Ron WAS: Re: DH reread CH 4-5

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 186274

Alla wrote:
<snip> 
> Do we really want to make it a context of who is the better friend to whom?  I can sure remember several instances of Harry acting like a jerk to Ron, but to me **nothing** what Harry did ever tops what Ron did when he left him and Hermione. Frankly, to me it was akin to betrayal. Yes, I know he came back and saved Harry's life, and that is why I still love Ron. However, after Harry and Sirius he used to be my third favorite character in the books. I cannot say so anymore. And I am now realizing that there is after all one character whose fate I am slightly bitter about, and it is Ron. <snip>

Carol responds:
I think we're back to Christian themes here, specifically, "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" and redemption through repentance. Ron is immediately remorseful and wants to return, but he has to stay away (as a kind of penance?) until the others are ready to speak his name (a sign that they're ready to forgive him). He *earns* Harry's forgiveness through his heroism, which also (IMO) redeems him, but Hermione's forgiveness is unearned. She has to allow her love to overcome her anger and resentment.

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven" (Matthew 18: 21-22).

Love, forgiveness, repentance, redemption, all in one scene of friends forgiving friends their trespasses. (Later, Harry forgives a man he once hated, illustrating another biblical theme, "Love thine enemies"--or those you think are your enemies!)

Personally, I loved the whole story of Ron leaving and returning and overcoming his personal demons by destroying the Horcrux. If he hadn't had those insecurities and jealousies, the Horcrux couldn't have tormented him and he couldn't have found the courage to surmount them and symbolically destroy them.

Alla wrote: 
> I was mad at Ron when he IMO abandoned Harry in GoF for so long, but really I know what it means to feel insecure and I cut him a slack, after all fourteen year old kid who stood by Harry for so long allowed his weaknesses and should be forgiven.

Carol:
I agree. However, Harry could have handled the whole situation better himself, but he chooses to withhold the information he learned from "Moody," that someone is trying to kill him. If he'd only told Ron the whole story, Ron would have understood. Instead, he just insists that he didn't put his name in, leaving Ron to think that he's not only lying but finding a way to put his name in without letting his best friend into the secret. It's the whole miscommunication and secretiveness thing again. Many problems would never have occurred if Harry had yielded to his impulse to tell the whole truth (for example, telling Lupin about the "Grim") or he or another character hadn't been interrupted at a crucial point. And we see where secretiveness leads Albus Dumbledore! At any rate, I don't blame Ron in this instance at all. It's just a misunderstanding that both boys regret, the kind of thing that happens to us all.

Alla: 
> But stakes were so raised in DH IMO that I was just shaking my head. I  did not really find Ron's being good at Quidditch and then not again to be that inconsistent for reasons that many already explained. But boy I hoped that Ron would learn something after GoF, that being that even if  you feel jealousy towards your best friend, you do not act upon it if you know that it is completely irrational IMO.
> 
> No, Ron Harry does not love Hermione, no Ron Hermione loves **you**. Yes, we cannot help how we feel, but I maintain that we can not act on our worst feelings if we choose to often enough.

Carol responds:
I think in this instance, we need to remember that the Horcrux is using Voldemort's powers of Legilimency to read Ron's deepest secrets and insecurities. He doesn't have Harry's defenses against Dark, mind-controlling spells, and he doesn't share a mind link with Voldemort that, in essence, enables him to understand how Voldemort thinks and resist the Horcrux's manipulation. He's as open to it as Ginny was to the diary (except that it doesn't present itself as a friend AFAWK). Hermione apparently doesn't have any deep insecurities for it to feed upon. Also, Hermione, the girl Ron loves, is alone in the wilderness with two boys, one of whom has shown himself repeatedly to be a hero, the other of whom is just an ordinary Wizard kid, okay at Quidditch, not great at schoolwork, not a famous hero. Of course, he's jealous. Of course, he's insecure. And, of course, the Horcrux picks up on and magnifies those jealousies. Maybe he could have controlled his actions (though not the feelings that prompted them) if it hadn't been for the malign influence of the Horcrux (and not having enough to eat--he hasn't been conditioned to deprivation to the same extent as Harry). I'm not saying that his action was excusable, only that it was understandable, possibly even inevitable, under the circumstances (as Dumbledore, who willed him the Deluminator, anticipated). 

All of us, even as adults, have said or done the wrong thing at times, especially under stress. And I think that Harry and Hermione both realize that. "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Hermione has engaged in vengeful behavior in other circumstances, including the conjured birds she hurled at Ron's head. Now, even though she's angry (to the point where Harry has to cast a Protego to prevent her from injuring Ron), she ultimately does the right thing and forgives him. Harry, too, has acted wrongly on occasion (though it's harder to think of a relevant example other than the Gof misunderstanding) and he knows that he's happier having Ron with him than away from him. They're best friends because they get along so well and understand each other, and Ron, unlike Harry or Hermione, is sometimes funny. They not only want him with them; they need him. 

Alla; 
> And the reason why I found the passage that I quoted to be annoying is not because I thought Hermione's behavior was great here. Of course not! I always said that Hermione is my least favorite member of the trio and I wanted her to be slapped and badly. I was annoyed **for Ron**, I wished he would get over it already. I wish I could read this passage like Shelley did, but unfortunately I agree with Carol, I think it is just foreshadowing of what is to come later in the book.

Carol:
I didn't enjoy it, either, but I loved the whole story of his return and reconciliation, both the humor and the pathos. To quote an old song lyric (instead of the KJB), "You don't know what you've got till it's gone." I think the whole episode cemented the relationship of the Trio as a threesome. Harry and Hermione had the terrible adventure with Bathilda!Nagini without Ron (I wonder how that would have been different if he'd been there--surely, he would have pointed out that "Bathilda" was speaking Parseltongue!), but they made no progress in destroying the Horcrux or moving on to other things (like visiting Mr. Lovegood) until he returned.

Anyway, being rather far from perfect myself, I can empathize with Ron, and I'm glad he returned and was forgiven and welcomed back, rather like the Prodigal Son (whose brother, like Hermione, had remained faithful but had no fatted calf presented to him).

In case anyone isn't familiar with the story, here's part of it:

"A certain man had two sons: And the younger of them <snip> took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. [When he was near to starvation, he said to himself,] 'I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.' And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.' But the father said to his servants, 'Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.' And they began to be merry.

"Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. And he said unto him, 'Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.' And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. And he answering said to his father, 'Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.' And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.'"

Or, as Jesus says in regard to a related parable in the same section of the Gospel of Luke with regard to a lost sheep, "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

Carol, seeing more and more biblical motifs in DH, whether or not they're intended