CHAPDISC: DH29, THE LOST DIADEM

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 184369

yolandacarroll wrote:
 
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
> Chapter 29, The Lost Diadem
><snip>
> Neville leads Harry, Ron and Hermione through the tunnel behind the
> portrait.  The passageway looks like it has been there for years.
> Ron asks about it and says he thought there were only seven passages
> in and out of Hogwarts.  Neville informs them those passages were
> sealed off before school started and now there are curses over the
> entrances with Death Eaters and Dementors waiting at the exits.

Carol responds:
Before I respond to the questions, I want to respond to this
paragraph. Snape already knew about the Shrieking Passage and
suspected a passage into Hogsmeade relating to the humpbacked witch.
He could have questioned Filch and found out about three of the
passages, but the only person who could have told him (or Voldemort)
about the other two (one of them already blocked) was Wormtail.
Dumbledore doesn't seem to have known about them, and if DD knew at
that time, he wasn't telling Draco. That would have made it too easy
to get the DEs into Hogwarts and kill Dumbledore.

At any rate, I think that Snape himself must have sealed up the
passages before school started, ostensibly to keep the students from
escaping but really to keep them safe (better inside Hogwarts than
out, even with the Carrows) and, especially, to keep the Death Eaters
out. (Last time they got in, Dumbledore was killed and the whole
school endangered. It's his responsibility to make sure that nothing
of the sort happens again, as long as he can prevent it. I suspect
that he kept the other protections, such as magically locked gates, in
place as well.) The curses on the passages and the Dementors and DEs
at the other end seem like overkill. I suspect that the Carrows (who
must have found out about the passages from Voldemort before he went
off on his wild wand chase) added the curses on their own initiative
and ordered/requested their fellow DEs and the Dementors to stand
guard over passages that no one could escape from because they were
already blocked! Or possibly Snape ordered the guard as a blind;
either way, no students would be harmed by the DEs because the
students couldn't get out that way and the DEs couldn't get in, and
the students would need to know about the curses on the passages so
they wouldn't get hurt attempting to use them. (That's assuming that
they even knew about the passageways; who besides Harry, the Weasley
Twins, and Hermione retrieving the Invisibility Cloak had ever used them?)

Does anyone recall whether the passages were already blocked in HBP?
They should have been, but it's unclear whether Snape and DD knew
about most of them. <snip>

> Just then, people start showing up in answer to Neville's message
Luna Lovegood, Dean Thomas, Ginny, Fred and George Weasley, Lee Jordan
and Cho Chang come in.  
>
Carol comments:

Luna is a sixth year, and she was kidnapped at the beginning of the
Christmas holiday. Apparition lessons, assuming that Snape is
following the same schedule as Dumbledore, don't begin until March 1.
How did Luna, who was in the Malfoys' secret room until the Easter
holiday and in hiding after that, learn to Apparate? Or did she
side-along Apparate with some of the Weasleys? <snip rest of summary>

> 1) Why would Neville and Seamus look so bad?  Shouldn't they have
been healed by the school nurse or even by themselves or another student?

Carol: As others have pointed out, healing (other than antidotes)
doesn't seem to be part of the Hogwarts curriculum. (Maybe Snape
taught it to his seventh-years during HBP, but they're no longer at
Hogwarts.) Pippin's suggestion that the scars were a badge of honor is
also good. I don't think that Madam Pomfrey would have been
intimidated by the Carrows into failing to treat injured students (she
would probably have treated Harry's and Lee's quill injuries in OoP if
she'd known about them), but maybe the students (unless they're
gravely injured) don't want to bring her into it. It's between them
and the Carrows, just as it was between Harry and Umbridge. (I suspect
that the staff, except for Filch, are also working to undermine the
Carrows as they did with Umbridge, as Snape knows full well--and
intended when he kept them on.)
 
> 2)  What do you think about Voldemort making his very biased version
of Muggle Studies compulsory for the students?

