DH reread CH 6-7

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 186346

Carol earlier:
> > I'm not Pippin, of course, but I made a similar point in my own post, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/186314, that the sword is not Dumbledore's to give and that he's telling Harry through the will that Harry will need the sword to destroy the Horcruxes. (He's counting on Hermione, I think, to make the connection between Horcruxes and Basilisk venom and pass on that information to Harry, as she does after Scrimgeour leaves.)
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, I know. I however did not find your post to be helpful in clarifying  for me why Dumbledore would decide that will the object he does not possess is the best way to let Harry know that Harry needs it. And I chose to ask Pippin even though your post contained similar argument.

Carol responds:
Admittedly, it wasn't my most coherent post. :-) I do hope, though, that even though you chose to respond to Pippin, that you don't mind my responding. I think my position is the same as hers except that she sees the will as a back-up plan and I see it as the only plan. (DD knew that he was going to die and made the needed arrangements.)

You and I agree, I think, that he foresaw the need to give HRH the Deluminator, the book, and the Snitch, all of which were his to give (or already belonged to Harry in the case of the Snitch). Apparently, you think that the sword was also his to give. Scrimgeour says that it wasn't, and I've already presented his arguments which, apparently, you're rejecting *because* they're Scrimgeour's. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) They are, however, the only arguments or explanations that we have, and they are not corrected or contradicted elsewhere in the books. Hermione, our usual authority in the absence of Dumbledore, accepts them and stops arguing when Scrimgeour appeals to the authority of "reliable historical sources." My guess is that Hermione has, indeed, read something similar in the Hogwarts library books, quite possibly her old standby, "Hogwarts: A History," which would surely cover the subject of Godric Griffindor's sword.

Dumbledore's portrait also seems to agree with Scrimgeour. It (he?) doesn't tell Snape to give the sword to Harry or leave it for him to find. He emphasizes that it "*must* be taken under conditions of need and valor" (DH Am. ed. 689). Interestingly (to me), it's Ron who takes it under these circumstances and Ron who uses it. The next and only other user of the sword is Neville, to whom it also comes under conditions of need and valor, points that JKR takes care to emphasize. Harry never uses it after CoS. Clearly, he is not its rightful owner. If anything, the sword appears to be its own master.

We do know one thing for sure: Dumbledore did expect the will to be read. Harry asks Hermione "D'you think he knew the Ministry would confiscate his will and examine everything he'd left us?" and Hermione responds, "Definitely. He couldn't tell us in the will why he was leaving us those things" (132). Hermione also wonders why he didn't give them a hint while he was alive. The answer seems to be that he wanted them to figure out the answers for themselves.

"'And the sword,' said Ron finally. . . . 'Why did he want Harry to have the sword?'

"'And why couldn't he have just told me?' Harry said quietly. 'It was *there.* it was right there on the wall during all our talks last year. If he wanted me to have it, why didn't he just give it to me then?'" (134).

He comes up with no explanations, only that Dumbledore did not give it to him (possibly because he hoped to use it on another Horcrux but possibly, as Pippin and I have both suggested and Scrimgeour has canonically stated, because it wasn't his to give.)

But Hermione has already given them part of the answer, informing them that Basilisk venom is one of the few things that can destroy a Horcrux (104). Harry wonders at that point how Dumbledore destroyed the ring (105). They already have the information they need; they just haven't yet put it together. 

Even when Harry sees the Sword of Gryffindor lying at the bottom of a pool he doesn't figure out why he needs it, but he knows that he must pass some sort of test. "Accio, Sword!" doesn't word for the SoG any more than it worked for the fake Horcrux in HBP: "If it had been that easy, the sword would have lain on the ground for him to pick up, not in the depths of the frozen pool" (368). He remembers that Dumbledore told him back in CoS, "Only a true Gryffindor could have pulled *that* out of the hat." He asks himself what the qualities are that define a true Gryffindor and remembers the Sorting Hat's voice saying, "their daring, nerve, and chivalry set Gryffindor apart" (368).

I won't go into more detail here because I've already talked about it in my previous posts except to say that it's Ron, not Harry, who proves himself the "true Gryffindor" (DD's phrase) or the "worthy Gryffindor (Scrimgeour's phrase). Both of them know the sword's history and modus operandi. "It chose Harry," Hermione says earlier, but it chose him only for that occasion. It does not choose him now. 

