Lily (was Complimenting a character WAS: Re: HBP CHAPTERS 7-9 POST DH LOOK

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 184435

Alla wrote:
> > 
> > Since to me Lily's comment is an evidence a plenty, I believe that
his using M words to other Muggleborns is definitely his ugly
viewpoint, but I would say as much, I do believe that he changed in
that regard.
> > 
> > I think him telling Phineas not to use M word is a strong evidence
of that indeed, but when he was young? I think since that first
comment to Lily, I think he could not stand Muggleborns, even if it is
implied and the only evidence is his conversations with Lily and I
think Lily simply had it. ,snip>

Magpie replied:
> That's the way I see it too. I think Snape was already indoctrinated
into the Slytherin mindset, but wants to make an exception of Lily 
from the very beginning--not unusual, really. I think SWM was the one
 and only time he let Lily see that side of him, but that Lily heard
about and so knew about it before then. <snip> I don't think he ever 
referred to a Muggleborn as a Mudblood in front of Lily and she was 
able to hold on because of that, but once he did it in front of her 
(and to her) she hit him with the fact that she knew this wasn't
unusual for him.

Carol responds:

"Knew"? Or assumed? It's not a *fact* that such behavior is not
unusual for him if there's no evidence to back it up. It's just an
assumption on her part and yours.

Obviously, we all interpret these scenes in our own way, and I'm not
saying that you're wrong, only that I see it differently. For me,
since Lily's accusation is not supported by any canon evidence and she
retained his friendship up to the point when he called *her* a
"Mudblood," I see no reason to believe that he routinely used it. I
agree that he didn't do so in front of her or she'd have ended the
friendship then and there. Possibly, she once heard that he'd used the
term and confronted him. ("Mary Whateshername told me that you called
her a Mudblood. Is that true?") Having done it once or a few times, he
could hardly deny having used the term and remains silent. But we see
no examples of his actually doing so and therefore have no gauge but
our own assumptions to determine to our own satisfaction to what
extent he believed and espoused the Pure-Blood supremacy doctrine. We
*do* know that he hated the two Muggles of his acquaintance but did
not extend that hatred to Lily, and we can deduce that he was
self-conscious and defensive about his status as a Half-Blood based on
the nickname Half-Blood Prince (which I think he applied to himself
for his own comfort and consolation). But that very awareness that he,
a Half-Blood, was as talented as any Pure-Blood (and that his friend
Lily, a Muggle-born, was also bright and talented) would, I think,
have worked against the prejudice with which he was daily confronted
in Slytherin House. (His HoH Slughorn's inclusion of a few chosen
Muggle-borns in the Slug Club would also have worked to counter the
influence of his fellow Slytherins, such as Avery and Mulciber, at
least until Lily ended their friendship. And even then, I suspect that
he didn't wholeheartedly subscribe to the DE ethic, at least not
publicly, or Sirius Black would have known that he became a Death Eater.)

I also see no reason to believe that he hated Muggle-borns or *lied*
to Lily, as Alla says, when he said as a child that being a
Muggle-born wouldn't make any difference. The hesitation suggests that
he thought it *might* make a difference to some people, but since he
thinks and hopes that Lily can get into Slytherin with him, he clearly
doesn't realize how widespread the prejudice is, especially among
Slytherins, and that Muggle-borns simply are not admitted to Slytherin
(no doubt per Salazar Slytherin's explicit instructions). And, again,
he thinks that Slytherin is the House for brains, where both he and
Lily belong.

Magpie wrote: 
> Unfortunately for me, since there's so little focus on changing this
mindset I wind up taking Snape's comment to Nigellus as being more
about his own bad associations with the word than any major repulsion
to the ideas. It's not that I think he's actively prejudiced against
Muggleborns in canon or anything. It's just that the themes of the 
books were personal. The bigotry themes are more about Voldemort 
rather than Voldemort's beliefs being used to focus on education about
bigotry.

Carol responds:

there can't be any focus on Snape's changing his mindset since his
motives have to remain hidden until "the "Prince's Tale," in which
there's only room for memories that relate to Lily or otherwise help
Harry to understand that Snape is helping and protecting him. I see no
reason not to extend his aversion to the word "Mudblood" beyond his
personal experience to the implications of the word. If he ever
wholeheartedly believed in Pure-blood supremacy (and I don't see how
he could, being a Half-Blood himself), or at least in "Mudblood"
inferiority, Lily excepted, I think he lost that belief when he saw
what it led to. Refusal to use the word "Mudblood" as an adult would
be part of his opposition to Voldemort. He certainly never uses it in
Harry's hearing, even when they're alone. And telling Phineas
Nigellus, a Pure-blood supremacist (or the portrait of one) seems to
me to have no reference to anything but Phineas's own behavior and
ideology. In essence, Headmaster Snape is telling a subordinate (a
portrait sworn to obey him) that he won't tolerate that particular
word. And it's interesting that the Muggle-born he's protecting from
an insult she'll never hear is that insufferable know-it-all, Hermione
Granger.

Obviously, we all have our own views on the matter, but I take the
evidence here at face value. It's the word itself, and Phineas's use
of it, that Headmaster Snape is objecting to. It's not just about Lily
any more. It's about opposition to Voldemort and everything that he
stands for, even if that means protecting Harry only so that he can
become a "pig to the slaughter" instead of protecting him at all costs
because he's Lily's son and he doesn't want her to have died in vain;
even if it means risking detection by using Sectumsempra on a Death
Eater's hand to save the life of Remus Lupin. It means watching people
die only if he cannot save them.

At any rate, in a court of law, one person's accusation against
another must be backed up by solid evidence. I read accusations of one
character by another in the same light. There must be evidence to back
up the first character's charge for me to take it seriously. And the
only evidence we have is that young Snape eventually joined the Death
Eaters. We have no evidence that he himself ever used the term
"Mudblood" except in SWM--itself sufficient reason for him never to
say it again. For that matter, we have no evidence (or even any
accusation) that he himself used Dark Magic, only that his friends
Mulciber and Avery did so.

I agree that the motives in this book (unless we count DD's greater
good, counterbalanced by his affection for Harry) are personal. We see
that not only in Snape but in Harry and Ron and Hermione and Narcissa
and Draco and the Weasleys and Sirius Black and Wormtail and just
about every other character whose motivations we're allowed to see.
But that doesn't mean that motivations that begin on the personal
level remain there or that an aversion to the word "Mudblood" that
began with the worst moment of Snape's tormented life never extended
beyond those personal associations. He would think about Lily and why
she hated the word and extend it beyond Lily to others, including
Hermione (whom he doesn't even like) just as he extends his
anti-Voldemort principles to actively saving or trying to save what
lives he can, not only Draco's and Dumbledore's but Katie Bell's and
Remus Lupin's (Lupin hates him and thinks the worst of him, but Snape
goes out on a limb to save him nonetheless. I'm quite sure that he
would have saved Charity Burbage had it been possible.)

Carol, imagining Dead!Snape seeking out Dead!Charity in the afterlife
to explain and apologize