Carol:
Voldemort's hatred of Muggles goes back to his Muggle father. His
merciless treatment of Charity Burbage (playing with his prey before
killing it) shows that he's serious in this endeavor. Hogwarts
students must not be taught that Muggles are people. (As far as he's
concerned, they're inferior beings and his own connection with them
makes his pathological hatred of them all the worse. He wants to
indoctrinate the students to share his belief that Muggles and Wizards
should not intermarry (he holds a similar view of werewolves, as we
see in the same chapter) and that Muggles, if they're allowed to live,
are fit to be nothing but slaves. Alecto Carrow, most likely a
Half-Blood herself given her reaction to Neville's question about
Muggle blood in her family) gleefully carries out her mission.
(Whether Snape exercises any control over what she and her brother
teach, we don't know, but she can't have sat through every class
simply stating and restating that Muggles are inferior. She must have
had some sort of curriculum and assigned readings and Snape would, I
think, have reminded both Carrows that the students must be prepared
for their OWLs. I doubt that any students expected to take a NEWT exam
in Muggle Studies!)

> 3)  Despite the source (Alecto Carrow, a Death Eater) could there be
some truth about Muggles driving wizards "into hiding by being vicious
towards them"?

Carol:
It's hard to say how much Alecto really knows about the subject, but
witch-burning and witch-hanging and dunking women to see whether they
were witches (if they were innocent, they would drown) is a historical
fact. Whether those who died were actually Muggles (obviously the case
in real life although some people did actually attempt to practice
sorcery) or Witches and Wizards whose wands had been confiscated is
unclear. But Alecto is taking the same extreme position as Salazar
Slytherin (who had more cause, given the era he lived in), and she's
ignoring the possibility that Muggle hostility toward Wizardkind could
have resulted from magic being used against defenseless Muggles (cf.
Morfin Gaunt and Tom Riddle Sr.). My own Salem ancestor was accused of
giving cattle the evil eye and causing them to die (I assume that she
was innocent!) and of spreading smallpox (I suspect that she and her
family were unwittingly guilty). She was hanged for her "crimes." In
JKR's version of history, she may well have been a real witch who
hexed the cows!
> 
> 4) Neville says "...it helps when people stand up to them, it gives
everyone hope.  I used to notice that when you did it, Harry."  What
does this say about how Neville and the others see Harry?

Carol:
I don't know if it says anything about the others, who are there
because Harry was their leader or teacher in the DA (which, as Pippin
pointed out, they joined for a variety of reasons). The DA as a whole
didn't so much stand up to Umbridge as go behind her back. Neville,
however, seems to admire and emulate Harry, as we see in the MoM. I
don't think he realizes how much courage he has always had from the
moment he stood up to his friends in SS/PS. He stands up to Bellatrix
at the MoM *without* hope, choosing to be tortured rather than have
Harry give Lucius Malfoy the Prophecy orb. (Harry, of course, makes
the opposite choice.) I think what it says about Neville is that *he*
found hope (and determination) when Harry stood up to Umbridge and is
determined to stand up to the Carrows in the same way, setting an
example by his defiance but acting, probably, in the name of Harry and
Dumbledore. 
 
> 5) In Half-Blood Prince only Neville and Luna were still carrying
around their fake galleons that the D.A. used in Order of the Phoenix.
 Judging from how many people show up to answer Neville's message and
how active the D.A. has been in fighting the Carrows, this is no
longer the case.  What caused the change?

Carol:
Probably Luna. She and Dean and the Weasleys are all living together
at Auntie Muriel's, IIRC. How they got in touch with Cho, I don't
know. It doesn't make sense that she would still be carrying around a
fake galleon, and Lee Jordan never had one. The other DA members are
still at school, hiding in the RoR, and wouldn't need fake galleons.
> 
> 6) In the seventh book, the trio of Neville, Ginny, and Luna were
the leaders of the D.A.  Can we compare this new trio with the trio of
Harry, Ron, and Hermione?

