Lily (was Complimenting a character )

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 184433

Carol earlier:
> > I'm no fan of Lily, but I certainly understand why she wanted
nothing to do with MWPP for her first five years (and perhaps even her
sixth) at Hogwarts. The mystery is why she ever married James at all.
Surely,
> > the absence of prejudice against Muggle-borns was not sufficient
> > reason to fall in love with him.
> > 
> > Carol, wondering what Lily thought when she found out (no doubt
> > post-Hogwarts) about her future husband's midnight adventures with a
> > werewolf
> >
> Kamion
> 
> I think it is in Prisoner of Azkaban, that Lupin tells Harry his
mother and father started to get out together, when they were made
HeadBoy and HeadGirl, which is the 7th year.

Carol:
Yes, I'm aware that they got together in seventh year and that they
were Head Boy and Head Girl, which would place them in each other's
company rather frequently (and force James to take on some new
responsibilities instead of fooling around all the time). I'm also
aware that James stopped hexing people (other than Severus Snape)
because they annoyed him, and only hexed Severus (who gave him a run
for his money) when Lily wasn't aroung--or, if Snape in HBP isn't
exaggerating, when he had backup from his three friends! But that's
still no indication of what she saw in him. A kindred spirit (she
liked mischief, too)? An athlete who messed up his hair just for her?
A defender of Muggle-borns and opponent of the Dark Arts (despite
bullying people using mere partially Dark hexes and jinxes at least
till the end of his fifth year and possibly in his sixth as well)? I
blame it on pheromones. :-) Or on what JKR finds appealing and
attractive. She considers Ginny spunky, after all, and Ginny resembles
James in her tendency to hex people (primarily Zacharias Smith)
because they annoy her. (I guess that she and I simply don't agree on
what constitutes attractiveness!)

Kamion: 
> Now as mysterious as it is that Lily falls for the charms of James 
Potter Dumbledore's reasons for making James Potter HeadBoy are [even
more mysterious].

Carol:

I agree, assuming that I'm correct in my bracketed addition. If not,
please accept my apologies for the emendation.

Kamion: 
> Unlesh we include ruthless manipulation of course James Potter was a
shining student and therefor with his dislike of Dark Arts a welcome
recrute for the Order of the Phoenix. But bribing him into this by
making Head-Mischief and Head-Arrogance HeadBoy doesn't sound as
responsible schoolpolicy to me.
> 
> In retrospect it looks that Dumbledore was willing to have the whole
of Hogwarts burned to the ground to block Voldemort. This may sound 
extreme, but having teachers employing with zero pedagogic skills
(Snape, Threlawney, Binns, Hagrid )says a lot of how important he 
education thought. <snip>

Carol responds:
I agree that Dumbledore's motives for making James Head Boy,
especially when he hadn't been a Prefect, are mysterious. (Gryffindor
favoritism, maybe? Or, as you say, giving power and authority to
opponents of Voldemort?) Granted, James was popular (at least among
Gryffindors), chiefly for his athletic prowess, and popularity is an
asset for a Head Boy (though not a prerequisite, given that Percy also
held the position!). I suspect that some of James's perceived
popularity in OoP was the result of the unwillingness of other
students to be hexed by him, but we don't have sufficient evidence to
know how any of his fellow students except the other Marauders and
Severus Snape actually felt about him. (Lily seems ambivalent, as if
her hormones and her better judgment are in conflict.) Possibly, DD
wanted someone whom the other Prefects and the students in general
would respect (in the sense of doing what that student said). He
clearly didn't want a Slytherin as Head Boy at that point, and Remus
Lupin had shown himself to be an ineffectual Prefect, so he was out of
the running. We know nothing about the Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw
candidates for the position.

