[HPforGrownups] Re: The Role of Religion in the Potterverse

[k12listmomma]

No: HPFGUIDX 186218

> No.Limberger:
> The distinction that I make here with most is that I in now believe
> that she had any intent of writing what could be termed
> Christian novels because, I believe, while she may have drew
> upon personal Christian beliefs in writing Harry Potter, she
> also deliberately did not make religion a major component
> of the books.  Had her intent been to promote Christian
> beliefs, then the novels would reflect this far more than they
> currently do and ever will.

Shelley:
This is a false link though, thinking that one cannot use a Christ figure 
without first "intending to promote Christian beliefs". I'm reading the 
Young Wizards series by Diane Duane, and in the very beginning of the 2nd 
book- Deep Wizardry- the author sets up the Lone Power who invented death 
and pain, who is thrown out by the other Powers, a character who sets out to 
deceive 10 whales. The line is clearly there "we've seen this before, the 
apple and the serpent", and "even regular human beings have stories about 
it". It's a clear reference to the Biblical story in Genesis about Satan 
being kicked out of heaven, and about the fall of man, but this book, like 
Harry Potter, also has characters that do not actively engage in "worship" 
in the pages of the book, for that's irrelevant to the story being told. 
That doesn't stop the assertion in this book that "patterns repeat", and 
that the author is using that pattern to set up a story of a conflict that 
needs to be resolved. That is all Rowling is trying to do with Harry Potter- 
repeat a pattern so that she has a framework to write a story from. It's a 
false assertion that you have to "promote Christian beliefs" or 
"proselytize" to use ANY theme. It's a false assertion that one would need 
to be Christian to use those themes taken from Christianity. (I have no idea 
if Duane considers herself to be a Christian.) It's a false assertion that 
once you have a framework, that you have to add religion into all other 
components of that story.

> No.Limberger:
> As to the notion that some see Harry Potter as a
> "Christ figure", the definition of a "Christ figure" can be
> so broad that anyone who performs a heroic act is
> automatically a Christ figure.

Shelley:
I know of no literatary evaluation material that generically equates "any 
hero" with "Christ-figure". Some quotations of where you are getting this 
premise from might help.

If that is your definition, then surely Harry would be a Christ-figure, 
solely because he's a hero. But, that is not the definition that I am using, 
and not the definition that most of us are using. A Christ-figure to me just 
isn't any hero, he/she must meet specific criteria that mirror Christ's 
life: dying for sins or some redemption or reconciliation that cannot be 
accomplished without that death; the death must be willing and understood 
before undertaking that risk; rising again is what accomplishes the mission 
(not the death itself). I reject your definition of a Christ-figure as being 
broad; rather, I see it as quite narrow. And, I will also point out that my 
definition DOES NOT include a premise of a "sinless life" or perfection, for 
only Christ alone was perfect, and that no character written as a human 
being could fit that model. Given that all human beings are flawed, Harry's 
flaws, and even his use of Unforgivable Curses, do not erase the choices 
that would follow: the willing walk to death so that he could defeat 
Voldemort and save the WW.

> No.Limberger:
>  If people want to see Harry Potter as a
> Christ figure, they can certainly do so, just as followers
> of other religions can equate the stories to their own
> personal religious beliefs.  It's all a matter of perception,...

Shelley:
I think you are confusing "perception" with weighing facts and evidence to 
see if it fits. It's not "Christians" who are seeing the pattern of their 
own faith and "wishing it to be so" in Harry Potter, but educated people who 
know of a story and can match up likenesses and repeated themes in 
literature. Surely, as I pointed out before, the "story" of Christianity, of 
Christ's death and resurrection, is known throughout the world, so that a 
Muslim or a Jew or someone from another faith still might recognize the 
framework of where this story comes from. Even they could see the repeated 
theme and assert that Harry is a Christ-figure. I do not need to be a 
Christian, or come from that "perception" to be well read enough to 
recognize Christian themes in literature. I know of no one in the world who 
has made this connection who has actively written about Harry actually being 
a model of some other religion, and pointed out all the facts that match 
that other religion. Again, if you have some quotations here from others who 
have made this connection, it would help, otherwise, I'm going to just 
assume that you are "guessing" this to be true, rather than have any facts 
that other people have percieved Harry to be a generic savior (or from 
another religion) rather than Christian based one.

> No.Limberger:
> including people who want to believe that JRK deliberately
> intended the novels to promote a Christian allusion.

Shelley:
Again, you are the only one asserting that Rowling was actively trying to 
promote Christianity- I see no evidence of that demonstrated in any of her 
interviews and public talks about this novel. She was writing a work of 
FICTION, and not a nonfiction "come to Christ" novel. Perhaps could you show 
us where you get this idea from?

Indeed, Alla asked you before to explain this, and yet you haven't. Here was 
his line, in case you missed it:

Alla:
I just want to know whose argument are you trying to rebut here? Quote 
please? Who argued that JKR attempted to use the novels to proselytize?

> No.Limberger:
> Christianity was not the first religion to promote a
> belief in life after death or an immortal soul, nor is it
> the only religion that promotes such beliefs today.

Shelley:
Ah, but, where is there evidence of "those other religions" in these novels? 
If, it is as you say, "a generic death and resurrection theme", where is 
your evidence that it's not "Christian"? I think there is plenty of 
evidence, particularly in DH, that is was Christianity alone that Rowling 
was drawing from. Direct Bible verses are quoted; not some other religious 
texts. It's clear she writes the setting as modern day UK, and it's been 
Christianity that has had the influence on UK during the time that Harry 
Potter lived, and even before then in the history of the WW, with evidence 
of friars and vicars. She doesn't rewrite UK in Harry's time to be the sole 
product of other religions- the Church featured is a Christian one, not from 
another religion. I think you would have to rewrite the books to erase 
direct biblical quotations and the Christian church if you wanted to 
eliminate the Christian influence from these books. But, even then, you 
could not erase Rowling's Christian influence in real life, nor her 
interviews claiming she used Christian themes.

> No.Limberger:
> People with strong Christian beliefs will readily
> identify with these concepts within Harry Potter.
> However, to conclude that the imagery was deliberately
> included to promote Christian beliefs lacks
> sufficient evidence.

Shelley:
Again, straw man. Where has ANYONE, other than yourself, argued that this 
imagery was used to PROMOTE Christian beliefs???

> No.Limberger:
> Additionally, the fact that
> the Judeo-Christian bible strongly condemns both
> witchcraft and homosexuality makes many
> Christians condemn the Harry Potter novels.

Shelley:
I fail to see how anyone's "reaction" to the novels, good or bad, has 
anything to do with a theme used in a book. NO author alive today can 
accurately predict the reaction to one's works. And, the reactions of a few 
people negatively to these books doesn't even have a bearing on my study of 
these works and my assertion that Harry is a Christ-figure. It's irrelevant 
to the points at hand.