Carol:
Let's see. Two girls and a boy instead of two boys and a girl, and
three Pure-bloods (assuming that Luna is a Pure-blood, not a
Half-Blood with a Muggle-born parent) instead of a Pure-Blood, a
Half-Blood, and a Muggle-born. One boy suffering from low self-esteem.
Check. One Weasley. Check. One very bright but eccentric girl of the
opposite intellectual and personality type from Hermione, who happens
to be a Ravenclaw rather than a Gryffindor. Okay, these are shallow,
meaningless comparisons. I don't think it's a coincidence that there's
a second trio or that they're the same three who accompanied HRH to
the MoM, and I think that JKR wanted an important secondary role for
all of them, but I'm not sure how far we can stretch the comparison.
Both Luna (at Christmas) and Ginny (at Easter) are taken out of
Hogwarts, leaving Neville in sole charge of the DA. I suppose that's
appropriate for the One Who Might Have Been Chosen. But all three,
especially Neville and Luna, have distinctive personalities and are
individuals in their own right, far more than the Other Trio, IMO>
> 
> 7) Neville says he couldn't ask people "to go through what Michael
Corner went through."   Compare Neville as a leader to Harry.  (I
realize we do not see or hear very much about Neville as a leader.
Feel free to "fill in the blanks" using what we already know about
Neville from books 1-6.)

Carol:
I think I've already answered this question in my response to question
4, but I'll add that no one is following Neville because he's The Boy
Who Might Have Been Chosen (not even he knows that) or because he's
famous like Harry (which he isn't, though they might know that he,
Ginny, and Luna have actually faced Death Eaters). I think they're
inspired by his example as he was inspired by Harry's defiance of
Umbridge. I also think he's developed charisma. Adversity brings out
the best in some people. He's one of them.
 
>  8) A "Little old witch living alone" gave the Death Eaters more
trouble than they would have thought. Do you feel that the Death
Eaters should have known better?

Carol:
Given Bellatrix's contempt for the Longbottoms, two of whom she and
her cronies Crucio'd into insanity (DEs also, apparently, killed her
husbane), I'm sure they thought that she was an easy target (not to
mention her age and her being alone, Uncle Algie having apparently
died). But, obviously, they underestimated Augusta Longbottom, just as
Voldemort underestimated Neville.
> 
> 9) Gran was hard on Neville; however he did turn out the way she
always expected him to.  What were your feelings of Gran pre-DH and
post-DH?  Were they very different from each other?

Carol:
Unlike a lot of readers, I always liked Gran. True, she compared him
unfavorably to his father and he was afraid of her, but she obviously
loved him in her way, giving him a Remembrall and sending in his
Hogsmead form in case he forgot it, which he apparently did. I
especially liked her taking him to visit his parents at St. Mungo's
and telling him to be proud of them, even though she didn't understand
that he would value the gum wrappers his mother gave him. She even
boasted about him to the Daily Prophet and bought him a new wand
instead of "killing" him after he broke his father's wand. Too bad for
poor Imperiused, deluded Dawlish, but hooray for Gran!
> 
> 10) Harry only sees banners for three houses represented.  Why
haven't any Slytherins stood up to the Carrows and joined the D.A.?
Was it unrealistic to hope that any of them would?

Carol:
The DA always excluded the Slytherins, some but not all of whom were
members of the Inquisitorial Squad. Since Blaise Zabini expressed his
dislike of "blood traitors" and Theo Nott's father was a DE (old and
injured but still sent to Azkaban), there was no chance that they
would be invited, and, of course, the former Inquisitorial Squad were
viewed as just enemies. No one talks about the sixth-year Slytherins
except the Draco clone, Harper, who takes Draco's place as Seeker in
HBP. It's unrealistic for any Slytherins to ask to join the DA (some
of them may not even know about it) or for the current DA members to
ask them. In any case, the Sneak hex, which will take effect if they
tell *anyone* about the DA, has never been removed, which would
prevent or at least discourage them from inviting anyone new to join.
(Umbridge, who wasn't bound by the magical contract, told Dumbledore
and the others who were present about it.) So, of course, there were
no Slytherin banners in the RoR. it was just the same old people,
minus Zacharias Smith and a few others.
> 
> 11) Seamus says that "Neville's the man!"  There is no doubting that
Neville came into his own in Deathly Hallows; however, do you feel
that this was plausible or not?  Do you feel that Rowling presented
Neville's change well?

