From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 2 16:59:22 2009 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 2 Aug 2009 16:59:22 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/2/2009, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1249232362.8.92332.m1@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187478 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 2, 2009 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2009 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 3 00:25:17 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 00:25:17 -0000 Subject: DH reread CH 31 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187479 "The Bloody Baron,yes", said the Grey Lady, and she lifted aside the cloak she wore to reveal a single dark wound in her white chest. "When he saw what he had done, he was overcome with remorse. He took the weapon that had claimed my life, and used it to kill himself. All these centuries later, he wears his chains as an act of penitence... as he should," she added bitterly" - p.496 Alla: Oh dear, call me very slow, but I may have had another revelation. I am sure we discussed what is the point of this tragic love story, but I am also pretty sure that I did not participate or did not remember. So forgive me for DUH moment, but is the point that Snape could have been Bloody Baron but for Dumbledore? Just as Baron he (of course he did not do it himself like Baron, but still works for me) helped kill woman he loved, just as Baron he was overcomed with guilt and remorse, but Dumbledore forced him to direct his remorse in more positive way? I mean Snape is described as suicidal that night. Or is there totally different point? "Now the fire was mutating, forming a gigantic pack of fiery beasts: f;aming serpents, Chimaeras and dragons rose and fell and rose again, and the detritus of centuries on which they were feeding was thrown up in the air into their fanged mouths, tossed high on clawed feet, before being consumed by the inferno. *** The smoke and heat were becoming overwhelming: below them the cursed fire was consuming the contraband of generations of hunted students, the guilty outcomes of thousand banned experiments, the secrets of countless souls who had sought refuge in the room" - p.508 Alla: Ok, I forgot how cool this deadly fire is - flaming Beasts, NICE, would love to see it, but not to be near by lol. And I wonder, does the second sentence that I typed up symbolises sort of cleansing of Hogwarts from all the secrets, as in together with Dumbledore leaving Hogwarts will become more open, etc? "IF WE DIE FOR THEM, I'll KILL YOU HARRY!" roared Ron's voice... Alla: Too funny, that's my Ron :) And I still do not know what the point of this scene was for Malfoy, seriously, I don't. That he does not leave his friends, we sort of knew that by now. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Aug 3 03:31:09 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 03:31:09 -0000 Subject: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187480 > Alla: > So forgive me for DUH moment, but is the point that Snape could have been Bloody Baron but for Dumbledore? Just as Baron he (of course he did not do it himself like Baron, but still works for me) helped kill woman he loved, just as Baron he was overcomed with guilt and remorse, but Dumbledore forced him to direct his remorse in more positive way? > > I mean Snape is described as suicidal that night. Or is there totally different point? Pippin: For one thing, we get the answer to Seamus's question from Book One "How did he get covered in blood?" :) But yes, I think we need to know what could have happened to Snape if his remorse had not been redirected. Alla: > And I still do not know what the point of this scene was for Malfoy, seriously, I don't. > > That he does not leave his friends, we sort of knew that by now. Pippin: I didn't know Draco was going to stay with Goyle. It showed that he can behave differently than he did in PS/SS, when he fled in panic from Quirrellmort, leaving Harry to his fate. Harry was not there to see Narcissa plead for Draco's life, nor to see Draco reacting with shame and disgust to the murder of Charity Burbage. Something had to happen to prepare Harry to understand why Narcissa was willing to save him. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 3 18:14:38 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 18:14:38 -0000 Subject: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187481 snipping canon > Alla: > > Oh dear, call me very slow, but I may have had another revelation. I am sure we discussed what is the point of this tragic love story, but I am also pretty sure that I did not participate or did not remember. > snip > ?? I mean Snape is described as suicidal that night. Or is there totally different point? Potioncat: Slow---I'm right there with you. I didn't pick up on this either. Until now I never really considered Snape as suicidal, but the more I think about it, the more likely it might have been. And that makes DD's manipulation of Snape a little less sinister. It wasn't just what Snape could do for him, but what he was doing for Snape. Snipping canon > Alla: > > Ok, I forgot how cool this deadly fire is - flaming Beasts, NICE, would love to see it, but not to be near by lol. > ?? And I wonder, does the second sentence that I typed up symbolises sort of cleansing of Hogwarts from all the secrets, as in together with Dumbledore leaving Hogwarts will become more open, etc? Potioncat: Let's hope WB is up to the task. I don't know if JKR is fully aware of the results of the secrets in her plot line. But this scene really does seem to be a cleaning out, doesn't it? >Alla: > "IF WE DIE FOR THEM, I'll KILL YOU HARRY!" roared Ron's voice... > snip > > And I still do not know what the point of this scene was for Malfoy, seriously, I don't. > ?? That he does not leave his friends, we sort of knew that by now. Potioncat: Did we? I was surprised he stayed, given his past, and that they did not seem loyal to him any more. It was clear they held him in no esteem. So, he isn't quite the toerag he used to be. (An arc we don't see for James.)(well, OK, James saved Severus.) Also, we needed the Fiendfire to destroy the Horcrux, so I suppose JKR decided to get a more out of it. I loved Ron's line! It's a joke, but he's clearly aware that they are risking their lives for these guys. This is why I'm so fond of Ron. He isn't "leading-man heroic", but he's heroic just the same. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 3 18:47:42 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 18:47:42 -0000 Subject: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187482 > Potioncat: > Slow---I'm right there with you. I didn't pick up on this either. Until now I never really considered Snape as suicidal, but the more I think about it, the more likely it might have been. And that makes DD's manipulation of Snape a little less sinister. It wasn't just what Snape could do for him, but what he was doing for Snape. Alla: But wait, now I am confused. Me thinking about Snape as suicidal was not even an inference, but straight from canon (or so I thought), I will double check when I am home, but I was pretty sure that narrator describes Snape looking as suicidal that night after Lily's death. I did not pick up on direct analogy between Baron and Snape, and that makes me slower than you lol, because at least you did not think of Snape as suicidal. As to whether it makes Dumbledore's manipulation more or less sinister, well to me as I said it before it makes it more sinister, since I was looking at that night conversation and saw a person who was not really clear headed to decide whether he is indeed willing to enter into life service to Dumbledore, you know? But I guess we can now say that with Baron author makes a point that Dumbledore was saving him from death. I am still not sure if I like his means though. I will address Draco later. JMO, Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 3 19:57:28 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 19:57:28 -0000 Subject: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187483 Alla wrote: > > Oh dear, call me very slow, but I may have had another revelation. I am sure we discussed what is the point of this tragic love story, but I am also pretty sure that I did not participate or did not remember. > > So forgive me for DUH moment, but is the point that Snape could have been Bloody Baron but for Dumbledore? Just as Baron he (of course he did not do it himself like Baron, but still works for me) helped kill woman he loved, just as Baron he was overcomed with guilt and remorse, but Dumbledore forced him to direct his remorse in more positive way? > > I mean Snape is described as suicidal that night. Or is there totally different point? Carol responds: I'm not sure that we're supposed to apply the Baron's story directly to Snape as if he would have shared the bloody Baron's fate if he'd committed suicide (I can't see Snape choosing to become a ghost and haunting Hogwarts or Godric's Hollow), but it's certainly a variation on the motif of unrequited or obsessive love (as is Bellatrix's weird obsession with Voldemort). I think the Bloody Baron is a foil to Snape, illustrating a less productive form of remorse (eternal self-punishment with no chance for atonement) without necessarily illustrating what might have happened to Snape himself. And, of course, it's part of Rowena Ravenclaw's story that JKR has withheld until DH for plot reasons. Alla: > > Ok, I forgot how cool this deadly fire is - flaming Beasts, NICE, would love to see it, but not to be near by lol. > > And I wonder, does the second sentence that I typed up symbolises sort of cleansing of Hogwarts from all the secrets, as in together with Dumbledore leaving Hogwarts will become more open, etc? Carol: Interesting idea. I'd thought of it more as an irreparable loss, especially the HBP's Potions book. I like cleansing better. But I wonder what will happen when someone wants a place to hide an object now. Will they be shown the ruins of the old storage place or will the process start all over with one object? There's no point in hiding an object in plain sight unless other junk is already there. > > "IF WE DIE FOR THEM, I'll KILL YOU HARRY!" roared Ron's voice... > > Alla: > > Too funny, that's my Ron :) > > And I still do not know what the point of this scene was for Malfoy, seriously, I don't. > > That he does not leave his friends, we sort of knew that by now. > Carol: I agree with you about Ron, but, as others have said, I don't think we knew that Draco was loyal to his friends, staying with and comforting the unconscious Goyle (rather pointless to comfort him, but still) and mourning Crabbe, who has rejected his authority (and nearly killed them all). Who knew that Draco could be that loyal (in marked contrast to Crabbe)? His reasons for being in the RoR are ambiguous, but he does try to stop Crabbe from killing or torturing anybody. I think the point is that Draco is not as cowardly or evil as Harry once thought him, but he's not heroic, either. Maybe he'd have made a better showing later with the DE if he hadn't lost his mother's wand to the Fiendfyre. And the whole incident sets up his later half-neutral, half-civil attitude toward Harry in the epilogue. Carol, just speculating From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 3 19:59:13 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 19:59:13 -0000 Subject: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187484 > Alla: > > But wait, now I am confused. Me thinking about Snape as suicidal was not even an inference, but straight from canon (or so I thought), I will double check when I am home, but I was pretty sure that narrator describes Snape looking as suicidal that night after Lily's death. I did not pick up on direct analogy between Baron and Snape, and that makes me slower than you lol, because at least you did not think of Snape as suicidal. Potioncat: I had a feeling I put too much into one paragraph without enough explanation. I just went myself to review canon. The scene has Snape saying "I wish I were dead" and DD answering something along the line of, "What good would that do?" It also describes how horrible Snape looks and describes DD as looking grim. I don't think the line "I wish I were dead" is enough to label a person as suicidal. Nor do I really think he would have gone out and killed himself. So I never took it as a suicidal scene. But JKR has also described his pain visually and she has written many characters with an obsessive love. She's warned us about the dangers of it and shown us other leathal outcomes of it. So I'm now willing to accept the suicidal reading as valid. And that would make a nice parallel between the Bloody Baron and Snape. There are many reasons I'm glad DD prevented his death, but at one is that even Slytherin doesn't deserve two such ghosts floating about. > Alla: > As to whether it makes Dumbledore's manipulation more or less sinister, well to me as I said it before it makes it more sinister, since I was looking at that night conversation and saw a person who was not really clear headed to decide whether he is indeed willing to enter into life service to Dumbledore, you know? Potioncat: But what he's really done is channelled Snape's love of and remorse for Lily into a positive direction. I think Snape could have changed his mind at any time. There was no fiery Unbreakable Vow in place. He continued to feel that protecting Harry was his way of honoring Lily. By HBP he was no longer distraught, nor was he limiting his actions to simply protecting Lily's son. Even though Snape was a fragile state of mind, I don't think what DD was wrong or even overly manipulative. Back to the Bloody Baron. What is it JKR has about obessive love? What put it into her head? Was it her first marriage--or something else? We have Merope, the Baron, Snape. Only Snape is able to bring something good of it. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Aug 3 20:05:53 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 20:05:53 -0000 Subject: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187485 > Alla: > > But wait, now I am confused. Me thinking about Snape as suicidal was not even an inference, but straight from canon (or so I thought), I will double check when I am home, but I was pretty sure that narrator describes Snape looking as suicidal that night after Lily's death. Pippin: I think it is an inference. Snape looked like "a man who had lived a hundred years of misery", peering "through a haze of pain". He wished out loud that he was dead. But he never said outright that he wants to kill himself. He also is described as "making a terrible sound, like a wounded animal", which ties into the description of him as Hagrid's hut is burning. "[H]is face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them." This parallel strengthens my belief that Snape's remorse in HBP is for James, whom he still hates as much as ever, but whom he would have wanted to save if he still could, just as he saved Lupin. Pippin I did not pick up on direct analogy between Baron and Snape, and that makes me slower than you lol, because at least you did not think of Snape as suicidal. > > As to whether it makes Dumbledore's manipulation more or less sinister, well to me as I said it before it makes it more sinister, since I was looking at that night conversation and saw a person who was not really clear headed to decide whether he is indeed willing to enter into life service to Dumbledore, you know? > > But I guess we can now say that with Baron author makes a point that Dumbledore was saving him from death. I am still not sure if I like his means though. > > I will address Draco later. > > JMO, > > Alla > From dehippern at ns.sympatico.ca Mon Aug 3 00:41:27 2009 From: dehippern at ns.sympatico.ca (friendlyh) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 00:41:27 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187486 > > Alla: > > However, however, I do not agree that he came even close to atone for relaying Prophecy to Voldemort **to Harry**,again not sure if that makes sense, will be happy to clarify later. Because since yes I believe he abused Harry in Hogwarts in and out of class, that to me not what person who wants to atone for contributing to taking away from the child the care and kindness of his parents does. friendlyh: Can I hop in here? I have just finished re-reading the Deathly Hallows and have to take issue with Alla. Snape when he revealed the "part" of the prophecy that he heard to Voldemort did not know that it would refer to Lily and James. At this time he was a Death Eater and as such was showing loyalty to his 'then' master. When he learned who was involved he begged Voldemort to reconsider at risk to himself. A person can only be sorry for something that they have done and try through future actions to make amends. He swore an oath to Dumbledore and kept it to the very end never waivering in his loyalty although he was always in great danger as a result. He did protect Harry. He never physically abused Harry although his feelings for Harry's father definitely coloured his approach to him. He made life difficult but he was there on a number of occasions to protect him through his actions within the school. He could have made life much more miserable - think Dolores Umbridge. And last but not least Harry in the end named one of his sons after Severus Snape and that should be the strongest indication of redemption. To quote Harry "one of the bravest men I knew was a Slytherin" friendlyh From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 4 02:19:43 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 02:19:43 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187487 > > friendlyh: To quote Harry "one of the bravest men I knew was a Slytherin" Pippin: IMO, it would sound pretty immature and ungrateful for Harry to say, "I don't care if Snape saved my life and my friends' lives more than once. He hurt my feelings when I was in school and I'll never forgive him." It would mean that Harry thought more of his feelings than his friends' lives. Pippin From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 4 02:38:38 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 02:38:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187488 > friendlyh: > Can I hop in here? I have just finished re-reading the Deathly Hallows and have to take issue with Alla. Alla: By all means :-) and welcome to the group! friendlyh: Snape when he revealed the "part" of the prophecy that he heard to Voldemort did not know that it would refer to Lily and James. Alla: That's right, he did not know that. How does him knowing that he gives up some unknown couple and their baby makes his conduct any better? friedlyh: At this time he was a Death Eater and as such was showing loyalty to his 'then' master. Alla: Indeed, he was a criminal and was showing loyalty to his master. I totally agree with that, I just disagree that this serves as any sort of mitigating circumstance of his conduct. friendlyh: When he learned who was involved he begged Voldemort to reconsider at risk to himself. Alla: Well, sure, he begged him to reconsider in part. Apparently even when he knew that James and Harry are the targets of Voldemort's attack he did not really care about two innocent lives. But sure, he wanted Lily to live. I completely agree with that, I just find that to be quite despicable. friendlyh: A person can only be sorry for something that they have done and try through future actions to make amends. He swore an oath to Dumbledore and kept it to the very end never waivering in his loyalty although he was always in great danger as a result. Alla: Sure, I agree with that. friendlyh: He did protect Harry. He never physically abused Harry although his feelings for Harry's father definitely coloured his approach to him. He made life difficult but he was there on a number of occasions to protect him through his actions within the school. Alla: I am afraid the fact that he did not abuse Harry physically does not earn him much praise from me. I do not disagree that he could have abused him more than he did, significantly more that is. friendlyh: He could have made life much more miserable - think Dolores Umbridge. Alla: Yes he could... He still gets no cookie from me I am afraid. The extent to which he did make Harry's life hard is enough for me to despise him. But sure he protected Harry's life untill Dumbledore told him not to, I agree with that. friendlyh: And last but not least Harry in the end named one of his sons after Severus Snape and that should be the strongest indication of redemption. To quote Harry "one of the bravest men I knew was a Slytherin" Alla: Well, yeah, Harry at the end is portrayed (IMO only of course) as all forgiving Christ like figure, I totally understand why he forgave Snape. JKR portrayed it the only way she could for me to actually swallow it. And I do not dispute Snape's bravery in fight against Voldemort. Pippin: IMO, it would sound pretty immature and ungrateful for Harry to say, "I don't care if Snape saved my life and my friends' lives more than once. He hurt my feelings when I was in school and I'll never forgive him." It would mean that Harry thought more of his feelings than his friends' lives. Alla: Well, then it is good that IMO Harry behaved Christ like and mature I guess :). Again as I always say I am being completely honest that the way she did it, I can buy it and admire the extent to which Harry can forgive people. However had he been portrayed less you know, self sacrificing and all, my reactions could have been quite different. JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 4 02:45:43 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 02:45:43 -0000 Subject: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187489 > > Alla: > > > > But wait, now I am confused. Me thinking about Snape as suicidal was not even an inference, but straight from canon (or so I thought), I will double check when I am home, but I was pretty sure that narrator describes Snape looking as suicidal that night after Lily's death. > > Pippin: > I think it is an inference. Snape looked like "a man who had lived a hundred years of misery", peering "through a haze of pain". He wished out loud that he was dead. But he never said outright that he wants to kill himself. Alla: Shakes head at herself. You (and Potioncat) are absolutely right. Talk about reading in the book what one wants to read. I mean, it is not that I even forgot that one, it is just in my head 'I wish I were dead" transformed into Snape being suicidal. I still think that it is a valid reading, but I totally agree that it is an inference and not plain reading of canon. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Aug 4 14:40:03 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 14:40:03 -0000 Subject: Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187490 > Alla: > > Shakes head at herself. You (and Potioncat) are absolutely right. Talk about reading in the book what one wants to read. I mean, it is not that I even forgot that one, it is just in my head 'I wish I were dead" transformed into Snape being suicidal. > > I still think that it is a valid reading, but I totally agree that it is an inference and not plain reading of canon. Potioncat: In the ABC-TV interview that recently ran in the US, JKR and the interviewer discuss how depression played a role in the evolution of the HP story. JKR says the plot was strongly affected by her mother's death. Also, that she dealt with depression after the break-up of her marriage. She worried about her daughter's well being while she was depressed. The Dementors represent depression's effects, but JKR also shows characters in the throws of depression. In the case of Dementors, a character needed a happy thought and to a certain degree, a patron/protector to overcome "depression." In Snape's case, having a mission-- a purpose-- helped pull him out of drepression. Would you say that's a fair statement? Yet, having a child wasn't enough to pull Merope out of her depression. Any thoughts on that? (I don't for a moment think having a baby is a cure for depression in RL. Just wondering how JKR was viewing it from a literary angle.) From quidditch.master at yahoo.com Tue Aug 4 17:54:52 2009 From: quidditch.master at yahoo.com (Quidditch.Master) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 10:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <782966.52811.qm@web111803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187491 Potioncat: In the ABC-TV interview that recently ran in the US, JKR and the interviewer discuss how depression played a role in the evolution of the HP story. JKR says the plot was strongly affected by her mother's death. Also, that she dealt with depression after the break-up of her marriage. She worried about her daughter's well being while she was depressed. The Dementors represent depression's effects, but JKR also shows characters in the throws of depression. In the case of Dementors, a character needed a happy thought and to a certain degree, a patron/protector to overcome "depression. " In Snape's case, having a mission-- a purpose-- helped pull him out of drepression. Would you say that's a fair statement? Yet, having a child wasn't enough to pull Merope out of her depression. Any thoughts on that? (I don't for a moment think having a baby is a cure for depression in RL. Just wondering how JKR was viewing it from a literary angle.) Quidditchmaster: I agree with you statement about Snape and I would add something else: not having a mission but having thismission helped Snape. He was told that by helping Harry he would be helping Lily, making amends, if you will, and somehow earning her forgiveness. We've seen in his memories that every time he wanted to give up on everything, that's what Dumbledore argued and Snape always caved. About having a child, one could argue that Merope's depression only agravated with the birth of Tom. It is a fact that many women suffer from postpartum depression so this could be her case. Also, she did hope that he looked like his father, so the fear of having to look at Tom's face and remember what she did, how she was dumped, etc, would have "helped" her give up on life. So maybe she did think that her son would be better off without her? Though I don't think that's what Rowling had in mind when writing about Merope. I believe JK Rowling used Merope as yet another comparison point between Harry and Voldemort. The "hero" gets the "good" mom who died for him to live whilst the "villain" got the "bad" mom who died in spite of him. Also, if you compare Lily and Merope and give them both depression, the way JK described them, Merope would be (and in fact was) the weak one who succumbed whilst Lily would be the one who would probably overcome it (not that I believe Lily would become depressed, but just for the sake of argument). Thoughts on that? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkoney65 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 4 22:05:50 2009 From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:05:50 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187492 > > jkoney: > > Atonement for his actions would be more believable to people if he had done it without Dumbledore roping him into it. Also if he done if for Harry and not just for the memory of Lilly. > > Julie: > I don't see how it would be more believable, given Snape's > character at the time. He *was* a working Death Eater, so to > speak. That he had a change of heart for any reason is a > bigger leap than any other Death Eater took. jkoney: He stopped being a working DE the moment he went to Dumbledore. He was with Dumbledore after the Potters were killed. That is not a working DE. Comparing Snape to other DE's isn't much of a comparison. > > > jkoney > > From the time he went to Dumbledore til the end he never cared about Harry, it was always for Lilly. That doesn't show me much if any growth in the character. > > > > Julie: > No, he didn't care for Harry. But what does that have to do > with anything? Or maybe it says more that he kept doing it > even though he so greatly disliked Harry. > > As for growth in his character, I think it is telling that > at the beginning Snape only did it for Lily. But by the end, > Snape did what was right just because it was right, like > saving Lupin during the Seven Potters chase (he could have > let his old enemy die without affecting his promise for Lily; > in fact it would have been safer to do so), and accepting > that it was more important to destroy Voldemort than to > protect Harry's life. jkoney: I think it says alot about his character that he hated a child that he never met and refused to judge him as a separate person. I can't really count him as saving Lupin. He didn't hit the other DE, he hit George. From jkoney65 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 4 22:14:29 2009 From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:14:29 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187493 > > jkoney: > > If he had lived, I doubt even Harry backing him would have influenced the people to forgive the man who killed Dumbledore. I'm not saying it would be right, but the herd mentality tends to rule. > > > Pippin: > Harry has a lot of influence over the herd. If we believe JKR, he eventually got Snape's portrait installed in the Headmaster's office, so while I doubt that Snape would have wanted to return as Headmaster, it doesn't seem impossible that he could have. > > No one in the books complains about Snape's teaching methods. Harry floats the idea that he deliberately sabotaged the occlumency lessons, but if anyone did that, it was Harry, who wanted his visions to continue. > > The Gryffindor kids hate that Snape's unfair, but nobody, even Harry, ever says that he'd be a better teacher if he was fairer. A better role model as a human being, certainly, but it's abundantly clear that Hogwarts does not consider that when hiring staff. jkoney: Fame is fickle. Harry couldn't even keep fellow students believing in him, let alone the wizarding world. His influence would not have stood up to the feelings that people had for Snape. A teacher who is unfair, insults and berates his students is not a good teacher. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Aug 5 03:05:25 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 03:05:25 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187494 > > jkoney: > Fame is fickle. Harry couldn't even keep fellow students believing in him, let alone the wizarding world. His influence would not have stood up to the feelings that people had for Snape. > Pippin: The students didn't spontaneously stop believing in Harry. They were misled by a sophisticated PR campaign orchestrated by the Ministry and the Daily Prophet. That same machinery is now in the hands of Kingsley Shacklebolt. He's not going to let people think that their beloved Headmaster was murdered on his watch. jkoney: > A teacher who is unfair, insults and berates his students is not a good teacher. Pippin: It's not me you'd have to convince. It's Headmistress McGonagall (according to ToBtB) and the Hogwarts Board of Governors. We don't know much about the board except that they didn't vote out Lucius Malfoy as a member until he resorted to blackmail. But I'd expect they're just as devoted to fairness and equality as any other wizarding institution We know what the Ministry considers an excellent teacher. It's one with a higher than normal pass rate. Which Snape had, not surprising since most of the other teachers were less demanding. And when it comes to insulting and berating students, it's a technique Snape must have learned from Minerva herself. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Aug 5 11:16:30 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 11:16:30 -0000 Subject: Mothers (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: <782966.52811.qm@web111803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187495 > Quidditchmaster: > I believe JK Rowling used Merope as yet another comparison point between Harry and Voldemort. The "hero" gets the "good" mom who died for him to live whilst the "villain" got the "bad" mom who died in spite of him. Also, if you compare Lily and Merope and give them both depression, the way JK described them, Merope would be (and in fact was) the weak one who succumbed whilst Lily would be the one who would probably overcome it (not that I believe Lily would become depressed, but just for the sake of argument). Thoughts on that? Potioncat: I wouldn't think of Lily in terms of handling depression. We don't see her even sad at any point. She's very comfortable in her own skin. Even when she ends the relationship with Severus, she does it and moves on. We don't see any glimer of regret at the way it turned out. She is a strong woman who makes decisions and acts on them, and is in control. But they do make an interesting comparison. It is two different types of mothers for two different characters. It has just crossed my mind that Merope and Lily may be two sides of JKR. Merope has some events in common with JKR. In the same ABC interview, JKR said that she has not spoken with her father in years, that she was afraid of him when she was a child, and that she tried for too long to please him and earn his love. We know she had an unhappy marriage, had a child to raise on her own, with little money and was depressed. Sounds very similar to Merope's story. Yet, she also overcame adversity, took care of her daughter, and moved on. From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed Aug 5 14:35:19 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 14:35:19 -0000 Subject: Mothers (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187496 > Potioncat: > But they do make an interesting comparison. It is two different types of mothers for two different characters. It has just crossed my mind that Merope and Lily may be two sides of JKR. > Pippin: I've thought that too. Lily might be JKR in her wildest dreams: beautiful, charming, super-talented, tough, capable and protective, married into wealth and privilege. And Merope is the opposite: a woman deprived of every resource. By killing both characters, perhaps JKR symbolically put both those fantasies to rest. I think Lupin gives us a little insight into Merope and helps us see her as something more than a "bad" mom who abandoned her child. If Lupin could think that his child would have a better life without him, then imagine what Merope might have thought of herself: broke, friendless, uneducated, abandoned by the husband she'd forced into marriage, and the only family she knew in jail. Pippin > Merope has some events in common with JKR. In the same ABC interview, JKR said that she has not spoken with her father in years, that she was afraid of him when she was a child, and that she tried for too long to please him and earn his love. We know she had an unhappy marriage, had a child to raise on her own, with little money and was depressed. Sounds very similar to Merope's story. Yet, she also overcame adversity, took care of her daughter, and moved on. > From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 5 15:05:56 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 15:05:56 -0000 Subject: Mothers (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187497 > Pippin: > I think Lupin gives us a little insight into Merope and helps us see her as something more than a "bad" mom who abandoned her child. > > If Lupin could think that his child would have a better life without him, then imagine what Merope might have thought of herself: broke, friendless, uneducated, abandoned by the husband she'd forced into marriage, and the only family she knew in jail. Alla: Seriously, if JKR thought (and I don't know that she did think that) that she needed to work hard to make me feel pity for Merope who died and "left" Tom alone, the effort was not needed really. I do not know how one can not feel pity for new mom who is penniless, broke, hungry and dying not knowing what is going to happen to her child. I would not have ever called her a "bad" mother. Now, the fact is of course that I cannot feel much pity for Merope due to what I perceive her forcing herself on a guy, basically raping himself and ruining his life. However if the only thing that I had known about her were the circumstances of her death, I would not have ever said that she did anything bad or called her a "bad" mother. I still do not call her a bad mother, just a human being around whom I would not have wanted to be around. I understand Lupin's fears, unjustified as they were and I can totally understand Merope's despair leaving her child alone in the world, I just think that maybe carma caught up with her after all. JMO, Alla From sherriola at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 16:15:13 2009 From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 09:15:13 -0700 Subject: lupin's motives (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187498 Pippin: I think Lupin gives us a little insight into Merope and helps us see her as something more than a "bad" mom who abandoned her child. If Lupin could think that his child would have a better life without him, then imagine what Merope might have thought of herself: broke, friendless, uneducated, abandoned by the husband she'd forced into marriage, and the only family she knew in jail. Sherry now: First I want to say how much I liked the idea that the two mothers, Merope and Lily, are two parts of JKR. I had never thought of that before. Thanks Potion Cat! But now to Lupin. I don't think that Lupin was truly considering his child at all in DH when he goes to Harry saying he wants to tag along. I had always liked Lupin in the series before, though I wanted to shake him a bit for not stepping in and becoming more of a friend or parental figure to Harry. However, after that scene in DH, I despised him and my whole view of him as a character was changed forever. It's affected my reading of him in earlier books, even POA, more than DH affects my enjoyment of other characters in earlier books, like DD. Lupin spoke out of cowardice and shame. Instead of accepting who and what he was, and trying to be a good husband and father--nobody twisted his arm or used a love potion on him--he wants to run away like the chicken he is! It really pushes my buttons big time. He's always been the series metaphor for disability to me, and as a person with a disability myself, I can sympathize with his fear and concern; I can sympathize with the problems his disability causes him, but I can't sympathize or respect him for wanting to run away from the people who love him, and from his responsibilities. To me, Lupin is another example of bad fathering, another JKR dig at fathers in general. She doesn't pain them too well in her series, except for Mr. Weasley. Sherry From jkoney65 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 5 22:27:06 2009 From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 22:27:06 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187499 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > > > > jkoney: > > Fame is fickle. Harry couldn't even keep fellow students believing in him, let alone the wizarding world. His influence would not have stood up to the feelings that people had for Snape. > > > > Pippin: > The students didn't spontaneously stop believing in Harry. They were misled by a sophisticated PR campaign orchestrated by the Ministry and the Daily Prophet. That same machinery is now in the hands of Kingsley Shacklebolt. He's not going to let people think that their beloved Headmaster was murdered on his watch. jkoney: It sure seemed like the students stop believing in Harry his second year when he spoke parseltounge. Also they didn't seem to believe him his fourth year when he said he didn't enter the TWT. > > jkoney: > > A teacher who is unfair, insults and berates his students is not a good teacher. > > Pippin: > It's not me you'd have to convince. It's Headmistress McGonagall (according to ToBtB) and the Hogwarts Board of Governors. We don't know much about the board except that they didn't vote out Lucius Malfoy as a member until he resorted to blackmail. But I'd expect they're just as devoted to fairness and equality as any other wizarding institution > > We know what the Ministry considers an excellent teacher. It's one with a higher than normal pass rate. Which Snape had, not surprising since most of the other teachers were less demanding. And when it comes to insulting and berating students, it's a technique Snape must have learned from Minerva herself. jkoney: As I said upthread, I doubt his former students would want to subject their children to his tactics. Compared to Snape who insults and berates any student who isn't in his house whether they are intelligent or not, Minerva is an amateur. From jkoney65 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 5 22:32:48 2009 From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 22:32:48 -0000 Subject: lupin's motives (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: >> > Sherry now: > > But now to Lupin. I don't think that Lupin was truly considering his child > at all in DH when he goes to Harry saying he wants to tag along. I had > always liked Lupin in the series before, though I wanted to shake him a bit > for not stepping in and becoming more of a friend or parental figure to > Harry. However, after that scene in DH, I despised him and my whole view of > him as a character was changed forever. It's affected my reading of him in > earlier books, even POA, more than DH affects my enjoyment of other > characters in earlier books, like DD. Lupin spoke out of cowardice and > shame. Instead of accepting who and what he was, and trying to be a good > husband and father--nobody twisted his arm or used a love potion on him--he > wants to run away like the chicken he is! It really pushes my buttons big > time. He's always been the series metaphor for disability to me, and as a > person with a disability myself, I can sympathize with his fear and concern; > I can sympathize with the problems his disability causes him, but I can't > sympathize or respect him for wanting to run away from the people who love > him, and from his responsibilities. To me, Lupin is another example of bad > fathering, another JKR dig at fathers in general. She doesn't pain them too > well in her series, except for Mr. Weasley. > > Sherry > jkoney: I thought the scene with Lupin was a very realistic one. A father to be with no ability to support his family, an outcast from society panics. What he needed was a friend to talk some sense into him. And in his own way that's what Harry did. The next time we see him, Lupin is a proud father asking Harry to be the godfather of his child. From quidditch.master at yahoo.com Wed Aug 5 20:42:09 2009 From: quidditch.master at yahoo.com (Quidditch.Master) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 13:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] lupin's motives (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <633657.5214.qm@web111814.