We do know that James, like Lily, was a favorite of McGonagall and
that he did well in her class. Lupin and Black state that James was
the best in the school at everything he did, but they're biased in his
favor. We get no indication from Slughorn that James was any good at
Potions (in contrast to Lily and Severus), and Severus's detailed
answers in DADA indicate that he was exceptional in that subject, too.
All we know from James (or Sirius) is that they thought that the exam
was easy. They could be right, or their attitude could simply reflect
their usual arrogance. (Of course, they would get the werewolf
questions right. Odd that Wormtail wouldn't--unless he's just playing
dumb!) At any rate, I think that "the best in school at everything
they did" is an exaggeration based on spectacular success in
Transfiguration and, in James's case, Quidditch, with no indication of
inadequacy in any subjects to detract from that reputation. But,
clearly, they weren't the only bright students in their year, and
Lupin and Black clearly underestimate Severus Snape, who was better
than James at Potions and quite possibly DADA, as well.

To get back to Dumbledore, he does seem at times to put the defeat of
Voldemort ahead of the education of his students. (At least he doesn't
hire LV as a teacher!) I agree that Trelawney and Hagrid, both
protected persons, have "zero pedagogic skills" (at least their
subjects are not important academically), but I disagree that the same
can be said of Snape. He's an expert in both his fields, and students
do learn in his classes. Even Harry and Ron managed E's on the Potions
OWL, and if they paid attention, they'd learn a lot more. (Hermione
thrives in Snape's classes dislike his view of her as "an insufferable
know-it-all.") Granted, Neville doesn't, but who could be patient with
a student who starts off his very first class melting his lab
partner's cauldron and is still melting cauldrons into his fourth or
fifth year? He's sarcstic and he sometimes docks (or fails to grant)
points unfairly, but he knows his subjects (and Dumbledore has other
excellent reasons for keeping him on the staff). Binns, I agree,
should be sent off to teach some imaginary class or something. It's
unfair to the students to keep him on the staff. As Harry reflects at
some point, History of Magic could be interesting in the hands of a
competent teacher.

In Dumbledore's defense, until his last year as headmaster, he has
almost no opportunity to hire a competent DADA instructor. He does his
best with Lupin and the real Moody, not knowing that he's been
undermined in the second case, and he finally gives the position to
Snape in HBP, hiring another knowledgeable Potions Master to take his
place, but the dwindling supply of DADA teachers makes it harder and
harder to find a good one. (He's reserving Snape, I'm sure, until the
last possible year.) But the other core subjects--Transfiguration,
Charms, Herbology, and Potions--are all taught by experts during
Harry's six years at Hogwarts (and his sixth-year teachers for those
classes are all retained by Snape during his brief tenure as
Headmaster). IOW, Dumbledore makes sure that the subjects that matter
most (except DADA, which is partially out of his control because of
the jinx that LV placed on it) are taught by highly competent
teachers. Even Snape, hired at twenty-two, is a veteran teacher by the
time Harry comes to Hogwarts. (We in Muggleland may not approve of his
methods, but the WW doesn't seem to mind, and most students (e.g.
Ernie Macmillan) learn what he teaches.

At any rate, I'm sure that you were exaggerating for effect in stating
that DD was "willing to see Hogwarts burn to the ground to block
Voldemort," but you do seem to regard his "ruthless manipulation" as
more extensive than I do. I think that he did value the education of
his students but left it largely in the hands of the Heads of Houses
(not coincidentally in charge of the core subjects), but he was also
concerned with defeating Voldemort (and protecting certain people who
were likely to be used or victimized by him, notably Trelawney and
Hagrid). Snape, a competent teacher, valued spy, and secret protector
of Harry Potter, is another matter altogether. (Binns, I agree,
there's no excuse for. Chalk him up to JKR's whimsy.)

To get back to James as Head Boy, I suspect that Dumbledore, like JKR,
felt that Gryffindor values were needed in times of crisis, which the
rise of Voldemort certainly was, and James, for better or worse,
exemplified Gryffindor values.

Carol, noting that Dumbledore, for all his manipulativeness, is
himself manipulated by JKR