as well have told them that he had leprosy. They shunned us from that point forward. People are afraid of death and their own mortality. My ex is still alive and has been in remission for decades, BTW.) Maybe Harry knew or sensed that people view the condemned or the dying and thought that he might lose his friends if they knew it was likely that he would die. Or maybe he thought that he would have to face death alone, that they wouldn't endanger themselves if they knew the inevitable outcome. He does almost the same thing at the end of HBP, expecting to face Voldemort alone. He consistently underestimates the strength of his friends' love for and loyalty to him (and I say that even knowing that Ron almost fails Harry, Hermione, and himself in DH; he comes through and destroys his own fears and insecurities through the symbolic act of destroying the Horcrux). Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, we're seeing a reaction from Harry that's perfectly consistent with his reactions in other books. Philip wrote: In the immediacy after his death Harry was also affected somewhat. The use of an Unforgivable and the vengeance we saw was never before seen (I know he didn't know them before, but acting out of vengeance, was, up until then, not in Harry's persona). Carol responds: In PoA, he wants to kill Sirius Black for supposedly betraying his parents. The narrator states that he had never felt such hatred before. It's very similar to his reaction to Bellatrix for murdering Sirius in OoP. The difference is that he's older and more powerful and he knows the Unforgiveable Curses now. It's interesting, however, that he uses Crucio and not Avada Kedavra not only here but against Snape (who easily defletdts it) and against Amycus Carrow in DH. Setting aside his actual ability to use the curse, it's interesting that once he knows about the Unforgiveables, his choice is always to torture, to punish, not to kill. Whether that's admirable or not, we can all decide for ourselves. At any rate, the desire for vengeance, which we first see in PoA, is, IMO, one of the demons that Harry conquers in DH, thanks to Snape's memories and Harry's own decision to sacrifice himself. Carol, off to make lunch now From scarah at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 20:01:14 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:01:14 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184333 > Carol responds: > IMO, it has nothing to do with grief for sirius at all. That's a red > herring. We don't see excessive grief (which Harry suffers more than > once, and Snape suffers before the books begin) affect anyone's > powers. Only unrequited love (or a refusal to marry the girl you love > for her own good, which amounts to the same thing) has that effect. > (Unrequited love has altogether different but equally exaggerated > effects in Snape's case, but I don't want to go OT.) Sarah: No argument with the hair thing being because of Tonks' feelings about Lupin. It's obvious since it fixed itself by the time they were sitting together at the funeral. I don't get what you're saying about Lupin, though. Did he ever lose his powers? Actually, I'm not convinced Lupin was really ever all that into Tonks. He gave her a 'it's not you, it's me' speech, but it didn't work, and everyone was on his case about it, so he married her anyway. Then he wanted to leave her and go camping in a tent with Harry Potter for a year. Tonks didn't seem to lose her powers either, apart from just the one. I figured it's the nature of Metamorphmagic, being innate and not learned and all. I thought it was just kind of a flighty, fluffy power that's first to waver. I also agree about something like a normal grieving process not making people lose their powers. From an evolutionary standpoint, wizards just wouldn't have survived this long if that was the case. Wizards are attacked, some die, the rest lose their powers and stand defenseless. It would never have worked out for them. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 14 20:34:10 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:34:10 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184334 Carol responds: I think this is one of many instances of Hermione or another character being partially right. Clearly, Tonks' powers *have* been affected by "shock *or something.*" But Hermione suggests (psychoanalyzing a character she doesn't know particularly well somewhat less accurately, IMO, than she similarly analyzes Cho Chang and Sirius Black), that Tonks is suffering from survivor's guilt and somehow feels that it's her fault that Sirius died. That suggestion is a red herring (and a rather weak one since it isn't reinforced by any evidence). Alla: Is it a red herring though? I am really not sure one way or another. I mean, there is no question in my mind that Tonks is affected by Lupin's love. But I mean, shock, isn't it a bit too strong? What I am trying to say is not that I am rejecting the idea for her being affected of her beloved death or wound or anything like that, but what exactly does she have to be in shock about Lupin at the beginning of HBP? She can be worried, yes, but shocked? Carol: Later, Harry thinks that she's mourning for her cousin (first cousin once removed) Sirius, and her reaction is confusion. She's left her post to ask Dumbledore about Lupin's safety because she's heard that someone has been killed by a werewolf. Alla: Well, yes, of course. Remember I am not rejecting her being worried over Lupin, it is after all canon, what I am wondering is whether survivor's guilt is here or not at all? Because it seems to me that Hermione hints that Tonks has same thing as Harry has, and if Tonks does not have that, it sort of makes no sense to me as relates to Harry's story. Because if the point here is to say that Hermione is wrong, well, then it is as if those words have no meaning for Harry either IMO. Carol: Someone (Hermione?) points out that Tonks didn't know Sirius all that well. He was some fifteen years older than she was, closer to Andromeda's age than Nymphadora's, and he was in prison for twelve years when she was a child and adolescent, and in hiding for two years after that (PoA and GoF). She may have seen him occasionally when she was a small child, but she essentially met him for the first time when she joined the Order between the end of GoF and the beginning of PoA. She would have met Lupin at the same time, but it was the kindly, low-key werewolf and not the rash and sometimes surly ex-prisoner that she fell in love with. Alla: In my mind, the amount of time they knew each other (Tonks and Sirius) is more than enough to be upset about the death of family member. But that's not the only thing Hermione suggests, is it not? She is talking about survivor's guilt and you can have it about the person you are unrelated to, especially if she feels that as law enforcement member, she failed to save somebody. She did not fail of course, but it is just sounds very plausible and logical to me. And you said it yourself; she met Lupin as an adult at the same time. She fell in love with him yes, but again ? what shock? JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 14 20:51:12 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:51:12 -0000 Subject: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184335 Okay, before I go any further may I just say how dismissively I look at Malfoy in this book now. When I read it before DH I always used to worry about Malfoy seriously harming Harry and Co, I never dismissed him as their enemy, etc and I still do so in the earlier books, but in this one? All that I am thinking now even when he boasts to his Slytherinsbreaks Harry's nose is something like that - you silly little boy, who cannot make one good decision without getting in the whole lot of trouble, just go away and wait till you will be forced to kill your Headmaster. Then maybe your head will clear up somewhat. "It looks as if it's died," said Hermione, with a nauseated expression. "But there are some injuries you can't cure... old curses... and there are poisons without antidotes..." - p.166 Alla: Yeah, yeah, JKR you put it all there very nicely, seen those clues, really really did not want to believe those clues. REALLY did not want to believe them. :) "Hmph," snorted Professor Mcgonagall. "It's high time your grandmother learned to be proud of the grandson she's got, rather than the one she thinks she ought to have - particularly after what happened at the Ministry" p.174 Alla: That is why I love Minerva, because I want to believe that despite her being an *sshole to Neville several times, I believe that she learned to appreciate him as well. "Do you remember me telling you we are practicing nonverbal spells, Potter?" "Yes," said Harry stiffly. "Yes, sir" "There's no need to call me "sir", Professor" - p.180 Alla: God, I love this, I just so love this. Funny, Snape indeed does not do demonstration of Unforgivables. Not much here, but again feel free to comment on whatever moments you like. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 14 23:35:12 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 23:35:12 -0000 Subject: Thestral / Acromantula / Albus / Baby on Doorstep / Albus / Snape / Albus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184336 Pippin wrote: > > << But wizard-born children won't have seen Fantasia and wouldn't have our preconceived idea about what a black flying horse ought to look like. >> Catlady responded: > But many of them will have seen non-invisible flying horses, such as flying palominos, the Abraxan breed that that pulls the Beauxbatons carriage, so they will have the preconceived idea that a black flying horse looks like the other kinds of flying horse, except for its color. > > (It never before occurred to me to wonder if Abraxas Malfoy and Abraxan flying horses were named after each other. They could be named after him if it were he who established the breed. He could be named after them if his parents were really into them.) Carol notes: I found this online. Don't know how authoritative it is: "Abraxas (Malfoy) - The supreme Gnostic Deity. Had the body of a man, the head of a cock, and serpents for feet. This image depicts him holding a shield and whip. In some stories, he is referred to as a demon. It is believed "Abra-cadabra" originated from his name." And from the same site: "Abraxan (Powerful flying horse, mentioned in Fantastic Beasts) - Abraxus was the name of a flying horse that pulled Helios, the sun god's chariot through the sky in Greco-Roman mythology." It looks as if "Abraxas" and "Abraxan" aren't related. Carol earlier: > > << not just his (hypocritical) lack of sympathy for Snape, who was worried about Lily but not about James or their son. Considering that DD (snip) indifferent to the suffering and deaths of unknown people if he could only keep Harry safe >> Catlady responded: > DD intended his concern for the suffering and deaths of unknown future people to be expressed by raising Harry with brainwashing and manipulation to be a suicide weapon against LV. > > He expected to feel no guilt or compassion or qualms about this because because he would feel emotionally attached only to his Plan, not to the child right there in front of him. > > I think his willingness to sacrifice the child in front of him as long as his Plan succeeded, is a better parallel to young Snape not caring whether James and baby Harry died as long as Lily lived, than is his willingness to risk the Plan in order to let Harry thrive for a couple of years of semi-normal childhood. Carol again: Regardless of which is the better parallel, all of them are instances of his (apparent) indifference to the lives of others. And I'm not sure about any emotional attachment to his plan; I think it's purely intellectual, just like his plans for world domination at not quite eighteen. The reason I cited that parallel (which you snipped) is that it occurred before he expressed disgust at young Snape's indifference to the fate of two people. Another example could be young DD's indifference to Ariana's plight--not her life, admittedly, but he already knew that she was a danger to others and perhaps to himself. And perhaps he had already started manipulating Order members before he took Snape to task, not to mention that he immediately took advantage of Severus's desperation and expressed willingness to do "anything" to protect Lily by placing him in the gravest danger. He hadn't yet placed baby Harry with the Dursleys or started planning to raise him, in Snape's words, as "a pig to the slaughter," so we can charge him with hypocrisy there except after the fact. I was trying to find examples of DD's indifference to the lives of others that would be applicable at the time he spoke to Snape, not afterwards. Actually, I think Ariana alone would suffice--his plans for world domination were more important to him than his sister's care and well-being (and his brother's for that matter), whereas the life of the girl Severus loved was more important to him than the lives of her husband and child (which he ended up also begging DD to protect--not to mention that he spent the rest of his life protecting Harry for Lily's sake even after she died). He feels and expresses immediate remorse for his part in Lily's predicament and death such as we don't see from Dumbledore until the cave scene, nearly one hundred years after his infatuation with Grindelwald and world domination resulted in Ariana's death. (It doesn't matter who actually killed her; Albus's neglect placed her in jeopardy.) What business does he have calling a young, repentant Death Eater disgusting? I don't hate Dumbledore, thanks to "King's Cross," but his hypocrisy in the scene where he calls young Snape disgusting is, well, disgusting. And I don't care for his tendency to praise his own intelligence and underplay other people's contributions, either. As i I told Alla, it's not just this scene that I find disturbing. It's the side of Dumbledore revealed by Snape's memories of DD in "the Prince's Tale" and, to a lesser degree, in Aberforth's reminiscences, that caused me to lose almost all respect and affection for him. Catlady: > I question whether DD really felt disgust when he said 'You disgust me'. Whether he felt it or not, he said it to manipulate young Snape. This is the DD who sent trusting adults on what they didn't know were suicide missions all the time without feeling nauseated or grief-stricken and expected to do the same with little Harry as I mentioned in my above comment to Carol. Not a whole lot of visceral compassion and empathy. Carol responds: I agree that he was manipulating Severus, but I think he actually did feel disgust, perhaps not realizing how great his own indifference to the suffering and death of anonymous people was. the mere fact that young Snape had joined the Death Eaters contributed to that disgust, hypocritical though it was. He could also see that young Snape's suffering and repentance were real and he used that suffering to his own, or his cause's, advantage. I'm not so sure about his sending trusting adults on a suicide mission, though. Mad-eye and the others knew that they were risking their lives. As Sirius Black said, prophetically, as it turns out, there are some causes worth dying for. You don't join an organization like the Order and accept the missions DD sends you on without knowing (as Snape did went he went to LV at the end of GoF and when he killed DD and no doubt on numerous other occasions) that you could might not come back from that mission. I guess I see DD as calculating, manipulative, secretive, egotistical, and hypocritical but not quite as cold and unfeeling as you make him sound. In fact, your version of Dumbledore sounds like Milton's Satan: "Evil, be thou my good." Carol, who sees DD as seriously flawed but not monstrous From juli17 at aol.com Sun Sep 14 23:47:55 2008 From: juli17 at aol.com (julie) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 23:47:55 -0000 Subject: Snape / Albus section of Catlady's post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184337 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > I had a similar reaction to Pippin's > : > > << I think we are meant to look to Dumbledore for a clue to Snape's > feelings: pity for Narcissa, mingled with disgust at her lack of > concern for other innocent lives. >> > > I question whether 'disgust' is the right word. To me, disgust is a > visceral rather than intellectual emotion, so Snape would feel > 'disgust' at Narcissa's lack of concern for other lives only if his > concern for those lives was also visceral. I think even heroic Snape > doesn't go in for compassion and empathy (words for feeling other > people's pain as a visceral feeling). I know he saves people when he > can in preference to standing there watching them die, but I think he > does it out of a sense of duty, or because he decided intellectually > that he will do it, not because standing there watching people die > nauseates him or breaks his heart. (Which incidentally answers > Scarah's question of why he bothered to save Lupin.) > > For the same reasons, I question whether DD really felt disgust when > he said 'You disgust me'. Whether he felt it or not, he said it to > manipulate young Snape. This is the DD who sent trusting adults on > what they didn't know were suicide missions all the time without > feeling nauseated or grief-stricken and expected to do the same with > little Harry as I mentioned in my above comment to Carol. Not a whole > lot of visceral compassion and empathy. > Julie: I agree. Carol felt betrayed by Dumbledore's lack of empathy for Snape in the DH scene above, and Alla did not. Like Carol, I did feel quite betrayed at first, and it was this scene, where young Snape comes to Dumbledore intent on saving Lily, that finally and irrevocably pried my fingers loose from my desperate grip on the "Dumbledore as kind, compassionate all-around epitome of goodness and best Wizard ever to grace the WW" theory. And it really has nothing to do with Snape or whether he *deserves* empathy or sympathy or compassion. What one deserves and what one gets is as much based on the person doing the giving as the one receiving it. I have no doubt McGonagall would have been just as severe and unforgiving as Dumbledore, and her "You digust me!" would have been filled with genuine feeling. Moody would have simply hexed Snape and tossed him in Azkaban after his desperate plea to save Lily. But the Dumbledore I thought I knew, the one who was apparently so desperate to save Draco's soul--him I expected to show compassion for Snape. Not to ignore his crimes, but to offer Snape a second chance and salvation as much (more, even) for the fate of Snape's soul as for anything Snape could do to help Dumbledore defeat Voldemort. That Dumbledore showed not a single ounce of true sympathy or concern for Snape's pain (again, whether Snape deserved such or not), was the final nail in the coffin for me. The real Dumbledore isn't about second chances at all that I can see, not unless those second chances serve his own goals. He's not interested in saving anyone's soul, unless again it happens incidentally in accordance with achieving his goals. He accepted Sirius's imprisonment in Azkaban without any protest or any further investigation--and this was a Gryffindor invited into his Order! Throughout his years as Headmaster he did nothing at all to sway the Slytherin children from following the paths set out by their Death Eater parents (and, really, how much could Dumbledore give a damn about Draco's soul if he never showed an ounce of real concern about any of Draco's classmates, or any of the Slytherin students of Snape's era, all so openly choosing the wrong path straight to Voldemort?). I don't believe Dumbledore *wanted* any of his students to join Voldemort, Slytherins or otherwise, but he believed that a hands-off approach is not only acceptable but right-- even children are left to make their "own" choices. He ignored the reality that no one, child or adult, makes choices in a vacuum. There are always societal and peer pressures, family expectations, and a host of other influences that affect our choices. Dumbledore's *own* choice was to deliberately exert no influence on Hogwarts students headed in the wrong direction (nor apparently to request or require that the teachers under him make any effort at all to do so). While he may have had his own justifications for such an approach, to me a deeply Good person would do everything he could to help children under his/her care and guidance to make the right decisions (my opinion, not everyone may agree). Rather Dumbledore sat back and popped lemon drops while Rome--er, Hogwarts nearly destroyed itself from the inside. I know others saw this colder and more calculating Dumbledore coming, and there was plenty of evidence earlier in the books. I think the misdirection of Dumbledore's apparent deep concern for Draco's soul in HBP was what led me to cling so tenaciously to the concept of a good Dumbledore, i.e. a loving and empathetic Dumbledore (Jesus-like if you will), rather than a manipulative and emotionally distanced Dumbledore (more in the Old Testament God role) who was on the side of Good but not particularly infused with any more goodness than the next person (and quite a bit less than many). If saving Draco's soul hadn't been a direct consequence of furthering Dumbledore's own plan (making his imminent death more productive in defeating Voldemort), I think Draco would have been left entirely on his own to decide between saving his soul or his family. Julie From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 01:33:58 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 01:33:58 -0000 Subject: Manipulative Albus redux WAS: Re: Snape / Albus section of Catlady's post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184338 Julie: I agree. Carol felt betrayed by Dumbledore's lack of empathy for Snape in the DH scene above, and Alla did not. Like Carol, I did feel quite betrayed at first, and it was this scene, where young Snape comes to Dumbledore intent on saving Lily, that finally and irrevocably pried my fingers loose from my desperate grip on the "Dumbledore as kind, compassionate all-around epitome of goodness and best Wizard ever to grace the WW" theory. And it really has nothing to do with Snape or whether he *deserves* empathy or sympathy or compassion. What one deserves and what one gets is as much based on the person doing the giving as the one receiving it. Alla: Right, I definitely was not feeling betrayed by Dumbledore in that scene. Again, this not to be confused with me thinking that Dumbledore acted as compassionate person in that scene. I of course agree that he was not. I believed that Dumbledore was speaking an absolute honest to goodness truth when he told Snape off and manipulated him into submission, but LOL this is how he treats the man who looks suicidal even to Harry! So, point one definitely was not betrayed while at the same time felt it was the truth and well deserved truth, while at the same time felt that those words were better not said if he had any compassion for Snape. But the main reason why I was not betrayed by Dumbledore in that scene is because really, Dumbledore in that scene was no news or surprise for me. Now before anybody produces my posts where I argued against Dumbledore as puppet master theory in the past, I am not denying it, of course I did. But I will also easily produce past posts of mine and those were a plenty, where I argued my absolute disgust of many Dumbledore's actions. Dumbledore as epitome of goodness for me went out of the window, well, let's see, probably when he did not check on Harry during eleven years of him at Dursleys and did not make Dursleys to stop. Or maybe Dumbledore as epitome of goodness went flying for me when I learned that he made sure that Harry was taken away from the guardian named by his parents and when I learned how Dumbledore did not move a finger to check on Sirius' story and maybe help him. I mean, I was deluding myself too, that's for sure as to Dumbledore. But only in part, meaning that I always argued that Dumbledore did not manipulate people as much as many people argued, I always argued that he either honestly screwed up, when he made choices that I found despicable, or that he just let people made his own choices. I argued that, I never argued that all Dumbledore's choices were choices I would respect, quite the contrary. So, while I was definitely surprised by the extent of Dumbledore's manipulativeness or by his Grindelwald's past ( now that is something I could not think of in wildest dreams, bravo JKR), this scene did not show me any new Dumbledore. After all, Dumbledore who tells Snape you disgust me, right after woman he loved is dead, is the same Dumbledore who is telling fifteen year old whose Godfather **just died** that his godfather did not treat freaking house elf well. Is it a truth? Oh of course it is. If I were Harry, I would want to tell Dumbledore to shut up and never speak with him about Sirius ever again. But I always maintained that Harry is much more compassionate person than me. But the main point I am trying to make is that I saw no difference in Dumbledore in that scene. I saw for quite some time that he can behave that way. JMO, Alla From scarah at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 05:32:17 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 05:32:17 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184339 > Carol: > I'm not talking about helping the mothers of the world. I'm talking > about desperate fear for the life of someone you love. He's not > identifying with Lily or mothers. He's identifying with Narcissa, > whose fear for Draco exactly parallels his own for Lily. Sarah: OK, but that's not actually in the book. In the book, he stared into her eyes for a second then immediately agreed to take the Unbreakable Vow. Anything additional is fanfiction. We can speculate as to why this may have occurred the way that it did, but there is no one right answer at this time, since it isn't in the book. > Sarah: > No matter how he might empathize with Narcissa, *his* mission still > is what it is. If he fails to help Harry Potter carry out what he's > been set to do, he fails at life, basically. If he's dead, he > probably can't finish his mission. > > Carol: > Well, true. It's rather hard to finish your mission when you're dead. > But, still, he's binding himself to do what DD wants, and the price > for failure is still his life. Now the only way to avoid going through > it is to procrastinate long enough for DD to die of the curse--or to > let Draco kill DD, which would be to fail Dumbledore and tear Draco's > soul. Anyway, the vow makes his mission *binding*, symbolized by ropes > and chains of fire. Sarah: Yeah, so basically there's a lot of fanfare about something that isn't really a big deal. Snape is promising to do something that he already promised to do, that he has promised for a reason that's meaningful to *him.* Now he's being asked to do the exact same thing, for a reason that is meaningful to other people, and may provide side benefits to Snape. Of course he takes it. My only question was why he pretended not to know what they were asking him at first, if in fact that was the case. He won't change his mind about killing Dumbledore. So, the net effect here is about the same as if I said, "I promise not to forget to breathe tomorrow, on penalty of my death." In other words, no effect. > Sarah: > (I know Dumbledore still did, kind of, but Snape would have died in > much worse standing had he died of some Unbreakable Vow with the > Malfoys, or been taken out as a consequence of killing Dumbledore.) > > Carol: > I'm not sure what you mean here. Snape could have died fighting the > DEs, refusing to kill DD, and letting one of them kill him. He would > have died a hero, but he would also have failed Harry, Draco, and > Dumbledore. Or he could have done nothing, as he seemed in danger or > doing. It took him a long time to raise his wand. DD had to beg him > twice, and desperately. Sarah: Totally disagree with all of this, sorry. What I was referring to earlier was one of the good guys (Harry Potter for example) taking Snape out on his way out of the castle. Which clearly couldn't have happened, since Harry failed so miserably against Snape when he chased him out and they duelled. Yeah, Snape could have not killed Dumbledore, and waited to be killed by the Vow or his DE contemporaries, but he was never ever going to attempt that, anyway. Completely disagree that it took him a long time on the tower. He arrived, ascertained what was going on, was interrupted by Dumbledore, stepped to him, heard two more words from Dumbledore, and immediately blew him away and split. I see no hesitation. Carol: > I disagree. He tells DD, *after* he has made the vow, that DD takes > too much for granted and that maybe he doesn't want to do it any more. Sarah: I disagree again. Snape is in the process of complaining that Dumbledore doesn't give him enough information during that scene. He is bargaining. Of course he pulls out "Well I could just not kill you then" or anything else he can think of at that point. He is a subordinate bargaining with a superior, he is just threatening whatever he can think of. Carol: > And his hesitation on the tower, along with his expression of seeming > hatred (probably extreme anger at DD and self-loathing or revulsion at > what he has to do) Sarah: We've already been over this, but I don't believe there was any hesitation. Of course he was angry about it, who wouldn't be. > Sarah: > > He reckons everyone involved expects Draco to fail, and Snape to be > the one to kill Dumbledore, so the Vow won't kill Snape. And even if > Draco actually does manage to pull it off, Snape hasn't broken the > Vow, just his promise to Dumbledore. I think Snape is pretty > confident that he won't get taken out by someone like Harry Potter as > a side effect of killing Dumbledore, with good reason (see: their duel > afterwards). > > Carol: > I think you're missing the point, which is that Snape only reluctantly > agreed to kill Dumbledore and still, even after the vow, doesn't want > to do it. Sarah: Well, I suppose we are even since I think it is you who are missing the point. Which is that Snape agrees to things that are convenient for Snape. Which is why he agreed to the UV, because it was something he already planned on doing anyway. He was reluctant when he agreed to kill Dumbledore, *at first.* Then, like everything else in his life, he accepted it as a given, since it was ordered by Dumbledore. He was seen later trying to get out of it, but a) I don't think Snape is really that stupid that he actually believes that would be feasible and b) as I said earlier, Snape is attempting to leverage Dumbledore into something entirely unrelated, so he's just waving that around. > Sarah: > > He makes the Vow because it's promising the exact same thing to two > different parties. There's no additional danger involved on his part > by making it. It's a win-win situation. Unless he died, then > everyone involved would have some pretty bad repercussions. But Snape > is confident that won't happen, so no worries. > > Carol responds: > > No additional danger? Now he's committed to murder Dumbledore, which > he really doesn't want to do, or die from breaking the vow. It's quite > literally kill or be killed, whereas, before, it was only an agreement > with Dumbledore that he could choose to break and possibly come out > looking like a hero. Sarah: Do you really believe that Snape could undermine Dumbledore's orders and "come out looking like a hero?" I do not. Perhaps that contributes to the difference of opinion concerning this matter. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 15:10:35 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:10:35 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184340 Carol earlier: > > IMO, it has nothing to do with grief for Sirius at all. That's a red herring. We don't see excessive grief (which Harry suffers more than once, and Snape suffers before the books begin) affect anyone's powers. Only unrequited love (or a refusal to marry the girl you love > > for her own good, which amounts to the same thing) has that effect. > > (Unrequited love has altogether different but equally exaggerated> effects in Snape's case, but I don't want to go OT.) > > Sarah: > No argument with the hair thing being because of Tonks' feelings about > Lupin. It's obvious since it fixed itself by the time they were > sitting together at the funeral. > > I don't get what you're saying about Lupin, though. Did he ever lose > his powers? Carol responds: Sorry to be unclear. I meant that either Tonks's unrequited love for Lupin or Lupin's refusal to marry Tonks even though he loved her caused Tonks to lose some of her powers (specifically, her Metamorphmagus powers). I was trying to cover all the bases since we're not told how he feels. (I think that he did love her, just not as much or as obsessively as she loved him, but he could have knuckled under to peer pressure.) Anyway, I wasn't talking about Lupin losing his powers. I was comparing Tonks to Merope, a more extreme case of the same phenomenon or a similar one. I mentioned Snape, another person suffering from unrequited love as a counterexample. His holding on to love for Lily (and jealousy of James) for sixteen years is an extreme reaction to unrequited love compounded by unassuageable remorse, but he didn't lose his powers. (I hate to say it, but JKR seems to limit that reaction to Witches, not Wizards.) Sarah: > Actually, I'm not convinced Lupin was really ever all that into Tonks. He gave her a 'it's not you, it's me' speech, but it didn't work, and everyone was on his case about it, so he married her anyway. Then he wanted to leave her and go camping in a tent with Harry Potter for a year. Carol: That might be his way of dealing with guilt/remorse for the predicament he put her in. Maybe he thought that she was better off without his dangerous company (not only is he a werewolf who can't make his own Wolfbane potion--though maybe Tonks can, given that NEWT Potions is a requirement for Auror training--but the DEs are after both of them). He may even have had a death wish or thought that she'd better off if he were dead. At any rate, I agree with Harry that he belonged at home until there's an actual battle, and he seems happy enough after the baby is born. Obviously, we can't know for sure, but Tonks has to have some reason for her happiness after the battle in the DoM (even though her cousin died) and her depression a few weeks later. The only explanation I can come up with is that she thinks or knows that Lupin loves her (he's shown it in some way) after the battle, but he refuses to marry her when she brings up the subject. Sarah: > Tonks didn't seem to lose her powers either, apart from just the one. I figured it's the nature of Metamorphmagic, being innate and not learned and all. I thought it was just kind of a flighty, fluffy power that's first to waver. Carol: I agree that her other powers didn't suffer, but I'm not sure that Metamorphmagic is "a light, fluffy power." It's similar to becoming an Animagus, a very difficult skill to master, except that it's innate. Tonks can do more than change her hair color and the shape of her nose. We see her twice in OoP as completely different older women. I think the reason she loses that power in particular is that it expresses her personality and makes her different from everyone else. It may be connected with cheerfulness or happiness. Maybe she hasn't actually lost the power; she just doesn't feel like wearing her hair pink or purple when she's depressed. Sarah: > I also agree about something like a normal grieving process not making people lose their powers. From an evolutionary standpoint, wizards just wouldn't have survived this long if that was the case. Wizards are attacked, some die, the rest lose their powers and stand defenseless. It would never have worked out for them. Carol: Good point. Carol, wondering whether Tonks brewed Wolfbane Potion for Lupin during the short span of their marriage From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 17:14:01 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:14:01 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184341 Carol earlier: > > I think this is one of many instances of Hermione or another character being partially right. Clearly, Tonks' powers *have* been affected by "shock *or something.*" But Hermione suggests (psychoanalyzing a character she doesn't know particularly well somewhat less accurately,IMO, than she similarly analyzes Cho Chang and Sirius Black), that Tonks is suffering from survivor's guilt and somehow feels that it's her fault that Sirius died. That suggestion is a red herring (and a rather weak one since it isn't reinforced by any evidence). > > > > Alla: > Is it a red herring though? I am really not sure one way or another. > > I mean, there is no question in my mind that Tonks is affected by Lupin's love. But I mean, shock, isn't it a bit too strong? Carol responds: That's why I emphasized "or something." IOW, something that may or may not be shock caused her to lose her powers. And it can't have anything to do with Sirius because she shows up happy and pink-haired at King's Cross station several about two weeks after his death. (I didn't check the time frame, but it's the day that Harry returns to the Dursleys, presumably June 30.) Hermione is clearly wrong about the survivor's guilt, but right that shock "or something" has caused Tonks to lose that particular power. It doesn't occur to her that Tonks could be suffering because Lupin refuses to marry her. (Mrs. Weasley knows what's wrong with "dear Tonks," though!) Alla: What I am > trying to say is not that I am rejecting the idea for her being affected of her beloved death or wound or anything like that, but what exactly does she have to be in shock about Lupin at the beginning of HBP? She can be worried, yes, but shocked? Carol: I agree that it's not a shock. That's why I emphasized "or something." Personally, I'd call what she's suffering disappointment followed by depression. Other people may have different labels for it. As I said in another post, I think that being a Metamorphmagus is connected in her mind with happiness. It's rather like a brilliant, naturally talented violinist being either unwilling to play or actually losing her ability to play because the man she loves won't marry her. Alla: > > Well, yes, of course. Remember I am not rejecting her being worried > over Lupin, it is after all canon, what I am wondering is whether > survivor's guilt is here or not at all? Carol: I don't see any survivor's guilt at King's Cross, where she's her normal self. Surely, we would have seen it then if that's what she was feeling. Also, of course, it's in no way her fault that Sirius died and she didn't. (He's the one who recklessly fought Bellatrix on the dais with his back to the veil.) There's really no cause for survivor's guilt. Hermione seems to be snatching at straws. True, her eyes fill with tears when Harry mentions Sirius, but it's just coincidence. Her mind is on Lupin, fearing that he's been hurt. When Harry apologizes, thinking that she's mourning Sirius (he seems to have forgotten the survivor's guilt hypothesis), her reaction is "What?" and a blank look as if she hadn't heard him (HBP Am. ed. 466). Alla: > Because it seems to me that Hermione hints that Tonks has same thing as Harry has, and if Tonks does not have that, it sort of makes no sense to me as relates to Harry's story. > > Because if the point here is to say that Hermione is wrong, well, then it is as if those words have no meaning for Harry either IMO. Carol: I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Harry's survivor's guilt has been shifted to Snape, or rather, he's placed the blame for Sirius Black's death on Snape. I don't think we see him suffering from survivor's guilt in HBP except briefly when he and DD return to Hogwarts from the cave and he sees the Dark Mark. At that point he thinks that it will be his fault, again, if any of his friends has died. But he never really accepts that explanation for Tonks's behavior. When Hermione suggests that Tonks thinks it's her fault that Sirius died, Harry says in spite of his own reluctance to talk about Sirius, "How does she work that one out?" He also says in response to Hermione's remark that Tonks's magical powers must have been affected by "shock, or something" that he didn't know that could happen. Hermione mentions depression, which I think is nearer the mark, but the conversation is cut off (95). > Carol earlier: > > Someone (Hermione?) points out that Tonks didn't know Sirius all that well. He was some fifteen years older than she was, closer to Andromeda's age than Nymphadora's, and he was in prison for twelve years when she was a child and adolescent, and in hiding for two years after that (PoA and GoF). She may have seen him occasionally when she was a small child, but she essentially met him for the first time when she joined the Order between the end of GoF and the beginning of PoA. She would have met Lupin at the same time, but it was the kindly, low-key werewolf and not the rash and sometimes surly ex-prisoner that she fell in love with. > > > Alla: > > In my mind, the amount of time they knew each other (Tonks and Sirius) is more than enough to be upset about the death of family member. But that's not the only thing Hermione suggests, is it not? Carol: Actually, it's Ron who points out that they didn't know each other very well. My mistake. Sorry. I'm sure she was sad about Sirius's death, but he wouldn't seem like a cousin to her given the age difference and I don't think her grief was profound or lasting. If she had been depressed in the last chapter of OoP and continued to be depressed in HBP, I'd think that Sirius had something to do with it. Tonks is her normal self at the end of OoP, after Sirius's death: "Tonks stood just behind [Mad-eye], her bright bubble-gum pink hair gleaming in the sunlight filtering through the . . . ceiling, wearing heavily patched jeans and a bright purple T-shirt bearing the legend THE WEIRD SISTERS" (OoP Am. ed. 867). She takes part in the conversation with the Dursleys, hinting at what will happen if the Order finds out that the Dursleys have beeen horrible to Harry (869). Interestingly, Lupin, who is standing next to her (867), immediately backs her up (869). This cheerful, in-character, brightly dressed self is in marked contrast to the mouse-haired, mopey Tonks at the beginning of HBP, which takes place only about two weeks later. The Tonks sitting at Mrs. Weasley's table has a pale face and mousy brown hair. Harry thinks she looks ill (HBP 82). Even Ron comments that she looks like Moaning Myrtle (94). Sirius's death did not change her appearance or behavior, as indicated by that scene at King's Cross, but something has happened between the confrontation with the Dursleys and Harry's return to the Weasleys' at the beginning of HBP to cause that change in her. That it relates to Lupin follows from Mrs. Weasley's dinner invitation to Tonks, in which she mentions Lupin(82). Tonks thanks Mrs. Weasley for the "tea and sympathy," which indicates that she's been sharing her disappointment with Mrs. Weasley, who in turn gives Lupin an annoyed glance when she mentions that Tonks is planning to have Christmas dinner alone (340). We're given plenty of hints along with the red herrings, as usual for any mystery in the books, but the hints only become clear after we've read the explanation in the hospital-wing chapter. (BTW, Ginny provides another red herring--she thinks that Mrs. W. keeps inviting Tonks to dinner in hopes that Bill will fall for Tonks (94), which explains Harry's reaction to Mrs. W's annoyed glance at Lupin.) And Lupin is put on the spot when Harry asks about Tonks's changed Patronus. He takes his time chewing his food before saying lamely, "Sometimes . . . a great shock . . . an emotional upheaval . . ." (340). His feeble and incomplete explanation paves the way for Snape's doe Patronus in HBP, but makes it look as if the "emotional upheaval" is caused by Sirius's death. Harry follows up by describing the changed Patronus (big with four legs) and starts to ask whether it could be Padfoot, but is cut off (naturally!) before he can ask the question by Percy's arrival with Scrimgeour. The changed Patronus, noted by Snape on the first day of school, is our first real clue to the cause of Tonks's malady, but we don't learn till much later what Mrs. Weasley and Snape (of all people) have already figured out. It's not survivor's guilt or mourning for Sirius; it's Lupin's rejection (or, alternatively, his refusal to do what they both want because he thinks it would be wrong to subject her to the burden of marriage to him). Alla: > She is talking about survivor's guilt and you can have it about the > person you are unrelated to, especially if she feels that as law > enforcement member, she failed to save somebody. She did not fail of > course, but it is just sounds very plausible and logical to me. Carol responds: Tonks isn't talking about survivor's guilt. That's just Hermione's guess as to what's wrong. We don't hear Tonks talking about it. We just know that she's mopey and depressed; she's apparently lost or simply isn't using her Metamorphmagus powers; her Patronus has changed; she thanks Molly for the tea and sympathy (an odd remark if she's been talking to Molly about survivor's guilt); she refuses invitations to dinner at the Weasleys' when she knows that Lupin will be there; and she's desperately worried about Lupin's safety. We get the explanation for everything in the hospital-wing scene. Alla: > And you said it yourself; she met Lupin as an adult at the same time. She fell in love with him yes, but again ? what shock? Carol: No shock, just disappointment and depression. Her Patronus changes for the same reason that she (apparently) loses her Metamorphmagus powers. Of course, if there *is* a shock, it could be Lupin's rejection of her marriage proposal! But Hermione says, "a shock, or something" and Lupin says a shock or emotional upheaval, so maybe shock, per se, isn't necessary. Hermione, BTW, is not giving information she found in a book. She's hypothesizing. "I didn't know that could happen," says Harry with regard to the lost powers. "Nor did I," Hermione responds. "But I suppose if you're really depressed. . ." (95). Hermione says that Lupin has "tried to talk [Tonks] round," but that only indicates that Hermione has seen Lupin talking to Tonks and apparently trying to comfort her not that Tonks herself has been talking about survivor's guilt, a hypothesis that is never supported, and which is belied by Tonks' cheerful, normal appearance and behavior at King's Cross. Carol, who thinks that Tonks' hair and Patronus are just another mystery, misinterpreted by HRH, just as they misinterpreted Snape's and Quirrell's behavior in SS/PS From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 18:32:30 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:32:30 -0000 Subject: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184342 Alla wrote: > > Okay, before I go any further may I just say how dismissively I look at Malfoy in this book now. > > When I read it before DH I always used to worry about Malfoy seriously harming Harry and Co, I never dismissed him as their enemy, etc and I still do so in the earlier books, but in this one? Carol responds: I don't remember whether I ever saw Draco as a serious threat to Harry, but my reaction to this chapter was different. I thought that Draco was getting his promised revenge on Harry ("That's for my father!") and then moving on to what he thought were bigger things. Harry is small potatoes now. He's going after Dumbledore. (Of course, I didn't know for sure what Draco's mission was, but clearly it was something dark and dangerous assigned to him by Voldemort.) The change from the earlier books, where he's mostly relying on his father's power and authority (or on this thuggish escorts) to back up his threats, is already marked at the end of OoP, where he's vowing revenge and seems to mean it. He has real cause for anger this time: his idolized father is in Azkaban thanks in part to Harry. Perhaps he's already planning to join the DEs, but he's still focused at that point on Harry and his threats are still empty. At the beginning of HBP, he's either a DE or a prospective DE (I think he has the Dark Mark; Harry's hypothesis is never disproved and Draco seems to have LV's permission to use Fenrir Greyback to threaten Borgin). At any rate, it's clear from his bragging to his fellow Slytherins that he now sees himself as important. In my view, he resembles the boy Rolf in "Sound of Music" (except that he was never nice): becoming a Nazi/Death Eater has gone to his head. Alla: > All that I am thinking now even when he boasts to his Slytherinsbreaks Harry's nose is something like that - you silly little boy, who cannot make one good decision without getting in the whole lot of trouble, just go away and wait till you will be forced to kill your Headmaster. Then maybe your head will clear up somewhat. Carol: I didn't react that way at all. I just felt that his mother was right; he was in over his head and didn't know it. He's overconfident at this point (a natural and realistic reaction for a sixteen-year-old given a man's job, even if that job is to assassinate a great Wizard), and he thinks that Harry Potter is barely worth his notice (though he certainly feels satisfaction at seeing Harry helplessly bound in an absurd position by his freezing charm and in stamping on his nose and hand, not to mention re-covering him with the Invisibility Cloak and leaving him on the train to be forgotten and returned to King's Cross. But it's as if he puts that little business behind him to concentrate on doing the Dark Lord's will. He has a plan; he has DE back-up. All he has to do, he thinks, is fix the Vanishing Cabinet, following Borgin's instructions, bring in the DEs, kill dumbledore, and voile! He'll be "rewarded beyond all others. Heck, he'll even outperform Professor Snape and get his father out of Azkaban. It'll take him no more than a few weeks at worst. Anyway, his arrogance is short-lived. By Christmas, he's becoming desperate. He may even realize at that point that LV expected him to fail. He certainly knows that his family, including himself, is in danger. Knowing what's coming, I feel more pity than contempt for him. I'm not sure how I felt on a first reading, but I think I thought he was heading for a fall even then. (Sad, isn't it, that we can't recapture that first reaction?) Alla quoting: > "Hmph," snorted Professor Mcgonagall. "It's high time your grandmother learned to be proud of the grandson she's got, rather than the one she thinks she ought to have - particularly after what happened at the Ministry" p.174 > > Alla: > > That is why I love Minerva, because I want to believe that despite her being an *sshole to Neville several times, I believe that she learned to appreciate him as well. Carol: Setting aside McGonagall, with whom I'm not pleased because of DH, I think that Neville's gran was already proud of him. She brags about him in one of the articles that the narrator quotes from while Harry is sleeping in Chapter 3, and instead of "killing" Neville because he broke his father's wand, she bought him a new one (the last one sold by Ollivander before the DEs kidnapped him). And, of course, we see the best side of her in DH. She's always loved Neville, IMO; she just didn't know how to show it (and she must also have genuinely thought that he lacked his father's talent considering how long it took to show that he wasn't a Squib). Both McGonagall and Augusta Longbottom have a no-nonsense, tough-love approach. Whether McG sees the similarity or not, I don't know. (BTW, I find it hard to believe that a formidable and talented witch like Augusta Longbottom failed her Charms OWL. She certainly has no trouble with DADA.) > Alla: > > Funny, Snape indeed does not do demonstration of Unforgivables. Carol: Maybe he thinks that the NEWT DADA students don't need to see those spells demonstrated since they all saw them in Fake!Moody's class. Or maybe he's afraid that casting them will tempt him back to the DArk side, especially controlling the students with the Imperius Curse as Fake!Moody did. Maybe he's sworn off using them because he associates them with the DEs and Voldemort; his job now is to teach Defense against the Dark Arts, not the Dark Arts themselves. Maybe DD asked him not to use them or maybe the Ministry won't grant him permission given his background. Any other ideas (or arguments supporting one of these possibilities over the others)? I personally never thought that the demonstration of the Unforgiveables was necessary even before I knew that "Moody" wasn't Moody. Setting aside the temptation to control the students (and cruelty to spiders), the curses are illegal. It's like saying, "I'm the teacher, so I'm above the law." (Reminds me of Nixon: "When the President does it, that means it's not illegal"!) Anyway, I think that Snape's moving poster of a person writhing in pain conveyed the idea of the Cruciatus sufficiently. As for an AK, a person lying dead with a surprised expression and no hex mark would suffice. Carol, suspecting that Snape himself decided not to demonstrate the Unforgiveable Curses primarily because Draco was in the class From lealess at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 20:06:09 2008 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:06:09 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184343 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tommy_m_riddle" wrote: > > > > > Carol: > > I think you're missing the point, which is that Snape only > > reluctantly agreed to kill Dumbledore and still, even after the > > vow, doesn't want to do it. > > Sarah: > Well, I suppose we are even since I think it is you who are missing > the point. Which is that Snape agrees to things that are convenient > for Snape. Which is why he agreed to the UV, because it was > something he already planned on doing anyway. He was reluctant when > he agreed to kill Dumbledore, *at first.* Then, like everything else > in his life, he accepted it as a given, since it was ordered by > Dumbledore. He was seen later trying to get out of it, but a) I don't > think Snape is really that stupid that he actually believes that > would be feasible and b) as I said earlier, Snape is attempting to > leverage Dumbledore into something entirely unrelated, so he's just > waving that around. > I am interested in Harry Potter's last scenes with Dumbledore in HBP. One minute, he is in Dumbledore's office, angry at the Headmaster for keeping from him the information that Snape was the one who revealed the Prophecy to Voldemort. He wants something from Dumbledore, though -- the chance to be in on the action. So, Dumbledore shuts him down, reminds him that they were accomplishing a task under Dumbledore's lead, and secures his promise to do whatever is asked of him. Then they go to the cave. Harry feeds the contents of the basin to Dumbledore knowing the potion is causing Dumbledore intense harm. Harry doesn't hesitate to do this. It's fair to say that Harry has very little information about what's going on. He makes matters worse by giving a thirsty Dumbledore the water surrounding them. Inferi advance on them. Harry freaks, and Dumbledore has to take command of the situation. Harry is left to take action to bring the situation to what he hopes will be a safe conclusion. (Sorry if any of this is misremembered, and thanks for any corrections.) To me, this is a mirror of the situation with Snape, although played out in a much shorter timeframe. Dumbledore secures a promise from someone who is angry at that moment about the truth being withheld from him. Dumbledore defuses the anger, then asks his subordinate to put Dumbledore's life in danger for Dumbledore's concept of the greater good. The subordinate does all in his power to follow through with Dumbledore's plan, disregarding any other sources of help, even taking extraneous action which he thinks will be helpful (the UV, the water) to fulfill Dumbledore's mission. Dumbledore has to step in at the end to reinforce his will and protect his subordinate. The subordinates, both Harry and Severus, are left to deal with the consequences and their consciences. Neither, by the way, seems very guilty or even reflective over their actions. We see little of Severus, of course, but we see plenty of Harry. I don't recall him ceasing to feed the potion to Dumbledore in the cave or worrying about it afterwards, or wondering about the effects of giving Dumbledore the cave water, or chastising himself over failing to destroy the Inferi. He did as he was told and even went beyond that on his own initiative. Does this make Harry cold and calculating and self-interested? Harry is younger and thus presumably more innocent than Snape -- and yet, he took actions that inadvertently led to the death of someone he loved. He found relief in hating and blaming others. Snape, failing someone he loved, hated and blamed himself, and became Dumbledore's. I don't see Harry as being innately better than Snape at the end of Dumbledore's life. The only difference is that Dumbledore loved Harry and did not love Severus, callously expecting Severus to kill him while mercifully withholding from Harry information on the potion/water's effects, which Harry could see in any event. Why did Snape take the UV? Perhaps he felt as if he had nothing left to lose and saw it as a way out. Perhaps he wanted to protect Draco. Perhaps he thought taking the Vow cost him nothing, *if* he thought killing Dumbledore was going to cost him nothing. I doubt the latter, however, because killing Dumbledore caused him great pain, as seen in Dumbledore's office when he all but begged Dumbledore to confirm his worth by asking about the value of his soul, and as seen in the light of Hagrid's burning hut. I see Snape as a vulnerable, conflicted, isolated, and ultimately tragic human being. It seems others still see him as a conniving, cold-hearted, self-interested (yet impotent and resigned!) Slytherin. I would love to know what leads us to these different conclusions. lealess From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 20:48:15 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:48:15 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184344 Carol earlier: > > I'm not talking about helping the mothers of the world. I'm talking about desperate fear for the life of someone you love. He's not identifying with Lily or mothers. He's identifying with Narcissa, whose fear for Draco exactly parallels his own for Lily. > > Sarah: > OK, but that's not actually in the book. In the book, he stared into her eyes for a second then immediately agreed to take the Unbreakable Vow. We can speculate as to why this may have occurred the way that it did, but there is no one right answer at this time, since it isn't in the book. Carol: I agree that his empathy with Narcissa isn't in the book, but his being in a parallel situation, knowing how it feels when someone you love is in desperate danger from Voldemort is (in DH, not "Spinner's End," I admit). What's in in the actual chapter is that he looks into her tear-filled eyes and that her whole reason for coming to him is her concern for Draco. What's also in the book (HBP, actually) is that Snape sees what's uppermost in the mind of the person whose eyes he's looking into. In Harry's case, it's the HBP's Potions book. I don't think it's speculating all that much to suspect that what Snape saw in Narcissa's eyes was Draco's death, which is certainly uppermost in her mind. LV, we discover in DH, actually enters a person's mind, almost as if he's possessing them, and walks around in the person's thoughts as if they were a Pensieve. (See his Legilimency on Gregorovitch in DH.) Snape's much less invasive Legilimency doesn't work that way, as the Sectumsempra chapter demonstrates. Certainly, you're free to think that he didn't know what Draco's mission was until he looked into her eyes. Unfortunately, that's contrary to canon. He tells her that he knows what it is, and he also tells dumbledore, who could not have found it out without his one and only DE spy, Snape. Maybe we should agree to disagree on this point. > Sarah: > Yeah, so basically there's a lot of fanfare about something that isn't really a big deal. Snape is promising to do something that he already promised to do, that he has promised for a reason that's meaningful to *him.* Carol: I disagree completely. There's a lot of fanfare because an Unbreakable Vow is exactly that, a binding magical contract that can result in death. I think it *is* a big deal because it robs Snape of the opportunity to back out. He has to keep his promise or die. Certainly, he already intended to do all those things, but he could fail or he could change his mind with no dire consequences for himself. Now it's his death or Dumbledore's with no way out unless DD dies from the ring curse before Draco can get near him. And if any harm comes to Draco because Snape failed to watch over and protect him "to the best of his ability," Snape is dead, too. People make and break vows all the time. Just look at wedding vows. There's all the difference in the world between "till death do us part" when it's just a line in a ceremony that can be dishonored by a divorce or an affair and instant death if the wedding vow is broken. And, as I said before, there's ample evidence, including Snape's facial expression when he kills DD and "Don't call me coward!" (meaning "You don't know how much this has cost me or what danger I'm still in because of you!") that Snape didn't want this burden. ("What about my soul, Dumbledore?" "You take too much for granted, Dumbledore. Maybe I don't want to do it any more!" That's canon.) Sarah: > Now he's being asked to do the exact same thing, for a reason that is meaningful to other people, and may provide side benefits to Snape. Of course he takes it. Carol: Side benefits like convincing Bella that he's loyal to Bellatrix and keeping Narcissa from doing somehting desperate, do you mean? I agree that those are considerations, but they hardly outweight the certainty of death if he fails. I suppose that this is another point on which we disagree. Notice his hesitation and blank expression before he agrees to the Unbreakable Vow. I think he waits to know what she's asking. (He's probably thinking something like, "Watch over and protect Draco? Sure, I'll swear to do that.") Then she throws doing "the deed" if Draco seems about to fail into the mix. He hesitates. His hand twitches. But he agrees. (What choice does he have, on his knees and bound to Narcissa with ropes of fire, with Bellatrix standing over him with a wand? Yes, there are the side benefits. Yes, he's already promised DD to do it, and LV probably expects him to do it as well. Nevertheless, he really doesn't want to do it. Killing Dumbledore will drive him from his job, not to mention his position as double agent and trusted member of the Order. It will send him right into Voldemort's arms, forcing him to look like a villain and a traitor. It may well split his soul. And now, with the Unbreakable Vow, the only way out of that vow, if Draco and DD come face to face, is his own death. Sarah: My only question was why he pretended not to know what they were asking him at first, if in fact that was the case. Carol: I'm not sure what you mean here. Narcissa didn't come to him hoping to make an Unbreakable Vow. That requires a third person, and Bellatrix followed Narcissa without invitation. If you mean asking what he can do for them, that's only polite. And certainly, he wants to answer Bellatrix's objections before talking to Narcissa. He also has to be careful at first because Wormtail is in the room. Moreover, they've all been told not to talk about Draco's assignment with anyone, so of course he wants them to speak first. He's a spy (double agent). One false move, especially in front of Bellatrix, can cost his life. Telling Narcissa that she shouldn't speak of it if LV has told her not to is also self-protection. It makes him appear to be loyal (and fits with the answers he's just given Bellatrix). He wants Narcissa to go first, but quite possibly he's not ready to help her openly (though of course he already intends to watch over and protect Draco). He turns to the window, possibly to give himself time to think, and then informs them that he knows of the plan. The reader doesn't know at that point whether he's bluffing; we find out later that he isn't. And then he asks her what help she requires, making it quite clear that he's not stupid enough to try to talk the Dark Lord out of it. He looks away several times. He reminds her sternly that the Dark Lord is displeased with Lucius, which confirms Narcissa's fears that LV is taking revenge on Lucius through Draco. He says quietly that he might be able to help Draco; he does not say how. Narcissa suggests the Unbreakable Vow, expressing it in terms that Snape can hardly refuse (protecting Draco and seeing that he comes to no harm). Still, he hesitates and his expression is unreadable. The Unbreakable Vow is a dangerous thing, quite possibly Dark Magic, and if he breaks it, he will die. It's not a risk to be taken lightly. IMO, it's a calculated risk. Maybe all she will ask is that he protect Draco, as he already intends to do. Maybe, if she asks him to take on the task himself, the moment of truth will never come. Maybe the confrontation can be put off indefinitely until DD dies from the ring curse. And if it does come down to killing DD or dying from the broken vow, at least he'll be doing what Dumbledore wants and helping to bring about the fall of LV. But that he still doesn't want to do it is evident from the hand, which doesn't twitch on the first to provisions, only on the last, doing that hateful deed to save Draco's soul and give DD the death he requested, in part so that Snape can become LV's most trusted man. it's a horrible future that DD has outlined for him, but he has promised to do "anything" that DD asks of him, and he wants LV destroyed as much as Dumbledore does though for different reasons. At any rate, I disagree that it was an easy choice or that it made no difference. Again, maybe we should agree to disagree as we're evidently not going to convince each other. Sarah: > He won't change his mind about killing Dumbledore. So, the net effect here is about the same as if I said, "I promise not to forget to breathe tomorrow, on penalty of my death." In other words, no effect. Carol: Won't he? ("You take a great deal for granted, Dumbledore! Perhaps I have changed my mind!" He looks "mutinous" as he speaks these words. (DH Am. ed. 685). He knows that he's taken that vow, but he's clearly considering death rather than carrying it out. No effect? Just death (and thwarting DD's plans). No big deal. Sorry. I don't think so. Carol earlier: Snape could have died fighting the DEs, refusing to kill DD, and letting one of them kill him. He would have died a hero, but he would also have failed Harry, Draco, and Dumbledore. Or he could have done nothing, as he seemed in danger or doing. It took him a long time to raise his wand. DD had to beg him twice, and desperately. > > Sarah: > Totally disagree with all of this, sorry. Carol: You don't think that he would have died a hero, even in Harry's eyes, if he'd chosen to fight the DEs rather than kill Dumbledore? That's pretty much what DDM!Snapers expected him to do. It looks as if we totally disagree on every point. Sorry. :-) Sarah: > What I was referring to earlier was one of the good guys (Harry Potter for example) taking Snape out on his way out of the castle. Which clearly couldn't have happened, since Harry failed so miserably against Snape when he chased him out and they duelled. Carol: At last, a point we agree on. Snape's parrying Harry's curses, even Crucio, so easily is one of my favorite moments in the book. (And I'm quite sure he could have killed McGonagall and Flitwick together in DH if he'd wanted to. But I don't see how any of this relates to the Unbreakable Vow. Sarah: > Yeah, Snape could have not killed Dumbledore, and waited to be killed by the Vow or his DE contemporaries, but he was never ever going to attempt that, anyway. Carol: You don't know that. I've already given evidence that he didn't want to do it. There's also the initial conversation in "The Prince's Tale." The only arguments that persuade him are saving Draco's soul and preventing DD from being tortured by someone like Bellatrix or torn apart by Fenrir Greyback. But at that point, he can still get out of it, particularly if DD is in no imminent danger of death by anything other than an AK. Letting another DE AK DD would serve both those purposes. The only thing it wouldn't do (besides robbing the Elder Wand of its power, which Snape doesn't know about) is prevent Snape from taking his place as LV's most trusted DE, which will enable Snape to protect the students and help Harry. Sarah: > Completely disagree that it took him a long time on the tower. He arrived, ascertained what was going on, was interrupted by Dumbledore, stepped to him, heard two more words from Dumbledore, and immediately blew him away and split. I see no hesitation. Carol: Perhaps it will help to reread the scene. Snape arrives and surveys the scene as you say. (I suspect that he noted the two brooms and knew that Harry was there in his Invisibility Cloak, though the narrator doesn't mention that.) Amycus informs him that they have a problem. DD softly speaks Snape's first name. Harry notes a pleading note in his voice. But note what happens next. Snape does not immediately raise his wand and blow DD away. Instead, "Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way. the three Death Eaters fell back without a word. Even the werewolf seemed cowed. "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. "'Severus. . .please. . . .' "Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at Dumbledore. 