HBP post DH look Chapters 1-2.

[tommy_m_riddle]

No: HPFGUIDX 184339

> Carol:
> I'm not talking about helping the mothers of the world. I'm talking
> about desperate fear for the life of someone you love. He's not
> identifying with Lily or mothers. He's identifying with Narcissa,
> whose fear for Draco exactly parallels his own for Lily.

Sarah:
OK, but that's not actually in the book.  In the book, he stared into
her eyes for a second then immediately agreed to take the Unbreakable
Vow.  Anything additional is fanfiction.  We can speculate as to why
this may have occurred the way that it did, but there is no one right
answer at this time, since it isn't in the book.

> Sarah:
>   No matter how he might empathize with Narcissa, *his* mission still
> is what it is.  If he fails to help Harry Potter carry out what he's
> been set to do, he fails at life, basically.  If he's dead, he
> probably can't finish his mission. 
> 
> Carol:
> Well, true. It's rather hard to finish your mission when you're dead.
> But, still, he's binding himself to do what DD wants, and the price
> for failure is still his life. Now the only way to avoid going through
> it is to procrastinate long enough for DD to die of the curse--or to
> let Draco kill DD, which would be to fail Dumbledore and tear Draco's
> soul. Anyway, the vow makes his mission *binding*, symbolized by ropes
> and chains of fire. 

Sarah:
Yeah, so basically there's a lot of fanfare about something that isn't
really a big deal.  Snape is promising to do something that he already
promised to do, that he has promised for a reason that's meaningful to
*him.*

Now he's being asked to do the exact same thing, for a reason that is
meaningful to other people, and may provide side benefits to Snape. Of
course he takes it.  My only question was why he pretended not to know
what they were asking him at first, if in fact that was the case.

He won't change his mind about killing Dumbledore.  So, the net effect
here is about the same as if I said, "I promise not to forget to
breathe tomorrow, on penalty of my death."  In other words, no effect.

> Sarah:
>  (I know Dumbledore still did, kind of, but Snape would have died in
> much worse standing had he died of some Unbreakable Vow with the
> Malfoys, or been taken out as a consequence of killing Dumbledore.)
> 
> Carol:
> I'm not sure what you mean here. Snape could have died fighting the
> DEs, refusing to kill DD, and letting one of them kill him. He would
> have died a hero, but he would also have failed Harry, Draco, and
> Dumbledore. Or he could have done nothing, as he seemed in danger or
> doing. It took him a long time to raise his wand. DD had to beg him
> twice, and desperately.

Sarah:
Totally disagree with all of this, sorry.  What I was referring to
earlier was one of the good guys (Harry Potter for example) taking
Snape out on his way out of the castle.  Which clearly couldn't have
happened, since Harry failed so miserably against Snape when he chased
him out and they duelled.  Yeah, Snape could have not killed
Dumbledore, and waited to be killed by the Vow or his DE
contemporaries, but he was never ever going to attempt that, anyway.

Completely disagree that it took him a long time on the tower.  He
arrived, ascertained what was going on, was interrupted by Dumbledore,
stepped to him, heard two more words from Dumbledore, and immediately
blew him away and split.  I see no hesitation.

Carol:
> I disagree. He tells DD, *after* he has made the vow, that DD takes
> too much for granted and that maybe he doesn't want to do it any more.

Sarah:
I disagree again. Snape is in the process of complaining that
Dumbledore doesn't give him enough information during that scene.  He
is bargaining.  Of course he pulls out "Well I could just not kill you
then" or anything else he can think of at that point.  He is a
subordinate bargaining with a superior, he is just threatening
whatever he can think of.

Carol:
> And his hesitation on the tower, along with his expression of seeming
> hatred (probably extreme anger at DD and self-loathing or revulsion at
> what he has to do)

Sarah:
We've already been over this, but I don't believe there was any
hesitation.  Of course he was angry about it, who wouldn't be.


> Sarah:
> >  He reckons everyone involved expects Draco to fail, and Snape to be
> the one to kill Dumbledore, so the Vow won't kill Snape.  And even if
> Draco actually does manage to pull it off, Snape hasn't broken the
> Vow, just his promise to Dumbledore.  I think Snape is pretty
> confident that he won't get taken out by someone like Harry Potter as
> a side effect of killing Dumbledore, with good reason (see: their duel
> afterwards).
> 
> Carol:
> I think you're missing the point, which is that Snape only reluctantly
> agreed to kill Dumbledore and still, even after the vow, doesn't want
> to do it. 

Sarah:
Well, I suppose we are even since I think it is you who are missing
the point.  Which is that Snape agrees to things that are convenient
for Snape.  Which is why he agreed to the UV, because it was something
he already planned on doing anyway.  He was reluctant when he agreed
to kill Dumbledore, *at first.*  Then, like everything else in his
life, he accepted it as a given, since it was ordered by Dumbledore. 
He was seen later trying to get out of it, but a) I don't think Snape
is really that stupid that he actually believes that would be feasible
and b) as I said earlier, Snape is attempting to leverage Dumbledore
into something entirely unrelated, so he's just waving that around.

> Sarah: 
> > He makes the Vow because it's promising the exact same thing to two
> different parties.  There's no additional danger involved on his part
> by making it.  It's a win-win situation.  Unless he died, then
> everyone involved would have some pretty bad repercussions.  But Snape
> is confident that won't happen, so no worries. 
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> No additional danger? Now he's committed to murder Dumbledore, which
> he really doesn't want to do, or die from breaking the vow. It's quite
> literally kill or be killed, whereas, before, it was only an agreement
> with Dumbledore that he could choose to break and possibly come out
> looking like a hero. 

Sarah:
Do you really believe that Snape could undermine Dumbledore's orders
and "come out looking like a hero?"  I do not.  Perhaps that
contributes to the difference of opinion concerning this matter.