I can find no fault (maybe you can) in Scrimgeour's words, "According to reliable sources, the sword may present itself to any worthy Gryffindor." They seem to be proven accurate by this event and by the sword's coming to Neville. Do you have any objection to them other than that they're spoken by Scrimgeour? And if he's right about the sword presenting itself to the worthy Gryffindor of its choice (a point that neither Harry nor Hermione disputes), he would also be right that it's "not the exclusive property of Mr. Harry Potter" (and not Dumbledore's property at all.

If I understand your post correctly, you also seem to think it's odd that Dumbledore would decide to use the will to convey a message to Harry (that he needs the sword of Gryffindor to destroy the Horcruxes). Yet Scrimgeour's informing Harry that Dumbledore has (rightfully or wrongfully) willed him the sword serves exactly that purpose. They don't need the sword itself--yet. Snape will deliver it when the time comes. They just need to figure out *why* they need it.

Admittedly, this process takes quite awhile. At first, the Trio only "lament... the fact that Scrimgeour had refused to pass on the sword" and try to figure out why he would have given them the other three objects at all(131). And even after they retrieve the locket Horcrux, they're no closer to knowing how to destroy it, not having any Basilisk fangs to hand.

However, once they have the Sword of Gryffindor, Harry knows instinctively why they need it--to destroy the Horcrux. He can even tell that "the thing inside" has sensed the presence of the sword and "had tried to kill him rather than let him possess it," which does suggest that Harry would have been worthy a second time, so I could be wrong about entering icy water and needing to destroy a Horcrux not meeting its criteria for "need" and "valor"--but in any case, Ron definitely met them and Harry knows it:

He tells Ron that he should destroy the Horcrux "because you got the sword out of the pool. I think it's supposed to be you." Dumbledore has taught Harry "about certain kinds of magic, the incalculable power of certain acts" (374). I won't go into the dramatic confrontation with and victory over the Horcrux, which I want to discuss later, but clearly, Harry is right. The sword is *not* his. Ron has earned the right to use it, more than meeting the criteria of need and valor.

I am trying to find the place in the book where HRH finally figure out that the Sword of Gryffindor will destroy the Horcruxes because it's been steeped in Basilisk venom (anybody?), but it doesn't really matter. Harry knew when the time came why he needed the sword, as he would not have known if DD had somehow been allowed to give it to him. As I've already stated, he knew that Scrimgeour would not allow him to give Harry the sword of Gryffindor. That being the case, what mattered was that Harry know that he needed it. And the will was the way to do that without anyone, including Scrimgeour, knowing *why* he needed it.

Let me ask you a question, simply trying to understand your position. Do you think that Dumbledore really thought that he owned the sword and had the right to bequeath it? It seems to me that his insistence that Snape set up "conditions of need and valor" (and Snape's already having a plan involving exactly those conditions) indicates otherwise. Do you also think that he didn't know that the Minister would read the will and examine the bequeathed possessions? Harry and Hermione think otherwise. Surely, then, he would also have known that Scrimgeour would not let him pass on the sword of Gryffindor to Harry. Snape (who had already promised to protect the Hogwarts students and must have known that both DD and LV wanted him to be headmaster after DD's death) would do that when the time came.

The only point I know of that you object to in my post is the use of Scrimgeour as an authority. I've tried to answer that point and clarify my other reasons for agreeing with Pippin. Are there any other points that you disagree with? (Whether it was the main plan or a back-up plan isn't really important. The point is that, IMO, he knew perfectly well that he couldn't will Harry the sword but needed to convey the message that Harry would need it without explaining why. So, along with figuring out why they needed the objects they did have, they had to figure out why they needed the Sword of Gryffindor, and, when the time came, pass a test of "need and valor" which DD had no doubt that they would pass.

Willing a sword that didn't belong to him to convey a cryptic message is perfectly in character for DD in my view. He never tells anyone more than they need to know and often tells them less, and he's been encouraging HRH to figure out riddles since SS/PS.

Sorry for the long post. If I knew which parts you find unconvincing, I could concentrate on them.

Carol, hoping that Pippin will also post