'Avada Kedavra!' Note that Snape does not come in with his wand raised (contrast his rushing out of his office during the Occlumency lesson in OoP when he hears Trelawney scream). Nor does he raise it immediately after he has ascertained the situation and pushed Draco out of the way. DD pleads with him. He does not raise his wand. Instead, he looks into DD's eyes and an expression of (self?) hatred and revulsion passes over his face, reminding many readers of the self-hatred and revulsion (repulsion) that Harry felt in the cave when he was force-feeding DD that horrible potion. Even then, DD has to beg him again, "Severus, please!" before he raises his wand and does "the deed." DD's desperation can only be accounted for by his belief that Snape may back out, may allow himself to die from the vow rather than do the detested deed that will cost him everything--job, Order membership, the trust of his former colleagues--and turn him into a seemingly loyal DE. There is no turning back. Once he's done the deed, I agree that he's in a hurry to get Draco and the DEs off the tower and out of Hogwarts. He also, IMO, wants to get the DEs away from Harry, who will certainly try to fight them and be killed. And also, IMO, he deliberately sent DD's body over the ramparts so that Fenrir Greyback couldn't ravage it. (DD had expressed particular aversion to being attacked by Greyback; Snape protects his body from Greyback and at the same time leaves no reason for the DEs to remain on the tower. He's still pledged to protect Draco and he's promised DD to protect the students. That duty starts now. Of course, he has to "split" at that point. It's the only way to get the DEs out of Hogwarts, telling them that they've done what they came to do. Later, he stops a DE (Amycus?) from Crucioing Harry, saying that he's for the Dark Lord and they need to get out before the Aurors come. And he makes sure that Draco gets safely out before he deals with Harry, trying to the last to teach him what he needs to know and at the same time maintain his cover. And again we see a tormented expression on his face as Harry says, "Kill me like you killed him!" In context, it seems to refer to James, but it makes more sense if it refers to Dumbledore. Against his will, he has killed his own mentor, and the torment on his face reflects his own private hell. (It can't reflect physical pain; he's unhurt.) > > Carol: > > I disagree. He tells DD, *after* he has made the vow, that DD takes too much for granted and that maybe he doesn't want to do it any more. > > Sarah: > I disagree again. Carol: Sigh. We're playing ping pong here. I don't see how you can disagree with a fictional fact, in any case. Here's the timing. Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow in "Spinner's End" in mid-July. He tells DD that he (DD) takes too much for granted at the end of the following February, a night or two before Ron's birthday, March 1. You can't disagree with a fact. Sarah: > Snape is in the process of complaining that Dumbledore doesn't give him enough information during that scene. He is bargaining. Of course he pulls out "Well I could just not kill you then" or anything else he can think of at that point. He is a subordinate bargaining with a superior, he is just threatening whatever he can think of. Carol: That's your interpretation. It's not mine. I think his initial hesitation, the hand twitch, the mutinous "maybe I've changed my mind," the look of hatred and revulsion on his face as he looks into DD's eyes on the tower (if he's using Legilimency on Narcissa in "Spinner's End" surely he's using it on his fellow Legilimens, DD, who is begging him to get on with it and is probably willing him to see what's on his mind, as Harry did in OoP); the agony on his face as Harry calls him a coward; all that adds up to unwillingness to do the deed. Can you show me counterevidence that he's glad to do it? > > Carol: > > And his hesitation on the tower, along with his expression of seeming hatred (probably extreme anger at DD and self-loathing or revulsion at what he has to do) > > Sarah: > We've already been over this, but I don't believe there was any hesitation. Of course he was angry about it, who wouldn't be. Carol: I've just shown you that he did hesitate. He looks around, pushes Draco out of the way, does not raise his wand. DD speaks his name. He looks into DD's eyes, his expression changes to one of hatred and revulsion. Still, he does not raise his wand. DD begs him again, "Severus, please!" And, finally, in the nick of time if DD's desperation is any indication, he does the deed. Incidentally, how do you account for his expression if it's not revulsion at the deed he has to perform and either self-hatred like Harry's in the cave or fierce anger at DD for placing him in this position? And you say "of course he's angry about it," but you also imply that it's no big deal; he'd have done it anyway. That seems contradictory to me. > > Carol: > > I think you're missing the point, which is that Snape only reluctantly agreed to kill Dumbledore and still, even after the vow, doesn't want to do it. > > Sarah: > Well, I suppose we are even since I think it is you who are missing the point. Which is that Snape agrees to things that are convenient for Snape. Carol: Placing himself in the position of kill or be killed is convenient for Snape? And possibly you're forgetting, "I've lied for you, spied for you, risked my life for you." Convenient for Snape? I don't think so. Convenient for Dumbledore, certainly. Sarah: Which is why he agreed to the UV, because it was something he already planned on doing anyway. He was reluctant when he agreed to kill Dumbledore, *at first.* Then, like everything else in his life, he accepted it as a given, since it was ordered by Dumbledore. Carol: Which is not exactly the same as his own convenience or wanting to do it. Sarah: > He was seen later trying to get out of it, but a) I don't think Snape is really that stupid that he actually believes that would be feasible and b) as I said earlier, Snape is attempting to leverage Dumbledore into something entirely unrelated, so he's just waving that around. Carol: That's your opinion, but I don't see any support for it. I agree that Snape isn't stupid, far from it, but even with the UV there is a way out of killing Dumbledore, keeping Draco from getting near DD, which Snape knows he won't do without backup, until the curse kills DD. (Snape, as I said before, does not know that Draco has succeeded in bringing DEs into Hogwarts; the moment he had, IMO, hoped to avoid comes on him without warning.) Even the Elder Wand problem, which Snape doesn't know about, would have been solved that way, with the wand having no master and losing its power. The only thing that wouldn't happen would be Snape's gaining LV's trust (or what passes for trust) by killing DD. And if all else fails, Snape could let the UV kill him, which he seems on the verge of doing, or at least in danger of doing, when the time comes to carry out the vow. > Sarah: > Do you really believe that Snape could undermine Dumbledore's orders and "come out looking like a hero?" I do not. Perhaps that contributes to the difference of opinion concerning this matter. Carol: Wouldn't he look like a hero if he protected Dumbledore from the other DEs and died fighting them, just as Sirius Black died protecting Harry? Harry would think so, if he lived to tell the tale. No one except Snape and DD knows about Dumbledore's plans, including Harry. So instead of fighting the DEs (or just letting the vow kill him, which would save him from being a murderer but accomplish nothing since it wouldn't save DD and would leave Harry, Draco, and Hogwarts unprotected), he looks like a villain--as the result of *obeying* DD's orders. You know, I think we just disagree so profoundly about the dangers of the UV and about Snape's motives that there's no point continuing the discussion--unless you want to present evidence to counter mine. I don't see any evidence to support your point of view, though I may have missed it. Carol, with apologies to fellow posters for the ping pong match From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 21:21:25 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:21:25 -0000 Subject: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184345 > Alla: > > > > > Funny, Snape indeed does not do demonstration of Unforgivables. > > Carol: Alla: Yes, those are all good and plausible reasons. Except I was not saying that it was a bad thing, wasn't I? I just said that it was funny. I was thinking that this could have been one of the clues about Snape's loyalties, same as the fact that Fake! Moody did not hesitate to show them to kids could have been one of the clues about his real loyalties. I mean, we are not even talking about using them in the battle, it is in the classroom. So, um, it was a compliment to Snape, which I do not make, well almost ever. No defense of him was needed, lol. Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Sep 16 00:47:00 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:47:00 -0000 Subject: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184346 > > Alla: > > > > > > > > Funny, Snape indeed does not do demonstration of Unforgivables. > > Alla: snip > > I just said that it was funny. I was thinking that this could have > been > one of the clues about Snape's loyalties, same as the fact that Fake! > Moody did not hesitate to show them to kids could have been one of > the clues about his real loyalties. I mean, we are not even > talking about using them in the battle, it is in the classroom. > > So, um, it was a compliment to Snape, which I do not make, well > almost ever. No defense of him was needed, lol. > > Alla Potioncat: LOL, the fact that you said, "It was funny" made me think you thought it was odd or unimportant. Here you were complimenting Snape! That reminds me of "For a first attempt that wasn't as poor as it might have been." ;-) I thought it was very meaningful that Snape didn't use Unforgivables as he fled Hogwarts in HBP, and that he prevented Harry from doing them. It seemed to me that Snape had a genuine aversion to the Unforgivables. Ithink he is also very interested in teaching 'Defense of' rather than 'Dark Arts'. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 02:08:34 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 02:08:34 -0000 Subject: Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184347 > Potioncat: > LOL, the fact that you said, "It was funny" made me think you thought > it was odd or unimportant. Here you were complimenting Snape! That > reminds me of "For a first attempt that wasn't as poor as it might > have been." ;-) > Alla: Hey! It is me, remember? Me **paying compliment to Snape**. I think I deserve an A plus for effort. Heee, I just had an idea for the thread, and let's see how well it will go. Pay a sincere, canon based compliment to the character you dislike and explain why. As many compliments as you can manage with explanations and only to the character or characters you dislike, characters you like will not do. Okay, let me try real hard to manage another one for Snape. He is talented researcher and inventor of the spells, potions, etc. I mean, really talented, those spells and improved potions directions were really cool. Alla From scarah at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 02:44:37 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 02:44:37 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184348 (Apologies for any circularity/redundancy, I tried to snip a bunch for that reason but it may not be perfect.) > Carol: > Snape sees what's uppermost in the mind of the person whose eyes he's > looking into. In Harry's case, it's the HBP's Potions book. Sarah: It is true that it worked like that on that occasion. Other times, he just saw random things like getting chased by dogs and making out with Cho. Sarah: > Certainly, you're free to think > that he didn't know what Draco's mission was until he looked into her > eyes. Unfortunately, that's contrary to canon. Sarah: Agreed. It has been my position ever since I first posted in this topic, and still is, that prior to the publication of DH I believed that Snape found out Draco's mission at that moment. I no longer believe this, thanks to DH. All I'm saying is that it seemed to be getting set up that way, and would make more sense to me if it had been. Which it wasn't. I thought X, but X was clearly jossed, so instead it is Y, which in my opinion makes less sense than X, but it is what it is. Carol: > He tells her that he > knows what it is, and he also tells dumbledore, who could not have > found it out without his one and only DE spy, Snape. Maybe we should > agree to disagree on this point. Sarah: No, we agree perfectly fine. DH was published, and in it, Snape talked to Dumbledore about what Draco's mission was before the Black sisters came to his house. We could have agreed to disagree plenty back before DH came out, but in this case I think we must agree to agree. Before DH, Snape did tell the Black sisters he knew what the mission was, but I think everything he says in that chapter (or basically, ever) must be questioned, which I did up until I saw that he talked to Dumbledore about it first. > Carol: I disagree completely. There's a lot of fanfare because an > Unbreakable Vow is exactly that, a binding magical contract that can > result in death. Sarah: Yeah, but so are sporting tournaments for the seventeen year old set, and apparently, prosthetic limbs. Or maybe the life debt, but that is a different discussion. Carol: > I think it *is* a big deal because it robs Snape of > the opportunity to back out. He has to keep his promise or die. > Certainly, he already intended to do all those things, but he could > fail or he could change his mind with no dire consequences for > himself. Now it's his death or Dumbledore's with no way out unless DD > dies from the ring curse before Draco can get near him. Sarah: I guess the difference of opinion here stems from two sources. First, I don't believe Snape could back out or fail without dire consequence for himself even absent the Vow. Second, it comes down to how resigned Snape already is to doing this. I think he is totally committed, and any threats to the contrary are idle manipulation attempts. Such as: > ("What > about my soul, Dumbledore?" "You take too much for granted, > Dumbledore. Maybe I don't want to do it any more!" That's canon.) Sarah: After the first quote, Dumbledore strongly implies that there will be no wizarding moral implications, since Snape is basically going to euthanize him. I've already addressed what I think about the second quote. Snape also tells the Black sisters that he's pretty sure Voldemort wants him to do it anyway, and he even cracks a joke to Dumbledore about whether he'd like to die now, or have a moment to compose his epitaph. That's canon. > Carol: > You don't think that he would have died a hero, even in Harry's eyes, > if he'd chosen to fight the DEs rather than kill Dumbledore? That's > pretty much what DDM!Snapers expected him to do. It looks as if we > totally disagree on every point. Sorry. :-) Sarah: I don't think Harry's opinion matters all that much. Snape must stay alive until it is time for Harry to die, or else all is lost. Of course there would have been other ways of handling this, like giving Harry an envelope that says "Don't open until you see Nagini riding around in a bubble" but it's Harry Potter, so I'm sure he would have just opened it early anyway. But, no measures like this seem to have been taken, so Snape must survive until then. If Snape fought the Death Eaters, I am curious to know what you think he should have done with Dumbledore. Dumbledore looked to me about ready to keel over anyway, and Snape couldn't cure him, or even keep him alive much longer. So the scenarios stand thus. Snape fights Death Eaters, Dumbledore dies with his boots off in a hospital bed, probably painfully. Snape dies soon of Vow. Harry fails; Voldemort wins. Or, Draco kills Dumbledore, which does Snape no good and Draco no good. Or, Greyback kills Dumbledore, which does Snape no good and certainly does Dumbledore no good. [Insert list of other bit player Death Eaters who could have killed Dumbledore.] Or, it could have gone down exactly as it did, which meant that Dumbledore died in what is probably one of the less painful and more distinguished manners, and sealed Voldemort's confidence in Snape. And Harry Potter doesn't even suspect anything about a setup. I think it is really the best way for this to play out, and I think Snape knows it too. > Carol: > You don't know that. I've already given evidence that he didn't want > to do it. Sarah: Yes, but I think may be ascribing a higher degree of truth than I do, to Snape's threats when he wants something from Dumbledore. This is after the Vow has already been taken, so Snape already knows he has to do it anyway. > Carol: > Perhaps it will help to reread the scene. Sarah: I did reread it while I was writing that post. I guess I should have said, Snape showed up, checked everything out, pushed Malfoy out of his way which everyone else managed to get out of on their own, then awaited final confirmation of the request for "a moment" before blowing Dumbledore away, stat. It's not like he stood up there as long as Draco or something. Carol: > Can you show me counterevidence that he's glad to do it? Sarah: I don't consider him glad. I consider him committed. I don't consider him glad to do any of this stuff he's been doing for sixteen years. Teaching, spying, saving Harry Potter, any of it. Carol: > Incidentally, how do you account for his expression if it's not > revulsion at the deed he has to perform and either self-hatred like > Harry's in the cave or fierce anger at DD for placing him in this > position? And you say "of course he's angry about it," but you also > imply that it's no big deal; he'd have done it anyway. That seems > contradictory to me. Sarah: I don't see how being angry about having to do something, negates having to do it anyway and knowing that one has to. As above, I don't think Snape is too gleeful about any of the stuff Dumbledore makes him do, but he does it anyway. > Carol: > Placing himself in the position of kill or be killed is convenient for > Snape? Sarah: He was already in the position before of kill or be a complete failure. May as well add more consequences for not doing it on to the list, since it has to be done already, like it or not. Carol: > And possibly you're forgetting, "I've lied for you, spied for > you, risked my life for you." Convenient for Snape? I don't think so. Sarah: No, this is getting redundant, but as I've said several times, I think that is manufactured drama for the purpose of this particular debate with Dumbledore. Also, for foreshadowing. I barely believe anything Snape says ever, with the possible exception of the Prince's Tale, and here he has a clear motive to trump things up. > Carol: > Which is not exactly the same as his own convenience or wanting to do it. Sarah: No, the convenience is side benefits Snape will now derive from doing this thing he planned on doing anyway. > Carol: > Wouldn't he look like a hero if he protected Dumbledore from the other > DEs and died fighting them, just as Sirius Black died protecting > Harry? Sarah: I guess, but fame isn't everything. He would then be dead, soon followed by Dumbledore, and Harry Potter would fail his mission and Voldemort would win. I'd rather him be successful than appear successful to others, which is what he did. And as above, I'm not too interested in Harry's opinion on this during the end of HBP, since he doesn't really know what's going on anyway. When he found out the real scoop, he decided to name a kid after the guy. Which Snape is probably still spinning in his grave about. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 03:00:48 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 03:00:48 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 10-13 Post DH look Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184349 "You said, at the end of last term, you were going to tell me everything," said Harry. It was hard to keep a note of accusation from his voice. "Sir", he added - p.197 Alla: Yeah, this is one of the reasons why I was not terribly surprised by DH Dumbledore. After OOP I was actually foolish enough to think that Dumbledore did tell Harry everything, that the mess he made (IMO of course) because of keeping secrets from Harry actually taught him something. I mean, I thought that there are surprises along the way, but not about why Voldemort wants to kill Harry. Little did I know, lol. But I learned my lesson and after HBP even though I did not know what else to follow, I certainly did not believe that Dumbledore told him everything. "And it doesn't hurt that you've grown about a foot over the summer either," Hermione finished, ignoring Ron. "I'm tall," said Ron inconsequentially" - p.219 Alla: I was complaining a lot about romance in HBP before, but surprisingly I so far find myself enjoying those light hearted moments a whole lot. "On the other hand, the Prince had proved to be more effective teacher than Snape so far" - p.239 Alla: Right. "Professor," said Harry after a short pause, "did professor McGonagall tell you what I told her after Katie got hurt? About Draco Malfoy?" "She told me of your suspicions,yes" said Dumbledore. "And do you -?" "I shall take all appropriate measures to investigate anyone who might have hand in Katie's accident," said Dumbledore. "But what concerns me now, Harry is our lesson" - p.260 Alla: That is why I was not impressed by Dumbledore's saving Malfoy. Because he did not appear to me to be too concerned about anybody else. From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 07:28:45 2008 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 07:28:45 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look chapter 5 In-Reply-To: <65DFB036E0A041879E4BF86A2D72C8FE@PhilipPC> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184350 > Alla says: > Wait, we know now that Tonks was really depressed over Lupin, was she > ever in shock over Sirius or not? And if she was, and her powers were > affected, why Harry's were not? > Philip responds: [SNIP] > I doubt we'll ever know the extent to which Sirius and Remus were each > responsible for her mental state - unless anyone has any specific > references. Joey: I think the thought that Sirius affected Tonks' mental state was just a perception of Hermione's and Harry seems to have just accepted her notion to be correct (as he believes in her ability to interpret people's feelings - "it was Hermione's territory" per him). IMO, Sirius' death would have affected her just like it affected everyone else but not to the extent of affecting her magical powers. It was Lupin's initial rejection that affected her magical powers. Once she gets his love, she's back to her usual old self - in DD's funeral, Harry notices that she was holding hands with Lupin and that her hair was bubblegum pink again. From leahstill at hotmail.com Tue Sep 16 11:23:52 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 11:23:52 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184351 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tommy_m_riddle" wrote: >> > ("What > > about my soul, Dumbledore?" "You take too much for granted, > > Dumbledore. Maybe I don't want to do it any more!" That's canon.) > > Sarah: > After the first quote, Dumbledore strongly implies that there will be > no wizarding moral implications, since Snape is basically going to > euthanize him. I've already addressed what I think about the second > quote. Snape also tells the Black sisters that he's pretty sure > Voldemort wants him to do it anyway, and he even cracks a joke to > Dumbledore about whether he'd like to die now, or have a moment to > compose his epitaph. That's canon. Leah: Just popping into this discussion to take up the 'cracks a joke' bit. I really don't read that as a flippant ha-ha sort of joke. It's typically Snape, and it's a heavy bit of irony used to gather breath and thoughts when he's been taken totally off guard. Even though Snape knows that Voldemort wants him to eventually step in and kill Dumbledore, Snape wasn't expecting Dumbledore to agree. If Harry had been in Snape's place, there would have been some sort of Capslock response to Dumbledore along the lines of 'You can't be serious asking me to do that'. Snape, being Snape, brings out the big sarcasm guns, but his meaning is the same. We know Snape isn't being flippant or jokey, because he then asks 'roughly' why Draco can't do the deed if DD is willing to die, and makes the perfectly serious enquiry about his soul. Leah From yolandacarroll at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 12:43:16 2008 From: yolandacarroll at yahoo.com (yolandacarroll) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:43:16 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH29, THE LOST DIADEM Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184352 This message is a Special Notice for all members of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist (to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at (minus that extra space) HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Chapter 29, The Lost Diadem At the very end of Chapter 28, Neville Longbottom comes out from the tunnel behind Ariana's portrait. Immediately picking up where chapter 28 left off, chapter 29 starts with Neville warmly greeting Harry, Ron, and Hermione. He is very glad to see them. Harry, getting a good look at Neville, sees how beaten up and generally unkempt he is. When they ask Neville what's happened to him, he dismisses his injuries and then tells Aberforth a couple more people are on the way. Aberforth protests, because it is after curfew and the whole village has a Caterwauling Charm on it. Neville counters that the people will apparate right into the bar. Neville leads Harry, Ron and Hermione through the tunnel behind the portrait. The passageway looks like it has been there for years. Ron asks about it and says he thought there were only seven passages in and out of Hogwarts. Neville informs them those passages were sealed off before school started and now there are curses over the entrances with Death Eaters and Dementors waiting at the exits. Neville then asks them, did they really break into Gringotts and escape on a dragon? Harry confirms both as true. Neville is happy to hear this and asks them what they've been doing. Rumor had it Harry was on the run, but Neville didn't believe it. He thought Harry was working on something. Harry tells Neville he's right and then asks about Hogwarts. Neville tells Harry about the changes at Hogwarts, mainly the Carrows. Neville says that they like punishment to the point of making Umbridge look tame. Amycus Carrow and his sister Alecto teach Defense Against the Dark Arts and Muggle Studies, respectively. Defense Against the Dark Arts is now "just the Dark Arts." The students are now supposed to practice the Cruciatus Curse on people who've earned detentions. Neville received one of the gashes on his face for refusing to do curse people. In Muggle Studies, which is now compulsory for everyone, they have to listen to Alecto telling them how "Muggles are like animals, stupid and dirty, and how they drove wizards into hiding by being vicious towards them, and how the natural order is being re-established." Neville received one of the other gashes on his face for asking Alecto how much Muggle blood she and her brother had. Ron comments that might not have been the right time and place to have a smart mouth. Neville says he had to, because it helps when people stand up to the Carrows; it gives people hope. Neville learned that from watching Harry. Also, Neville explains that mouthing off won't get the students killed, just tortured. The only students who are really in danger are the ones whose friends and families are causing trouble. He mentions Luna's kidnapping. They tell Neville Luna is safe. He already knew she was, because she sent him a message. He holds up one of the fake galleons the D.A. used. Neville says he, Ginny, and Luna were the leaders of Dumbledore's Army. The D.A. was resisting the Carrow cruelty. They had done overt things like graffiti and unchaining people, but that led to D.A. members like Michael Corner getting "tortured pretty bad," so they'd changed to more "underground stuff." The Carrows knew Neville was one of the main instigators and, in an attempt to control him, the Death Eaters went after Gran. Neville proudly relates how the Death Eaters "bit off more than they could chew." Dawlish is still in St. Mungo's and Gran's on the run. Gran sent Neville a letter saying how proud she is of him. They exit the tunnel and wind up in the Room of Requirement, where everyone is excited to see them. Harry asks if the Carrows can get in. Seamus says no. As long as one of them stays inside the door won't open. Seamus gives Neville the credit for securing the room. According to Seamus, Neville "really gets" the room and uses the right wording to close all the loopholes. Seamus even exclaims that "Neville's the man!" Harry feels pain in his scar and sees Voldemort inside a stone shack. Voldemort knows the Horcrux he left there is gone. Harry lets Ron and Hermione know they need to get moving. Problem is, the rest of the D.A. is ready and willing to go with them. Harry objects, explaining how Dumbledore left the three of them, him, Ron and Hermione, a job to do. Neville counters that they're Dumbledore's Army and everyone in the room had been fighting and had proven their loyalty to Dumbledore and to Harry. Just then, people start showing up in answer to Neville's message. Luna Lovegood, Dean Thomas, Ginny, Fred and George Weasley, Lee Jordan and Cho Chang come in. Harry finds Ginny more beautiful than ever, but he really didn't want to see her right then. (The roaring beast in Harry's chest from Half-Blood Prince was apparently on mute for the moment. ^_^) George asks Harry what's the plan. Harry says there isn't one. Fred says "make it up as we go along my favorite kind." Everyone misunderstands why Harry has returned to Hogwarts. Ron and Hermione question Harry's decision to not let the D.A. help. They argue that time is short and they don't even know what they're looking for. Ron says they don't have to tell the others the object is a Horcrux, adding, "You don't have to do everything alone, Harry." Harry thinks about Dumbledore and what Aberforth said about him and secrets. Dumbledore was the one who told Harry not to tell anyone except Ron and Hermione about the Horcruxes. Harry decides to trust the D.A. to help him. He asks everyone, especially the Ravenclaws, If anyone has seen anything that could have belonged to Ravenclaw, perhaps something with an Eagle on it. The lost diadem of Ravenclaw is brought up. Harry decides to check it out, even if it is a stretch. Harry sees through Voldemort's eyes again and knows Voldemort is flying either toward the lake or the castle. Luna takes Harry to the Ravenclaw common room to see the diadem Ravenclaw is wearing on her statue. Harry uses the Marauder's Map and his invisibility cloak to get him and Luna to the room without being seen. To enter the Ravenclaw common room, you have to answer a question. There isn't a simple password. Luna gets them in by giving the door a "well reasoned" answer to the question, "Which came first, the phoenix or the flame?" Harry steps out from under the cloak and Alecto Carrow appears behind him. As he raises his wand, she presses her finger to her Dark Mark to alert Voldemort that Potter is at Hogwarts. 1) Why would Neville and Seamus look so bad? Shouldn't they have been healed by the school nurse or even by themselves or another student? 2) What do you think about Voldemort making his very biased version of Muggle Studies compulsory for the students? 3) Despite the source (Alecto Carrow, a Death Eater) could there be some truth about Muggles driving wizards "into hiding by being vicious towards them"? 4) Neville says "...it helps when people stand up to them, it gives everyone hope. I used to notice that when you did it, Harry." What does this say about how Neville and the others see Harry? 5) In Half-Blood Prince only Neville and Luna were still carrying around their fake galleons that the D.A. used in Order of the Phoenix. Judging from how many people show up to answer Neville's message and how active the D.A. has been in fighting the Carrows, this is no longer the case. What caused the change? 6) In the seventh book, the trio of Neville, Ginny, and Luna were the leaders of the D.A. Can we compare this new trio with the trio of Harry, Ron, and Hermione? 7) Neville says he couldn't ask people "to go through what Michael Corner went through." Compare Neville as a leader to Harry. (I realize we do not see or hear very much about Neville as a leader. Feel free to "fill in the blanks" using what we already know about Neville from books 1-6.) 8) A "Little old witch living alone" gave the Death Eaters more trouble than they would have thought. Do you feel that the Death Eaters should have known better? 9) Gran was hard on Neville; however he did turn out the way she always expected him to. What were your feelings of Gran pre-DH and post-DH? Were they very different from each other? 10) Harry only sees banners for three houses represented. Why haven't any Slytherins stood up to the Carrows and joined the D.A.? Was it unrealistic to hope that any of them would? 11) Seamus says that "Neville's the man!" There is no doubting that Neville came into his own in Deathly Hallows; however, do you feel that this was plausible or not? Do you feel that Rowling presented Neville's change well? 12) Why didn't the room of requirement give them a passage into the Hogwarts' kitchen instead of to the Hog's Head Bar? 13) After girls starting moving in, the Room of Requirement sprouts "a pretty good bathroom." What did the boys do before then? 14) Neville quickly latched on to Harry, saying that Dumbledore had left them a job to do. Neville and the others truly consider themselves Dumbledore's Army. Neville states that the D.A. had proven their loyalty to Dumbledore... and to Harry. Before reading this did you feel that the D.A. was loyal to Harry or simply a group that was united against Umbridge and Voldemort? 15) To enter the Ravenclaw common room you have to answer a question, not simply remember a password. What does this say about the way Ravenclaws learn and how they apply their skills and knowledge? 16) Would any of you be interested in reading about what happened at Hogwarts during Deathly Hallows? ("Neville Longbottom and the Rebellion at Hogwarts" sounds like a good read to me ^_^.) Yolanda ------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see "HPfGU DH Chapter Discussions" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 30, The Sacking of Severus Snape, on Sept. 29. From danjerri at madisoncounty.net Tue Sep 16 17:20:04 2008 From: danjerri at madisoncounty.net (Jerri&Dan Chase) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:20:04 -0500 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH29, THE LOST DIADEM In-Reply-To: <1221580471.2293.50809.m46@yahoogroups.com> References: <1221580471.2293.50809.m46@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184353 >16) Would any of you be interested in reading about what happened at >Hogwarts during Deathly Hallows? ("Neville Longbottom and the >Rebellion at Hogwarts" sounds like a good read to me ^_^.) >Yolanda Thanks for the great summary and questions. Unfortunately I am just leaving for a long trip, and don't have time to respond to them, but I couldn't let this one pass. I certainly would love to read the adventures at Hogwarts during DH, and I bet many of us would. We can debate if it should have Neville as the focus or if Ginny or Luna would be better. I would love to see a female leader, but both Ginny and Luna had to leave Hogwarts early in the year, and only Neville stayed there until the final confrontation. Jerri From justcorbly at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 21:58:11 2008 From: justcorbly at yahoo.com (justcorbly) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:58:11 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH29, THE LOST DIADEM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184354 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yolandacarroll" wrote: > > 4) Neville says "...it helps when people stand up to them, it gives > everyone hope. I used to notice that when you did it, Harry." What > does this say about how Neville and the others see Harry? Justcorbly says: It says people look to Harry for leadership. And, now, as well, to Neville, who watched Harry and learned. Neither wanted to be a leader. Harry was thrust into it and Neville saw the need and stepped up. > > 6) In the seventh book, the trio of Neville, Ginny, and Luna were the > leaders of the D.A. Can we compare this new trio with the trio of > Harry, Ron, and Hermione? > Justcorbly says: I'm sure we are intended to make the comparison. Members of both trios display widely different personalities and skills, but they share courage in equal measure. I think JKR wants us to think about how someone like Luna, portrayed as a flaky eccentric-in-the-making with a tenuous grip on reality, can, when the need arises, willingly put her life at risk for the greater good. For me, the underlying theme of the Potter story is that we are obligated to make choices, that those choices will shape our futures and the futures of others, and that we must be responsible for our choices. These six people are what they are and did what they did because they made their choices. The same is true of Voldemort, Dumbledore, Snape and every other significant character. In other works of fantasy, characters are often destined to follow a certain path, regardless of their choices. As Dumbledore makes clear to Harry, people, even wizards, create their own destiny. justcorbly P.S. Any other Mac/Safari users who have found that the rich-text beta editor does not work in Safari? From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Wed Sep 17 00:14:11 2008 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 00:14:11 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH29, THE LOST DIADEM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184355 Many thanks to Yolanda for an excellent summary. > Yolanda: > 3) Despite the source (Alecto Carrow, a Death Eater) could there > be some truth about Muggles driving wizards "into hiding by being > vicious towards them"? Goddlefrood: Absolutely. The date that the WW went into seclusion (1689 or 1692, depending which book one prefers to believe) is no coincidence IMO. At that time, and not only from an English and Welsh perspective - Scotland didn't join the union until a few years later - there was a great deal of persecution against witches in particular from the Muggle population. The same was true in North America and elsewhere. 1692 was the year of the Salem witch trials, something related to witches in Mexico iirc, as well as being the year in which the Massacre at Glencoe occurred. The latter didn't involve witches or wizards per se, but it might have for all we can now ascertain ;-) For some centuries prior to this date, which I think JKR took as being significant because of all or some of the above incidents, witches and wizards had been victims of torture in order to extract confessions from them. Some were burnt at the stake, Agnes Nutter (one of the Pendle witches burned in 1612 - the date of a goblin rebellion) multiple times. This earlier incident was during the time of James I, a vehement anti-witch who even wrote several tracts against them. In the fictional WW I suspect there was a strong movement toward seclusion for many decades before the seclusion law came into effect largely due to what the Muggles were doing. Once the seclusion was enforced it appears that witch and wizard persecution at first reduced and then proceeded to decline to the point where Muggles ceased to believe that they existed. From scarah at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 01:04:20 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 01:04:20 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH29, THE LOST DIADEM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184356 > Goddlefrood: > Absolutely. The date that the WW went into seclusion (1689 or 1692, > depending which book one prefers to believe) is no coincidence IMO. Sarah: I was going to bring this up also. And add that, in POA Harry works on an essay on witch burning, though it's the fourteenth century that's referenced. His text book makes light of any attempts at witch burning. I always wondered if it wasn't biased in the opposite direction from the Muggle Studies lessons in DH. If the text book is taken at face value, the sentiment of attempting to burn witches, even if none were ever harmed, is still not very friendly. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Sep 17 01:51:59 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 01:51:59 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH29, THE LOST DIADEM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184357 DH chp 29 > 1) Why would Neville and Seamus look so bad? Shouldn't they have > been healed by the school nurse or even by themselves or another ?? student? Potioncat: Good question! Erm, here's a few attempts at answers. It was a curse that can't be mended./ or that was as good as it could be fixed Madam Pomfrey wasn't allowed to treat punishment-inflicted injuries First aid isn't taught at Hogwarts, so none of the other students knew how to heal the wound. > > 2) What do you think about Voldemort making his very biased version ?? of Muggle Studies compulsory for the students? Potioncat: I think the Carrows were given their positions at Hogwarts as rewards and with very little guidance. I doubt very much that LV cared what was taught, as long as it was negative. > > 3) Despite the source (Alecto Carrow, a Death Eater) could there be > some truth about Muggles driving wizards "into hiding by being ?? vicious towards them"? Potioncat: There's a kernel of truth to it, but not the complete truth. I??m sure there are wizards who think so. Look at our (Muggle) history of witches. Look at what happened to the Dumbledore family. > > 4) Neville says "...it helps when people stand up to them, it gives > everyone hope. I used to notice that when you did it, Harry." What ?? does this say about how Neville and the others see Harry? Potioncat: It says that Neville was paying attention to Harry's actions and their consequences. I'm not sure if the others saw the same thing. Frederick Douglas said something along the same lines about standing up to overseers. > > 5) In Half-Blood Prince only Neville and Luna were still carrying > around their fake galleons that the D.A. used in Order of the > Phoenix. Judging from how many people show up to answer Neville's > message and how active the D.A. has been in fighting the Carrows, ?? this is no longer the case. What caused the change? Potioncat: Need, I would say; and perhaps the younger trio's organization. > > 6) In the seventh book, the trio of Neville, Ginny, and Luna were the > leaders of the D.A. Can we compare this new trio with the trio of ?? Harry, Ron, and Hermione? Potioncat: It would have been great to see them working together. Of course, we knew that Ginny and Neville were friends and that Ginny and Luna were friends, so it makes sense that a trio formed. It's hard to compare the two trios without having seen NGL in action. > > 10) Harry only sees banners for three houses represented. Why > haven't any Slytherins stood up to the Carrows and joined the D.A.? ?? Was it unrealistic to hope that any of them would? Potioncat: Well, I guess it was unrealistic---I didn't give up until the last page of DH-- I had the feeling from Minerva's statement to Slughorn (which will happen in the next chapter, I think) that the Slytherins had been at least indecisive about who they followed. But it would have been an incredible risk for any of them to join the DA, even if the DA had taken them. > > 11) Seamus says that "Neville's the man!" There is no doubting that > Neville came into his own in Deathly Hallows; however, do you feel > that this was plausible or not? Do you feel that Rowling presented ?? Neville's change well? Potioncat: Neville was not a standard Gryffindor. (That's a compliment.) We were shown the degree of fear he suffered while his courage was less obvious. I thought it said something that he showed up for every Potions class ready to work. He never had a reason or an opportunity to demonstrate his leadership abilities, but it does not seem out of character at this time. > > 12) Why didn't the room of requirement give them a passage into the ?? Hogwarts' kitchen instead of to the Hog's Head Bar? Potioncat: It was showing good judgment? > > 13) After girls starting moving in, the Room of Requirement ?? sprouts "a pretty good bathroom." What did the boys do before then? Potioncat: I hope there was a basic, less fancy bathroom. But I wondered that myself at the time. By the same token, DD told a story about a room full of chamber pots. So maybe the RoR meets the required need at the standard of those of who request it. > > 16) Would any of you be interested in reading about what happened at > Hogwarts during Deathly Hallows? ("Neville Longbottom and the ?? Rebellion at Hogwarts" sounds like a good read to me ^_^.) Potioncat: Oh, yes, yes, yes. I'd like to see how Snape ran the school, how the teachers reacted to the events, how the younger trio worked. What Hagrid and the trio did in the Forbidden Forsest for detention. Thanks, Yolanda, for a great summary and questions. I hope to answer the ones I left off at a later time. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Sep 17 02:06:28 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 02:06:28 -0000 Subject: Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184358 > Alla: > Heee, I just had an idea for the thread, and let's see how well it will go. > > Pay a sincere, canon based compliment to the character you dislike and explain why. Potioncat: It took some courage on Slughorn's part to exclude the DE students from his club. Many of these kids were from powerful families, and Slughorn risked loss of patronage at best and danger at worst. He then challenged LV himself, by leading reinforcements into the battle of Hogwarts. Alla: > Okay, let me try real hard to manage another one for Snape. > > He is talented researcher and inventor of the spells, potions, etc. I > mean, really talented, those spells and improved potions directions > were really cool. Potioncat: I really just copied that part because I'm stunned that Alla said it. Now I realise how difficult it is to do, because I tried to pay a compliment to a different character and couldn't make it work. From sweenlit at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 03:11:09 2008 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 20:11:09 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43e41d1e0809162011r5ef1da08w6854f78a87313cb@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184359 Hmm. I have detested the character of Percy Weasley since his introduction in SS. It seemed to me from first reading onward that he did everything possible to separate himself from his family throughout the series. With this in mind, the concern he showed for Ginny, upon her arrival at Hogwarts and throughout her first year, is worthy of note, as is his eventual return to hearth and home so to speak, for the Final Battle. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From scarah at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 04:47:41 2008 From: scarah at gmail.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 04:47:41 -0000 Subject: Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184360 > Alla: > Pay a sincere, canon based compliment to the character you dislike and > explain why. Sarah: I have always hated Remus Lupin for many reasons. I never thought the curriculum of his Defence class was the greatest, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn't choose it. His teaching *style* is practically unimpeachable, and very successful, which is my sincere compliment. There are a couple of minor issues like not giving everyone a chance at the boggart, but he believed at the time those students were the least in need of practice (in my opinion) and still, that's a pretty good track record for a Hogwarts Defence teacher anyway. Lupin's handling of Neville is especially adept. He goes out of his way to specifically build up Neville's confidence, right when he most needs it, by making a joke of the very thing that is bothering Neville. Lupin also knows all the students' names, and a lot about them, especially Neville. I'm not sure how he does that. Well done, Professor Lupin! From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Wed Sep 17 08:34:08 2008 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:34:08 -0000 Subject: Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184361 > Alla: > Heee, I just had an idea for the thread, and let's see how well it will go. > > Pay a sincere, canon based compliment to the character you dislike and explain why. Joey: Good one! LOL. Um.... I dislike Ginny for various reasons. Yet I appreciate the fact she always stood by Neville and Luna. She has always been their warm friend and she has been so despite she herself being "too popular for her own good" i.e. without letting her popularity get into her head. Nice of her! :) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Sep 17 15:17:56 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:17:56 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH29, THE LOST DIADEM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184362 > > 1) Why would Neville and Seamus look so bad? Shouldn't they have > been healed by the school nurse or even by themselves or another > student? Pippin: I think they consider their wounds and scars a badge of honor. They don't seem to be actually weakened by them. I'm sure Madame Pomfrey wouldn't be allowed to heal them if they'd been hurt as a punishment. They may not have wanted to get her in trouble by asking. > 2) What do you think about Voldemort making his very biased version > of Muggle Studies compulsory for the students? Pippin: Voldemort knows that people will accept his harsh rule only if they're united in fear of a common enemy. Since Muggles are already excluded from the magical world and already feared and resented by many wizards, they're a good target. > > 3) Despite the source (Alecto Carrow, a Death Eater) could there be > some truth about Muggles driving wizards "into hiding by being > vicious towards them"? Pippin: QTA mentions that witches and wizards in America had hoped to escape persecution, and Binns also says that Hogwarts was founded in a secluded area for that reason. Vicious persecution of witches is a historical fact, though of course we also might doubt whether any actual witches were burnt . But even in Harry's world, we know that witches and wizards can be hurt by Muggles. > > 4) Neville says "...it helps when people stand up to them, it gives > everyone hope. I used to notice that when you did it, Harry." What > does this say about how Neville and the others see Harry? Pippin: It shows they admire him, even the ones who aren't willing to pay the same price. > > 5) In Half-Blood Prince only Neville and Luna were still carrying > around their fake galleons that the D.A. used in Order of the > Phoenix. Judging from how many people show up to answer Neville's > message and how active the D.A. has been in fighting the Carrows, > this is no longer the case. What caused the change? Pippin: I think people responded to the change in leadership. Hermione didn't fully trust her recruits, and I think they weren't too confident in her after what happened to Marietta. I'd call the parchment curse Dark Magic. > > 6) In the seventh book, the trio of Neville, Ginny, and Luna were the leaders of the D.A. Can we compare this new trio with the trio of > Harry, Ron, and Hermione? Pippin: I think they would have been prepared to fight on if Harry had failed, with Neville stepping into the role of the Chosen One he might have been. > > 7) Neville says he couldn't ask people "to go through what Michael > Corner went through." Compare Neville as a leader to Harry. (I > realize we do not see or hear very much about Neville as a leader. > Feel free to "fill in the blanks" using what we already know about > Neville from books 1-6.) Pippin: When Harry finally learns that he must sacrifice himself, he feels that Dumbledore chose that course because it would cost the fewest lives. Despite knowing that seeing others stand up to the Carrows gives everyone hope, Neville doesn't want lives risked just for that. I think they have both been influenced by Dumbledore's philosophy. > > 8) A "Little old witch living alone" gave the Death Eaters more > trouble than they would have thought. Do you feel that the Death > Eaters should have known better? Pippin: There are few witches in Voldemort's inner circle. I think the capabilities of witches may be one of the things that Voldemort tended to underestimate. But he seems to pick his servants more for their willingness to use the Dark Arts than for their actual skill. > > 9) Gran was hard on Neville; however he did turn out the way she > always expected him to. What were your feelings of Gran pre-DH and > post-DH? Were they very different from each other? Pippin: I never had any strong feelings about her. I think Neville did better when he started trying to be himself instead of the person he thought she wanted him to be. Ironically, he then turned out to be more like his heroic parents than he ever thought. > > 10) Harry only sees banners for three houses represented. Why > haven't any Slytherins stood up to the Carrows and joined the D.A.? > Was it unrealistic to hope that any of them would? Pippin: Despite Neville's "still recruiting" graffiti, we don't see any new faces in the RoR. Is it fair to single out the Slytherins when no additional Ravenclaws, Hufflepuffs or even Gryffindors joined either? Canon tries very hard here to make the Slytherins *look* bad. But I think that JKR expects readers who are smart enough and interested enough to ask whether the book actually practices what it preaches to be smart enough and interested enough to work things out for themselves. The Slytherins need not be as bad as they are made to seem. Only Crabbe and Goyle are said to get into punishing fellow students with the Cruciatus curse, very interesting since we know for a fact that Draco can do it. > > 11) Seamus says that "Neville's the man!" There is no doubting that > Neville came into his own in Deathly Hallows; however, do you feel > that this was plausible or not? Do you feel that Rowling presented > Neville's change well? Pippin: We were well-prepared to see that Neville never lacked courage, and part of his magical ineptitude was explained when we discovered he wasn't using his own wand. As McGonagall said, his biggest problem was lack of confidence. > > 12) Why didn't the room of requirement give them a passage into the > Hogwarts' kitchen instead of to the Hog's Head Bar? Pippin: Even the Carrows would be smart enough to stake out the kitchens. And the House-elves could be ordered not to provide students with food outside of normal meals. > > 13) After girls starting moving in, the Room of Requirement > sprouts "a pretty good bathroom." What did the boys do before then? Pippin: Perhaps the RoR conjured facilities for the boys as needed, but the girls wanted a more permanent place to hang out and keep their beauty supplies. > > 14) Neville quickly latched on to Harry, saying that Dumbledore had > left them a job to do. Neville and the others truly consider > themselves Dumbledore's Army. Neville states that the D.A. had > proven their loyalty to Dumbledore... and to Harry. Before reading > this did you feel that the D.A. was loyal to Harry or simply a group > that was united against Umbridge and Voldemort? > Pippin: The DA as a group never wrote anti-Umbridge graffiti on the walls and did little to undermine her authority, aside from existing. I think Neville held Harry and Dumbledore up as symbols of what could be done against Voldemort, and that, more than anything Harry himself did with them, won their loyalty. > 15) To enter the Ravenclaw common room you have to answer a question, not simply remember a password. What does this say about the way Ravenclaws learn and how they apply their skills and knowledge? Pippin: I think it says something about the way Rowling expects her more intelligent readers to interact with her book -- not just absorbing the story but using its lessons to unlock the secrets of the book itself. > > 16) Would any of you be interested in reading about what happened at Hogwarts during Deathly Hallows? ("Neville Longbottom and the > Rebellion at Hogwarts" sounds like a good read to me ^_^.) Pippin: Anything with more Snape sounds like a good read to me Pippin > From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Sep 17 16:16:33 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:16:33 -0000 Subject: / Albus / Snape / Albus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184363 Catlady: > I had a similar reaction to Pippin's > : > > << I think we are meant to look to Dumbledore for a clue to Snape's > feelings: pity for Narcissa, mingled with disgust at her lack of > concern for other innocent lives. >> > > I question whether 'disgust' is the right word. To me, disgust is a > visceral rather than intellectual emotion, so Snape would feel > 'disgust' at Narcissa's lack of concern for other lives only if his > concern for those lives was also visceral. I think even heroic Snape > doesn't go in for compassion and empathy (words for feeling other > people's pain as a visceral feeling). Pippin: The innocent lives that Narcissa is showing lack of concern for are Dumbledore's and Snape's own (which she is endangering with the UV), lives to which Snape's emotional connection is well-established. I agree he might not feel the same about others. Catlady: > > For the same reasons, I question whether DD really felt disgust when > he said 'You disgust me'. Whether he felt it or not, he said it to > manipulate young Snape. This is the DD who sent trusting adults on > what they didn't know were suicide missions all the time without > feeling nauseated or grief-stricken and expected to do the same with > little Harry as I mentioned in my above comment to Carol. Not a whole lot of visceral compassion and empathy. Pippin: Dumbledore was personally attached to James and Lily (according to Hagrid they were very close) -- they weren't nameless or faceless to him. I think he wished to god and Harry Potter that he didn't care about anything but his plans, but he was never capable of that. As for trusting adults, anyone who joined the Order knew that they were going to fight a losing battle, and that they would be told only as much as Dumbledore thought they needed to know to carry out their part. The Order is not the DA -- it's not something that people joined because they'd get a chance to meet a famous Dark Wizard fighter, get ahead in life and pick up some useful skills.(Sounds more like the Slug Club, doesn't it?) The Order's goal was to defend innocent lives, at the cost of their own if necessary. Moody knew there would be Death Eaters watching Privet Drive in any case, and why would Voldemort station watchers unless he intended to be able to act if Harry tried to leave earlier than expected? We know LV could summon death eaters in minutes even if they aren't expecting an immediate call to action, and in this case he would certainly have had them standing by. The only thing the DE's gained by Dumbledore's leak was the opportunity for the ambush itself -- the pursuit would still have happened, whatever Ted thinks. But only poor Hedwig dies in the actual ambush -- all the other casualties take place *after* the Order has broken through the circle. So the ambush failed, just as Dumbledore had planned that it would. Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 17 17:41:57 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:41:57 -0000 Subject: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184364 Alla: > > > > > > > > Funny, Snape indeed does not do demonstration of Unforgivables. > > > > Carol: > > > Alla again: > > Yes, those are all good and plausible reasons. Except I was not saying that it was a bad thing, wasn't I? > > I just said that it was funny. I was thinking that this could have been one of the clues about Snape's loyalties, same as the fact that Fake!Moody did not hesitate to show them to kids could have been one of the clues about his real loyalties. I mean, we are not even talking about using them in the battle, it is in the classroom. > > So, um, it was a compliment to Snape, which I do not make, well almost ever. No defense of him was needed, lol. Carol: Thanks, Alla. I know that you weren't saying that it was a bad thing, and I wasn't defending him, really. I was just trying to answer the question that you raised, exploring possibilities. I like the idea that it's a clue to his loyalties, but I'm still not sure what his reasons were. I agree that Fake!Moody's use of them in the classroom was a clue to his loyalties, but if he's not lying, the Unforgiveables are usually shown to the sixth- and seventh-years. (Probably not demonstrated on them, however!) Fake!Moody claims that he has permission from Dumbledore (but not the Ministry, most likely) to demonstrate them to the fourth years (and possibly the fifth years) because they need to know what they're facing. However, we don't know for sure whether he's telling the truth or whether he shows them to non-NEWT students outside Harry's class, which, apparently, receives the same lesson that he gives the sixth years, judging from the Twins' (and Lee Jordan's?) reaction. At any rate, *if* Fake!Moody is telling the truth and the DADA teacher usually demonstrates the Unforgiveables to the NEWT students, Snape's not doing so requires some explanation, which I was attempting to provide (not arguing for any explanation in particular, just presenting some possibilities). However, if Fake!Moody was lying or mistaken, no explanation is required. (I personally think that Fake!Moody used the real Moody's status as an ex-Auror authorized to cast Unforgiveables to persuade Dumbledore that the students, especially Harry, needed that lesson, but he really relished the opportunity to cast the spells and put the students under the Imperius Curse. He may have hoped to put Harry under his control under cover of a lesson in Defense against the Dark Arts.) It may be that previous DADA instructors never cast the spells, even on spiders, because they were illegal. Quirrell would not have wanted to arouse suspicion (and he either was or pretended to be afraid of his own subject); Lockhart was too inept and too self-obsessed to demonstrate spells normally used by DEs and unrelated to vampires, Banshees, or Yetis; Lupin abhorred the Dark Arts and, as a werewolf, wouldn't want to call attention to himself by casting illegal spells; and Umbridge, of course, wouldn't let the students cast so much as a counter-jinx. So, my question is, was Snape following standard procedure by teaching *about* but not demonstrating the Unforgiveables in his NEWT DADA classroom, or was Fake!Moody telling the truth (that DADA teachers were authorized to demonstrate the spells to NEWT students despite their being illegal for anyone but Aurors)? If the first, we don't need to seek reasons why Snape didn't demonstrate the Unforgiveables. If the second, we do. Carol, who is genuinely interested in the question that Alla raised and would like to know what others think From k12listmomma at comcast.net Wed Sep 17 17:50:43 2008 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:50:43 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK References: Message-ID: <1C40B9AC7DDB40649415C08937451DAB@homemain> No: HPFGUIDX 184365 > Alla: > Heee, I just had an idea for the thread, and let's see how well it will > go. > > Pay a sincere, canon based compliment to the character you dislike and > explain why. Shelley: I have never liked the Malfoys, for obvious reasons. Yet I think Narcissa deserves a big Kudos for lying to Lord Voldemort about Harry being dead. It took guts to do what she did, and I'm proud of her. It was a moment that showed just how even tightly controlled people can rebel, and I loved her for it. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 17 18:03:16 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:03:16 -0000 Subject: Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184366 Potioncat: > > LOL, the fact that you said, "It was funny" made me think you thought it was odd or unimportant. Here you were complimenting Snape! That reminds me of "For a first attempt that wasn't as poor as it might have been." ;-) > > > > > Alla: > > Hey! It is me, remember? Me **paying compliment to Snape**. I think I deserve an A plus for effort. > > Heee, I just had an idea for the thread, and let's see how well it will go. > > Pay a sincere, canon based compliment to the character you dislike and explain why. > > As many compliments as you can manage with explanations and only to the character or characters you dislike, characters you like will not do. > > Okay, let me try real hard to manage another one for Snape. > > He is talented researcher and inventor of the spells, potions, etc. I mean, really talented, those spells and improved potions directions were really cool. Carol: Way to go, Alla! BTW, I agree with you that Snape's not demonstrating the Unforgiveables is odd and requires an explanation *if* Barty Jr. was telling the truth about their usually being shown to sixth-years (and I'm not sure that he was). Let me see. I think that the Crouches, father and son, were both brilliant and powerful Wizards and that the misunderstanding between them was tragic. Barty Sr. meant well, IMO, however misdirected his policies and actions. Sirius Black was also brilliant and talented. His family set him a bad example, and he's to be complimented for opposing them and not becoming a DE like Regulus. (Sirius is a kind of foil to Barty Jr., who also opposed his father but went in the other direction.) Sirius's loyalty to his friends, especially James and Harry, is exceptional. Bellatrix, surprisingly, cares enough about her sister to try to keep her from going to Snape for help, and her loyalty to Voldemort is unquestionable. Umbridge? It's hard to find anything good to say about such a despicable character, but she must have been intelligent and highly persuasive to talk Fudge, Percy, and others into believing that Dumbledore was a doddering old fool and Harry was a lying show-off. Doesn't make me hate her any less, though! Carol, giving Alla that much-deserved A plus for her compliments to Snape From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Sep 17 18:33:06 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:33:06 -0000 Subject: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184367 > Alla: > > > > > Funny, Snape indeed does not do demonstration of Unforgivables. > > Carol: his job now is to teach Defense > against the Dark Arts, not the Dark Arts themselves. Maybe DD asked > him not to use them or maybe the Ministry won't grant him permission > given his background. Any other ideas (or arguments supporting one of these possibilities over the others)? Pippin: I think it ties into Snape's definition of the Dark Arts. His lecture in chapter 9 sounded like such a load of waffle that I never tried to figure out what it meant. But the last time I read it, something finally clicked. What Snape was saying, IMO, is that the Dark Arts can never be defined by their form, which is always changing. They are defined by their result. Fake!Moody demonstrated the Unforgivable Curses in form only, which was not, by Snape's definition, a demonstration at all. No humans or sentient Beings got so much as a nosebleed. Only Neville and Harry were much disturbed by what befell the spiders, and only because they were reminded of experiences which the other students did not have. Fake!Moody made them take the Imperius curse seriously for a moment, after making the spider dance, by telling them what he could have made it do instead. But when he does demonstrate it on the students, he only makes them do silly things, and it's back to being a joke again. But Snape's "shadowy, gruesome pictures" convey to the class that the danger they're facing is real: the magical destruction of mind, spirit, and body. The messy remains of the Inferius victim demonstrate that better than the image of an AK victim, which would probably look like natural death. I think this is the definition that Rowling wants us to use. If so, this is the greater good that Dumbledore is fighting for: an end to the use of magic for such purposes, not only by Dark Wizards rebelling against wizarding law but by everyone. Now, over the course of canon we can see that some wizards don't get it. SWM!James loathed the Dark Arts, but he thought of them as a certain form of magic. And just as he thought it was okay to insult Lily as long as he didn't use any really bad words, he thought it was all right to torture people as long as he didn't use any really bad spells. Lily originally seemed to share this view, defending James and his friends by saying, "They don't use Dark Magic, though." I think her remark, in SWM, "You're as bad as he is" signals a change in her thinking though. Crouch Sr., also "always very outspoken against the Dark Side" also didn't get it. In defending the WW against Voldemort he allowed the Aurors to use their magic just as destructively as the Death Eaters. Ginny's remark, "By the sound of it, Malfoy was trying to use an Unforgivable Curse, you should be glad Harry had something good up his sleeve!" shows a similar confusion. Harry, though, is not fooled, despite being cheered by Ginny's support. Later, he agrees with Ron that the spell he used was "not great." Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 17 19:34:44 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:34:44 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184368 Carol earlier: > > Snape sees what's uppermost in the mind of the person whose eyes he's looking into. In Harry's case, it's the HBP's Potions book. > > Sarah: > It is true that it worked like that on that occasion. Other times, he just saw random things like getting chased by dogs and making out with Cho. Carol again: that wasn't routine Legilimency, though. It was memories produced by the Legilimency spell. And we don't know, of course, how much Snape actually saw. Since Harry saw snatches of three of Snape's memories when the Protego caused that spell to backfire on Snape, I suspect that Snape saw something very similar to what Harry saw but chose not to elaborate on it. He certainly saw "that man and that room" on a different occasion, as well as the corridor in the MoM on yet another occasion. But, again, what he sees when he looks into Harry's or Draco's or Narcissa's eyes is different from the more detailed memories that he sees when he casts the Legilimens spell, and the only example we have is of the Potions book floating to the surface of Harry's mind. (In GoF, he seems to be thinking of Hermione breaking into Snape's "stores" in their second year and of Dobby stealing gillyweed, but we don't know for sure what image or images Snape saw.) The single image is in stark contrast to the violation of Gregorovitch's mind by Voldemort in DH. I suspect that LV walks freely through Snape's mind as well, which makes Snape's superb Occlumency all the more remarkable. LV doesn't realize that anything is being concealed from him, that he's being "hoodwinked," as Snape puts it in his rhetorical question to Bellatrix. Carol earlier: > > Certainly, you're free to think that he didn't know what Draco's mission was until he looked into her eyes. Unfortunately, that's contrary to canon. > > Sarah: > Agreed. prior to the publication of DH I believed that Snape found out Draco's mission at that moment. I no longer believe this, thanks to DH. All I'm saying is that it seemed to be getting set up that way, and would make more sense to me if it had been. Which it wasn't. I thought X, but X was clearly jossed, so instead it is Y, which in my opinion makes less sense than X, but it is what it is. Carol: But thinking that Snape already knew the mission (minus the Vanishing Cabinet) and saw something else, for example, Draco's imagined death, in Narcissa's eyes, and softened his stance for that reason, would solve the problem, right? (BTW, before I read "The Unbreakable Vow," I thought the same thing you did, that Snape was bluffing in "Spinner's End." I just changed my view before DH.) > Sarah: > No, we agree perfectly fine. DH was published, and in it, Snape talked to Dumbledore about what Draco's mission was before the Black sisters came to his house. We could have agreed to disagree plenty back before DH came out, but in this case I think we must agree to agree. Before DH, Snape did tell the Black sisters he knew what the mission was, but I think everything he says in that chapter (or basically, ever) must be questioned, which I did up until I saw that he talked to Dumbledore about it first. Carol: Agree to agree? That's a novel concept! :-) Seriously, though, I agree that everything Snape says in "Spinner's End" should be examined carefully. How much is truth, how much is half-truth, how much is an out-and-out lie? I think we should take what Snape says to Bellatrix with a grain of salt (for example, he wants both her and Narcissa to think that DD's "serious injury" is the result of slowed reflexes, not putting on a cursed ring, and he certainly conceals the fact that DD is dying). But his motives in dealing with Narcissa are different. I see caution but no desire to deceive, as is the case with Bellatrix, who must be made to believe (as Narcissa already does) that he's loyal to LV. Carol earlier: > > I think it [the UV] *is* a big deal because it robs Snape of the opportunity to back out. He has to keep his promise or die. Certainly, he already intended to do all those things, but he could fail or he could change his mind with no dire consequences for himself. Now it's his death or Dumbledore's with no way out unless DD dies from the ring curse before Draco can get near him. > > Sarah: > I guess the difference of opinion here stems from two sources. First, I don't believe Snape could back out or fail without dire consequence for himself even absent the Vow. Second, it comes down to how resigned Snape already is to doing this. I think he is totally committed, and any threats to the contrary are idle manipulation attempts. Such as: > > > "What about my soul, Dumbledore?" "You take too much for granted, Dumbledore. Maybe I don't want to do it any more!" > > Sarah: > After the first quote, Dumbledore strongly implies that there will be no wizarding moral implications, since Snape is basically going to euthanize him. Carol: He says that only snape knows the answer, which is no help at all. And Snape only nods. He doesn't state that he'll do it no matter what. Saving DD from being savaged by Fenrir Greyback is one thing, but saving him from another DE's AK is another. That AK would save Draco's soul *and* euthanize Dumbledore just as effectively as Snape's would. I think that Snape is agreeing that *if* the circumstances make it necessary, he'll do it, but there are still ways out, including keeping the confrontation from occurring at all. (As I said earlier, he knows that Draco won't confront DD without backup, and with extra protections put on the castle, he may well think that Draco can't get near DD, who may die before the year is out, in any case. If so, Snape's promise, and later, the UV, will die with him.) Sarah: > I've already addressed what I think about the second quote. Snape also tells the Black sisters that he's pretty sure Voldemort wants him to do it anyway, and he even cracks a joke to Dumbledore about whether he'd like to die now, or have a moment to compose his epitaph. That's canon. Carol: Yes, it is. But your view that he's manipulating Dumbledore and not genuinely changing his mind about wanting to kill DD is not. (It's quite clear from the initial interview, the hand twitch, the hesitation on the tower, and Snape's facial expression, that he *doesn't want to kill DD. I'm quite sure that he didn't want things to go that far. The initial promise was a calculated risk; the UV even more so given the deadly consequences for him if he failed. Before, it was kill DD if the circumstances required it--to save Draco's soul, to euthanize DD, and to stay in LV's good graces--with the possibility of "slithering out of action" if the circumstances allowed it. Now it's kill DD if Draco seems about to fail or die himself. There's no way to slither out of that except to make sure that the confrontation never happens. Sarah: > If Snape fought the Death Eaters, I am curious to know what you think he should have done with Dumbledore. Dumbledore looked to me about ready to keel over anyway, and Snape couldn't cure him, or even keep him alive much longer. So the scenarios stand thus. Snape fights Death Eaters, Dumbledore dies with his boots off in a hospital bed, probably painfully. Snape dies soon of Vow. Harry fails; Voldemort wins. Carol: That's not what I was thinking. In my view, Dumbledore would die on the tower in any case, either killed by the ring/potion combination or by a DE. But Snape could take out Fenrir Greyback to make sure DD didn't die *that* way and kill one or two other DEs before dying himself, either killed by a fellow DE or dying from the vow. From everyone's perspective except the DEs and Dumbledore, Snape appears to be a hero, especially if Harry survives to tell the tale. Yes, of course, Harry would fail and LV would win, but that wouldn't keep Snape from being a heroic defender of "the greater good," especially if he placed himself in front of DD and took an AK intended for him. That, before we knew about his promise to DD, seemed like the right thing to do. Killing DD seemed like the act of a traitor and a villain. Now, of course, we know better. I mean that Snape would be *regarded* as a hero, not that he would really be one. With the UV and his promise to DD to protect the students, he has to kill DD and come out *looking like* a villain rather than a hero. That he is, in fact, a hero we learn in DH. But for nearly a year, he looks like anything but, whereas if he'd died defending DD, he would look like a hero (and, in some respects, would be one because he killed DEs and fought for the right side), but, I agree, he would be a failure. He had to live to carry out DD's plans and to protect Harry and Draco. But I think he must have been tempted by the alternative, killing bad guys instead of his mentor, or even just refusing to do the horrible deed and just dropping dead from the vow. I *agree* with you that Snape did the right thing, the only thing that would save Harry and Draco and protect the school and allow Snape to carry out his essential role in DD's plans. But I think that Snape, nevertheless, did not want to do it. He hesitated. He had to be begged twice to do it. He looked into DD's eyes and didn't like what he saw. And he was outraged when Harry called him a coward because what he did, killing and running away and looking like a villain and a coward, took a lot more courage than fighting the DEs, dying with DD, and looking like a hero. > > Carol: > > Perhaps it will help to reread the scene. > > Sarah: > I did reread it while I was writing that post. I guess I should have said, Snape showed up, checked everything out, pushed Malfoy out of his way which everyone else managed to get out of on their own, then awaited final confirmation of the request for "a moment" before blowing Dumbledore away, stat. It's not like he stood up there as long as Draco or something. Carol: Oh, well. I see it as absolute revulsion at what DD wants him to do and hesitating long enough (though only a matter of seconds) for DD to become desperate: "Severus, please!" That plea indicates to me that he really feared that Snape was going to break both his promise and the UV and die there on the tower, along with DD and, most likely, Draco and Harry. I think it took every ounce of courage and determination that he could summon to do that deed. Once he did it, of course, there was no going back, and he takes charge, snatching Draco by the collar (or the nape of his neck, ouch!), ordering the DEs off the tower before Harry can go after them, stopping the Crucio, etc. He also takes care to send DD's body over the ramparts. But I think that, up till the moment when Flitwick came to him for help, he hoped to avoid killing DD. And even when he entered the tower, assessed the situation, and pushed Draco out of the way (effectively relieving him of the responsibility for killing DD), he still did not want to do it. His wand was not raised until after DD's second plea, which followed the look into DD's eyes. > > Carol: > > Can you show me counterevidence that he's glad to do it? > > Sarah: > I don't consider him glad. I consider him committed. I don't consider him glad to do any of this stuff he's been doing for sixteen years. Teaching, spying, saving Harry Potter, any of it. Carol: I agree that he's committed. But I still think that, for those few seconds, he was tempted to die rather than kill Dumbledore. He may even have hated DD for putting him in that position (which, perhaps, made killing him possible). I don't question Snape's dedication to his mission or his courage. It takes more courage to do what you don't want to do "for the greater good" than to do what you've already resolved to do and agree is necessary. Snape knew what DD wanted; he knew all but one reason why DD wanted him and only him to do it. But just as Harry had to psych himself to face Voldemort, expecting to die to destroy the Horcrux, I think that Snape had to psych himself to kill Dumbledore, to murder his mentor for "the greater good" and make himself look like a villain. Had he simply walked into the room and fired off the AK, with no look into DD's eyes and no pleas from DD, I would agree with you that this was just business as usual. But those bits of evidence and the two descriptions of Snape's expression, especially the look of torment when Harry calls him coward, tell me that it was the hardest thing Snape ever had to do. > > Carol earlier: > > Wouldn't he look like a hero if he protected Dumbledore from the other DEs and died fighting them, just as Sirius Black died protecting Harry? > > Sarah: > I guess, but fame isn't everything. He would then be dead, soon > followed by Dumbledore, and Harry Potter would fail his mission and > Voldemort would win. I'd rather him be successful than appear > successful to others, which is what he did. Carol: I agree with you that not killing DD would be failing in his mission and that doing so is, ironically, more heroic than fighting the DEs. But I'm not talking about what you and I prefer. I'm talking about what Snape, at that moment, would prefer--to die fighting heroically rather than killing his mentor before Harry's eyes, looking like a traitor and a murderer. He made the right decision in the end, but it caused him mental and spiritual anguish, not to mention the trust of the Order members and the good opinion of everyone opposed to Voldemort. Again, I'm *not* saying that it would have been right or more heroic to kill the DEs and try (vainly) to prevent Dumbledore's death. I'm only saying that I suspect that Snape was tempted by that option, to die fighting heroically (a la Sirius Black) rather than live in infamy, possibly imperiling his own soul, for having committed an *apparently* cowardly and villainous act. As for Harry's opinion not counting, Harry's view is that of the majority of readers, since we see from this pov, and JKR is intentionally making Snape look like a villain. It would also, if he survived, be the opinion of the majority of the WW because his account of what happened would appear in the Daily Prophet--until, that is, LV took over the MoM and the school, leaving it in the control of the Carrows and other DEs instead of Snape. In those few seconds on the tower, perhaps a minute at most (though it must have seemed longer to those involved, especially Harry, DD, and Snape), he must have realized exactly what was at stake, not only giving DD the death he wanted but protecting Harry, Draco, and all the students by getting the DEs out of Hogwarts and returning as headmaster (part of DD's plan from the first, probably). He had to resist the temptation to die on the spot or die fighting and instead "do the deed" that would cement the hatred of the boy he was protecting against his every instinct and desire. Carol, afraid that she's sounding redundant but also thinking that her position has been partially misunderstood From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 17 23:50:40 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:50:40 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH29, THE LOST DIADEM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184369 yolandacarroll wrote: > CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows > Chapter 29, The Lost Diadem > > Neville leads Harry, Ron and Hermione through the tunnel behind the > portrait. The passageway looks like it has been there for years. > Ron asks about it and says he thought there were only seven passages > in and out of Hogwarts. Neville informs them those passages were > sealed off before school started and now there are curses over the > entrances with Death Eaters and Dementors waiting at the exits. Carol responds: Before I respond to the questions, I want to respond to this paragraph. Snape already knew about the Shrieking Passage and suspected a passage into Hogsmeade relating to the humpbacked witch. He could have questioned Filch and found out about three of the passages, but the only person who could have told him (or Voldemort) about the other two (one of them already blocked) was Wormtail. Dumbledore doesn't seem to have known about them, and if DD knew at that time, he wasn't telling Draco. That would have made it too easy to get the DEs into Hogwarts and kill Dumbledore. At any rate, I think that Snape himself must have sealed up the passages before school started, ostensibly to keep the students from escaping but really to keep them safe (better inside Hogwarts than out, even with the Carrows) and, especially, to keep the Death Eaters out. (Last time they got in, Dumbledore was killed and the whole school endangered. It's his responsibility to make sure that nothing of the sort happens again, as long as he can prevent it. I suspect that he kept the other protections, such as magically locked gates, in place as well.) The curses on the passages and the Dementors and DEs at the other end seem like overkill. I suspect that the Carrows (who must have found out about the passages from Voldemort before he went off on his wild wand chase) added the curses on their own initiative and ordered/requested their fellow DEs and the Dementors to stand guard over passages that no one could escape from because they were already blocked! Or possibly Snape ordered the guard as a blind; either way, no students would be harmed by the DEs because the students couldn't get out that way and the DEs couldn't get in, and the students would need to know about the curses on the passages so they wouldn't get hurt attempting to use them. (That's assuming that they even knew about the passageways; who besides Harry, the Weasley Twins, and Hermione retrieving the Invisibility Cloak had ever used them?) Does anyone recall whether the passages were already blocked in HBP? They should have been, but it's unclear whether Snape and DD knew about most of them. > Just then, people start showing up in answer to Neville's message Luna Lovegood, Dean Thomas, Ginny, Fred and George Weasley, Lee Jordan and Cho Chang come in. > Carol comments: Luna is a sixth year, and she was kidnapped at the beginning of the Christmas holiday. Apparition lessons, assuming that Snape is following the same schedule as Dumbledore, don't begin until March 1. How did Luna, who was in the Malfoys' secret room until the Easter holiday and in hiding after that, learn to Apparate? Or did she side-along Apparate with some of the Weasleys? > 1) Why would Neville and Seamus look so bad? Shouldn't they have been healed by the school nurse or even by themselves or another student? Carol: As others have pointed out, healing (other than antidotes) doesn't seem to be part of the Hogwarts curriculum. (Maybe Snape taught it to his seventh-years during HBP, but they're no longer at Hogwarts.) Pippin's suggestion that the scars were a badge of honor is also good. I don't think that Madam Pomfrey would have been intimidated by the Carrows into failing to treat injured students (she would probably have treated Harry's and Lee's quill injuries in OoP if she'd known about them), but maybe the students (unless they're gravely injured) don't want to bring her into it. It's between them and the Carrows, just as it was between Harry and Umbridge. (I suspect that the staff, except for Filch, are also working to undermine the Carrows as they did with Umbridge, as Snape knows full well--and intended when he kept them on.) > 2) What do you think about Voldemort making his very biased version of Muggle Studies compulsory for the students? Carol: Voldemort's hatred of Muggles goes back to his Muggle father. His merciless treatment of Charity Burbage (playing with his prey before killing it) shows that he's serious in this endeavor. Hogwarts students must not be taught that Muggles are people. (As far as he's concerned, they're inferior beings and his own connection with them makes his pathological hatred of them all the worse. He wants to indoctrinate the students to share his belief that Muggles and Wizards should not intermarry (he holds a similar view of werewolves, as we see in the same chapter) and that Muggles, if they're allowed to live, are fit to be nothing but slaves. Alecto Carrow, most likely a Half-Blood herself given her reaction to Neville's question about Muggle blood in her family) gleefully carries out her mission. (Whether Snape exercises any control over what she and her brother teach, we don't know, but she can't have sat through every class simply stating and restating that Muggles are inferior. She must have had some sort of curriculum and assigned readings and Snape would, I think, have reminded both Carrows that the students must be prepared for their OWLs. I doubt that any students expected to take a NEWT exam in Muggle Studies!) > 3) Despite the source (Alecto Carrow, a Death Eater) could there be some truth about Muggles driving wizards "into hiding by being vicious towards them"? Carol: It's hard to say how much Alecto really knows about the subject, but witch-burning and witch-hanging and dunking women to see whether they were witches (if they were innocent, they would drown) is a historical fact. Whether those who died were actually Muggles (obviously the case in real life although some people did actually attempt to practice sorcery) or Witches and Wizards whose wands had been confiscated is unclear. But Alecto is taking the same extreme position as Salazar Slytherin (who had more cause, given the era he lived in), and she's ignoring the possibility that Muggle hostility toward Wizardkind could have resulted from magic being used against defenseless Muggles (cf. Morfin Gaunt and Tom Riddle Sr.). My own Salem ancestor was accused of giving cattle the evil eye and causing them to die (I assume that she was innocent!) and of spreading smallpox (I suspect that she and her family were unwittingly guilty). She was hanged for her "crimes." In JKR's version of history, she may well have been a real witch who hexed the cows! > > 4) Neville says "...it helps when people stand up to them, it gives everyone hope. I used to notice that when you did it, Harry." What does this say about how Neville and the others see Harry? Carol: I don't know if it says anything about the others, who are there because Harry was their leader or teacher in the DA (which, as Pippin pointed out, they joined for a variety of reasons). The DA as a whole didn't so much stand up to Umbridge as go behind her back. Neville, however, seems to admire and emulate Harry, as we see in the MoM. I don't think he realizes how much courage he has always had from the moment he stood up to his friends in SS/PS. He stands up to Bellatrix at the MoM *without* hope, choosing to be tortured rather than have Harry give Lucius Malfoy the Prophecy orb. (Harry, of course, makes the opposite choice.) I think what it says about Neville is that *he* found hope (and determination) when Harry stood up to Umbridge and is determined to stand up to the Carrows in the same way, setting an example by his defiance but acting, probably, in the name of Harry and Dumbledore. > 5) In Half-Blood Prince only Neville and Luna were still carrying around their fake galleons that the D.A. used in Order of the Phoenix. Judging from how many people show up to answer Neville's message and how active the D.A. has been in fighting the Carrows, this is no longer the case. What caused the change? Carol: Probably Luna. She and Dean and the Weasleys are all living together at Auntie Muriel's, IIRC. How they got in touch with Cho, I don't know. It doesn't make sense that she would still be carrying around a fake galleon, and Lee Jordan never had one. The other DA members are still at school, hiding in the RoR, and wouldn't need fake galleons. > > 6) In the seventh book, the trio of Neville, Ginny, and Luna were the leaders of the D.A. Can we compare this new trio with the trio of Harry, Ron, and Hermione? Carol: Let's see. Two girls and a boy instead of two boys and a girl, and three Pure-bloods (assuming that Luna is a Pure-blood, not a Half-Blood with a Muggle-born parent) instead of a Pure-Blood, a Half-Blood, and a Muggle-born. One boy suffering from low self-esteem. Check. One Weasley. Check. One very bright but eccentric girl of the opposite intellectual and personality type from Hermione, who happens to be a Ravenclaw rather than a Gryffindor. Okay, these are shallow, meaningless comparisons. I don't think it's a coincidence that there's a second trio or that they're the same three who accompanied HRH to the MoM, and I think that JKR wanted an important secondary role for all of them, but I'm not sure how far we can stretch the comparison. Both Luna (at Christmas) and Ginny (at Easter) are taken out of Hogwarts, leaving Neville in sole charge of the DA. I suppose that's appropriate for the One Who Might Have Been Chosen. But all three, especially Neville and Luna, have distinctive personalities and are individuals in their own right, far more than the Other Trio, IMO> > > 7) Neville says he couldn't ask people "to go through what Michael Corner went through." Compare Neville as a leader to Harry. (I realize we do not see or hear very much about Neville as a leader. Feel free to "fill in the blanks" using what we already know about Neville from books 1-6.) Carol: I think I've already answered this question in my response to question 4, but I'll add that no one is following Neville because he's The Boy Who Might Have Been Chosen (not even he knows that) or because he's famous like Harry (which he isn't, though they might know that he, Ginny, and Luna have actually faced Death Eaters). I think they're inspired by his example as he was inspired by Harry's defiance of Umbridge. I also think he's developed charisma. Adversity brings out the best in some people. He's one of them. > 8) A "Little old witch living alone" gave the Death Eaters more trouble than they would have thought. Do you feel that the Death Eaters should have known better? Carol: Given Bellatrix's contempt for the Longbottoms, two of whom she and her cronies Crucio'd into insanity (DEs also, apparently, killed her husbane), I'm sure they thought that she was an easy target (not to mention her age and her being alone, Uncle Algie having apparently died). But, obviously, they underestimated Augusta Longbottom, just as Voldemort underestimated Neville. > > 9) Gran was hard on Neville; however he did turn out the way she always expected him to. What were your feelings of Gran pre-DH and post-DH? Were they very different from each other? Carol: Unlike a lot of readers, I always liked Gran. True, she compared him unfavorably to his father and he was afraid of her, but she obviously loved him in her way, giving him a Remembrall and sending in his Hogsmead form in case he forgot it, which he apparently did. I especially liked her taking him to visit his parents at St. Mungo's and telling him to be proud of them, even though she didn't understand that he would value the gum wrappers his mother gave him. She even boasted about him to the Daily Prophet and bought him a new wand instead of "killing" him after he broke his father's wand. Too bad for poor Imperiused, deluded Dawlish, but hooray for Gran! > > 10) Harry only sees banners for three houses represented. Why haven't any Slytherins stood up to the Carrows and joined the D.A.? Was it unrealistic to hope that any of them would? Carol: The DA always excluded the Slytherins, some but not all of whom were members of the Inquisitorial Squad. Since Blaise Zabini expressed his dislike of "blood traitors" and Theo Nott's father was a DE (old and injured but still sent to Azkaban), there was no chance that they would be invited, and, of course, the former Inquisitorial Squad were viewed as just enemies. No one talks about the sixth-year Slytherins except the Draco clone, Harper, who takes Draco's place as Seeker in HBP. It's unrealistic for any Slytherins to ask to join the DA (some of them may not even know about it) or for the current DA members to ask them. In any case, the Sneak hex, which will take effect if they tell *anyone* about the DA, has never been removed, which would prevent or at least discourage them from inviting anyone new to join. (Umbridge, who wasn't bound by the magical contract, told Dumbledore and the others who were present about it.) So, of course, there were no Slytherin banners in the RoR. it was just the same old people, minus Zacharias Smith and a few others. > > 11) Seamus says that "Neville's the man!" There is no doubting that Neville came into his own in Deathly Hallows; however, do you feel that this was plausible or not? Do you feel that Rowling presented Neville's change well? Carol: We've been prepared for a brave Neville ever since he earned those ten House points in SS/PS. We saw him change (and knew his motivation) between GoF and OoP and saw his determination as a DA member even without a new wand. We'd been led to expect his own wand to make a difference, too. Granted, the beat-up, condident Neville who enters Aberforth's pub is a bit of a surprise, as is his evident popularity with his fellow DA members, but I had no problem accepting it. I always knew he had it in him. > > 12) Why didn't the room of requirement give them a passage into the Hogwarts' kitchen instead of to the Hog's Head Bar? Carol: Why would it? They can't escape from the kitchen as they can from the Hog's Head. (I wonder why they couldn't wish for a House-Elf to bring them food, though.) Also, Aberforth, much as he resents his dead brother, has always been one of his agents (as we see from "Voldemort's Request" in HBP) and a member of the Order. I think that Albus and Aberforth worked out this escape route long before. Either that or the RoR "knew" that it was safe to create a passage through Ariana's portrait into the Hog's Head, which seems unlikely. > > 13) After girls starting moving in, the Room of Requirement sprouts "a pretty good bathroom." What did the boys do before then? Carol: I think we're looking at a difference between American and British English. I don't think that the boys thought that they needed a *bath*room, only a toilet (with, presumably, a sink for washing their hands). The girls, however, wanted a place to bathe and wash their hair. I don't think the boys had to resort to chamber pots, but I imagine they were rather in need of soap, water, shampoo, deodorant, and clean clothes before the girls joined them and complained about the odor. > > 14) Neville quickly latched on to Harry, saying that Dumbledore had left them a job to do. Neville and the others truly consider themselves Dumbledore's Army. Neville states that the D.A. had proven their loyalty to Dumbledore... and to Harry. Before reading this did you feel that the D.A. was loyal to Harry or simply a group that was united against Umbridge and Voldemort? Carol: The DA in OoP was mostly a group united only in their desire to thwart Umbridge and pass their OWLs (setting aside Marietta and Cho). The Creeveys were Harry Potters' fan club. Only HRH, Ginny, Neville, the Weasley Twins, and possibly Lee Jordan were really concerned about Voldemort. In HBP, with Umbridge gone (and the Twins and Lee out of school), the DA dissolves, with only Luna and Neville regularly checking their coins. In DH, however, the threat of Voldemort is made real by the inescapable presence of the Carrows (and the supposed DE, Snape). Resistance becomes desirable, and the DA (minus Zacharias) bands together, aided by Hagrid (and, secretly, by Snape). I think that they gather in Harry's name and Dumbledore's, but that's like the House Elves gathering under the figurative banner of "brave Regulus." They have a cause, they have allies, they have, finally, a place to hide. They're waiting fo Harry, and when Harry shows up, they're ready to fight. Unfortunately, Harry at first underestimates both their willingness and their ability to help him, just as he underestimated Neville's, Luna's, and Ginny's willingness to fight in OoP. > > 15) To enter the Ravenclaw common room you have to answer a question, not simply remember a password. What does this say about the way Ravenclaws learn and how they apply their skills and knowledge? Carol: I think it's a perfect way of showing that they belong in that House and reinforcing their view of themselves as clever and resourceful. Fail to answer the riddle, and you sit outside until someone lets you in. (McGonagall would have made a good Ravenclaw; Amycus Carrow obviously would never have been considered for that House.) > > 16) Would any of you be interested in reading about what happened at Hogwarts during Deathly Hallows? ("Neville Longbottom and the Rebellion at Hogwarts" sounds like a good read to me ^_^.) Carol: Like several others, I'd be much more interested in seeing the events from Snape's point of view and seeing the measures he took to protect the students without, of course, blowing his cover by openly opposing the Carrows. Of course, Neville and the others would play a part, as would the teachers, Madam Pomfrey, and a certain all-too-lifelike portrait. Make that two portraits. I'd love to see more of old Phineas Nigellus. Carol, thanking everyone who made it through her lengthy responses! From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Sep 18 01:50:53 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:50:53 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH29, THE LOST DIADEM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184370 > Carol: snip I don't think it's a coincidence that there's > a second trio or that they're the same three who accompanied HRH to > the MoM, and I think that JKR wanted an important secondary role for > all of them, but I'm not sure how far we can stretch the comparison. > Potioncat: Actually, there are 3 trios. The Marauders, the trio and Ginny-Luna- Neville. Am I correct that JKR never refers to HRH as the trio? We only get to hear a little about the youngest set, but I would have liked to have seen more. > Carol: > Like several others, I'd be much more interested in seeing the events > from Snape's point of view and seeing the measures he took to protect > the students without, of course, blowing his cover by openly opposing > the Carrows. Of course, Neville and the others would play a part, as > would the teachers, Madam Pomfrey, and a certain all-too-lifelike > portrait. Make that two portraits. I'd love to see more of old Phineas > Nigellus. > > Carol, thanking everyone who made it through her lengthy responses! > Potioncat: Your post was very interesting. I never thought about the possibility that Snape closed the tunnels. Good one! And I agree with your list of things you'd like to read about in that missing chapter/book. I think, based on canon, that Snape had assigned the teachers to patrol the halls to catch any kids out of their dorms. He knew of course the teachers wouldn't report any of them to the Carrows. Potioncat: Who first wrote "He knew of course the teachers wouldn't turn any of the students into the Carrows" but thought that sounded like a severe form of punishment by transfiguration. From aceworker at yahoo.com Thu Sep 18 02:16:08 2008 From: aceworker at yahoo.com (career advisor) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chapter Discussion: Chapter 29 The Lost Diadem Message-ID: <958865.55426.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184371 >16) Would any of you be interested in reading about what happened at >Hogwarts during Deathly Hallows? ("Neville Longbottom and the >Rebellion at Hogwarts" sounds like a good read to me ^_^.) >Yolanda Yes, but not from Ginny, Luna or Neville's point of view. Its probably best from a minor characters POV since the three get split. Say the Patil twins. This way you get both the Gryffindor and Ravenclaw POV. And I'd like to see the Ravenclaw reaction to Luna getting kidnapped. DA Jones [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 18 03:34:56 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 03:34:56 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 14-16 post DH look Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184372 "I know what you're up to! You want to steal my glory!" - p.324 Alla: I am quoting one line of that infamous conversation only to confirm to myself that as of this moment Malfoy does not seem to care of anything else but glory. I also do not see in this remark much indication that he is being blackmailed or anything, and in general I just want to laugh **at Malfoy**. Yeah, he wants to steal your glory Draco, right! What an idiot, me thinks! "Well, you can't break an Unbreakable Vow..." "I worked that much out for myself, funnily enough. What happens if you break it then?" "You die," said Ron simply. "Fred and George tried to get me to make one when I was about five." - p.326 Alla: So this informs the reader that yes UV is that dangerous and serious and that yes, you will for sure die. But I wonder, is the purpose also to show that UV are not that rare? I mean little Twins knew about it already. "I invited dear Tonks to come along today," said Mrs. Weasley, setting down the carrots with unnecessary force and glaring at Fleur. But she wouldn't come. Have you spoken to her lately Remus?" "No, I haven't been in contact with anybody very much," said Lupin. "But Tonks has got her own family to go to, hasn't she?" - p.340 Alla: Oh Remus, couldn't you just tell them all to go away? Very funny him showing up to Harry with Sirius and not Tonks. Was able to get away in death only, lol. "Dolores Umbridge has told me that you cherish an ambition to become an Auror. Well, that could be arranged very easily" - p.345 Alla: Whatever can be said about necessity of Harry working with the Ministry, I think by mentioning Umbridge he digged his own grave, I cannot blame Harry one bit for refusing to work where she is. From tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com Thu Sep 18 08:49:26 2008 From: tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:49:26 -0000 Subject: HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184373 > Carol: > But thinking that Snape already knew the mission (minus the Vanishing > Cabinet) and saw something else, for example, Draco's imagined death, > in Narcissa's eyes, and softened his stance for that reason, would > solve the problem, right? (BTW, before I read "The Unbreakable Vow," I > thought the same thing you did, that Snape was bluffing in "Spinner's > End." I just changed my view before DH.) Sarah: Yes, it should solve the problem. But it isn't solved for me. For some reason, I tend toward technical explanations (at least for the more complicated problems), and away from emotional ones. For this reason I have been wrong many times, such as claiming the entire motivation for Snape is that he loved Lily would be a stupid motivation for him. Actually, I still think it is stupid, but it is true and it is what it is. I was horrified when I read that. The truth is that if Snape Legilimensed Narcissa and saw something that motivated him emotionally, I a) have not really been shown by the author what that was, still, and b) don't really care all that much what it was at this point. Prior to DH, I tried to figure it out with logic, but that didn't work, so it's probably some implied emotional thing. Surely your suggestion is as good as any if we can't have a logical answer. > Carol: > (for example, he wants both her and Narcissa to > think that DD's "serious injury" is the result of slowed reflexes, not > putting on a cursed ring, and he certainly conceals the fact that DD > is dying). Sarah: Oh yeah, he's definitely not telling about any of that. He just tells about the injury, which is becoming obvious to everyone who meets Dumbledore, and is soon to become obvious to the student body of Hogwarts. Everyone who sees him will take it in, but there's no need to point out that it happened because he stupidly used a ring, or that it is slowly killing him. Either of those news items getting out would basically be detrimental to each of Snape's causes. > Carol: > He says that only snape knows the answer, which is no help at all. Sarah: I thought that Snape kind of understood what Dumbledore was saying. (Just my interpretation.) And maybe agreed a little. And I didn't see any Snape body flopping around at Kings Cross, so I think maybe they were right in their guess. They could have been just guessing, but I think they guessed right. > Carol: > Yes, it is. But your view that he's manipulating Dumbledore and not > genuinely changing his mind about wanting to kill DD is not. (It's > quite clear from the initial interview, the hand twitch, the > hesitation on the tower, and Snape's facial expression, that he > *doesn't want to kill DD. Sarah: No, it's just my reading of it. I don't think he *wants* to kill Dumbledore. I don't think he ever wanted to. I don't think I said he wanted to. What I think is, he knows he has to. I don't exactly want to do all the stuff I have to do at work tomorrow, but I will anyway. Or else I'll get fired, which would be better than getting killed, which Snape probably would if he screwed up on any of his jobs. I find a slight problem here: Carol > Before, it > was kill DD if the circumstances required it--to save Draco's soul, to > euthanize DD, and to stay in LV's good graces--with the possibility of > "slithering out of action" if the circumstances allowed it. Sarah: Where is the possibility to slither out of action? What does Snape do if he doesn't kill Dumbledore? Even without the UV, what does Snape do if he doesn't protect Draco? What does Dumbledore do? What does Draco do? What does Harry do? How does the situation improve for anyone besides Snape (who is sworn to Dumbledore anyhow) if Snape doesn't take the UV? [snipped a whole bunch of stuff that I agreed with so had no real comment to] > Carol: > Oh, well. I see it as absolute revulsion at what DD wants him to do > and hesitating long enough (though only a matter of seconds) for DD to > become desperate: "Severus, please!" That plea indicates to me that he > really feared that Snape was going to break both his promise and the > UV and die there on the tower, along with DD and, most likely, Draco > and Harry. Sarah: You are going to hate this, but I always read Dumbledore saying "Severus, please." As in, "Severus, could you pass the salt, please." They had already discussed it in detail, so it wasn't a big deal at the time, at least to Dumbledore. He was just like now, that thing we talked about, please thanks. I already agreed that I don't think Snape liked it too much, but it's his job. > > > Carol earlier: > > > Wouldn't he look like a hero if he protected Dumbledore from the > other DEs and died fighting them, just as Sirius Black died protecting > Harry? > > > > Sarah: > > I guess, but fame isn't everything. He would then be dead, soon > > followed by Dumbledore, and Harry Potter would fail his mission and > > Voldemort would win. I'd rather him be successful than appear > > successful to others, which is what he did. > > Carol: > I'm talking about > what Snape, at that moment, would prefer--to die fighting heroically > rather than killing his mentor before Harry's eyes, looking like a > traitor and a murderer. Sarah: Oh! Well, he'd probably have preferred to die many times. Or, use a Time Turner. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Sep 18 11:47:56 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:47:56 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 14-16 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184374 Alla: > "I know what you're up to! You want to steal my glory!" - p.324 > > Alla: > > I am quoting one line of that infamous conversation only to confirm > to myself that as of this moment Malfoy does not seem to care of > anything else but glory. I also do not see in this remark much > indication that he is being blackmailed or anything, and in general I > just want to laugh **at Malfoy**. Yeah, he wants to steal your glory > Draco, right! > What an idiot, me thinks! Potioncat: Isn't this at Christmas? Have we already seen signs that Draco is frayed and nervous? I don't think he's in it for the glory at this point. His life is in the balance, and LV has probably threatened his parents' lives as well. Draco resents Snape for usurping Lucius's place and he thinks Snape is a loyal DE. What good would it do to say that LV has blackmailed him? That appears to be business as usual at DE headquarters. It's unfortunate that Bella undermined Draco's relationship with Snape. Things might have gone differently. Do I have the timeline correct---doesn't Snape tell DD much earlier than Christmas(per DH) that Draco resents him? From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Sep 18 14:23:13 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:23:13 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 14-16 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184375 > > Potioncat: > Isn't this at Christmas? Have we already seen signs that Draco is > frayed and nervous? I don't think he's in it for the glory at this > point. His life is in the balance, and LV has probably threatened his parents' lives as well. Pippin: I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. Draco can dread the consequences of failure and yet still hope for glory if he succeeds. Draco is already showing signs of panic, making amateurish mistakes such as getting caught by Filch and launching the poorly thought-out attempts with the necklace and the mead. But that doesn't mean he's given up on the hope of restoring his father's standing with Voldemort. Draco is sure Snape would not want that (and he's right, but for the wrong reason.) Draco doesn't yet know that he's not a killer. If he did, then he might have considered Snape's offer more carefully. If Draco had doubts about whether the Dark Lord would reward him as promised, he certainly couldn't confess them to Snape. That would be downright treasonous. Potioncat: > > Do I have the timeline correct---doesn't Snape tell DD much earlier > than Christmas(per DH) that Draco resents him? Pippin: IIRC, that happens on the night Snape treats DD for the Ring curse. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 18 19:32:10 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:32:10 -0000 Subject: HBP CH 17-19 Post DH Look Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184376 "He accused me of being Dumbledore's man through and through." "How very rude of him." "I told him I was." Dumbledore opened his mouth to speak and then closed it again. Behind Harry, Fawkes the phoenix let out a low, soft, musical cry. To Harry's intense embarrassment, he suddenly realized that Dumbledore's bright blue eyes looked rather watery, and started hastily at his own knees. When Dumbledore spoke, however, his voice was quite steady. "I am very touched, Harry" - p.358 Alla: Interesting. I did remember the gist of this conversation before I reread the chapter, but I did not remember Dumbledore's *watery* eyes. I wonder whether in light of the DH revelations Dumbledore may think that to be called Dumbledore's man is not that big of an honor for Harry and more of an honor for Dumbledore that he may not think he deserves that much. Because after book 6 I just thought it was a sentimental acknowledgement or something. "And Morfin never realized he hadn't done it?" "Never," said Dumbledore. "He gave, as I say, a full and boastful confession." "But he had this real memory in him all the time!" "Yes, but it took a great deal of skilled Legilimency to coax it out of him," said Dumbledore. " and why should anybody delve further into Morfin's mind when he had already confessed to the crime? However, I was able to secure a visit to Morfin in the last weeks of his life, by which time I was attempting to discover as much as I could about Voldemort's past. I extracted this memory with difficulty. When I saw what it contained, I attempted to use it to secure Morfin's release from Azkaban. Before the Ministry reached their decision, however, Morfin had died" - p.368 Alla: Ouch. I was always angry at Dumbledore for not helping Sirius, but I honestly never connected this with Sirius' plight. Now tell me, I am not crasy, right? This happened at least several years earlier before Godric Hollow and Sirius' arrest? Yeah, math is not my strong suit either, lol. SO if it is happened much earlier, Dumbledore already **knows** of the precedent that somebody can be framed for murder. I mean, of course circumstances are not exactly alike, but I believe that the key point here is framing for murder. He extracted a memory with legilimency and he did not even bother to try that with Sirius, who was one of his soldiers? Ugh. On the other hand, here I see another very understandable reason why Dumbledore is in no great hurry to go out of his way to cooperate with Ministry. Not that I fully justify him, but it looks to me as if he got burned more than once on that in the past. "Professor Slughorn is an extremely able wizard who will be expecting both," said Dumbledore. "He is much more accomplished at Occlumency than poor Morfin gaunt, and I would be astonished if he has not carried an antidote to Veritaserum with him ever since I coerced him into giving me this travesty of recollection" - p.372 Alla: Did Dumbledore ever wanted Horace back in school for any other purpose other than getting a memory from him? I really am not sure anymore. I mean I always thought it was a part of the reason, but I was hoping that he really wanted him as teacher too. "It's terrible," growled Hagrid into his beard, as the three of them walked back along the corridor to the marble staircase. "All this new security, an' kids are still gettin' hurt... Dumbledore's worried sick... He don't say much, but I can tell..." - p.404 Alla: You sure about that Hagrid? I mean, as you kindly informed us Dumbledore is not saying much, maybe you just reconstructed what you would like Dumbledore to think? Because if he is so worried sick about kids getting hurt, maybe it makes some sort of sense to apprehend the one who is hurting them? "And Harry Potter's now having an argument with his Keeper," said Luna serenely, while both Hufflepuffs and Slytherins below in the crowd cheered and jeered. " I don't think that' ll help him find the Snitch, but maybe it's a clever ruse..." - p.414 Alla: I laughed over this commentary. If Luna had more moments like that, I would have liked her so much more. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Sep 18 19:43:25 2008 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:43:25 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH29, THE LOST DIADEM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184377 > Carol: > Probably Luna. She and Dean and the Weasleys are all living together > at Auntie Muriel's, IIRC. How they got in touch with Cho, I don't > know. It doesn't make sense that she would still be carrying around a > fake galleon, and Lee Jordan never had one. The other DA members are > still at school, hiding in the RoR, and wouldn't need fake galleons. Hickengruendler: When Cho entered Hogwarts, she at once turned to Michael Corner, her boyfriend, and said, that she got the message. So I assume, it was Michael, who stayed in contact with her. Given, that at the time Michael went to Hogwarts for his last year, both of them knew, who the new Headmaster was and that he was supposedly in league with Voldemort, I can see Cho trying to use her coin again, to hear, what is going to happen with Michael. Yolanda: > > 6) In the seventh book, the trio of Neville, Ginny, and Luna were > the leaders of the D.A. Can we compare this new trio with the trio of > Harry, Ron, and Hermione? Hickengruendler: I think the text encourages a comparison between Harry and Neville, with both being a part of the prophecy and having a somewhat similar yet also very different past. I see Neville, symbolically speaking, as Harry's little brother, who just like Harry tries to find his place within Hogwarts (standing for the Wizarding society), just on a much smaller level in the beginning. One of the reasons, why I liked the killing of Nagini so much, is because it simply fits, IMO. Just like Harry killed the Basilisk, his "little brother", killed the Basiliks "little sister", even using the same weapon drawn from the same artifact. Which in both cases put their doubts to rest, if they really belong into Gryffindor. Luna can easily be compared with Hermione, as she is her opposite, but in her own way just as clever as Hermione. Which leaves Ron and Ginny, but I find it hard to find any parallels between them, except the shallow ones like both being Weasleys. Potioncat: Actually, there are 3 trios. The Marauders... Hickengruendler: It are moment like these, where I'd almost pity Peter, if he were real. Hickengruendler, liking Potioncat's last post very much and apoligizing for the somewhat snarky answer, but I couldn't resist ;-) From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Sep 18 20:33:57 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:33:57 -0000 Subject: CHAPDISC: DH29, THE LOST DIADEM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184378 > Potioncat: > Actually, there are 3 trios. The Marauders... > > Hickengruendler: > > It are moment like these, where I'd almost pity Peter, if he were > real. > > Hickengruendler, liking Potioncat's last post very much and > apoligizing for the somewhat snarky answer, but I couldn't resist ;- ) Potioncat: There are 3 kinds of people in the world. Those who can count and those who can't. Yes, I did forget Peter. But that reminds me. In PoA when McGonagall was talking about James and Sirius, she said James and Sirius were always together and Peter followed after them. No mention of poor Remus. There were interesting dynamics in the Marauders. Going off now, to decide if I'd be thought of as poor in math, or forgetful. :-) From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Sep 18 23:05:42 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 23:05:42 -0000 Subject: HBP CH 17-19 Post DH Look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184379 > > Alla: > > Ouch. I was always angry at Dumbledore for not helping Sirius, but I honestly never connected this with Sirius' plight. > > Now tell me, I am not crasy, right? This happened at least several > years earlier before Godric Hollow and Sirius' arrest? Yeah, math is not my strong suit either, lol. > > SO if it is happened much earlier, Dumbledore already **knows** of > the precedent that somebody can be framed for murder. I mean, of > course circumstances are not exactly alike, but I believe that the > key point here is framing for murder. He extracted a memory with > legilimency and he did not even bother to try that with Sirius, who > was one of his soldiers? Ugh. Pippin: The tables are turned here. This time it's Dumbledore who failed to shake off his usual patterns of thought and look beyond the obvious, the obvious being that Voldemort had already been vaporized and could not possibly have modified the memories of all the Muggles who testified that they'd seen Sirius murder Peter and twelve others. Nor could Voldemort have persuaded James and Lily to make someone else their Secret-keeper. If he could do that, he'd have just made them hand over Harry. Unfortunately the memories of the Muggle witnesses *were* modified, after they'd given their testimony to the Ministry, so Dumbledore had no chance of interviewing them himself or checking their memories in the pensieve. The only witness left was Sirius, whose laughter must have seemed an outright confession. And again it was impossible that Sirius's memories could have been modified by Voldemort. So this time, Dumbledore's habit of suspecting the hand of Voldemort betrayed him, IMO. He knew that Voldemort could not have framed Sirius for the murders, and omitted to consider that Sirius might have been framed by someone else. We know that Dumbledore regards his emotional biases as a weakness. Perhaps he did not go to see Sirius because he feared he would indeed be moved by Sirius's plight despite believing him guilty. Though he's certainly many times manipulated evidence and witnesses so that no conviction took place, I do not recall that Dumbledore ever helped a person whom he believed to be guilty escape the law once they'd been convicted of a crime. Alla: > > You sure about that Hagrid? I mean, as you kindly informed us > Dumbledore is not saying much, maybe you just reconstructed what you would like Dumbledore to think? > > Because if he is so worried sick about kids getting hurt, maybe it > makes some sort of sense to apprehend the one who is hurting them? Pippin: I am sure Dumbledore would have liked very much to apprehend Voldemort. Draco is not the only student who could be hexed, tricked or blackmailed into trying to kill someone. But he *is* the one that Dumbledore knows about. Surely it's easier to keep an eye on one suspect out of a thousand and prevent him from committing crimes when you know who it is. Besides, as long as he's playing the "make Draco try to kill Dumbledore" game, Voldemort won't start the "make Snape kill Dumbledore and put the Carrows on the staff at Hogwarts" game. The Carrows are indirectly responsible for the death of Crabbe -- how many students would they have killed if they'd had more time? > "And Harry Potter's now having an argument with his Keeper," said > Luna serenely, while both Hufflepuffs and Slytherins below in the > crowd cheered and jeered. " I don't think that' ll help him find the Snitch, but maybe it's a clever ruse..." - p.414 > Pippin: Nothing to add to your comment on Luna, but this is a moment where Slytherin and Hufflepuff show some solidarity. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 19 02:58:13 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 02:58:13 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapter 20 Post DH Look Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184380 "I thought I had made it clear to you how very important that memory is. Indeed, I did my best to impress upon you that it is the most crucial memory of all and that we will be wasting our time without it" - p.428 Alla: Funny, before DH I really enjoyed how Dumbledore scolds Harry in this chapter. I thought that it was really similar of how Lupin scolds Harry in PoA and nicely contrasts Snape's style of "teaching" Harry. And now I am rereading it and thinking some different thoughts. Oh I am still enjoying Dumbledore's style here as an example of what works for Harry, but I am also thinking why the hell Dumbledore needed Harry to do that. I mean, I am guessing that Dumbledore scared Slughorn out of his wits if he now walks with Veritaserum ( in previous chapter we learned that), so basically Dumbledore wants Harry to do something that he was not completely succesful with. And it is rather strong bit of manipulation, right? So question one - why in light of DH that was needed? I mean, I understand why they needed a memory, I just do not see that Dumbledore could not try one more time. But what I am also trying to say is that I was sort of seeing the arguments that Dumbledore is teaching Harry Slytherin art of manipulation because he would need it for final battle, final encounter. And final encounter needed sacrifice and not manipulation. SO, yes, I wonder why all this was needed. "Then if I were to go to the Hog's Head tonight, I would not find a group of them - Nott, Rosier, Mulciber, Dolohov - awaiting your return? Devoted friends indeed, to travel this far with you on a snowy night, merely to wish you luck as you attempted to secure a teaching post. There could be no doubt that Dumbledore's detailed knowledge of those with whom he was traveling was even less welcome to Voldemort; however he rallied almost at once. "You are as omnicient as ever, Dumbledore." "Oh no, merely friendly with local barmen, said Dumbledore lightly." - p.445 Alla: So why exactly these characters were waiting for Tommy dear? I mean, if he would have gotten teaching job did they expect just to follow him to Hogwarts? And does "friendly with barman" means that Albus had okay relationship with Aberforth after all? "For a second, Harry was on a verge of shouting a pointless warning: He was sure that Voldemort's hand had twitched toward his pocket and his wand; but then the moment had passed, Voldemort had turned away, the door was closing, and he was gone" - p.446 Alla: So if this was the infamous curse moment, why did Voldie need a wand? Could he not do wandlessly? From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 19 04:06:15 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 04:06:15 -0000 Subject: HBP CH 17-19 Post DH Look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184381 Alla quoted: > "Professor Slughorn is an extremely able wizard who will be expecting both," said Dumbledore. "He is much more accomplished at Occlumency than poor Morfin gaunt, and I would be astonished if he has not carried an antidote to Veritaserum with him ever since I coerced him into giving me this travesty of recollection" - p.372 > > Alla: > > Did Dumbledore ever wanted Horace back in school for any other purpose other than getting a memory from him? I really am not sure anymore. I mean I always thought it was a part of the reason, but I was hoping that he really wanted him as teacher too. Carol responds: I think DD did want (and need) Slughorn as a teacher, and I see nothing in this quotation to indicate otherwise. For one thing, he needs an able Potions master to take Snape's place now that Snape is teaching DADA. (Actually, I think that Snape's teaching DADA is contingent on getting Slughorn to take his place. And yet it's essential that Snape teach DADA not only because he's highly qualified (and it's the only means DD has of rewarding him for his services and loyalty) but because no one else is available per OoP and the last thing DD wants is another MoM-supplied teacher.) Also DD knows that Snape will no longer be teaching DADA at the end of the year. If all goes well, he'll be headmaster. If not, he'll be dead from the vow. Either way, Hogwarts will need a head of Slytherin House to take Snape's place, and who safer for that position that jolly old Slughorn, who, whatever his faults, is not Death Eater or DE wannabe? Please note that all this is just my opinion. Dumbledore never states any of it. It's all my own inferences and deductions. Regarding Scrimgeour's reference Umbridge, which you commented on in a different post (either that or I accidentally snipped it from this one!), I doubt that he would have casually mentioned Umbridge to Harry if he knew what Umbridge was up to at Hogwarts the previous year. As Umbridge said then, "What Cornelius doesn't know won't hurt him," and the same applies to Rufus, who was in charge of the Aurors at that time and had no way of knowing that Umbridge was punishing students (primarily Harry, but also Lee and possibly a few others) with a quill that scarred their hand. I think Scrimgeour must have been frankly puzzled when Harry held up his fist to show the "I will not tell lies" scars. (What's that and what does it have to do with Dolores Umbridge?) He would have known that she had become High Inquisitor and headmistress of Hogwarts, supplanting Dumbledore with Fudge's backing (Fudge himself being deluded), and he may have heard of some of the educational decrees (but as head of the Aurors, would he know of them?), but I don't see how he could have any idea of what was really going on or even what passed for DADA in Umbridge's classes. So, yes, of course, mentioning Dolores Umbridge to Harry was no way to gain his support for Scrimgeour's cause, but how was Scrimgeour to know that? He's definitely opposed to Dark Wizards and has fought them all his life, and he's an opponent of Voldemort (which got him killed in the end). He clearly had no idea that Umbridge would end up supporting and thriving under a Voldemort regime. (It's unclear whether she was working with Lucius Malfoy all along or whether she really believed what she preached in OoP, that Dumbledore was trying to oust Fudge and take over the Ministry by promoting the "lie" that Voldemort was back, and that "children" did not need to learn to defend themselves and could pass their OWLs by studying theory. Somehow, I doubt that an old Auror like Scrimgeour would have approved of that curriculum. Carol, again stating deductions and inferences as there's no canon regarding relations between Umbridge and Scrimgeour From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Fri Sep 19 04:49:28 2008 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 04:49:28 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapter 20 Post DH Look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184382 Alla wrote: > So question one - why in light of DH that was needed? I mean, I > understand why they needed a memory, I just do not see that > Dumbledore could not try one more time. Joey: I think DD felt that it would not work how much ever he tries because Slughorn was both alert and unwilling as far as sharing the memory is concerned. I think DD knew *very well* the weakness Slughorn had for both knowing "celebrity" type of wizards/witches and for bragging about his connections to others. And, Harry was anyway #1 in list of celebrities in the wizarding world at that point in time. This has already helped DD to weaken Slughorn's resolve once. So, the probability of it helping one more time is higher. Also, DD might have known Slughorn's liking for Lily as his old student. Alla wrote: > > But what I am also trying to say is that I was sort of seeing the > arguments that Dumbledore is teaching Harry Slytherin art of > manipulation because he would need it for final battle, final > encounter. > > And final encounter needed sacrifice and not manipulation. SO, yes, I > wonder why all this was needed. Joey: But then who can know at this point as to what would be exactly needed for the final encounter? It could be sacrifice, could be presence of mind, could be manipulation, could be anything. DD has only interpreted what incidents meant but has never expected them to happen with 100% certainty. For example, he never *knew* that the AK curse will rebound on LV when he tried to kill Harry or that the connection between the wands of Harry and LV will end up saving Harry in GoF. He only interpreted them after these incidents took place or when Harry narrated them. I think DD never ruled out the possibility of Harry killing LV without harming himself. So, I think he was only arming Harry with as much information as possible - he seems to think that knowledge could also add to Harry's power and that it might give him an edge over LV. I think DD himself believed in the power of information and knowledge as much as he did in the power of love - it has helped him to extrapolate and guess with higher confidence as to what LV was/is up to, right? JMO, ~Joey [ who has just completed reading Chapter 1 of DH this morning as part of her reading the HP series for the second time and who thinks that she might answer the same questions very differently once she is done with DH :) ] From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Sep 19 12:20:46 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 12:20:46 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 14-16 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184383 > Pippin: > I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. Draco can dread the > consequences of failure and yet still hope for glory if he succeeds. > Draco is already showing signs of panic, making amateurish mistakes > such as getting caught by Filch and launching the poorly thought-out > attempts with the necklace and the mead. Potioncat: You're right, he stands to lose everything or gain a very fleeting glory, although he may not yet know how fleeting any LV-dispensed glory is. He does know how very likely he is to fail. He might also think Snape wants the glory and may think Snape has a good chance of getting it. I had the feeling Alla thought Draco still had visions of glory in his head--like he did at the beginning of the year. Draco says, 'it's my job he gave it to me." At this point, I'm not sure if Draco is still proud of that and wants to stay in charge, doesn't trust Snape, or is afraid of the consequences of accepting help from Snape. > Potioncat: > > > > Do I have the timeline correct---doesn't Snape tell DD much earlier > > than Christmas(per DH) that Draco resents him? > > Pippin: > IIRC, that happens on the night Snape treats DD for the Ring curse. Potioncat: Which may explain why Narcissa reminds Severus that he is Draco's favorite teacher. She may think Severus needs a little balm. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Sep 19 15:27:17 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:27:17 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapter 20 Post DH Look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184384 > Alla: . I mean, I am guessing that Dumbledore scared > Slughorn out of his wits if he now walks with Veritaserum ( in > previous chapter we learned that), so basically Dumbledore wants > Harry to do something that he was not completely succesful with. > > And it is rather strong bit of manipulation, right? > > > So question one - why in light of DH that was needed? I mean, I > understand why they needed a memory, I just do not see that > Dumbledore could not try one more time. Pippin: Dumbledore gave the reason: he didn't think he could get away with it. Slughorn was on guard and would defend himself. Slughorn would have the ministry on his side if Dumbledore broke the law, and what if Slughorn destroyed the memory completely? Dumbledore doesn't know what skills Harry will need to destroy the horcruxes. He's teaching Harry to recognize his strengths, which include celebrity glamour. But in the event, Harry uses other strengths to retrieve the memory: his resemblance to Lily, and a legal truth potion (in vino, veritas.) His resemblance to Lily is rather important in DH, I'd say. So is the idea that superweapons are more trouble than they are worth. > > > Alla: > > So why exactly these characters were waiting for Tommy dear? I mean, if he would have gotten teaching job did they expect just to follow him to Hogwarts? Pippin: Voldemort doesn't really want the teaching job, he's there to hide the horcrux and curse the DADA position. His henchmen are evidence of that, which is why it's unwelcome news that Albus knows about them. Voldemort would have found a reason to turn down the job if he'd been offered it, I fancy. His ambitions have grown far beyond being a Hogwarts teacher by this time. But he wanted it to be his idea, not Albus's. I think Voldemort actually did the curse after he'd left the interview. He was tempted to do it right then, but restrained himself. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 20 02:24:23 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 02:24:23 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapter 20 Post DH Look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184385 > Pippin: > Dumbledore doesn't know what skills Harry will need to destroy the > horcruxes. He's teaching Harry to recognize his strengths, which > include celebrity glamour. But in the event, Harry uses other > strengths to retrieve the memory: his resemblance to Lily, and a legal > truth potion (in vino, veritas.) His resemblance to Lily is rather > important in DH, I'd say. So is the idea that superweapons are more > trouble than they are worth. Alla: Hmmm, but I was talking about final encounter and it was more concerned with Hallows and again, involved sacrifice. I was under impression that Dumbledore knew very well that to win Harry will have to sacrifice himself. Are you saying that he really was not sure? And could you clarify about superweapons being more trouble than they are worth? Are you saying that Dumbledore grasped this idea or are you saying something totally different? > Pippin: > Voldemort doesn't really want the teaching job, he's there to hide > the horcrux and curse the DADA position. His henchmen are evidence of > that, which is why it's unwelcome news that Albus knows about them. Alla: Interesting. I mean Albus is of course asking why is he really there, but I was under impression that Voldemort wanted what you described and that he would not minded teaching position as well - the only place he ever called home, etc. Pippin: > Voldemort would have found a reason to turn down the job if he'd been > offered it, I fancy. His ambitions have grown far beyond being a > Hogwarts teacher by this time. But he wanted it to be his idea, not > Albus's. Alla: Maybe you are right, I just did not get that from conversation. Pippin: > I think Voldemort actually did the curse after he'd left the > interview. He was tempted to do it right then, but restrained himself. Alla: Hmmm, and again I cannot prove or disprove it and you are likely right, but don't you think that he can make decision because of the emotion as well? Joey: But then who can know at this point as to what would be exactly needed for the final encounter? It could be sacrifice, could be presence of mind, could be manipulation, could be anything. Alla: I don't know, you guys seem to be sure, but to me Dumbledore was very clear when he talks to Snape in DH. I think he was absolutely sure that Harry's willing death was needed. IMO of course. Joe: DD has only interpreted what incidents meant but has never expected them to happen with 100% certainty. Alla: Well, yes, sure, but to me it is summed up nicely when Dumbledore says that his guesses are usually right. Yeah, he tries to play modest guy, but I think he is meant to be right in the intellectual predictions part, just as Hermione. I mean, he misses the mark thank goodness so many times when he tries to play psychologist IMO, but I honestly do not remember when he was wrong on facts. Joe: For example, he never *knew* that the AK curse will rebound on LV when he tried to kill Harry or that the connection between the wands of Harry and LV will end up saving Harry in GoF. He only interpreted them after these incidents took place or when Harry narrated them. Alla: Well, yes, but this is what started the whole thing, right? The predicting only makes sense after initial event occurred IMO. JMO, Alla From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 02:26:09 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 02:26:09 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapter 20 Post DH Look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184386 > Alla: > > I don't know, you guys seem to be sure, but to me Dumbledore was very > clear when he talks to Snape in DH. I think he was absolutely sure > that Harry's willing death was needed. IMO of course. Zara: This may seem like a nitpick, for which I apologize in advance, but I actually think it is an important point. Harry's willing death was not needed. His unwilling death would have sufficed to eliminate the soul bit/Horcrux that was in Harry. It seemed to me that Albus's grand plan was not about that, it was about defeating Voldemort while giving Harry the best chance Albus could create to help Harry survive. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 02:33:52 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 02:33:52 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapter 20 Post DH Look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184387 > Zara: > This may seem like a nitpick, for which I apologize in advance, but I > actually think it is an important point. Harry's willing death was not > needed. His unwilling death would have sufficed to eliminate the soul > bit/Horcrux that was in Harry. It seemed to me that Albus's grand plan > was not about that, it was about defeating Voldemort while giving Harry > the best chance Albus could create to help Harry survive. > Alla: Oh no problemo dear :-) I agree completely, unwilling death would have been enough. And I am of the school that Harry completely chose to do that himself without just blindly following Albus' plan. Meaning that he independently thought out and decided that he would follow the plan, because it is a good one to defend Voldemort. So, no argument on what. Now whether Albus' plan had been about that infdeed, I DO want to believe it, really, we had been discussing that in the past and on my good days I do believe it, sometimes. Other days - it is a pig for slaugher. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 03:49:06 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 03:49:06 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184388 "Well, what Harry said is the most useful if we're trying to tell them apart!" said Ron. "when we come face to face with one down a dark alley, we're going to be having a shufti to see if it's solid, aren't we, we're not going to be asking, "Excuse me, are you the imprint of the departed soul?" - p.460 Alla: So I swore to myself that I will ignore the crap that Snape gives Harry during this reread, and I almost managed to be good. But you know, my curiosity got the best of me here. So, question is if this answer is wrong for Snape, Harry's answer I mean, which answer did he expect? Did he expect any answer at all? I have a feeling that Snape was always determined to shot Harry's answers down, even if they are right and I think this one was as perfect and as useful as it can get, but hey what do I and Ron know? "Nonsense," said Slughorn briskly, "couldn't be plainer you come from decent Wizarding stock, abilities like yours. No, you'll go far Tom, I've never been wrong about a student yet" - p.495 Alla: Indeed Horace, he will go far. Sigh. "You're a good boy," said Professor Slughorn, tears trickling down his fat cheeks into his walrus mustache. "And you've got her eyes... Just don't think too badly of me once you've seen it..." - p.491 Alla: I just don't get it. I mean, I am sure Slughorn is sorry, but why not give the memory to Dumbledore right away. I mean, you are sorry but not enough to rectify your mistake? What people think of you matters more than trying to undo the wrong you did? "He, Harry, had had too much experience of trying to wheedle information out of reluctant people not to recognize a master at work." - p.497 Alla: Blink. Really? I thought this was Harry's first experience of the kind. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 05:53:55 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 05:53:55 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184389 > HBP: > "Well, what Harry said is the most useful if we're trying to tell > them apart!" said Ron. "when we come face to face with one down a > dark alley, we're going to be having a shufti to see if it's solid, > aren't we, we're not going to be asking, "Excuse me, are you the > imprint of the departed soul?" - p.460 > > Alla: > > So I swore to myself that I will ignore the crap that Snape gives > Harry during this reread, and I almost managed to be good. But you > know, my curiosity got the best of me here. So, question is if this > answer is wrong for Snape, Harry's answer I mean, which answer did he > expect? Did he expect any answer at all? Zara: You did not include the question. I think what Snape meant is "What is the difference", and so the answer he himself gave, would be the one he was looking for. It is a one-word difference in the phrasing "How we would tell the difference" vs. "How we would state the difference". > Alla: > > I just don't get it. I mean, I am sure Slughorn is sorry, but why not > give the memory to Dumbledore right away. I mean, you are sorry but > not enough to rectify your mistake? What people think of you matters > more than trying to undo the wrong you did? Zara: Tell it to Lupin in PoA. From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 06:20:14 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 06:20:14 -0000 Subject: Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184390 > Alla: > Heee, I just had an idea for the thread, and let's see how well it will > go. > Montavilla47: Professor Slughorn: He seems to be able to change his mind even after decades. He was surprised to find Muggleborns more capable than he'd been led to believe. Other wizards might have denied the evidence before him, but he rethought his prejudices. Delores Umbridge: She's very loyal and she's not afraid to go the extra mile. Gilderoy Lockhart He has a unique sense of style. Tonks: She was the first person accepted by the Auror department in years. She's gotta have something going for her. Lily Potter: The flower thing was cool. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Sep 21 13:28:13 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:28:13 -0000 Subject: Snape's class (was Re: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184391 > Alla: So, question is if this > answer is wrong for Snape, Harry's answer I mean, which answer did he > expect? Did he expect any answer at all? > > I have a feeling that Snape was always determined to shot Harry's > answers down, even if they are right and I think this one was as > perfect and as useful as it can get, but hey what do I and Ron know? Potioncat: Lupin might have said, "Very good, Harry, but there's more to it than that." Snape wouldn't. Snape made the point that a ghost is the imprint of the person, the Inferius is an animated dead body. The ghost is the person, the Inferius isn't. It's just at this discussion when I "got" Snape's joke when he called Mundungus a "smelly, sneak theif." Inferi smell bad, as does Mundungus. And even after this, neither Harry, Hermione nor I recognised one when it was right in front of our noses. I have to admit, Snape was rattling Harry's cage. Snape actually agreed with him 3 times. Ghosts are transparent. But I don't understand why the question needed to be asked at all. The only thing Inferi and ghosts have in common is that the original person is dead. But look what comes next! Ron protests Snape's treatment of Harry and causes points to be lost. Then Snape says, "Turn to page two hundred and thirteen." Isn't that like the line from the PoA movie and doesn't it involve a bit of Ron/Snape interaction? The movie was done before HBP, wasn't it? OK, maybe I'm stretching this a bit. But, continuing with canon, "and read the first two paragraphs on Cruciatus Curse..." (the ..." is from the book.) We were talking about whether Snape had ever demonstrated the Unforgivables. I know the gruesome posters were mentioned in our discussin. This shows he did have actual classes on the subject. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Sep 21 13:42:06 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:42:06 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184392 "montavilla47" wrote: > Lily Potter: > The flower thing was cool. Potioncat: Ouch. You don't like Lily at all do you? ;-) I think the flower thing was creepy Intentional, wandless magic as a child. Tommy Riddle had that gift too. But was I the only one who thought there was something strange in the description of the flower? Or was it just Petunia and me who were bothered? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 15:35:53 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:35:53 -0000 Subject: Snape's class (was Re: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184393 Zara: You did not include the question. I think what Snape meant is "What is the difference", and so the answer he himself gave, would be the one he was looking for. It is a one-word difference in the phrasing "How we would tell the difference" vs. "How we would state the difference". Alla: LOL, wait a second. So what you are saying is that when Snape is asking one thing and Harry is answering the exact same thing that Snape asked and Snape sneers at him, then what it really means is that Snape **was asking different question and Harry was supposed to read his mind and answer that other question?** When I read the question asked by Seamus and then as restated by Snape, I do not see that at all. "Sir," said Seamus, "I've been wondering, how do you tell the difference between the Inferi and Ghost?" ********** (cut for irrelevance and no other reasons) "But Potter seems to have a lot to say on the subject," said Snape, pointing suddenly at the back of the room, his black eyes fixed on Harry. "Let us ask Potter how we would tell the difference between an Inferius and ghost." - p.439 Alla: I do not see the word "state" anywhere in there. Potioncat: I have to admit, Snape was rattling Harry's cage. Snape actually agreed with him 3 times. Ghosts are transparent. But I don't understand why the question needed to be asked at all. The only thing Inferi and ghosts have in common is that the original person is dead. Alla: Of course he was rattling Harry's cage IMO and as you said he did agree with Harry. Hmmm, Snape you said very good to the answer, aren't you supposed to give points to Gryffindor? Oh never mind forget I asked. I think the only reason he asked the question is to do just that ? rattle Harry's cage and Seamus gave him perfect opening. So, he does not award the points for the correct answer. But he does not forget to take points for Gryffindor when Ron voices his frustration. With protectors like these, who needs enemies IMO of course. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Sep 21 15:58:33 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:58:33 -0000 Subject: Snape's class (was Re: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184394 > Alla: > > Of course he was rattling Harry's cage IMO and as you said he did > agree with Harry. Hmmm, Snape you said very good to the answer, > aren't you supposed to give points to Gryffindor? Oh never mind > forget I asked. > > I think the only reason he asked the question is to do just that ? > rattle Harry's cage and Seamus gave him perfect opening. Potioncat: Oh, I meant, I don't know why Seamus asked the question. It's like how do you tell a hippogriff from a threstral? (Although, I might ask how do you spell them.) Harry had walked in late, and he was talking while Snape was answering the question. His talking is why Snape turned the question on him. Harry's lucky he didn't lose more points. Oh, maybe Snape gave him points to cancel out the extra points he should have lost. But he did get Harry's attention. ;-) Now, granted, Snape is being sarcastic when he says, "Oh very good." but he does re-inforce that ghosts are transparent. Although, what the heck good that does I don't know. I guess, really, Snape thought that bit of information was fairly useless. He does go on to explain, "It is not alive, it is merely used like a puppet to do the wizard's bidding." I wonder if Snape ever felt like that?--you know, a bit inferior? But, I would like to have seen Snape's Cruciatus class. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 16:06:19 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:06:19 -0000 Subject: Snape's class (was Re: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184395 > Potioncat: > Harry had walked in late, and he was talking while Snape was > answering the question. His talking is why Snape turned the question > on him. Alla: That is possible, but when you turn a question on someone and want to punish him, be prepared not to be an *ss and reward him if he answered correctly, me thinks. Oh wait, it is Snape. Potioncat: >Harry's lucky he didn't lose more points. Oh, maybe Snape > gave him points to cancel out the extra points he should have lost. > But he did get Harry's attention. ;-) Alla: He is lucky he did not lose more points for correctly answered question????? Okay. I really do not have much to say then. But I do need to ask this question since that may change my interpretation of this scene completely. Where did Snape gave him points in that scene? Can you refer me to canon, please? Thanks. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Sep 21 16:40:35 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:40:35 -0000 Subject: Snape's class (was Re: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184396 > > Alla: > > He is lucky he did not lose more points for correctly answered > question????? Okay. I really do not have much to say then. > > But I do need to ask this question since that may change my > interpretation of this scene completely. Where did Snape gave him > points in that scene? Can you refer me to canon, please? > > Thanks. Potioncat: Well, this is really tongue in cheek you know. But Snape--being Snape- -could have taken points from Harry for talking. Instead he turns the question on Harry and responds to the answer with sarcasm. So Snape--- being Snape--- allowed the points Harry might have earned to cancel out the points he might have lost. Although the more I think of it, the more generous Snape appears. Since he 'never' gives points to Gryffindors, there wasn't any points to cancel the ones Harry could have lost. But, to be serious. Snape called on Harry because Harry was talking. It's a time honored approach used by many kinds of teachers. It stops the distraction, and it gets that student's attention. So I see nothing wrong in Snape calling on Harry for an answer to Seamus's question. As to the sarcasm, I enjoy it in this work of fiction. Would not in real life. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 16:51:20 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 16:51:20 -0000 Subject: Snape's class (was Re: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184397 > Potioncat: > Well, this is really tongue in cheek you know. But Snape--being Snape- > -could have taken points from Harry for talking. Instead he turns the > question on Harry and responds to the answer with sarcasm. So Snape- -- > being Snape--- allowed the points Harry might have earned to cancel > out the points he might have lost. Alla: Ah. Thanks for clarifying. But my question was serious. You said Snape gave Harry points and I wanted to know where it is in canon. Potioncat: > But, to be serious. Snape called on Harry because Harry was talking. > It's a time honored approach used by many kinds of teachers. It stops > the distraction, and it gets that student's attention. So I see > nothing wrong in Snape calling on Harry for an answer to Seamus's > question. Alla: Me neither. I see absolutely nothing wrong with Snape calling on Harry. It is Snape response **after** he calls on Harry I am disgusted with. Potioncat: > As to the sarcasm, I enjoy it in this work of fiction. Would not in > real life. Alla: Remember Tigana? Remember Erlein? Remember Urte from Arbonne? I love sarcasm in the work of fiction as well, I have no problem with wounded individuals lashing out at others who wronged them whatsoever. As long as those on the receiving end are adults who can respond same way. Snape lashing at Sirius and Remus, I have no problems with. Do not like that, but have no problems with. But the difference between you and me is that I do not enjoy sarcasm directed at children, teenagers, students be it work of fiction or real life. That disgusts me big time. To each their own indeed. From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Sep 21 16:57:11 2008 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 21 Sep 2008 16:57:11 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/21/2008, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1222016231.16.60120.m52@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184398 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday September 21, 2008 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2008 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Sep 21 17:04:32 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 17:04:32 -0000 Subject: Snape's class (was Re: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184399 > Alla: > But the difference between you and me is that I do not enjoy sarcasm > directed at children, teenagers, students be it work of fiction or > real life. That disgusts me big time. To each their own indeed. > Potioncat: Ah, but you see, I have teenagers at home who rattle my cage, push my buttons and generally create chaos. I love them dearly and would never use sarcasm against them. But that doesn't mean I don't have sarcastic thoughts. So, by playing along with Snape, I can be sarcastic viscariously. Snape, a mother's best friend, just ask Narcissa and Lily. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 18:06:20 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:06:20 -0000 Subject: Snape's class (was Re: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184400 Alla wrote: > When I read the question asked by Seamus and then as restated by Snape, I do not see that at all. > > "Sir," said Seamus, "I've been wondering, how do you tell the difference between the Inferi and Ghost?" . . . . > > "But Potter seems to have a lot to say on the subject," said Snape, pointing suddenly at the back of the room, his black eyes fixed on Harry. "Let us ask Potter how we would tell the difference between an Inferius and [a] ghost." - p.439 > > Alla: > > I do not see the word "state" anywhere in there. Carol responds: True. But if you were asked the question (and had been around ghosts as much as Harry has, wouldn't you have been able to come up with something better than, "Ghosts are transparent?" For example, if I were Harry, I would have said something like, "To begin with, sir, Inferi are dead bodies animated by a Dark Wizard so I guess they would look like walking corpses. Ghosts are sort of silvery and glide rather than walk. They don't look like dead bodies at all, and they talk and act like their living selves." And then Snape would have said something like, "But what *is* a ghost, Potter?" at which point I would have responded, "Er, something like the soul of a dead person in visible form?" At which point, he would have looked at me with profound contempt for my ignorance and informed me that it was the imprint of a departed soul. And then, not daring to ask what that definition meant, I, as Harry, would have said something like, "But ghosts aren't dangerous, are they, sir?" But, then, I'd have treated Snape more respectfully than Harry does, knowing that, however dangerous (and possibly wicked) he might be, he does know what he's talking about and I could learn from him if I listened. And then I would hope that Hermione or someone would ask the important, actually the key question, about how to defend yourself from an Inferius, at which point I would probably be informed that Inferi were covered in chapter 32 and would be studied near the end of the year! At any rate, "Ghosts are transparent" *is* a rather feeble answer to a question that should probably not have been asked in the first place. A mere Muggle like me could tell the difference between an Inferius and a ghost without ever having seen (or believed in) either one. Carol, wondering whether there's a difference between an Inferius and a zombie From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 19:31:02 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:31:02 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184401 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > I just don't get it. I mean, I am sure Slughorn is sorry, but > why not give the memory to Dumbledore right away. I mean, you > are sorry but not enough to rectify your mistake? What people > think of you matters more than trying to undo the wrong you did? zanooda: I believe it is not only what people think, but mostly fear. Sluggy has a pretty good idea about what DD is doing and he is afraid that LV will find out that he helped by giving the memory. He told to Harry as much in "After the Burial": "... my dear boy ... you're asking a great deal ... you're asking me, in fact, to aid you in your attempt to destroy - " "You don't want to get rid of the wizard who killed Lily Evans?" "Harry, Harry, of course I do, but - " "You're scared he'll find out you helped me?" Slughorn said nothing; he looked terrified (HBP,p.490 Am.ed.) > Alla wrote: > "He, Harry, had had too much experience of trying to wheedle > information out of reluctant people not to recognize a master at > work." - p.497> > Blink. Really? I thought this was Harry's first experience of the > kind. zanooda: Maybe JKR means the time in PS/SS, when the Trio tried to wheedle information about Nicolas Flamel and the philosopher's stone from Hagrid, LOL! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 20:26:03 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:26:03 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184402 Alla wrote: > > > "He, Harry, had had too much experience of trying to wheedle information out of reluctant people not to recognize a master at work." - p.497> > > > Blink. Really? I thought this was Harry's first experience of the kind. > zanooda: > Maybe JKR means the time in PS/SS, when the Trio tried to wheedle information about Nicolas Flamel and the philosopher's stone from Hagrid, LOL! Carol adds: Good example. Harry has certainly tried to obtain information from various people--Dumbledore, for example--but I don't recall his using wheedling as a strategy. (It wouldn't work with DD, in any case.) And he didn't wheedle Lupin when he was trying to find out who the HBP was or Lupin and Sirius Black when he was trying to find out about his father's behavior in SWM. The only time I can think of when Harry comes close to wheedling someone other than Hagrid (who usually gives in, as he does regarding the Giants in OoP) is when Harry wanted first Fudge and then McGonagall to sign his Hogsmeade form in PoA, but that's not seeking information. Does asking Winky about Mr. Crouch in GoF count? She was more than reluctant ("You is nosing, you is!"), but I don't recall any wheedling. Would trying to get information on school subjects from Hermione by flattering her count as wheedling, or is it only Ron who does that? What about asking NHN about death? Carol, whose reaction to the quoted line was identical to Alla's From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Sep 21 23:25:12 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:25:12 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapter 20 Post DH Look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184403 > Alla: > > Hmmm, but I was talking about final encounter and it was more > concerned with Hallows and again, involved sacrifice. Pippin: Dumbledore is concerned with more than the final encounter. His plan is to have Harry destroy as many horcruxes as possible before Voldemort figures out what is happening. He wants Harry to do this because (as Harry guesses) Dumbledore thinks it would be a waste to risk other lives since Harry is going to have to lose his life anyway. Since Harry does not change his mind about this after King's Cross, I think he continued to agree with this part of the plan. Dumbledore does not know what skills Harry will need to retrieve the missing horcruxes since he does not know where they are hidden. It is just as much a part of his plan for Harry to destroy those horcruxes as it is for Harry to sacrifice himself. In fact, if Harry hadn't gone after any other horcruxes, thus alerting Voldemort that Nagini was in danger, Harry would never have learned that he needed to sacrifice himself. Alla: > And could you clarify about superweapons being more trouble than they are worth? Are you saying that Dumbledore grasped this idea or are you saying something totally different? Pippin: I think Dumbledore did grasp this idea. His plan to defeat Voldemort did not hinge on supplying Harry with terrible weapons to use against Voldemort. Certainly he never planned for Harry to be master of the Elder Wand. > Alla: > > Interesting. I mean Albus is of course asking why is he really there, but I was under impression that Voldemort wanted what you described and that he would not minded teaching position as well - the only place he ever called home, etc. Pippin: I am sure Voldemort would enjoy occupying the castle, and certainly he taught the Dark Arts to Bella and others, but I cannot imagine that he wanted to be Professor He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. He thinks eleven year olds are boring. > > > Alla: > > Hmmm, and again I cannot prove or disprove it and you are likely > right, but don't you think that he can make decision because of the > emotion as well? > Pippin: He regards anger as the province of lesser souls, and I think he was better able to resist it before he absorbed Harry's blood. Pippin From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 23:27:27 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:27:27 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184404 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > Harry has certainly tried to obtain information from > various people--Dumbledore, for example--but I don't recall > his using wheedling as a strategy. zanooda: The Trio rarely, but do use flattery to reach their goals. I must say though that it is usually Hermione who does the flattering, not Harry. I already mentioned Hagrid, whom HRH usually just trick into telling things, but I remember once Hermione flattered him to get information about the Stone's defense. "'... you might not want to tell us, but you do know, you know everything that goes on round here,' said Hermione in a warm, flattering voice." After some more of very obvious flattering "Hagrid's chest swelled" and he spilled the beans :-). Hermione also resorts to flattery to get Lockhart (who is definitely susceptible :-)) to sign the permission to use the Restricted Section in CoS. But, as you say, this is not for information, and it's not actually Harry who is doing the wheedling, although he is in on it :-). Harry is not sneaky enough for this kind of thing, IMO. The closest thing that I remember is Harry and Ron pretending to agree with Lockhart about the security measures in the castle being unnecessary, when they needed to get away from him and try to go and talk to Moaning Myrtle. > Carol wrote: > Carol, whose reaction to the quoted line was identical to Alla's zanooda: So was mine :-). But maybe I don't understand the word "wheedling" well :-). Does it necessarily include flattery? According to dictionaries, it does :-). From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Sep 21 23:39:07 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:39:07 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184405 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > > > Harry has certainly tried to obtain information from > > various people--Dumbledore, for example--but I don't recall > > his using wheedling as a strategy. > Pippin: The narration only says that Harry has had experience with wheedling, it doesn't say that Harry was the one doing it. Harry has had plentiful experience with people trying to wheedle information *out* of him. Slughorn, Scrimgeour and Umbridge have all tried it on occasion. Fellow students have bugged him for details of his various adventures, and then of course we can't forget Rita. Pippin From philipwhiuk at hotmail.com Mon Sep 22 00:16:54 2008 From: philipwhiuk at hotmail.com (Philip) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 01:16:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's class (was Re: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184406 NB: Combining multiple posts on the same lesson: Carol, wondering whether there's a difference between an Inferius and a zombie. Philip replies: As the zombies in Harry Potter are mentioned only as: "His turban, he[Quirrel] told them, had been given to him by an African prince as a thank-you for getting rid of a troublesome zombie, but they weren't sure they believed this story." it is entirely possible they are one and the same. That said, the need for the addition of the word "troublesome" suggests they aren't normally a problem, ergo zombies may be construed to be 'mindless' and inferi as 'controlled'. According to the Harry Potter Wikia: "Inferius" is Latin for "underneath; below." It could also be a tampered form of "inferus", or "the dead; underworld." As Rowling sometimes changes real Latin words to form some incantations, or names of creatures or people, it could well be that the second meaning is the correct one. So perhaps Inferius are also similar to the Mordor Orc, unable to work in direct sunlight. Given that Voldemort can use the Dementors to work the weather however, they would still pose a tangible threat worthy of mention in the Daily Prophet. Obviously this is all total speculation though. > Potioncat: > Well, this is really tongue in cheek you know. But Snape--being > Snape--could have taken points from Harry for talking. Instead > he turns the question on Harry and responds to the answer with > sarcasm. So Snape---being Snape---allowed the points Harry might > have earned to cancel out the points he might have lost. Alla says: Ah. Thanks for clarifying. But my question was serious. You said Snape gave Harry points and I wanted to know where it is in canon. Philip replies: I think Potioncat isn't referring to the actual text. He/she is just noting that if a student answers gaining even partial credit they normally earn a point or so. However in this instance any points he would have earned would have been cancelled by the lateness. So Snape simply moves on. Potioncat notes: He does go on to explain, "It is not alive, it is merely used like a puppet to do the wizard's bidding." I wonder if Snape ever felt like that?--you know, a bit inferior? Philip responds: I think that this scene is given to Snape for this reason. He displays characteristics of both creatures. Ghosts are transparent, an imprint of a departed soul. Lily Potter has departed many years ago, but an imprint of her is left on Snape, something no-one can touch, taste, smell or feel - his Patronus and actions. Inferi are directed, controlled and operated by a powerful wizard, a pawn thrust out into battle. In the same way, Dumbeldore and Voldemort both sacrifice Snape and others to advance their aims. Nor does Snape care whether he lives or dies so long as he fulfils what he sees as his purpose. To him he has already failed, so his life is freely given, to redeem himself. In another way he is not at all like them. His character is nothing is not transparent to the reader, lying beneath a poker face and an intricate web of lies and falsehoods. As a Professor he is seen not to be inferior, as a Death Eater he is given the seat to Voldemort's immediate right in DH chapter 1 pg 11 - something that indicates trust (and of course Voldemort values only power) and slain by Voldemort himself. As a member of the Order he is trusted unequivocally by Dumbeldore. So yes, I think this scene is interesting for many reasons. Philip From catlady at wicca.net Mon Sep 22 01:32:08 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 01:32:08 -0000 Subject: Albus again/ Chapter 29 ???s/ Snape DADA / Albus Memory Charm / Snape DADA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184407 Carol wrote to me in : << I guess I see DD as calculating, manipulative, secretive, egotistical,vand hypocritical but not quite as cold and unfeeling as you make him sound. In fact, your version of Dumbledore sounds like Milton's Satan: "Evil, be thou my good." >> Oh, no, not what I meant. I view DD as always committed to Good, altho' intellectually rather than viscerally, very naively when he was young, and always egotistically. When young Gellert turned young Albus on to planning world dominion, I imagine Gellert's reason to want to rule the world was personal ambition, but naive young Albus's reason was sincerely for 'the greater good'. Not merely that it would be good for wizards if they controlled Muggles so that Muggles could no longer physically attack wizards, but also that it would be good for Muggles -- in exchange for giving up their autonomy to make really stupid decisions (World War I is a prime example of a really stupid decision, but hadn't happened yet at the time), Muggles would get magical healing, magical gadgets, all the things that wizards can't imagine how Muggles can survive without. He probably phrased it as wizards being shepherds and Muggle being sheep, except the part about eating mutton. I seem to recall that when I was around that age, I believed there would be no war, no poverty, no terrorism, no racism, no bullying, and no one unable to get what limited care medical science had figured out, if only everyone in the world would just wise up and do as I told them. Magical healing seems able to do a lot more than medical science can. And it seems to me that using magic instead of 'technology' would cause a lot less pollution and habitat destruction and global warming, altho' I doubt even Albus was worried about those things in the year 1900. Yolanda summarized Chapter 29 in and asked: << 3) Despite the source (Alecto Carrow, a Death Eater) could there be some truth about Muggles driving wizards "into hiding by being vicious towards them"? >> To which Pippin replied in : << QTA mentions that witches and wizards in America had hoped to escape persecution, and Binns also says that Hogwarts was founded in a secluded area for that reason. Vicious persecution of witches is a historical fact, though of course we also might doubt whether any actual witches were burnt . But even in Harry's world, we know that witches and wizards can be hurt by Muggles. >> Apologies to all the other listies who answered this question, but Pippin's seemed best suited as an excuse for my comment. I completely agree that the wizarding folk went into hiding to protect themselves from Muggle oppression, and that tales that wizarding folk went into hiding so Muggles wouldn't keep pestering them by asking for magical solutions to their problems, and that no witches were really burnt but only used the Flame-Freezing Charm are cover stories to tell wizarding children. I feel sure that cognitive dissonance is suffered by those wizards who believe that wizarding folk are superior to and more powerful than Muggles, while simultaneously they know that Muggles kicked wizard arse so bad that wizards would be extinct, at least in Western Europe, if they hadn't hidden from the Muggles. Some of the over-the-top hatred of Muggles and 'Mudbloods' might be an attempt to fight against their own cognitive dissonance. Yolanda asked in : << 10) Harry only sees banners for three houses represented. Why haven't any Slytherins stood up to the Carrows and joined the D.A.? Was it unrealistic to hope that any of them would? >> Others have already pointed out that no Slythies were invited to join the DA. I think it very likely that some Slythies hated the Carrows and didn't hate Muggles, and may even have wished that the Dark Lord had stayed vaporized. Were there enough loyal supporters of the Dark Lord in Slytherin House that anyone who breathed one word advocating subversion and treason would be turned in by their roommates? Imagine the loneliness of one person, who can't say a word to anyone, trying to figure out how Alecto Carrow could be induced to drink herself into a permanent coma. Pippin wrote in : << Crouch Sr., also "always very outspoken against the Dark Side" also didn't get it. In defending the WW against Voldemort he allowed the Aurors to use their magic just as destructively as the Death Eaters. >> Well, if "the Dark Arts can never be defined by their form, which is always changing. They are defined by their result", then when Crouch authorized the Aurors to use Avada Kevadra when they were already allowed to use other means of killing, to use Imperius when they were already allowed to use other means of control, to use Cruciatis when they were already allowed to use other means of torture, he was changing only the forms, not the intentions or the results. So it didn't make their magic any Darker. I prefer the usual question, of when it is good to use evil means for good ends. The usual example is war. It is widely agreed that it is usually evil to kill people, but for soldiers in war it is their duty, and sometimes the defense of their homes and families, their country's independence and the lives of its civilians, to kill the other side's soldiers. Alla quoted in : << "But he had this real memory in him all the time!" "Yes, but it took a great deal of skilled Legilimency to coax it out of him," said Dumbledore. " and why should anybody delve further into Morfin's mind when he had already confessed to the crime? >> How about, because they know perfectly well about the Confundus Curse and the Memory Charm? << However, I was able to secure a visit to Morfin in the last weeks of his life, by which time I was attempting to discover as much as I could about Voldemort's past. I extracted this memory with difficulty. When I saw what it contained, I attempted to use it to secure Morfin's release from Azkaban. Before the Ministry reached their decision, however, Morfin had died" - p.368 >> I remember when one listie proposed that the reason that Morfin and Hokey and I forget who else had died soon after DD had broken through the Memory Charm that LV put on them was that DD had, knowingly, fatally damaged them in the process of memory extraction. Potioncat wrote in : << And even after this, neither Harry, Hermione nor I recognised one when it was right in front of our noses. >> My memory is awful. When did an Inferius pop up in front of our noses and we didn't recognize it? Carol wrote in : << At which point, he would have looked at me with profound contempt for my ignorance and informed me that it was the imprint of a departed soul. >> And if I were so eager to learn that I was brave of Snape, I'd put my hand up: "Sir, Nearly Headless Nick said he is a ghost because he was too scared to go on. How did his soul depart if it didn't go on, and how does fear of going on leave an imprint?" << wondering whether there's a difference between an Inferius and a zombie >> You mean, besides that zombies are real? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 22 02:40:52 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 02:40:52 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184408 > Alla: > But the difference between you and me is that I do not enjoy sarcasm > directed at children, teenagers, students be it work of fiction or > real life. That disgusts me big time. To each their own indeed. > Potioncat: Ah, but you see, I have teenagers at home who rattle my cage, push my buttons and generally create chaos. I love them dearly and would never use sarcasm against them. But that doesn't mean I don't have sarcastic thoughts. So, by playing along with Snape, I can be sarcastic viscariously. Snape, a mother's best friend, just ask Narcissa and Lily. Alla: Okay, this was a case of very very VERY bad wording on my behalf, for which I do apologise. I did not mean to imply anything about you enjoying sarcasm in real life, truly, I did not. If I meant it, I would have apologised for that too, but I did not. I meant to say that I do not enjoy sarcasm even against fictional kids and you do. Sorry. > Pippin: > The narration only says that Harry has had experience with wheedling, > it doesn't say that Harry was the one doing it. Harry has had > plentiful experience with people trying to wheedle information *out* > of him. Slughorn, Scrimgeour and Umbridge have all tried it on > occasion. Fellow students have bugged him for details of his various > adventures, and then of course we can't forget Rita. Alla: I obviously cannot claim that I know complexities of language very well, but here is the quote again : "He, Harry, had had too much experience of trying to wheedle information out of reluctant people not to recognize a master at work." - p.497 To me if author would have wanted to say what you argue it means, she would have said something along the lines that Harry had experience with too many people trying to weedle information out of him. Maybe I am missing something obvious here, but I just cannot figure out how your explanation (which I do like) fits into above sentence even gramatically. From wildirishrose at fiber.net Mon Sep 22 02:39:18 2008 From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:39:18 -0600 Subject: Fred & George's Business Message-ID: <68D14768F1B34024991B2FD4F6933C48@Marianne> No: HPFGUIDX 184409 I read in DH p.482 about Bill moving the family out of the Burrow one by one to Auntie Muriel's house, and he got Ginny from school. There is a part of the book saying that Fred & George were driving Muriel nuts, but for the life of me I can't recall what part of the book it is in. Anyway. How did Fred and George continue running their joke shop out of Aunt Muriel's house if it was under very strong magic, and Mr. Weasley is the Secret Keeper. Wouldn't MM and DE see all the owls coming and going and intercept them? I highly doubt the joke stuff would be any use to DE and MM, but it would be an inconvenience to G&F if they didn't get money. Plus, because of the comings and goings of all the owls, wouldn't the MM and DE have an idea where the Weasleys are in hiding at, and couldn't they use some really strong magic and get through the enchantments and get to them? They did it once at the Burrow, at the wedding, p.159 - 160,why couldn't they do it again? Just curious. Marianne From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Sep 22 03:29:25 2008 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 03:29:25 -0000 Subject: Albus again/ Chapter 29 ???s/ Snape DADA / Albus Memory Charm / Snape DADA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184410 > Catlady: > My memory is awful. When did an Inferius pop up in front of our noses > and we didn't recognize it? Zara: DH. Most of us, anyway, did not realize that Bathilda was an animated corpse under the control of a Dark Wizard until Nagini came writing out of her neck (ick). From gav_fiji at yahoo.com Mon Sep 22 04:58:32 2008 From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 04:58:32 -0000 Subject: Albus again/ Chapter 29 ???s/ Snape DADA / Albus Memory Charm / Snape DADA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184411 > > Catlady: > > My memory is awful. When did an Inferius pop up in front of > > our noses and we didn't recognize it? > Zara: > DH. Most of us, anyway, did not realize that Bathilda was an > animated corpse under the control of a Dark Wizard until Nagini > came writing out of her neck (ick). Goddlefrood: Except the Bathilda thingummy, for want of a better term, was not necessarily an Inferi. Nagini was in her skin, yes, but an Inferi is something else; it doesn't contain snakes usually, iirc. 'Twas merely some new form of taxidermy, with rather odd stuffing. From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 22 08:17:54 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:17:54 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > "montavilla47" wrote: > > > Lily Potter: > > The flower thing was cool. > > > > Potioncat: > Ouch. You don't like Lily at all do you? ;-) > > I think the flower thing was creepy Intentional, wandless magic as a > child. Tommy Riddle had that gift too. But was I the only one who > thought there was something strange in the description of the flower? > Or was it just Petunia and me who were bothered? > Montavilla47: I guess not. I liked her okay before reading DH, although I found it funny how invested people seemed to be in her and James' romance, considering that we didn't know a darn thing about what they were actually like as a couple. I even liked her in SWM, as she seemed willing to step in when she saw someone being bullied. I even liked that she was flirting a bit. It was cute. But, after reading DH, I can't stand her. What seems charming when you think that she and Snape are barely acquainted is intolerable when they are supposed to be friends. She's sort of like St. Peter, isn't she? When Snape is being tormented by a crowd, she's willing to step in, but isn't willing to own her friendship with him. I'm sure that's all just because JKR is trying to hide the secret from us, but it makes Lily look like a hypocrite and a terrible friend. Imagine if it were Hermione and Harry, and Hermione pretended not to be friends with Harry and instead flirted with Malfoy while Harry was being hung upside-down and pantsed. Montavilla47 From ceridwennight at hotmail.com Mon Sep 22 10:59:24 2008 From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:59:24 -0000 Subject: Snape's class (was Re: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184413 Potioncat: > Ah, but you see, I have teenagers at home who rattle my cage, push my > buttons and generally create chaos. I love them dearly and would never > use sarcasm against them. But that doesn't mean I don't have sarcastic > thoughts. So, by playing along with Snape, I can be sarcastic > viscariously. > > Snape, a mother's best friend, just ask Narcissa and Lily. Ceridwen: As a mom with teens past and present, I agree. The thoughts are there, but they are judiciously with-held. It's a vicarious pleasure to see it done in fiction. Fiction is the place for things like this to play out. I don't know if Snape meant it to happen, but I'm sure every student in the room was listening to this exchange and, hopefully, learning from it. It also may have solidified Harry's reputation for defense with the other students, since the exchange seemed to be on an equal footing. Since it was only the next year where Harry would be expected to defeat Voldemort, this would be important, in my opinion. Ceridwen. From bgrugin at yahoo.com Mon Sep 22 13:00:28 2008 From: bgrugin at yahoo.com (bgrugin) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:00:28 -0000 Subject: Snape's class (was Re: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184414 > Ceridwen: > As a mom with teens past and present, I agree. The thoughts are there, > but they are judiciously with-held. It's a vicarious pleasure to see > it done in fiction. Fiction is the place for things like this to play > out. > MusicalBetsy here: Yes, yes, yes - this is what makes me enjoy Fred and George and Ginny (and Hermione at times - remember the bird incident?) so much. While others really disliked them because they saw them as real people from real life who treated people meanly, I just enjoyed them as fictitious characters who did and said things that I would never do, but in context of a fictitious story were quite humorous. Ginny tended to do things that I might THINK about doing, but wouldn't - like the Zacharias Smith incident during quidditch - but it's so fun to have someone do it in a fictitious story. To me, making the story too much like real life is boring, and I don't really want to read that. I want to read about things that I would never get to do. I supppose that's why I like fantasy and science fiction books so much. I know others in this group don't agree, and that's certainly fine, but I say, bring on the sarcasm and the pranks and the mean things that other people deep down inside DO deserve - because if you don't do it in a fictitious story, when will you do it? Awww, I've got to have some fun somewhere...might as well be in a safe environment such as a work of fiction!! MusicalBetsy, who knowingly smiled every time F&G and Ginny and Snape were on the page...and who didn't analyze it too much.... From sweenlit at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 15:54:06 2008 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:54:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43e41d1e0809220854r760419f1g29fd04a3fa0266b5@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184415 Montevilla: I'm sure that's all just because JKR is trying to hide the secret from us, but it makes Lily look like a hypocrite and a terrible friend. Imagine if it were Hermione and Harry, and Hermione pretended not to be friends with Harry and instead flirted with Malfoy while Harry was being hung upside-down and pantsed. Lynda: Does it? Lily "puts up with" listening to Snape insult every other muggle-born witch/wizard than her. She turns her back on the trio for years, simply due to her friendship with Snape. She only turns from him when he publically insults her. Since Lily was in the series as Harry's mother, and the series was not focused on her or James, I did not really form an opinion of her until late on--everything about her is seen from the viewpoint of either her friends, family or acquaintances. My feelings about her are still somewhat neutral. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 22 16:14:18 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:14:18 -0000 Subject: Albus again/ Chapter 29 ???s/ Snape DADA / Albus Memory Charm / Snape DADA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184416 Catlady: > > My memory is awful. When did an Inferius pop up in front of our noses and we didn't recognize it? > > Zara: > DH. Most of us, anyway, did not realize that Bathilda was an animated corpse under the control of a Dark Wizard until Nagini came writing out of her neck (ick). > Carol responds: But was Bathilda's corpse an Inferius? My impression was that Nagini was inhabiting/possessing the corpse, able to beckon and walk clumsily but not to remove items from shelves, start a fire, etc. (not to mention clean house!) and, of course, she spoke only Parseltongue--not something an Inferius could do. I think that Nagini, not Voldemort, was controlling Bathilda's corpse, and the ruse worked only because Bathilda was very old and known to be senile. I don't think that an Inferius could have followed Hermione and Harry, recognizing them through their behavior (and perhaps Harry by his smell) despite the Polyjuice disguise and, later, the Invisibility Cloak, which Nagini's snake senses apparently enabled her to see through, and then lured them to Bathilda's house, keeping Harry with her and Hermione downstairs. Nagini, snake though she is, is a remarkably intelligent animal (wicked, of course, and connected to Voldemort through being a Horcrux, but able to think for herself, as Dumbledore pointed out when he first mentioned the possibility of her being a Horcrux and as we saw in OoP when she attacked Mr. Weasley in Harry's vision. Of course, Voldemort may have put some sort of spell on Bathilda's corpse to keep it from rotting, and the Aurors who found it discovered signs of (unspecified) Dark magic, but the corpse was not running around murdering people (or lying quietly in wait in a cold, dark place) after Nagini abandoned it. It's unclear whether she inhabited the corpse the whole time between Bathilda's death and Harry and Hermione's visit. Maybe she left it at night to hunt. She must have been under orders not to eat Bathilda for any reason (and probably she preferred live or fresh-killed prey in any case). The only Inferi we definitely encounter are the ones in the cave in HBP, which behave very differently from Nagini!Bathilda. Carol, for whom Nagini emerging from the neck of Bathilda's corpse was much more shocking, horrifying, and revolting than Harry's ordeal with the Inferi in HBP From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Mon Sep 22 16:19:31 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:19:31 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0809220854r760419f1g29fd04a3fa0266b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184417 > Montevilla: > > I'm sure that's all just because JKR is trying to hide the secret from > us, but it makes Lily look like a hypocrite and a terrible friend. Imagine > if it were Hermione and Harry, and Hermione pretended not to be > friends with Harry and instead flirted with Malfoy while Harry was > being hung upside-down and pantsed. > > Lynda: > > Does it? Lily "puts up with" listening to Snape insult every other > muggle-born witch/wizard than her. She turns her back on the trio for years, > simply due to her friendship with Snape. She only turns from him when he > publically > insults her. Magpie: I would imagine the response to that is that we don't see Lily put up with anything in canon. We more see scenes where Snape seems to be courting her favor, so that's what many readers remember. I would actually assume that Snape never insulted other Muggleborns in her presence--knowing Lily as we know now, if he ever did that she would have told him off (with good reason!). So it's more like she's just been privately disapproving with Snape's other friends. Their argument sounds like the first time she reveals that she knows he uses the word Mudblood elsewhere. Since James and Sirius attack Snape right off on the train, her turning her back on him could be on principle rather than loyalty to Snape. Snape comes out looking like quite an idiot on this score--how could he possibly not connect insulting other Mugglesborns with insulting Lily? But according to JKR he thought being a big bad DE would impress her. Is Lily supposed to be enjoying James' show because she already dislikes Snape? I would also agree wtih the idea that watching people get smacked down in fiction is satisfying, especially if it's something that wouldn't happen IRL. I think when there's a problem with it in the series it's often because there's a disagreement about who needs to be smacked down. I couldn't stand watching Ginny crash into Zach Smith, but I would have loved it if Zach put up an invisible shield so when Ginny tried to pull another one of her super cool Mary Sue smack downs she wound up in the hospital wing. Canon is, after all, not half as consistent on this matter as it sometimes seems to feel like it is. Some people who do this get righteously smacked down, some get a conspiratorial wink, some get a sort of "tisk tisk" head shake and some are a lesson in the way the world works. In the end it feels to me not so much like the author is making a point about it but just that she herself naturally comes up with these scenarios and therefore it comes up everywhere because everyone's coming out of the same head. When people don't do it they stand out, not the other way around. -m From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 22 16:46:11 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:46:11 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character ) In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0809220854r760419f1g29fd04a3fa0266b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184418 Lynda: > > Does it? Lily "puts up with" listening to Snape insult every other muggle-born witch/wizard than her. She turns her back on the trio for years, simply due to her friendship with Snape. She only turns from him when he publically insults her. Carol responds: This is one of those points on which people will never agree, but I'll state my views anyway. By "the Trio," I assume that you mean James, Sirius, and Remus, but, of course, it was really a tight friendship between James and Sirius, the two boys who (respectively) tripped and insulted Lily's best friend, Severus, on the Hogwarts Express before they even got to school, with Remus (their friend because he was a werewold--how cool!) and the tagalong sycophant Peter as members of the foursome about half the time. If Lily "turns her back" on MWPP, for example, refusing to sit by Sirius when the Sorting Hat makes her a Gryffindor, she has good reason. James and Sirius are troublemakers, Remus becomes the schools's most ineffectual Prefect (well, maybe Ron gives him a run for his money), and Peter is probably beneath her notice. Sirius ignores the girls who admire him for his looks; James shows off for everyone but especially Lily. He hexes people who annoy him "because he can," and he and Sirius sneak up on Severus and publicly bully and humiliate him, two on one. Now, granted, Lily says that Severus calls other Witches and Wizards "Mudblood" (though we never see him doing it), and he does use the term for Lily in a moment of torment and humiliation, to his lasting regret. He also has friends who use Dark Magic, but there's no evidence that he does it himself. She tells James that he's as bad as Severus is. Severus has been her friend since they were nine or ten; he's loved her all that time. James is "an arrogant toerag," a show-off and a bully. Exactly what Lily is supposed to see in him, or the foursome, I don't know. I don't think it's so much a matter of turning her back on them as of having no interest in them (at least until, against her will, she starts feeling a sexual attraction to the athletic and somehow charismatic James). Those boys ignored her until she became a Gryffindor and insulted and mistreated her best friend just because he exressed a desire to be in Slytherin, which he had been told was the House for brains (with Gryffindor, apparently, characterized as the House for brawn). *Of course* she would loyally stay by her old friend (though apparently not publicly--she seems to have associated more with girls, a la Cho) than hang around with a group of boys that included two self-described "arrogant little berks," a quietly ineffectual Prefect who never stopped and sometimes joined their mischief, and a simpering, apparently talentless nobody. I'm no fan of Lily, but I certainly understand why she wanted nothing to do with MWPP for her first five years (and perhaps even her sixth) at Hogwarts. The mystery is why she ever married James at all. Surely, the absence of prejudice against Muggle-borns was not sufficient reason to fall in love with him. Carol, wondering what Lily thought when she found out (no doubt post-Hogwarts) about her future husband's midnight adventures with a werewolf From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Sep 22 17:06:18 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 17:06:18 -0000 Subject: Albus again/ Chapter 29 ???s/ Snape DADA / Albus Memory Charm / Snape DADA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184419 > Carol responds: > But was Bathilda's corpse an Inferius? My impression was that Nagini > was inhabiting/possessing the corpse, able to beckon and walk clumsily > but not to remove items from shelves, start a fire, etc. (not to > mention clean house!) and, of course, she spoke only Parseltongue--not > something an Inferius could do. I think that Nagini, not Voldemort, > was controlling Bathilda's corpse, and the ruse worked only because > Bathilda was very old and known to be senile. Potioncat: Bathilda was a dead body being animated by a Dark Wizard. Having a snake inside made her a deluxe version, I suppose. I would not have wanted to be on the CSI team that evaluated her body. At any rate, it's close enough to an Inferius for me. I mean, I was right there with Harry and Hermione not even catching on that she was dead--of couse I couldn't smell the odor, and that might have tipped me off. It's sad though. Sounds like her house had been un-lived in for a while. Wasn't anyone checking on her? Maybe there was an enchantment on the house that caused visitors to forget to call. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 22 17:41:36 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 17:41:36 -0000 Subject: Nagini!Bathilda (Was: Albus again/ Chapter 29 ???s ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > > Carol responds: > > But was Bathilda's corpse an Inferius? My impression was that Nagini > > was inhabiting/possessing the corpse, able to beckon and walk clumsily > > but not to remove items from shelves, start a fire, etc. (not to > > mention clean house!) and, of course, she spoke only Parseltongue--not > > something an Inferius could do. I think that Nagini, not Voldemort, > > was controlling Bathilda's corpse, and the ruse worked only because > > Bathilda was very old and known to be senile. > > Potioncat: > > Bathilda was a dead body being animated by a Dark Wizard. Having a > snake inside made her a deluxe version, I suppose. I would not have > wanted to be on the CSI team that evaluated her body. > > At any rate, it's close enough to an Inferius for me. I mean, I was > right there with Harry and Hermione not even catching on that she was > dead--of couse I couldn't smell the odor, and that might have tipped me > off. > > It's sad though. Sounds like her house had been un-lived in for a > while. Wasn't anyone checking on her? Maybe there was an enchantment on > the house that caused visitors to forget to call. > Carol responds: I still think that Nagini was the animating/possessing force (Otherwise, how could a twelve-foot snake get inside the body of a little old woman?) and that Bathilda wasn't a normal Inferius (if an Inferius can be called "normal"!). I don't think that either Bathilda's body or Nagini herself was directly controlled by Voldemort. Nitpicking, maybe. As for people not acting on the spell, many if not most of the residents of Godric's Hollow were Muggles, and I suspect that the cottage had Muggle-repelling charms on it. Her old neighbors, the Dumbledores, were long gone. The Potters (except for Harry, who didn't live there) were dead. It's not clear how many Witches and Wizards remained in Godric's Hollow. Harry recognized a few family names on the gravestones, but many of the Wizarding families seemed to have died out in the male line. We can figure out a bit of the timeline from Rita Skeeter's interview with Bathilda, which took place after DD's death in June but before the excerpts from her forthcoming biography came out around mid-July. (Oh, the advantages of writing with a Quick Quotes Quill!). Bathilda could have died (been brutally murdered, I mean) any time within the five- or six-month time frame between June/July and Christmas. If Nagini!Bathilda routinely wandered around at night watching the graveyard and the neighborhood of the Potters' cottage, the people who knew of her existence might have thought that she was alive but nearly blind and deaf and completely off her rocker. The smell and her behavior would probably be sufficient to deter Wizarding visitors. Carol, just guessing and not really wanting to know the source of the smell! From tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com Mon Sep 22 17:44:54 2008 From: tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 17:44:54 -0000 Subject: Snape's class (was Re: HBP chapters 21-23 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184421 > Alla: > > LOL, wait a second. So what you are saying is that when Snape is > asking one thing and Harry is answering the exact same thing that > Snape asked and Snape sneers at him, then what it really means is > that Snape **was asking different question and Harry was supposed to > read his mind and answer that other question?** Sarah: That's exactly what I think Snape is doing. Or in other words, it is a trick question. The question is how to tell the difference. If one was transparent and one wasn't, that would probably be my first tip-off. So I think Harry is answering the question accurately and to the point. There might be many more ways to tell the difference, but the most readily apparent would probably be the transparency. If Harry had read between the lines of the question and perceived that he was supposed to discuss the different natures of the Inferius and the ghost, how they get created, etc. Snape could have given him a hard time about not answering the actual question asked. There is no right answer. From sweenlit at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 22:16:00 2008 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:16:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily (was Complimenting a character ) In-Reply-To: References: <43e41d1e0809220854r760419f1g29fd04a3fa0266b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43e41d1e0809221516y618cb6sce1b3dc08823cc79@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184422 Carol: I'm no fan of Lily, but I certainly understand why she wanted nothing to do with MWPP for her first five years (and perhaps even her sixth) at Hogwarts. The mystery is why she ever married James at all. Surely, the absence of prejudice against Muggle-borns was not sufficient reason to fall in love with him. Carol, wondering what Lily thought when she found out (no doubt post-Hogwarts) about her future husband's midnight adventures with a werewolf Lynda: I'm neither a fan nor a hater of Lily As for friendships with former schoolmates after graduation, however, what I have found personally is that people change after school we ourselves as well as others. My closest female friend and I knew each other all through school and until after she left school and went to work (she did not graduate--health problems) we barely spoke to one another. We did not become friends until six years ago or so. My other close friend from school and I knew each other only from shared classes. We never spoke a word to one another until we graduated and only met once again recently when I had the chance to finally offer my condolences to him on the loss of his partner. James must have really turned on the charm, and I have a feeling that although we are not privy to the insults and such offered by Snape on behalf of all muggle borns must have gotten to Lily finally and the bit that we do see through the pensieve be only the last straw. Does that make Lily less than what she was before? Perhaps. It is certainly a very human trait that she shows in walking away from what she percieves as a relationship that is going nowhere. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 23 00:07:27 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:07:27 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0809220854r760419f1g29fd04a3fa0266b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184423 > Montevilla: > > I'm sure that's all just because JKR is trying to hide the secret from > us, but it makes Lily look like a hypocrite and a terrible friend. Imagine > if it were Hermione and Harry, and Hermione pretended not to be > friends with Harry and instead flirted with Malfoy while Harry was > being hung upside-down and pantsed. > > Lynda: > > Does it? Lily "puts up with" listening to Snape insult every other > muggle-born witch/wizard than her. Montavilla47: Really? Show me one other muggle-born witch or wizard that Snape insults by calling them a "mudblood," because I don't remember a single one. I agree with Magpie. The two characters we see in the Prince's Tale? that Lily would have certainly told Snape off had he used the word in her presence as soon as he did it. The Snape we saw would have taken her words to heart. I don't see in any chapter of any book the Snape JKR describes in interviews as thinking that Lily would have been impressed by his becoming a big, bad, DE. He must be there, but I just don't see him. Lynda: > She turns her back on the trio for years, > simply due to her friendship with Snape. Montavilla47: Or else she simply disliked them until her hormones kicked in and she became sexually attracted to James. After all, don't we see the same thing with Lavender and Ron? Although they are in the same year and house, they barely talk to each other until sixth year, when suddenly they're making out in the common room. Lynda: > She only turns from him when he publically > insults her. Montavilla47: True. But if you read that scene in SWM, she acts during her her feisty scolding as if Snape were some random student that James is picking on?rather than her best friend. It's quite possible to read it?as most readers did?thinking that she's no more acquainted with Snape than Harry is with, say Terry Boot or Daphne Greengrass. Which is wonderfully misleading for the reader. But someone who was watching her best friend being treated like that would act very differently. Unless she was deliberately trying to distance herself from him. Which I could see, since in their previous interaction, she was already pushing him away. Okay, fine. But if you're going to break up with someone, break up with them. Don't string them along and then use their public humiliation as an opportunity to show the alpha male how feisty you are. From sweenlit at gmail.com Tue Sep 23 05:17:28 2008 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 22:17:28 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: References: <43e41d1e0809220854r760419f1g29fd04a3fa0266b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43e41d1e0809222217pc2ac80esb936f67bd6c16e9a@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184424 Montavilla47: Really? Show me one other muggle-born witch or wizard that Snape insults by calling them a "mudblood," because I don't remember a single one. Lynda: >From Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows p. 676, American edition: (Snape) "No ---- listen, I didn't mean --" (Lily)"-- to call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?" Here's the thing. Nothing in the way that Snape treats any witch or wizard of muggle birth is what I would call pleasant. He isn't even pleasant to any of the students at Hogwarts, nor to most of the others we see him associate with, but from the way he is spoken of by characters throughout the text of seven books, he did save his greatest contempt for those wizards and witches who were muggle born or showed what he considered to be a lack of magical ability. That's direct enough textual evidence for my point. It's like in another series I read--for several books in the series a character makes a fairly arrogant-sounding claim whenever he has a little too much to drink, with no follow-up to indicate any veracity to it. No one he knows mentions that this character has any skill at this sport. There are no medals or awards in his office, etc.--so in the latest book, it turns out that his "drunken boast" is anything but that. He really does have the skill he boasts about whenever he gets drunk. Its simply not one that is used in everyday life. But it is possible, through the series to find specific places where he mentions it. Just like when reading HP it is possible to see the manner in which Snape treats wizards and witches of muggle birth--which matches up to what Lily claims before she turns her back on him and eventually starts dating James. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leahstill at hotmail.com Tue Sep 23 07:32:30 2008 From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:32:30 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0809222217pc2ac80esb936f67bd6c16e9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184425 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lynda Cordova" wrote: > >. > > Lynda: > >> Here's the thing. Nothing in the way that Snape treats any witch or wizard > of muggle birth is what I would call pleasant. He isn't even pleasant to any > of the students at Hogwarts, nor to most of the others we see him associate > with, but from the way he is spoken of by characters throughout the text of > seven books, he did save his greatest contempt for those wizards and witches > who were muggle born or showed what he considered to be a lack of magical > ability. That's direct enough textual evidence for my point. > Leah: As you say, Snape is not particularly 'pleasant' to any of his students. I can't however think of an example of other characters saying that he is particularly unpleasant to Muggleborns. I might have forgotten of course - what comments were you thinking of? We don't see Snape teaching any classes except Harry's, so we only see him from Harry's point of view. In that class, Snape is unpleasant to Harry, a half-blood, Hermione, a Muggleborn and Ron and Neville, purebloods. We don't see him being unpleasant in the same way to any of the other students, including Dean, who is I think a Muggleborn. Neville needs to learn to control and master his magic; his own family have treated him very unpleasantly in an attempt to bring his magic out in the first place, and I think Snape is doing the same. As to Hermione, Snape doesn't start off treating her unpleasantly. She is interfering in his first class, waving her hand around and standing up trying to answer questions which weren't directed at her or even directed at the whole class. Snape just tells her to sit down. Unpleasantness to her later is related to her being one of the Trio,persistant rule breaking, and annoying behaviour in class. I'm not saying Snape deals with this correctly, but I don't see his treatment arising out of her blood status. Young Severus tells Lily that being Muggleborn won't make a difference, even though he clearly knows that it does to some people. Headmaster Snape tells Phineas Nigellus not to use the word Mudblood. If Lily is correct that Teenage Severus did use the M word to other Muggleborns, this seems more like an aberration to fit in with other Slytherins than his consistent viewpoint. Snape does value magical ability and wants to see it used properly, not just through rote learning, but I don't see any evidence besides Lily's comment that he cares how the magical ability was derived. Leah From kersberg at chello.nl Tue Sep 23 13:15:07 2008 From: kersberg at chello.nl (kamion53) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:15:07 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184426 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > >----> > I'm no fan of Lily, but I certainly understand why she wanted nothing > to do with MWPP for her first five years (and perhaps even her sixth) > at Hogwarts. The mystery is why she ever married James at all. Surely, > the absence of prejudice against Muggle-borns was not sufficient > reason to fall in love with him. > > Carol, wondering what Lily thought when she found out (no doubt > post-Hogwarts) about her future husband's midnight adventures with a > werewolf > Kamion I think it is in Prisoner of Azkaban, that Lupin tells Harry his mother and father started to get out together, when they were made HeadBoy and HeadGirl, which is the 7th year. Now as mysterious as it is that Lily falls for the charms of James Potter Dumbledore's reasons for making James Potter HeadBoy are. Unlesh we include ruthless manipulation of course James Potter was a shining student and therefor with his dislike of Dark Arts a welcome recrute for the Order of the Phoenix. But bribing him into this by making Head-Mischief and Head-Arrogance HeadBoy doesn't sound as responsible schoolpolicy to me. In retrospect it looks that Dumbledore was willing to have the whole of Hogwarts burned to the ground to block Voldemort. This may sound extreme, but having teachers employing with zero pedagogic skills ( Snape, Threlawney, Binns, Hagrid )says a lot of how important he education thought. I think he was not below matchmaking too. There is no evidence in the canon that James Potter behaved much different from the first six years in the 7th year, only the remark that Lily deflated the size of his head a bit. I really wonder how solid a base that would be for a long lasting marriage. I even think that under normal circumstances it would have ended after 4 or 5 years, they only did not get that many years. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 23 13:41:56 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:41:56 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184427 Lea: Young Severus tells Lily that being Muggleborn won't make a > difference, even though he clearly knows that it does to some > people. Alla: Yes, I see it as an evidence that he likes Lily and lies to her. IMO of course. Leah: >Headmaster Snape tells Phineas Nigellus not to use the word > Mudblood. If Lily is correct that Teenage Severus did use the M word > to other Muggleborns, this seems more like an aberration to fit in > with other Slytherins than his consistent viewpoint. Snape does > value magical ability and wants to see it used properly, not just > through rote learning, but I don't see any evidence besides Lily's > comment that he cares how the magical ability was derived. Alla: Since to me Lily's comment is an evidence a plenty, I believe that his using M words to other Muggleborns is definitely his ugly viewpoint, but I would say as much, I do believe that he changed in that regard. I think him telling Phineas not to use M word is a strong evidence of that indeed, but when he was young? I think since that first comment to Lily, I think he could not stand Muggleborns, even if it is implied and the only evidence is his conversations with Lily and I think Lily simply had it. I know I would have had enough at some point, no matter how much I loved the person as a friend, if he was calling people of my etnicity ugly names for years, I know at some point I would have told that person to take a hike and never ever approach me again. In fact, I blame Lily for NOT breaking up with Snape earlier. She must have really liked him indeed. JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 23 14:05:47 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:05:47 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184428 Montavilla47: I'm sure that's all just because JKR is trying to hide the secret from us, but it makes Lily look like a hypocrite and a terrible friend. Imagine if it were Hermione and Harry, and Hermione pretended not to be friends with Harry and instead flirted with Malfoy while Harry was being hung upside-down and pantsed. Alla: Well, I suggest we change your hypothetical just a little bit. How about instead of Malfoy we put there any other Slytherin, but somebody who does not call Muggleborns Mudbloods, if such Slytherins exist of course. I believe the analogy will be more accurate then. And we will have Harry going around calling every other Muggleborn - Mudblood and we will have him call Hermione that. So, to answer this hypothetical, if Hermione will want to stop being Harry's friend after that. Yeah, I will definitely support her on that. I do not think anybody should put up with stuff like that, not ever. JMO, Alla From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Tue Sep 23 14:25:39 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:25:39 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184429 > Alla: > > Since to me Lily's comment is an evidence a plenty, I believe that > his using M words to other Muggleborns is definitely his ugly > viewpoint, but I would say as much, I do believe that he changed in > that regard. > > I think him telling Phineas not to use M word is a strong evidence of > that indeed, but when he was young? I think since that first comment > to Lily, I think he could not stand Muggleborns, even if it is > implied and the only evidence is his conversations with Lily and I > think Lily simply had it. > > I know I would have had enough at some point, no matter how much I > loved the person as a friend, if he was calling people of my etnicity > ugly names for years, I know at some point I would have told that > person to take a hike and never ever approach me again. > > In fact, I blame Lily for NOT breaking up with Snape earlier. She > must have really liked him indeed. Magpie: That's the way I see it too. I think Snape was already indoctrinated into the Slytherin mindset, but wants to make an exception of Lily from the very beginning--not unusual, really. I think SWM was the one and only time he let Lily see that side of him, but that Lily heard about and so knew about it before then. She was maybe able to stay a little bit in denial until that moment. I don't think he ever referred to a Muggleborn as a Mudblood in front of Lily and she was able to hold on because of that, but once he did it in front of her (and to her) she hit him with the fact that she knew this wasn't unusual for him. Unfortunately for me, since there's so little focus on changing this mindset I wind up taking Snape's comment to Nigellus as being more about his own bad associations with the word than any major repulsion to the ideas. It's not that I think he's actively prejudiced against Muggleborns in canon or anything. It's just that the themes of the books were personal. The bigotry themes are more about Voldemort rather than Voldemort's beliefs being used to focus on education about bigotry. -m From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Sep 23 15:13:07 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:13:07 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184430 > Montavilla47: > > I'm sure that's all just because JKR is trying to hide the secret from > us, but it makes Lily look like a hypocrite and a terrible friend. > Imagine > if it were Hermione and Harry, and Hermione pretended not to be > friends with Harry and instead flirted with Malfoy while Harry was > being hung upside-down and pantsed. > > Alla: > > Well, I suggest we change your hypothetical just a little bit. How > about instead of Malfoy we put there any other Slytherin, but > somebody who does not call Muggleborns Mudbloods, if such Slytherins > exist of course. I believe the analogy will be more accurate then. Potioncat: I think you're both right. I have to say, I've never really thought about Lily's behavior in this light. She isn't acting like a friend. I can't imagine Hermione would smile at any aspect of the teasing if it had been Ron or Harry in the air. Even at the point she and Ron were most estranged--and she certainly wouldn't flirt with the tormenter. On one level, I accept it as canon. Severus and Lily were friends until SWM brought issues to a head, and the friendship ended---to Snape's lasting regret. On the other level---this friendship doesn't work--or the scenes don't. I don't get why JKR had Severus suddenly yell, "...a dirty Mudblood like her..." nor why JKR wrote Lily as if she didn't know Severus. I don't understand why Lily's close friends knew about the friendship, but no one else seems to. For example, SWM might have made more sense if Lily had been in a group of Muggleborns who came to Severus's defense and he called them dirty mudbloods before he knew Lily was with them. Or if they came to back up Lily and Severus yelled at the group. (followed later by "But I didn't mean you, Lily.") Just to be clear, I think the problems we all see in either Severus's behavior or Lily's is that JKR didn't fully develop the story. I'm looking at Severus and Lily as characters on a page, not as real life people. (Because sometimes we discuss the characters as if they were real.) JKR created Snape as a very unpleasant fellow. At some point he does buy into the Slytherin Pureblood superiority ideas, although he may think "Lily isn't the same as the others." I believe a character could feel that way. I don't get his motivation for the sudden attack on Lily. I don't understand Lily's motivation for maintaining the friendship as long as she did, given what we see on the page. and I find it surprising that Lily might have developed a romantic interest in him if things had gone differently. I would like to have seen a few "happy" moments at Hogwarts to get that arc. Don't get me wrong. I see the spark of good in Severus and I can understand how Lily could see the same virtues. A very credible friendship could be written. I just don't think the canon one is it. From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Tue Sep 23 15:45:41 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:45:41 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184431 > Potioncat: > I think you're both right. I have to say, I've never really thought > about Lily's behavior in this light. She isn't acting like a friend. I > can't imagine Hermione would smile at any aspect of the teasing if it > had been Ron or Harry in the air. Even at the point she and Ron were > most estranged--and she certainly wouldn't flirt with the tormenter. > > > On one level, I accept it as canon. Severus and Lily were friends until > SWM brought issues to a head, and the friendship ended---to Snape's > lasting regret. > > On the other level---this friendship doesn't work--or the scenes don't. > I don't get why JKR had Severus suddenly yell, "...a dirty Mudblood > like her..." nor why JKR wrote Lily as if she didn't know Severus. I > don't understand why Lily's close friends knew about the friendship, > but no one else seems to. > > For example, SWM might have made more sense if Lily had been in a group > of Muggleborns who came to Severus's defense and he called them dirty > mudbloods before he knew Lily was with them. Or if they came to back up > Lily and Severus yelled at the group. (followed later by "But I didn't > mean you, Lily.") Magpie: For me, the way Lily is acting is the one thing that does explain Snape's outburst. I mean, the fact that he calls her a Mudblood shows that this is his problem--she's not to blame for him being bigoted in that scene. But the fact that she is clearly (imo) flirting with James while he torments Snape? If I were in Snape's position that would have a possible deal-breaker for me as a friend. Not only is he humiliated in front of everyone but then his friend finds it funny and uses the situation to flirt with the tormenter. I'm not justifying Snape's use of the word Mudblood but I can sympathize with his feelings there. In retrospect Lily seems a lot colder. It makes her decision to drop Snape after what he says to be an intellectual one, which I think it was. She doesn't seem incredibly hurt by what he says and has a response all ready. This has been coming for a while and now he's crossed the line she set out for herself and cuts him off. It seems like at that point it would be a relief to her--which makes it hard to believe this stuff about how she loved him and could have been interested in him romantically. It seems to me more like Lily cared about Snape when they were young but had outgrown him long before SWM because they didn't really click, they were just the only wizards in their area and Lily was sympathetic to Snape's problems. Years later it seems like Snape remembers that scene for his own bad behavior. When he thinks of Lily he still thinks of her as this loving, wonderful girl and not the one hiding a smile at watching him set upon. -m From sweenlit at gmail.com Tue Sep 23 16:02:54 2008 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:02:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: References: <43e41d1e0809222217pc2ac80esb936f67bd6c16e9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43e41d1e0809230902q371df565ta20bd041dd71b907@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184432 Lynda: I'm thinking of the attitudes of others toward Snape. It seems to me that he is regarded, generally speaking, as one who has a less than friendly attitude toward those of muggle birth. I have always thought that with regards to Lily, he was willing to try to reassure her that she was no different than any other magic user and even tried (unsuccessfully) to believe that himself. Of course, not being pureblood himself, his own prejudices would have affected his own self esteem. I already cited the passage that was most relevant to back up my thoughts. As I said, it's simply an attitude I find throughout the books. I know that some people will claim it's due to the people we see talking about Snape, but as in any other book, that's what we've got. That's what the author wrote. From that pov, not another. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 23 19:36:29 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 19:36:29 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184433 Carol earlier: > > I'm no fan of Lily, but I certainly understand why she wanted nothing to do with MWPP for her first five years (and perhaps even her sixth) at Hogwarts. The mystery is why she ever married James at all. Surely, > > the absence of prejudice against Muggle-borns was not sufficient > > reason to fall in love with him. > > > > Carol, wondering what Lily thought when she found out (no doubt > > post-Hogwarts) about her future husband's midnight adventures with a > > werewolf > > > Kamion > > I think it is in Prisoner of Azkaban, that Lupin tells Harry his mother and father started to get out together, when they were made HeadBoy and HeadGirl, which is the 7th year. Carol: Yes, I'm aware that they got together in seventh year and that they were Head Boy and Head Girl, which would place them in each other's company rather frequently (and force James to take on some new responsibilities instead of fooling around all the time). I'm also aware that James stopped hexing people (other than Severus Snape) because they annoyed him, and only hexed Severus (who gave him a run for his money) when Lily wasn't aroung--or, if Snape in HBP isn't exaggerating, when he had backup from his three friends! But that's still no indication of what she saw in him. A kindred spirit (she liked mischief, too)? An athlete who messed up his hair just for her? A defender of Muggle-borns and opponent of the Dark Arts (despite bullying people using mere partially Dark hexes and jinxes at least till the end of his fifth year and possibly in his sixth as well)? I blame it on pheromones. :-) Or on what JKR finds appealing and attractive. She considers Ginny spunky, after all, and Ginny resembles James in her tendency to hex people (primarily Zacharias Smith) because they annoy her. (I guess that she and I simply don't agree on what constitutes attractiveness!) Kamion: > Now as mysterious as it is that Lily falls for the charms of James Potter Dumbledore's reasons for making James Potter HeadBoy are [even more mysterious]. Carol: I agree, assuming that I'm correct in my bracketed addition. If not, please accept my apologies for the emendation. Kamion: > Unlesh we include ruthless manipulation of course James Potter was a shining student and therefor with his dislike of Dark Arts a welcome recrute for the Order of the Phoenix. But bribing him into this by making Head-Mischief and Head-Arrogance HeadBoy doesn't sound as responsible schoolpolicy to me. > > In retrospect it looks that Dumbledore was willing to have the whole of Hogwarts burned to the ground to block Voldemort. This may sound extreme, but having teachers employing with zero pedagogic skills (Snape, Threlawney, Binns, Hagrid )says a lot of how important he education thought. Carol responds: I agree that Dumbledore's motives for making James Head Boy, especially when he hadn't been a Prefect, are mysterious. (Gryffindor favoritism, maybe? Or, as you say, giving power and authority to opponents of Voldemort?) Granted, James was popular (at least among Gryffindors), chiefly for his athletic prowess, and popularity is an asset for a Head Boy (though not a prerequisite, given that Percy also held the position!). I suspect that some of James's perceived popularity in OoP was the result of the unwillingness of other students to be hexed by him, but we don't have sufficient evidence to know how any of his fellow students except the other Marauders and Severus Snape actually felt about him. (Lily seems ambivalent, as if her hormones and her better judgment are in conflict.) Possibly, DD wanted someone whom the other Prefects and the students in general would respect (in the sense of doing what that student said). He clearly didn't want a Slytherin as Head Boy at that point, and Remus Lupin had shown himself to be an ineffectual Prefect, so he was out of the running. We know nothing about the Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw candidates for the position. We do know that James, like Lily, was a favorite of McGonagall and that he did well in her class. Lupin and Black state that James was the best in the school at everything he did, but they're biased in his favor. We get no indication from Slughorn that James was any good at Potions (in contrast to Lily and Severus), and Severus's detailed answers in DADA indicate that he was exceptional in that subject, too. All we know from James (or Sirius) is that they thought that the exam was easy. They could be right, or their attitude could simply reflect their usual arrogance. (Of course, they would get the werewolf questions right. Odd that Wormtail wouldn't--unless he's just playing dumb!) At any rate, I think that "the best in school at everything they did" is an exaggeration based on spectacular success in Transfiguration and, in James's case, Quidditch, with no indication of inadequacy in any subjects to detract from that reputation. But, clearly, they weren't the only bright students in their year, and Lupin and Black clearly underestimate Severus Snape, who was better than James at Potions and quite possibly DADA, as well. To get back to Dumbledore, he does seem at times to put the defeat of Voldemort ahead of the education of his students. (At least he doesn't hire LV as a teacher!) I agree that Trelawney and Hagrid, both protected persons, have "zero pedagogic skills" (at least their subjects are not important academically), but I disagree that the same can be said of Snape. He's an expert in both his fields, and students do learn in his classes. Even Harry and Ron managed E's on the Potions OWL, and if they paid attention, they'd learn a lot more. (Hermione thrives in Snape's classes dislike his view of her as "an insufferable know-it-all.") Granted, Neville doesn't, but who could be patient with a student who starts off his very first class melting his lab partner's cauldron and is still melting cauldrons into his fourth or fifth year? He's sarcstic and he sometimes docks (or fails to grant) points unfairly, but he knows his subjects (and Dumbledore has other excellent reasons for keeping him on the staff). Binns, I agree, should be sent off to teach some imaginary class or something. It's unfair to the students to keep him on the staff. As Harry reflects at some point, History of Magic could be interesting in the hands of a competent teacher. In Dumbledore's defense, until his last year as headmaster, he has almost no opportunity to hire a competent DADA instructor. He does his best with Lupin and the real Moody, not knowing that he's been undermined in the second case, and he finally gives the position to Snape in HBP, hiring another knowledgeable Potions Master to take his place, but the dwindling supply of DADA teachers makes it harder and harder to find a good one. (He's reserving Snape, I'm sure, until the last possible year.) But the other core subjects--Transfiguration, Charms, Herbology, and Potions--are all taught by experts during Harry's six years at Hogwarts (and his sixth-year teachers for those classes are all retained by Snape during his brief tenure as Headmaster). IOW, Dumbledore makes sure that the subjects that matter most (except DADA, which is partially out of his control because of the jinx that LV placed on it) are taught by highly competent teachers. Even Snape, hired at twenty-two, is a veteran teacher by the time Harry comes to Hogwarts. (We in Muggleland may not approve of his methods, but the WW doesn't seem to mind, and most students (e.g. Ernie Macmillan) learn what he teaches. At any rate, I'm sure that you were exaggerating for effect in stating that DD was "willing to see Hogwarts burn to the ground to block Voldemort," but you do seem to regard his "ruthless manipulation" as more extensive than I do. I think that he did value the education of his students but left it largely in the hands of the Heads of Houses (not coincidentally in charge of the core subjects), but he was also concerned with defeating Voldemort (and protecting certain people who were likely to be used or victimized by him, notably Trelawney and Hagrid). Snape, a competent teacher, valued spy, and secret protector of Harry Potter, is another matter altogether. (Binns, I agree, there's no excuse for. Chalk him up to JKR's whimsy.) To get back to James as Head Boy, I suspect that Dumbledore, like JKR, felt that Gryffindor values were needed in times of crisis, which the rise of Voldemort certainly was, and James, for better or worse, exemplified Gryffindor values. Carol, noting that Dumbledore, for all his manipulativeness, is himself manipulated by JKR From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Sep 23 19:36:53 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 19:36:53 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0809230902q371df565ta20bd041dd71b907@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184434 > Lynda: > I already cited the passage that was most relevant to back up my thoughts. > As I said, it's simply an attitude I find throughout the books. I know that > some people will claim it's due to the people we see talking about Snape, > but as in any other book, that's what we've got. That's what the author > wrote. From that pov, not another. Potioncat: The passage you cited earlier shows that young Severus used Mudblood and must have treated Muggleborns differently. Canon states it in a way that I can't deny. But I've never seen anything in canon that indicated Professor Snape discriminated against Muggleborns. I don't mean I'm discounting a character's comments because of PoV, but rather, I don't recall anything. The only non-Pureblood I can remember discussing Snape was Hagrid--and Hagrid seemed to view him with respect. Ron said in SS/PS that the twins said Snape favored Slytherin. Well, that's true, but that doesn't show he singles out Muggleborns. Other than in the rose garden during the Ball, I don't think we ever see Snape deal with other students. I can't really think of any canon that shows his attitude at all. I'll second an earlier post that indicates he doesn't seem to treat Dean Thomas badly, nor does he pick on Hermione. She gets the best marks in the class. (Yes, he has picked on Hermione, but not separate from her misadventures with Harry.) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 23 20:41:20 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 20:41:20 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184435 Alla wrote: > > > > Since to me Lily's comment is an evidence a plenty, I believe that his using M words to other Muggleborns is definitely his ugly viewpoint, but I would say as much, I do believe that he changed in that regard. > > > > I think him telling Phineas not to use M word is a strong evidence of that indeed, but when he was young? I think since that first comment to Lily, I think he could not stand Muggleborns, even if it is implied and the only evidence is his conversations with Lily and I think Lily simply had it. ,snip> Magpie replied: > That's the way I see it too. I think Snape was already indoctrinated into the Slytherin mindset, but wants to make an exception of Lily from the very beginning--not unusual, really. I think SWM was the one and only time he let Lily see that side of him, but that Lily heard about and so knew about it before then. I don't think he ever referred to a Muggleborn as a Mudblood in front of Lily and she was able to hold on because of that, but once he did it in front of her (and to her) she hit him with the fact that she knew this wasn't unusual for him. Carol responds: "Knew"? Or assumed? It's not a *fact* that such behavior is not unusual for him if there's no evidence to back it up. It's just an assumption on her part and yours. Obviously, we all interpret these scenes in our own way, and I'm not saying that you're wrong, only that I see it differently. For me, since Lily's accusation is not supported by any canon evidence and she retained his friendship up to the point when he called *her* a "Mudblood," I see no reason to believe that he routinely used it. I agree that he didn't do so in front of her or she'd have ended the friendship then and there. Possibly, she once heard that he'd used the term and confronted him. ("Mary Whateshername told me that you called her a Mudblood. Is that true?") Having done it once or a few times, he could hardly deny having used the term and remains silent. But we see no examples of his actually doing so and therefore have no gauge but our own assumptions to determine to our own satisfaction to what extent he believed and espoused the Pure-Blood supremacy doctrine. We *do* know that he hated the two Muggles of his acquaintance but did not extend that hatred to Lily, and we can deduce that he was self-conscious and defensive about his status as a Half-Blood based on the nickname Half-Blood Prince (which I think he applied to himself for his own comfort and consolation). But that very awareness that he, a Half-Blood, was as talented as any Pure-Blood (and that his friend Lily, a Muggle-born, was also bright and talented) would, I think, have worked against the prejudice with which he was daily confronted in Slytherin House. (His HoH Slughorn's inclusion of a few chosen Muggle-borns in the Slug Club would also have worked to counter the influence of his fellow Slytherins, such as Avery and Mulciber, at least until Lily ended their friendship. And even then, I suspect that he didn't wholeheartedly subscribe to the DE ethic, at least not publicly, or Sirius Black would have known that he became a Death Eater.) I also see no reason to believe that he hated Muggle-borns or *lied* to Lily, as Alla says, when he said as a child that being a Muggle-born wouldn't make any difference. The hesitation suggests that he thought it *might* make a difference to some people, but since he thinks and hopes that Lily can get into Slytherin with him, he clearly doesn't realize how widespread the prejudice is, especially among Slytherins, and that Muggle-borns simply are not admitted to Slytherin (no doubt per Salazar Slytherin's explicit instructions). And, again, he thinks that Slytherin is the House for brains, where both he and Lily belong. Magpie wrote: > Unfortunately for me, since there's so little focus on changing this mindset I wind up taking Snape's comment to Nigellus as being more about his own bad associations with the word than any major repulsion to the ideas. It's not that I think he's actively prejudiced against Muggleborns in canon or anything. It's just that the themes of the books were personal. The bigotry themes are more about Voldemort rather than Voldemort's beliefs being used to focus on education about bigotry. Carol responds: there can't be any focus on Snape's changing his mindset since his motives have to remain hidden until "the "Prince's Tale," in which there's only room for memories that relate to Lily or otherwise help Harry to understand that Snape is helping and protecting him. I see no reason not to extend his aversion to the word "Mudblood" beyond his personal experience to the implications of the word. If he ever wholeheartedly believed in Pure-blood supremacy (and I don't see how he could, being a Half-Blood himself), or at least in "Mudblood" inferiority, Lily excepted, I think he lost that belief when he saw what it led to. Refusal to use the word "Mudblood" as an adult would be part of his opposition to Voldemort. He certainly never uses it in Harry's hearing, even when they're alone. And telling Phineas Nigellus, a Pure-blood supremacist (or the portrait of one) seems to me to have no reference to anything but Phineas's own behavior and ideology. In essence, Headmaster Snape is telling a subordinate (a portrait sworn to obey him) that he won't tolerate that particular word. And it's interesting that the Muggle-born he's protecting from an insult she'll never hear is that insufferable know-it-all, Hermione Granger. Obviously, we all have our own views on the matter, but I take the evidence here at face value. It's the word itself, and Phineas's use of it, that Headmaster Snape is objecting to. It's not just about Lily any more. It's about opposition to Voldemort and everything that he stands for, even if that means protecting Harry only so that he can become a "pig to the slaughter" instead of protecting him at all costs because he's Lily's son and he doesn't want her to have died in vain; even if it means risking detection by using Sectumsempra on a Death Eater's hand to save the life of Remus Lupin. It means watching people die only if he cannot save them. At any rate, in a court of law, one person's accusation against another must be backed up by solid evidence. I read accusations of one character by another in the same light. There must be evidence to back up the first character's charge for me to take it seriously. And the only evidence we have is that young Snape eventually joined the Death Eaters. We have no evidence that he himself ever used the term "Mudblood" except in SWM--itself sufficient reason for him never to say it again. For that matter, we have no evidence (or even any accusation) that he himself used Dark Magic, only that his friends Mulciber and Avery did so. I agree that the motives in this book (unless we count DD's greater good, counterbalanced by his affection for Harry) are personal. We see that not only in Snape but in Harry and Ron and Hermione and Narcissa and Draco and the Weasleys and Sirius Black and Wormtail and just about every other character whose motivations we're allowed to see. But that doesn't mean that motivations that begin on the personal level remain there or that an aversion to the word "Mudblood" that began with the worst moment of Snape's tormented life never extended beyond those personal associations. He would think about Lily and why she hated the word and extend it beyond Lily to others, including Hermione (whom he doesn't even like) just as he extends his anti-Voldemort principles to actively saving or trying to save what lives he can, not only Draco's and Dumbledore's but Katie Bell's and Remus Lupin's (Lupin hates him and thinks the worst of him, but Snape goes out on a limb to save him nonetheless. I'm quite sure that he would have saved Charity Burbage had it been possible.) Carol, imagining Dead!Snape seeking out Dead!Charity in the afterlife to explain and apologize From sweenlit at gmail.com Tue Sep 23 21:27:06 2008 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:27:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: References: <43e41d1e0809230902q371df565ta20bd041dd71b907@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43e41d1e0809231427q3e7e8a2fo7b6239deda3fe6ab@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184436 Potioncat: I've never seen anything in canon that indicated Professor Snape discriminated against Muggleborns. I don't mean I'm discounting a character's comments because of PoV, but rather, I don't recall anything. The only non-Pureblood I can remember discussing Snape was Hagrid--and Hagrid seemed to view him with respect. Lynda: Professor Snape treated everyone with pretty much the same disdain and lack of respect. Blood status does not seem to have mattered. When discussing Lily, however, the discussion needs to be kept to his school days. Or prior to. And as a child, he showed supreme disrespect for both muggles and muggleborns. Lynda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 23 21:54:23 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:54:23 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184437 Lynda wrote: > > > > As I said, it's simply an attitude I find throughout the books. I know that some people will claim it's due to the people we see talking about Snape, but as in any other book, that's what we've got. That's what the author wrote. From that pov, not another. > Potioncat replied: > I've never seen anything in canon that indicated Professor Snape discriminated against Muggleborns. I don't mean I'm discounting a character's comments because of PoV, but rather, I don't recall anything. The only non-Pureblood I can remember discussing Snape was Hagrid--and Hagrid seemed to view him with respect. Carol responds: And don't forget Dumbledore, a Half-Blood, who trusts Severus Snape completely. (Not counting withholding certain information from him, as he also does with Harry.) McGonagall treats him with respect as a colleague and even follows his lead regarding Lockhart in CoS (before she learns about his background as a former DE. I'm sure that if he'd ever used the word "Mudblood" in her presence, even as a student, her reaction would be wholly different. Potioncat: > Ron said in SS/PS that the twins said Snape favored Slytherin. Well, that's true, but that doesn't show he singles out Muggleborns. Other than in the rose garden during the Ball, I don't think we ever see Snape deal with other students. I can't really think of any canon that shows his attitude at all. Carol responds: And he takes off points from Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw equally in the rose garden! seriously, one reason that we don't see him interacting with students from other Houses very often is that his Potions class consists only of Gryffindors and Slytherins. We never see him docking points from anyone in that class except HRH and Neville, either because that's where the focus is or because he never has cause to dock points from anyone else (unlikely, I'd say!) We do see him sending various students, Slytherin and Gryffindor, to the hospital wing (or applying the anecdote himself on some occasions). However, we do see that one Hufflepuff and several Ravenclaws managed to make it to NEWT Potions, meaning that they must have earned an O 9they all come to Slughorn's class with books and supplies, prepared to take the class, unlike Harry and Ron, who got in at the last minute with E's.) We also see Ernie's approval of Snape's first DADA lesson. Admittedly, Ernie is a Pure-blood, but he's also a Hufflepuff, which makes him our only non-Gryffindor/non-Slytherin commentator on Snape's teaching methods. (NEWT DADA, like NEWT Potions, includes students from all four Houses.)The only other occasion I can think of when Snape deals with students from all four Houses is the short-lived Duelling Club in CoS, where he vanishes the conjured snake that's threatening Muggle-born Justin Finch-Fletchley without a word to or about Justin; his attention is on Harry. I'd like to mention his response to fellow Half-Blood Seamus Finnigan, who has heard people talking about an article in the Prophet about an Inferius: "If you had actually read the article in question, Mr. Finnigan, you would know that that the so-called Inferius was nothing but a smelly sneak thief by the name of Mundungus Fletcher" (HBP Am. ed. 459), admittedly snarky but not undeserved since Seamus obviously *hasn't* read the article. (FWIW, the "smelly sneak thief" is also a Half-Blood, as Phineas Nigellus, who does think that blood status is important and uses, IIRC, "filthy Half-Blood" as an insult, informs us somewhere in HBP. Interesting that he overcomes that prejudice even in HBP with regard to Snape.) At any rate, Snape's treatment of his students seems to have nothing to do with their blood status. Even "Miss Granger" is merely informed that her answer is almost word for word from the Standard Book of Spells, Grade Six (which, Snape, too, has obviously memorized) before being told that her response is correct in its essentials and providing additional information (178-79). Ron, a Pure-Blood, is mocked for not knowing how to Apparate (and docked ten points) after he speaks without being called on to support Harry's answer about ghosts being transparent as opposed to Snape's more sophisticated definition about departed souls (460). Snape is sensitive to criticism of his teaching methods, as we saw in PoA when he took over Lupin's class for a day, but his sarcasm and point-docking stem from his attitude toward the particular student and from that students' behavior in his class. I see no evidence whatever of blood status influencing Snape's treatment of his students. Their attitude and aptitude (or ineptitude), their behavior, their friendship with Harry, and to some extent their House make a difference, but not blood status. Outside the classroom, Wormtail and Bellatrix, one a possible Muggle-born and the other a definite Pure-Blood, feel the sting of his sarcasm in "Spinner's End." Potioncat: > I'll second an earlier post that indicates he doesn't seem to treat Dean Thomas badly, nor does he pick on Hermione. She gets the best marks in the class. (Yes, he has picked on Hermione, but not separate from her misadventures with Harry.) Carol: Or her know-it-all attitude, which is a bit hypocritical of him since he and Hermione are both swots. In connection with those misadventures, he knows perfectly well who stole those Polyjuice ingredients from his "stores" in CoS: Hermione herself. Carol, who thinks that Snape's sarcasm may be a defensive stance that he developed as a boy at Hogwarts and never outgrew Carol, amused by the deluge of Snape posts and feeling as if nothing has changed post-DH! From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 23 22:32:52 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:32:52 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0809231427q3e7e8a2fo7b6239deda3fe6ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184438 Potioncat wrote: > > I've never seen anything in canon that indicated Professor Snape discriminated against Muggleborns. I don't mean I'm discounting a character's comments because of PoV, but rather, I don't recall anything. The only non-Pureblood I can remember discussing Snape was Hagrid--and Hagrid seemed to view him with respect. > Lynda replied: > > Professor Snape treated everyone with pretty much the same disdain and lack of respect. Blood status does not seem to have mattered. > > When discussing Lily, however, the discussion needs to be kept to his school days. Or prior to. And as a child, he showed supreme disrespect for both muggles and muggleborns. Carol responds: Like Potioncat, I had the idea that you were referring to Professor Snape rather than the boy Severus. (Maybe it's the use of the name Snape to refer to a child of nine through sixteen, which I blame on JKR, who. of course, is reflecting Harry's view of Severus Snape, boy or man, as Snape. But it might help if we all made it clearer in our posts which "Snape" we're referring to.) At any rate, I'm glad we agree that blood status seems not to have mattered to the adult Snape. I don't hink, however, that we can really say that the boy Severus showed "supreme disrespect for both Muggles and Muggleborns." He certainly showed disrespect toward Petunia, but it was mutual. She treated him with disrespect because of his poverty and oddness. (He was "that awful boy" to her; no doubt she was "Lily's awful sister" to him.) We don't actually see him showing "supreme disrespect" for his father. He only says that his father doesn't care about much of anything and fights with his mother. But, clearly, his father shaped the boy's attitude toward Muggles, probably including Petunia. The two Muggles he's acquainted with are ugly and mean. It's not surprising that a nine- or ten-year-old boy would extend that attitude to incorporate all Muggles. (We don't see him interacting with Lily's parents. If they had befriended the poor boy from the wrong side of town, maybe he'd have felt differently.) As for young Severus's "supreme disrespect for Muggleborns," it's not shown. Far from rejecting Lily, he reaches out to her, teaching her about magic and Hogwarts and even wizarding law as it relates to children. Admittedly, he rejects *Petunia* as a Muggle, but if she'd been nice to him, he might have treated her better in return despite he inability to do magic (which would make her appear to be inferior or even abnormal from his childish and unenlightened perspective). Yes, he uses "Mudblood" when the girl he loves is flirting with his tormentor, and, yes, Lily *says* that he refers to other Muggle-borns using that term, but where's the evidence to support her accusation? It isn't there. Lily may be assuming that he *must* use the term for others if he applied it to her, but that isn't necessarily true. It's also possible that he uses the term among his Slytherin friends to fit in without necessarily sharing their views (certainly not any disdain they showed for Half-bloods!), but we're not shown that, either. Instead, he's guilty until proven innocent. And Lily, who has to suppress her laughter at his predicament while she flirts with the "toerag" who's humiliating him, is taken as the ultimate authority with out a speck of ccrroborating evidence. I don't buy it. Carol, noting again that he hopes Lily will be sorted into Slytherin, indicating that he has not yet learned the extent of his House's blood prejudice before he enters Hogwarts From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Tue Sep 23 22:58:38 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 22:58:38 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184439 > Magpie replied: > > That's the way I see it too. I think Snape was already indoctrinated > into the Slytherin mindset, but wants to make an exception of Lily > from the very beginning--not unusual, really. I think SWM was the one > and only time he let Lily see that side of him, but that Lily heard > about and so knew about it before then. I don't think he ever > referred to a Muggleborn as a Mudblood in front of Lily and she was > able to hold on because of that, but once he did it in front of her > (and to her) she hit him with the fact that she knew this wasn't > unusual for him. > > Carol responds: > > "Knew"? Or assumed? It's not a *fact* that such behavior is not > unusual for him if there's no evidence to back it up. It's just an > assumption on her part and yours. Magpie: I was thinking she "knew" from her pov, since she seems to think she knows when says this isn't unusual behavior for him. Whether or not Snape calls other people the word, he hangs around with future DEs. I think that's more her point. Not necessarily that she knows Snape calls so-and-so a Mudblood, but that that's a regular attitude in his circle of acquaintances. So I would guess that from her pov it doesn't matter whether she's wrong about Snape having ever used the word before (I can't recall him denying it but I don't remember the scene that well). She's saying that his hanging out with these guys, I assume, means that he has to at the least tacitly approve of their attitudes so why should she be surprised that he's called her this? Because I agree that if Lily heard about specific accusations she'd probably have confronted him with them--that's the way she was. But I got the impression she was more just saying that of course he used the word--that's how his group of friends thinks of people like her, right? Sort of like if Lily had gotten angry and called Snape Snivellus and Snape said, "Well, yes, of course. That's what you and your friends call me, isn't it?" referring to MWPP after Lily started to move towards James. Whether or not Lily herself had ever used the term out loud, he'd be saying that's what the people she likes are about. Carol: But we see > no examples of his actually doing so and therefore have no gauge but > our own assumptions to determine to our own satisfaction to what > extent he believed and espoused the Pure-Blood supremacy doctrine. We > *do* know that he hated the two Muggles of his acquaintance but did > not extend that hatred to Lily, and we can deduce that he was > self-conscious and defensive about his status as a Half-Blood based on > the nickname Half-Blood Prince (which I think he applied to himself > for his own comfort and consolation). Magpie: True, but that seems to be chasing after something that isn't really important in the end. He's called somebody a racial slur, he chooses friends who are going to devote their life to Pureblood supremacy and he's a couple of years away from joining a Pureblood supremacy terrorist group. Whether he has doubts deep down doesn't stop him from making choices that say he's a DE. His being a Half-Blood doesn't protect him against it, or his friendship with Lily as a child. What does it mean to fully subscribe to the DE ethic, after all? Joining the DEs would, imo, be a way of saying you subscribe to it enough. Carol: > I also see no reason to believe that he hated Muggle-borns or *lied* > to Lily, as Alla says, when he said as a child that being a > Muggle-born wouldn't make any difference. The hesitation suggests that > he thought it *might* make a difference to some people, but since he > thinks and hopes that Lily can get into Slytherin with him, he clearly > doesn't realize how widespread the prejudice is, especially among > Slytherins, and that Muggle-borns simply are not admitted to Slytherin > (no doubt per Salazar Slytherin's explicit instructions). And, again, > he thinks that Slytherin is the House for brains, where both he and > Lily belong. Magpie: I read it as Snape being confused as a kid. He knows enough to think it could matter, but naturally doesn't want it to matter. I think he has holding back from telling her something there. I wouldn't call it lying, exactly, because he does want her to be in the house. But I think he's already dimly aware of a conflict between things he's heard and things he wants with Lily and is wanting them to just not exist. It's hard to think that any Slytherin legacy is really so clueless about what the house is about. Speculating, I can imagine that his mother stressed to him that it was the house of brains to assure him that he could (and perhaps better!) get in despite having a Muggle father. Perhaps his hesitation is because it reminds him of his own insecurities too. > Magpie wrote: > > Unfortunately for me, since there's so little focus on changing this > mindset I wind up taking Snape's comment to Nigellus as being more > about his own bad associations with the word than any major repulsion > to the ideas. It's not that I think he's actively prejudiced against > Muggleborns in canon or anything. It's just that the themes of the > books were personal. The bigotry themes are more about Voldemort > rather than Voldemort's beliefs being used to focus on education about > bigotry. > > Carol responds: > > there can't be any focus on Snape's changing his mindset since his > motives have to remain hidden until "the "Prince's Tale," in which > there's only room for memories that relate to Lily or otherwise help > Harry to understand that Snape is helping and protecting him. Magpie: I agree. I'm just saying that the books in general--thousands of pages of them--just don't really concentrate so much on changing mindsets. I could imagine Snape as changing his beliefs beyond his personal experiences, but the books are about his personal experiences with Lily and how that made him switch sides--it led to the murder of Lily. I don't think he ever used the word during canon while presiding over his DE-friendly house. What's important is that he's anti-Voldemort now. I don't think he's a bigot any more. He seems to treat his Muggleborn students perfectly fairly (Slughorn seems like the bigot to me). But it's not a drama of a bigot changing his beliefs, it's just a switching of sides in a fantasy universe using an obvious bad thing in our own world. The fact that we're not in Snape's head is of course a big reason for this, but it's still what the story is. His being Lily's friend is far more important than whatever specific ways he looks at Muggleborns now is--except that Lily=Muggleborn so therefore Muggleborns are good. Carol: > At any rate, in a court of law, one person's accusation against > another must be backed up by solid evidence. I read accusations of one > character by another in the same light. There must be evidence to back > up the first character's charge for me to take it seriously. And the > only evidence we have is that young Snape eventually joined the Death > Eaters. Magpie: But I think when we're talking about just generally getting a sense of a person IRL, or especially getting to know a character in a fictional series, that's pretty big evidence. Not that he specifically used the word Mudblood at any given time that we didn't see, but that Lily's correct in her impression of manners in Snape's social circle, all of whom joined Voldemort. Lily seems to have some reason to believe what she's saying. As I said above, even if that was the only time he ever used the word in his life, I think Lily would feel the point was still the same. She's calling him on the company he keeps and his enthusiasm for them, not just that this is not the first time he's used the word. -m From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 24 03:02:46 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:02:46 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 24-26 Post DH look Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184440 "The headmaster has intimated that he would prefer fewer visits from me," she said coldly. "I am not the one to press my company upon those who do not value it. If Dumbledore chooses to ignore the warnings cards show-" - p.543 Alla: I find that Dumbledore's attitude about Divination in general and Prophecy in particular still confuses me. I mean for someone who finds Divination to be such an unreliable branch of magic, he sure seemed to be awfully convinced about Prophecy coming true. Oh sure he gave all that speeech about prophecy only coming true, because Voldemort believed it, but then though he demonstrated that he believed it a lot plenty of times and in book 7 too. So what does he really think about Divination? "Dumbledore drank, and no sooner had he finished than he yelled, "KILL ME!" "This - this one will! gasped Harry. "Just drink this ... It'll be over...all over! - p.573 Alla: NO kidding Dumbledore. I was surprised though to find out that potion drinking scene still upsets me. I am very curious how I will feel about funeral. I used to shed a tear when Harry realises that Phoenix left Harry. I strongly suspect very different reaction this time, but we shall see. And I think this is it for today From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Sep 24 03:06:16 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:06:16 -0000 Subject: Lily (was Complimenting a character ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184441 Carol: > At any rate, I'm sure that you were exaggerating for effect in stating that DD was "willing to see Hogwarts burn to the ground to block Voldemort," Pippin: I can't speak for Kamion, but I don't think this is exaggeration: it's exactly what the good guys were prepared to do in DH. It's what JKR thinks should be done, in other words. Now granted, McGonagall gives the underage students and anyone who doesn't want to try to block Voldemort a chance to seek refuge elsewhere, but Dumbledore seems to have been prepared to do that too, if in his judgement there was somewhere safer for them to go. He was, according to McGonagall, prepared to close the school if Slytherin's monster killed again. But Dumbledore seems to have thought that as long as he and Snape were there to protect them along with the protective spells around Hogwarts itself, the students were better in than out, no matter what evils might be lurking on the premises. Carol: . (Binns, I agree, there's no excuse for. Chalk him up to JKR's whimsy.) Pippin: Or to pressure from the Board of Governors, who couldn't resist a faculty member that didn't have to be paid. Or perhaps Dumbledore thought a class that everyone ignored was the best way to deal with the Ministry-approved version of the past. Fudge, an educated man, thinks that Giants eat humans -- if that's a fair sample of the sort of thing the Ministry thinks should be taught, it's no wonder that Dumbledore wants such information ignored. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Sep 24 15:46:25 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:46:25 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 24-26 Post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184442 > > Alla: > > I find that Dumbledore's attitude about Divination in general and > Prophecy in particular still confuses me. I mean for someone who > finds Divination to be such an unreliable branch of magic, he sure > seemed to be awfully convinced about Prophecy coming true. Oh sure he gave all that speeech about prophecy only coming true, because > Voldemort believed it, but then though he demonstrated that he > believed it a lot plenty of times and in book 7 too. > > So what does he really think about Divination? Pippin: LOL! We thought Dumbledore didn't believe Trelawney -- turns out he already knew full well that calamity and disaster were coming nearer all the time, and he was already doing what he could about it. I think Dumbledore believes divination, whether it is authentically magical or not, comes down to guesswork and only those who fear the unknown rely on it. I'm not sure what you mean by Dumbledore demonstrating that he believed in the prophecy: could you be more specific? I think he believed in *Harry*. He believed that Harry had the courage, resilience, resourcefulness, determination, and most of all the moral strength to withstand the temptations of the horcruxes and defeat Voldemort, not because the prophecy said so but because Harry had amply demonstrated all those qualities as he was growing up. Dumbledore also included Ron and Hermione in his plans, and they weren't predicted by the prophecy at all -- but they did have many of the same qualities as Harry. In the event, bits of Voldemort were destroyed by Harry, Dumbledore, Ron, Hermione, Crabbe, Neville and Voldemort himself -- there was no single "one" who could vanquish the Dark Lord. Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 24 17:43:08 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 17:43:08 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 24-26 Post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184443 Pippin wrote: > LOL! We thought Dumbledore didn't believe Trelawney -- turns out he already knew full well that calamity and disaster were coming nearer all the time, and he was already doing what he could about it. Carol responds: True. But the fact that the cards, particularly the Lightning-Struck Tower, showed Trelawney that disaster was coming shows that there's some truth in Divination (in JKR's world), and Trelawney isn't such a great fraud after all. Also, Dumbledore says in PoA that Trelawney's prediction about the Dark Lord's servant brings her real predictions to a total of two. Pippin: > I think Dumbledore believes divination, whether it is authentically magical or not, comes down to guesswork and only those who fear the unknown rely on it. Carol: That's certainly true when it comes to interpreting visions in a crystal ball (which Trelawney "saw" but misread) or even the sorts of divination that the Centaurs do with their burnt twigs, etc. Obviously, too, prophecies like those Trelawney and other Seers make when they fall into a trance are subject to interpretation, but there's no denying that the Prophecies themselves are not invented by the Seer and that only those with the Sight have such visions. Somehow, Trelawney's first Prophecy got into the Hall of Prophecy in the DoM. did it get there magically or did Dumbledore collect a copy of his memory and send it there? Trelawney certainly didn't do it. So Prophecies and prophetic magic exist and are real regardless of what Dumbledore thinks of Divination as a subject. The only "fuzzy" part i interpretation, and that's true of all human observations. (Look at the various interpretations of literary works, historical events, or even scientific observations.) Pippin: I'm not sure what you mean by Dumbledore demonstrating that he believed in the prophecy: could you be more specific? Carol responds: I know that youre addressing Alla here, but I agree with her that some of his behavior seems to indicate that he believed in the Prophecy, or at least in Harry's destiny as the Chosen One. Granted, he suggested the Fidelius Charm to the Potters because Snape had informed them that they were in danger, not because he believed the Prophecy, but he apparently took no such precautions with the Longbottoms or other Order members who were in equal danger. He took care that Baby!Harry was removed from Wizarding society, hidden from the DEs and protected by Love magic until he was old enough to go to Hogwarts (and still protected while he was at 4 Privet Drive until he was seventeen). Agin, that could be because Voldemort believed in the Prophecy and was targeting Harry, but I don't think that was his only motive. By that point, he knew about the scar and had probably figured out, perhaps using those mysterious instruments but perhaps just thinking about the Prophecy, that Harry had a soul bit in his scar. Looking at the Prophecy, "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies....and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives. . . The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...," Dumbledore would recognize that Harry either is or could be "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord," and if there's any truth in that Prophecy, he must be given more protection that DD would normally give to people targeted by the Dark Lord. DD would see that the Dark Lord had "marked" Harry, both figuratively and literally, not only viewing Harry as his equal but literally making him his equal in the sense of giving him, through the scar, powers that he would not otherwise have and that few or no other Wizards beside Voldemort had. (Would Harry be a Parselmouth, a master Legilimens who can enter people's minds as if they were Pensieves, capable of possession, etc.? He would have to be watched and guarded and trained--and kept among Muggles, ignorant of his powers and destiny, until the time came.) DD would know that "the power the Dark Lord knows not" is Love, and Harry must be protected with Love magic, not only to keep him safe from Voldemort and the DEs but to keep him safe from the Darkness within himself, the soul bit in his scar. "Either must die at the hand of the other" indicates an inevitable face-off in which one or the other, or perhaps both, must die (the fuzzy language leaves three possibilities open--Harry could die, LV could die, both could die). And DD know that the face-off is indeed inevitable now that Harry has been marked as LV's equal because LV will make it happen. As for "born as the seventh month dies," that has already happened and is responsible for DD's narrowing the selection of possible boys to Harry and Neville. There's no question which one he has chosen. IOW, much of the Prophecy had already come true. The rest of it would happen in some form because of the scar, LV's Horcruxes (which would enable him to return), and LV's vendetta against Harry. Only Love magic, the power that LV knows not, could protect Harry until DD himself could prepare him for the confrontation that not only *would* happen because LV willed it but *must* happen to destroy the soul bit in Harry's head. And after that? Well, "either must die at the hand of the other" left open the possibility that Harry might survive, and the drop of blood that Voldemort took into himself in GoF made it likely that "the power the Dark Lord knows not" would be his undoing and save Harry. (I've left out "neiher can live while the other survives" because it makes no sense to me even now. I do have my own interpretation of it, but it doesn't match Harry's interpretation, one will have to kill the other, which fits better with the preceding line, "either must die at the hand of the other." I think JKR just got "neither can live while the other survives" stuck in her head and assigned it a meaning that it can't have, either logically or grammatically.) Pippin: > I think he believed in *Harry*. He believed that Harry had the courage, resilience, resourcefulness, determination, and most of all the moral strength to withstand the temptations of the horcruxes and defeat Voldemort, not because the prophecy said so but because Harry had amply demonstrated all those qualities as he was growing up. Dumbledore also included Ron and Hermione in his plans, and they weren't predicted by the prophecy at all -- but they did have many of the same qualities as Harry. Carol responds: Nevertheless, he placed all those protections on Harry (and watched him and gave him opportunities to test and prove himself) *before* he knew that Harry had resourcefulness, courage, resilience, etc. Of course, his being sorted into Gryffindor would give DD hope and encouragement, as would Harry's parentage. (I don't like Lily or James, but I don't deny that they both had intelligence, talent, and courage, and James, at least, had resourcefulness.) And, of course, DD made sure that Harry received a certain useful Hallow that was rightfully his. I'm not so sure that he would have relinquished the IC quite so soon or so willingly if he hadn't been quite sure that Harry really was something more than the Boy Who Lived (no doing of his own but the result of Lily's self-sacrifice). Pippin: > > In the event, bits of Voldemort were destroyed by Harry, Dumbledore, Ron, Hermione, Crabbe, Neville and Voldemort himself -- there was no single "one" who could vanquish the Dark Lord. Carol: True. But only Harry could perform the act of self-sacrifice that destroyed the soul bit, protected those around him, and come back to finish him off. I suppose that someone else could have dealt the final blow once the Horcruxes were destroyed and LV was mortal, but neither LV nor Harry would have let that happen. And even then, only Harry (through a series of coincidences and luck) was master of the Elder Wand. And probably only he would have trusted to Expelliarmus against the Dark Lord's inevitable AK. Of course, the Prophecy would have remained unfulfilled if Harry had died before LV returned (he was mortal despite the soul bit until the shared drop of blood in GoF tied his life to Voldemort's and even then an AK could send him to King's Cross, where there would be no waiting DD until the end of HBP). But only Harry could fulfill it. And Harry could have failed if the Horcruxes hadn't been found and destroyed, or if he had tried to kill LV instead of sacrificing himself, but even then the Prophecy would have been fulfilled. He was still the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord because of the scar and the Love magic, and if he had died at Voldemort's hand, "either must die at the hand of the other" would still be true. But there would no longer be a Chosen One, and the WW would have lost all hope, not knowing that LV's Horcruxes were destroyed. He would simply make one more, probably from the soul bit resulting from Harry's murder if he can actually choose the soul piece, and his victory would be assured. Others besides Harry had love in their hearts (Luna had much more than Harry did). Others besides Harry had courage and resilience. (Look at Neville.) Others, among them Hermione and Dumbledore, had more resourcefulness. Snape had all these traits (granted, the love was focused on one person) and determination to match Harry's. The moral strength to overcome the evil influence of the soul bit was, I agree, crucial, but I think that DD's Love magic helped Harry there. None of that would have mattered if LV had not chosen Harry and given him the scar with the soul bit, fulfilling the first part of the Prophecy and making the confrontation that would in some way fulfill the second part inevitable. No one but Harry could have done that. LV could not have been defeated while Harry lived with that soul bit in his head. That was the key to the whole mystery, that and self-sacrifice, the ultimate act of love that robbed LV of his formidable powers. Carol, who thinks DD knew that this Prophecy, like those in mythology and history, could be fulfilled in different ways because of its innate ambiguity, but once LV knew of it and acted to thwart it, its fulfillment in some fashion was inevitable From jeffreyakatz at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 24 17:31:21 2008 From: jeffreyakatz at sbcglobal.net (yak1605522) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 17:31:21 -0000 Subject: Fire Breathing Chicken in a Cardboard Box Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184444 Hi everyone. I am rereading OP for the third time. In Chapter Seven (The Ministry of Magic) we have the following passage (page 129, scholastic): A big, bearded wizard holding a large coardboard box stood nearby. The box was emitting rasping noises. "All right, Arthur?" said the wizard, nodding at Mr. Weasley. "What've you got there, Bob?" asked Mr. Weasley, looking at the box. "We're not sure," said the wizard seriously. "We thought it was a bog-standard chicken until it started breathing fire. Looks like a serious breach of the Ban on Experimental Breeding to me." On page 130: "Level four, Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures, incorporating Beast, Being, and Spirit Divisions, Goblin Liason Office, and Pest Advisory Bureau." "'S'cuse," said the wizard carrying the fire-breathing chicken and he left the lift pursued by a little flock of memos. It just struck me as odd that someone would attempt to contain a fire breathing creature in a cardboard box. Certainly the creature could breath fire and burn the box and escape (and besides for that, this is simply a fire hazard). Now the passage certainly gives us the impression that Bob is experienced at dealing with odd and possibly dangerous creatures. Why would Bob store/attempt to contain this fire- breathing chicken in a cardboard box? This Bob- I don't believe he is ever else mentioned in canon or that we know anything else about him (other than his first name and that he is big and has a beard). Do you think that any of this information helps us understand Bob's character a little more and helps us to understand a little better why he would put something that breathes fire in a cardboard container? Thanks, Yak From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com Thu Sep 25 03:04:29 2008 From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 03:04:29 -0000 Subject: Protection via Charms and Secret-Keeper Approach Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184445 Okay, I have a few questions: all these are with respect to DH: 1. The Trio mention the taboo-ed word "Voldemort" even after moving into 12 GP. Death eaters were outside, all right. But why didn't the protective charms around 12 GP break like it did just before the Malfoy Manor chapter began?? If it is because of the Secret-Keeper thing then why didn't the Trio go for this approach each time they shifted their tents? 2. In The Silver Doe chapter, how did Harry and Ron find their way back to the tent if it were protected by their usual charms?? 3. Why did Xenophilius find his way to the room where Harry was through the mess when he and the DEs could have just Apparated to that room?? Any quotes from canon that you can think of which would explain these things? ~Joey From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 25 05:25:28 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 05:25:28 -0000 Subject: Protection via Charms and Secret-Keeper Approach In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184446 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "happyjoeysmiley" wrote: > 1. The Trio mention the taboo-ed word "Voldemort" even after moving > into 12 GP. Death eaters were outside, all right. But why didn't > the protective charms around 12 GP break like it did just before > the Malfoy Manor chapter began?? If it is because of the Secret- > Keeper thing then why didn't the Trio go for this approach each > time they shifted their tents? zanooda: Maybe Hermione didn't learn the Fidelius Charm yet :-), according to Flitwick it is a very complex spell. Also, HRH didn't know about the taboo at the beginning, Ron found out about it while he was away, and Harry and Hermione - only after Ron returned. They wouldn't think of using the charm (even if Hermione knew how) to protect themselves from the taboo, because they didn't know about the taboo, if it makes sense, LOL. And it was probably too complicated to use it every day for the regular protection. Hmm, not very convincing, but nothing else comes to mind :-). > happyjoeysmiley wrote: > 2. In The Silver Doe chapter, how did Harry and Ron find their way > back to the tent if it were protected by their usual charms?? zanooda: Maybe those protective charms work only against the people that are outside when the charms are cast? I mean, HRH were able to find their tent after going out all the time, not only at the night of the Silver Doe - after going out to pick mushrooms, or catch fish, or even after visiting a neighboring town (where Harry met the Dementors). At the night of the Doe (and the previous night) Ron couldn't find the tent, because he wasn't in it when Hermione cast the charms, but he was able to return with Harry, who could see the tent no problem :-). > happyjoeysmiley wrote: > 3. Why did Xenophilius find his way to the room where Harry was > through the mess when he and the DEs could have just Apparated to > that room?? zanooda: The DEs wouldn't want to Apparate to that room, they suspected a trap, remember? As for Xeno, I suspect that he lost his wand during the explosion, because it sounded like he didn't even try to levitate the debris, but cleared the stairs by hand. If he didn't have his wand, he couldn't Apparate. Besides, it's kind of dangerous to Apparate to a destroyed room, where someone waits to attack you - you can't see where you are going, see :-)? > happyjoeysmiley: > Any quotes from canon that you can think of which would explain > these things? zanooda: No time for quotes right now, maybe later :-). From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu Sep 25 12:04:33 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:04:33 -0000 Subject: Fire Breathing Chicken in a Cardboard Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184447 "yak1605522" wrote: snip > On page 130: > > "Level four, Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical > Creatures, incorporating Beast, Being, and Spirit Divisions, Goblin > Liason Office, and Pest Advisory Bureau." > "'S'cuse," said the wizard carrying the fire-breathing chicken and > he left the lift pursued by a little flock of memos. Potioncat: Oh, thank you! Something new from a book we've poured over time and again. I've always been too busy paying attention to Harry to think about the chicken in the box. This is really funny--a fire-breathing chicken! And as a second joke, a fire-breathing anything in a cardboard box. BTW, are there restaurants in England that serve chicken in boxes? There are several chains in the US that do. You'll get a piece of chicken, a biscuit and fries or some other side served in a small box. So maybe there's a 3rd joke. The paper airplane memos were invented by a Muggleborn, no doubt. Is this when Arthur explains that owls made too much mess? Makes one wonder about the timing of having all those owls show up at meal time at Hogwarts. >Yak Do you think that any of this information > helps us understand Bob's character a little more and helps us to > understand a little better why he would put something that breathes > fire in a cardboard container? Potioncat: Now that you mention it, he sounds a bit like Hagrid. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Thu Sep 25 14:36:49 2008 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:36:49 -0000 Subject: Fire Breathing Chicken in a Cardboard Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184448 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > "yak1605522" wrote: > snip > > On page 130: > > > > "Level four, Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical > > Creatures, incorporating Beast, Being, and Spirit Divisions, Goblin > > Liason Office, and Pest Advisory Bureau." > > "'S'cuse," said the wizard carrying the fire-breathing chicken > and > > he left the lift pursued by a little flock of memos. Geoff: Perhaps the box has a foil lining - or has a magical sprinkler system fitted? From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Sep 25 16:59:05 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:59:05 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 24-26 Post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184449 > Carol responds: > True. But the fact that the cards, particularly the Lightning-Struck > Tower, showed Trelawney that disaster was coming shows that there's > some truth in Divination (in JKR's world), and Trelawney isn't such great fraud after all. Also, Dumbledore says in PoA that Trelawney's prediction about the Dark Lord's servant brings her real predictions to a total of two. Pippin: True. Dumbledore knows that Trelawney can make predictions based on magic as well as on ordinary intuition and applied psychology disguised as magic. Such magical predictions are rare and curious, and certainly worthy of study, though he may politely doubt that the ability to make them can be taught. But does he think that such predictions are reliable? He knows that some have come true. But does he believe that they *must* come true? Does he ever shape his plans in response to a prediction itself, rather than his guess as to how someone else will respond to it? > > Pippin: > I'm not sure what you mean by Dumbledore demonstrating that he > believed in the prophecy: could you be more specific? > > Carol responds: > at least in Harry's destiny as the Chosen One. Granted, he suggested > the Fidelius Charm to the Potters because Snape had informed them that they were in danger, not because he believed the Prophecy, but he > apparently took no such precautions with the Longbottoms or other > Order members who were in equal danger. Pippin: But they weren't in equal danger because Voldemort had decided that the prophecy applied to the Potters only. If Dumbledore had believed in the prophecy himself, he would have thought that Neville had just as much chance of being the Chosen One, and he would have protected Neville accordingly. Further, if he had believed it, he would have placed Lily and James under special protection before being warned by Snape. Carol: He took care that Baby!Harry was removed from Wizarding society, hidden from the DEs and protected by Love magic until he was old enough to go to Hogwarts (and still protected while he was at 4 Privet Drive until he was seventeen). > Agin, that could be because Voldemort believed in the Prophecy and was targeting Harry, but I don't think that was his only motive. Pippin: Why wouldn't that be enough? The Dumbledore family chose to keep Ariana where she was loved instead of at St Mungo's where she would be safe, and two people died as a result. Dumbledore would not make the same mistake with Harry. I agree that Dumbledore probably suspected at once that Harry had a soul bit stuck in him, and that this was an additional reason that Harry needed protection from his fellow wizards, but DD wouldn't need the prophecy to tell him that. He already knew that murder and horcrux construction make the soul unstable, and he would have suspected that Voldemort had made a horcrux since he suspected that Voldemort wasn't dead. Carol: (I've left out "neiher can live while the other survives" > because it makes no sense to me even now. I do have my own > interpretation of it, but it doesn't match Harry's interpretation, one will have to kill the other, which fits better with the preceding > line, "either must die at the hand of the other." I think JKR just got "neither can live while the other survives" stuck in her head and > assigned it a meaning that it can't have, either logically or > grammatically.) Pippin: It would make sense to Dumbledore, and to JKR if she shares his belief that people aren't alive, despite being able to walk and talk and kill others, if they can't die. (And just in case we don't get it, she gives us the charming Bathilda as unliving proof!) Harry seems to have forgotten that Voldemort is not supposed to have heard the rest of the prophecy and doesn't know the "either must die" part anyway. I think Harry is simply doing everything he can think of to make sure that Voldemort engages him in single combat. He needs to protect the other people in the room whom Voldemort might use as hostages and he wants Voldemort to die by his own spell so that he himself will not have to cast a fatal curse. It does fulfill the prophecy, if you read it in a rather convoluted way, but I don't think Harry thought about that. He's not a convoluted thinker. > > Carol responds: > Nevertheless, he placed all those protections on Harry (and watched > him and gave him opportunities to test and prove himself) *before* he knew that Harry had resourcefulness, courage, resilience, etc. Of > course, his being sorted into Gryffindor would give DD hope and > encouragement, as would Harry's parentage. Pippin: It isn't just Harry who's in danger from the soul bit, it's the whole WW. That's reason enough for the protection. If Voldemort, or anyone else, had realized that Harry had potentially all the powers of Voldemort, Harry would have become the target for all kinds of schemes. Dumbledore did hope that Harry would become capable of eliminating Voldemort so that his death, required by the presence of the soul bit, would serve some purpose. That it might, by a very convoluted reading, fulfill the prophecy as well, was IMO beside the point. That is, from Dumbledore's pov, of course. Naturally JKR has every intention of seeing the prophecy fulfilled, and of forcing us to accept her reading in order to see it as fulfilled. That's really the only point of having a prophecy in the story at all, IMO, since as Hermione points out it's not very magical to be able to predict the future when you are in complete control of events. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu Sep 25 17:00:57 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:00:57 -0000 Subject: Fire Breathing Chicken in a Cardboard Box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184450 > > Geoff: > Perhaps the box has a foil lining - or has a magical sprinkler system fitted? > Pippin: Why not a flame-freezing charm? Pippin apologizing for the one liner From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 25 17:13:14 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:13:14 -0000 Subject: Protection via Charms and Secret-Keeper Approach In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184451 Joey wrote: > > > 1. The Trio mention the taboo-ed word "Voldemort" even after moving into 12 GP. Death eaters were outside, all right. But why didn't the protective charms around 12 GP break like it did just before the Malfoy Manor chapter began?? If it is because of the Secret-Keeper thing then why didn't the Trio go for this approach each time they shifted their tents? > zanooda responded: > > Maybe Hermione didn't learn the Fidelius Charm yet :-), according to Flitwick it is a very complex spell. Also, HRH didn't know about the taboo at the beginning, Ron found out about it while he was away, and Harry and Hermione - only after Ron returned. They wouldn't think of using the charm (even if Hermione knew how) to protect themselves from the taboo, because they didn't know about the taboo, if it makes sense, LOL. And it was probably too complicated to use it every day for the regular protection. Hmm, not very convincing, but nothing else comes to mind :-). Carol responds: Actually, I think your explanation is exactly right. 12 GP was protected by the Fidelius Charm, which prevented the DEs from seeing the building (or even a gap between 12 GP and its neighbors), much less seeing or hearing what went on inside. Hermione's protective spells hid their tents (and Muffliato would have caused an indefinable buzzing in the ears of anyone who came near, covering up their conversation), but none of those spells was a countercurse to the Taboo, which, as you say, they didn't know about. Also, I agree that not even Hermione had learned the Fidelius Charm, which may not have been in her Hogwarts textbooks. Who would be their Secret Keeper when all three were part of the secret? In any case, they'd have to repeat that complex spell every time they moved. How many secrets can one person hold? the old spell would become invalid each time they moved. Also, they had the Invisibility Cloak and Polyjuice Potion to use whenever they went out. I'm sure they thought that they were quite safe (with the exception of Godric's Hollow). And if they'd known about and abided by the Taboo, they would have been. (Of course, they'd also never have gone to Malfoy Manor, in which case, Wormtail (and Dobby) would still be alive, Luna and Ollivander and Dean and Griphook would still be prisoners, Draco would still be master of the Elder Wand, and HRH wouldn't know the whereabouts of the Horcrux in Bellatrix's vault. The kidnapping by Snatchers is one of many "good bad things" in the HP books. The consequences go far beyond what Greyback and his cronies intended when they kidnapped "Vernon Dudley" and his friends, and not just for the people I've listed.) > Joey wrote: > > > 2. In The Silver Doe chapter, how did Harry and Ron find their way back to the tent if it were protected by their usual charms?? > zanooda wrote: > Maybe those protective charms work only against the people that are outside when the charms are cast? At the night of the Doe (and the previous night) Ron couldn't find the tent, because he wasn't in it when Hermione cast the charms, but he was able to return with Harry, who could see the tent no problem :-). Carol responds: Exactly. Good thing Ron had that Deluminator! (How DD knew that he'd need it is another question.) > Joey wrote: > > > 3. Why did Xenophilius find his way to the room where Harry was through the mess when he and the DEs could have just Apparated to that room?? > > > zanooda: > > The DEs wouldn't want to Apparate to that room, they suspected a trap, remember? As for Xeno, I suspect that he lost his wand during the explosion, because it sounded like he didn't even try to levitate the debris, but cleared the stairs by hand. If he didn't have his wand, he couldn't Apparate. Besides, it's kind of dangerous to Apparate to a destroyed room, where someone waits to attack you - you can't see where you are going, see :-)? Carol responds: All very good answers, but it could simply be that Xeno, like most Wizards, had anti-apparition spells on his house. What I wonder si why the two DEs, Travers and Selwyn, used brooms instead of Apparating to the neighborhood where Xeno lived. Apparently, they'd been there before and knew where it was (not that it would be hard to find from the air!). Carol, hoping that she's added something new rather than just seconding zanooda From k12listmomma at comcast.net Thu Sep 25 17:59:54 2008 From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 11:59:54 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fire Breathing Chicken in a Cardboard Box References: Message-ID: <20B6F2D3AD904AD6A303148E0DDC463C@homemain> No: HPFGUIDX 184452 > "yak1605522" wrote: > snip >> On page 130: >> >> "Level four, Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical >> Creatures, incorporating Beast, Being, and Spirit Divisions, Goblin >> Liason Office, and Pest Advisory Bureau." >> "'S'cuse," said the wizard carrying the fire-breathing chicken and >> he left the lift pursued by a little flock of memos. > > Potioncat: > This is really funny--a fire-breathing chicken! And as a second joke, > a fire-breathing anything in a cardboard box. BTW, are there > restaurants in England that serve chicken in boxes? There are several > chains in the US that do. You'll get a piece of chicken, a biscuit > and fries or some other side served in a small box. So maybe there's > a 3rd joke. Shelley: I hadn't thought of KFC or Jack-in-the-Box or the other deep fried chicken restaurants when I first read that passage, but now it's even funnier to me. Thanks for that. Self cooking chicken! Just at the age that the chicken is perfect to eat, it develops the habit of roasting itself. LOL My daughter automatically thought of a magical protection for the box- a spell put on it, once they realized that the animal was going to destroy the container, so that they could carry the animal without the destruction of the box. It makes sense to me that aurors and other peacekeepers would need to know a whole host of handy spells for just such an occasion, to be able to "bring in" dangerous items without they themselves getting burnt or injured- cursed items, fiery items, items with acid or other dangers. They would need to modify a container (or summon one) that could handle the item in question for safe transport. So, I would just assume that one of them had cast a spell to make the box fireproof before adding the chicken. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 25 19:21:15 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 19:21:15 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 24-26 Post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184453 Pippin wrote: > True. Dumbledore knows that Trelawney can make predictions based on magic as well as on ordinary intuition and applied psychology disguised as magic. Such magical predictions are rare and curious, and certainly worthy of study, though he may politely doubt that the ability to make them can be taught. > > But does he think that such predictions are reliable? He knows that some have come true. But does he believe that they *must* come true? Carol responds: As I said, he knows that some prophecies have not come true and that Prophecies are ambiguously worded and can be fulfilled in different ways. He also knows, I think, that the moment someone acts to thwart or fulfill a Prophecy, the Prophecy is set in motion. In "Oedipus Rex," exposing the baby in hopes that he'll die sets in motion the events that will lead to his marrying a woman he doesn't know is his mother and killing a man he doesn't know in his father. In real life, King Croesus was told by an oracle that he would destroy a great army, so he fought the Persians thinking that he would defeat them, but the great army he destroyed was his own. Would "the old Muggle lover" be familiar with those prophecies and others more closely connected with the WW? I think he would. I'm quite sure that he studied the Prophecy very carefully, and not just the part that Voldemort overheard. He may have ignored it before Snape told him that Voldemort interpreted it to apply to the Potter child, but he certainly didn't ignore it after that, especially after the first part of it came true and Voldemort "marked [Harry] as his equal." What, DD would think, is "the power that the Dark Lord knows not"? Obviously, love. Ergo, Love Magic would be Harry's best protection. Certainly, it was the reason that he survived. (Lily must have sacrificed herself for him in some unique way related to LV's promise to Snape or Harry would not have survived.) And what does "marked him as his equal" mean? I don't think that Dumbledore would have figured out that the cut on Harry's forehead was anything more than the gash left by the escaping AK (it can't be the AK entering Harry--that wouldn't leave a mark) even though he suspected that LV had made at least one Horcrux and probably more and knew that LV's soul was unstable because of all the murders he'd committed, two of them recently, *unless* he also knew the Prophecy. Harry would be marked, via his scar, as Voldemort's equal. that must mean that Voldemort had inadvertently given him powers in some way equal to his own. How? Through the cut that became a scar. Something must have entered Harry that gave him those powers. What could it be? A soul bit from the unstable soul must somehow have lodged in Harry's soon-to-be scar, making him an accidental Horcrux of sorts. that, in addition to Voldemort's belief in the Prophecy, would entitle Harry to extra protection. The soul bit would one day need to be destroyed, but until then, whatever special powers Harry had must be discovered and nurtured so that they could ultimately be used against Voldemort. There was always hope that "either must die at the hand of the other" did not mean that both must die. Pippin: > Does he ever shape his plans in response to a prediction itself, rather than his guess as to how someone else will respond to it? Carol: He can hardly shape any plans in response to Trelawney's second prophecy, which has already been fulfilled before he even hears about it. As for her cartomancy in HBP, he knows better than she does that catastrophe is approaching via Draco Malfoy, and he's doing his best to prevent it. But the Prophecy about Harry as "the one with the power" is another matter. The fact that Voldemort has responded to it is important not only because Dumbledore now knows that he'll go after Harry. Voldemort has *activated* the Prophecy by trying to thwart it, and certain predictions have already come true. It's up to Dumbledore to make sure that the Prophecy is fulfilled the way he wants it to be, with Harry destroying Voldemort, whether or not Harry dies in the process. Carol earlier: > > at least in Harry's destiny as the Chosen One. Granted, he suggested the Fidelius Charm to the Potters because Snape had informed them that they were in danger, not because he believed the Prophecy, but he apparently took no such precautions with the Longbottoms or other Order members who were in equal danger. > > Pippin: > But they weren't in equal danger because Voldemort had decided that the prophecy applied to the Potters only. If Dumbledore had believed in the prophecy himself, he would have thought that Neville had just as much chance of being the Chosen One, and he would have protected Neville accordingly. Further, if he had believed it, he would have placed Lily and James under special protection before being warned by Snape. Carol responds: All of the Order members were in just as much danger as the Potters as the deaths of many of them illustrate. Harry was the only child who was specifically targeted, but many other people were on LV's hit list, just like Amelia Bones in HBP. And once LV decided to kill you, you were as good as dead. IMO, Dumbledore attempted to extend special protection to the Potters not just because Voldemort was specifically targeting the Potters (and because he had promised Snape to do so and wanted Snape as his spy) but because he already saw the possibility that Harry might become "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." And when the first part of the Prophecy fulfilled itself at Godric's Hollow, I think he made it his business to study the Prophecy and all its possible implications. The Prophecy explained how Harry had survived (Love magic) and revealed what would be his best protection (more Love magic). The Prophecy revealed that Voldemort had (inadvertently) given Harry powers equal to his own, unique to him and Voldemort. The scar was more than a scar and could, as DD tells McGonagall, be useful. (How useful, and exactly what was in the scar, he did not say.) > > > Carol: > He took care that Baby!Harry was removed from Wizarding society, > hidden from the DEs and protected by Love magic until he was old > enough to go to Hogwarts (and still protected while he was at 4 Privet > Drive until he was seventeen). > > Agin, that could be because Voldemort believed in the Prophecy and > was targeting Harry, but I don't think that was his only motive. > > Pippin: > Why wouldn't that be enough? The Dumbledore family chose to keep Ariana where she was loved instead of at St Mungo's where she would be safe, and two people died as a result. Dumbledore would not make the same mistake with Harry. Carol: But not just because Harry was another innocent whose life Voldemort had decided to take. Harry was a special case. He had survived Voldemort's AK, which had rebounded on Voldemort, who would some day return and destroy Harry because he believed him to be the Chosen One. But, so what? What did it matter to Dumbledore if many innocent lives were destroyed, including Harry's? It mattered because Harry and Harry alone might weel have "the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." He wasn't just an innocent child who might be murdered as the McKinnon children were murdered. Their deaths, however tragic, made no difference to "the greater good." But Harry's death, while it would destroy a Horcrux, would also destroy the one with "the power that the Dark Lord knows not," not to mention the one with the scar that might be the key to destroying Voldemort permanently. Pippin: > I agree that Dumbledore probably suspected at once that Harry had a soul bit stuck in him, and that this was an additional reason that Harry needed protection from his fellow wizards, but DD wouldn't need the prophecy to tell him that. He already knew that murder and horcrux construction make the soul unstable, and he would have suspected that Voldemort had made a horcrux since he suspected that Voldemort wasn't dead. Carol responds: I've already stated that I think Dumbledore needed the part of the Prophecy about LV marking Harry as his equal to realize that a soul bit had lodged in Harry. But, IMO, he also needed the Prophecy to realize that the soul bit could be useful in defeating Voldemort, giving Harry powers and insights that no other Wizard had. Otherwise, Harry, though an innocent child, would be nothing more to Dumbledore than an accidental Horcrux whose destruction was necessary to make Voldemort mortal. As long as Horcrux!Harry lived, Voldemort could not be killed. Without the Prophecy, which tells Dumbledore that Harry's unique powers can be used against Voldemort, and are, in fact, necessary to the defeat of Voldemort, Harry's death would be more useful to the greater good than his life. IMO, Harry's survival at Godric's Hollow in the context of the Prophecy indicates to Dumbledore that Harry is the Chosen One, that he is more important than the other victims for this reason, and that, desirable as it might be to destroy the soul bit or allow it to be destroyed (a second AK fired by a DE rather than LV himself would not rebound), Harry's life must be preserved long enough to train him for the inevitable confrontation. I'm not saying that Dumbledore would have murdered Harry himself, but he would not have taken extraordinary measures to protect the life of a living Horcrux if he did not think that the boy with the scar would eventually bring Voldemort down. > Pippin: > It isn't just Harry who's in danger from the soul bit, it's the whole WW. That's reason enough for the protection. If Voldemort, or anyone else, had realized that Harry had potentially all the powers of Voldemort, Harry would have become the target for all kinds of schemes. Carol responds: True. But it's only the Prophecy that enables Dumbledore to know that the soul bit requires protection as the source of Harry's unique powers rather than destruction like the soul bits in the deliberately created Horcruxes. Now that Dumbledore is a cruel or evil man, but he's cold and manipulative, and if the greater good required the sacrifice of an infant, he would let the infant be killed, assuming that he figured out that a soul bit had entered through the cut. What he would figure out with only the information Snape had given him was that Harry had survived through Love magic. He would not figure out that the scar was more than a scar. It had nothing to do with his miraculous survival. But with the Prophecy, combined with his prior knowledge of Voldemort's Horcruxes (surely more than one given the alteration in his appearance), he could figure out what had happened and conclude that this particular "Horcrux" must be protected rather than destroyed, at least until DD could finish training him as "a pig to the slaughter." Pippin: > Dumbledore did hope that Harry would become capable of eliminating Voldemort so that his death, required by the presence of the soul bit, would serve some purpose. Carol: But why believe that Harry would become capable of eliminating Voldemort if there's no Prophecy? Sure, he's the Boy Who Lived, but that has nothing to do with ultimately defeating Voldemort. That's just Voldemort's broken promise to Snape combined with Lily's self-sacrifice. That in itself doesn't entitle Harry to special protection even though Voldemort believes that he's the one with the power unless Dumbledore also believes it. A lot of other people are also being targeted by the remaining DEs and will be targeted when LV returns. But Dumbledore takes special precautions regarding Harry, keeping him out of the hands of supposed DE Sirius Black, whom DD undoubtedly suspects will kill him. What a convenient way to get rid of the infant Horcrux: let Sirius Black drop him in the English Channel as they fly over it on his motorcycle. Dumbledore's hands will be clean. Instead, he chooses to protect the child he knows, via the Prophecy, to be the only person capable of defeating Voldemort. (Not without help and guidance, of course.) Pippin: Naturally JKR has every intention of seeing the prophecy fulfilled, and of forcing us to accept her reading in order to see it as fulfilled. Carol: Naturally. However, there's no way she can force me to believe that "Neither can live while the other survives" means that one must kill the other! (FWIW, I agree that it means that Voldemort, at least, is not fully alive while Harry survives. Perhaps Harry isn't fully alive, either. But JKR treats that line, which, as you point out, Voldemort never heard, as the heart of the Prophecy, the part that means Harry must either "murder" or be murdered. That's an example of *JKR's* convoluted thinking. But much of the rest of the Prophecy is properly ambiguous, leaving it open to fulfillment in a variety of unexpected ways. Pippin: > That's really the only point of having a prophecy in the story at all, IMO, since as Hermione points out it's not very magical to be able to predict the future when you are in complete control of events. Carol responds: I disagree. The Prophecy is extremely important as a plot device. Not only does it set up the Snape subplot, it also sets up the protections on Harry and gives Voldemort a motive for specifically targeting him and Dumbledore a reason for specifically protecting him. It explains how Dumbledore knows that Harry's scar is something more than a curse scar and that Love magic is Harry's best protection. Sure, the reader knows by the time he actually reads the Prophecy that Harry has a unique relationship to Voldemort and a connection through his scar. He knows that Voldemort is trying to kill Harry and that one day Harry and Voldemort will have a final showdown. But the Prophecy explains why Voldemort was particularly targeting Harry rather than his parents (though James would have been murdered in any case, and so would Lily as a matter of course if it hadn't been for Snape). It also explains why Dumbledore singles Harry out for special training and protection not given to others whose parents have been killed by Voldemort and why he keeps Trelawney on the staff when he ostensibly doesn't believe in Divination (or, as you suggest, doesn't believe that Divination can be taught). And, of course, learning that Snape revealed the (partial) Prophecy to LV gives Harry an additional reason to hate him and both Harry and the reader additional reason to think that Snape is evil when he kills Dumbledore. A very useful and integral part of the plot, I'd say. And, of course, it has to be fulfilled in some way in the end. Carol, wishing she had time to edit this post to eliminate repetiveness From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 25 23:48:14 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 23:48:14 -0000 Subject: Protection via Charms and Secret-Keeper Approach In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184454 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > zanooda wrote: > At the night of the Doe (and the previous night) Ron couldn't > find the tent, because he wasn't in it when Hermione cast the > charms, but he was able to return with Harry > Carol responds: > Exactly. Good thing Ron had that Deluminator! zanooda: Yeah, but I should have said here that a person needs to be inside the area protected by the spells, not inside the tent itself :-). Hermione usually cast the spells first around some perimeter, and only after that the Trio (or the Duo) erected the tent. > Carol wrote: > All very good answers, but it could simply be that Xeno, like most > Wizards, had anti-apparition spells on his house. zanooda: I thought anti-apparition spell only protects the house from an outside apparition, not from room-to-room apparition. In OotP, Fred and George annoyed Hermione at 12 GP by apparating all the time, although *that* house was certainly protected by anti-apparition spells. > Carol wrote: > What I wonder is why the two DEs, Travers and Selwyn, used > brooms instead of Apparating to the neighborhood where Xeno lived. zanooda: LOL! They like flying :-)? They are bad at apparating :-)? From bawilson at citynet.net Fri Sep 26 00:58:18 2008 From: bawilson at citynet.net (Bruce Alan Wilson) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:58:18 -0400 Subject: Fire Breathing Chicken in a Cardboard Box Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184455 He could have put an anti-combustion charm on the box. Bruce Alan Wilson "The bicycle is the most civilized conveyance known to man. Other forms of transport grow daily more nightmarish. Only the bicycle remains pure in heart."--Iris Murdoch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Sep 26 13:53:29 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:53:29 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 24-26 Post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184456 > Alla: > > I find that Dumbledore's attitude about Divination in general and > Prophecy in particular still confuses me. I mean for someone who > finds Divination to be such an unreliable branch of magic, he sure > seemed to be awfully convinced about Prophecy coming true. Oh sure he > gave all that speeech about prophecy only coming true, because > Voldemort believed it, but then though he demonstrated that he > believed it a lot plenty of times and in book 7 too. > > So what does he really think about Divination? Potioncat: I'm not sure if DD was avoidng Trelawney because he already knew what was coming, and didn't need to hear more; or if he was concerned he would act on something and set it in motion. It seems DD believes once acted upon, a prophecy becomes real. All the prophecies we have in literature/folk lore have someone acting upon the prophecy. I don't think we have any stories of ones being ignored. I don't have canon in front of me, but DD said a lot of funny things about divination--sometimes they were word plays. I remember something along the line of, "Never having taken Divination, I couldn't foresee how much trouble it would be..." I'm sure DD thinks Trelawney lacks ability. By the same token, a lot of her mixed-up predictions had a kernal of truth to them. Harry did die youg--sort of. In 19 years he'll be Head of the Auror dept, well on his way to being MoM. As for the 12 kids---there's still time. ;-) From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Sep 26 15:47:32 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 15:47:32 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 24-26 Post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184457 > Potioncat: > I'm not sure if DD was avoidng Trelawney because he already knew what was coming, and didn't need to hear more; or if he was concerned he would act on something and set it in motion. It seems DD believes once acted upon, a prophecy becomes real. Pippin: I'm not sure *why* Dumbledore would believe that, since Trelawney's second prophecy came true without anyone taking action on it at all. With both prophecies, if Harry had believed them and known what they actually meant, they wouldn't have come true. If Harry had realized that Pettigrew was going to bring about Voldemort's return, he never would have spared him, and if Harry had realized that he couldn't die as long as his blood lived in Voldemort, he wouldn't have been able to offer his life in order to vanquish him. Potioncat: > All the prophecies we have in literature/folk lore have someone acting upon the prophecy. I don't think we have any stories of ones being ignored. Pippin: Exactly. People who believe in prophecies do not think they should be ignored. No pious ancient Greek would have dared to suggest that some prophecies never come true, or that one could place too much emphasis on them. Carol: What, DD would think, is "the power that the Dark Lord knows not"? Obviously, love. Ergo, Love Magic would be Harry's best protection. Pippin: Dumbledore may well have been a student of Greek myth, but if he was, he wouldn't need a prophecy to tell him he should look for Voldemort's Achilles heel. JKR shows us that Dumbledore already knew that Voldemort's disdain for the power of love was his great weakness. Dumbledore couldn't use love magic directly to protect people besides Harry because other people hadn't been the object of a sacrifice like Lily's. But Harry, having been given that power, *could* use it to protect others, once he grew strong enough. That, not the prophecy itself, gave Harry strategic value. That Harry turned out to have some of Voldemort's powers as well was an added bonus, but not, IMO, the main reason that Dumbledore chose Harry as his secret weapon. I am not sure why you conclude that Dumbledore was giving extraordinary protection to the Potters, protection that other people would not get if Dumbledore knew for certain that they were being hunted by Voldemort himself. There is no reason to think that the Order's headquarters in VWI wasn't protected by the secret-keeper spell along with other safe houses just as in VW2. Probably an Auror was assigned to shadow the Muggle Prime Minister, too. Of course Order members died, just as the Potters did, because Dumbledore's protection is not an impenetrable shield. People may be drawn out of hiding as Harry was in OOP, or they may prefer to rely on their own resources, like Karkaroff and Slughorn, or they may consider that Dumbledore was exaggerating the danger as James and Lily did in dismissing the idea that one of their friends was a traitor, or they may be killed in action like Sirius. I assume the latter is how most of the Order members killed in VWI met their end, just as in VW2. It was obvious that Harry was still in danger after Voldemort's fall since the DE's might try to take revenge on him, but why should Dumbledore suppose that the DE's would attack the Longbottoms? It still isn't clear why Bella thought they would know where Voldemort was. Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 26 18:48:51 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:48:51 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 24-26 Post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184458 Pippin: >Carol earlier: > What, DD would think, is "the power that the Dark Lord knows not"? > Obviously, love. Ergo, Love Magic would be Harry's best protection. > > Pippin: > Dumbledore may well have been a student of Greek myth, but if he was, he wouldn't need a prophecy to tell him he should look for Voldemort's Achilles heel. JKR shows us that Dumbledore already knew that Voldemort's disdain for the power of love was his great weakness. Carol again: Possibly. But the Prophecy states that *Harry* will have "the power that the Dark Lord knows not" (which DD would deduce is Love), and he would think about why that might be true (Lily must have sacrificed her life to save him) and how that power could be used to protect Baby Harry so that he, in turn, could use it later to defeat Voldemort. *Unless* Harry has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, as the Prophecy indictes, he, as a soul-bit carrier, is more dangerous alive than dead. As a Horcrux, he has to die at some point to destroy the soul bit (or so DD would think at that time). But as the Prophecy Boy, he has to live long enough to vanquish Voldemort, and, as both DD's knowledge of Voldemort and his awareness of the Prophecy indicate, the best protection he can have is Love Magic. Pippin: > Dumbledore couldn't use love magic directly to protect people besides Harry because other people hadn't been the object of a sacrifice like Lily's. But Harry, having been given that power, *could* use it to protect others, once he grew strong enough. That, not the prophecy itself, gave Harry strategic value. Carol: How would Dumbledore know that the boy with the soul bit in his head could use Love magic to help others if it weren't for the Prophecy? Assuming, that is, that DD even knew about the soul bit. Pippin: > That Harry turned out to have some of Voldemort's powers as well was an added bonus, but not, IMO, the main reason that Dumbledore chose Harry as his secret weapon. Carol: Shrug. We can't know what DD thought. We can only look at his actions and what we know of his character traits and draw inferences from there. Dumbledore is not one to throw away helpful information, especially after he sees aspects of the Prophecy actually fulfilled. Voldemort *has* marked Harry (who was born as the seventh month dies) as his equal, which seems to mean that Harry will have powers unique to him (and LV). If that part is true, the parts about Harry being "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" and his having "the power that the Dark Lord knows not" (Love magic) must also be true. How and why would he have the power of Love? Because Lily died to save him. How to preserve that power, which can only come into play via Harry if his life is protected? Protect him until he's old enough using that same magic, which can only be done throug the blood he shared with Lily, which can only mean Petunia. > Pippin: > I am not sure why you conclude that Dumbledore was giving extraordinary protection to the Potters, protection that other people would not get if Dumbledore knew for certain that they were being hunted by Voldemort himself. There is no reason to think that the Order's headquarters in VWI wasn't protected by the secret-keeper spell along with other safe houses just as in VW2. Probably an Auror was assigned to shadow the Muggle Prime Minister, too. Carol: I disagree. Only the Potters were protected by a Fidelius Charm, which DD suggested to them alone because of Snape's request. He would have been the Secret Keeper himself if they had allowed it. That the others were not similarly protected (except perhaps at Order HQ) is indicated by the large numbers of Order members who died in VW1, systematically wiped out by DEs and in some cases by Voldemort himself. The whole McKinnon family, the Prewett brothers, Benjy Fenwick ("We only ever found bits of him"), Edgar Bones, and I can't remember who else died simply because Voldemort was targeting Order members (no doubt on information supplied to him by Wormtail). Pippin: > Of course Order members died, just as the Potters did, because Dumbledore's protection is not an impenetrable shield. Carol responds: As far as I can see, the other Order members didn't receive Dumbledore's protection at all, given all the large number who were murdered or died fighting. And if a Fidelius Charm had been placed on the original Order HQ, the Order could have continued to use it when they re-formed between GoF and OoP, instead of needing new HQ at 12 GP. If Dumbledore himself had placed the Fidelius Charm on the cottage (and perhaps the yard) at Godric's Hollow, the shield *would* have been impenetrable because LV, even if he knew where they were hiding, would not have been able to see or hear them, and in any case, no one would have told him where they were. That the Fidelius Charm was broken was no fault of Dumbledore's or the charm itself; it was the fault of a Secret Keeper who broke the faith that had been placed in him. Pippin: > People may be drawn out of hiding as Harry was in OOP, or they may prefer to rely on their own resources, like Karkaroff and Slughorn, or they may consider that Dumbledore was exaggerating the danger as James and Lily did in dismissing the idea that one of their friends was a traitor, or they may be killed in action like Sirius. I assume the latter is how most of the Order members killed in VWI met their end, just as in VW2. Carol: I'm not sure what your point is. Surely, all those Order members weren't drawn out of the safety of homes protected by the Fidelius Charm. The Potters, so far as we know, are the only people who actually went into hiding, the only ones on whose home or hiding place a Fidelius charm was placed. Sure, restless James could have ventured out without his Invisibility Cloak once DD brilliantly took it away, perhaps trusting to his ability to transform into a stag to protect him (not that he wouldn't be conspicuous wandering around Godric's Hollow in that form! Then, again, he could Apparate to a forest where he could safely run around, assuming that he didn't encounter any humters, and get rid of his pent-up enerby). But while he, Lily, and Harry were actually inside the cottage (and perhaps the grounds), they were perfectly safe from everything but treachery. It's not DD's fault that they chose the wrong Secret Keeper, nor is it the fault of the Fidelius Charm itself, which was locked inside the SK until he chose to reveal it. If the SK had been Dumbledore, they would have been safe. (Just how LV would have been defeated in that case, there being no Prophecy Boy with a soul bit in his forehead and "the power that the Dark Lord knows not" because his mother had died to save him.) Would Dumbledore have found all the Horcruxes by himself? Apparently not. He'd have died from the cursed ring, with no Severus Snape to save him, because Snape would have remained a loyal Death Eater if not for the Prophecy. And if not for the Prophecy, and LV acting to thwart it, there would have been no thirteen-year-respite when the AK fired at the Prophecy backfired and vaporized Voldemort. Events like those in DH (minus Headmaster Snape and HRH) would have taken place much sooner. LV would have taken over the entire British WW, followed by the European WW, and who knows where from there. The Order members were the almost only people fighting him, and they were being picked off one by one. Scrimgeour, Mr. Crouch, and Madam Bones would have been killed sooner. We saw how the WW at large opposed LV. They didn't. The idea that a Prophecy existed did, however, give them hope that *Harry* would save them, and the few who fought at the end did so because of Harry. Pippin: > It was obvious that Harry was still in danger after Voldemort's fall since the DE's might try to take revenge on him, but why should Dumbledore suppose that the DE's would attack the Longbottoms? It still isn't clear why Bella thought they would know where Voldemort was. Carol: True, unless we consider that any at-large DEs would want to attack and kill any remaining Order members (and Aurors) out of revenge or to avoid arrest. But I'm not talking about protection *after* Voldemort's fall (except as it regards the Prophecy Boy). I'm talking about *before* Voldemort's fall. It was only the Potters, Order members both, who were told to go into hiding because LV was specifically targeting them, and only the Potters who were (belatedly) told to use a Fidelius Charm, which DD himself offered to perform. Why would that be the case unless Dumbledore *believed* that Harry was or would by some means become the Prophecy Boy, "the one with the power to vanquish Voldemort"? He could not foretell that the Fidelius Charm would be broken or that LV would break his own promise to Snape to spare Lily, setting up the Love magic resulting from her self-sacrifice. It seems to me that, at first, Dumbledore ignored the Prophecy, doing nothing beyond taking Trelawney under his protection. Then, told by Snape how LV interpreted the Prophecy and prompted by Snape's desperate pleas (and his promise to do "anything") to take action to protect the Potters, DD sent them into hiding. He may at that point have started to take the Prophecy seriously. Sure, Harry was in danger, but so were many other people, including innocent children. But *what if* the Prophecy was valid? What if Harry Potter really was "the one with the power"? Best to take extraordinary measures to protect him. Hence, the Fidelius Charm suggestion. And when that failed, DD would see parts of the Prophecy (other than "born as the seventh month dies") coming true. And he would study the Prophecy in all its implications, deciding that Harry must be protected rather than kidnapped and killed by his supposed DE godfather, and how best to go about it using the very magic suggested by the Prophecy, Love magic. As for what powers Harry would share with LV that made him LV's "equal," powers that must reside in the place where he was "marked," only time would tell. IMO, Dumbledore, like LV, believed that Harry was or might be "the one with the power." Consequently, he not only protected him (rather than letting the soul bit be destroyed at the first opportunity) but tested and trained him, as he would not have done if he had no faith in the Prophecy, part of which had already been fulfilled at Godric's Hollow. Had he never heard the Prophecy, of course, events would have been entirely different (as they would have been if another DE had overheard the Prophecy and relayed it to LV without remorse). Whether DD actually believed the Prophecy or only thought that it might come true after LV acted on it and "mark[ed Harry] as his equal," he acted *as if* he believed it, which, ultimately, is all that matters. The very existence of the Prophecy (which, of course, is fulfilled in the end) shapes the story. If there had been no Prophecy, the Potters would not have gone into hiding. They would have been targeted like any other Order members and probably would not have survived. Harry might have been killed like the McKinnon children. If he survived, orphaned or not, and attended Hogwarts, it would have been a Hogwarts run by LV, with only one House, Slytherin. He would have had no special powers, only those he inherited from his parents. DD, perhaps the lone survivor among those who had opposed Voldemort, would have died from the ring curse, not even having the opportunity to find the fake locket and be killed alone in the cave. Or DD could have heard the Prophecy, which was overheard and reported to LV by a DE other than Snape, but not believed it at that point. Without Snape to tell him that LV was specifically targeting the Potters, he would not have sent them into hiding and suggested the Fidelius Charm. The Potters, including Harry, would have been killed because LV had made no promise to Snape to protect Lily. Oops. No story, or at least no story of Harry Potter. There would be no Chosen One, no boy with a soul bit in his scar that gave him powers like Voldemort's, as well as the special protection granted by his mother's self-sacrifice, which differed from the sacrifices of other mothers because she had a chance to live. (No other Prophecy-reporting DE would have made the request that Snape made of LV.) The Prophecy is absolutely central to the story as written. LV's actions, Snape's actions, DD's actions, and Harry's actions are all shaped and partly determined by it, as are the fates of Harry and LV. It's not that they must die because the Prophecy says so, but that knowing all or part of the Prophecy shapes their actions, as do the parts of the Prophecy that come true early on ("born as the seventh month dies," "the power that the Dark Lord knows not," "mark him as his equal"). The scar, tied in with the Prophecy, also shapes the action as the means by which Harry comes to understand Voldemort and the reason why Harry himself must be sacrificed. Love magic again comes into play without that sacrifice. Take qway the Prophecy, and you don't have a book, or, at least, it's a very different book. Carol, not much interested in reading about DE!Snape, ordinary young Wizard!Harry, and master of the WW!Voldemort From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 27 02:32:39 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 02:32:39 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184459 "Oh yes, I do," said Dumbledore mildly. "You almost killed Katie Bell and Ronald Weasley. You have been trying with increasing desperation to kill me all year. Forgive me Draco, but they have been feeble attempts... So feeble, to be honest, that I wonder whether your heart has been really in it" - p.585 Alla: Here is what I found myself wishing for. It is an absurd fantasy of mine, I know, but I can dream, right? I wish Molly and Arthur had been here under invisibility cloak and I wish they heard Dumbledore's cold account that he knew perfectly well who almost killed their son. I would not mind for Katie's parents to be here too, it is just Weasleys I know well. I wonder if we would not have got something similar that Moley said to Bella in book 7. That was my son. You... something. Oh well, dreams, dreams. "Take that!" shouted Professor Mcgonagall, and Harry glimpsed the female Death Eater, Alecto, sprinting away down the corridor with her arms over her head, her brother, right behind her. - p.599 Alla: After reread of this battle I realised that I will cut Minerva a slack as well for her erm...less condemning reaction to Harry's Crucio. I think she wanted both of those guys suffer for a long time starting from this moment. Before questions will be asked, I am cutting her slack as individual who IMO suffered trauma here, not as teacher, who just must have correct reactions all the time. "He had known there was no hope from the moment that the full Body- Bind Curse Dumbledore had placed upon him lifted, known that it could have happened only because its caster was dead, but there was still no preparation for seeing him here, spread-eagled, broken: the greatest wizard Harry had ever, or would ever, meet" - p.608 Alla: And all I can think of now is poor Harry. When I think of the coldness with which Dumbledore just immobilised him to watch the show he arranged to happen (Snape killing him), ugh, it makes me sooo angry at Dumbledore. "And he knew, without knowing how he knew it, that the phoenix had gone, had left Hogwarts for good, just as Dumbledore had left the school, had left the world... had left Harry" - p.632 Alla: Please believe me, I cried every time I read this sentence, I mean I cried for several minutes first time and shed a tear every time I reread it before DH came out. And now all I can spare is giggles. Don't you worry Harry, Dumbledore will be quite nicely pulling strings from beyond or from his strangely smart portrait in book 7. I hated Dumbledore's actions before DH, I was not as I mentioned before particularly surprised by even more revealed manipulativeness and I am just honestly struggling to think what tipped the scales for me. I mean, I know I repeat it again, but I find it amusing how I could not stand *so many of his actions* and still when I was thinking of his character as whole, I thought of him as good man. Oh no more. I think I was hoping that he genuinely cared about people despite necessity of making tough choices. I do not think that he ever cared about anybody any more. I believe that he came to love Harry, sort of. That concludes my HBP reread guys. Thanks for reading my random impressions. Alla From cass_da_sweet at yahoo.com Fri Sep 26 20:57:05 2008 From: cass_da_sweet at yahoo.com (cass_da_sweet) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 20:57:05 -0000 Subject: Protection via Charms and Secret-Keeper Approach In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184460 > zanooda: > > Yeah, but I should have said here that a person needs to be inside > the area protected by the spells, not inside the tent itself :-). > Hermione usually cast the spells first around some perimeter, and > only after that the Trio (or the Duo) erected the tent. cass_da_sweet: I think that Harry simply remembered where the tent was. He had been sitting in the mouth of the tent for hours while on watch. He would know what was around it. Just because no one could see it or hear what was going on inside it doesn't mean that, if they knew it was there, they couldn't walk into it. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 27 04:31:14 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 04:31:14 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184461 Alla quotede: > "He had known there was no hope from the moment that the full Body- Bind Curse Dumbledore had placed upon him lifted, known that it could have happened only because its caster was dead, but there was still no preparation for seeing him here, spread-eagled, broken: the greatest wizard Harry had ever, or would ever, meet" - p.608 > Alla commented: > > And all I can think of now is poor Harry. When I think of the coldness with which Dumbledore just immobilised him to watch the show he arranged to happen (Snape killing him), ugh, it makes me sooo angry at Dumbledore. Carol responds: Dumbledore knows that he's going to die one way or the other--Potion, ring, Draco, DEs, or Snape. He doesn't know for sure that Snape will come or that he will go through with his promise, but if he does, he has to make sure that Harry doesn't interfere. Nor does he know that the split second he takes to freeze Harry will cost him his wand, causing one part of his plan to literally fly out the window. All he knows is that the DEs are coming, and, he hopes, Snape will arrive before it's too late. In the meantime, it's imperative that he talk Draco out of killing him, and he might as well use that time to find out what happened with Draco, so that Harry will know, too. Do you think that Harry would have remained hidden under his Invisibility Cloak as Draco told his story if DD hadn't cast that spell? I don't. I think he would have tried to fight Draco, who might well panic and kill both DD and Harry to carry out his mission. Even if he didn't, if the DEs arrived and found Harry fighting Draco, or if Harry emerged when the DEs arrived to fight them by himself, the consequences would have been disastrous. They would have been equally disastrous if he stayed under cover till Snape came and emerged to fight Snape. Harry did not know Dumbledore's plan. There was no time to tell him even though he twice tried to send him for Severus. Nor did Harry know that Snape was on his and Dumbledore's side. More than Dumbledore's plan would have been ruined if Snape had failed. Not only Snape and Draco and DD could and probably would have been killed, but Harry himself would be in the gravest danger, with no way to find out about the soul bit in his head, and no way to kill Voldemort until it was destroyed. I don't think that freezing Harry was an act of cold calculation. I think it was a desperate move to preserve him at the cost of part of Dumbledore's plan, the part involving ending the Elder Wand's power. > Alla quoting: > "And he knew, without knowing how he knew it, that the phoenix had gone, had left Hogwarts for good, just as Dumbledore had left the school, had left the world... had left Harry" - p.632 > Alla comments: > > Please believe me, I cried every time I read this sentence, I mean I cried for several minutes first time and shed a tear every time I reread it before DH came out. > > And now all I can spare is giggles. Don't you worry Harry, Dumbledore will be quite nicely pulling strings from beyond or from his strangely smart portrait in book 7. > > I hated Dumbledore's actions before DH, I was not as I mentioned before particularly surprised by even more revealed manipulativeness and I am just honestly struggling to think what tipped the scales for me. I mean, I know I repeat it again, but I find it amusing how I could not stand *so many of his actions* and still when I was thinking of his character as whole, I thought of him as good man. > > Oh no more. > > I think I was hoping that he genuinely cared about people despite necessity of making tough choices. I do not think that he ever cared about anybody any more. I believe that he came to love Harry, sort of. Carol: Funny how differently people react. I never *hated* Dumbledore's actions, though some of them annoyed and still annoy me, especially when they involve his high opinion of himself. I did hate Dumbledore himself for awhile, feeling with Harry that DD had betrayed him (and snape). I felt differently after "King's Cross," though I'm the first to admit that it didn't answer all my questions. But giggle? Yes, DD will be pulling strings behind the scenes as a portrait with a most unusual amount of DD's brains and personailty left behind in him. But Harry's loss is devastating. It's not just a loss of his mentor, it's a loss of direction, and it's followed hard by a loss of faith in DD himself thanks to Rita Skeeter's hints and revelations, not to mention the confusing legacy of a Snitch, a Deluminator, and a children's book. It's a loss of Hogwarts, too, and it forces him to go on alone (he thinks) on a seemingly impossible mission against a much more powerful wizard (despite the powers in his scar which in some sense make him LV's "equal," or rather, make vanquishing LV a job that only he can do). I still feel affection for the eccentric side of Dumbledore ("nitwit, blubber, oddment, tweak"), and I think I understand why he acted as he did, not only on the tower and in giving Harry into Petunia's keeping, but with regard to Smape and in many other matters. He was too secretive and manipulative, he was utterly stupid to put on the ring, but, in general, once he reached adulthood and, especially, old age, he did what he thought he had to do to make possible the ultimate defeat of Voldemort. I can't cry for him, but I feel--for him, as for Snape--a sense of loss (and a hope that they're both happy in the afterlife, away from the WW and its woes). Carol, glad that it's no longer torture to read "The Lightning-Struck Tower" From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 27 10:55:14 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 10:55:14 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184462 Carol: But giggle? Yes, DD will be pulling strings behind the scenes as a portrait with a most unusual amount of DD's brains and personailty left behind in him. But Harry's loss is devastating. Alla: Giggle perhaps was a wrong word. I should have said sarcastic laugh. I certainly agree that Harry *thinks* his loss is devastating. I just do not agree with Harry on that. I know he loved Dumbledoree, but Harry would have fallen for any father figure who showed him some affection, IMO. I think he would have been much better off without Dumbledore entering his life. Yes, I know - this would have beem another story, I am talking about them as if they were real people. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Sep 27 17:28:29 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 17:28:29 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184463 Alla: > Here is what I found myself wishing for. It is an absurd fantasy of > mine, I know, but I can dream, right? I wish Molly and Arthur had > been here under invisibility cloak and I wish they heard Dumbledore's cold account that he knew perfectly well who almost killed their son. Pippin: ::sputters:: But Harry *is* there under the invisibility cloak, and Ron is his best friend. He isn't upset, so I don't see why Molly and Arthur would be. Draco had less intention of harming Ron than Lupin did when he transformed into a werewolf, or Sirius did when he broke Ron's leg. As Hagrid says, Hogwarts has always been a dangerous place. I think I am going to start DDAB -- Dumbledore Deserves A Break > Alla: > Before questions will be asked, I am cutting her slack as individual who IMO suffered trauma here, not as teacher, who just must have correct reactions all the time. Pippin: They must? If there aren't enough saints to teach all our children, must they remain ignorant? > Alla: > > And all I can think of now is poor Harry. When I think of the > coldness with which Dumbledore just immobilised him to watch the show he arranged to happen (Snape killing him), ugh, it makes me sooo angry at Dumbledore. Pippin: You're forgetting that Dumbledore would have died, from the poison he had ingested or from the Ring Curse, in any case. If Harry had not been immobilized, he would have tried to attack the DE's, and they would have probably have killed him, not withstanding their orders from Voldemort, to save their own lives. Alla: > I think I was hoping that he genuinely cared about people despite > necessity of making tough choices. I do not think that he ever cared about anybody any more. I believe that he came to love Harry, sort of. Pippin: If he did genuinely care about people but still had to make tough choices, choices that meant people had to suffer or die (because otherwise they wouldn't be tough) what would he have done differently? Cried more? Agonized longer? Who would that help? Pippin From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 27 17:48:22 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 17:48:22 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184464 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Carol: > > But giggle? Yes, DD will be pulling strings behind the scenes as a > portrait with a most unusual amount of DD's brains and personailty > left behind in him. But Harry's loss is devastating. > > > Alla: > > Giggle perhaps was a wrong word. I should have said sarcastic laugh. > > I certainly agree that Harry *thinks* his loss is devastating. I just do not agree with Harry on that. I know he loved Dumbledoree, but Harry would have fallen for any father figure who showed him some affection, IMO. > > I think he would have been much better off without Dumbledore entering his life. Yes, I know - this would have beem another story, I am talking about them as if they were real people. > Carol responds: They do seem like real people, don't they? But real people wouldn't find themselves in such a situation. The closest parallels I can think of are King Arthur and Oedipus. There's also the baby Jesus, whom Herod was trying to kill (BTW, I've never seen historical evidence for the Slaughter of the Innocents, which many people treat as a historical fact), but he (baby Jesus) remained with Mary and Joseph rather than being placed in another family. Maybe you can think of a real-life scenario that would come close, minus the magic, but I can only think of the so-called Princes in the Tower, who were either killed or hidden so well that no one could find them. If Perkin Warbeck had proved himself to be the real Richard Duke of York and defeated Henry VII to become king of England, it would be roughly comparable, but there's no Dumbledore in the picture unless it's the thirty-year-old Richard III, and some people would place him in the role of Voldemort.) Once in a while, a child really is endangered by a megalomaniac who views him as a threat, but that child is seldom taken in hand by a wise old mentor who hides him among Muggles/peasants/ ordinary people who don't know or can't reveal his secret, and neither the child nor the old mentor ever have magical powers in RL (leaving God and the baby Jesus out of the discussion). So we're back to Merlin and the future King Arthur as the closest parallel. At any rate, what would have happened if Dumbledore hadn't entered Harry's life, assuming that Voldemort has heard part of the Prophecy and is specifically targeting Harry? (Without the Prophecy and Snape's information, Harry is merely in "mortal peril" like everyone else associated with the Order or in any way opposed to LV's agenda, but not entitled to Dumbledore's special protection. And DD does try to protect him, sending the Potters into hiding and suggesting the Fidelius Charm even before Harry has any special powers to distinguish him from any other Wizarding child.) What was Dumbledore to do after Harry's parents were killed, assuming that he really believed Harry to be "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" and knew about the soul bit (which, of course, Harry didn't have yet when DD first suggested the Fidelius Charm)? He couldn't risk having Sirius Black claim him since he appeared to be a Death Eater and the betrayer of the Potters. Even if Sirius hadn't gone after Peter and been arrested for (supposedly) killing Peter and twelve Muggles, landing himself in Azkaban, and could somehow have proved to DD that Wormtail, not he, had betrayed the Potters, the DEs would be after both him and Harry and there could be no Lily-based Love magic to protect Harry. (Imagine restless Sirius hiding, out of action, for sixteen years under a Fidelius Charm, unable even to leave the house in dog form until Harry was old enough to go to Hogwarts because Harry would be left unguarded?) Better for DD to place Harry with his Muggle relatives, hidden from anyone in the WW (except an occasional Order member like Mrs. Figg or Dedalus Diggle) with the blood protection preventing any serious injury, at least from Voldemort and his minions, while he was in that house? (Sure, DD could and perhaps should have checked up on him, but I think he trusted that the Love magic and Petunia's promise would prevent serious harm, as would Harry's accidental magic.) Should Dumbledore have treated Harry like everyone else and made sure that he and his friends didn't endanger themselves by wandering the halls at night, entering forbidden forests and corridors and breaking rules? Should he have withheld the Invisibility Cloak (rightfully Harry's) until Harry was older and wiser? Should he (and could he) have kept him out of the TWT when the age line failed to do the job? How could Harry have learned what he would be up against with Voldemort and Dark magic without the experiences of the first four books? And when DD decides to protect him through Occlumency lessons and withholding information, the experiment backfires. In HBP, of course, the excursions into the Pensieve are necessary because LV is back, he will target Harry at some point, and only Harry has the scar connection that will enable him to find the Horcruxes and the ability to speak Parseltongue to open some of them. (I think that DD understands it but doesn't speak it.) The cave is a terrible place, but it, too, prepares Harry for what's to come, and it serves as the test that shows both Harry and DD that Harry is ready to take over from the dying Dumbledore. Without Harry, whose presence doesn't register in the boat, Dumbledore would have died like Regulus in the cave ("One alone could not have done it"). DD could not have taken Snape, whose presence *would* register, nor could Harry have accomplished the task alone. And imagine Harry (or Ron or Hermione) having to drink the horrible potion instead of Dumbledore. Let's see. No Dumbledore in Harry's life. Perhaps he's killed early on and the DEs take over Hogwarts before Harry even enters. Perhaps he ignores the Prophecy, treating Harry like any other student, or protecting him without exposing him to lessons and dangers. (Even a bullying stepfamily and unfair teachers are lessons.) Sure, there's Quidditch and dangerous classes like COMC, but those classes don't appear to be adequate preparation for the other students (especially with a curse on the DADA class). While Dumbledore is not my favorite character, and while I do actually wonder whether he might have sacrificed Horcrux!Harry for the greater good if he hadn't actually believed him to be the Chosen One, I do think that he grew to love Harry and was greatly relieved that he might not have to die thanks to the shared drop of blood. Whether he genuinely cared about his students, other than in terms of the greater good, it's hard to say. I think he counted on Snape and the extra protections that he (DD) had placed on the castle to keep Draco in line, and Draco did stop taking reckless desperation measures after his talk with Snape (the necklace incident had already happened and the poisoned mead was already in Slughorn's hands, but Draco's focus returned to the Vanishing Cabinet after that point). And DD did set up a guard of Order members before he left with Harry for the cave. What else could DD have done, aside from giving people (including Harry and Snape) more information? He couldn't tell Harry the truth about Snape without breaking his word. (But, yes, he should have let him know exactly why he needed, or DD thought he needed, those Occlumency lessons!) Carol, happy that Dumbledore didn't develop into the person he would have been if he and Grindelwald had succeeded in their scheme for world domination! From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 27 18:08:42 2008 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 18:08:42 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184465 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > I think I am going to start DDAB -- Dumbledore Deserves A Break zanooda: Count me in, Pippin :-)! I don't have enough time to write posts lately, with all this post-hurricane stuff going on, but I want to apply for membership in your Dumbledore Deserves A Break club, LOL! From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Sep 27 18:51:53 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 18:51:53 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 24-26 Post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184466 > Carol again: > Possibly. But the Prophecy states that *Harry* will have "the power > that the Dark Lord knows not" (which DD would deduce is Love), Pippin: The prophecy doesn't state anything about *Harry* at all. It states that the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord will have the power that the dark lord knows not. Dumbledore, who already believes in the power of love magic, would not need a prophecy to tell him that. The reader knows that Harry is meant because he is the topic of the books, and we believe the prophecy must come true because we trust its maker, JKR. Dumbledore, however has no reason to believe that just because one part of the prophecy came true, all the others must come true also. Hs's not such a wishful thinker as that. But Dumbledore would already know, like Diary!Riddle, that a loving sacrifice would make a powerful countercurse. He would be able to guess how Lily had died from the simple fact of Harry's survival. And he believed that this protection would remain with Harry for all time, though the prophecy does not say so. "If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. He didn't realize that love as powerful as your mother's leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign...to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection for ever. Quirrell, full of hatred, greed and ambition, sharing his soul with Voldemort, could not touch you for this reason." > Pippin earlier: > > I am not sure why you conclude that Dumbledore was giving > extraordinary protection to the Potters, protection that other people would not get if Dumbledore knew for certain that they were being hunted by Voldemort himself. There is no reason to think that the Order's headquarters in VWI wasn't protected by the secret-keeper spell along with other safe houses just as in VW2. Probably an Auror > was assigned to shadow the Muggle Prime Minister, too. > > Carol: > I disagree. Only the Potters were protected by a Fidelius Charm, which DD suggested to them alone because of Snape's request. He would have been the Secret Keeper himself if they had allowed it. Pippin: ::boggles:: And James and Lily were okay with that? They didn't mind if Dumbledore hung their friends and companions in the Order out to dry, not for the greater good, but because he couldn't be bothered? And yet James still respected him enough to lend him his most precious possession, and Lily refused to believe he had ever had anything to do with Grindelwald? I don't buy it. Carol: And if a Fidelius Charm had been placed on > the original Order HQ, the Order could have continued to use it when > they re-formed between GoF and OoP, instead of needing new HQ at 12 > GP. Pippin: The forgotten Marauder strikes again . Needless to say, using a hideout that Peter had access to wouldn't be a good idea, even with charms to keep him out. > Carol: > I'm not sure what your point is. Surely, all those Order members > weren't drawn out of the safety of homes protected by the Fidelius > Charm. Pippin: Why not? People were not being ambushed at Order Headquarters or in secret-keeper protected locations -- that would have convinced even James that there was a spy. But people can't carry out missions for the Order and hide at the same time. Look at JKR's prequel bit. A secret-keeper protected refuge wouldn't have saved James and Sirius if one of the DE's chasing them had turned out to be Voldemort. They'd never have reached it alive. I think I'm finally beginning to understand something. People must unconsciously expect JKR to follow the rules of popular heroic fantasy: good guys don't die unless a) They're red shirts b) They've done something unworthy and must make amends c) They're heroically saving another more important character d) They've been betrayed >From our point of view, the McKinnons and so on are red shirts, but they were James' and Lily's friends, so according to rule d) they must have been betrayed. And so they were, by Peter. But he's not a very impressive villain, so I guess you'd like it to be Dumbledore instead. But JKR thinks she's writing a war story, and kills characters off when she's finished with 'em just to show that war is hell. Alas. Carol: If the SK had been Dumbledore, they would have > been safe. Pippin: Until Voldemort tricked Dumbledore into revealing the secret, or had Peter kidnap Harry, or used the Imperius curse to make someone else do it, or made them think that Sirius was in danger and they had to go rescue him, and so forth...there are lots of ways to get around it if you think about it. Carol: The idea that a Prophecy existed did, however, give them > hope that *Harry* would save them, and the few who fought at the end > did so because of Harry. Pippin: That's chicken-or-the-egg. Did they believe in Harry because of a prophecy they'd never heard, or did they believe in a prophecy they'd never heard because they believed in Harry? Scrimgeour thinks it's the latter -- he didn't care beans about the prophecy, but he knew people would rally around Harry. Otherwise, he could have spun the alleged prophecy to support the ministry. Pippin From catlady at wicca.net Sat Sep 27 21:41:04 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:41:04 -0000 Subject: Prophecy (was: HBP chapters 24-26 Post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184467 Carol wrote in ; << (I've left out "neiher can live while the other survives" because it makes no sense to me even now. I do have my own interpretation of it, but it doesn't match Harry's interpretation, one will have to kill the other, which fits better with the preceding line, "either must die at the hand of the other." I think JKR just got "neither can live while the other survives" stuck in her head and assigned it a meaning that it can't have, either logically or grammatically.) >> Please share your interpretation of what 'neither can live while the other survives' could mean. Because I can't make anything of it. At the end of PS/SS, Harry asked DD why LV had targetted him, and DD refused to tell him until he is older. As an experienced audience of stories, I (like many others) instantly figured that the Big Bad targets the little child because the Big Bad believes a prophecy that this little child is destined to bring him down. But why would DD refuse to tell Harry that? After a few minutes or a few weeks (I don't remember how long), I figured that this prophecy must not only specify Harry, but specify that he can only kill LV by dying himself, and DD didn't want to tell a young child that he must die young. A statement that 'neither can DIE while the other survives' would convey that meaning, and would be true during their final confrontation. It was clever of Pippin to turn to turn 'neither can live' into 'neither can die' by quoting Fudge about LV in HBP, but it doesn't really work: "Yes, alive," said Fudge. "That is-- I don't know-- is a man alive if he can't be killed? I don't really understand it, and Dumbledore won't explain properly-- but anyway, he's certainly got a body and is walking and talking and killing, so I suppose, for the purposes of our discussion, yes, he's alive." Fudge there suggested the possibility that LV (and therefore Harry during the final confrontation) is not alive because of not being able to be killed, but he concluded that LV (and therefore Harry) was alive despite unkillability. Further, LV and Harry were differently unkillable. LV, having already been killed once, was on magical life support from his Horcruxes. Harry, not having ever been killed yet, was still naturally alive and, as I understand it, he could still be killed by anyone but LV. DD's gimmicky little spell to make Harry safe when in the presence of his mother's blood used 'blood' to mean biological kinship so that Harry had to live with Petunia and Dudley, but also to mean that red stuff (so Harry should have had a reliquary enshrining a dried out fragment of a used tampon -- sorry!) once it was inserted into LV's veins. (Harry's own blood is as much (more!) his mother's blood than Petunia's or Dudley's, but it doesn't keep him safe while in his own veins, not even when splattered on his clothing after being trod on by Draco.) So Harry is safe when in the presence of his mother's blood in the form of his own blood in LV's veins, so he is safe when in the presence of LV, but he could be killed when not in the presence of LV. So telling Harry that the prophecy said 'neither can DIE while the other survives' could have given him dangerous false confidence during the years before it became true (when LV took his blood) and when not in LV's presence. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 27 21:45:15 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:45:15 -0000 Subject: HBP chapters 24-26 Post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184468 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > > Carol again: > > Possibly. But the Prophecy states that *Harry* will have "the power that the Dark Lord knows not" (which DD would deduce is Love), > > Pippin: > The prophecy doesn't state anything about *Harry* at all. It states that the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord will have the power that the dark lord knows not. Dumbledore, who already believes in the power of love magic, would not need a prophecy to tell him that. Carol: If you've read my posts carefully, you know that I've pointed out the ambiguity of Prophecies. I was using "Harry" as shorthand here for the Prophecy Boy. (At any rate, DD knows that it's a boy, and LV assumes that it is.) The Prophecy, at first, is only about a boy who will be "born as the seventh month dies" who is also the child of parents who have "thrice defied" Voldemort. Only two boys fit that picture as of the end of July, 1980. And once LV chooses Harry over Neville and "marks him as his equal," the Prophecy *does* mean Harry. He is "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" who will be/was "born as the seventh month dies. DD knows that "the power that the Dark Lord knows not" is Love, but how would he know that the power of Love will defeat LV, and how would he know that Harry (who, it turns out, is no more or less loving in himself than any other young Wizard) will embody that power? It's only when Lily sacrifices herself (under unique circumstances) that the power of Love gets into Harry's blood. And how would DD, who isn't present at Godric's Hollow, know that Lily sacrificed herself to save Harry if not for the Prophecy? How would he know, or guess, that Harry survived the attack if not for the Prophecy? Why would he send Hagrid to rescue Harry from the ruins if he thought that Harry was an ordinary child who would have died in the attack? *If* Harry survived, it had to be because of the power of Love, which could only, DD deduces, have come about because of Lily's sacrifice. (He knows about LV's promise to Snape to let her live.) If Lily has indeed sacrificed herself, magically saving Harry, then Harry will have "the power that the Dark Lord knows not" in his veins and that power will be his best protection. As for the soon-to-be scar, Dumbledore can only know its significance because he knows the Prophecy. Yes, he knows that LV's soul is unstable because of multiple murders and Horcruxes, but how could he possibly know (or guess) that one such soul bit would lodge itself in Harry's open cut (soon to be a scar) unless he knew that the scar "marks [Harry] as LV's equal." What that means he can only guess, but if it means that Harry has some of LV's powers, they must reside in that scar and they must be the result of a soul bit. DD is, IMO, combining what he already knows about Voldemort (including what Snape has told him) with what he deduces from the Prophecy to arrive at a set of conclusions: Harry, though he may have a soul bit in his scar, must be protected; the best protection is "the power that the Dark Lord knows not," which Harry already has thanks to his mother's sel-sacrifice, but which can be extended using her blood connection to Petunia; Harry, whose survival has already fulfilled parts of the Prophecy, must be watched and trained to prepare him for the day when he must confront Voldemort. Even if he's not "the one with the power," Voldemort believes he is and will come after him. At that point, the soul bit in Harry's head will have to be destroyed. But *if the Prophecy is true,* Harry need not simply be sacrificed. *If* he is "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord," he must be given every opportunity to know his enemy, every bit of training (and, eventually, knowledge) that will enable him to vanquish that enemy, even if it means his own death. (And once DD learns about the shared drop of blood, he dares to hope that Harry can vanquish LV and live.) Harry must not, however, know about the soul bit in his own head until the last minute, at which point he will know that he can only defeat Voldemort by replicating his mother's Love magic, sacrificing himself to destroy the soul bit, a feat that only Harry can accomplish. Only Harry has both "the power that the Dark Lord knows not" and the powers that reside in the scar that "marks him as [LV's] equal. If Harry isn't "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord," then no such person exists. And if he's not that person, DD has no reason to train him to confront Voldemort. The "greater good" would be better served by letting LV or someone else kill Harry, and the soul bit along with him. Pippin: > The reader knows that Harry is meant because he is the topic of the books, and we believe the prophecy must come true because we trust its maker, JKR. Carol: Of course. JKR created the Prophecy so that it would be fulfilled, but not in a way that the reader, or Harry, will necessarily anticipate. that's a given and not a point on which I disagree with you. Pippin: Dumbledore, however has no reason to believe that just because one part of the prophecy came true, all the others must come true also. Hs's not such a wishful thinker as that. Carol: Not wishful. Practical. He would be foolish in the extreme to ignore the possibility that it might well come true. Harry fits the criteria. He's been "marked" as LV's equal, giving him powers that no one else has. He has the power that LV knows not in his blood. That makes it likely in the extreme that Voldemort, in choosing him as the Prophecy Boy, has created his own nemesis. It's a possibility that DD can't afford to ignore, especially as it has already demonstrated itself to be partially true. And if the Prophecy *doesn't* fulfill itself, what does DD have to lose (other than a boy he's developed an affection for)? He can make use of the powers in Harry's scar, he can increase Voldemort's fear of Harry (who will have some protection via the Love magic in his blood), and, if worse comes to worst and LV kills Harry, LV will destroy the soul bit himself). I personally think that DD (whom you've asked us to cut some slack) would not send Harry out on these test missions, or set him up for them, if he didn't believe him to be "the one with the power." Not even the manipulative Dumbledore would make such use of a child unless he really thought that that child would one day prove to be Voldemort's nemesis. Surely, if he thought that he could defeat Voldemort himself, he would have begun his Horcrux hunt much earlier, when the DADA interview made it clear that he'd destroyed his own humanity by making multiple Horcruxes. Yes, he gathered information and tried to prove Tom Riddle guilty of the murders of the Riddle family and Hepzibah Smith. Yes, he organized the Order of the Phoenix in VW1. But he had no real, solid plan until Harry came along. And to use an innocent boy as a weapon *only* because LV believed him to be "the one with the power" without believing so himself would be the ultimate folly, not to mention inexcusable wickedness very much like raising him as "a pig to the slaughter." As I said earlier, we can't know exactly what Dumbledore thought, but he certainly behaves *as if* he believes that the Prophecy either will or can come true. And by encouraging Harry to believe that the confrontation is inevitable, Prophecy or no Prophecy, he insures that "either must die at the hand of the other" will indeed come about, preferably with Voldemort being the one who dies. (That Harry and no one else can be involved in this final conflict is determined by the soul bit residing in the "mark" that LV gave him.) Dumbledore arranges with Snape that Snape will reveal the existence of the soul bit to Harry at the point when LV is protecting Nagini (which DD knows he'll do when he knows that his Horcruxes are in danger). In so doing, Dumbledore is making sure that Harry uses Love magic--self-sacrifice that replicates his mother's--to defeat Voldemort. He is *trusting* that Harry is "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" and that he will do so, not by firing an AK but by using "the power that the Dark Lord knows not." Like Lily, who didn't know the power of her own sacrifice, Harry will not know the power of his, but he will do it because he has to, because DD has trained him to believe that LV must be destroyed and that it's his mission to do so, not through "murder" but through destruction of the soul bit in his scar. Pippin: > But Dumbledore would already know, like Diary!Riddle, that a loving sacrifice would make a powerful countercurse. He would be able to guess how Lily had died from the simple fact of Harry's survival. And he believed that this protection would remain with Harry for all time, though the prophecy does not say so. Carol: The Prophecy *does* state that "he will have the power that the Dark Lord knows not," which certainly indicates that the power of Love will stay with Harry. (Obviously, he doesn't know about the role that the drop of shared blood will play, and I doubt that he anticipates Harry's self-sacrifice at this point.) But the trouble that he takes to protect Harry and only Harry using blood protection and so forth, as well as the training that he gives to Harry and only Harry (including his friends on occasion as useful companions who supplement Harry's strengths) indicate that he believes that Harry and only Harry can ultimately defeat Voldemort. Why protect Harry using Love Magic only if LV is targeting him once LV has been vaporized? Why anticipate that the scar might prove useful (as he tells McGonagall) if he doesn't know that, through it, LV has marked Harry as his equal? Wouldn't he, if he has guessed without the Prophecy, that Harry has a soul bit in his scar, be more inclined to believe that the soul bit is dangerous? We're not talking about a humanitarian who has Hagrid rescue Harry from the rubble out of the kindness of his heart. If that were the case, putting him in the care of a loving wizarding family (and warning them to protect him because the DEs might want to kill him) would be the way to go. Or he might take Alla's preferred route and actually talk to Sirius Black to see if some sort of arrangements could be made to determine Black's innocence and place Harry in his custody. But Dumbledore is concerned with the WW as a whole, not with one little boy who's lost his parents, even one who has miraculously survived an AK and will be regarded as a hero by the WW. DD is concerned with Harry's survival because he believes or hopes that Harry will one day be able to do what he himself, with all his intellect and power cannot, vanquish the Dark Lord. For that reason--not humanitarian goodness or fondness for the dead Potters or joy at the miracle of Harry's survival or guilt regarding his failure to keep his promise to Snape to "protect them"--he takes special precautions to protect Harry. He is certainly not protecting the precious bit of Voldemort's soul, which must ultimately be destroyed. He's protecting the one who *may* have the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, who certainly at this point (through no virtue of his own) has "the power that the Dark Lord knows not," and who has been marked as Voldemort's equal, giving him unique powers that may make the scar useful rather than dangerous if Harry is properly guided and directed. Carol: > > I disagree. Only the Potters were protected by a Fidelius Charm, which DD suggested to them alone because of Snape's request. He would have been the Secret Keeper himself if they had allowed it. > > Pippin: > ::boggles:: And James and Lily were okay with that? They didn't mind if Dumbledore hung their friends and companions in the Order out to dry, not for the greater good, but because he couldn't be bothered? And yet James still respected him enough to lend him his most precious possession, and Lily refused to believe he had ever had anything to do with Grindelwald? > > I don't buy it. Carol: Boggle if you like, but I see no evidence that anyone else went into hiding or received extra protection. (I have no idea how James and Lily reacted, but DD must have persuaded them that either they or Harry were being specifically targeted. All we know is that they *d8d* go into hiding and that they *did* tell him that they wanted Sirius Black as SK (and later changed their minds). We hear of no other Secret Keepers, no other Fidelius Charms, and lots of dead Order members. Unless, of course, you can provide canon to the contrary. (As for why they trusted DD with the Invisibility Cloak yet didn't make him their Secret Keeper, you'll have to ask JKR.) > > Carol: > And if a Fidelius Charm had been placed on the original Order HQ, the Order could have continued to use it when they re-formed between GoF and OoP, instead of needing new HQ at 12 GP. > > Pippin: > The forgotten Marauder strikes again . Needless to say, using a hideout that Peter had access to wouldn't be a good idea, even with charms to keep him out. Carol: Okay, good point. You could be right on this count. But you still have all those dead Order members (whose whereabouts were no doubt revealed by the forgotten Marauder) to account for. The entire McKinnon family died--*after* the Potters went into hiding. Evidently, DD didn't provide them with a safe house or suggest a Fidelius Charm to them. DD provided special protection to the Potters because Snape told him how LV interpreted the Prophecy and because he had promised Snape to "protect her--them." He had not provided any such protection before that point and seems not to have provided any afterwards. Whether he himself put any faith in the Prophecy at that time, we don't know, but Snape's words would have recalled it to his mind. And once Harry had survived the AK by the power of Love and been "marked" as Voldemort's equal, he must have pondered it even more deeply. Dumbledore was not one to ignore a possibility because of his own prejudice against Divination as a school subject. We saw him studying his own thoughts and memories, everything that could have a bearing on the mysterious happenings at Hogwarts in GoF. I'm quite sure that he put equal thought into the reasons for Harry's survival at Godric's Hollow, what should be done with him, and how best to protect him if, indeed, he should be protected rather than sacrificed because of the soul bit. And where better to find the answers than the Prophecy, already partially fulfilled? Pippin: > People were not being ambushed at Order Headquarters or in secret-keeper protected locations -- that would have convinced even James that there was a spy. But people can't carry out missions for the Order and hide at the same time. ,snip> Carol: We don't know that there were any other SK-protected locations, assuming that you're correct about Order HQ. And since, as you say, people can't carry out missions for the Order and hide at the same time, most likely no one but the Potters was in hiding. James didn't carry out any missions from Godric's Hollow. DD had somehow persuaded him to stay put. (Maybe that was one reason why he "borrowed" the Invisibility Cloak--to keep James safely at home!) As for James not believing there was a spy, he probably thought, as Sirius did, that it was Remus (who was not told about the Secret Keeper switch). Pippin: > I think I'm finally beginning to understand something. People must unconsciously expect JKR to follow the rules of popular heroic fantasy: good guys don't die unless > > a) They're red shirts > b) They've done something unworthy and must make amends > c) They're heroically saving another more important character > d) They've been betrayed > > From our point of view, the McKinnons and so on are red shirts, but they were James' and Lily's friends, so according to rule d) they must have been betrayed. And so they were, by Peter. But he's not a very impressive villain, so I guess you'd like it to be Dumbledore instead. Carol: My turn to boggle. Please, please, please don't try to figure out what I think, because you clearly have no idea how my mind works. I've just spent about two or three posts defending Dumbledore from Alla's aspersions, and now you think that I want him to be the villain? I agree with you that he's practical, not prone to wishful thinking. We know that he's manipulative and that he expects sacrifices (including his own life). It makes no sense that he would send all his Order members into hiding. He wouldn't have hidden the Potters if it weren't for special circumstances. As for the "rules" you've just listed, they have no bearing on my thinking. I certainly don't think that they deserved to die or that they were heroically saving another character or that they're "red shirts," a term I've never used in my life. The Order members who died, other than the Potters, died because, as Lupin informed Harry in OoP, Voldemort was picking them off one by one. And since Wormtail had been spying for Voldemort for at least a year, we can assume that he was LV's source of information. The Potters would, no doubt, have been targeted in their turn, but I see no reason to assume that they would have received special protection had it not been for the Prophecy (or Snape's information, if you prefer--it still boils down to the influence of the Prophecy on the action). Quite simply, I see no evidence that DD protected any other Order members. They had joined the Order knowing that they might die in the fight against Voldemort. They knew that LV was targeting Order members (though perhaps the idea that they be next on the list never occcurred to them). Pippin: > But JKR thinks she's writing a war story, and kills characters off when she's finished with 'em just to show that war is hell. Alas. Carol: Very true. But what it has to do with my points regarding Dumbledore and the Prophecy escapes me. > Carol earlier: > If the SK had been Dumbledore, they would have been safe. > > Pippin: > Until Voldemort tricked Dumbledore into revealing the secret, or had Peter kidnap Harry, or used the Imperius curse to make someone else do it, or made them think that Sirius was in danger and they had to go rescue him, and so forth...there are lots of ways to get around it if you think about it. Carol: I should have said, they *might* have been safe--safer, certainly, than they were with a DE as SK. I doubt that LV could have tricked DD into revealing the Secret, but, sure, Peter might have managed to kidnap Harry. And then the Prophecy would not have come true because there would have been no Love magic to save Harry, and we'd have had no story. (I think that's the reason that JKR didn't make DD the SK. She needed a traitor, just as she needed an eavesdropper who was in love with Lily.) None of this has any bearing on Dumbledore's motivation, however. > Carol earlier: > The idea that a Prophecy existed did, however, give them hope that *Harry* would save them, and the few who fought at the end did so because of Harry. > > Pippin: > That's chicken-or-the-egg. Did they believe in Harry because of a prophecy they'd never heard, or did they believe in a prophecy they'd never heard because they believed in Harry? Scrimgeour thinks it's the latter -- he didn't care beans about the prophecy, but he knew people would rally around Harry. Otherwise, he could have spun the alleged prophecy to support the ministry. Carol: They believed in a prophecy because the Hall of Prophecy had been broken into. The idea that Harry might be "the Chosen One" (a term that had not been used before--it had previously been "the Boy who Lived") gave them hope. that's canon. And it's only one small way in which the Prophecy shapes the action of the story. Without the Prophecy, there's no Fidelius Charm to be breached, no attack on Godric's Hollow because of Peter's treachery, no Snape storyline. If the Potters are killed, it's only as ordinary Order members, and their ordinary son is either orphaned or killed along with them. There's no scar that "marks" Harry as Voldemort's equal because without Snape begging LV to spare Lily, there's no Love magic in Lily's sacrifice. There's no plot in OoP except the Umbridge storyline, and no reason for Sirius Black to die (or Harry to inherit Kreacher). There's no reason to believe that Harry has any reason other than revege for fighting Voldemort, much less going after the Horcruxes. There's no reason for DD to train and test Harry unless he has strong reason to believe that Harry is indeed the Chosen One. The Prophecy, and Snape's reporting it to LV, sets the story in motion. The story ends (setting aside the epilogue and a few details like the infamous request for a sandwich) with the fulfillment of the Prophecy. Like it or not, the Prophecy is a central motif, perhaps *the* central motif (other than the scar and its powers, which are tied in with it). Even though we readers don't encounter the Prophecy until the end or OoP (though it's foreshadowed when DD refers to her PoA prophecy as bringing her total of *real predictions* to two), its existence in the backstory is crucial and makes sense not only of LV's actions (he was trying to kill Harry specifically, though James would have died, too, and Lily would have been spared only because of Snape) but of Snape's motives (without Snape as repentant eavesdropper, where is the Snape storyline?) and of Dumbledore's special treatment of Harry. Carol, who does *not* see DD as a villain, only as placing the greater good above the good of the individual, even if the individual in question is a fifteen-month-old toddler > > Pippin > From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 27 22:07:52 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 22:07:52 -0000 Subject: Prophecy (was: HBP chapters 24-26 Post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184469 Carol earlier: > > << (I've left out "neiher can live while the other survives" because it makes no sense to me even now. I do have my own interpretation of it, but it doesn't match Harry's interpretation, one will have to kill the other, which fits better with the preceding line, "either must die at the hand of the other." I think JKR just got "neither can live while the other survives" stuck in her head and assigned it a meaning that it can't have, either logically or grammatically.) >> Catlady: > Please share your interpretation of what 'neither can live while the other survives' could mean. Because I can't make anything of it. Carol again: The only interpretation that makes sense to me (and it doesn't seem to be what JKR had in mind) is that both Harry and LV are just surviving, not living, until one or the other dies. With LV, we can argue that he isn't truly alive (IIRC, both Fudge and Hagrid say something along those lines: the human part of him is largely destroyed and he can't be killed). He's lost seven/eighths of his soul (accepting JKR's math and counting the soul bit in Harry as one of the lost soul bits). The loss of whatever human nature he once had before all those murders and Horcruxes is reflected in his snakelike appearance. He has few human emotions and loves no one except himself and his dear Nagini, whose snake nature mirrors and parallels his. In that sense, Voldemort isn't living; he's just surviving. With Harry, the case is less clear-cut, but his life is certainly different from that of his normal friends (those without his destiny or a soul bit in their heads). As long as Voldemort survives, he, too, will be just surviving, unable to live a full life because the coming conflict with Voldemort shapes most of his thoughts and actions and prevents him from making long-term plans or commitments. (He gives up his relationship with Ginny and his last year at Hogwarts--admittedly, not much of a sacrifice with Dumbledore gone--and sets aside his plans to be an Auror to concentrate on finding the Horcruxes and defeating Voldemort.) I'm not sure that killing Harry (and one of his own soul bits!) would have enabled Voldemort to truly live. Possibly only repentance could have done that, and I'm not sure, JKR to the contrary, that remorse or repentance could have brought the soul pieces back together once they'd been destroyed. But Harry is a different matter. Once LV is destroyed, by Harry's hand but not through an act of murder, Harry can truly live, which is what the much-maligned epilogue is all about. Obviously, however, neither Harry nor JKR interprets the line in this way. She, or the narrator, assigns it the role that I would have given to "either must die at the hand of the other," which could be read as Harry reads the Prophecy as a whole to mean that he must either murder or be murdered. (Trust JKR to find a way out of that one!) Carol, who thinks that JKR just liked the way the line sounded and chose the wrong line for Harry to keep repeating From tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com Sat Sep 27 22:19:40 2008 From: tommy_m_riddle at yahoo.com (tommy_m_riddle) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 22:19:40 -0000 Subject: Prophecy (was: HBP chapters 24-26 Post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184470 Catlady: > Please share your interpretation of what 'neither can live while the > other survives' could mean. Because I can't make anything of it. Sarah: I don't know either. Many people explain it with a non-literal definition of "live," but that doesn't really sit right with me either. Maybe what Voldemort is doing is not "living," but his mode of existence would not change all that much if he killed Harry dead for good. I can't accept that Harry has not been truly living his life up to the point of killing Voldemort. His mission occupies much of his consciousness, to be sure. But he also goes about usual business like finding out he is a wizard, going to school, playing sports, making lifelong friends, falling in love, etc. I can't think that he hasn't been "living" all this time. The "third man" interpretation of the prophecy would have settled all this neatly, but alas, it was not to be. Catlady: > But why would DD refuse to tell Harry that? After a few minutes or a > few weeks (I don't remember how long), I figured that this prophecy > must not only specify Harry, but specify that he can only kill LV by > dying himself, and DD didn't want to tell a young child that he must > die young. Sarah: I think the reason is just suspense. When Harry found out the prophecy and everyone was interpreting it that Harry must kill Voldemort or be killed by Voldemort, I was like, "Seriously, these characters are surprised by this? What are they, new?" Catlady: > A statement that 'neither can DIE while the other survives' would > convey that meaning, and would be true during their final > confrontation. Sarah: Yes, it would be accurate, and make sense. But, it would also cut down on the suspense. The prophecy reveal is around a full two books before Harry figures out he has to die. I suppose 'figures out' is the wrong phrase there, but at least he didn't throw away Snape's memories or trip and break the bottles on the way to the Pensieve or something, so I'll give him partial credit there. Catlady: > "Yes, alive," said Fudge. "That is-- I don't know-- is a man alive if > he can't be killed? I don't really understand it, and Dumbledore won't > explain properly-- but anyway, he's certainly got a body and is > walking and talking and killing, so I suppose, for the purposes of our > discussion, yes, he's alive." Sarah: This is the closest I can come to wrapping my mind around the whole "live" thing too. Harry is immortal, therefore he does not live? But (as you elaborated later and I snipped) he's not immortal in all circumstances. Which raises some interesting questions regarding what would happen if Harry had been killed in another way. If Harry is destroyed by walking in front of a bus, I have to think the soul piece wouldn't have died for him and sent him back to earth. Would his corpse then act as a Horcrux? On the other hand, if Harry was bitten by the basilisk in COS and Fawkes didn't show up, I have to think the poison would have taken care of both Harry and the soul slice. From catlady at wicca.net Sat Sep 27 22:52:21 2008 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 22:52:21 -0000 Subject: Fred & George's Business In-Reply-To: <68D14768F1B34024991B2FD4F6933C48@Marianne> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184471 Marianne wildirishrose asked in : << How did Fred and George continue running their joke shop out of Aunt Muriel's house if it was under very strong magic, and Mr. Weasley is the Secret Keeper. Wouldn't MM and DE see all the owls coming and going and intercept them? I highly doubt the joke stuff would be any use to DE and MM, but it would be an inconvenience to G&F if they didn't get money. Plus, because of the comings and goings of all the owls, wouldn't the MM and DE have an idea where the Weasleys are in hiding at, and couldn't they use some really strong magic and get through the enchantments and get to them? >> There already is canon in HBP that the joke stuff was of use to Death Eaters (the Peruvian Darkness Powder used by Draco) and to Ministry staff, who buy Shield Hats, Cloaks, and Gloves because they never learned to cast a decent Shield Charm. Rowling's website FAQs say in : << Q: In 'Prisoner of Azkaban', why couldn't the Ministry of Magic have sent Sirius an owl, and then followed it, to find him? A: Just as wizards can make buildings unplottable, they can also make themselves untraceable. Voldemort would have been found long ago if it had been as simple as sending him an owl! >> Personally, I think post owls fly through 'hyperspace' (something like where you are while Apparating) for most of their mail delivery travel, and therefore the only chance of seeing them, following them, intercepting them, is right near the departure and arrival points. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 27 23:04:13 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 23:04:13 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184472 > Pippin: > ::sputters:: But Harry *is* there under the invisibility cloak, and > Ron is his best friend. He isn't upset, so I don't see why Molly and > Arthur would be. Draco had less intention of harming Ron than Lupin > did when he transformed into a werewolf, or Sirius did when he broke > Ron's leg. As Hagrid says, Hogwarts has always been a dangerous place. Alla: Ron is not Harry's son. Pippin: > I think I am going to start DDAB -- Dumbledore Deserves A Break Alla: LOL. I am going to start Characters deserve a break from Dumbledore > > > Alla: > > > Before questions will be asked, I am cutting her slack as individual > who IMO suffered trauma here, not as teacher, who just must have > correct reactions all the time. > > Pippin: > They must? If there aren't enough saints to teach all our children, > must they remain ignorant? Alla: I was **defending** Minerva, Pippin. > Pippin: > You're forgetting that Dumbledore would have died, from the poison he > had ingested or from the Ring Curse, in any case. If Harry had not > been immobilized, he would have tried to attack the DE's, and they > would have probably have killed him, not withstanding their orders > from Voldemort, to save their own lives. Alla: You are not seriously suggesting that I forgot such major plot points. Just in case - I did not forget. And notwithstanding that I see no reason for Dumbledore making sure Harry sees all of that and receives such heartbreak. Send him away Dumbledore and then do what you wish IMO. > Alla: > > I think I was hoping that he genuinely cared about people despite > > necessity of making tough choices. I do not think that he ever cared > about anybody any more. I believe that he came to love Harry, sort of. > > Pippin: > If he did genuinely care about people but still had to make tough > choices, choices that meant people had to suffer or die (because > otherwise they wouldn't be tough) what would he have done differently? > Cried more? Agonized longer? Who would that help? > Alla: You asked. :-) Well, cared about people, but had to make tough choices in my book does NOT mean make those choices without people's consent and without giving them enough information to choose themselves whether they agree or not especially in the matters of life and death. Care about people, but making tough choices in my book means for example if one just MUST place a baby in his relatives' care ( I am putting aside whole Sirius' angle, for a while, does not mean that I agree with that), one must must must to make sure that he is checking upon that baby's wellfare. Care about people but making tough choices means in my book sharing information with the people about what they are facing, and making sure that your Tools trust each other. In fact that means in my book making sure that people are NOT tools for you and you just do not go ahead and betray the plan to Voldemort for I am still not sure which reason. I feel that Moody died specifically because Dumbledore made sure he will ( not him specifically but whatever person will fall in that raid). Hmmm, oh yes, if you decide to put the ring stupidly on you and now think that your death will be useful, you do not, do not, do not ask the man who does not want to do it ( HA, I of all people now have no doubt whatsoever that Snape was not playing or anything, that he really did not want to kill Dumbledore) If you need to, you commit suicide. Oh and how about not raising a boy as a pig for slaughter? So, I guess in my book caring about people, but making tough choices does mean acting a bit differently than Dumbledore did. JMO, Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 27 23:47:26 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 23:47:26 -0000 Subject: Prophecy (was: HBP chapters 24-26 Post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184473 Sarah wrote: > This is the closest I can come to wrapping my mind around the whole "live" thing too. Harry is immortal, therefore he does not live? But (as you elaborated later and I snipped) he's not immortal in all circumstances. Which raises some interesting questions regarding what would happen if Harry had been killed in another way. If Harry is destroyed by walking in front of a bus, I have to think the soul piece wouldn't have died for him and sent him back to earth. Would his corpse then act as a Horcrux? On the other hand, if Harry was bitten by the basilisk in COS and Fawkes didn't show up, I have to think the poison would have taken care of both Harry and the soul slice. Carol responds: The soul bit in Harry didn't keep Harry alive. It was one of seven pieces of Voldemort's soul that kept *Voldemort* alive (or, at any rate, anchored to earthly existence). As long as Harry lived/survived, *Voldemort* couldn't die. Harry, however, could have been killed by Quirrell's hex causing his broom to throw him off (if not for Snape's countercurse) or by the Basilisk's bite (if not for Fawkes's tears) or by Voldemort's AK (if not for the Priori Incantatem caused by the conflict of the brother wands). He might also have been saved in GoF by the same thing that enabled him to come back from King's Cross in DH, the drop of his blood in Voldemort's veins. But that drop wasn't there before GoF, and exactly what would have happened to Harry if it weren't for the Priori Incantatem is unclear. (Imagine Harry going to King's Cross with no Dumbledore to meet him. Would he have known that he didn't have to go on to the next great adventure?) at any rate, there's no accidental Horcrux in Voldemort anchoring Harry's soul to earth. Only the dorp of Harry's blood in Voldemort's veins gave them a shared life and made it possible for Harry to survive as long as Harry did. Oddly, it also kept Voldemort's soul trapped in the afterlife in mutilated form as long as Harry remained there. He couldn't die until the last Horcrux (Nagini) was destroyed, but he couldn't come back to himself till Harry did. Until they share a drop of blood (which LV thinks will enable him to share the Love magic in Harry's blood and which does enable him to touch Harry, as Quirrell!mort could not), it's only Voldemort who can't die till all the soul bits are destroyed. At that point, Harry becomes unknowingly immortal--though the AK destroys his soul bit and sends him to King's Cross, giving him a choice somewhat similar to that of a ghost except that he retains his own body. Once all the soul bits and Voldemort himself are destroyed, Harry is mortal again, and clean and whole. You've raised the question of whether the soul bit would die with Harry if he died under normal circumstances. I think it would. All that's necessary for the destruction of a Horcrux in normal circumstances is for its container to be destroyed, and unlike the deliberately created Horcruxes on which an encasement spell has been cast, Harry's body can be destroyed without the aid of Basilisk venom or Fiendfyre. If he dies, the soul bit dies, IMO, just as the stray soul bit at Godric's Hollow would have done if it hadn't lodged itself in the living Harry as opposed to the corpses of the adults. (LV would not have been in such a hurry to kill him if he'd known about the soul bit!) I'm also wondering whether the drop of shared blood protected Harry from death at the hands of someone other than Voldemort. (Harry's wand wouldn't protect him from AKs cast by anyone but Voldemort, or someone using Voldemort's wand, but does the blood protection also apply only to Voldemort? Quirrell, after all, was being possessed by Voldemort when Harry's touch burned his skin.) Snape asks, "So the boy . . . the boy must die?" and DD responds, "And Voldemort must do it himself, Severus. that is essential." It sounds as if someone other than Voldemort could kill Harry without enabling him to return. (and, obviously, the Love magic wouldn't be triggered unless he voluntarily sacrificed himself to destroy the soul bit.) Not that any of this makes sense of "neither can live while the other survives," which I've already attempted to explain in my response to Catlady. Well, not explain, just answer Catlady's question about how I interpreted it. I still think that the Prophecy is the single event from which everything else springs. Without it, there would have been only a single, ongoing Voldie war with no self-sacrifice by Lily or Harry, no Vapormort, no Boy who Lived, no scar, no DDM!Snape, no framework around which to structure the seven books. We might have had "Albus Dumbledore and the Order of the Phoenix," with all the adults except Snape playing more satisfactory roles, but Harry Potter, if he survived, would be just another Hogwarts student, of no more importance than Justin Finch-Fletchley or, alas, Theodore Nott. Carol, counting posts to make sure that this is only her fourth! From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Sep 28 16:57:19 2008 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 28 Sep 2008 16:57:19 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 9/28/2008, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1222621039.77.36366.m47@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 184474 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday September 28, 2008 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2008 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Sep 28 18:56:43 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 18:56:43 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184475 > Alla: > > Ron is not Harry's son. Pippin: Harry sends his son to school with the son of Draco, who evidently still thinks that ruthless killing is a sign of strength. As for Molly and Arthur, they put their children in more danger by joining the Order than Dumbledore did by leaving Draco at large. That's not a criticism. I think that they did the right thing. But if they only did it to protect Harry and they would have let another innocent child be murdered to save their son, then they're no better than DE!Snape or Narcissa. > Alla: > And notwithstanding that I see no reason for Dumbledore making sure > Harry sees all of that and receives such heartbreak. Send him away > Dumbledore and then do what you wish IMO. Pippin: It's already been pointed out that Dumbledore tried to send Harry away twice. Can you explain how Dumbledore could have sent Harry away once he had lost his wand? > Alla: > > You asked. :-) > > Well, cared about people, but had to make tough choices in my book > does NOT mean make those choices without people's consent and without giving them enough information to choose themselves whether they agree or not especially in the matters of life and death. Pippin: It's true that Dumbledore should have had the moral courage to reveal the full plan to Harry, or at least to tell him that there were still parts he had to keep back. I think it's important to recognize that as a failing, and the book does so. But that has nothing to do with not caring about people, IMO. Dumbledore was trying to protect Harry from himself, when he should have already known that Harry had more innate moral courage than Dumbledore himself had ever had. As for the situation in HBP, everyone knew that they were in danger and that Dumbledore might no longer be able to protect them. It was certainly no secret that there were people at Hogwarts whom Voldemort wanted dead. Everyone could see that Dumbledore had grown weaker. Dumbledore told the students that they were in danger from Voldemort, echoing what the Ministry had already said, and that despite the efforts of the faculty to protect them, they would have to look out for themselves. He did not hide that he was often away from Hogwarts. The necklace and poison attacks were not kept secret, only the identities of the person that Dumbledore suspected and of the intended victim. Since Draco did not personally attack anybody (except Harry who was spying on him) knowing that Draco was trying to kill Dumbledore would not have made anyone safer. It would not have prevented Katie from taking the package nor Slughorn from purchasing the mead. We did not know, when we first read HBP, *why* Dumbledore was sure it was Draco. It seemed that Dumbledore had believed Harry after all, but now we know that it was thanks to Snape's information. Without independent and *convincing* evidence that Draco was involved in the attacks, a move against Draco would not only compromise Draco but Snape too. That would leave the students in far more danger than Draco could manage with his feeble attempts at harm. Would it be caring about people to leave Hogwarts to the Carrows? I do not see that Dumbledore concealed from Molly or Arthur or anyone else that their children weren't completely safe. They had the option of sending their children elsewhere if they didn't trust Dumbledore's judgment on how to protect them. Alla: > > Care about people, but making tough choices in my book means for > example if one just MUST place a baby in his relatives' care ( I am > putting aside whole Sirius' angle, for a while, does not mean that I agree with that), one must must must to make sure that he is checking upon that baby's wellfare. Pippin: He did check. He says he watched over Harry very carefully. He did not try to bully or bribe the Dursleys into treating Harry any better. But canon shows us that bullying doesn't help in the long run, and that bribes have a way of growing until they're insupportable. Alla: > Care about people but making tough choices means in my book sharing > information with the people about what they are facing, and making > sure that your Tools trust each other. In fact that means in my book making sure that people are NOT tools for you and you just do not go ahead and betray the plan to Voldemort for I am still not sure which reason. I feel that Moody died specifically because Dumbledore made sure he will ( not him specifically but whatever person will fall in that raid). Pippin: If Dumbledore plans only for the likely scenario, then he will fail when the worst case scenario occurs. The worst case scenario is not a few DE's keeping an eye on Privet Drive, as Moody thinks is likely. The worst case scenario is that Voldemort himself is watching Privet Drive. He doesn't have to hang around being undetectable, although he could. We know, thank you Albus, that Privet Drive can be observed from afar. Voldemort himself mentions this in GoF. Voldemort may not be able to penetrate the perimeter, but he can probably tell when Harry does. In that worst case, nothing will be given away if Voldemort learns in advance when Harry will be leaving. Perhaps under Dumbledore's plan some of Harry's protectors will die who could have lived if the best case scenario happened, but that's not under Dumbledore's control. Under the worst case scenario, it's likely that they will *all* die -- unless some action is taken to confuse Voldemort and give Harry a chance to escape. Alla: > Hmmm, oh yes, if you decide to put the ring stupidly on you and now > think that your death will be useful, you do not, do not, do not ask the man who does not want to do it ( HA, I of all people now have no doubt whatsoever that Snape was not playing or anything, that he really did not want to kill Dumbledore) > > If you need to, you commit suicide. Pippin: He put the Ring on because he cared about people. He cared about the family he had lost. I suppose Dumbledore could have thrown himself off the parapet, but I don't see how that would have shown that he cares about people. Wouldn't they have seen it as an act of despair? Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 28 19:43:32 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 19:43:32 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look LONG SORRY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184476 Pippin: Since Draco did not personally attack anybody (except Harry who was spying on him) knowing that Draco was trying to kill Dumbledore would not have made anyone safer. Alla: Indeed, but making sure Draco is not a threat in my opinion would have definitely made everybody's safer. Pippin: Without independent and *convincing* evidence that Draco was involved in the attacks, a move against Draco would not only compromise Draco but Snape too. That would leave the students in far more danger than Draco could manage with his feeble attempts at harm. Would it be caring about people to leave Hogwarts to the Carrows? Alla: I think Dumbledore knew what Draco was doing perfectly well; I do not think that he making sure Draco cannot do anything would have somehow compromised Snape, since Dumbledore could have learned about Draco's activities on his own for all Voldemort knows IMO. And how does apprehending Draco translates into leaving Hogwarts to Carrows I am not sure I understand. Pippin: I do not see that Dumbledore concealed from Molly or Arthur or anyone else that their children weren't completely safe. They had the option of sending their children elsewhere if they didn't trust Dumbledore's judgment on how to protect them. Alla: You really do not see a difference between saying in general that your children are not safe here and telling them that I KNOW the identity of the person who is doing these things and because of who your son almost died? Hmmm, I know there is no way to prove it, but I bet that had Molly and Arthur heard something like that, they would have done something. IMO of course. Pippin: It's already been pointed out that Dumbledore tried to send Harry away twice. Can you explain how Dumbledore could have sent Harry away once he had lost his wand? Alla: I think he should have expressly forbid Harry to go to Tower and yes, I am positive that Harry would have obeyed, especially after he obeyed in the cave. Pippin: He did check. He says he watched over Harry very carefully. He did not try to bully or bribe the Dursleys into treating Harry any better. But canon shows us that bullying doesn't help in the long run, and that bribes have a way of growing until they're insupportable. Alla: Um, sorry, in my book checking on the baby's welfare does not mean observing and doing nothing if there is trouble. And speaking about caring about people and making tough choices, I do not think that Dumbledore gets to have it both ways and still be a caring person. If he did not want to bully Dursleys, he IMO should not have given them Harry in the first place. That's way too convenient for Albus dear IMO, because I do not see how he in this situation can care about Harry AND Dursleys, and come out smelling like a rose. IMO if he is giving Harry to Dursleys, he is duty bound to do anything it takes and yes, if necessary bully Dursleys to make sure Harry is treated well. What I am trying to say is that in my opinion by the **act itself of giving Harry to Dursleys** he shown that he does not give a d*mn about their feelings, which is fine by me, if the situation so demands, but now he cannot just disregard how the innocent baby is treated IMO. If he chose to give a baby to unfit guardians, I think now he does not have a luxury to distance him and just let people do whatever they like. And again, this is all notwithstanding that I believe that he should have left Harry with Sirius. I am just for the sake of argument willing to assume that he genuinely believed Sirius is a killer and he could do nothing. In this situation taking Harry to Dursleys is indeed a tough choice, which for the sake of argument ONLY I am willing to entertain. Pippin: He put the Ring on because he cared about people. He cared about the family he had lost. I suppose Dumbledore could have thrown himself off the parapet, but I don't see how that would have shown that he cares about people. Wouldn't they have seen it as an act of despair? Alla: I was talking about him not caring about one person in that instance, the one whom he ordered to do a killing thing. Dumbledore consulted nobody when he decided that he wants to die for the good of the cause, which is again fine by me. But I do not believe that he had any right to insist that person who IMO clearly did not want to do it, because of harming his soul, should have done it. I will be the first one to say that no matter how coldly Dumbledore treated Snape when he came to him eighteen years; Snape as far as I am concerned deserved every minute of it. But eighteen years later? When Snape gave him years of service? No, nothing can convince me that Dumbledore insisting Snape killing him acted any other way than cold bastard. And yes, I think he should have dropped from parapet, or AK himself, in fact why did he not AK himself before he lost his wand? Could it be (and this is of course speculation nothing more) that he did not want to perform another unforgivable curse and wanted other person to harm their soul instead? HMM. I seem to remember when I was so vehemently arguing about Dumbledore and Snape cooking up a plan of killing DD before DH came out and I was proven so completely wrong that one of the main casualties of this storyline to me will not be Severus Snape, I already hated him after all, I seem to remember saying that the main casualty of this storyline to me will be Albus Dumbledore. Yep, I was right as to how I feel now. JMO, Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 28 20:58:43 2008 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 20:58:43 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's request (Was: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look LONG SORRY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184477 Alla wrote: > And yes, I think he should have dropped from parapet, or AK himself, in fact why did he not AK himself before he lost his wand? Carol responds: Thanks for your empathy with Snape on this point! I just want to mention that Dumbledore was trying to end the power of the Elder Wand by leaving it masterless. AKing himself would not serve that purpose because he would still be the wand's master. Snape, however, would not, because he would be following Dumbledore's orders to euthanize him. (I personally don't think that Snape's soul was in danger, but I agree that he absolutely did not want to kill Dumbledore. I think that only his knowledge that everything--Dumbledore's plan, the relative safety of the Hogwarts students, Draco's and Harry's lives--depended on his killing DD persuaded him to heed Dumbledore's plea. And, of course, none of that could happen if he dropped dead for breaking the Unbreakable Vow.) Anyway, murder by the hand of another DE, including Draco, would leave that DE as master of the Elder Wand. Suicide using the Elder Wand or any other form of death, including dying from the combined ring curse and green potion, would leave Dumbledore as master of the wand (unless dying from LV's curse or potion would make *him* master of the wand, which would be even worse). Only death at the hand of another who is killing him as an act of mercy at his own request could, as I understand it, break the power of the wand altogether. If that had happened and LV had somehow obtained the wand, I think he would have found it a useless stick. It wouldn't be a matter of ostensibly disappointing results from a wand that nevertheless served perfectly well as an instrument to commit murder and mayhem (or create a protective bubble for Nagini). It would have no more power, for LV or anyone, than a wooden spoon from Petunia's kitchen. That, IMO, is what Dumbledore was trying to accomplish by having Snape kill him. Instead of using it and then asking Snape (without, in my judgment, due cause) why it wasn't working properly for him, he would have tried it out, found it useless, and thrown it away. Or he might have summoned Snape, thinking him the master of the wand, and asked him to try it only to discover that it didn't work for him, either. And then he might have asked, with reason, "Why doesn't it work for me, Severus? Or for you?" and Snape could have calmly replied, "I don't know, my lord. Perhaps its power died with Dumbledore, just as Fawkes the Phoenix did." And that would be that. Snape would have lived to deliver the news of Harry's soul bit in some ingenious but less dramatic manner. Oh, well. Perhaps not the ending you would have liked, but I suspect it's what Dumbledore hoped would happen. He certainly could not have anticipated what actually occurred to "poor Severus." And he did, I think, have reason for wanting Snape and only Snape to kill him. (Harry would not have done it, nor would Hagrid, whom DD could trust with his life but not his death. Snape alone knew that DD was already dying. He alone would see the necessity of protecting Draco's soul and of saving DD from Fenrir Greyback's teeth. He alone knew that DD needed him as LV's right-hand man and headmaster of Hogwarts to protect the students as best he could after DD was dead. For all those reasons, and despite the risk to his own soul and the hatred with which he would be regarded by the majority of the WW as DD's "murderer," he alone could be persuaded to kill DD at DD's own request. Why DD chose not to tell him about the Elder Wand, I don't know, but possibly just knowing about the Elder Wand would have made Snape master of it once he'd killed DD, and that, of course, was not what DD was after.) Carol, wishing that "KIng's Cross" provided a clearer picture of exactly what DD was trying to accomplish From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun Sep 28 21:18:38 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 21:18:38 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184478 > Alla: > > Here is what I found myself wishing for. It is an absurd fantasy of > mine, I know, but I can dream, right? I wish Molly and Arthur had > been here under invisibility cloak and I wish they heard Dumbledore's > cold account that he knew perfectly well who almost killed their son. > > I would not mind for Katie's parents to be here too, it is just > Weasleys I know well. I wonder if we would not have got something > similar that Moley said to Bella in book 7. That was my son. You... > something. > > Oh well, dreams, dreams. > Potioncat: I've been mulling something over for a while and this post reminded me of it. It's not exactly what you're addressing, but it's close enough. Besides, other have done a better job than I could of explaining DD's actions. Here's my mulled thoughts. After Lockhart nearly wiped Ron's memory, and intended to leave Ginny to die---Molly is still using his book and making reference to it in front of Ginny and Ron. She uses it to mix the doxiecide they used at 12 GP. She also offered Ron a new pet rat for making prefect because he had been so fond of Scabbers----surely she understands "who" Scabbers was and how close he had been to her sons? I've always found both of these behaviors a bit odd. So, I'm not so sure Molly or Arthur would blame DD for Ron's incident. IMO, they would think it was an unfortunate accident and that DD was doing the best he could to protect the students while working against LV. Potioncat, with thoughts of mulled cider in her mind, now and hoping it will start to feel like fall soon. From sherriola at gmail.com Sun Sep 28 21:27:07 2008 From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 14:27:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00db01c921b0$f7030220$4001a8c0@Pensieve> No: HPFGUIDX 184479 > Alla: > > Here is what I found myself wishing for. It is an absurd fantasy of > mine, I know, but I can dream, right? I wish Molly and Arthur had been > here under invisibility cloak and I wish they heard Dumbledore's cold > account that he knew perfectly well who almost killed their son. > > I would not mind for Katie's parents to be here too, it is just > Weasleys I know well. I wonder if we would not have got something > similar that Moley said to Bella in book 7. That was my son. You... > something. > > Oh well, dreams, dreams. > Sherry now: Yes. DD lost his glow for me forever with confirmation in DH, that he had known Draco's task all along and had just let a potential murderer run amuck in a school full of children, even nearly killing two of them. The oh so touching scene in the King's cross chapter of DH did nothing to repair DD's image for me. His actions were unforgivable for me, both in asking Snape to kill him, in letting Draco run loose in the school and, well, don't even get me started on Harry! I had begun having some doubts about DD ever since we learned about Sirius' history, but the revelations in DH finished him for me. Sherry From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Sep 28 23:45:26 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 23:45:26 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look LONG SORRY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184480 > Alla: > > Indeed, but making sure Draco is not a threat in my opinion would > have definitely made everybody's safer. Pippin: Possibly, if everything else remained the same. But it wouldn't, because the Dark Lord was ready to move against Dumbledore as soon as Draco failed. "You could do it" says Narcissa, and be rewarded. The Ministry and the Order, in other words, are no longer keeping Voldemort at bay. Dumbledore does not know that Draco will get DE's into Hogwarts. But he knows that Headmaster Snape will have no choice. > > Alla: > > I think he should have expressly forbid Harry to go to Tower and yes, I am positive that Harry would have obeyed, especially after he > obeyed in the cave. Pippin: Dumbledore did not know what was about to happen on the Tower until it was too late. He may have been expecting to find Snape there; if he had arrived a few minutes later, he would have. > Alla: If he did not want to bully Dursleys, he IMO should > not have given them Harry in the first place. Pippin: It's not a question of caring about the Dursleys, it's a question of whether bullying is an effective way to deal with people. It doesn't work for Severus or James or Vernon or Dudley, it robs Sirius of his life and Voldemort of his soul, so why should it work for Dumbledore? And why should Petunia put up with it? Out of her so great love for Harry that she cannot even bring herself to wish him luck? I think the glass bouncing shows that Dumbledore was angry, and not above showing it once there's no chance that Vernon and Petunia can take it out on Harry once he is gone. But he knows that bullying the Dursleys would make them behave better only for a short time, and in the long run would make them worse. > Alla: > > I was talking about him not caring about one person in that instance, the one whom he ordered to do a killing thing. Pippin: Dumbledore never ordered Snape to kill him. "I ask this one great favor of you." I don't see any bullying happening -- Snape is not threatened, only asked to consider whether it would harm his soul to spare an old man pain and humiliation. They both take some time to think about it and Snape doesn't answer immediately. He could have said no. It's not like he always does everything that Dumbledore asks of him. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 29 02:11:26 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 02:11:26 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look LONG SORRY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184482 I just had to delete the previous post of mine which looked almost the same, but had the messed up attribution. Sorry. Potioncat: Here's my mulled thoughts. After Lockhart nearly wiped Ron's memory, and intended to leave Ginny to die---Molly is still using his book and making reference to it in front of Ginny and Ron. She uses it to mix the doxiecide they used at 12 GP. Alla: Did she ever say that she hopes he will be back in school to teach the kids? I am not being sarcastic here, I am asking honestly, because if she did, yes, I would find it odd. If she did not, I well, find it annoying, but not odd, it is not like she is ok with Lockhart being near her kids. Potioncat: She also offered Ron a new pet rat for making prefect because he had been so fond of Scabbers----surely she understands "who" Scabbers was and how close he had been to her sons? Alla: If I can see the relative relevance of the first example, I really fail to see how this one is relevant to the argument you seem to be advancing. Surely she does not think that all the pet rats are escaped animagi, who are Voldemort's servants and just wait to attack her family? What I am trying to say, and again, this was not sarcasm at all, is that I would find it odd if Molly *would* think that another Scabbers would ever to appear in her family, that usually pet rat is just that a pet rat. IMO of course. Potioncat: I've always found both of these behaviors a bit odd. So, I'm not so sure Molly or Arthur would blame DD for Ron's incident. IMO, they would think it was an unfortunate accident and that DD was doing the best he could to protect the students while working against LV. Alla: Maybe, but I would like to believe the contrary. Sherry now: The oh so touching scene in the King's cross chapter of DH did nothing to repair DD's image for me. Alla: I agree with you on all other parts of your post pretty much, but I do wonder. I remember well that Kings Cross on the first read and even on the second made me forgive Dumbledore. Oh, I still hated what he did, but at least he seemed to be genuinely sorry. But now when I am thinking about it, I do wonder if I will still have same reaction upon reread. Pippin: It's not a question of caring about the Dursleys, it's a question of whether bullying is an effective way to deal with people. It doesn't work for Severus or James or Vernon or Dudley, it robs Sirius of his life and Voldemort of his soul, so why should it work for Dumbledore? And why should Petunia put up with it? Out of her so great love for Harry that she cannot even bring herself to wish him luck? Alla: I dare to speculate that if Dumbledore the greatest wizard of all times would have wanted to design the way to make sure Dursleys obeyed them, he could have done so, much better than any of the people you listed. After all Dumbledore seems to always find a way to make sure people do what he wants them to do ( the ones whom he commands, before you say that, not Voldemort and DE), IMO. No, I do not believe Petunia would have wanted to put up with it, of course not. But do I have any doubt that Dumbledore could have forced her to put up with it? No, I do not. You think that threat of being turned into mushrooms as it was suggested in the past or being turned into anything period would not have made them act differently? I think it definitely would have and if threat would not have helped, I think Dumbledore should have appeared again and again and actually show them that he means business, scare them into doing what he needed to be done. Now, do not get me wrong, hate Dursleys as I am, I totally understand that what I am suggesting is bullying. But that's what tough choice means to me. I think that in situation like this **somebody** is bound to get screwed ? Dursleys or Harry. Nobody made Dumbledore to drop Harry on Dursleys, but now as far as I am concerned I do not believe he can say ? oh well, now please, you can make your own choices. Please treat this child as you wish, I needed him to be with you, but I am so cool, I will never force you to do anything. He **already** did. And now I think he had to get over his desire to be distant and yes, tell Petunia, care for a boy or be a mushroom. I think that baby is the one who has no choice in the matter whatsoever, therefore yes I think Dumbledore should make sure he is okay first and foremost. If he wanted to be nice to Dursleys, you know what I think he should have done. If he chose to help Harry, as far as I am concerned he was obligated to go all the way. It is like that interview, where JKR asked why Dumbledore did not go to Hagrid and she answered something along the lines that he wanted to let Hagrid make his own choice. I do not believe that Dumbledore has this luxury here, he cannot IMO allow Dursleys to make their own choices, because if he wanted to do so, he should have never given Harry to him. Pippin: Dumbledore never ordered Snape to kill him. "I ask this one great favor of you." I don't see any bullying happening -- Snape is not threatened, only asked to consider whether it would harm his soul to spare an old man pain and humiliation. They both take some time to think about it and Snape doesn't answer immediately. He could have said no. It's not like he always does everything that Dumbledore asks of him. Alla: LOL. Do you seriously believe that Snape could have said NO there? I do not buy it. And what do you give me Severus? Anything. I bet Snape remembered that conversation really well, in fact I think both of them did. And Snape tried to get out in the forest, I believe, I do not think that he was saying it for dramatics, or anything like that. IMO of course. I think Dumbledore knows that Snape would never refuse him anything. Oh yeah, he stopped Occlumency lessons, but I now wonder if this was not with Dumbledore's express approval only. Snape is even slavishly follows the orders of the portrait, portrait whose owner is already in the better place. I do wonder how he managed to save Lupin instead of acting as DE, per portrait's suggestion. But that to me does not count as Snape not following orders, because Dumbledore himself is dead, maybe Snape realized that nothing is going to happen to him if he will act how he wants instead of what portrait demands of him. JMO. Alla From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Sep 29 02:20:05 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 02:20:05 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look LONG SORRY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184483 > Pippin: > Dumbledore never ordered Snape to kill him. "I ask this one great > favor of you." I don't see any bullying happening -- Snape is not > threatened, only asked to consider whether it would harm his soul to > spare an old man pain and humiliation. They both take some time to > think about it and Snape doesn't answer immediately. He could have > said no. It's not like he always does everything that Dumbledore asks > of him. Potioncat: At the end of HBP I thought that DD's death was a literary version of JKR's mother's death. I don't know if JKR would agree. After DH I think it even more so. Again, I don't know if JKR would agree. DD was losing the use of his arm all year. Then after the cave, he was rapidly losing the use of his body. Sounds a lot like MS to me. DD had anticipated the loss of dignity and a terrible death. He made a "end of life" decision. I'm not suggesting anything of this sort happened with JKR's mother but the type of deterioration is similar. In DD's case, there is both a tactical reason and an end of life reason for asking Snape to kill him. Right now patients and (or) their families are making decisions. "Do I approve of life-prolonging treatments that don't improve the quality of life?" "If I don't allow this treatment, it means death." To clarify, I think DD's condition resembles JKR's mother's MS. His decision and Snape's action may reflect some of JKR's own thoughts amd ideas about 'end of life' decisions. All of this wrapped into a plot about evil, death-fearing overlords. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Sep 29 02:54:32 2008 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 02:54:32 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look LONG SORRY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184484 > Alla: > > Did she ever say that she hopes he will be back in school to teach > the kids? I am not being sarcastic here, I am asking honestly, > because if she did, yes, I would find it odd. If she did not, I well, > find it annoying, but not odd, it is not like she is ok with Lockhart > being near her kids. Potioncat: I'm sort of comparing apples to oranges, at least to your original post. What I mean is...let's say JKR had been teaching at my kids' school. She was going to allow my daughter to die and was going to wipe my son's memory--but luckily didn't succeed. I can assure you, I wouldn't keep her books. I wouldn't want anything around to remind me of her. So I don't understand why Molly is still using Lockhart's book---much less using it in front of the kids. > > Alla: > What I am trying to say, and again, this was not sarcasm at all, is > that I would find it odd if Molly *would* think that another Scabbers > would ever to appear in her family, that usually pet rat is just that > a pet rat. IMO of course Potioncat: No, I don't mean another rat might be an animagi, just another rat would remind me (or possibly my kids) of the previous rat--a real dirty rat. And she speaks of Scabbers as if he was just a rat. Scabbers wasn't a rat, he was Pettigrew. She was saying she would replace Scabbers, the rat Ron was so fond of. That works if you have lost a pet and the time of grief is over, and you want another pet. But, let's say, you had had a pet snake that got out of the tank and bit you and you almost died. Then your mom says, "Let's get you another snake. You were so fond of Ka." > > Potioncat earlier: > I've always found both of these behaviors a bit odd. So, I'm not so > sure Molly or Arthur would blame DD for Ron's incident. IMO, they > would > think it was an unfortunate accident and that DD was doing the best he > could to protect the students while working against LV. > Potioncat now: I must be tired. I know the point I want to make, but the above paragraph isn't it. The two odd reactions on Molly's part have nothing to do with how I think they might react to DD's actions with Draco. From sistermagpie at earthlink.net Mon Sep 29 03:12:35 2008 From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 03:12:35 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look LONG SORRY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184485 > Alla: > I dare to speculate that if Dumbledore the greatest wizard of all > times would have wanted to design the way to make sure Dursleys > obeyed them, he could have done so, much better than any of the > people you listed. After all Dumbledore seems to always find a way > to make sure people do what he wants them to do ( the ones whom he > commands, before you say that, not Voldemort and DE), IMO. > > No, I do not believe Petunia would have wanted to put up with it, of > course not. But do I have any doubt that Dumbledore could have forced > her to put up with it? No, I do not. > > You think that threat of being turned into mushrooms as it was > suggested in the past or being turned into anything period would not > have made them act differently? Magpie: Seems like a little leaning on the Dursleys is considered just fine and also affective at other moments. He stops living in the cupboard once wizards get involved, I think they back off him after Hagrid shows up. He keeps Dudley in line by threatening him with magic. Order members make a show of threatening them in OotP. Harry threatens them with Sirius at the end of PoA. The Dursleys never love him but they leave him alone when they're intimidated into it by Wizards. And of course, Dumbledore picks on them when he shows up in HBP when he wants them to agree to Harry staying with them for a while longer. Granted that seems to be more to make a good impression on Harry or just enjoying himself by magically teasing Muggles who've earned it through their bad behavior--he's let himself so much off the hook he's actually telling them that they disappointed him by not treating him as their own child the way he hoped they would. I don't see anything in the books that says that physical intimidation can't ever be an affective and righteous way of dealing with people. Bullying is wrong, but that's why nobody in the series would call this bullying. -m From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 29 04:01:52 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 04:01:52 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look LONG SORRY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184486 > > Alla: > > If he did not want to bully Dursleys, he IMO should > > not have given them Harry in the first place. > > Pippin: > It's not a question of caring about the Dursleys, it's a question of > whether bullying is an effective way to deal with people. It doesn't > work for Severus or James or Vernon or Dudley, it robs Sirius of his > life and Voldemort of his soul, so why should it work for Dumbledore? > And why should Petunia put up with it? Out of her so great love for > Harry that she cannot even bring herself to wish him luck? > > I think the glass bouncing shows that Dumbledore was angry, and not > above showing it once there's no chance that Vernon and Petunia can > take it out on Harry once he is gone. But he knows that bullying the > Dursleys would make them behave better only for a short time, and in > the long run would make them worse. Montavilla47: You're setting up a false choice. It's not either/or. (Either Dumbledore ignores the Dursleys or he bullies them.) As Alla pointed out a long time ago, all it really took for the Dursleys to get Harry out of the cupboard was a letter delivered by an owl. Just the thought that they were being contacted by the wizards was enough for them to shape up. Did Dumbledore need to bully the Dursleys? How about simply talking to them? Dumbledore didn't even tell Petunia in person that her sister was dead. He wrote her a note. How about providing them a bit of gold in return for taking care of Harry? How about a little felix felicis potion to help Vernon get those all-important drill contracts? Maybe they wouldn't be so anti-magic if they could see some its advantages. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Sep 29 16:56:44 2008 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 16:56:44 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look LONG SORRY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184487 > > Montavilla47: > You're setting up a false choice. It's not either/or. (Either Dumbledore ignores the Dursleys or he bullies them.) As Alla pointed out a long time ago, all it really took for the Dursleys to get Harry out of the cupboard was a letter delivered by an owl. Just the thought that they were being contacted by the wizards was enough for them to shape up. > > Did Dumbledore need to bully the Dursleys? How about simply > talking to them? Dumbledore didn't even tell Petunia in person > that her sister was dead. He wrote her a note. > > How about providing them a bit of gold in return for taking care > of Harry? How about a little felix felicis potion to help Vernon > get those all-important drill contracts? Maybe they wouldn't be > so anti-magic if they could see some its advantages. Pippin: So... it would be a positive example, nay, a moral duty, to bully or outright bribe the Dursleys for sixteen long years? Some of us seem to have very different ideas of what disgraces the name of wizard. What would Harry, and the soul bit inside him, make of such an example in human relations? What would the readers think? At least Harry has no doubt that the Dursleys are treating him badly. But if the people who love him are bullies, too, he's apt to be as confused about right and wrong as Draco Malfoy. Yes, the Dursleys do get bullied occasionally. Who doesn't? And it occasionally brings about a positive change, though seldom intentionally. As you say, it's not either/or. But as I pointed out long ago in response to Alla, the letter from Hogwarts was not intended to get Harry a decent bedroom. It was intended to invite him to Hogwarts, a task at which it failed. And then Harry ended up on the floor of the hut on the rock, obviously a worse place than the smallest bedroom, and arguably also worse than the cupboard. This sets up the pattern. Bullying does, sometimes, make the Dursleys behave a little better. But it doesn't last. Giving Dudley a pig's tail didn't tame the Dursleys for long. Every time the Dursleys resort to bullying again, their behavior is a little worse. They never actually tried to starve Harry, until CoS. For all their neglect, they kept Harry clean and insisted on good grooming, until after the ton tongue toffee thing. They do seem chastened after OOP, but then Harry's not a helpless little boy any more, he's a strapping self-confident young wizard who can more than take care of himself. Besides, Dudley has had a change of heart, not because Harry bullied Dudley but because he saved Dudley's life. Bribes might work for a while. But they have a way of getting bigger. As Harry guesses, Vernon's dislike of magic would not extend to a big pile of wizard gold. But Vernon's behavior does not suggest that he has learned the value of moderation. How long before Vernon asked for something that even Dumbledore couldn't give? And what would Harry have learned in the meantime? It can't be a bad thing to take bribes, if kindly old Dumbledore is giving them out. Bullies often hope that just a little bullying will put things right. Bribers always hope that the bribes will stay manageable. And those without power or wealth enough to indulge in either like to daydream that they would. Harmless enough. But there are those in the WW like Voldemort and Grindelwald, with the art of convincing people that such dreams can come true. Young Dumbledore pretended to himself that a display of wizard power would be all it took to put the Muggles in their place, "only the force that was necessary and no more" all justified in the name of benefits for wizards. Grindelwald showed him how wrong he was. I'm not saying the Dursley deserve a pass. They don't. But two wrongs do not make a right. A bad solution is not better than doing nothing, as putting Stan Shunpike in Azkaban showed. Dumbledore's choice, very starkly, was between the Dursley's protection and Harry's murder by a vengeful Voldemort. That's not an entirely realistic situation: in the real world criminal masterminds are seldom entirely bent on the destruction of one little boy, and there wouldn't be just one family with the magical power to protect him. But that wasn't Dumbledore's choice. As I said, Dumbledore had to prepare against the worst case scenario even if that meant allowing things that under the best case scenario he would have prevented. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 29 18:39:13 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 18:39:13 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look LONG SORRY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184488 Potioncat: I'm sort of comparing apples to oranges, at least to your original post. What I mean is...let's say JKR had been teaching at my kids' school. She was going to allow my daughter to die and was going to wipe my son's memory--but luckily didn't succeed. I can assure you, I wouldn't keep her books. I wouldn't want anything around to remind me of her. So I don't understand why Molly is still using Lockhart's book---much less using it in front of the kids. Alla: Oh, now I get it. No neither do I would be keeping his books, but hmmm, did Dumbledore tell them everything at the of CoS? Have no book to check, but did he specifically inform him that Lockhart did not do anything for Ginny and was ready to wipe Ron's memory. Yes, if he did, I find it bizarre. Thanks for clarifying. Pippin: So... it would be a positive example, nay, a moral duty, to bully or outright bribe the Dursleys for sixteen long years? Alla: Absolutely, since the goal of the bribery or bullying will be to insure that the helpless baby will not be abused or neglected, I will absolutely say that it IS Dumbledore's moral duty to bribe ( I guess I am not sure that bribes will work but I think he should have tried that) or bully Dursleys. Pippin: Some of us seem to have very different ideas of what disgraces the name of wizard. What would Harry, and the soul bit inside him, make of such an example in human relations? What would the readers think? At least Harry has no doubt that the Dursleys are treating him badly. But if the people who love him are bullies, too, he's apt to be as confused about right and wrong as Draco Malfoy. Alla: So wait, it is **good** example in human relations to let Dursleys treat Harry like crap, otherwise he will be confused what's right or wrong? Something tells me that he may have been appreciated the result of that very very much, but that's just me. And if Dumbledore was sincerely confused about that, which I do not buy for a second, he did not need to make himself known to Harry, only to Dursleys. It seems to be your view that to make Dursleys treat Harry well means to make Harry confused about right or wrong. I guess the results of what Harry endured as result of Dumbledore's non interference is just fine and not going to make him confused about how much he can trust adults, etc. Pippin: But as I pointed out long ago in response to Alla, the letter from Hogwarts was not intended to get Harry a decent bedroom. It was intended to invite him to Hogwarts, a task at which it failed. And then Harry ended up on the floor of the hut on the rock, obviously a worse place than the smallest bedroom, and arguably also worse than the cupboard. Alla: So? It did the job eventually, did it not? Wizards got the job done, one way or another and Dursleys did not take the bedroom back. Pippin: Bribes might work for a while. But they have a way of getting bigger. As Harry guesses, Vernon's dislike of magic would not extend to a big pile of wizard gold. But Vernon's behavior does not suggest that he has learned the value of moderation. How long before Vernon asked for something that even Dumbledore couldn't give? And what would Harry have learned in the meantime? It can't be a bad thing to take bribes, if kindly old Dumbledore is giving them out. Alla: We would not know, would we? Dumbledore **never tried**. Maybe Dursleys would have been perfectly happy and content with what Dumbledore would have offered them. He did not try. I find Montavilla's suggestion to give them some money to care for Harry to be perfectly reasonable and then if it does not work, well Mushrooms. And let me tell you what I think Harry would have learned, that Dumbledore is willing to do **anything**, **anything** to make sure he is treated okay by his relatives. Believe me, I find Petunia's behavior towards Harry to be very short of monstrous, I do not think that she had any right to treat her nephew, her blood like she did, no matter what problems she had with his mother. But she cannot help how she feels, doesn't she? So I think Harry would have learned that even though Dumbledore had no choice but to place him with Dursleys, he cared about him enough to stay on top of the matter and made sure Harry is treated well. I think he would have been smart enough to know that bribe and bullying in this case is a tough choice, nothing more than that. JMO, Alla From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 30 02:54:11 2008 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 02:54:11 -0000 Subject: HBP Chapters 27 - 30 post DH look LONG SORRY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > > > Montavilla47: > > You're setting up a false choice. It's not either/or. (Either > Dumbledore ignores the Dursleys or he bullies them.) As Alla pointed > out a long time ago, all it really took for the Dursleys to get Harry > out of the cupboard was a letter delivered by an owl. Just the > thought that they were being contacted by the wizards was enough for > them to shape up. > > > > Did Dumbledore need to bully the Dursleys? How about simply > > talking to them? Dumbledore didn't even tell Petunia in person > > that her sister was dead. He wrote her a note. > > > > How about providing them a bit of gold in return for taking care > > of Harry? How about a little felix felicis potion to help Vernon > > get those all-important drill contracts? Maybe they wouldn't be > > so anti-magic if they could see some its advantages. > > Pippin: > So... it would be a positive example, nay, a moral duty, to bully or > outright bribe the Dursleys for sixteen long years? Montavilla47: Again, you're limiting the choices, although extending them to the concept of a "bribe." I notice that you skipped right over the idea of talking to Petunia and letting her know what was going on. You know, that approach did work with Snape, even if he was bit distraught at the moment. Pippin: > Some of us seem to have very different ideas of what disgraces the > name of wizard. > > What would Harry, and the soul bit inside him, make of such an > example in human relations? What would the readers think? At least > Harry has no doubt that the Dursleys are treating him badly. But if > the people who love him are bullies, too, he's apt to be as confused > about right and wrong as Draco Malfoy. Montavilla47: I have news for you, Pippin. The people that love Harry are bullies. There are many examples of this in the books, but we can start with Hagrid hexing Dudley with a tail. Pippin: > Yes, the Dursleys do get bullied occasionally. Who doesn't? And it > occasionally brings about a positive change, though seldom > intentionally. As you say, it's not either/or. > > But as I pointed out long ago in response to Alla, the > letter from Hogwarts was not intended to get Harry a decent bedroom. > It was intended to invite him to Hogwarts, a task at which it failed. > And then Harry ended up on the floor of the hut on the rock, obviously > a worse place than the smallest bedroom, and arguably also worse than > the cupboard. Montavilla47: I agree with you that the letter wasn't intended to get Harry a bedroom. A letter addressed to Petunia and Vernon requesting that Harry be put into a room, rather than a cupboard might have had that effect. A visit from Dumbledore, explaining that no amount of negativity is going to squash the magic out of Harry might have had even more effect. Pippin: > This sets up the pattern. > > Bullying does, sometimes, make the Dursleys behave a little better. > But it doesn't last. Giving Dudley a pig's tail didn't tame the > Dursleys for long. > > Every time the Dursleys resort to bullying again, their behavior is a > little worse. They never actually tried to starve Harry, until > CoS. Montavilla47: IIRC, they don't actually start starving Harry until they find out that he lied to them and pretended that he'd be able to hex them any time he wanted to. Once they realized that he couldn't?and he ruined Vernon's deal with his magic, they locked him in his room. It wasn't connected to the pig's tail, except in a most indirect way. If they thought Harry was connected to the wizarding world. If, for example, Harry had been regularly receiving the letters that Dobby stole, then they never would have tried that. Pippin: > For all their neglect, they kept Harry clean and insisted on good > grooming, until after the ton tongue toffee thing. Montavilla47: I don't think you can blame Harry's lack of hygiene on Petunia and Vernon. They are, at that point, pretty much doing what Harry wants, which is leaving him alone. The only thing they are balking at is having him watch the news with them. How are they supposed to force Harry to bathe? He's got a murderous Godfather who'll hex them if they try. Pippin: > They do seem chastened after OOP, but then Harry's not a > helpless little boy any more, he's a strapping self-confident young > wizard who can more than take care of himself. Besides, Dudley has > had a change of heart, not because Harry bullied Dudley but because > he saved Dudley's life. Montavilla47: They were also directly threatened by a crowd of wizards, including Moody, Arthur, Remus, and Tonks. Pippin: > Bribes might work for a while. But they have a way of getting bigger. > As Harry guesses, Vernon's dislike of magic would not extend to a big > pile of wizard gold. But Vernon's behavior does not suggest that he > has learned the value of moderation. How long before Vernon asked for > something that even Dumbledore couldn't give? And what would Harry > have learned in the meantime? It can't be a bad thing to take bribes, > if kindly old Dumbledore is giving them out. Montavilla47: I don't believe I used the word bribe. That is your characterization of what could be a mutually beneficial relationship between Dumbledore and the Dursleys. It's not unreasonable for someone who assumes the care and feeding of a child to get financial support from someone who leaves them with that child. It's also not unheard of for the person leaving the child to *ask* the other to take on the responsibility, rather than leaving the child on their doorstep in the middle of the night. Pippin: > Bullies often hope that just a little bullying will put things right. > Bribers always hope that the bribes will stay manageable. And those > without power or wealth enough to indulge in either like to > daydream that they would. Harmless enough. But there are those in > the WW like Voldemort and Grindelwald, with the art of convincing > people that such dreams can come true. > > Young Dumbledore pretended to himself that a display of wizard power > would be all it took to put the Muggles in their place, "only the > force that was necessary and no more" all justified in the name > of benefits for wizards. > > Grindelwald showed him how wrong he was. Montavilla47: Really? When? I don't recall Grindelwald showing Dumbledore anything about Muggles. What he showed Dumbledore was that abandonning a child in order to go take over the world might have bad repercushions for the left-behind child. Pippin: > I'm not saying the Dursley deserve a pass. They don't. But two wrongs > do not make a right. A bad solution is not better than doing nothing, > as putting Stan Shunpike in Azkaban showed. Montavilla47: But nothing is exactly what Dumbledore did for 10 years of Harry's life. He left Harry with the Dursleys and did nothing?even though he had Arabella Figg there to report what was going on. In fact, he told Harry that he was quite pleased at Harry's state when the boy arrived at Hogwarts, with just a little bit of annoyance at how underfed he looked. Pippin: > Dumbledore's choice, very starkly, was between the Dursley's > protection and Harry's murder by a vengeful Voldemort. > That's not an entirely realistic situation: in the real world criminal > masterminds are seldom entirely bent on the destruction of one little > boy, and there wouldn't be just one family with the magical power to > protect him. But that wasn't Dumbledore's choice. > > As I said, Dumbledore had to prepare against the worst case scenario > even if that meant allowing things that under the best case scenario > he would have prevented. Montavilla47: His choice was between the Dursley's protection and Voldemort's vengence. But that doesn't mean he couldn't take steps to ensure that the Dursleys were treating Harry better than they did. Even if that was only to send them an occasional note, asking after his welfare. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 30 19:51:24 2008 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:51:24 -0000 Subject: Which character inspired you or Compliment a character take 2 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 184490 So this should be easier than complimenting characters we dislike :) Pick one quality or action of the character you like and tell us (with canon help of course) why you would want to have that quality or maybe that you are happy that you have it already. Please, stick to one quality for each character, but you can mention as many characters as you wish. For example, I know that if the circumstances arise that I will definitely want to take the child of my dead friends (hopefully not) in and bring him up as my own, just as as Sirius wanted to bring Harry as his own son. I would **want** to be as brave as Harry and to fight against evil, but that I am not hundred percent sure if I have it in me, but I know I would try. Alla