Carol:
We've been prepared for a brave Neville ever since he earned those ten
House points in SS/PS. We saw him change (and knew his motivation)
between GoF and OoP and saw his determination as a DA member even
without a new wand. We'd been led to expect his own wand to make a
difference, too. Granted, the beat-up, condident Neville who enters
Aberforth's pub is a bit of a surprise, as is his evident popularity
with his fellow DA members, but I had no problem accepting it. I
always knew he had it in him.
> 
> 12) Why didn't the room of requirement give them a passage into the
Hogwarts' kitchen instead of to the Hog's Head Bar?

Carol:
Why would it? They can't escape from the kitchen as they can from the
Hog's Head. (I wonder why they couldn't wish for a House-Elf to bring
them food, though.) Also, Aberforth, much as he resents his dead
brother, has always been one of his agents (as we see from
"Voldemort's Request" in HBP) and a member of the Order. I think that
Albus and Aberforth worked out this escape route long before. Either
that or the RoR "knew" that it was safe to create a passage through
Ariana's portrait into the Hog's Head, which seems unlikely. 
> 
> 13) After girls starting moving in, the Room of Requirement sprouts
"a pretty good bathroom."  What did the boys do before then?

Carol:
I think we're looking at a difference between American and British
English. I don't think that the boys thought that they needed a
*bath*room, only a toilet (with, presumably, a sink for washing their
hands). The girls, however, wanted a place to bathe and wash their
hair. I don't think the boys had to resort to chamber pots, but I
imagine they were rather in need of soap, water, shampoo, deodorant,
and clean clothes before the girls joined them and complained about
the odor.
> 
> 14) Neville quickly latched on to Harry, saying that Dumbledore had
left them a job to do.  Neville and the others truly consider
themselves Dumbledore's Army.  Neville states that the D.A. had proven
their loyalty to Dumbledore... and to Harry.  Before reading this did
you feel that the D.A. was loyal to Harry or simply a group that was
united against Umbridge and Voldemort?

Carol:
The DA in OoP was mostly a group united only in their desire to thwart
Umbridge and pass their OWLs (setting aside Marietta and Cho). The
Creeveys were Harry Potters' fan club. Only HRH, Ginny, Neville, the
Weasley Twins, and possibly Lee Jordan were really concerned about
Voldemort. In HBP, with Umbridge gone (and the Twins and Lee out of
school), the DA dissolves, with only Luna and Neville regularly
checking their coins. In DH, however, the threat of Voldemort is made
real by the inescapable presence of the Carrows (and the supposed DE,
Snape). Resistance becomes desirable, and the DA (minus Zacharias)
bands together, aided by Hagrid (and, secretly, by Snape). I think
that they gather in Harry's name and Dumbledore's, but that's like the
House Elves gathering under the figurative banner of "brave Regulus."
They have a cause, they have allies, they have, finally, a place to
hide. They're waiting fo Harry, and when Harry shows up, they're ready
to fight. Unfortunately, Harry at first underestimates both their
willingness and their ability to help him, just as he underestimated
Neville's, Luna's, and Ginny's willingness to fight in OoP.
> 
> 15) To enter the Ravenclaw common room you have to answer a
question, not simply remember a password.  What does this say about
the way Ravenclaws learn and how they apply their skills and knowledge?

Carol:
I think it's a perfect way of showing that they belong in that House
and reinforcing their view of themselves as clever and resourceful.
Fail to answer the riddle, and you sit outside until someone lets you
in. (McGonagall would have made a good Ravenclaw; Amycus Carrow
obviously would never have been considered for that House.)
> 
> 16)  Would any of you be interested in reading about what happened
at Hogwarts during Deathly Hallows?  ("Neville Longbottom and the
Rebellion at Hogwarts" sounds like a good read to me ^_^.)

Carol:
Like several others, I'd be much more interested in seeing the events
from Snape's point of view and seeing the measures he took to protect
the students without, of course, blowing his cover by openly opposing
the Carrows. Of course, Neville and the others would play a part, as
would the teachers, Madam Pomfrey, and a certain all-too-lifelike
portrait. Make that two portraits. I'd love to see more of old Phineas
Nigellus.

Carol, thanking everyone who made it through her lengthy responses!