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187501 Sherry: But now to Lupin. I don't think that Lupin was truly considering his child it all in DH when he goes to Harry saying he wants to tag along. I had always liked Lupin in the series before, though I wanted to shake him a bit for not stepping in and becoming more of a friend or parental figure to Harry. However, after that scene in DH, I despised him and my whole view of him as a character was changed forever. It's affected my reading of him in earlier books, even POA, more than DH affects my enjoyment of other characters in earlier books, like DD. Lupin spoke out of cowardice and shame. Instead of accepting who and what he was, and trying to be a good husband and father--nobody twisted his arm or used a love potion on him--he wants to run away like the chicken he is! It really pushes my buttons big time. quidditchmaster: I had never thought too long or too much about Remus except to also wanting to shake him up and stepping up as a parental figure to Harry, but you make an excellent point and it got me thinking: maybe the knowledge of Remus' cowardice and acceptance of failure was what got James and Sirius thinking that he might be the one snitching on the Order the first time around? True that Voldemort is against half-breeds but he works with Fenrir to an extent and doesn't seem like a guy who would dismiss yet another werewolf working for his cause, especially one with the contacts Lupin had. Sherry: He's always been the series metaphor for disability to me, and as a person with a disability myself, I can sympathize with his fear and concern; I can sympathize with the problems his disability causes him, but I can't sympathize or respect him for wanting to run away from the people who love him, and from his responsibilities. To me, Lupin is another example of bad fathering, another JKR dig at fathers in general. She doesn't pain them too well in her series, except for Mr. Weasley. quidditchmaster: And James. It is true that we never saw first handed the kind of parent James was, but he did die to save his family. Maybe this is another wishful thinking on JKR's part: a father who died can't be a bad father. We do hear that James wasn't exactly a saint, but no one ever said a word about his fathering. I agree with Sherry on the take on Lupin. He is the guy who thinks his family would be better off without him so he bails (tries to get himself killed, more likely). Just like Marvolo is the scary dad who bullies his daughter. And Vernon is the guy who can't teach his son the difference between right and wrong and how to go about things in life. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quidditch.master at yahoo.com Wed Aug 5 20:50:54 2009 From: quidditch.master at yahoo.com (Quidditch.Master) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 13:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mothers (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <622970.45296.qm@web111801.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187502 potioncat: I wouldn't think of Lily in terms of handling depression. We don't see her even sad at any point. She's very comfortable in her own skin. Even when she ends the relationship with Severus, she does it and moves on. We don't see any glimmer of regret at the way it turned out. She is a strong woman who makes decisions and acts on them, and is in control. quidditchmaster: And that was exactly my point. Lily was stronger than Merope and therefor her son is the good guy. I know it is a shoty comparison, but it is made in HBP when Harry pities Voldemort because his mother left him alone. JKR brings up that comparison when Harry thinks "How could his (Voldemort) mother do that?" (or something along those lines). Pippin: I've thought that too. Lily might be JKR in her wildest dreams: beautiful, charming, super-talented, tough, capable and protective, married into wealth and privilege. And Merope is the opposite: a woman deprived of every resource. By killing both characters, perhaps JKR symbolically put both those fantasies to rest. potioncat: But they do make an interesting comparison. It is two different types of mothers for two different characters. It has just crossed my mind that Merope and Lily may be two sides of JKR. quidditchmaster: Right, the ideal mom. And also, maybe JKR did feel depressed enough to consider if her child wouldn't be better off without her. The existence of those two characters can be how she felt the time she was depressed: in one hand she was depressed, sad and lonely and all that and on the other hand she knew she had to (and wanted to) be strong for her daughter's sake. potioncat: Merope has some events in common with JKR. In the same ABC interview, JKR said that she has not spoken with her father in years, that she was afraid of him when she was a child, and that she tried for too long to please him and earn his love. We know she had an unhappy marriage, had a child to raise on her own, with little money and was depressed. Sounds very similar to Merope's story. Yet, she also overcame adversity, took care of her daughter, and moved on. quidditchmaster: I didn't see the interview, but that makes a good point. Maybe she did use Lily and Merope as the yin and yang of motherhood? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 6 02:40:19 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 02:40:19 -0000 Subject: Fathers WAS: lupin's motives (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187503 Sherry: To me, Lupin is another example of bad > fathering, another JKR dig at fathers in general. She doesn't pain them too > well in her series, except for Mr. Weasley. Alla: Hey, I am snipping your post Sherry just to react to your last two sentences. I totally agree with you about JKR not portraying fathers too well in her series, but am I dreaming or there was an interview where she said that untill certain moment she did not realize that exactly and then she could not bring herself to kill Arthur? I never found anything strange with author's writing reflecting his or her personal joys and sorrows, exorcising her demons, reflecting what he or she went through, etc. So if JKR did not have a good relationship with her father, I would have totally understand that she could not or did not want to portray good father figure in the series. I mean, after all from what I understand Jane Austen did not have a good relationship with her mother and her mother figures are accordingly pretty empty headed and annoying, to me anyway. But if JKR truly did not realize what she was doing? I just find it interesting. And how much of it is not an influence of her childhood, but simply requirements of the genre? For all father figures to have significant flaws in order for hero to step out and eventually to become better than all of them. I mean, I know you understand me as another Sirius' fan that I find the remark about Harry being better Godfather to Teddy than Sirius was to him to be well, how to put it? Disagreeable, hehe. I was thinking that I would have responded - no, really JKR? The guy who spend half of his life in Azkaban and came back half crazy was worse Godfather? He tried as far as I am concerned and tried hard. I adore Harry, but no, I do not believe that in being Godfather to Teddy he had as much stacked against him as Sirius had (I am not talking about Harry's general hardships, just that *to be godfather* he did not have to escape Azkaban, etc, etc, etc). I will not even start talking about Dumbledore here lol. So anyways, I find all of this fascinating and just wanted to ramble. JMO, Alla From juli17 at aol.com Thu Aug 6 03:01:18 2009 From: juli17 at aol.com (julie) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 03:01:18 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187504 > > > > > jkoney > > > From the time he went to Dumbledore til the end he never cared about Harry, it was always for Lilly. That doesn't show me much if any growth in the character. > > > > > > > Julie: > > No, he didn't care for Harry. But what does that have to do > > with anything? Or maybe it says more that he kept doing it > > even though he so greatly disliked Harry. > > > > As for growth in his character, I think it is telling that > > at the beginning Snape only did it for Lily. But by the end, > > Snape did what was right just because it was right, like > > saving Lupin during the Seven Potters chase (he could have > > let his old enemy die without affecting his promise for Lily; > > in fact it would have been safer to do so), and accepting > > that it was more important to destroy Voldemort than to > > protect Harry's life. > > > jkoney: > I think it says alot about his character that he hated a child that he never met and refused to judge him as a separate person. Julie: It does say something about his character, and it's not good. It says that he was so consumed by bitterness that he couldn't see Harry separate from his enemy James, and was unwilling or unable to judge Harry on his own merits. But it doesn't say everything about his character... jkoney: > > I can't really count him as saving Lupin. He didn't hit the other DE, he hit George. Julie: Snape's intent was to interfere with the DE and save Lupin. We know his spell went awry and hit George, but we don't know if the spell also deflected the DE's spell aimed at Lupin. Maybe, maybe not. But I don't really care. Snape's *intent* was fully altruistic, and that is the important point in assessing his character. At some point during his time with the Order and Dumbledore, Snape came to value life, all life, not just value the lives of those few--or one--he personally cared for. Julie From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 6 03:07:55 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 03:07:55 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187505 > Julie: > Snape's intent was to interfere with the DE and save Lupin. > We know his spell went awry and hit George, but we don't know > if the spell also deflected the DE's spell aimed at Lupin. > Maybe, maybe not. But I don't really care. Snape's *intent* > was fully altruistic, and that is the important point in > assessing his character. At some point during his time with > the Order and Dumbledore, Snape came to value life, all life, > not just value the lives of those few--or one--he personally > cared for. Alla: I agree, Snape did a lot of things I can hate him for, but when cold hard plain canon is showed down my throat, how can I deny it? Snape chose to interfere to save **Lupin**, Lupin of all people. For that he certainly gets a cookie, or maybe even two from me :-) I wish that besides valuing a life he would have learned that people like to be treated decently and fairly (especially when he is in the position of power of more vulnerable than he is - his students). I do not think he ever learned that lesson sadly. However, however I fully believe that if Snape of these days would have gotten a second chance to replay that night with Dumbledore he would have definitely asked Dumbledore to save James and Harry as well, without any nagging from Dumbledore that is. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Aug 6 03:32:19 2009 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 03:32:19 -0000 Subject: Fathers WAS: lupin's motives (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187506 > Alla: > > Hey, I am snipping your post Sherry just to react to your last two > sentences. I totally agree with you about JKR not portraying > fathers too well in her series, but am I dreaming or there was an > interview where she said that untill certain moment she did not > realize that exactly and then she could not bring herself to kill > Arthur? Jen: I was just thinking about Rowling's 'litany of bad fathers' comment while reading the thread about mothers. Here's the quote from Time Magazine in 2005: "Much of Rowling's understanding of the origins of evil has to do with the role of the father in family life. "As I look back over the five published books," she says, "I realize that it's kind of a litany of bad fathers. That's where evil seems to flourish, in places where people didn't get good fathering." Some of that must surely flow from her own experiences: her relationship with her father has been uneven, and the father of her oldest daughter is no longer part of Rowling's life." In a separate interview on Dateline in 2007, JKR had this to say: MV: So as an author, then, there were certain characters you couldn't bear to part with? JKR: If there's one character I couldn't bear to part with, it's Arthur Weasley. And I think part of the reason for that is there were very few good fathers in the books. In fact, you could make a very good case for Arthur Weasley being the only good father in the whole series. Alla: > I never found anything strange with author's writing reflecting his > or her personal joys and sorrows, exorcising her demons, reflecting > what he or she went through, etc. > > So if JKR did not have a good relationship with her father, I would > have totally understand that she could not or did not want to > portray good father figure in the series. > But if JKR truly did not realize what she was doing? I just find it > interesting. Jen: The Time article makes it sound like Rowling didn't realize how she portrayed fatherhood in the series until after OOTP. The quote is ambiguous but I think it's about Potterverse only. If the quote reflects her thoughts on real life, then Rowling must think she and her oldest daughter are at-risk future evil! Of course, the writer is only suggesting the origins of Rowling's Potterverse fathers with no corroboration by JKR. I can't think of much to add; I was just remembering the quote then you brought up the topic, Alla. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Thu Aug 6 06:26:59 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2009 06:26:59 -0000 Subject: Fathers WAS: lupin's motives (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187507 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > > Alla: > > > > Hey, I am snipping your post Sherry just to react to your last two > > sentences. I totally agree with you about JKR not portraying > > fathers too well in her series, but am I dreaming or there was an > > interview where she said that untill certain moment she did not > > realize that exactly and then she could not bring herself to kill > > Arthur? Jen: > In a separate interview on Dateline in 2007, JKR had this to say: > > MV: So as an author, then, there were certain characters you couldn't bear to part with? > > JKR: If there's one character I couldn't bear to part with, it's Arthur Weasley. And I think part of the reason for that is there were very few good fathers in the books. In fact, you could make a very good case for Arthur Weasley being the only good father in the whole series. Geoff: I wonder if she's discounted "off-stage" fathers. I know that James was revealed in OOTP as being less than perfect in relations with other Hogwarts students, but is there any evidence that he wasn't a good father to Harry? OK, Harry lost him when he was a toddler but there seems to be a warmth in his subconscious feelings about his father and the "meetings" Harry has in GOF and DH seem to show that there was a great bond between them. From bobbarber26 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 5 21:16:39 2009 From: bobbarber26 at yahoo.com (robert cox) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 14:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] lupin's motives (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <488923.72903.qm@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187508 Sherry < BIG SNIP> To me, Lupin is another example of bad fathering, another JKR dig at fathers in general. She doesn't pain them too well in her series, except for Mr. Weasley. Bobbarber26: I think that Lupin, like all newly found out fathers, panicked. And all their faults become so multiplied that they forget the great joy and responsibility that they have to both the mother and kid. Also don't forget that he knows that the death eaters want him dead and if the kid was infected with the werewolf gene he would be at fault (he should have thought of that before sleeping with Tonks, and that the werewolf that made him would most likely hunt the kid down too). From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Aug 7 11:03:26 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 11:03:26 -0000 Subject: Fathers WAS: lupin's motives (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187509 > > Geoff: > I wonder if she's discounted "off-stage" fathers. I know that James > was revealed in OOTP as being less than perfect in relations with > other Hogwarts students, but is there any evidence that he wasn't > a good father to Harry? > Potioncat: We've had a couple of "father" threads and James ususally ends up as "absent" father. I'd agree with you, I don't think JKR thinks of James as a bad father, but that in the books, he isn't shown in his fathering role. From randmath23 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 7 13:18:49 2009 From: randmath23 at yahoo.com (randmath23) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 13:18:49 -0000 Subject: Fathers WAS: lupin's motives (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187510 > > > > Geoff: > > I wonder if she's discounted "off-stage" fathers. I know that James > > was revealed in OOTP as being less than perfect in relations with > > other Hogwarts students, but is there any evidence that he wasn't > > a good father to Harry? randmath: As I recall, JKR provided just a few mentions of fathers in the books. Arthur Weasley was a very hands on father figure and Mr. Granger was only mentioned briefly. By observing how the children turned out, the fathers must have done something right. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 8 05:19:40 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2009 05:19:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187511 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > I fully believe that if Snape of these days would have > gotten a second chance to replay that night with Dumbledore > he would have definitely asked Dumbledore to save James > and Harry as well, without any nagging from Dumbledore that is. zanooda: I still think we keep blaming Snape for the wrong thing here. We keep saying he didn't ask DD to save James and Harry together with Lily. Is it true though? Snape came to DD with a warning and a request. However, we don't know what that request was, because Snape simply didn't get to it, as DD interrupted him with questions. How do we know what exactly Snape intended to ask? How do we know he would have said "save Lily, don't mind her husband and son"? I suppose he could have, but how can we be sure if we are not Legilimenses :-)? Note that DD doesn't exactly blame Snape for asking him to save only Lily. How can he, if Snape didn't ask anything at all yet? IMO, DD blames Snape for asking LV to spare only Lily, not James and Harry as well, which is an unfair and unreasonable demand. To ask LV such a thing would have been a suicide (although a "fine gesture", to use Snape's own words :-)), and what good would it have done? They would have been all dead, Snape as well as the Potters. Don't misunderstand me, I know that Snape didn't care about James and Harry, but we can't blame him for not asking DD to protect them, because we can't prove that he didn't intend to ask. I reread this dialogue many times, and I still can't see anything showing that Snape only asked to save Lily. This is just my opinion that I've wanted to express for quite some time :-). From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 8 19:27:35 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2009 19:27:35 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187512 > zanooda: > > I still think we keep blaming Snape for the wrong thing here. We keep saying he didn't ask DD to save James and Harry together with Lily. Is it true though? Snape came to DD with a warning and a request. However, we don't know what that request was, because Snape simply didn't get to it, as DD interrupted him with questions. Alla: So I figured let me go ahead and reread that scene to make sure that it did not transform in my head in something it is not and heck, who knows maybe I am indeed keep blaming Snape for the wrong thing? Nope, reread, and even more convinced that I am blaming dear Snape for exact thing he deserves to be blamed for, namely not asking Dumbledore to keep James and Harry safe, till Dumbledore basically forces him to that is. IMO of course. It is true that Dumbledore interrupts him with questions, but only untill certain point, no? Zanooda: > How do we know what exactly Snape intended to ask? How do we know he would have said "save Lily, don't mind her husband and son"? I suppose he could have, but how can we be sure if we are not Legilimenses :-)? Alla: Eh because he says it? Here is the canon, I am not typing the whole thing here, only part relevant to my argument, you said it yourself you reread it many times and anybody can go and reread the rest of the scene if needed. "You disgust me," said Dumbledore, and Harry had never heard so much contempt in his voice. Snape seemed to shrink a little. "You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?" Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore. "Hide them all, then," he croaked. "Keep her - them - safe. Please." - p.543-544, Brit.ed. Zanooda: > Note that DD doesn't exactly blame Snape for asking him to save only Lily. How can he, if Snape didn't ask anything at all yet? IMO, DD blames Snape for asking LV to spare only Lily, not James and Harry as well, which is an unfair and unreasonable demand. To ask LV such a thing would have been a suicide (although a "fine gesture", to use Snape's own words :-)), and what good would it have done? They would have been all dead, Snape as well as the Potters. > > Don't misunderstand me, I know that Snape didn't care about James and Harry, but we can't blame him for not asking DD to protect them, because we can't prove that he didn't intend to ask. I reread this dialogue many times, and I still can't see anything showing that Snape only asked to save Lily. This is just my opinion that I've wanted to express for quite some time :-). Alla: Two things in the paragraph above make me 100% convinced that Snape intended to ask Dumbledore only about saving Lily. Sure, I can see how you interpret Dumbledore blaming Snape to asking LV to spare onlt Lily. What I do not see is how you can interpret Snape's *response* as anything but him intending to ask Dumbledore as well only for Lily's life. Snape says after Dumbledore expressing his disgust "hide them all, then". It is this *then* that tells me that had Dumbledore not expressed his disgust and was more agreeable with Snape asking for Lily only that Snape would have asked for her life too. Then to me is an afterthought. And second thing what he says is "keep her - them - safe". Again, first out of his mouth is what he truly wanted to ask and as after thought, to get Dumbledore to be more agreeable is "them". JMO, Alla From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Aug 8 23:46:57 2009 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2009 23:46:57 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187513 > > zanooda: > > > > I still think we keep blaming Snape for the wrong thing here. We > keep saying he didn't ask DD to save James and Harry together with > Lily. Is it true though? Snape came to DD with a warning and a > request. However, we don't know what that request was, because > Snape simply didn't get to it, as DD interrupted him with > questions. Alla: > Two things in the paragraph above make me 100% convinced that Snape > intended to ask Dumbledore only about saving Lily. > > Sure, I can see how you interpret Dumbledore blaming Snape to > asking LV to spare onlt Lily. > > What I do not see is how you can interpret Snape's *response* as > anything but him intending to ask Dumbledore as well only for > Lily's life. > > Snape says after Dumbledore expressing his disgust "hide them all, > then". It is this *then* that tells me that had Dumbledore not > expressed his disgust and was more agreeable with Snape asking for > Lily only that Snape would have asked for her life too. Then to me > is an afterthought. > > And second thing what he says is "keep her - them - safe". Again, > first out of his mouth is what he truly wanted to ask and as after > thought, to get Dumbledore to be more agreeable is "them". Jen: I decided to read the sequence again too, not certain about my interpretation. The most telling moment for Snape is this one imo: "You know what I mean! He thinks it means her son, he is going to hunt her down - kill them all- " "If she means so much to you," said Dumbledore, "surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?" "I have - I have asked him -" (Chap. 33, p. 677, US edition) Jen again: *Possibly* Snape agreed to Dumbledore's question without hearing his exact words, that Snape was agreeing that yes indeed, he had asked Voldemort to spare Lily in exchange for Harry. However, when you add that moment to the points Alla mentioned, it's heavily implied that Snape asked Voldemort to save Lily only. That brings up another question though: why did Dumbledore phrase it that way, in *exchange* for Harry?? Snape already said Voldemort intended to hunt down all three of the Potters. There's no 'exchanging' Lily for Harry if all three are meant to die. Snape would need to actually have Harry, or hold the key to killing Harry, if he is able to offer Harry in place of Lily. I can't decide if that's imprecise writing, or the phrasing just sounded good to JKR or....what? From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 9 01:28:52 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 01:28:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187514 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Nope, reread, and even more convinced that I am blaming > dear Snape for exact thing he deserves to be blamed for, > namely not asking Dumbledore to keep James and Harry safe, > till Dumbledore basically forces him to that is. zanooda: Oh, Alla, I never expected you to agree with me :-). Actually, I don't think anyone will :-). That's not why I wrote my post, see. It was just something that was bugging me for a long time and I was tempted to write about it many times, but I never did, because it doesn't change much, you know? I mean, this way or another Snape didn't care what happens to James and Harry, right? But the list is quiet at the moment, so I thought I could finally get it off my chest and forget about it :-). > Alla: > What I do not see is how you can interpret Snape's *response* > as anything but him intending to ask Dumbledore as well only > for Lily's life. zanooda: His response shows that he indeed didn't ask LV (not DD) to spare James and Harry, it also shows that he didn't think of them and didn't care about them, but it doesn't show me that he didn't intend to include them in his request to DD :-). DD says to him "you don't care about the deaths of her husband and child?" - and Snape shrinks because he in fact didn't care :-). But DD's "you don't care" comes as a response to Snape asking *LV* only for Lily's life, not as a response to Snape asking *DD* to protect only Lily. Snape didn't ask DD anything at all at this point of conversation. And it is said only after it is said :-). I don't know what Snape wanted to ask DD. I can easily believe that he *didn't intend to ask* to protect the whole family, but I can't say "he didn't ask", because he didn't have time to ask about anything at all yet :-). > Alla wrote: > It is this *then* that tells me that had Dumbledore not > expressed his disgust and was more agreeable with Snape > asking for Lily only that Snape would have asked for her > life too. zanooda: Still, this is an assumption, not a fact, because Snape's original request was never expressed ... > Alla: > And second thing what he says is "keep her - them - safe". > Again, first out of his mouth is what he truly wanted to > ask and as afterthought, to get Dumbledore to be more agreeable > is "them". zanooda: First out of his mouth is what he *truly wanted*, not what he "truly wanted to ask"... :-). Alla, I'm not trying to convince you (or anybody else). As I said, I just wanted to get this off my chest. It's one of those things that you really want to say for some reason :-). For example, when we discuss Snape and the prophecy, we always say that Snape didn't care about the unknown innocent baby when he retold the prophecy to LV. And I always wanted to say that, IMO, it's practically impossible to guess from the overheard part of the prophecy that it was about an unborn baby. I never said it though (until now :-)), because it doesn't make a lot of difference if it's about a baby or someone else. Just nitpicking, LOL. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 9 01:44:14 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 01:44:14 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187515 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > That brings up another question though: why did Dumbledore > phrase it that way, in *exchange* for Harry?? Snape already > said Voldemort intended to hunt down all three of the Potters. > There's no 'exchanging' Lily for Harry if all three are meant > to die. zanooda: Maybe "in exchange for the son" means something like "in exchange for the information about the son" here? Meaning that LV agreed to spare Lily as a thanks for Snape's information about the prophecy baby? If it wasn't Snape who brought this information to LV, he wouldn't dare to ask for a favor, I guess ... :-). From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 9 02:00:37 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 02:00:37 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187516 zanooda: DD says to him "you don't care about the deaths of her husband and child?" - and Snape shrinks because he in fact didn't care :-). But DD's "you don't care" comes as a response to Snape asking *LV* only for Lily's life, not as a response to Snape asking *DD* to protect only Lily. Alla: Correct, and I am not disputing that. What I am saying is that **regardless* of what DD's "you don't care" comes as a response to, Snape response *to him* shows to me that he did not intend to ask Dumbledore about James and Harry. I do think also that it is quite possible that DD already legilimenced Snape (that is a speculation of course) and his reaction is to both, what Snape asked of Voldemort and what he intends to ask of Snape. But of course Snape did not ask him anything *yet*. Zanooda: Snape didn't ask DD anything at all at this point of conversation. And it is said only after it is said :-). I don't know what Snape wanted to ask DD. I can easily believe that he *didn't intend to ask* to protect the whole family, but I can't say "he didn't ask", because he didn't have time to ask about anything at all yet :-). Alla: Yes, I know. I also know that he said "protect her ? them", and that to me shows Snape's intentions. Alla wrote: > It is this *then* that tells me that had Dumbledore not > expressed his disgust and was more agreeable with Snape > asking for Lily only that Snape would have asked for her > life too. zanooda: Still, this is an assumption, not a fact, because Snape's original request was never expressed ... Alla: As far as I am concerned it is a very heavily implied inference. What do you mean it is not a fact? Snape does says *then* in the sentence, I did not imagine it, right? . To me it does not matter if he did not have a chance to say his request right away, because he *is* saying it few minutes later in conversation and he says it with qualifier *then*. Alla: > And second thing what he says is "keep her - them - safe". > Again, first out of his mouth is what he truly wanted to > ask and as afterthought, to get Dumbledore to be more agreeable > is "them". zanooda: First out of his mouth is what he *truly wanted*, not what he "truly wanted to ask"... :-). Alla, I'm not trying to convince you (or anybody else). As I said, I just wanted to get this off my chest. It's one of those things that you really want to say for some reason :-). Alla: Yes, I figured that you are not trying to convince me, let me repeat though ? neither am I. I am trying to understand your interpretation, that's all. I think that when we write anything here, we always run a risk of somebody challenging us, whether it is our intent or not. I do not understand your interpretation at all, I do not need and do not want to agree with it, but I do want to understand. What he truly wanted to me equals what he truly wanted to ask, how could it be otherwise? JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 9 02:14:14 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 02:14:14 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187517 Alla: and his reaction is to both, what Snape asked of Voldemort and what he intends to ask of Snape. But of course Snape did not ask him anything *yet*. Alla: Should be of course "what Snape asked of Voldemort and what Snape intends to ask of him". Oy. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Aug 9 03:11:32 2009 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 03:11:32 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187518 > zanooda: > Oh, Alla, I never expected you to agree with me :-). Actually, I > don't think anyone will :-). That's not why I wrote my post, see. > It was just something that was bugging me for a long time and I > was tempted to write about it many times, but I never did, because > it doesn't change much, you know? I mean, this way or another Snape > didn't care what happens to James and Harry, right? But the list is > quiet at the moment, so I thought I could finally get it off my > chest and forget about it :-). Jen: I understand what you're saying zanooda. Snape never actually makes his request in his own words, something I never noticed until you brought it up. He's distraught, responding to Dumbledore's assumptions. DD implies Snape only wants to save Lily, and Snape appears to agree with DD's wording, but he's also obsessing about Lily's safety and barely paying attention to Dumbledore imo. To paraphrase, Snape is saying, 'I want Lily to live' rather than 'I want James and Harry to die.' That's the perfect moment for Snape to start ranting about James, denouncing him for not be able to protect Lily, ranting about how James and his good-for-nothing son deserve to die. He doesn't do that though. His only focus is Lily and James/Harry are an afterthought, an unusual moment given the Snape/James dynamic up to that point. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > That brings up another question though: why did Dumbledore > phrase it that way, in *exchange* for Harry?? Snape already > said Voldemort intended to hunt down all three of the Potters. > There's no 'exchanging' Lily for Harry if all three are meant > to die. zanooda: Maybe "in exchange for the son" means something like "in exchange for the information about the son" here? Meaning that LV agreed to spare Lily as a thanks for Snape's information about the prophecy baby? If it wasn't Snape who brought this information to LV, he wouldn't dare to ask for a favor, I guess ... :-). Jen: That sounds plausible. It rubs me the wrong way that LV would grant Snape a favor after getting the information he needed from Snape; it doesn't fit Voldemort's psychological profile - too altruistic. The proof is in the story though, when he asks Lily to step aside. I suppose Snape going to Dumbledore proves his master's altruistic moments are unreliable at best. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 9 03:35:02 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 03:35:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187519 > Jen: I understand what you're saying zanooda. Alla: Good maybe you can explain it for me my dear then :-) or more like maybe you can explain to me where is the moment that I am missing. Jen: Snape never actually makes his request in his own words, something I never noticed until you brought it up. Alla: But he does in his responce to DD, why are you saying that he does not? So confused I am. Jen: He's distraught, responding to Dumbledore's assumptions. DD implies Snape only wants to save Lily, and Snape appears to agree with DD's wording, but he's also obsessing about Lily's safety and barely paying attention to Dumbledore imo. To paraphrase, Snape is saying, 'I want Lily to live' rather than 'I want James and Harry to die.' Alla: ABSOLUTELY. I completely agree with you that Snape is saying here "I want Lily to live". I never said that Snape is saying here that I want James and Harry to die. I mean, do not get me wrong, I heavily speculated in the past that Snape wants Lily for himself, etc, etc, etc and would not mind at all to get rid of James and Harry, but I at least do not remember saying that this is what canon says. And it certainly was not my intention to say it. What I had been saying all along is that this scene says that Snape tells Dumbledore "I want Lily to live" and what he **does not say** is that I want James and Harry to live. Are we in agreement on that? I mean in agreement that Snape does not say that. Because it seems to me that Zanooda is saying that we cannot be sure that Snape would not have asked for **James and Harry to live** had he not been initially interrupted by Dumbledore. Again, I am not disputing that Snape is not saying in that scene that he wants for them to die, to me that is **inference** from him **not asking Dumbledore to save them**. But him not asking, to me is very clear in the scene for the reasons I explained upthread. Am I making sense Jen? I thought Zanooda is disputing a fact that Snape is not asking Dumbledore to save them, am I confused? Jen: > That's the perfect moment for Snape to start ranting about James, denouncing him for not be able to protect Lily, ranting about how James and his good-for-nothing son deserve to die. He doesn't do that though. His only focus is Lily and James/Harry are an afterthought, an unusual moment given the Snape/James dynamic up to that point. > Alla: His focus is Lily in the scene, I again agree with that. JMO, Alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 9 03:52:54 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 03:52:54 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187520 zanooda wrote: > Maybe "in exchange for the son" means something like "in exchange for the information about the son" here? Meaning that LV agreed to spare Lily as a thanks for Snape's information about the prophecy baby? If it wasn't Snape who brought this information to LV, he wouldn't dare to ask for a favor, I guess ... :-). > Jen replied: That sounds plausible. It rubs me the wrong way that LV would grant Snape a favor after getting the information he needed from Snape; it doesn't fit Voldemort's psychological profile - too altruistic. The proof is in the story though, when he asks Lily to step aside. I suppose Snape going to Dumbledore proves his master's altruistic moments are unreliable at best. Carol responds to both: I agree that it's odd wording given that Snape doesn't have Harry, so it must mean "information about the son." I can't think of anything else that makes sense. Either JKR isn't being careful with her wording (which happens on occasion), or Snape is too distraught to hear what DD is saying. But I wouldn't call LV's agreeing to spare Lily "altruistic." Generous, maybe, for Voldemort--he's "giving" Lily to Snape as a reward to the young DE for providing him with what appears to be extremely valuable information, and LV and the DEs (even quasi-DE Snape) are always mouthing that phrase about rewarding some loyal DE "above all others." He's probably relieved that Snape asks so little. Why not let the "Mud-Blood" girl live if Snape wants her? It's her son that he wants dead. Anyway, I agree with Alla that Snape is thinking only of Lily and that Harry and James are afterthoughts, but I don't think that's terrible. At least he's concerned about *somebody,* and he has to start somewhere. He can't go from loyal DE to "lately, only those whom I could not save" in an instant. It starts with Lily, then moves to "her--them," then becomes a kind of mission to protect Harry despite hating him because he looks like James (whom he hated but didn't want to die, just as he didn't want Harry to die in SS/PS), and eventually, to saving people he doesn't know or dislikes, if he can, when he can. I think it's quite human (not to be confused with "humane") of him to think only of the girl he loves. He reminds me of a mother whose daughter is trapped in a fire at a school. The mother is going to beg the firemen to save her child, and if the fireman is callous enough to remind her that other children are also in danger, she'll beg him to save "her--them" just as Snape does. Of course, she doesn't want the other children to die, but her main concern, her desperate fear, is for her own child. And that's the way it was for Snape, IMO. He feared desperately for Lily's life and was only dimly aware that Harry and James were also in danger. (And, of course, he couldn't and wouldn't have asked LV to save *them* even if it had occurred to him. The one person he cares about is also the one person that LV, if he's in a generous mood, might actually agree to spare. And LV *would* be in a generous mood (with regard to Snape, at least) after Wormtail betrayed their secret. Let the silly girl live! All that mattered was killing the Prophecy Boy--and his blood traitor Order member father into the bargain. (Sure, Lily was an Order member, too, but he doesn't seem to have had any kind of respect for her abilities.) Carol, who thinks that Snape keeps his focus on one thing here, Lily, just as in the Shrieking Shack with LV he's focused on finding "the boy," and isn't thinking clearly about anything else From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 9 06:10:45 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 06:10:45 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187521 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > I do think also that it is quite possible that DD already > legilimenced Snape (that is a speculation of course) and his > reaction is to both, what Snape asked of Voldemort and what he > intends to ask of Snape. zanooda: Oh, that's what I thought too, I even wrote about it in my first post, but erased it, and now you beat me to it :-). I suspected it because DD's scorn seems too sudden and intense. > Alla: > I also know that he said "protect her ? them", and that to me > shows Snape's intentions. zanooda: All right, I agree that we can blame him for his intentions, but not for his actions, because the actions didn't happen yet :-). Besides, intentions can change. Maybe, given the chance, Snape would start voicing his request and would understand at the last moment that it was just stupid to ask DD to save Lily and leave her family to Voldemort. We just don't know what would have happened, because it never happened :-). From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 9 06:29:34 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 06:29:34 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187522 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > It rubs me the wrong way that LV would grant Snape a favor > after getting the information he needed from Snape; it doesn't > fit Voldemort's psychological profile - too altruistic. zanooda: I suppose Snape told LV he wanted his school enemy's wife for himself, to Imperio her and make her his love slave. LV would probably like the idea of something as perverse as that... . Or maybe back then he wasn't as crazy as he was in the last books and he wanted to maintain the devotion of his followers by giving them rewards and small favors... From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 9 16:57:39 2009 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 9 Aug 2009 16:57:39 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/9/2009, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1249837059.494.92783.m2@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187523 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 9, 2009 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2009 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 9 19:36:26 2009 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 19:36:26 -0000 Subject: Veelas / Weasels / Death Eater Wannabees Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187524 Alla wrote in : << I know we only see female veelas [in canon], but it does not necessarily mean that only females exist? >> In real life, where 'veela' is more often spelled 'vila' or 'vili' and is part of Slavic folklore, being a pretty female is part of the definition of veela. While the real folklore veelas behave sort of like nature spirits like dryads and nereids, they are supposed to come into being as the spirits of human girls who died before getting married and having children. Probably Rowling's Potterverse veelas do not come into being that way. I once suggested that they grew on trees. It's also perfectly possible that they reproduce by parthenogenesis - there are numerous species of anole lizards that do so, in which all members of a parthenogenetic species are genetically identical. *waves at Montavilla47 * James wrote in : << Male Veelas are directly implied by the text even though they are never mentioned. We are given a string distinction between full Vellas and part Vellas (thru interbreeding with humans). The existence of that distinction requires that there is some way for full Vellas to breed, which requires males of the species. >> Not necessarily: maybe full veelas grew on trees or were birthed by veela mothers who conceived by parthenogenesis while half veelas were conceived by veela mothers as a result of sex with non-veela males. Some [human male] listies previously suggested that all veelas are female and reproduce by sex with human males, in which case a veela's daughter would be full veela and her son would be a half-veela, and her son's child would be a quarter-Veela like Fleur. When we saw Fleur's parents in DH, did either of them seem half-Veela? I suspect Lockhart was half-veela. If Potterverse veelas reproduce sexually like normal vertebrates, it is possible that the veelas are the females and some other magical beings are the males of the same species. It appears there are two sexes of giants, two sexes of merfolk, and two sexes of goblins, but I believe JKR has stated that there are only male centaurs. Maybe centaurs are the male veelas. I enjoy the irony of suggesting that trolls are the male veelas, but then who would be the male hags? sydney_freud wrote in : << I don't remember where I read/heard this but J.K. Rowling was once defending the reputation of a weasel, which inspired the Weasley family name in the books. >> I don't know about the European symbolism that you looked up. In America, 'weasel' refers to dishonesty and cheating, such as 'weaseling out of' some obligation, or calling someone 'you weasel'. I've always assumed this is because mustelids (the weasel family, weasels ermines ferrets polecats stoats) have exceptionally flexible backbones so they can twist very twisty and thus escape from traps. Montavilla47 wrote in : << Where does Snape ever show hatred for muggles? Except for that moment of heightened emotion, where he calls Lily a mudblood, the only thing he does is condone his friends teasing a muggle-born girl.>> Nitpick: according to Lily (page 673, DH, US edition), Mulciber did something worse than just teasing to Mary Macdonald. IIRC Karkaroff's testimony mentioned Mulciber being an Imperius specialist, so I'm inclined to think he tried to Imperio her to do something disgusting and humiliating, such as eat dung. Maybe it wasn't Imperius - maybe he tried to give her a deadly poison so that at the very last second he could give her the antidote and demand that she be grateful to him for saving her life, but I think that is less likely because I think the Junior Death Eater gang would find more humiliating = more fun. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Aug 9 20:51:33 2009 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 20:51:33 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187525 > Jen: > Snape never actually makes his request in his own words, something > I never noticed until you brought it up. > > Alla: > > But he does in his responce to DD, why are you saying that he does > not? So confused I am. Jen: Now I'm getting confused. I believe all zanooda is saying is that Snape never makes his initial request in his own words. The conversation proceeds based on Dumbledore's interpretation of what Snape intends to request. That's the part I agree with, that Snape never makes his initial request. Snape's later words indicate he *agrees* with Dumbledore's intepretation. > Alla: > What I had been saying all along is that this scene says that Snape > tells Dumbledore "I want Lily to live" and what he **does not say** > is that I want James and Harry to live. Are we in agreement on > that? I mean in agreement that Snape does not say that. Jen: I agree Snape doesn't say he wants Harry and James to live. Saving them is part of the conversation because Dumbledore brings it up. Alla: > Because it seems to me that Zanooda is saying that we cannot be > sure that Snape would not have asked for **James and Harry to > live** had he not been initially interrupted by Dumbledore. > Am I making sense Jen? I thought Zanooda is disputing a fact that > Snape is not asking Dumbledore to save them, am I confused? Jen: I think zanooda was saying that hypothetically speaking, Snape could have asked Dumbledore to save all three Potters had he been given the chance to voice his request - we'll never know. I understood it as a technical point about the writing. I don't believe Snape was going to ask DD to save all three Potters. I don't think zanooda was arguing for that interpretation either (correct me if I'm wrong, zanooda!). The point is we'll never know how Snape was planning to word his request to DD. Too bad. Carol: > But I wouldn't call LV's agreeing to spare Lily "altruistic." > Generous, maybe, for Voldemort--he's "giving" Lily to Snape as a > reward to the young DE for providing him with what appears to be > extremely valuable information, and LV and the DEs (even quasi-DE > Snape) are always mouthing that phrase about rewarding some loyal > DE "above all others." He's probably relieved that Snape asks so > little. Why not let the "Mud-Blood" girl live if Snape wants her? > It's her son that he wants dead. Jen: Maybe 'altruistic' isn't the best word. I didn't elaborate but the main point is Voldemort tends to give his followers rewards that serve him in some way, i.e., Draco's task, letting Lucius & Bella guard his Horcruxes or giving Peter the silver hand. There's no benefit to saving Lily. LV wouldn't agree to save her to strengthen Snape's loyalty because if LV doubted Snape's loyalty, he wouldn't give him anything at all or he would give him the equivalent of a silver hand. Another minor point about Voldemort: I doubt he felt relief Snape asked for so little. That isn't part of his psychological make-up. If a follower dares ask for something, he or she should be grateful to be alive after the asking. zanooda: > I suppose Snape told LV he wanted his school enemy's wife for > himself, to Imperio her and make her his love slave. LV would > probably like the idea of something as perverse as that... . Or > maybe back then he wasn't as crazy as he was in the last books and > he wanted to maintain the devotion of his followers by giving them > rewards and small favors... Jen: LOL, to the first idea. Possibly he was less crazy before leaving his body and getting rebirthed. The bottom line is the story wouldn't work if Snape didn't ask, Voldemort didn't agree, and Lily didn't have the choice to step aside. Voldemort's characterization took a back seat to the plot in this instance imo. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 9 21:16:04 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 21:16:04 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187526 > Alla: > I also know that he said "protect her ? them", and that to me > shows Snape's intentions. zanooda: All right, I agree that we can blame him for his intentions, but not for his actions, because the actions didn't happen yet :-). Besides, intentions can change. Maybe, given the chance, Snape would start voicing his request and would understand at the last moment that it was just stupid to ask DD to save Lily and leave her family to Voldemort. We just don't know what would have happened, because it never happened :-). Alla: Let's backtrack for a second, because I am starting to wonder whether I am reading different dialogue than you do indeed. Why are you saying that Snape never expressed his intentions? Do you think that he is not clear enough in his response to Dumbledore? I just want to understand and truly can't. Maybe I should rephrase it this way - what does Snape's response when he says hide them, then means to you? Specifically what do you think the role of *then* is in this sentence? And same question about "hiding her, them". What is the meaning of Snape's words in your opinion? I totally get that Snape does not get a chance to say what he wants right away because Dumbledore interrupts him. What I do **not** get is why does it matter at all that Snape does not get to say it right away, if he IMO expresses himself very clear in response to Dumbledore's disgust. Thanks. Jen: Now I'm getting confused. I believe all zanooda is saying is that Snape never makes his initial request in his own words. The conversation proceeds based on Dumbledore's interpretation of what Snape intends to request. That's the part I agree with, that Snape never makes his initial request. Snape's later words indicate he *agrees* with Dumbledore's intepretation. Alla: Yes, yes and yes, I totally agree with you! What I am not sure that Zanooda is agreeing with us is your last sentence, that Snape's later words indicate that he *agrees* with Dumbledore's interpretation. If Zanooda is agreeing with that, then sure I have nothing to argue about, that would just mean that I got myself needlessly confused. LOL. Of course Snape never makes the *initial* request in his own words, I just think that what he says afterwards is quite clear. JMO, Alla From loptwyn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 9 07:23:52 2009 From: loptwyn at yahoo.com (Alice) Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 07:23:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187527 Carol: > Anyway, I agree with Alla that Snape is thinking only of Lily and that Harry and James are afterthoughts, but I don't think that's terrible. At least he's concerned about *somebody,* and he has to start somewhere. He can't go from loyal DE to "lately, only those whom I could not save" in an instant. It starts with Lily, then moves to "her--them," then becomes a kind of mission to protect Harry despite hating him because he looks like James (whom he hated but didn't want to die, just as he didn't want Harry to die in SS/PS), and eventually, to >saving people he doesn't know or dislikes, if he can, when he can. MadAlice: >:> Also, realistically, it is probably not likely that Voldemort will spare Harry, since the prophecy names him as being the Dark Lord's downfall--maybe Snape is just being realistic and asking for what he things he can get (and he obviously is not very secure about that, since he subsequently goes to Dumbledore) From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 10 03:17:52 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 03:17:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > I believe all zanooda is saying is that Snape never makes > his initial request in his own words. zanooda: Yes :-). > Jen wrote: > Snape's later words indicate he *agrees* with Dumbledore's > intepretation. zanooda: Yes again, although each person can be certain of this to a different degree. For example, for you and Alla it is 100% yes, and for me it is 95% yes. I agree that Snape most probably wanted to ask only to protect Lily, but I leave a little space for a doubt. I think maybe he just didn't have any statement prepared beforehand, you know? Maybe he was too distraught to think through what he was going to say when he rushed to meet DD. He didn't care at all about James and Harry (that's why he shrinks and that's why he says "then"), but to me it doesn't mean he wouldn't say "hide them" when it actually came to saying something. I'm not saying it's what would have happened, it's all theoretical - just my 5% worth of doubt :-). You know, that "reasonable doubt", LOL. But the point is, you are right in saying that my initial post was not about Snape's intentions, whatever they were, it was simply about the fact that we usually word our description of this scene in a wrong way, IMO, saying that "Snape didn't ask DD to save Harry and James". > Jen: > I think zanooda was saying that hypothetically speaking, > Snape could have asked Dumbledore to save all three Potters > had he been given the chance to voice his request - we'll never > know. I understood it as a technical point about the writing. zanooda: Exactly, this is all from a technical point of view :-). We can say "Snape didn't care if James and Harry lived", or even "Snape didn't intend to ask DD to protect James and Harry", but we can't say (and we always do :-)) "Snape didn't ask DD to protect James and Harry", because technically speaking it's not true. If Snape came to DD and said: "LV thinks that Lily's son is the prophecy baby, he wants to kill them all, so please hide Lily, save her", - then it would be true. It's all about the wording, see :-)? > Jen: > The point is we'll never know how Snape was planning to word > his request to DD. zanooda: Right, or maybe he wasn't planning at all... :-). > Jen: > Possibly he was less crazy before leaving his body and > getting rebirthed. zanooda: Yeah, maybe each new Horcrux made him less human not only physically? At the time of GH he had five Horcruxes, but he lost one more soul bit to baby Harry, and he created Nagini Horcrux when he was BabyMort. So when he was reborn, his soul was more mutilated than before. I mean, the way he treats his followers in DH is so unwise, even irrational... From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 10 05:25:40 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 05:25:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Do you think that he is not clear enough in his response > to Dumbledore? zanooda: He is clear enough about his feelings (cares about Lily, doesn't care about Harry and James), but not about what he would have asked DD. To be clear enough about that, he should have said: "Well, I kind of didn't intend to ask you to protect her husband and child as well, but OK, hide them too" :-). > Maybe I should rephrase it this way - what does Snape's > response when he says hide them, then means to you? It means to me the same thing that it means to you, that he didn't care about Harry and James and that he probably wouldn't have asked to protect them. But it doesn't matter what we think it means, because these words can be subject to interpretation. For instance, they can mean "it's true, I don't care what happens to them, but I can see from you reaction that I should and that you want me to". The words "hide them, then" are not a direct statement of Snape's previous intentions, they are not a proof. Any lawyer would have gotten him off on a technicality, LOL. > And same question about "hiding her, them". This one is even easier - he thinks about her and only her, so he says "her", but then remembers, you know, *them*, so he adds "them" :-). Maybe that's exactly how he would have expressed his wish: "Protect her...them". Once again, I'm not saying it would have been like this, just that we cannot be sure unless it actually happened, and it didn't. > Alla: > What I am not sure that Zanooda is agreeing with us is your > last sentence, that Snape's later words indicate that he > *agrees* with Dumbledore's interpretation. I actually agree (with very small reservations), but it doesn't mean anything. We still can't accuse Snape of not asking to save Harry and James. What didn't happen, didn't happen. We can safely accuse him of not caring at all about Harry and James though. From kersberg at chello.nl Mon Aug 10 11:24:28 2009 From: kersberg at chello.nl (kamion53) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 11:24:28 -0000 Subject: Canon Veelas WAS Re: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187530 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > Magpie: > > It doesn't necessarily mean they have personalities like humans do. People often refer to machines as being tempermental. I assumed Ollivander just means that he doesn't find Veela hair to be reliable enough as a wand core. (I also get a subtle, unfortunate sexist connotation.) > > Alla: > > Hm, why? I certainly do not remember, but is it specified in the canon definition of veela that only female veelas exist? I strongly suspect that I got it from bad fanfiction that male veelas exist too, but I am not sure one way or another. > > I mean I know we only see female veelas, but it does not necessarily mean that only females exist? > > Thanks. > kamion: just wondering when the female spirit is called a Veela ( first declension noun in Latin) should the male version of it then be called Veelus or Veelo? From susanfullin at yahoo.com Sun Aug 9 17:30:27 2009 From: susanfullin at yahoo.com (Susan Curcio) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 10:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mothers (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: <622970.45296.qm@web111801.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <622970.45296.qm@web111801.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <680808.69525.qm@web45802.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187531 potioncat: > But they do make an interesting comparison. It is two different types > of mothers for two different characters. It has just crossed my mind > that Merope and Lily may be two sides of JKR. quidditchmaster: > Right, the ideal mom. And also, maybe JKR did feel depressed enough > to consider if her child wouldn't be better off without her. The > existence of those two characters can be how she felt the time she > was depressed: in one hand she was depressed, sad and lonely and all > that and on the other hand she knew she had to (and wanted to) be > strong for her daughter's sake. Let's just say Lily lived for some reason (LV fulfilled Snape's request?). With James dead, and probably Harry, how depressed would she be, and how would it be manifested??? Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 10 13:40:10 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 13:40:10 -0000 Subject: Mothers (was Depression (was Re: DH reread CH 31 In-Reply-To: <680808.69525.qm@web45802.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187532 Susan Curcio wrote: > Let's just say Lily lived for some reason (LV fulfilled Snape's request?). With James dead, and probably Harry, how depressed would she be, and how would it be manifested??? Potioncat: I don't think she would be depressed at all. I think she would grieve, and take action as an Order member. I'm not sure how the story would continue, because Harry is the one with the power--so if LV did kill him---what's next? Does some other one with power come along later? If he didn't kill Harry--why and what would have happened to LV? At any rate, I don't see Snape continuing as a loyal DE, nor do I see any appreciation toward Snape from Lily if her family is dead. Whether they could work together for LV's destruction is another matter. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 10 15:46:29 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 15:46:29 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187533 Carol earlier: > > But I wouldn't call LV's agreeing to spare Lily "altruistic." Generous, maybe, for Voldemort--he's "giving" Lily to Snape as a reward to the young DE for providing him with what appears to be extremely valuable information, and LV and the DEs (even quasi-DE Snape) are always mouthing that phrase about rewarding some loyal DE "above all others." He's probably relieved that Snape asks so little. Why not let the "Mud-Blood" girl live if Snape wants her? It's her son that he wants dead. > Jen responded: > Another minor point about Voldemort: I doubt he felt relief Snape asked for so little. That isn't part of his psychological make-up. If a follower dares ask for something, he or she should be grateful to be alive after the asking. Carol again: That idea that he would reward a particular DE or DEs above all others, repeated by Snape and Narcissa in "Spinner's End" and Barty Jr. in GoF, appears to come from Voldemort himself. He says it in the graveyard, a scene at which none of those three is present, which suggests that he's said it before. It seems to be almost a catchphrase, thoroughly familiar to all of them. (IIRC, Bella also says it at her sentencing, indicating that it goes back to VW1.) If LV didn't reward his supporters on occasion (and I'm not talking about double-edged swords like the silver hand), that idea would have died out. (He certainly seems to reward them with positions of leadership and rank (Snape earns the symbolic "privilege" of sitting at his right hand, which I suspect Lucius Malfoy had before the MoM fiasco. It certainly appears that Snape was allowed to choose his own reward after "murdering" Dumbledore--becoming headmaster of Hogwarts. So I suspect--and admittedly I'm only guessing--that he was asked, perhaps belatedly, to name his own reward for revealing the Prophecy. Maybe he deferred for a time, but came back later and asked for Lily (ostensibly as a prize; really, to save her life) when he found that LV interpreted the Prophecy to mean that Harry Potter was "the one with the power." It makes more sense to me that Snape would have asked it as a reward than as a favor. Or perhaps, having delivered the Prophecy brought him into the "inner circle" where he was in a position to belatedly request the favor/reward at some point when LV was in what passed for a generous mood. Obviously, Snape didn't trust him to keep his word or he wouldn't have gone to Dumbledore, but he must have known that he could make the request in the first place without being killed for doing so. It makes more sense, however, that LV would *offer* him a reward. Why else would he have attempted three times to keep his promise, giving Lily three chances to "step aside"? As I said, it was no skin off his nose, and it would have made Snape happy. (It would, in fact, have enabled LV to kill Harry with no cost to himself because there would have been no self-sacrifice to bring about the ancient love magic, keeping LV in power and keeping Snape as a loyal DE, but, of course, neither of them had any way of knowing that.) Carol, not sure that JKR actually thought out those details From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 10 15:48:39 2009 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 15:48:39 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187534 > zanooda: > I actually agree (with very small reservations), but it doesn't mean anything. We still can't accuse Snape of not asking to save Harry and James. What didn't happen, didn't happen. We can safely accuse him of not caring at all about Harry and James though. > Montavilla47: I agree with your post entirely, including the tiny bit of reservation. And, reading this last bit reminded me of something. We keep focusing on Snape not asking Dumbledore to protect James and Harry as if that's remarkable. It's really not. How many people would seek out the general of an opposing army to save someone they disliked or felt indifferent about? What is remarkable about Snape's actions is that he for anybody at all to be spared. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 10 16:03:58 2009 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 16:03:58 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187535 Jen responded: > > Another minor point about Voldemort: I doubt he felt relief Snape > > asked for so little. That isn't part of his psychological make- > > up. If a follower dares ask for something, he or she should be > > grateful to be alive after the asking. Carol again: > That idea that he would reward a particular DE or DEs above all > others, repeated by Snape and Narcissa in "Spinner's End" and Barty > Jr. in GoF, appears to come from Voldemort himself. > It certainly appears that Snape was allowed to choose his own > reward after "murdering" Dumbledore--becoming headmaster of > Hogwarts. SSSusan: I'm with Jen on this one, re: doubting Voldy's psychological makeup would support his feeling relief about what a follower asked for. There may have been moments of relief in his life as Lord Voldemort, but I suspect they'd have to do with regaining physical form, escaping encounters with DD, or etc., not with anything having to do with his followers, whom I suspect he felt he had *absolute* control over. Yes, he sometimes rewarded, but I think everyone knew it was all on *his* terms only, not something any of the DEs might have truly expected or been stunned not to have received if denied him/her. Quick question. What canon do we have that Snape *requested* becoming Hogwarts headmaster? I must be missing something. Carol: > So I suspect--and admittedly I'm only guessing--that he was asked, > perhaps belatedly, to name his own reward for revealing the > Prophecy. Maybe he deferred for a time, but came back later and > asked for Lily (ostensibly as a prize; really, to save her life) > when he found that LV interpreted the Prophecy to mean that Harry > Potter was "the one with the power." It makes more sense to me that > Snape would have asked it as a reward than as a favor. Or perhaps, > having delivered the Prophecy brought him into the "inner circle" > where he was in a position to belatedly request the favor/reward at > some point when LV was in what passed for a generous mood. SSSusan: While what you suggest is certainly one possibility, I still have no trouble imagining just the asking of a favor. We saw a *very* distraught Snape appealing to DD, and I can also easily imagine him requesting a flat-out favor of Voldy -- in desperation, rather than awaiting a time when Voldy happened to be in a relatively good mood and Snape thought he'd try cashing in on a stockpiled reward offer. Carol: > Obviously, Snape didn't trust him to keep his word or he wouldn't > have gone to Dumbledore, but he must have known that he could make > the request in the first place without being killed for doing so. SSSusan: I'm not totally sure of this. Perhaps he knew no such thing. Perhaps he just felt he simply *had* to try, regardless of what consequence might come. Siriusly Snapey Susan From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 10 16:22:35 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 16:22:35 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187536 Susan Curcio wrote: > > > Let's just say Lily lived for some reason (LV fulfilled Snape's request?). With James dead, and probably Harry, how depressed would she be, and how would it be manifested??? > Potioncat replied: > I don't think she would be depressed at all. I think she would grieve, and take action as an Order member. > > I'm not sure how the story would continue, because Harry is the one with the power--so if LV did kill him---what's next? Does some other one with power come along later? If he didn't kill Harry--why and what would have happened to LV? > > At any rate, I don't see Snape continuing as a loyal DE, nor do I see any appreciation toward Snape from Lily if her family is dead. Whether they could work together for LV's destruction is another matter. > Carol responds: I can't imagine Lily stepping aside at all, but if LV had simply Stunned her to honor Snape's request and his own magic, the Love magic would not have kicked in, Harry would have died, and LV would have been where he wanted to be--invincible (until and unless another Prophecy Boy came along). I think he'd have killed Neville, too, for safekeeping, and then gone about his quest for power, probably starting with the murder of Dumbledore. Lily, I think, would have despaired at first, waking to find her son and husband dead, but would have been fired by revenge and fought valiantly in the Order. But unless LV or another DE killed her (with LV considering his promise to spare the Prophecy Boy's mother as no longer binding), I see no reason why Snape would not have remained a loyal DE. He'd have received his reward (or his request would have been honored). All he wanted at that point was for Lily to live. Unless, of course, simply going to Dumbledore changed his mind. I'm sort of changing my position in mid-post here--*if* he had fully trusted LV to keep his word and *if* LV had kept it, I'm pretty sure that Snape would have remained a loyal DE. But going to DD indicates that he *didn't* trust him. Once he'd gone to DD and promised to do "anything" and had begun spying for DD "at great personal risk," having actually asked him to protect not only Lily but "them" (wanting DD's approval? seeing his error?), he probably would not have gone back to LV. How could he loyally serve the Wizard who had considered killing Lily? That must have been a wake-up call for young Snape. Certainly, DD would not have hired him to teach Potions (in lieu of DADA) if he didn't *already* believe that Snape had reformed (though maybe he initially meant what he said about DADA tempting him back into his old ways; I've always thought that was a cover story for the DADA curse or an excuse for Snape to give to LV and not DD's real reason. I'm rambling; sorry! Anyway, PC, is that more or less what you had in mind when you said that Snape would not have gone back to LV? Do you think he would have continued to spy on LV (more or less as he did post-GoF) even with no Prophecy Boy and no hope of defeating LV (assuming that the Prophecy was true)? I think, if that's the case, that both he and Lily would have been killed early on and DD would have fought a losing battle, perhaps dying from the ring Horcrux because Snape was already dead. Alternatively, DD could have confided in them instead of Harry and they could have found and destroyed the Horcruxes together, minus all the advantages and disadvantages of Harry's scar connection. But that didn't happen and would have been altogether a different book. Carol, who thinks that the Prophecy is "real" and that without Harry, all other efforts to defeat LV would have been futile From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 10 16:36:08 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 16:36:08 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187537 > SSSusan: > I'm with Jen on this one, re: doubting Voldy's psychological makeup would support his feeling relief about what a follower asked for. There may have been moments of relief in his life as Lord Voldemort, but I suspect they'd have to do with regaining physical form, escaping encounters with DD, or etc., not with anything having to do with his followers, whom I suspect he felt he had *absolute* control over. Yes, he sometimes rewarded, but I think everyone knew it was all on *his* terms only, not something any of the DEs might have truly expected or been stunned not to have received if denied him/her. > > Quick question. What canon do we have that Snape *requested* becoming Hogwarts headmaster? I must be missing something. > Carol responds: Well, "relieved" is probably the wrong word, but, still, I don't think that Voldie had piles of gold strewn about and he didn't want any DE in a position to rival him, so I'll just say that I think he'd be more *inclined* to grant a request for that sort of (belated) reward (and it makes more sense to me that it would be a reward than a favor) than a request for gold or for more authority over the other DEs. As for canon that Snape requested to become Hogwarts master, all we have is his promise to DD to protect the Hogwarts students after DD is dead. The best way to do that, in fact, the only way to do that, would be to become Hogwarts headmaster. It would just be too convenient if LV had rewarded him with that position without his having requested it first, perhaps on his own, perhaps at Portrait!DD's suggestion. They were definitely in communication (Snape in the headmaster's office talking to Portrait!DD) before the Seven Potters incident, which is also before Snape was officially appointed headmaster. Of course, it's also a case of DD's desires overlapping with LV's (LV would want the "loyal" Snape in a position of power and may have thought that it was logical to keep him at Hogwarts rather than in the Ministry), but it makes sense to me that he consulted Snape on the matter. ("You have shown me great loyalty by killing the old Muggle lover, Albus Dumbledore. I wish to honor you above all others. Name your reward." "My lord, I wish--I think it is fitting--if I replace Albus Dumbledore as headmaster.") Carol, just putting two and two together and assuming that Snape's appointment as headmaster is no coincidence From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 10 18:22:07 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 18:22:07 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187538 > > Carol responds: > ?? Lily, I think, would have despaired at first, waking to find her son and husband dead, but would have been fired by revenge and fought valiantly in the Order. But unless LV or another DE killed her (with LV considering his promise to spare the Prophecy Boy's mother as no longer binding), I see no reason why Snape would not have remained a loyal DE. He'd have received his reward (or his request would have been honored). All he wanted at that point was for Lily to live. Potioncat: Even if Lily had survived, she would have been "hurt" and that would be enough to turn Severus. Actually, I think the potential for her being hurt turned him in canon. It's the same dynamic as Regulus and his house elf. (drat, I know his name, but I can't spell it.) Besides, as you say, Snape provided service to DD before LV killed Lily. > > Carol, who thinks that the Prophecy is "real" and that without Harry, all other efforts to defeat LV would have been futile Potioncat: Me too. That's the way a prophecy story works. That's why in a long-a-go thread, I said that Snape's not going to LV wouldn't have changed much. Once a prophecy is spoken and heard---it's in play. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 10 18:32:41 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 18:32:41 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187539 > Montavilla47: > > I agree with your post entirely, including the tiny bit of > reservation. And, reading this last bit reminded me of > something. > > We keep focusing on Snape not asking Dumbledore to > protect James and Harry as if that's remarkable. It's really > not. How many people would seek out the general of an > opposing army to save someone they disliked or felt > indifferent about? > > What is remarkable about Snape's actions is that he > for anybody at all to be spared. > Alla: I agree and disagree at the same time. Of course it is not remarkable for the member of the terrorist gang to not ask to help to keep the lives of his enemies. But it starts become significant (not sure if remarkable is the right word for me to describe how I feel) when we start talking about Snape's change of heart and then it becomes incredibly significant to me. Because if we want to keep talking about Snape as member of Voldie's gang, sure why would any of those bastards would want to save their enemies? But if one wants to argue that Snape is not one of them anymore, that he does want to be different then from the person who is NOT DE, from him I expect to yeah, be at least a tiny bit sorry and remorseful that he put on danger not only woman he loves, but an innocent guy and a little baby. Thus to me Snape who comes to ask for Lily's life only (I remain convinced that it is a right description of that scene) does not do a remarkable thing, just as Narcissa who lies about Harry because she wants to see her son does not do a remarkable thing. Again, please do not get me wrong, I think it is a good thing that people are able to love and sacrifice for loved ones, it shows to me that they are not psychopaths, etc. I however do not believe that for the member of gang of criminals to do something for loved one shows that they did a remarkable thing necessarily. Hm, I have a feeling that I may get a certain question based on what I described. Anyway if Snape would have asked for the lives of his enemies to be spared, yes that I would have found truly remarkable. But as I said upthread, I think he comes to that point by saving Lupin. Ironically I now realize that for all Dumbledore's despicable behavior (IMO) in that scene, I think I should credit him a lot for forcing Snape in his service, otherwise he would not have changed at all IMO. JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 10 18:39:29 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 18:39:29 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187540 > Potioncat: > Me too. That's the way a prophecy story works. That's why in a long-a-go thread, I said that Snape's not going to LV wouldn't have changed much. Once a prophecy is spoken and heard---it's in play. > Alla: Yes, but in play by whom? All those prophecies in MoM that never come true make me think that it could have been spoken, but never played out, I know, I know in a different story :), but if I imagine this different story unfold, it so makes me hate Severus Snape so much more. I mean, we had been through all the possibilities of what could have happened many times, but I just keep thinking that there was a chance that it could have never played out. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 10 19:15:22 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 19:15:22 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187541 > Alla: > > Yes, but in play by whom? All those prophecies in MoM that never come true make me think that it could have been spoken, but never played out, I know, I know in a different story :), but if I imagine this different story unfold, it so makes me hate Severus Snape so much more. > Potioncat: Do we know those prophecies had not come true? I suppose I should go back and read what canon says. That's a section I didn't get. How did the orbs get there and how did the curator know how to label them if he hadn't heard the prophecies? Alla: > I mean, we had been through all the possibilities of what could have happened many times, but I just keep thinking that there was a chance that it could have never played out. Potioncat: To a certain extent, I'm looking at this as a reader who knows that a prophecy always means trouble. If someone tries to prevent its coming true, their very actions will help it along. In fact, we can almost blame DD as much as Snape. If DD hadn't told the prophecy to Harry, Harry might have acted differently. But then, he would have had the power without the knowledge of how to use it. This is also a destiny story. It was Harry's destiny to save the WW. I don't think we modern folk believe in destiny as much as ancient folk did--but it's what JKR pulled from. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 10 20:06:28 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:06:28 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187542 Potioncat: Do we know those prophecies had not come true? I suppose I should go back and read what canon says. That's a section I didn't get. How did the orbs get there and how did the curator know how to label them if he hadn't heard the prophecies? Alla: I was pretty sure that yes all these are true prophecies that did not come true. I cannot answer your other question though, you know do not go back to OOP to often, but I will too when I am home. Potioncat: To a certain extent, I'm looking at this as a reader who knows that a prophecy always means trouble. If someone tries to prevent its coming true, their very actions will help it along. In fact, we can almost blame DD as much as Snape. If DD hadn't told the prophecy to Harry, Harry might have acted differently. But then, he would have had the power without the knowledge of how to use it. This is also a destiny story. It was Harry's destiny to save the WW. I don't think we modern folk believe in destiny as much as ancient folk did--but it's what JKR pulled from. Alla: Well, true, it is a destiny story, but at least according to JKR it is also a story of choices, right? And if Snape is just a blind agent of destiny who just did what mysterious force required of him and had no choice in the matter (I hope I understand your argument correctly), doesn't it undermine whole choices theme in a big way? I mean it always felt to me since the moment she introduced prophecy that destiny and choices are trying to strike some sort of balance with each other, that these two themes are in sort of contradiction, etc, but theme of choices is still there, yes? Although it seems to me that at the end the message is that the best choice is to submit to one's destiny. Sorry, I know I am rambling now. I totally see how we can blame Dumbledore for a) either letting Snape be gone with prophecy deliberately or b) not being smart enough and sharp enough to figure out what is going on and let him go away by accident, depends to what theory you subscribe. I however do not see how we can blame him for telling Harry at all, when somebody already acted on it and his reason for telling was supposed to be to help Harry survive. Hm, since his reason for telling was quite the opposite maybe after all we can blame him as well. Sorry, thinking out loud. JMO, Alla From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Mon Aug 10 20:55:34 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 20:55:34 -0000 Subject: Canon Veelas WAS Re: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187543 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kamion53" wrote: kamion: > just wondering when the female spirit is called a Veela ( first declension noun in Latin) should the male version of it then be called > Veelus or Veelo? Geoff: My Latin grammar would suggest Veelus (second declension). I'm not sure whether any reference to male Veelas is made in canon but on odd occasions when I've been idly flicking through fan fiction and found obscure AU fiction involving these creatures, they've usually been referred to as "male Veelas". Mark you, your average (decent) fan fiction writer probably hasn't met any Latin whatsoever. As Professor Kirke muttered to himself in "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" - "I wonder what they *do* teach them in these schools?" From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 10 21:09:09 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 21:09:09 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187544 Potioncat: > Even if Lily had survived, she would have been "hurt" and that would be enough to turn Severus. Actually, I think the potential for her being hurt turned him in canon. It's the same dynamic as Regulus and his house elf. (drat, I know his name, but I can't spell it.) Besides, as you say, Snape provided service to DD before LV killed Lily. > > > > Carol, who thinks that the Prophecy is "real" and that without Harry, all other efforts to defeat LV would have been futile > > > Potioncat: > Me too. That's the way a prophecy story works. That's why in a long-a-go thread, I said that Snape's not going to LV wouldn't have changed much. Once a prophecy is spoken and heard---it's in play. > Carol ragian: Well, yes and no. It would have worked out in some other way, true, but it wasn't active until LV brought it into play by trying to thwart it. And Snape's going to LV *did* make a difference, IMO. It set up everything that followed, including Lily's chance to live, which made possible her *choice* to die (not *for* but *instead of* Harry). So Snape is a key figure, without whom we'd have a completely different story with no Chosen One. (I think that the Prophecy wouldn't have been fulfilled if a different DE had been the eavesdropper--no one to ask LV to save Lily--but then there would have been no story.) I'm not so sure that Lily would have gone to Severus for comfort, but it does seem that she didn't know he'd been a DE (Sirius didn't), so maybe she would have. But if she'd found out later, would she have reacted like Tom Riddle Sr. finding out that his wife was a witch who tricked him into marrying her? Carol, who likes to think that Severus and Lily finally understood each other in the afterlife and became best friends again (on the same level of friendship as Sirius and James) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 10 21:26:36 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 21:26:36 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187545 Alla wrote: > > Yes, but in play by whom? All those prophecies in MoM that never come true make me think that it could have been spoken, but never played out, I know, I know in a different story :), but if I imagine this different story unfold, it so makes me hate Severus Snape so much more. > > I mean, we had been through all the possibilities of what could have happened many times, but I just keep thinking that there was a chance that it could have never played out. > Carol responds: I agree with you about the unfulfilled prophecies in the MoM and that this one might never have been fulfilled, in which case Voldemort would have remained in power and there would have been no Chosen One. But Voldie brought it into play by trying to thwart it, and Snape made possible Lily's choice to die, which in turn brought about the Love Magic. Had any one of them acted differently, the Prophecy would not have been fulfilled, and "the one with the power" would never have acquired that power. Either he would have been an ordinary Wizard boy like Ron and Neville (with or without parents) with no soul-bit inhabited scar and no connection with Voldemort or he would have died because LV had made no promise to Snape and was free to kill all three Potters with no consequences. None of them intended the consequences--Voldie vaporized, Harry the Chosen One, and a respite for the WW--but without their actions (Voldie trying to thwart the Prophecy; Snape reporting the Prophecy, repenting, and trying to save Lily; and Lily telling LV to kill her instead) the WW would simply have continued as it was with no one to thwart the to all intents and purposes immortal LV and the Order members being killed off one by one. Obviously, I'm not giving Snape credit for consequences he never intended. All he wanted was for Lily to live. I'm only saying that his action in reporting the Prophecy turned out to be a good thing in disguise, and his action in trying to save Lily (as no other DE would have done) made her Love Magic possible. Otherwise, she would just have died like James *without a choice to live*, and Harry would also have died just like the McKinnon children. Carol, who thinks that, sad though it was for Lily and James and hard though it was for Harry, the fulfilling of the Prophecy was a good thing for the rest of the WW, which received a thirteen-year-respite and was eventually saved by the Chosen One (with luck and help as usual) From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue Aug 11 11:46:39 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 11:46:39 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187546 > Carol: > ?? Well, yes and no. It would have worked out in some other way, true, but it wasn't active until LV brought it into play by trying to thwart it. And Snape's going to LV *did* make a difference, IMO. It set up everything that followed, including Lily's chance to live, which made possible her *choice* to die (not *for* but *instead of* Harry). So Snape is a key figure, without whom we'd have a completely different story with no Chosen One. (I think that the Prophecy wouldn't have been fulfilled if a different DE had been the eavesdropper--no one to ask LV to save Lily--but then there would have been no story.) Potioncat: I spoke too soon. Now that I recall it, the past discussion was whether it would have been better for Harry if Snape had not told LV. That's a different issue all together. I love the way the prophecy worked (not the wording of it). That the eavesdropper was the person who tried to save the Potters and suffered remorse because of his role in the prophecy--that he had reported a bit of information that would hit him so personally, and actually played a bigger role than he imagined. Agreed, that would have changed if Snape had not told the prophecy to LV. But I think the mere fact that DD and someone else heard the prophecy put it into play. It could have worked like this: Alternate DE hears prophesy and tells LV. Snape learns that the Potters are being targeted and asks for Lily to be spared. He goes to DD, just in case. Snape isn't racked by guilt that he's one the one who told the prophecy (and may not even know about a prophecy) but he is desperate to save Lily. (The story is much better with Snape being the eavesdropper.) The more I think about it, it is vital that both LV and DD hear the prophecy. The actions the two of them take will lead up to marking Harry and later, allowing Harry to fulfill his destiny within the prophecy. And I wonder now if the reason DD allowed Snape to go free after overhearing the prophecy is because trying to interfere would be worse than going along with it. > Carol: ?? I'm not so sure that Lily would have gone to Severus for comfort, but it does seem that she didn't know he'd been a DE (Sirius didn't), so maybe she would have. But if she'd found out later, would she have reacted like Tom Riddle Sr. finding out that his wife was a witch who tricked him into marrying her? Potioncat: I agree---back to a scenario where Lily lives but Harry dies. The closest they could be at that point is fellow order members. I don't see any relationship at all if Harry had died. Nor do I think Snape actually hoped for one. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 11 13:44:53 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 13:44:53 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187547 Potioncat: I love the way the prophecy worked (not the wording of it). That the eavesdropper was the person who tried to save the Potters and suffered remorse because of his role in the prophecy--that he had reported a bit of information that would hit him so personally, and actually played a bigger role than he imagined. Agreed, that would have changed if Snape had not told the prophecy to LV. But I think the mere fact that DD and someone else heard the prophecy put it into play. It could have worked like this: Alternate DE hears prophesy and tells LV. Snape learns that the Potters are being targeted and asks for Lily to be spared. He goes to DD, just in case. Snape isn't racked by guilt that he's one the one who told the prophecy (and may not even know about a prophecy) but he is desperate to save Lily. (The story is much better with Snape being the eavesdropper.) Alla: I disagree, I mean I cannot disprove your alternative scenario, but in my opinion the scenario that plays out under the conditions that you describe make Snape to be a blameless tool in the hands of fate who had no choice. Could it work as you described? Sure it could, but it is also possible IMO that no alternate death eater would ever be there and Voldemort would have never heard it and prophecy would have joined the many that never came true. From the storyline pov I love how it worked out too by the way. I would not have changed anything, I just like to imagine how much easier longer IMO Potters' life would have had if one Severus Snape would never came to it, but it is of course fanfic scenarios, not canon. Potioncat: The more I think about it, it is vital that both LV and DD hear the prophecy. The actions the two of them take will lead up to marking Harry and later, allowing Harry to fulfill his destiny within the prophecy. And I wonder now if the reason DD allowed Snape to go free after overhearing the prophecy is because trying to interfere would be worse than going along with it. Alla: I do agree that it is important that LV and DD both hear the Prophecy, but I think it is just as important for Snape to make it possible for LV to hear it in order for Prophecy to work out. I think Dumbledore looks bad no matter what reason was that he let Snape go free personally, but I still prefer to think that he did not do it deliberately or at least if he did do it deliberately, that was because as Pippin (I think) speculated that at that time Dumbledore did not know yet that Snape was a DE and preferred not to detain the innocent man. I do like that speculation, because even though DD knows that Snape is a DE when Snape comes to him to beg for Lily, he could have learned it in between two encounters, right? Potioncat: I agree---back to a scenario where Lily lives but Harry dies. The closest they could be at that point is fellow order members. I don't see any relationship at all if Harry had died. Nor do I think Snape actually hoped for one. Alla: Heh, well you know what I think, I think Snape would have grasped the chance to have a relationship with Lily with both hands ? and with her family dead, all the better for him. I do hope though that if she would ever found out how Snape helped her family to die I hope her answer would be nice and fast AK. I know, I know Lily is too kind and would have never done that, I do think though that for her to express her disgust and tell Snape she would not ever want to see him again, fellow order member or not is not out of realm of possibility. JMO, Alla From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 11 17:00:52 2009 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:00:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187548 > Carol: > > So I suspect--and admittedly I'm only guessing--that he was asked, > > perhaps belatedly, to name his own reward for revealing the > > Prophecy. Maybe he deferred for a time, but came back later and > > asked for Lily (ostensibly as a prize; really, to save her life) > > when he found that LV interpreted the Prophecy to mean that Harry > > Potter was "the one with the power." It makes more sense to me that > > Snape would have asked it as a reward than as a favor. Or perhaps, > > having delivered the Prophecy brought him into the "inner circle" > > where he was in a position to belatedly request the favor/reward at > > some point when LV was in what passed for a generous mood. > > SSSusan: > While what you suggest is certainly one possibility, I still have no trouble imagining just the asking of a favor. We saw a *very* distraught Snape appealing to DD, and I can also easily imagine him requesting a flat-out favor of Voldy -- in desperation, rather than awaiting a time when Voldy happened to be in a relatively good mood and Snape thought he'd try cashing in on a stockpiled reward offer. > Montavilla47: The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the timeline went something more like this: 1978-1979ish: Snape joins the Death Eaters. Dumbledore forms the Order of the Phoenix. Lily and James are approached for recruitment by Voldemort and refuse--either once or more than once. After refusing, they are placed somewhere on the DE hit list. It might be high or it might be low priority. But it's high enough that James and Lily "defy" him by living (or refusing recruitment) three times. Late 1979--Early 1980: Snape overhears the prophecy. He takes it to Voldemort, who is pleased enough to grant Snape a favor. At this point, Snape asks that Lily be removed from the hit list. Voldemort readilty grants this, as neither of them knows about Lily's pregnancy, and, after all, one witch more or else isn't going to make a difference to his world domination plans. Late 1980: Voldemort decides that Harry is the prophecy boy and declares the Potters to be highest on the hit list. Snape reminds Voldemort about his promise to keep Lily off it. Voldemort hesitates and says he will spare Lily, if he can. This hesitancy alerts Snape to the reality of Voldemort's intentions. Circumstances have changed and Snape can't trust Voldemort's promise, so he contacts Dumbledore for the hilltop summit. I realize this timeline may not be pleasing, as it mitigates Snape's sin in not asking Voldemort to spare James and Harry, since Harry didn't exist at the time of the asking-- but I think it makes a lot more sense logically, since it makes both Snape and Voldemort appear a bit less idiotic in what they ask for and what they grant. From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 11 17:13:36 2009 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:13:36 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187549 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > Montavilla47: > > > > I agree with your post entirely, including the tiny bit of > > reservation. And, reading this last bit reminded me of > > something. > > > > We keep focusing on Snape not asking Dumbledore to > > protect James and Harry as if that's remarkable. It's really > > not. How many people would seek out the general of an > > opposing army to save someone they disliked or felt > > indifferent about? > > > > What is remarkable about Snape's actions is that he > > for anybody at all to be spared. > > > > Alla: > I agree and disagree at the same time. Of course it is not remarkable for the member of the terrorist gang to not ask to help to keep the lives of his enemies. But it starts become significant (not sure if remarkable is the right word for me to describe how I feel) when we start talking about Snape's change of heart and then it becomes incredibly significant to me. Because if we want to keep talking about Snape as member of Voldie's gang, sure why would any of those bastards would want to save their enemies? But if one wants to argue that Snape is not one of them anymore, that he does want to be different then from the person who is NOT DE, from him I expect to yeah, be at least a tiny bit sorry and remorseful that he put on danger not only woman he loves, but an innocent guy and a little baby. Thus to me Snape who comes to ask for Lily's life only (I remain convinced that it is a right description of that scene) does not do a remarkable thing, just as Narcissa who lies about Harry because she wants to see her son does not do a remarkable thing. Again, please do not get me wrong, I think it is a good thing that people are able to love and sacrifice for loved ones, it shows to me that they are not psychopaths, etc. I however do not believe that for the member of gang of criminals to do something for loved one shows that they did a remarkable thing necessarily. > > Hm, I have a feeling that I may get a certain question based on what I described. > > Anyway if Snape would have asked for the lives of his enemies to be spared, yes that I would have found truly remarkable. Montavilla47: Yes, I agree. That would have been truly remarkable. And suicidal, if he had asked Voldemort! And, pretty stupid, since it's like telling Bush that Osama Bin Laden is determined to strike within the U.S., while simultaneously begging him to let Bin Laden go on his merry way. Obviously, of course, Harry wasn't Bin Laden. He was, as you say, an innocent baby. But, if you knew for certain that he was going to kill your leader when he grew up, would you be begging the leader to let him do just that? Alla: > But as I said upthread, I think he comes to that point by saving Lupin. Ironically I now realize that for all Dumbledore's despicable behavior (IMO) in that scene, I think I should credit him a lot for forcing Snape in his service, otherwise he would not have changed at all IMO. Montavilla47: I have to say that I agree with you here. The point isn't that Snape's heart suddenly grew three times (the like Grinch's) when he realized Voldemort threatened someone he loved. Nor does Narcissa's. But it's a start. And his love for Lily leads to his service with Dumbledore, which leads him to assume (without internalizing it) the protection of said innocent baby. Of course, the innocent baby turns out to be a cheeky eleven-year-old boy and it all turns out to be even harder than it seemed when Dumbledore made the request, but Snape does it anyway. And, eventually, he does internalize it. From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 11 17:33:29 2009 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:33:29 -0000 Subject: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187550 > Carol, who likes to think that Severus and Lily finally understood each other in the afterlife and became best friends again (on the same level of friendship as Sirius and James) > Montavilla47: Hehe. I sort of figured that Snape's afterlife would be mercifully free of both Lily and the other assorted Potters. But your tagline here makes me wonder if maybe Snape and Lily might not get together so that Lily could find out exactly what she'd been missing out on all those years ago. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 11 18:16:45 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 18:16:45 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187551 Montavilla47: Yes, I agree. That would have been truly remarkable. And suicidal, if he had asked Voldemort! And, pretty stupid, since it's like telling Bush that Osama Bin Laden is determined to strike within the U.S., while simultaneously begging him to let Bin Laden go on his merry way. Obviously, of course, Harry wasn't Bin Laden. He was, as you say, an innocent baby. But, if you knew for certain that he was going to kill your leader when he grew up, would you be begging the leader to let him do just that? Alla: Yes, Harry is not Bin Laden, we agree on that. Actually, I blame Snape for not asking Dumbledore to save Potters (yes, I think he was perfectly clear when he talked to Dumbledore), I am not particularly blaming him for not asking Voldemort. But now when you brought it up, I think I have the same answer pretty much, if Snape still considered himself a member of the gang of terrorists, no I would not expect him to ask his leader for his enemy's lives, but if he is not? Yes, I do expect him to do that, especially since he decided to ask for one person already. I totally agree though that it will be a suicidal gesture, but Snape not asking Dumbledore I find pretty damning and inexcusable in a very real and doable way. Him asking Voldemort? Well, as a symbol of real remorse that would work for me that he truly understood what his leader is all about, etc. Montavilla: I realize this timeline may not be pleasing, as it mitigates Snape's sin in not asking Voldemort to spare James and Harry, since Harry didn't exist at the time of the asking-- but I think it makes a lot more sense logically, since it makes both Snape and Voldemort appear a bit less idiotic in what they ask for and what they grant. Alla: Yes, it makes Snape look more logical and less idiotic I agree with that. I also think that it makes him less cruel. As to Voldemort, I would think him acting logical does not happen almost ever in canon, so I do not see why he would have acted logically on that occasion. I mean, I am still trying to figure out how logical it was to give Harry his wand back in GoF or how very logical it was to hide his most precious Horcruxes in the objects related to founders, etc. Because these objects were so noticeable, why not hide Horcruxes in something less ordinary? But I do understand the timeline and the reasoning behind it at least. JMO, Alla From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 11 18:50:41 2009 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 18:50:41 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187552 > Montavilla47: > Yes, I agree. That would have been truly remarkable. > And suicidal, if he had asked Voldemort! And, pretty > stupid, since it's like telling Bush that Osama Bin Laden > is determined to strike within the U.S., while simultaneously > begging him to let Bin Laden go on his merry way. > > Obviously, of course, Harry wasn't Bin Laden. He was, > as you say, an innocent baby. But, if you knew for certain > that he was going to kill your leader when he grew up, > would you be begging the leader to let him do just that? > > > Alla: > > Yes, Harry is not Bin Laden, we agree on that. > > Actually, I blame Snape for not asking Dumbledore to save Potters (yes, I think he was perfectly clear when he talked to Dumbledore), I am not particularly blaming him for not asking Voldemort. But now when you brought it up, I think I have the same answer pretty much, if Snape still considered himself a member of the gang of terrorists, no I would not expect him to ask his leader for his enemy's lives, but if he is not? Montavilla47: I think that Snape still did consider himself a member of the DE whenever he asked Voldemort to spare Lily (either early on or later). I don't know why he wouldn't consider himself so, because, even if had had an epiphany about how wrong the DE were (and I don't think that he'd had one by then), there's no graceful way to remove yourself from DE membership. That was made very clear when Karkakoff tried to hide his way out of the DE, and when Regulus decided the smartest thing he could do was drink poison. Alla: > Yes, I do expect him to do that, especially since he decided to ask for one person already. I totally agree though that it will be a suicidal gesture, but Snape not asking Dumbledore I find pretty damning and inexcusable in a very real and doable way. Him asking Voldemort? Well, as a symbol of real remorse that would work for me that he truly understood what his leader is all about, etc. Montavilla47: Well, I guess we're just going over old ground, because I don't find it that big a deal that Snape didn't specifically ask Dumbledore to protect James and Harry. Nor do I think it that big a deal that he didn't care enough about them to ask. Look, if Little Timmy goes up to Superman and says, "Oh, Superman! Please stop that runaway train, my dog Skipper is on board," we don't fault him because he neglected to ask Superman to save the four thousand human passengers who are also on board. They are implied. As far as Timmy's concerned, if Superman swooped in and got Skipper, leaving the others to their deaths, that would be fine. But we all know that Superman isn't going to go that, he's going to go fix the bridge and save everyone. Likewise, although Snape is only asking about the person he cares about, there isn't any way for Dumbledore to save Lily without saving Harry as well--although it's possible he might leave James out in the open for Voldemort to pick off. Of course, that's my feeling on the subject. It's pretty obvious that we're meant to share Dumbledore's disgust about Snape's indifference to James and Harry. And, considering Dumbledore's indifference to the hundreds or thousands that might have died while Harry enjoyed a blythe childhood at Hogwarts, that's pretty ironic. > Montavilla: > > I realize this timeline may not be pleasing, as it mitigates > Snape's sin in not asking Voldemort to spare James and > Harry, since Harry didn't exist at the time of the asking-- > but I think it makes a lot more sense logically, since it > makes both Snape and Voldemort appear a bit less idiotic > in what they ask for and what they grant. > > Alla: > > Yes, it makes Snape look more logical and less idiotic I agree with that. I also think that it makes him less cruel. > As to Voldemort, I would think him acting logical does not happen almost ever in canon, so I do not see why he would have acted logically on that occasion. I mean, I am still trying to figure out how logical it was to give Harry his wand back in GoF or how very logical it was to hide his most precious Horcruxes in the objects related to founders, etc. Because these objects were so noticeable, why not hide Horcruxes in something less ordinary? Montavilla47: I don't think giving Harry the wand back was such a stupid move. Voldemort wanted to show his followers that Harry wasn't a threat. He needed to reinforce the idea that he was the greatest Dark Lord in existence--an image that must have suffered when he got defeated by a baby! And Harry shouldn't have been a threat. He was a fourteen-year-old wizard. Yes, he was a champion, but only with a lot of help. I'm sure the fourteen-year-old Tom could have wiped the floor with Harry, so why not the seventy-year-old Voldemort? The only reason Harry made it out of the graveyard that night was because of a fluke. His wand shared a core with Voldemort's. Of course, if Harry had been less magically powerful than he was, the golden bead thingy would have been forced into his wand and we would have seen a couple stunning spells and some red flare sparks instead of the shades of James, Lily, Bertha, Frank, and Cedric. But it was still a fluke and Voldemort had no way of knowing that it would happen. As for hiding his Horcruxes in the founder's objects--that wasn't completely illogical either. If he'd hid his soul in some old boot, then it might have gotten thrown in an incineration pit. In anyone found the founder's objects and didn't know they contained Horcurxes, they'd still be likely to preserve them, since they were relics. It made more sense to me than Tom stealing trinkets from the kids in the orphanage. Montavilla47 Who believes she's hit her limit of posts today. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 11 19:09:13 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 19:09:13 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187553 Montavilla47: I think that Snape still did consider himself a member of the DE whenever he asked Voldemort to spare Lily (either early on or later). I don't know why he wouldn't consider himself so, because, even if had had an epiphany about how wrong the DE were (and I don't think that he'd had one by then), there's no graceful way to remove yourself from DE membership. That was made very clear when Karkakoff tried to hide his way out of the DE, and when Regulus decided the smartest thing he could do was drink poison. Alla: I meant mentally of course, to me the question is whether Snape mentally considered himself a DE, meaning whether he shared Voldemort's goals when he was making his request ( some or all of them) and if not, then I already said upthread how he in my view should have acted. Obviously his dark mark was not going anywhere at that time. Montavilla47: Well, I guess we're just going over old ground, because I don't find it that big a deal that Snape didn't specifically ask Dumbledore to protect James and Harry. Nor do I think it that big a deal that he didn't care enough about them to ask. Look, if Little Timmy goes up to Superman and says, "Oh, Superman! Please stop that runaway train, my dog Skipper is on board," we don't fault him because he neglected to ask Superman to save the four thousand human passengers who are also on board. They are implied. Alla: Well I think vast majority of our arguments is an old ground by now, if a new idea comes up it is pretty rare, no? So yes, I think it is a big deal not even from the practical POV of what Dumbledore would have done, but from thinking about Snape's mindset. Of course Superman is going to at least try to save them, but I would still find Little Timmy to be pretty disgusting little shmack, especially if he put his dog on the train himself, knowing that this train is going to crash AND if he helped putting all other people on the train too, but still concerned only with his dog. Montavilla47: I don't think giving Harry the wand back was such a stupid move. Voldemort wanted to show his followers that Harry wasn't a threat. He needed to reinforce the idea that he was the greatest Dark Lord in existence--an image that must have suffered when he got defeated by a baby Alla: I do, whether Harry should have been a threat or not, Voldemort knows that he survived his attempt to kill him at least once, I do not know how it is plausible in any sort of way for anybody to think that helpless prey is better than prey who has some sort of weapon in his hands. With wand Harry can do *something*, without wand really nothing. Montavilla: As for hiding his Horcruxes in the founder's objects--that wasn't completely illogical either. If he'd hid his soul in some old boot, then it might have gotten thrown in an incineration pit. In anyone found the founder's objects and didn't know they contained Horcurxes, they'd still be likely to preserve them, since they were relics. Alla: But it is easier to locate known relics than unknown ones, is it not? It makes no sense to me whatsoever, honestly. Montavilla47 Who believes she's hit her limit of posts today. Alla: I see four, but maybe my math is wrong, so see you tomorrow :) From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 11 21:26:10 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 21:26:10 -0000 Subject: Voldie's Psychology WAS Re: Snape's Psychology: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187554 > > Jen: Maybe 'altruistic' isn't the best word. I didn't elaborate but the main point is Voldemort tends to give his followers rewards that serve him in some way, i.e., Draco's task, letting Lucius & Bella guard his Horcruxes or giving Peter the silver hand. There's no benefit to saving Lily. Pippin: Oh, but there is. If Voldemort has some service in mind which Snape would find more dangerous and less to his liking than overhearing conversations in an inn, some additional incentive might be useful. Lily would be no good for that if she's dead. And sparing Lily is not actually quite the same as giving her to Snape, which is what Voldemort thinks that Snape wants, and *all* that he thinks Snape wants. I agree that Voldemort wouldn't see a need to strengthen Snape's loyalty, and that he's not in the habit of giving rewards out of gratitude. But Voldemort may already see the potential to make Snape his spy at Hogwarts and Dumbledore's eventual murderer. He will need a way to make sure that Snape does not slither out of action. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 11 22:20:20 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 22:20:20 -0000 Subject: Another thought about Snape's psychology Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187555 What if Snape's subconscious motive is not jealousy per se but the sexual humiliation of losing Lily to James? By definition, a subconscious motive is both unknown and unknowable to the person who has it. He is not merely unaware of it, he would utterly reject any attempt to make him recognize it. He either cannot explain why he acts as he does, or he unconsciously invents explanations which seem plausible, at least to him. For a mind as creative as Snape's, that would be no problem. In that case, all the reasons Snape gives to justify his hatred for Harry, however valid they may seem to him, are only defense mechanisms and masks which allow him to repress a feeling he cannot accept, perhaps because he never came to terms with his own desire for Lily. I can't prove this directly from canon, but it does seem that the two situations where Snape is angriest and most beyond reason are ones in which he is forced to confront his humiliation by James, in SWM and also in the Shrieking Shack when Harry says, "just because they made a fool of you at school." This theory might also throw some light on why Snape was not satisfied with Voldemort's promise to save Lily for him when, as far as we know, he had trusted the Dark Lord up to that time. Voldemort assumed that Snape wanted to save Lily because he desired her. But if Snape himself was not so comfortable with that idea, if he was in fact repressing his physical desire for her, as the silver doe would seem to indicate, then he might actually be disgusted by the Dark Lord's assumption that he wanted her. Pippin From caaf at hotmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:54:07 2009 From: caaf at hotmail.com (Cyril A Fernandes) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 01:24:07 +0530 Subject: Re Harry beating Voldemort in the Graveyard: was Re: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187556 Cyril here: Snipping most of this post as I only want to comment on one aspect Montavilla47: I don't think giving Harry the wand back was such a stupid move. Voldemort wanted to show his followers that Harry wasn't a threat. He needed to reinforce the idea that he was the greatest Dark Lord in existence--an image that must have suffered when he got defeated by a baby! And Harry shouldn't have been a threat. He was a fourteen-year-old wizard. Yes, he was a champion, but only with a lot of help. I'm sure the fourteen-year-old Tom could have wiped the floor with Harry, so why not the seventy-year-old Voldemort? The only reason Harry made it out of the graveyard that night was because of a fluke. His wand shared a core with Voldemort's. Of course, if Harry had been less magically powerful than he was, the golden bead thingy would have been forced into his wand and we would have seen a couple stunning spells and some red flare sparks instead of the shades of James, Lily, Bertha, Frank, and Cedric. But it was still a fluke and Voldemort had no way of knowing that it would happen. Cyril here: IMO, the one reason I believe that Harry won this war of the brother wands was because of the Horcrux in his scar. I do not believe that Harry was in any way more magically more powerful than LV. However, the Horcrux has self-preservation capability that is extremely powerful, and would have given Harry the required power to push the beads LV's way. I also believe that it had a role to play in Vernon suddenly getting a jolt of electricity when he's trying to apparently strangle Harry (I forget which book this occured in). I know that this is not consistent as a protection - for there are numerous examples of Harry being well defeated, (such as the Battle with Snape, or Draco smashing his nose in HBP) - but possibly as Harry's life was not threatened in these situations - the Horcrux was also not in self-preservation mode. In both the situations mentioned above - in the Battle with LV and the 'apparent' strangling by Vernon - this mode may have kicked in. The other instance when Harry was in grave danger was in PoA when he was being attacked by the Dementors by the lake. Here, again either the Horcurx was not in self-preservation mode as Harry would not have died from the Dementor's kiss - or possibly it was even hiding as it may have been afraid of being sucked out itself - not sure if it is immune to Dementors. JMO, Cyril. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Tue Aug 11 23:32:10 2009 From: juli17 at aol.com (julie) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 23:32:10 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187557 > > Montavilla47: > > Well, I guess we're just going over old ground, because I don't > find it that big a deal that Snape didn't specifically ask Dumbledore > to protect James and Harry. Nor do I think it that big a deal > that he didn't care enough about them to ask. > > Look, if Little Timmy goes up to Superman and says, "Oh, > Superman! Please stop that runaway train, my dog Skipper is > on board," we don't fault him because he neglected to ask > Superman to save the four thousand human passengers > who are also on board. They are implied. > > As far as Timmy's concerned, if Superman swooped in and > got Skipper, leaving the others to their deaths, that would be > fine. But we all know that Superman isn't going to go that, > he's going to go fix the bridge and save everyone. > > Likewise, although Snape is only asking about the person > he cares about, there isn't any way for Dumbledore to save > Lily without saving Harry as well--although it's possible he > might leave James out in the open for Voldemort to pick off. > > Of course, that's my feeling on the subject. It's pretty > obvious that we're meant to share Dumbledore's disgust > about Snape's indifference to James and Harry. And, > considering Dumbledore's indifference to the hundreds > or thousands that might have died while Harry enjoyed > a blythe childhood at Hogwarts, that's pretty ironic. > Julie: In the scenes between Dumbledore and YoungAdult!Snape in DH, I was never bothered by Snape's lack of concern for James and Harry, for exactly the reason you outline above. It is implied in Snape's request that Dumbledore will save Harry and James--the entire family--even though Snape doesn't ask specifically and really doesn't care. The fact that he doesn't care also makes sense to me, as Snape is a willing DE, so it's reasonable that his change of heart in general wil take place over a period of time, rather than as some sudden epiphany. What bothered me was Dumbledore's response. In every other confrontation with anyone acting on the "bad" side--Draco, Voldemort/Tom, Lucius, Fudge, Umbridge, the Dursleys, etc-- Dumbledore delivers his condemnations in soft-spoken tones, using gentle admonishments to make his points and attempt to alter behavior or attitudes. Except for with Snape here, where he expresses extreme disgust rather than using his typical method (for instance, Snape: "You must save Lily!!" Dumbledore: "And I assume it will be all right with you if I include her husband and son under my protection? Or shall I abandon the family she loves to your master's amusement?" Snape, sputtering: "I didn't--I--yes, yes, save them all!") I agree that Dumbledore's open disgust was intended for the readers to share, though I think JKR could have achieved the same while leaving Dumbledore in character. It's not like we missed anything about Umbridge's or Tom's or the Dursleys' characters because Dumbledore didn't directly and loudly announce his disgust. Julie, still not sure why JKR had Dumbledore treat Snape so differently than he did anyone else in the books. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Wed Aug 12 06:33:28 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 06:33:28 -0000 Subject: Re Harry beating Voldemort in the Graveyard: was Re: Snape's Psychology: WAS: Mo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187558 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cyril A Fernandes" wrote: Cyril: > IMO, the one reason I believe that Harry won this war of the brother wands was because of the Horcrux in his scar. I do not believe that Harry was in any way more magically more powerful than LV. However, the Horcrux has self-preservation capability that is extremely powerful, and would have given Harry the required power to push the beads LV's way. I also believe that it had a role to play in Vernon suddenly getting a jolt of electricity when he's trying to apparently strangle Harry (I forget which book this occured in). Geoff: Just for completeness, - Goblet of Fire, "Dudley Demented", page 10, UK edition. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Aug 12 11:37:08 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 11:37:08 -0000 Subject: Prophecy (was Re: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187559 > > Alla: > I disagree, I mean I cannot disprove your alternative scenario, but in my opinion the scenario that plays out under the conditions that you describe make Snape to be a blameless tool in the hands of fate who had no choice. Could it work as you described? Sure it could, but it is also possible IMO that no alternate death eater would ever be there and Voldemort would have never heard it and prophecy would have joined the many that never came true. From the storyline pov I love how it worked out too by the way. I would not have changed anything, I just like to imagine how much easier longer IMO Potters' life would have had if one Severus Snape would never came to it, but it is of course fanfic scenarios, not canon. > Potioncat: I don't see how either scenario makes Snape a blameless tool. It was his choice to tell LV. My point is only that there are other ways the prophecy could have played out. I would love to know the evolution of this plot line. Did JKR consider different variations until she hit on the final one? Here's another. Lily and James are in Hogsmeade and bump into Trelawney who goes into a trance and speaks the prophecy. James and Lily are very amused and tell the other Marauders about it. Of course Wormtail tells LV. And it's not until James and Lily realise that the prophecy was about Harry that they grasp the seriousness of it. Do you think that if Snape had not told LV, that the prophecy would have worked out some other way? Like, Harry would have grown up and taken on LV? Because, I don't see any pleasant outcome if LV had vaporised himself in Godrick's Hollow. Or do you think if LV had not heard the prophecy that someone else would have been able to defeat him? Again, I'm coming from the idea that once a prophecy appears in a storyline, it has to play out in some way. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 12 16:21:18 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 16:21:18 -0000 Subject: Re Harry beating Voldemort in the Graveyard: was Re: Snape's Psychology: WAS: Mo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187560 Montavilla47 wrote: > The only reason Harry made it out of the graveyard that night was because of a fluke. His wand shared a core with Voldemort's. Of course, if Harry had been less magically powerful than he was, the golden bead thingy would have been forced into his wand and we would have seen a couple stunning spells and some red flare sparks instead of the shades of James, Lily, Bertha, Frank, and Cedric. > > But it was still a fluke and Voldemort had no way of knowing that it would happen. Cyril replied: > > IMO, the one reason I believe that Harry won this war of the brother wands was because of the Horcrux in his scar. I do not believe that Harry was in any way more magically more powerful than LV. However, the Horcrux has self-preservation capability that is extremely powerful, and would have given Harry the required power to push the beads LV's way. I also believe that it had a role to play in Vernon suddenly getting a jolt of electricity when he's trying to apparently strangle Harry (I forget which book this occured in). Carol responds: I always thought that Harry won the battle of the wand cores for the same reason that Fawkes (as arranged by Dumbledore?) helped him in CoS: Phoenixes are on the side of good. The wands share a Phoenix-feather core (from Fawkes) and Harry hears Phoenix song as the cage of golden light surrounds him and Voldemort. Presumably, Voldemort and the DEs hear the music, too, but according to Fantastic Beasts, "Phoenix song is magical; it is reputed to increase the courage of the pure of heart and to strike fear into the hearts of the impure." Phoenixes are gentle birds that live on herbs and are, of course, associated with healing (FBAWTFT 32). In a contest between Voldemort and Harry using twin Phoenix feather wands that don't work properly against each other, Harry would have the advantage if the wand core shares the qualities of the bird it came from. "And then an unearthly and beautiful sound filled the air . . . . It was coming from every thread of the light-spun web vibrating around Harry and Voldemort. It was a sound Harry recognized, though he had heard it only once before in his life: phoenix song. "It was the sound of hope to Harry . . . the most beautiful and welcome thing he had ever heard in his life. . . . He felt as though the song were inside him instead of just around him. It was the sound he connected with Dumbledore, and it was almost as though a friend were speaking in his ear . . . *Don't break the connection*" (GoF Am. ed. 664, ellipses and emphasis JKR's). Clearly, the Phoenix-feather-generated light and music are on Harry's side. IOW, I agree that Harry's victory has nothing to do with his power (which is too weak to register with Voldemort's boat even in HBP), but I don't think it has anything to do with his having a soul bit in his scar, either (surely the soul bit was on Voldemort's side in GoF, just as it was in OoP--note the snakelike urge to bite DD--and just as the diary and locket Horcruxes are in CoS and DH); it's his courage and strength of will (helped by the Phoenix song) that give him the victory over Voldemort in the graveyard, IMO--or basically love, innocence, and goodness giving him "the power that the Dark Lord knows not." If the brother wands had had cores of dragon heart string, Voldemort might have won the battle of wills, but when Fawkes is involved directly or indirectly, he always loses. As for the electrical charge that attacks Uncle Vernon when he tries to throttle Harry in OoP, I can't decide whether that's the scar (although he doesn't feel any snakelike urge to bite Uncle Vernon), the Love Magic that protects him at 4 Privet Drive (if it extends beyond Voldemort and his supporters), or accidental magic triggered by anger (not to mention a need for self-defense). We see sparks coming out of the wands even of adult Wizards (Snape, for one) when they're angry, so I'm inclined to think that it's accidental magic. Carol, who thinks that the scene foreshadows Harry's ultimate victory over Voldemort through the power of love From zgirnius at yahoo.com Wed Aug 12 16:29:55 2009 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 16:29:55 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's psychology (WAS Re: Snape's Psychology...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187561 > Julie: > What bothered me was Dumbledore's response. In every other > confrontation with anyone acting on the "bad" side--Draco, > Voldemort/Tom, Lucius, Fudge, Umbridge, the Dursleys, etc-- > Dumbledore delivers his condemnations in soft-spoken tones, > using gentle admonishments to make his points and attempt > to alter behavior or attitudes. Zara: My own take on this is that Albus, whether consciously or not, saw his own youthful self/youthful mideeds in Snape, far more than in any of the other "bad guys" we see him interact with. And it caused him to respond to Snape, the way Aberforth responded to him when he himsef was young. They both, for example, have backgrounds that might make them less sympathetic to Muggles, both were bright and magically powerful (Albus more so) and they both went down a bad path until harm (in Snape's case, potential harm) to a loved one diverted them from it. Albus, apparently, decided to forego the Ministership and spend his life in a position in which he felt he could do more good and wreak less harm as a result of his deliberations after Ariana's death. I think his reaction to Snape was very much "So you're sorry, huh? What are you willing to do about it?" I think the answer of "Anything" (backed up by, at a guess, several months to a year of spying in the first war) went a long way towards creating the opinion expressed in the GoF Pensieve scene in which Albus declares of Snape, "He is now no more a Death Eater than I am." From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 12 16:57:07 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 16:57:07 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187562 Julie wrote: > In the scenes between Dumbledore and YoungAdult!Snape in DH, I was never bothered by Snape's lack of concern for James and Harry, for exactly the reason you outline above. It is implied in Snape's request that Dumbledore will save Harry and James--the entire family--even though Snape doesn't ask specifically and really doesn't care. The fact that he doesn't care also makes sense to me, as Snape is a willing DE, so it's reasonable that his change of heart in general wil take place over a period of time, rather than as some sudden epiphany. Carol responds: I agree except that I'd say Snape *has been* a willing DE. He has clearly lost his trust in Voldemort to the extent that he risks his life to seek Lily's protection by LV's greatest and most powerful enemy. I'd say that his loyalty to LV is at least wavering and possibly lost along with his trust--he's not going to support a Dark Lord who threatens the life of the woman he loves. His promise to do "anything" to save Lily seals the deal--from that point forward, as Harry says in the graveyard scene, he's DD's man. not LV's. Whatever goals and values he thought he shared with the DEs and LV are nothing compared with his lifelong love for Lily. I do agree, however, that his conversion to the good side is not a sudden epiphany. He has no objection to DD's extending his protection to James and Harry, but it never occurred to him to include them in his request. It's a long time before he reaches the point of saving the lives of strangers and enemies rather than watching them die. Julie: > What bothered me was Dumbledore's response. In every other confrontation with anyone acting on the "bad" side--Draco, Voldemort/Tom, Lucius, Fudge, Umbridge, the Dursleys, etc--Dumbledore delivers his condemnations in soft-spoken tones, using gentle admonishments to make his points and attempt to alter behavior or attitudes. Except for with Snape here, where he expresses extreme disgust rather than using his typical method > I agree that Dumbledore's open disgust was intended for the readers to share, though I think JKR could have achieved the same while leaving Dumbledore in character. It's not like we missed anything about Umbridge's or Tom's or the Dursleys' characters because Dumbledore didn't directly and loudly announce his disgust. > > Julie, still not sure why JKR had Dumbledore treat Snape so differently than he did anyone else in the books. Carol responds: Well, of course, Draco is a special case--a teenage boy under orders to kill or be killed along with his family, who certainly would not have responded well to being told that DD was disgusted with him. DD was using psychology, and using it masterfully. And with little Tom, he just wants to make sure that he doesn't steal anything at Hogwarts and understands that he has to follow the rules. (DD has no idea of the extent of the potential for evil in the child he's confronting.) But with the others--Umbridge, the adult Voldemort, the Dursleys--DD is simply using good manners (or enforced "courtesy" in the case of the Dursleys) to make a point that he knows will have no effect on the listeners. What good would he have accomplished if he had expressed disgust rather than disappointment in his DADA interview with Voldemort, for example? Or what would he have accomplished by being rude to the Carrows (who might have killed him on the spot instead of trying to make Draco do it)? DD was stalling for time while he waited for Snape. My guess, and it's only a guess, was that he saw potential in Snape that he didn't see in those others. I don't think that the target audience for his words was us--I, for one, was more disgusted by DD than by Snape, who was distraught and concerned only for Lily. *Of course* he didn't think to ask for protection for his old enemy and that man's unknown son, any more than Molly Weasley was thinking about the danger that Bellatrix Lestrange presented to other people's children when she yelled, "Not my daughter!" So Dumbledore took a chance and told the distraught young man that his request to spare only Lily disgusted him even though he's talking about a request made to Voldemort, not himself, and *of course* Snape would not and could not have asked him to spare his old enemy and the Prophecy Boy whose murder was the whole point of the attack on the Potter family. He wanted, IMO, to shock young Snape into realizing that the whole family was in danger and needed his protection and to see his reaction, which probably Exceeded Expectations--"Keep her--them--safe. Please"-- followed by "anything" in response to "What will you give me in return?" I think that DD sensed remorse as well as desperation in young Snape's case and took advantage of the opportunity not only to gain an extremely valuable spy but to turn a young man's life around. The "tough love" approach worked with Snape, as it would not have worked in any of those other cases. BTW, I think he does express disgust on one other occasion (Barty Crouch Jr.) and that the disgust on that occasion is more genuine and not intended to be manipulative. Carol, who doesn't like DD in that scene but thinks that he knew exactly what he was doing in psychologically manipulating young Snape From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 12 19:06:36 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 19:06:36 -0000 Subject: Prophecy (was Re: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187563 Potioncat: I don't see how either scenario makes Snape a blameless tool. It was his choice to tell LV. My point is only that there are other ways the prophecy could have played out. I would love to know the evolution of this plot line. Did JKR consider different variations until she hit on the final one? Alla: Oh of course prophecy could have played out in many different ways had JKR decided to do so, I thought you were saying that in the storyline that we have it is also assumed that no matter what as soon as Trelawney spoke the prophecy it was bound to come true. Does it make sense? It is not that I do not see different scenarios which could (and maybe they did) played out in JKR's head before she chose this one. It is just I do not see that in *this*scenario it is a given that even without Snape's involvement prophecy was bound to come true. Potioncat: Do you think that if Snape had not told LV, that the prophecy would have worked out some other way? Alla: Of course I cannot know it, but I certainly think that it is a possibility, that the prophecy would not have worked out at all. Potioncat: Like, Harry would have grown up and taken on LV? Because, I don't see any pleasant outcome if LV had vaporised himself in Godrick's Hollow. Or do you think if LV had not heard the prophecy that someone else would have been able to defeat him? Alla: Yep, I am inclined to think that your last sentence could have easily come true, I mean maybe not easily, but possibly. I mean, again I am coming from the idea that we do know about prophecies that did not come true and based on this canon fact I am speculating that the reason they did not come true is because certain conditions for that were not fulfilled. I believe that Snape's involvement was a very significant condition to come true. I could be wrong of course, but this is what I believe. As to who could have defeated Voldemort, really I have no idea. If we speculate that the prophecy remains unfulfilled, to me it means that maybe somebody else (Harry or no Harry) could have at least had a shot at doing it. Maybe they won, maybe they would have failed. But I think that Snape by delivering the prophecy put the final nail in the coffin so to speak. IMO of course. Potioncat: Again, I'm coming from the idea that once a prophecy appears in a storyline, it has to play out in some way. Alla: Absolutely, I agree that writer intends for prophecy to play out if it is in the storyline, I however not sure if I agree that if we are looking from within the story that in Potterverse especially once prophecy is spoken it is just has to come true. From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 12 22:36:04 2009 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 22:36:04 -0000 Subject: Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187564 > Julie: > In the scenes between Dumbledore and YoungAdult!Snape in > DH, I was never bothered by Snape's lack of concern for > James and Harry, for exactly the reason you outline above. > > The fact that he doesn't care also makes sense to me, as Snape > is a willing DE, so it's reasonable that his change of heart in > general wil take place over a period of time, rather than as > some sudden epiphany. Mike (after a long respite): Add me to the list of those that doesn't mind that Snape didn't or wasn't going to ask DD to save James and Harry. It would have been sooo out of character for him to have done so. Especially considering how not-so-far-removed we are from Snape's Hogwarts days and being hung upside down by James. And he's a DE at that very moment, despite his imminent change of heart about LV. Besides, Snape disgusts me enough for having joined the DEs in the first place, any other minor lack of etiquette is not going to change my opinion of him. > > Montavilla47: > > > > > > > > Of course, that's my feeling on the subject. It's pretty > > obvious that we're meant to share Dumbledore's disgust > > about Snape's indifference to James and Harry. And, > > considering Dumbledore's indifference to the hundreds > > or thousands that might have died while Harry enjoyed > > a blythe childhood at Hogwarts, that's pretty ironic. > > > > Julie: > > What bothered me was Dumbledore's response. In every other > confrontation with anyone acting on the "bad" side--Draco, > Voldemort/Tom, Lucius, Fudge, Umbridge, the Dursleys, etc-- > Dumbledore delivers his condemnations in soft-spoken tones, > using gentle admonishments to make his points and attempt > to alter behavior or attitudes. > > > I agree that Dumbledore's open disgust was intended for the > readers to share, though I think JKR could have achieved the > same while leaving Dumbledore in character. Mike: Though I don't disagree with either Zara's or Carol's take on this matter, I'm going to add my angle. I think that DD's attitude was also meant to convey his frustration and downright fear for what had been going on for lo these past 15 years or so. His order members are getting picked off one-by-one, he hasn't been able to draw a bead on Tom Riddle, other people are disappearing and/or dying, the Ministry hasn't got a clue and he doesn't trust himself to step in and run the show for them. In short, his fuse is short. I don't think DD necessarily believes in Divination and only barely tolerates those that practice it and their outputs - read, prophecies. I'm with Alla on this one, I think Sibyll's prophecy would have died on the vine had it not been acted upon. Now, here comes that little whipper-snapper Snape, the knucklehead that took that prophecy to LV and has basically caused it to be activated. Great, just what he needs at this time, a family to hide and two Order members put out of commission, like he's got a lot of 'em to spare. So, what does this guy want? Well, it's pretty obvious to me, and I think Dumbledore, that Snape is only interested in the girl. The married, with child girl, btw. Ya know, with all his troubles going on, I can see how Snape presenting him with one more woe and then asking him to only protect the wife and mother would push DD over the limit. He's just had it and he lashes out with some pent up anger and disgust at both Snape's personnage and the implication of his request. > > Julie, still not sure why JKR had Dumbledore treat Snape so > differently than he did anyone else in the books. Mike, taking a view from inside the story, wishing that DD had turned Snape into the jackass he was acting right then and there and be done with him. He could have then given jackass!Snape to the Potters and Sev would have been with his precious Lily from then on! ;) From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri Aug 14 14:22:47 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:22:47 -0000 Subject: Prophecy (was Re: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187565 > Alla: > ?? Yep, I am inclined to think that your last sentence could have easily come true, I mean maybe not easily, but possibly. I mean, again I am coming from the idea that we do know about prophecies that did not come true and based on this canon fact I am speculating that the reason they did not come true is because certain conditions for that were not fulfilled. I believe that Snape's involvement was a very significant condition to come true. I could be wrong of course, but this is what I believe. Potioncat: I've just gone back to OoP and re-read "The Department of Mysteries" and "The Lost Prophecy." Ch 34 "Tiny, yellowing labels had been stuck beneath each glass orb on the shelf. Some of them had a weird. Liquid glow; others were as dull and dark within as blown light bulbs." I don't see that we are told that any of the prophecies did not come true. There are lit orbs and dark ones throughout the room. It would seem to me that the lit orbs are prophecies still in play; and the dark ones are completed prophecies. I guess other readers could interpret it differently, but at best we're left with the unanswered question, Do all prophecies come true? BTW, I think there's a difference between a prophecy and a prediction. Alla: ?? Absolutely, I agree that writer intends for prophecy to play out if it is in the storyline, I however not sure if I agree that if we are looking from within the story that in Potterverse especially once prophecy is spoken it is just has to come true. Potioncat standing in the Potterverse: I was surprised at something DD said that I hadn't quite picked up on before. I recalled DD being dismissive of Divination, but clearly he isn't dismissing it all; he is saying he was against teaching it. "?Kthough it was against my inclination to allow the subject of Divination to continue at all. ?K I was disappointed. It seemed to me that she had not a trace of the gift herself." There seems to be a way to identify the gift of Divination, and perhaps DD didn't feel it was worth the effort to teach it to students who didn't have the gift. (Which is kind of how I feel about some high school courses.) In "The Lost Prophecy" DD tells Harry about the 'flaw in the plan' (so now I'll have to go back and see how this flaw compares to the one in DH). DD certainly believes in the prophecy. He has put off telling Harry about it, because he thinks it's too hard for a young boy to take. DD says that LV hadn't heard the whole prophecy and didn't know that attacking the child might give that child the power. So it again seems to me, that DD let Snape go, knowing LV would hear just enough to endanger himself. This is reinforced by DD's repeating comments that when he began to care about Harry he wasn't able to carry out his plan as well as he intended. This reinforces my belief that the prophecy was in play as soon as DD and Snape heard it, because in their own way both acted on it. DD does seem to indicate twice, that a prophecy can be tweaked. First he's saying the Chosen One could have been Neville--but that LV's choice determined the outcome. DD's wording is that both had parents "having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times." Second that LV's attempt to kill the child is what gave Harry the power and it might have been better for LV if he had waited. I think JKR said that if Alice had been killed trying to save Neville he would not have been protected. So I think if LV had chosen Neville and killed him, he probably would have gone after Harry too, just in case. Then we'd have the dead "extra one" and Harry still chosen. On the other hand, (imho) if LV had waited a little, he would have dismissed Neville as ever being the one with the power and would still have chosen Harry. I guess that brings us right back to the issue of whether the prophecy could have played out differently or been completely neutralized. I did get off on a tangent in earlier posts with other ways the prophecy might have been delivered. I was trying to show that the events didn't have to happen exactly as they did to still work out. (Stepping out of the Potterverse for a moment) Has anyone seen "Dogma"? Snape--I mean Metatron--has to tell the youth Jesus about his Divine roll. The angel says how painful it was to tell the boy. That plot line just seems to be echoed in the HP story and I've wondered if JKR saw the movie. It comes up again in DH when it's Snape not DD (Metatron, not god) who tells Harry. (we now return to our regularly scheduled program.) Potioncat, wondering why if Lily narrowly escaped LV three times, it's LV's 4th attempt that causes Snape to ask DD to save her. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 14 16:34:49 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 16:34:49 -0000 Subject: Prophecy (was Re: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187566 Potioncat wrpte: > I've just gone back to OoP and re-read "The Department of Mysteries" and "The Lost Prophecy." > > Ch 34 "Tiny, yellowing labels had been stuck beneath each glass orb on the shelf. Some of them had a weird. Liquid glow; others were as dull and dark within as blown light bulbs." > > I don't see that we are told that any of the prophecies did not come true. There are lit orbs and dark ones throughout the room. It would seem to me that the lit orbs are prophecies still in play; and the dark ones are completed prophecies. I guess other readers could interpret it differently, but at best we're left with the unanswered question, Do all prophecies come true? BTW, I think there's a difference between a prophecy and a prediction. Carol responds: I agree that the dark orbs are those of prophecies that have been fulfilled and that the prophecies of the lit orbs have not yet been fulfilled, but I'm not sure that the lit orbs are necessarily "in play." Quite possibly, no one acted on them (other than to speak them and hear them) and so they were never fulfilled. If, for example, Snape had not overheard part of the Prophecy and reported it to LV, and if LV hadn't chosen to try to thwart it, nothing would have happened. There would have been no Chosen One because LV would not have created him by trying to thwart the Prophecy. Similarly, if Snape had not asked LV to spare Lily and LV had not actually given Lily the choice to live ("stand aside" and let him kill Harry instead of her), her Love magic would not have been activated and Harry would have died whether Lily lived or not (just as both Neville and Alice would have died even if she tried to protect him because she would not have been given a choice to live). In any of those cases, there would have been no boy "with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" because Harry would either have died or simply been an ordinary Wizarding kid not "marked as [LV's] equal. The prophecy orb would have continued to glow, an unfulfilled prophecy, while the unvaporized LV continued his reign of terror. Conversely, had the prophecy orb not been smashed in the MoM battle in OoP, it would have gone dark at the end of DH when "the one with the power" finally vanquished the Dark Lord, and "LV] died at the hand of [Harry]"--sort of. > Potioncat standing in the Potterverse: > I was surprised at something DD said that I hadn't quite picked up on before. I recalled DD being dismissive of Divination, but clearly he isn't dismissing it all; he is saying he was against teaching it. > > "?Kthough it was against my inclination to allow the subject of Divination to continue at all. ?K I was disappointed. It seemed to me that she had not a trace of the gift herself." > > There seems to be a way to identify the gift of Divination, and perhaps DD didn't feel it was worth the effort to teach it to students who didn't have the gift. (Which is kind of how I feel about some high school courses.) Carol responds: LOL! I think he may be dismissive of the subject *as* a subject, not just of seemingly incompetent teachers (cf. McGonagall's attitude), but he certainly knows a real prophecy when he hears one, and he knew that Trelawney would need his protection or he wouldn't have hired her. (He also said in PoA that her prophecy about the Dark Lord's servant returning brought her total of real prophecies up to two.) But I agree that a contempt for Divination as a school subject does not amount to contempt for the gift of prophecy or for prophecies themselves. He knows that Harry can choose not to act on the prophecy, and he tells him so, but he also knows quite well that it *will* be fulfilled, and that only Harry can vanquish Voldemort. Otherwise, he would never have let him learn the hard way and suffer as he did. He'd have defeated LV himself, with the Order's help. (IMO.) > DD says that LV hadn't heard the whole prophecy and didn't know that attacking the child might give that child the power. So it again seems to me, that DD let Snape go, knowing LV would hear just enough to endanger himself. This is reinforced by DD's repeating comments that when he began to care about Harry he wasn't able to carry out his plan as well as he intended. This reinforces my belief that the prophecy was in play as soon as DD and Snape heard it, because in their own way both acted on it. Potioncat: > DD does seem to indicate twice, that a prophecy can be tweaked. First he's saying the Chosen One could have been Neville--but that LV's choice determined the outcome. DD's wording is that both had parents "having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times." Second that LV's attempt to kill the child is what gave Harry the power and it might have been better for LV if he had waited. > > I think JKR said that if Alice had been killed trying to save Neville he would not have been protected. So I think if LV had chosen Neville and killed him, he probably would have gone after Harry too, just in case. Then we'd have the dead "extra one" and Harry still chosen. Carol responds: Yes, but unless Lily had the choice of stepping aside and letting LV kill Harry (a choice to live or to die *instead* of Harry, which was the point of her self-sacrifice), the Love magic that protected him would never have kicked in and there would still have been no Chosen One. Both Harry and Lily would have died, just as both Neville and Alice would have died because neither Snape nor any other DE would have requested that she be spared. So "the one with the power" would never have acquired the power *unless* Snape made that request, and the prophecy would have gone unfulfilled. Potioncat > On the other hand, (imho) if LV had waited a little, he would have dismissed Neville as ever being the one with the power and would still have chosen Harry. I guess that brings us right back to the issue of whether the prophecy could have played out differently or been completely neutralized. Carol responds: But what would have protected Harry in that case? He wouldn't have been a baby whose mother could step in front of him and plead with LV to "kill [her] instead, and Snape would have seen no need to ask LV to protect Lily if LV was just going after a young man or teenage boy. So Harry not only would not have acquired the powers that enabled him to defeat LV in DH (primarily the scar connection), he would not have been protected by Love magic, either, so he would simply have been killed like everyone else that LV went after. Of course, the second part of the Prophecy ("either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives") could still have worked out the other way. If, for example, Harry had tried to kill LV instead of sacrificing himself, LV might simply have been vaporized rather than killed because of the soul bit in his forehead, or, more likely, LV's reflexes would have been quicker and Harry would actually have died along with the soul bit without activating any Love magic. Or suppose that LV had used someone else's blood to regenerate himself; Harry would have died from the AK. Or if he had killed Nagini when she attacked him at Bathilda's, the soul bit in his scar would have been the last "Horcrux" and he would have died. The Prophecy ("either must die at the hand of the other") would still have been fulfilled, but the terms "either" and "other" would refer to different people. To sum up, in case my ideas are unclear, I think that prophecies can go unfulfilled (though, of course, if one appears in a story, it will be fulfilled in one way or another) and that some of the prophecy orbs on the shelves of the MoM would never have gone dark (or will never go dark, if they remain unsmashed). The rest will be fulfilled, possibly in unexpected ways (cf. Oedipus, Macbeth, Glorfindel's "Not by the hand of man will he fall," etc.), because of the notoriously ambiguous wording of prophecies. The ones that are fulfilled (except in LOTR) will generally be those that someone attempts to thwart (or to act on, with unexpected and often disastrous results, as in the case of the king who destroyed a great army--his own--through misinterpreting a prophecy). > Potioncat, wondering why if Lily narrowly escaped LV three times, it's LV's 4th attempt that causes Snape to ask DD to save her. Carol responds: I'm guessing that he didn't know about or wasn't involved in the other attempts. In this case, he's prompted by a combination of concern for her safety and unbearable remorse because her death will be at least partly his own fault if he stands by and does nothing. (But we don't even know what "defying Voldemort three times" means. Maybe in the past, James and Lily were fighting as members of the Order against DEs rather than against LV himself. They could hardly have escaped being killed if he'd confronted them personally. Ditto for the Longbottoms, whose jobs as Aurors must have led to similar confrontations (although most of the DEs were arrested after LV's fall). Simply joining the Order should count as one act of defiance, IMO. Carol, guessing that young Snape never thought about Lily as being in danger until LV specifically targeted the Potters From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 14 21:50:03 2009 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (Mike) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 21:50:03 -0000 Subject: Prophecy (was Re: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187567 > > Potioncat wrote: > > > > I don't see that we are told that any of the prophecies > > did not come true. > > Carol responds: > I agree ... but I'm not sure that the lit orbs are necessarily > "in play." Quite possibly, no one acted on them (other than to > speak them and hear them) and so they were never fulfilled. > Mike pipes in: I don't have the books to hand, but in HBP doesn't Dumbledore during the discussion of Horcruxes mention prophecies and say something along the lines of, 'you don't think all the prophecies in the Hall of Prophecies have been fulfilled?' I figured that Dumbledore thought there were true prophecies, some bogus prophecies, and some that fell in the middle somewhere. Prophecies that *could* come true if the proper circumstances arose - like in this case, with all of the inputs by all of the actors - but that would most likely not come true without a lot of help. I guess I'm thinking like you are, Carol, that those prophecies that speak of some action require that action to activate them. I'd imagine that some of those dark orbs are prophecies that weren't acted upon and were time limited. When the required action didn't take place in time, the prophecy died. For instance, let's say that Lily is killed in action before giving birth to Harry, the prophecy goes on hiatus at least. Then Dumbledore figures out the Horcrux thingee and eliminates them and Voldemort before a new chosen one is born. That prophecy dies unfulfilled. > > > > Potioncat > > On the other hand, (imho) if LV had waited a little, he would > have dismissed Neville as ever being the one with the power and > would still have chosen Harry. I guess that brings us right back > to the issue of whether the prophecy could have played out > differently or been completely neutralized. > > Carol responds: > But what would have protected Harry in that case? He wouldn't have > been a baby whose mother could step in front of him and plead with > LV to "kill [her] instead, > So Harry not only would not have acquired the powers that enabled > him to defeat LV Mike: IMHO, if the prophecy does not play out as it was intended/foretold, then the prophecy dies. IOW, we needed all of the actors here, we needed Snape asking LV to spare Lily, we needed Lily unwilling to step aside, we even needed Dumbledore allowing Snape to go to LV with the partial prophecy. Without everything coming together as it was, then, like you said Carol, Harry doesn't get the "power the dark lord knows not" and that's it for the prophecy. It's as null and void as a box of poorly wrapped china in the hands of the post office. > Carol responds: > > Of course, the second part of the Prophecy ("either must die at > the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other > survives") could still have worked out the other way. Mike: Well, I'm not sure which of the first part of the prophecy you are saying didn't happen in your above conditional clause. For my part, I'd say that if Harry never acquires "the power" then the prophecy at the very least no longer applies to him. That's if it's not completely dead, as I believe Harry would've been if he had *not* acquired the power. > > Potioncat, wondering why if Lily narrowly escaped LV three > > times, it's LV's 4th attempt that causes Snape to ask DD to > > save her. > > > > Carol, guessing that young Snape never thought about Lily as > being in danger until LV specifically targeted the Potters Mike: Now I'm wondering if some of those narrow escapes happened before James and Lily tied the knot? Also wondering how bad Snape wanted Lily before she was married off. Forbidden fruit, you know. Maybe young Snape still thought it possible that Miss Evans would join him, all evidence to the contrary, as much as young Sev thought Lily could be in Slytherin, all evidence to the contrary. Mike, thinking prophecies are like chicken eggs: Easily broken - nothing happens Many ungerminated - bogus, never will happen Requiring all the right conditions to turn them into Basilisks From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 15 04:01:47 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 04:01:47 -0000 Subject: Prophecy (was Re: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187568 Mike wrote: > I guess I'm thinking like you are, Carol, that those prophecies that speak of some action require that action to activate them. I'd imagine that some of those dark orbs are prophecies that weren't acted upon and were time limited. When the required action didn't take place in time, the prophecy died. For instance, let's say that Lily is killed in action before giving birth to Harry, the prophecy goes on hiatus at least. Then Dumbledore figures out the Horcrux thingee and eliminates them and Voldemort before a new chosen one is born. That prophecy dies unfulfilled. > Mike: > IMHO, if the prophecy does not play out as it was intended/foretold, then the prophecy dies. IOW, we needed all of the actors here, we needed Snape asking LV to spare Lily, we needed Lily unwilling to step aside, we even needed Dumbledore allowing Snape to go to LV with the partial prophecy. Without everything coming together as it was, then, like you said Carol, Harry doesn't get the "power the dark lord knows not" and that's it for the prophecy. It's as null and void as a box of poorly wrapped china in the hands of the post office. Carol responds: Well, I was thinking that the dark ones had been fulfilled, but your idea that some die unfulfilled is plausible, too. Either way, though, the ones that are still active or still have a chance to be activated are the ones that are glowing--quite a large number, apparently, and I would guess that some have been around for centuries. At any rate, the Harry/Voldie prophecy is still in the active phase, partially but not completely fulfilled. Carol earlier: > > Of course, the second part of the Prophecy ("either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives") could still have worked out the other way. > > Mike: > Well, I'm not sure which of the first part of the prophecy you are saying didn't happen in your above conditional clause. For my part, I'd say that if Harry never acquires "the power" then the prophecy at the very least no longer applies to him. That's if it's not completely dead, as I believe Harry would've been if he had *not* acquired the power. Carol responds: Sorry to be unclear. What I meant is that, as Dumbledore says in OoP, the Prophecy clearly does refer to Harry. While the part about the boy born at the end of July to parents who have thrice defied the Dark Lord could also have applied to Neville (and theoretically to some other person born in some other July), the part about being "marked as his equal" clearly indicates Harry, marked with the lightning scar that gives him some of Voldemort's own powers, Parseltongue and a link to Voldemort's mind, which I suppose could be considered a very specialized and powerful form of Legilimency. Certainly, it enables him to understand Voldemort as almost no one except Dumbledore can. And Lily's self-sacrifice has given Harry "the power that the Dark Lord knows not," or at least the example of how that power is acquired, which he applies when he chooses to sacrifice himself, not knowing that, unlike his mother, he'll survive. So, as I interpret it, the only part of the Prophecy left unfulfilled is the part I quoted earlier, "Either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives. At the time that Harry hears the Prophecy, just after the orb is smashed, we know who the two participants are, "either" of whom could die at the hand of the "other." We just don't know which will die or how it will happen until that final confrontation in DH. Of course, it's possible that the Prophecy could have remained unfulfilled even though parts of it had already come true, notably Harry being "marked" by Voldemort, if, for example, Harry hadn't had that shared drop of blood and had been killed by Nagini. So the fulfillment of the Prophecy wasn't inevitable, but it was in the active phase and on its way to being fulfilled, barring literally unforeseen circumstances (such as Harry's death or someone else finding and destroying the Horcruxes). Once Harry and Voldemort met for the last time, one of them was going to die. There could be no other outcome (unless they both died), "for neither can live while the other survives." IOW, it was a real prophecy. The only question, once it was put into play and the Chosen One "marked," was not whether but when and how it would be fulfilled. Carol, who needs to go watch "Monk" now and is signing off :-) From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 16 16:59:16 2009 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 16 Aug 2009 16:59:16 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/16/2009, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1250441956.509.12245.m7@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187569 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 16, 2009 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2009 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From catlady at wicca.net Mon Aug 17 01:58:38 2009 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 01:58:38 -0000 Subject: Prophecy what-ifs. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187570 Susan Curcio wrote in : << Let's just say Lily lived for some reason (LV fulfilled Snape's request?). >> Potioncat replied in : << I'm not sure how the story would continue, because Harry is the one with the power--so if LV did kill him---what's next? Does some other one with power come along later? >> Probably. Those Prophecies are real tricksters, often turning out to mean something other than what one thought. << At any rate, I don't see Snape continuing as a loyal DE >> Why not? As Carol said "All he wanted at that point was for Lily to live." I wanted Snape to have switched to DD's side because of a moral decision that all this killing and destruction was just wrong, even if the moral decision was crystallized only by his pain about the threat to Lily leading him to think that the pain other people felt about losing their loved ones was also important, but that's not how Rowling wrote him. Julie wrote in : << Except for with Snape here, where he expresses extreme disgust rather than using his typical method (for instance, Snape: "You must save Lily!!" Dumbledore: "And I assume it will be all right with you if I include her husband and son under my protection? Or shall I abandon the family she loves to your master's amusement?" Snape, sputtering: "I didn't--I--yes, yes, save them all!") >> I agree with you about Dumbledore. Poor Snape's thought processes, the ones summarized by that sputter: 1. Potter and his baby are a threat to my master! They need to be eliminated! Besides, Potter is vile. 2. Dumbledore *likes* threats to my master, so the above would not be a useful thing to say to him. 3. I just need him to save Lily, regardless of the cost. If part of the cost is saving vile Potter and his baby, thus endangering my master, so be it. 4. It would please Dumbledore if I asked him to save Potter and his baby as well as Lily. Maybe pleasing Dumbledore will increase the chance of him doing what I request. I might have had him stop at 3 instead of continuing on to 4, thus sputtering: "I didn't [want you to save them] -- I [want to serve my master as well as protect Lily] -- I want you to do whatever it takes to save Lily, whether that is saving all of them or leaving her family unprotected." Potioncat wrote in : <<[I'm] wondering why if Lily narrowly escaped LV three times, it's LV's 4th attempt that causes Snape to ask DD to save her. >> The Prophecy said she defied him three times, not that each defiance was a narrow escape from death. From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon Aug 17 16:05:48 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 16:05:48 -0000 Subject: Prophecy what-ifs. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187571 > Potioncat wrote in : > > <<[I'm] wondering why if Lily narrowly escaped LV three times, it's LV's 4th attempt that causes Snape to ask DD to save her. >> > Catlady: > The Prophecy said she defied him three times, not that each defiance was a narrow escape from death. Potioncat: "Narrowly escaped" is DD's words, not mine. When he was explaining that the prophecy could mean 2 boys he said both had a set of parents "having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times." Now, to my mind "defied" and "narrowly escaped" does not mean the same thing. On the other hand, it could be correctly said that Harry defied LV in the graveyard or that Harry narrowly escaped LV in the graveyard. So I guess it works. The only thing that makes any sense to me is that Snape did not know Lily was part of the Order until the moment that LV targeted the Potters directly. From juli17 at aol.com Mon Aug 17 19:12:44 2009 From: juli17 at aol.com (julie) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 19:12:44 -0000 Subject: Prophecy what-ifs. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187572 Catlady wrote: > > I agree with you about Dumbledore. > > Poor Snape's thought processes, the ones summarized by that sputter: > 1. Potter and his baby are a threat to my master! They need to be eliminated! Besides, Potter is vile. > 2. Dumbledore *likes* threats to my master, so the above would not be a useful thing to say to him. > 3. I just need him to save Lily, regardless of the cost. If part of the cost is saving vile Potter and his baby, thus endangering my master, so be it. > 4. It would please Dumbledore if I asked him to save Potter and his baby as well as Lily. Maybe pleasing Dumbledore will increase the chance of him doing what I request. > > I might have had him stop at 3 instead of continuing on to 4, thus sputtering: "I didn't [want you to save them] -- I [want to serve my master as well as protect Lily] -- I want you to do whatever it takes to save Lily, whether that is saving all of them or leaving her family unprotected." > Julie: I don't agree with #1, as I'm not sure Snape believed the Prophecy. I don't see him thinking that this baby is really a threat to Voldemort. I think he understands that Voldemort is paranoid and isn't going to take any chances, and under other circumstances he would have just accepted that and not protested the death of anyone Voldemort considered his enemy, even if it was a mere baby. (That's bad enough, I should think.) I think it's more likely that #1 is Snape trying to reason Voldemort out of taking the Prophecy seriously--"You are far more powerful than any wizard, my Lord, particularly some spawn of a Blood traitor and his Mudblood wife." #2 stands as is, and #3 (though again, I doubt Snape sees the Potter baby as a real danger to Voldemort). And #4 to me would be "I don't care if they are saved..." rather than "I didn't want you to save them" as I don't think Snape is actively interested in killing babies and children, even a Potter child, in the way the Voldemort is. I think Snape just turned a blind eye, considering any "innocents" mere casualties of war who weren't his problem. (Maybe they should have thought to be born to different parents!). It does seem Snape never actually killed anyone during his DE days (Bellatrix mentions him "slithering" out of certain activities), which is hardly a commendation as he was perfectly willing for his Lord's enemies to be killed at the hands of others. But that fact may have indicated that Snape, like Draco, hadn't completely succumbed to his evil side. Enough that wanting to save Lily would lead to a progressive change of heart over the years from valuing only the life of someone he loved to valuing innocent lives in general, and from seeing Voldemort as someone who would reward his subservience with the power and respect he craved, to seeing Voldemort as an evil megalomaniac who was only interested in achieving his own ends at the price of destroying the Wizarding World. Julie From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 18 13:46:25 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 13:46:25 -0000 Subject: Prophecy what-ifs. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187573 > > Potioncat wrote in : > > > > <<[I'm] wondering why if Lily narrowly escaped LV three times, it's LV's 4th attempt that causes Snape to ask DD to save her. >> > > Catlady: > > The Prophecy said she defied him three times, not that each defiance was a narrow escape from death. > > Potioncat: > "Narrowly escaped" is DD's words, not mine. When he was explaining that the prophecy could mean 2 boys he said both had a set of parents "having narrowly escaped Voldemort three times." > The only thing that makes any sense to me is that Snape did not know Lily was part of the Order until the moment that LV targeted the Potters directly. Pippin: Hagrid speaks as if everyone knew that James and Lily were close allies of Dumbledore. Maybe Voldemort had James and Lily cornered more than once but let them go -- to carry a message, or because they were Peter's best source of info on DD, or because he was still publicly pretending not to be a killer, or he wished for some manipulative reason to appear merciful. They would still be narrow escapes. Even though Dumbledore (and Snape) knew the Potters were in harm's way already, it would be shocking, horrifying news to hear someone so important to you was marked for murder. In defense of Dumbledore's reaction, that's not something to be twinkly about. Do you suppose Snape was the first person who ever sat in that chair and begged Dumbledore to save someone? What do you suppose Dumbledore told them? Probably what he told Harry in OOP, that his most complex and powerful charms were unlikely to be invicible against Voldemort's full power. Dumbledore knew he couldn't do much to save the Potters, but at least Snape's service might help the WW in general -- so it was probably very important to extract that plea to "save them all" in exchange for it. Pippin From hpfgu.elves at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 01:25:57 2009 From: hpfgu.elves at gmail.com (hpfgu_elves) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 01:25:57 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Greetings from Hexquarters! Revisiting the Past. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187574 Greetings from Hexquarters! *Alika smiles hesitantly* Pardon the interruption, sirs and madams, but I is here to announce "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" chapter discussions. The prospect of so much work for such a long time is most exciting! One chapter will be scheduled every week, consisting of a summary and questions designed to kick-start the discussion. In contrast to past discussions, We would encourage leaders to do a very short summary/list of happenings, and concentrate on the questions about the chapter. To indicate your interest, please email HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space) and indicate your preference for a particular chapter or a particular time frame. Because knowing who we can turn to in cases of last-minute need is very helpful, we are also taking names of volunteers who are willing to be on standby. If we will get enough volunteers to actually make chapter discussions happen, we are planning to start in September with discussion of "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone", Chapter 1: The Boy Who Lived , with subsequent installments coming every two weeks after that. We're looking forward to hearing from HPfGUers who are interested in leading SS/PS chapter discussions! :) Alika Elf, for the HPfGU List Admin Team Reminder: Please do not post questions arising from this ADMIN onlist. Email the List Elves offlist at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space) instead. Thank you. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed Aug 19 02:35:01 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 02:35:01 -0000 Subject: Prophecy (was Re: What would Snape have done if Lily had lived? (Was: Mothers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187575 > > Mike: > IMHO, if the prophecy does not play out as it was intended/foretold, then the prophecy dies. IOW, we needed all of the actors here, we needed Snape asking LV to spare Lily, we needed Lily unwilling to step aside, we even needed Dumbledore allowing Snape to go to LV with the partial prophecy. Without everything coming together as it was, then, like you said Carol, Harry doesn't get the "power the dark lord knows not" and that's it for the prophecy. It's as null and void as a box of poorly wrapped china in the hands of the post office. Potioncat: (Hi Mike, good to see you posting!) Scenario 3 (or whatever) Snape over hears and tells LV. LV waits a few years before taking action. Longbottom family is worried Neville is a Squib. Potter family is chasing Harry down the street on his broom and undoing accidental magic. LV makes his choice and targets Potters. Snape asks for Lily and goes to DD. LV attacks little Harry. Lily refuses to step aside and things progress as before. Only LV was around a few more years. It could work, but the way it did happen is better. The more I think of it, recalling myths with prophecies, the magic of the prophecy if you will, seems to include the necessary ingredients at the telling. Parents learn the baby will grow up to kill his father and marry his mother so they leave him out to die. He grows up unaware that he is not the biological child of his adoptive parents. When he is of age, he learns that he will kill his father and marry his mother, so he leaves to protect them. He travels to a far land, kills his unknown father and marries his unknown mother. So some magic works to have everything in place for the prophecy to be fulfilled. I think DD's actions are just as important as those of Snape, LV and Trelawney--from the standpoint of the prophecy. I'm not really contradicting myself. I still think the prophecy can be fulfilled in a few alternate ways, sticking closely to canon. But the way it did work seems the best way. From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 20 22:33:25 2009 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (mcrudele78) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:33:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and the psychic magic (was: Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187576 > Potioncat: > (Hi Mike, good to see you posting!) Mike: Thanks, PC :) > Potioncat: > Scenario 3 (or whatever) Snape over hears and tells LV. LV waits a few years before taking action. Longbottom family is worried Neville is a Squib. Potter family is chasing Harry down the street on his broom and undoing accidental magic. LV makes his choice and targets Potters. Snape asks for Lily and goes to DD. LV attacks little Harry. Lily refuses to step aside and things progress as before. Only LV was around a few more years. > > It could work, but the way it did happen is better. Mike: Really, PC, you put in all the elements in your Scenario 3 (I think it was around scenario 16 when you count the whole list). So, yeah it could've worked that way, and yeah I like the way JKR did it better. > Potioncat: > > So some magic works to have everything in place for the prophecy to be fulfilled. I think DD's actions are just as important as those of Snape, LV and Trelawney--from the standpoint of the prophecy. Mike: Piggybacking on your DD reference, I got me a question to pose. I'm going to start with the assumption that prophecies and all those other psychic phenomena that Sibyll and her ilk practiced are forms of magic. They are elementarily explainable in the WW, but Muggles don't understand them and mostly don't believe in them. You (generic you) are free to make a different or contradictory assumption. My question: How much stock does Dumbledore put in this kind of magic? I ask this because DD seems disdainful of Sibyll throughout the series (at least to me he does). I'm not sure how much of that is due to his opinion of that branch of magic (remember, he said he was considering dropping the subject at Hogwarts), and how much of it was due to his lack of confidence in Sibyll's abilities. And I have no proof of my supposition, it just seemed to me that DD's general tenor towards Sibyll was of part exasperration and part unbelieving. Which brings me to the second part of this question; though DD certainly believed that The Prophecy was a working and true prophecy, he also seems to think that Harry could've ignored the prophecy and stop playing by its rules. Granted, LV wasn't going to ignore it completely, but LV was acting out the remainder of the prophecy in the blind, he didn't hear the second part. What I'm getting at is that though DD says that Sibyll has two (2) true prophetic utterances under her belt ( this one and the one about Peter), he acts as if the players in the prophecy aren't bound by it, aren't bound by the magic of it. So does DD believe it takes magic to make a prophecy and that's as far as the magic goes, that the prophecy could be true and still be thwarted by the actions of the players, or that the prophecy, if true, emparts a magic of it's own to ensure it becomes fulfilled in some way, shape, or form? Remember, I'm asking what DD believed, not what you believe, though if you want to throw in your opinion of how prophecies function in the Potterverse, far be it from me to tell you to do otherwise. I thank you for your support. Mike, offering 2 bonus points to whomever remembers what product's commercials were ended by that (slightly paraphrased) tag line? ;) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 21 01:02:16 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:02:16 -0000 Subject: DH reread CH 32-33 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187577 Okay, well there are two times in this book when I could almost pity Snape, almost. "Look at me" could have been one (if Snape would have acknowledged as I said in the past I was wrong Potter, you are not your father, as it is it is almost but not quite :)). I will tell you about second time later on. Besides that part nothing really jumped at me in Elder wand. No, I did not find Snape's death to be fun to reread, but when it was done, was still satisfied. Hm, Prince memories, I really do not know whom I despised more in this chapter - Snape or Dumbledore, but they were close contenders for sure. Why I despised Snape you already know, but also when I reread this chapter, I got even more convinced that Snape got his worldviews at this age already and that he was fully aware that muggleborns are considered second rate people in WW. It is just, I don't know, besides his hesitation when he responds to Lily, it is this quote : "It's real for us," said Snape. "Not for her. But we'll get the letter, you and me" "Really?" whispered Lily. "Definitely," said Snape, and even with his poorly cut hair and his odd clothes, he struck an oddly impressive figure sprawled in front of her, brimful of confidence in his destiny" Now before anybody says so, I know there is nothing in this quote that states it, it is just how to explain my inference? It is all together - Snape's hesitation, Snape's saying Petunia just a muggle and this, this just confirms what I thought of character - somebody who is super confident of himself and his views. And Dumbledore? GRRRRRRRR. "You gave me your word, Severus. And while we are talking about services you owe me, I thought you agreed to keep an eye on our young Slytherin friend?" I mean, really Dumbledore? Really? After more than a decade of slaving for you he still **owes** you something? So that night you were signing him up for life long slavery for the light? Gotcha. And of course Dumbledore deciding whose soul could be ripped and whose can't be. Ugh. Although at this moment I am convinced fairly well that Dumbledore had a pretty good idea that Harry may survive, which can change of course, my conviction that is :-) He keeps his eyes close for way too long during that conversation if you ask me :-) So, maybe at least I will lay off the charge of him being Harry's murderer, we shall see :) JMO, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 21 01:11:37 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 01:11:37 -0000 Subject: DH reread CH 33 part 2 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187578 It is only one quote, but I figured it will be not on Snape, so I will put it here :-) "I speak now, Harry Potter, directly to you. You have permitted your friends die rather than face me yourself." Alla: Okay, I am sure I mentioned before that if I were to list JKR's shortcomings in these series, I would put Voldemort all together somewhere on the top of the list. I mean, he works for me as evil psychopath of course, it is the brilliant, talented, charming wizard whom I cannot see, somebody who knows how to recruit followers and what makes people tick, etc. But this quote actually shows a glimpse of that person to me, somebody who knows what makes people tick. I mean, I thought it was super astute, just hit Harry where it hurts him the most - guilt of not able to do his saving people thing. Very nice Voldie, sometimes you can not be an idiot. From bart at moosewise.com Fri Aug 21 03:43:56 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 23:43:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore and the psychic magic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A8E17FC.20605@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187579 mcrudele78 wrote: > My question: How much stock does Dumbledore put in this kind of magic? > Bart (no relation): Hi, guys, I'm back! Here's my take: let's say that prophecy worked. There are two possibilities. The first is that the future is predetermined and fixed. In which case, prophecy is worthless, because it doesn't help us. The second, which Alby heartily endorses (and is one of the major themes of the books) is that we all have choices. Given that, a prophecy, once given, invalidates itself, because it creates information that did not exist before the prophecy was given. Which makes it, at best, very inexact and, at worst, self-fulfilling. Therefore, even if Divination is a valid form of magic in the Potterverse, Alby probalby doesn't place much store in it. Morty, on the other hand, is a control freak, and therefore probably puts far too much store in it. Bart From bart at moosewise.com Fri Aug 21 03:58:42 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 23:58:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] DH reread CH 32-33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A8E1B72.4020404@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187580 dumbledore11214 wrote: > Okay, well there are two times in this book when I could almost pity Snape, almost. "Look at me" could have been one (if Snape would have acknowledged as I said in the past I was wrong Potter, you are not your father, as it is it is almost but not quite :)). I've just finished re-reading the entire series from the first book to the last. And I must admit that DH comes off much better on re-reading in that context. I think that a major theme of the novels is that not everything is what it seems to be; here, in particular, we see that Sevvy is not entirely evil, and Alby is not entirely good. One might even say that Jim and Snuffles had a large hand in pushing Sevvy into the ranks of the Death Eaters. From all appearances, Sevvy is close to Alby and Morty in his magical skills and knowledge. I think I've mentioned this before, here, but if I did, it was several years ago, so I'll say it again. A noted religious philosopher was in town for a conference. He was with a companion, looking outside the window. He noticed several young men stripping a car. He noted to his friend that, although what the young men were doing was wrong, he had to admire the skill and coordination that the young men had, practically as if it were poetry. Then, he exclaimed, "Hey wait a minute! That's MY car!" I suspect that this is what happened to Sevvy. He never saw what Morty and the Death Eaters were doing as right or wrong; he just looked at it as these were people who appreciated his skills and knowledge, and made him feel useful and wanted. Until it became personal. And even then, the reason why Alby was so disgusted with him was that, after realizing that he was on the wrong side, it was still because it was personal, and not because of any realization of right and wrong. Only with time did Sevvy realize the difference; that Lily was right, and that is why his worst memory was, when he had to choose between Lily and the Death Eaters, he chose the Death Eaters. When he came to Alby to protect Lily. He stayed with Alby after Lily's death because he knew it was the right thing to do. Bart From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 21 14:10:06 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:10:06 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and the psychic magic (was: Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187581 Mike: > My question: How much stock does Dumbledore put in this kind of magic? > So does DD believe it takes magic to make a prophecy and that's as far as the magic goes, that the prophecy could be true and still be thwarted by the actions of the players, or that the prophecy, if true, emparts a magic of it's own to ensure it becomes fulfilled in some way, shape, or form? Pippin: I think Dumbledore believes there is a rare but genuine magical power of divination. Those gifted with that power can make predictions that they could not produce of their own knowledge or even sometimes of their own accord. Such predictions can be tremendously powerful. But Dumbledore considers the power to be inspirational rather than prescriptive. Prophecies don't have any power to make themselves come true, though some people believe they do and act accordingly. No event becomes inevitable simply because it was magically foretold, in Dumbledore's opinion, but it may become inevitable because people disregard their other options, whether in response to a prophecy or not. Voldemort could have ignored the prophecy, or decided that it referred to Neville rather than Harry, or that its subject could not yet be determined. The prophecy had no magical power to make Voldemort believe that Harry would be the one with the power to vanquish him. It was entirely Voldemort's choice to believe that, and, yet, according to Dumbledore, if he hadn't believed it, Harry would never have acquired that power. Pettigrew was unaware of Trelawney's second prediction, yet he fulfilled it. He made the choice to return to Voldemort, though he could have let himself be taken to the castle or tried to find another hiding place. He considered those choices unviable because of his character and experiences, not because of Trelawney's magic. Pippin From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 21 15:58:44 2009 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (mcrudele78) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:58:44 -0000 Subject: DH reread CH 30 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187582 > > Alla: > > Flitwick strengthens the Hogwarts protective charms here, yes? > > > Carol responds: > > What *I* don't understand is why he would need to provide > additional spells when Hogwarts is protected, according to Snape, > by all sorts of ancient spells (which have, till now, prevented > any deaths in Hogwarts or its grounds other than Moaning Myrtle's) > Mike, responding to a really old thread: I don't think Flitwick was conjuring *defensive* spells (or protective spells, if you will), I thought Flitwick was going offensive. It seemed to me that he was putting spells out there that would attack the DEs not merely repel them. I admit myself disappointed in the handling of Flitwick. With him being set up as a dueling champion of yore (admittedly, a student rumor in CoS) and expecting any Hogwarts professor to be a reasonably powerful wizard, I was expecting to see more out of Flitwick. In this scene he seems to be conjuring the forces of nature, but nothing seems to come of it. You just knew McGonnagall's desks were going to get into the fight, but where did we see Flitwick's wind topple a giant, say? Not having the books to hand, were we told that Moaning Myrtle was the first and only death at Hogwarts since its formation? This seems a little far-fetched, especially considering when Hogwarts began there must have been a lot of experimenting and uncontrolled magic floating around the WW. Mike, who finally got his home internet back last night but will be re-starting school Aug 31, ack! From lkotur at yahoo.com Fri Aug 21 16:42:13 2009 From: lkotur at yahoo.com (lkotur) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:42:13 -0000 Subject: Some Random Thought on Books 1 - 6 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187583 After seeing the film HP&THBP, I decided to re-read the entire saga of Harry Potter. It's been 2 weeks and I just finished book 6. Of course, knowing the outcome of the saga, I felt different about the one of the characters than I did in the initial reading. Starting with Professor Dumbledore, I always thought his legend was "bigger" than his abilities. In Goblet of Fire, you see a bit of Dumbledore's "power" when he bursts through Professor Moody's door and Harry noticed something "different" about Dumbledore. In Order of the Phoenix, when Dumbdore states, "That there may be a bit of a problem", and "go quietly", I actually shouted, "YES!!!" as the smoke in the room cleared. A plus was when Tom Riddle and Professor Dumbledore "played" to a draw in the MOM. Then as I read Half Blood Prince, I realized that Dumbledore really was as "big" as his reputation and legend. I got the same feeling about him in this re-read. In the end Dumbledore was quite exceptional. Snape, I mean Professor Snape, gave me an entirely different perception. In the original read I was hoping that Professor Snape turned out to be a good guy, but I thought the chances were quite slim. During the re-read, I felt that he did not hate Harry at all. He was doing what needed to be done to prepare Harry like the "fatted calf" for the slaughter. Even at the end of The Half Blood Prince when Professor Snape yells at Harry, "Close your mind, Potter!" he was teaching and warning Harry, a fact that I did not pick up on in the initial read. Deathly Hallows is up next and I remember in the Pensive with Professor Snape's memories, Harry can see that Professor Snape was concerned for Harry and the eventual meeting with Voldermort. Harry, Ron, and Hermione basically stir up the same thoughts and emotions as in the initial read, although I thought Hermione is a little bit annoying. It has been such a pleasure re-reading these books, and the author really did spin one heck of an entertaining tale. Larry From bart at moosewise.com Fri Aug 21 20:41:03 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:41:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Some Random Thought on Books 1 - 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A8F065F.3080706@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187584 lkotur wrote: > Even at the end of The Half Blood Prince when Professor Snape yells at Harry, "Close your mind, Potter!" he was teaching and warning Harry, a fact that I did not pick up on in the initial read. Bart: Strangely enough, in between HBP and DH in this group, this was one of my two biggest pieces of evidence in my support of the the "Dumbledore's Man" Snape (I'll have to refamiliarize myself with the abbreviations), the other being sending the OOP's to the battle of the Ministry. I was a LOLIPOPS supporter, but did not pick up on the possibility that Sev's feelings were ever requited (although others here did realize that Sev was Aunt Petunia's "awful boy"). Bart From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 22 00:19:22 2009 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (mcrudele78) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 00:19:22 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and the psychic magic In-Reply-To: <4A8E17FC.20605@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187585 > Bart: > Hi, guys, I'm back! Mike: Welcome back, Bart! > Bart: > > Given that, a prophecy, once given, invalidates itself, because > it creates information that did not exist before the prophecy was > given. Which makes it, at best, very inexact and, at worst, > self-fulfilling. Mike: I followed you right up till here. I'm not getting why a prophecy invalidates itself because it creates new information? What if the expected participants in the prophecy aren't the ones to receive the new information? Voldemort only knew part of the prophecy, and Harry participated in most of the prophecy without knowing it at all. Pettigrew, Snape, Black and Lupin knew nothing of Sibyll's second, only Harry heard it and he didn't know what was going on. See where I'm going here? I agree with you that prophecies seem to be always inexact, which I suppose is one reason why those in that business can usually claimed them to be fulfilled. But isn't self-fulfilling part of the phenomena of prophesies? In most literature, isn't self-fulfillment part of what the prophecy counts on? I know Oedipus was not, but most of them do use that element, imho. > Pippin: > > But Dumbledore considers the power to be inspirational rather > than prescriptive. Prophecies don't have any power to make > themselves come true, though some people believe they do and > act accordingly. No event becomes inevitable simply because > it was magically foretold, in Dumbledore's opinion, but it may > become inevitable because people disregard their other options, > whether in response to a prophecy or not. Mike: But isn't that the same thing as saying that Dumbledore doesn't believe in prophecies? I'll try to explain my thinking here; if prophecies are worded vaguely, which they all usually are, and if Dumbledore believes they are only inspirational, which would require the participants to be aware of the prophecy for it to provide any inspiration, well,... it seems that prophecies are useless utterances to Dumbledore. They have no power, they aren't very specific, and they can be thwarted by the expected participants if they simply ignore them. Am I wrong in interpreting your take on Dumbledore's valuation of this form of *magic*? Mike, starting to return to his original interpretation of Dumbledore's belief that prophecies are no more powerful than really good propeganda. And that they may be delivered through some magical means, but that doesn't make the prophecy itself magical. From bart at moosewise.com Sat Aug 22 01:00:07 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:00:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore and the psychic magic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A8F4317.7010702@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187586 Mike: > I followed you right up till here. I'm not getting why a prophecy invalidates itself because it creates new information? What if the expected participants in the prophecy aren't the ones to receive the new information? Voldemort only knew part of the prophecy, and Harry participated in most of the prophecy without knowing it at all. Pettigrew, Snape, Black and Lupin knew nothing of Sibyll's second, only Harry heard it and he didn't know what was going on. See where I'm going here? > Bart: Well, Harry got it, and chose not to act on it. Choice was still active. Did you notice in, I think it was HBP, when Cooking Sherry is reading cards, gets it dead right, and then chooses to ignore it? Mike: > I agree with you that prophecies seem to be always inexact, which I suppose is one reason why those in that business can usually claimed them to be fulfilled. But isn't self-fulfilling part of the phenomena of prophesies? In most literature, isn't self-fulfillment part of what the prophecy counts on? I know Oedipus was not, but most of them do use that element, imho. > Bart: That's the Greek point of view; Rowling writes from more of a Judeo-Christian point of view, in sort of a High Anglican way. Consider the story of Jonah; prophecy, in this tradition, exists to give people the opportunity to do the right thing. And it doesn't matter what the consequences are, because if you don't do the right thing, the consequences are worse. >> Bart: >> But Dumbledore considers the power to be inspirational rather >> than prescriptive. Prophecies don't have any power to make >> themselves come true, though some people believe they do and >> act accordingly. No event becomes inevitable simply because >> it was magically foretold, in Dumbledore's opinion, but it may >> become inevitable because people disregard their other options, >> whether in response to a prophecy or not. >> > > Mike: > But isn't that the same thing as saying that Dumbledore doesn't believe in prophecies? I'll try to explain my thinking here; if prophecies are worded vaguely, which they all usually are, and if Dumbledore believes they are only inspirational, which would require the participants to be aware of the prophecy for it to provide any inspiration, well,... it seems that prophecies are useless utterances to Dumbledore. They have no power, they aren't very specific, and they can be thwarted by the expected participants if they simply ignore them. > Bart: Consider the future to be a constantly changing tapestry. Choice is what does the changing. The prophecy is a photograph of the future at the moment of the prophecy; it says what would have happened if the prophecy had not been made. It may still happen, or there is an opportunity to change it. If you believe in predestination, then you believe you can't change it. If you believe in choice, then you believe you can, if you wish. Bart [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Aug 22 15:25:25 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 15:25:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and the psychic magic (was: Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187587 > Mike: ?? Really, PC, you put in all the elements in your Scenario 3 (I think it was around scenario 16 when you count the whole list). So, yeah it could've worked that way, and yeah I like the way JKR did it better. Potioncat: I've worked out a way the prophecy could work with only DD hearing it. Neither Snape nor LV would need to know about it before Godrick's Hollow, although some steps would be the same. It would happen like this ----hey, where did everybody go? > Mike > ?? My question: How much stock does Dumbledore put in this kind of magic? Potioncat: I think he considered it a valid form of magic. I'm clipping this from an earlier post: > > "Although it was against my inclination to allow the subject of Divination to continue at all. -- I was disappointed. It seemed to me that she had not a trace of the gift herself."< (OoP, I think) So it seems he accepts the magic and those who have the gift, but doesn't think she has it. He was really avoiding her in HBP. I thought at first that he didn't want to risk hearing a valid prophecy that might influence his behavior. However, it's more likely he was busy and didn't want to put up with her doom-and-gloom forecasts. > Mike: ?? . What I'm getting at is that though DD says that Sibyll has two (2) true prophetic utterances under her belt ( this one and the one about Peter), he acts as if the players in the prophecy aren't bound by it, aren't bound by the magic of it. Potioncat: We just don't know the magic behind prophecies. While we can come up with "what ifs" we just don't know what the forces are. This is what I think DD thinks. A prophecy has powers, but the individual is not bound to behave in a certain way. Complicating it all, an individual can't really know which of his actions will support the prophecy's outcome.--or if the individual really understands the predicted outcome. Certainly, DD seemed to believe that once LV acted on the prophecy, that certain outcomes were determined. In the same sense that once you start taking a medicine certain out comes are expected--but not guaranteed. I (Potioncat) believe that there is magic in a prophecy that will improve the likelihood of its happening. Whether it is that the right people hear the prophecy, or that it influences a certain response from someone. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 22 17:05:32 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 17:05:32 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and the psychic magic (was: Prophecy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187588 Potioncat wrote: > I think he considered it a valid form of magic. I'm clipping this from an earlier post: > > > > "Although it was against my inclination to allow the subject of Divination to continue at all. -- I was disappointed. It seemed to me that she had not a trace of the gift herself."< (OoP, I think) > > So it seems he accepts the magic and those who have the gift, but doesn't think she has it. Carol responds: Until he hears her give what is obviously a "real" prophecy in the sense that it's not given in her normal voice and she's clearly not in her right mind--she's a *medium* and the voice is coming *through* her, if you understand what I mean. She herself is not making the prophecy; she's only speaking it, but it comes from someone or something or somewhere other than her own mind. (Cf. The Sibyls for whom she's named.) At that point I think he would have hired her to protect her and keep her from being used by Voldemort and the DEs even if the Prophecy hadn't been overheard. What he thinks of the Prophecy itself at this point is hard to say. Certainly, he can have had no more idea than Snape did who it would involve. Potioncat: > He was really avoiding her in HBP. I thought at first that he didn't want to risk hearing a valid prophecy that might influence his behavior. However, it's more likely he was busy and didn't want to put up with her doom-and-gloom forecasts. Carol responds: I think you're right. More specifically, he already knows without the help of a deck of cards (or a crystal ball or whatever) that death is drawing ever nearer to Hogwarts and that the death will be his own. He doesn't need to be reminded of it, and he probably doesn't want her to know that he believes that particular prediction. (It's interesting that "treachery" isn't in the cards. should that have been a hint to us readers that Snape was on DD's side and doing his bidding?) > > > Mike: > ?? . What I'm getting at is that though DD says that Sibyll has two (2) true prophetic utterances under her belt ( this one and the one about Peter), he acts as if the players in the prophecy aren't bound by it, aren't bound by the magic of it. > > Potioncat: > We just don't know the magic behind prophecies. While we can come up with "what ifs" we just don't know what the forces are. > > This is what I think DD thinks. A prophecy has powers, but the individual is not bound to behave in a certain way. Complicating it all, an individual can't really know which of his actions will support the prophecy's outcome.--or if the individual really understands the predicted outcome. Carol responds: I don't think that a prophecy has binding powers. JKR's universe is a little too deterministic for my taste, and Trelawney's prophecies (and even her card readings, which she thinks "can't be right) do come true, and "Mars is bright tonight" does, apparently, foreshadow a Wizarding War, but Firenze says that even the Centaurs have read the skies wrongly on occasion. I'd say that Divination is an inexact "science" at best. Not all prophecies come true (they have to be heard and acted upon, apparently, whether the person acting on them is trying to thwart them or make them come true, just as in mythology) and the wording is ambiguous, making a number of outcomes possible (either Harry or LV could have died "at the hand of the other," but both could not have survived the final battle ("neither can live while the other survives") or it would not have been a final battle (to state the obvious). I think that a Prophecy is not a definitive statement of the future but a prediction of what will come to pass under certain conditions. Once LV has "marked" Harry "as his equal," unwitting bringing about the Love magic and simultaneously giving Harry a few of his own powers (exactly those that will enable Harry to defeat him), it's almost inevitable that he and Harry will confront each other even though, theoretically, Harry could choose to run away or die before the final confrontation, in which case, I don't think that anyone could destroy Voldemort. It also seems to me that only Harry ("the one with the power") can destroy him; otherwise the much wiser and more powerful Dumbledore would have done so. But, still, there's an element of chance in a prophecy, rather like the Mirror of Galadriel, which shows "things that yet may be" but which "may never come to be unless those that behold the visions [read "hear the prophecy"] turn aside from their path to prevent them" (FOTR, "The Mirror of Galadriel"). Potioncat: > Certainly, DD seemed to believe that once LV acted on the prophecy, that certain outcomes were determined. In the same sense that once you start taking a medicine certain out comes are expected--but not guaranteed. Carol: But "outcomes," plural--*either* Harry will vanquish LV or LV will kill him and become, to all intents and purposes, immortal. still, though, until LV took a drop of Harry's blood, Harry could theoretically have died some other way, and I'm not sure whether that drop of blood protected him from other forms of death (such as being strangled and drowned by the Horcrux--would Harry have become Vapor!Harry if Ron (or Snape) had not rescued him?). Potioncat: > I (Potioncat) believe that there is magic in a prophecy that will improve the likelihood of its happening. Whether it is that the right people hear the prophecy, or that it influences a certain response from someone. Carol responds: I think it's more like a magical glimpse of the future as it will be if certain events occur or certain conditions are met. In the case of the first Prophecy, Voldemort himself, in trying to thwart the Prophecy, brought about those necessary conditions, creating his own nemesis. In the case of the second Prophecy, "the servant" was already intending to escape (although he'd only gotten as far as Hagrid's tea jar, or whatever it was); another bit of magic, the DADA curse, was also in effect, perhaps causing Lupin to forget his potion, ultimately allowing Wormtail to escape. But that prophecy, which Harry heard but was not influenced by, could have been thwarted if Harry had not told Black and Lupin not to kill Wormtail. It wasn't inevitable, just probable, given the conditions and character of the various participants. What I'm trying to say is that the magic of a prophecy is not binding; it does not control events. It's more like a revelation of what may happen if the necessary conditions fall into place. Had HRH not gone out to see Hagrid before Buckbeak's execution, for example, none of the rest could have happened. The only difference in this instance is that Harry isn't acting to thwart the prophecy. He might as well not have heard it. It serves only as evidence that Trelawney really is, on occasion, a true Seer, even if she doesn't know it herself. Carol, who hopes that JKR writes that WW encyclopedia and that it includes an entry on Divination From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 23 16:58:53 2009 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 23 Aug 2009 16:58:53 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/23/2009, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1251046733.535.50029.m6@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187589 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 23, 2009 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. Chat start times: 11 am Pacific US 12 noon Mountain US 1 pm Central US 2 pm Eastern US 7 pm UK All Rights Reserved Copyright 2009 Yahoo! Inc. http://www.yahoo.com Privacy Policy: http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us Terms of Service: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Tue Aug 25 08:53:40 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 08:53:40 -0000 Subject: Veelas / Weasels / Death Eater Wannabees In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187590 Catlady wrote in : > Not necessarily: maybe full veelas grew on trees or were birthed by veela mothers who conceived by parthenogenesis while half veelas were conceived by veela mothers as a result of sex with non-veela males. Some [human male] listies previously suggested that all veelas are female and reproduce by sex with human males, in which case a veela's daughter would be full veela and her son would be a half-veela, and her son's child would be a quarter-Veela like Fleur. When we saw Fleur's parents in DH, did either of them seem half-Veela? I suspect Lockhart was half-veela. > > If Potterverse veelas reproduce sexually like normal vertebrates, it is possible that the veelas are the females and some other magical beings are the males of the same species. It appears there are two sexes of giants, two sexes of merfolk, and two sexes of goblins, but I believe JKR has stated that there are only male centaurs. Maybe centaurs are the male veelas. I enjoy the irony of suggesting that trolls are the male veelas, but then who would be the male hags? > In David Eddings' Belgariad Novels, Dryads reproduce exactly the way the listies suggest, and specific traits, such as hair always breed true in the females. That got me thinking; Perhaps the Veela traits, sex appeal and hair especially, are dominant genes in females and recessive genes in males? So males would appear to be ordinary human males, probably more handsome but otherwise normal. If Veela live in their own communities, it may be a matriarchal society and males never leave their own borders. It may even be that Veela genes cause defects in the Y chromosome; in humans a defective Y chromosome produces someone who technically should have been male but is born female. All Veelas would then be female, despite the fact that the father's DNA determines sex. Perhaps wizard blood would eradicate the genetic defect so that a son could be born; even if they then had a daughter, she would be able to have sons because the defect would no longer be encoded in her DNA. zfshiruba From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Tue Aug 25 09:58:19 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:58:19 -0000 Subject: Representing Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187591 Hi! So I'm rereading Goblet of Fire for probably the fiftieth time and I get to wondering. What is it that the Goblet of Fire looks for in a Triwizard Champion? Is it the best representative of the school as a whole? Whoever has the best chance to win? If so what does that say about the schools in question? Viktor seems to be a lot like Harry; talented, somewhat shy, headmaster's favorite, doesn't like to be fussed at. The portrayal of Viktor seems to belie Durmstrang's reputation as a bastion of the Dark Arts and leaning towards the Pureblood Elitists' view of the world. Cedric shows loyalty, courage, and intelligence; Does he show the ambition and cunning of Slytherin as well? It seems to me that a Hogwarts champion would clearly have the traits of ALL four houses. And what about Fleur? Does her performance in the lake suggest that Beauxbatons places less emphasis on defense? Or, like Hogwarts, has had substandard Defense instruction? The Hogwarts students learned grindylows as third years, after all. Finally, wouldn't DH Neville make a fantastic Champion? zfshiuba From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 26 00:00:21 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 00:00:21 -0000 Subject: Representing Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187592 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zfshiruba" wrote: > > Hi! So I'm rereading Goblet of Fire for probably the fiftieth time and I get to wondering. > > What is it that the Goblet of Fire looks for in a Triwizard Champion? > Is it the best representative of the school as a whole? Whoever has the best chance to win? Alla: I really liked your post :-) I can only speculate of course, but I always thought that Goblet was looking for the person who has a best to chance to win **among one school of course**, not for individual who represents the school as whole. I mean, it is a competition, wouldn't it make sense to look for toughest competitor even if such competitor is not the bravest, or bravest but not ambitious, etc? Although I guess some values would help one be tough competitor more than another. Hm, I think actually Goblet was spot on with choosing Hufflepuff member, hard work can achieve a lot, yes? And of course bravery can be very helpful in the challenges they had to overcome, so what I am trying to say is that to me it makes sense that under the normal circumstances (not hoodwinked Goblet) to me it makes sense that either Gryffindor or Hufflepuff would have been chosen. Although I can be totally wrong of course. zfshiruba: > If so what does that say about the schools in question? Viktor seems to be a lot like Harry; talented, somewhat shy, headmaster's favorite, doesn't like to be fussed at. The portrayal of Viktor seems to belie Durmstrang's reputation as a bastion of the Dark Arts and leaning towards the Pureblood Elitists' view of the world. Alla: Right, I agree that in a sense Viktor seems to be a lot like Harry, so doesn't it say that Goblet is looking for the best competitor, not necessarily for the best school representative (in a sense that he will represent the values that school seems to represent), since Viktor does not seem to be Dark Arts lover. In fact as we learn in DH he seems to have very nagative feelings about Grindelwald, etc? zfshiruba: > Cedric shows loyalty, courage, and intelligence; Does he show the ambition and cunning of Slytherin as well? It seems to me that a Hogwarts champion would clearly have the traits of ALL four houses. Alla: I may be misremembering, but I do not remember Cedric showing cunning. I mean, I suppose it is an ambition if one simply desires to win, but Cedric IMO was definitely putting some things above the victory, just as Harry was. > zfshiuba: > And what about Fleur? Does her performance in the lake suggest that Beauxbatons places less emphasis on defense? Or, like Hogwarts, has had substandard Defense instruction? The Hogwarts students learned grindylows as third years, after all. Alla: Fleur's performance to me was a great dissapointment. I expected her to be much tougher competitor. > zfshiuba: > Finally, wouldn't DH Neville make a fantastic Champion? Alla: I agree. From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Wed Aug 26 05:08:45 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 05:08:45 -0000 Subject: Where Are They Now? Character Game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187593 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > At one of the sister sites, someone asked about Umbridge and Fudge. > > I think Umbridge ended up in prison for war crimes. (Perhaps JKR said it in an interview.) Anyway, I can't see her serving in Shacklebolt's ministry. > > But, what about Fudge? Did he leave the MoM after introducing the 2 Ministers? Was he involved in any way? We heard nothing about him. I wonder if he managed to quietly survive, staying under the radar, so to speak. > If I were Fudge, I'd take all that shiny money Lucius had been feeding me and run for it. He'd count on the fact that in all the chaos following the defeat of Voldemort, not to mention the probable rebuilding/purge of the Ministry, no one would have time to go looking for him. We learned in Goblet of Fire that Fudge is horrible with foreign languages so he'd run somewhere where they speak English. I'd guess Canada or Australia; smart money's on Australia, he'd want to pamper himself a bit. Zfshiruba, who recommends Scorpius Malfoy and the Improbable Plot by Opalish as the single funniest and most insane interpretation of the epilogue ever. From bart at moosewise.com Wed Aug 26 14:43:19 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 10:43:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where Are They Now? Character Game In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A954A07.5070609@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187594 zfshiruba wrote: >> At one of the sister sites, someone asked about Umbridge and Fudge. >> >> I think Umbridge ended up in prison for war crimes. (Perhaps JKR said it in an interview.) Anyway, I can't see her serving in Shacklebolt's ministry. >> Bart: I never could figure out how Umbridge kept her position after torturing students, at least one attempt to perform an Unforgivable Curse (before they were made legal), and sending the dementors against Harry and Dudley. Fudge, I would suspect, retired, quietly. Bart >> But, what about Fudge? Did he leave the MoM after introducing the 2 Ministers? Was he involved in any way? We heard nothing about him. I wonder if he managed to quietly survive, staying under the radar, so to speak. >> >> > > If I were Fudge, I'd take all that shiny money Lucius had been feeding me and run for it. He'd count on the fact that in all the chaos following the defeat of Voldemort, not to mention the probable rebuilding/purge of the Ministry, no one would have time to go looking for him. We learned in Goblet of Fire that Fudge is horrible with foreign languages so he'd run somewhere where they speak English. I'd guess Canada or Australia; smart money's on Australia, he'd want to pamper himself a bit. > > Zfshiruba, who recommends Scorpius Malfoy and the Improbable Plot by Opalish as the single funniest and most insane interpretation of the epilogue ever. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Lots of great events happening in summer 2009, so start making your travel plans now! > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/HBF_Text__MUST_READ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 26 16:17:19 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:17:19 -0000 Subject: Where Are They Now? Character Game In-Reply-To: <4A954A07.5070609@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187595 Bart wrote: > I never could figure out how Umbridge kept her position after torturing students, at least one attempt to perform an Unforgivable Curse (before they were made legal), and sending the dementors against Harry and Dudley. Carol responds: How would anyone except the students (only two that we know of, Harry and Lee Jordan) know about the quill that used their own blood to write lines? We know for a fact that Harry never reported it to McGonagall, and Dumbledore was avoiding him that year. And Fudge didn't know about the (never performed) Crucio, either. ("What Cornelius doesn't know won't hurt him," Umbridge says as she contemplates performing it.) Both Harry and Draco attempted Crucios (Harry twice) without getting in trouble for them. Even if the Ministry can detect them (and the evidence that they can is unclear), they wouldn't know who performed the spell, any more than they knew that Dobby performed the Hover Charm in CoS, Barty Jr. cast the Dark Mark in GoF, and Tom Riddle killed his father and grandparents. In the last two instances, the MoM found the "guitly wand" but not the perpetrator. No one knew that she'd sent the Dementors, either. She confessed it to Harry, but he never reported it or testified against her. As far as Fudge and anyone else at the Ministry (including Scrimgeour, who must have been baffled when Harry shook his fist in his [Scrimgeour's] face), Umbridge had been a DADA teacher following a Ministry-approved curriculum, a Ministry-appointed High Inquisitor imposing Ministry guidelines on the staff and students, and headmistress after Dumbledore was (supposedly) caught plotting against the Ministry. Fudge and Scrimgeour probably thought that she, like Fudge, had been deluded about Dumbledore's ambitions, Voldemort's comeback, and Harry's instability. They would have no way of knowing that she sent the Dementors (which appeared to be outside the Ministry's control) to either suck Harry's soul or force him to produce a Patronus and get him expelled, simultaneously undermining Harry's protector, Dumbledore. (I'm pretty sure that she was behind Fudge's paranoia, too, or at least recognized it and fanned the flames of his panic.) Carol, quite sure that Scrimgeour knew nothing about Umbridge's quill, much less her contemplated Crucio, or he would never have mentioned her to Harry, whom he was trying to recruit as a "mascot" From bart at moosewise.com Wed Aug 26 17:36:06 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:36:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where Are They Now? Character Game In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A957286.3080407@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187596 Carol responds: > How would anyone except the students (only two that we know of, Harry and Lee Jordan) know about the quill that used their own blood to write lines? We know for a fact that Harry never reported it to McGonagall, and Dumbledore was avoiding him that year. Bart: However... Carol: > As far as Fudge and anyone else at the Ministry (including Scrimgeour, who must have been baffled when Harry shook his fist in his [Scrimgeour's] face), Bart: Do you really think that Harry would have done that if he didn't believe that Scrimgeour knew damned well exactly what it was? Carol: > Carol, quite sure that Scrimgeour knew nothing about Umbridge's quill, much less her contemplated Crucio, or he would never have mentioned her to Harry, whom he was trying to recruit as a "mascot" Bart: Can you give any logical reason why Harry and/or Dumbledore would not have told the Ministry about her sending the dementors? And, if there is one, why we weren't told about it? Bart From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Wed Aug 26 17:26:49 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 17:26:49 -0000 Subject: Where Are They Now? Character Game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187597 > Carol responds: > Carol, quite sure that Scrimgeour knew nothing about Umbridge's quill, much less her contemplated Crucio, or he would never have mentioned her to Harry, whom he was trying to recruit as a "mascot" > I agree that Scrimgeour knew nothing; I'd expect though, that once Shacklebolt is Minister and Harry finally trusts the government, she'd be prosecuted. zfshiruba From randmath23 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 26 13:15:04 2009 From: randmath23 at yahoo.com (randmath23) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:15:04 -0000 Subject: The Goblet of Fire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187598 from Randmath: I am currently re-reading The Goblet of Fire. I am wondering where is the Goblet of Fire stored between tournaments? What would the security be like for such an important artifact? From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Wed Aug 26 20:39:47 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 20:39:47 -0000 Subject: The Goblet of Fire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187599 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "randmath23" wrote: > > from Randmath: > > I am currently re-reading The Goblet of Fire. I am wondering where is the Goblet of Fire stored between tournaments? What would the security be like for such an important artifact? > I'd guess that either it would be under the protection and supervision of the International Confederation of Wizards or whichever government's school won would be in charge of protecting it. I also imagine that whatever the security is, it doubled after it was bamboozled by Crouch. zfshiruba From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 26 23:20:35 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 23:20:35 -0000 Subject: Where Are They Now? Character Game In-Reply-To: <4A957286.3080407@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187600 Carol earlier: > > As far as Fudge and anyone else at the Ministry (including Scrimgeour, who must have been baffled when Harry shook his fist in his [Scrimgeour's] face), > > Bart: > Do you really think that Harry would have done that if he didn't > believe that Scrimgeour knew damned well exactly what it was? Carol: Yes, I do think that. Scrimgeour has no way of knowing (Umbridge certainly wouldn't have told him), and he appears completely baffled by Harry's action. > > Carol: > > Carol, quite sure that Scrimgeour knew nothing about Umbridge's quill, much less her contemplated Crucio, or he would never have mentioned her to Harry, whom he was trying to recruit as a "mascot" > > Bart: > Can you give any logical reason why Harry and/or Dumbledore would not have told the Ministry about her sending the dementors? And, if there is one, why we weren't told about it? Carol responds: Harry didn't testify against Umbridge, and Dumbledore doesn't want the Ministry interfering. We know that he talked--and quarreled_-with Scrimgeour soon after Scrimgeour took over as Minister for Magic, but that was because Scrimgeour (like Fudge at the end of his term) wanted Harry to appear to be working with the MoM. Harry, who certainly was in no mood or condition to talk to Fudge, was sent immediately to Hogwarts after the MoM battle. Dumbledore told Fudge only what he needed to know about that, including the order (no reason given) to remove Umbridge from Hogwarts. After that, Harry went directly from Hogwarts to the Dursleys and from there to the Burrow (with a detour to see Slughorn), by which time Fudge was out of office. Harry did not meet Scrimgeour until the encounter in the garden at Christmas. Harry didn't tell Dumbledore who sent the Dementors. There's no mention of it in their, er, conversation at the end of OoP, in which Dumbledore does most of the talking. DD can hardly inform the Ministry of what he doesn't know, even if he were inclined to tell them more than he thought they needed to know. Carol, hoping that her reasons are sufficiently logical :-) From rlevatter at yahoo.com Thu Aug 27 01:10:52 2009 From: rlevatter at yahoo.com (rlevatter) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 01:10:52 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187601 1. Sectumsempra: When first used by Harry, inadvertently on Malfoy, Snape controls the damage easily with counterspells and tells Malfoy there will likely be no lasting damage with dittany applied. Yet when the same spell is used by Snape, inadvertently hitting George, the damage (a severed ear) is irreversible, because it was "dark magic". Why was it irreversible dark magic when Snape, a member of Order of the Phoenix, does it but not when Harry does it? 2. Trelawney: In The Seer Revealed chapter in Half-Blood Prince, Professor Trelawney recounts to Harry her recollections of meeting with Dumbledore for a job interview 17 years earlier. Harry realizes she is telling about her divining for Dumbledore Harry's birth and the challenge to Voldemort. And Harry is shocked when Trelawney reveals that the Voldemort spy was none other than Professor Snape. Here's the problem. Trelawney can't remember what's happening when she's actually giving a divination. That is evident in this very scene (she doesn't remember telling Dumbledore about Voldemort) and evident in book 4 when she divines for Harry that Wormtail will soon seek to restore his master. And it is a key part of the plot that Snape was found and sent away before Trelawney finished the entire divination. He heard only the first part. So the question is, if Snape was sent away after Trelawney began but before Trelawney finished her divination to Dumbledore, how did she know about Snape? Did she give the first part, wake up, see Snape sent away, then go under again and give the second part? Obviously not. So how would you explain this? rlevatter From bart at moosewise.com Thu Aug 27 03:19:13 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 23:19:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A95FB31.4050206@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187602 rlevatter wrote: > 1. Sectumsempra: > > When first used by Harry, inadvertently on Malfoy, Snape controls the damage easily with counterspells and tells Malfoy there will likely be no lasting damage with dittany applied. > > Yet when the same spell is used by Snape, inadvertently hitting George, the damage (a severed ear) is irreversible, because it was "dark magic". > > Why was it irreversible dark magic when Snape, a member of Order of the Phoenix, does it but not when Harry does it? > Bart: Because George didn't have Snape to cast the difficult spell to turn the cursed wounds into regular wounds. And, perhaps, because George didn't recover the ear. I can't figure out why they can't make realistic prosthetics, though. Bart From daveh47 at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 04:16:08 2009 From: daveh47 at gmail.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 21:16:08 -0700 Subject: Umbridge's Actions in OOP (was: Where Are They Now? Character Game) Message-ID: <4a96088a.1aba720a.65cf.ffffdfa1@mx.google.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187603 Carol: > > Carol, quite sure that Scrimgeour knew nothing about Umbridge's > quill, much less her contemplated Crucio, or he would never have > mentioned her to Harry, whom he was trying to recruit as a "mascot" zfshiruba: >I agree that Scrimgeour knew nothing; I'd expect though, that once >Shacklebolt is Minister and Harry finally trusts the government, >she'd be prosecuted. Dave: But in Harry's confrontation with Scrimgeour (HBP, chapter 16) Harry holds up his scarred hand to him, and Scrimgeour asks no questions about it, as if he knew perfectly well how those scars got there. I think the Ministry knew perfectly well what Umbridge was doing, and indeed, probably applauded her for "daring to discipline". As for the Dementors, I'm sure she gave Scrimgeour a nice little cover story, claiming that the attack was the start of the Dementors' rebellion, she knew nothing about it, blah, blah, blah. And Dumbledore and Harry are disliked by Scrimgeour enough that he certainly was not going to believe them over her. Dave From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 27 05:46:40 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 05:46:40 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187604 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rlevatter" wrote: > So the question is, if Snape was sent away after Trelawney > began but before Trelawney finished her divination to > Dumbledore, how did she know about Snape? zanooda: I don't see much of a contradiction here. DD never said *when* exactly the eavesdropper was sent away, only that he was discovered shortly after the prophecy started *and* thrown out of the building. What if Snape was detected "a short way into the prophecy", but thrown out later :-)? After being caught at the door by Aberforth, Snape certainly couldn't hear the rest of the prophecy, even if he was still at the door. Knowing Aberforth, I'm sure he didn't take the eavesdropping thing kindly at all :-). I suppose there was a lot of shouting (commotion, in Trelawney's words)- Abe accusing Snape of spying, Snape trying to talk his way out of this mess etc. Meanwhile Trelawney finished the prophecy and came out of her trance, Dumbledore opened the door to see what was going on out there, and only *then* was Snape thrown out of the Hog's Head. This way Snape only heard the beginning of the prophecy, but Trelawney still had a chance to see him. As for why DD didn't tell Harry all these details - I think that he was afraid Harry would ask uncomfortable questions if he knew the whole picture. When DD says that the eavesdropper was caught before the end of the prophecy and thrown out, it sounds as if he didn't actually see the eavesdropper, so Harry has no reason to ask who this was. Technically it's not a lie, it's just one of those half-lies DD is so good at :-). From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Thu Aug 27 02:54:45 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 02:54:45 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rlevatter" wrote: > > 1. Sectumsempra: > > When first used by Harry, inadvertently on Malfoy, Snape controls the damage easily with counterspells and tells Malfoy there will likely be no lasting damage with dittany applied. > > Yet when the same spell is used by Snape, inadvertently hitting George, the damage (a severed ear) is irreversible, because it was "dark magic". > > Why was it irreversible dark magic when Snape, a member of Order of the Phoenix, does it but not when Harry does it? A lot of the spells in the wizarding world seem to depend on a certain amount of visualization, especially in first uses, e.g. Accio Firebolt. It may also have an intent requirement that Harry doesn't know about. (Moody's comment about the 4th years' Avada Kedavras, Harry's attempt at Crucio.) When Harry uses the spell, he has no real idea what it's going to do, so the spell isn't at strong as it could be. Harry may even have an incorrect visual of what the spell will do; the first time I read the incantation, I thought of Rictusempra. Snape, on the other hand, knows exactly what its going to do; he invented it. Likewise, Snape is cautious and paranoid enough that I am certain he created counterspells for his own use and didn't right them down. It's Snape's spell; of course he can counter it. Also, it may not be irreversible dark magic so much as unknown dark magic; it's hard to cure what you can't diagnose. zfshiruba From jnoyl at aim.com Thu Aug 27 08:52:51 2009 From: jnoyl at aim.com (JLyon) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 01:52:51 -0700 Subject: Two Plot Problems Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187606 RE: Trelawney and her statement the Snape was in the room during her job interview. I thought that Trelawney's statement implied that Snape was with Bumbles the whole time or, at least, throughout the whole prophesy. Thus Snape heard it all and Bumbles instructed/ordered him to only tell Moldie part of the prophesy. JKR obviously didn't mean to, but this "proved" to me that Bumbles more or less planned the whole set- up. Surely, since he and Snape can't keep themselves out of anyone's brain, he and Snape knew who the spy was in the order and that he had the dark mark (I doubt the Wormtail ever learned occlumency or could have kept either out no matter what). JLyon From rlevatter at yahoo.com Thu Aug 27 04:27:50 2009 From: rlevatter at yahoo.com (rlevatter) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 04:27:50 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: <4A95FB31.4050206@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187607 > Bart: > Because George didn't have Snape to cast the difficult spell to turn the > cursed wounds into regular wounds. And, perhaps, because George didn't > recover the ear. I can't figure out why they can't make realistic > prosthetics, though. I don't know, Bart. You can read the passage yourself. No one is saying, "Sorry, George; too bad Snape isn't here. He's the only wizard smart enough to do this particular bit of magic." They're saying that the nature of the Sectumsempra hex is dark magic that cannot be reversed. At least that's how it reads to me. rlevatter From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Thu Aug 27 03:43:01 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 03:43:01 -0000 Subject: Rightful Owner/ Slythie followers of LV/Stan Shunpike In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187608 Catlady wrote: >Maybe Harry WAS the rightful owner of the resurrection stone (the Peverell ring). It was passed as an inheritance to Marvolo and the only surviving descendent of Marvolo was TMR, but it is hard to argue that TMR was a less rightful owner than DD, because TMR got it by causing Marvolo and Morfin to die by framing them for his murder of the Riddles. Harry, descended from Ignotus Peverell, may have been the closest living relative, therefore rightful heir, of Antioch Peverell, original owner of the stone. (Carol, would Agnotus been as suitable a name as Ignotus for the Invisibility Cloak Wearer?) > >However, I'm more inclined to think that DD acquired it rightfully, rather than stealing it from TMR. I feel that it was ownerless property at the time (as TMR was not a rightful owner) and therefore legitimate salvage. Would British laws about treasure trove apply to it? > I don't know about salvage laws, but I've heard that when rulers rule by divine right, an usurper may steal the throne, but their descendants are considered born kings; they inherited stolen property, but because they didn't personally steal it, the usurper's heir is considered a rightful ruler; not "the" rightful ruler, but still possessing a legitimate claim. Dumbledore was not the rightful owner, but Harry rightfully inherited it; he didn't commit the theft; his claim is legitimate. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" wrote: > I pretty much agree with you (most actual DEs other than Wormtail appear to have been in Slytherin). Fenrir Greyback, of course, wasn't in any House (and wasn't in the inner circle, FWIW), but the Snatchers also create the impression that they were in Slytherin. (I'm ignoring Harry's unaccountable reference to skulls in the Slytherin common room here.) > We see in OP that anti-Slytherin prejudice was already strong at the beginning of Lord Voldemort's rise; Perhaps the majority of DE's are Slytherins in reaction to that prejudice. LV gave them a chance to get back at the other 3 houses. Also, most Slytherins seem prejudiced against the other 3 houses; I imagine LV simply didn't think his Gryffindor/Hufflepuff followers to be competent enough for important tasks. He may have trusted the Slytherins more. Although, if that's the case then he's bloody stupid. > Carol, wondering which House Stan Shunpike was in, assuming that he attended Hogwarts for at least a few years > Not Slytherin. I can't see anyone with decent ambition working his job; he's also way too gullible, not to mention somewhat dim, to be a Ravenclaw, and I think most Slytherins would be capable of some skepticism. My money is on Hufflepuff, because if he's around 18 or 19 and a Gryffindor, he would have spent at least one year in the same common room as the Weasley twins, and someone as gullible as him, Seventh Year or no, would have either learned some skepticism or remained a target. Zfshiruba From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Thu Aug 27 04:01:03 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 04:01:03 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Ghosts/Priori Incantatem Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187609 When Voldemort's victims appear in the graveyard due to the brother wand effect, How does Bertha Jorkins know Harry's name? Obviously she'd know who Harry Potter was, but how would she know instantly that the boy she could see was Harry Potter? Do Voldemort's victims haunt him? They aren't actual ghosts, but they seem to be up to speed on events. Also, when Priori Incantatem is used on Harry's wand, it shows a ghostly form of the Dark Mark, right? So why do only the Killing Curses come out of Voldemort's wand? Why not a ghostly vision of Harry under the cruciatus or the form of Wormtail's silver hand? Zfshiruba From brian at rescueddoggies.com Thu Aug 27 11:50:16 2009 From: brian at rescueddoggies.com (Brian) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:50:16 -0300 Subject: Two Plot Problems Message-ID: <4A9672F8.4010209@rescueddoggies.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187610 It's sad that we have to find convoluted explanations for what are quite simply mistakes in the books. JKR's books are full of things that are inconsistent with each other and don't make sense. It's evident that her editors (she actually HAD editors?) were either incompetant or didn't think it was worth the trouble for a children's book. She should have sent her books to fanfiction.net to get torn to bits and exposed to thousands of reviewers - No fanfric author here would get away with the errors in her books without having them pointed out over and over again. Ironic that we are held to a higher standard, while she gets the billions. Damn! Brian From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Wed Aug 26 19:53:28 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 19:53:28 -0000 Subject: Where Are They Now? Character Game In-Reply-To: <4A957286.3080407@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187611 > Carol: > > As far as Fudge and anyone else at the Ministry (including Scrimgeour, who must have been baffled when Harry shook his fist in his [Scrimgeour's] face), > > Bart: > Do you really think that Harry would have done that if he didn't > believe that Scrimgeour knew damned well exactly what it was? > zfshiruba: Harry's track record for jumping to conclusion isn't exactly clear; there's no way he trusts the ministry. > Carol: > > Carol, quite sure that Scrimgeour knew nothing about Umbridge's quill, much less her contemplated Crucio, or he would never have mentioned her to Harry, whom he was trying to recruit as a "mascot" > > Bart: > Can you give any logical reason why Harry and/or Dumbledore would > not have told the Ministry about her sending the dementors? And, if > there is one, why we weren't told about it? > Like I said, there's no way Harry trusts the ministry. Also, what proof do they have? Well she said she did! So did Lockhart. Also, if they told Fudge; he would have covered it up. He may have covered up anything to do with her before Scrimgeour became Minister. Or she might have covered it up. I imagine that even after the fiasco at Hogwarts, Umbridge might still have enough power to make an inquiry or two disappear. zfshiruba From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Wed Aug 26 05:35:57 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 05:35:57 -0000 Subject: Representing Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187612 zfshiuba: > > And what about Fleur? Does her performance in the lake suggest that > > Beauxbatons places less emphasis on defense? Or, like Hogwarts, has > > had substandard Defense instruction? The Hogwarts students learned > > grindylows as third years, after all. Alla: > Fleur's performance to me was a great dissapointment. I expected her > to be much tougher competitor. Fleur's performance is my greatest evidence for the "representative of the school" theory. If she's the most likely student from Beauxbatons to win, Beauxbatons has no good fighters. I don't see that as being all that likely. zfshiuba From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 27 16:14:01 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:14:01 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187613 Bart wrote: > > Because George didn't have Snape to cast the difficult spell to turn the cursed wounds into regular wounds. And, perhaps, because George didn't recover the ear. I can't figure out why they can't make realistic prosthetics, though. rlevatter replied: > I don't know, Bart. You can read the passage yourself. No one is saying, "Sorry, George; too bad Snape isn't here. He's the only wizard smart enough to do this particular bit of magic." They're saying that the nature of the Sectumsempra hex is dark magic that cannot be reversed. At least that's how it reads to me. Carol responds: I agree with Bart. Snape invented Sectumsempra, so he must also have invented that complex countercurse. I think he must be the only one who knows it. I'm actually surprised that Molly, who (like Madam Pomfrey) knows nothing about Dark Magic, could even stop the bleeding. I do think that if Snape could have retrieved the ear and been allowed access to George, he could have healed him as easily as he did Draco, but, of course, he never had the chance. (And, of course, they don't mention him except as the caster of the spell. They think he's a bad guy, and, AFAIK, Harry is the only one who's seen Snape cast the countercurse. Most likely, Lupin thinks it's one of those Dark curses mentioned by Hermione in HBP that can't be undone.) Alternatively, it could just be yet another of JKR's inconsistencies. In HBP, Dittany merely prevents scarring after Snape heals Draco's wounds with his countercurse. In DH, Hermione uses it to stop the bleeding when Ron is Splinched. Admittedly, Splinching isn't Dark magic and she can't restore the chunk of flesh that's missing from his arm; she can only stop the bleeding and make the skin grow back (so Ron probably has a hunk of flesh missing even in the Epilogue unless it somehow grew back!), but, still, it's not consistent. Personally, I think that the "Snape isn't there" explanation works fine to resolve the seeming inconsistency in the case you mention, but other inconsistencies (I have yet to encounter a convincing explanation for Ron's knowing about Draco's Hand of Glory of the Charlie Weasley problem) remain inconsistencies. I guess it's up to the reader to find a resolution that satisfies him or her. Admittedly, that in itself is a flaw in the books. If the author herself can't catch it, an editor should have called her attention to it. Carol, not trying to convince you, just expressing her own views on the matter From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 27 16:34:51 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:34:51 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Ghosts/Priori Incantatem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187614 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zfshiruba" wrote: > > When Voldemort's victims appear in the graveyard due to the brother wand effect, How does Bertha Jorkins know Harry's name? Obviously she'd know who Harry Potter was, but how would she know instantly that the boy she could see was Harry Potter? Do Voldemort's victims haunt him? They aren't actual ghosts, but they seem to be up to speed on events. > > Also, when Priori Incantatem is used on Harry's wand, it shows a ghostly form of the Dark Mark, right? So why do only the Killing Curses come out of Voldemort's wand? Why not a ghostly vision of Harry under the cruciatus or the form of Wormtail's silver hand? > > Zfshiruba > Carol responds: Voldie's wand doesn't show a ghostly version of the Dark Mark; that's Harry's wand, which Barty Jr. used to cast Morsmordre. A ghostly version of the hand *does* come out of Voldie's wand and so do screams representing the Cruciatus Curse, as well as all the AK victims back to Godric's Hollow. (Wormtail used Voldie's wand to kill Cedric, so he shows up, too.) I don't recall anything representing the (failed) Imperius Curse that Voldie used on Harry, but I don't know how the narrator would depict that, anyway. Or, perhaps, Harry, the pov character, didn't notice that spell's "ghost," which wasn't as obvious as the others. He was rather preoccupied at the time. :-) As for Bertha knowing who Harry is, she's undoubtedly heard his name since the Godric's Hollow incident and would know about the scar. Also, according to Sirius Black, she was only a year or two ahead of the Marauders in school, so she would have noticed Harry's marked resemblance to James, a Quidditch champion and well-known at Hogwarts (if primarily as a troublemaker), even if she was in a different House. Carol, who should be editing and can't take time to quote the relevant passage for the "echoes" From sweenlit at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 17:34:39 2009 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:34:39 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43e41d1e0908271034t3332fdc1m402b7bc1a76dc0e3@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187615 I don't see a plot problem with the sectum sempra. Molly Weasley simply had not studied healing from dark magic curses enough to know how to fix George's ear. Not a problem. Snape had studied dark magic healing spells to that extent, and so was able to heal Draco. Again, not a plot problem. Just a gap in the knowledge of one magic user, that therefore did not allow the user to heal an injury when, under the care of another magic user, a healing might have been possible. I think we sometimes make to big a deal out of things that aren't really mistakes or plot holes at all. Lynda From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 27 18:54:55 2009 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (mcrudele78) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 18:54:55 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187616 > > Bart wrote: > > Because George didn't have Snape to cast the difficult spell > > to turn the cursed wounds into regular wounds. > > rlevatter replied: > > > > They're saying that the nature of the Sectumsempra hex is dark > > magic that cannot be reversed. At least that's how it reads to > > me. > Carol responded: > I agree with Bart. Snape invented Sectumsempra, so he must also > have invented that complex countercurse. I think he must be the > only one who knows it. Mike adds: I think it's a little of both. Snape himself calls his Sectumsempra curse "dark magic" when he confronts Harry after healing Malfoy. And I also think that Snape alone knows the specific counter-curse for this spell. That doesn't mean that a regular old healing spell won't work, it just won't work as well or as completely. So while Molly, or some other halfway descent healer, could stop George's bleeding after a fashion, they can't completely counter the "dark magic" of the spell. Since "dark magic" was never well defined, it's hard to say what they can't counter or how a spell is imbued with dark magic. But according to it's inventor, Sectumsempra is dark magic. That's the way it reads to me. :) > Carol responded: > Most likely, Lupin thinks it's one of those Dark curses mentioned > by Hermione in HBP that can't be undone.) Mike: I think Lupin knows its Snape's curse. His statement about Snape being famous for it implies some history there. So I would think that Lupin has seen Snape cast it in the past and has seen someone do some amount of healing on the resulting cuts. In fact, in the manner in which Lupin raises the subject, it almost sounds as if Snape invented this and tried it out at school on someone. But being the inventor, I'd bet that Snape knew how much power to put behind it - how hard he concentrated, maybe mixed with his actual intent - so as to not cause too much damage, only just enough to get his point across. That Sev was a clever boy, and the little note in the HBP's book that said "for enemies" hints that possibly one James Potter and one Sirius Black were driving forces for the invention of this spell. That's why I think it was a school invention and that's where I think Lupin gained a context for what kind of a spell it was. > JLyon: > I thought that Trelawney's statement implied that Snape was with > Bumbles the whole time or, at least, throughout the whole prophesy. Mike: I thought she was pretty clear. She thought she had dozed off, when she was actually delivering the prophecy. When she came out of the trance, when she thought she woke up, she heard a commotion at the door and then the door burst open to reveal Snape and Aberforth. Albus was in the room the whole time. In my reading, when Dumbledore said he was getting up to leave, I pictured him half way to the door when Sibyll starts delivering the prophecy. He stops, turns around and watches, but he's close enough to the door to hear the commotion going on outside to know about when it starts in relation to where Sibyll is at. He's pretty sure that Snape only got this first part, but that's not going to stop him from questioning Snape on the windswept hill about how much he told to Voldemort. Pre-DH, I too had thought that possibly DD and Snape were in cahoots prior to the prophecy, but DH put the kibash on that theory. That doesn't mean that I think DD was completely honest about that night, but as Mila said: " it's just one of those half-lies DD is so good at :-)." Mike From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Thu Aug 27 19:00:29 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 19:00:29 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0908271034t3332fdc1m402b7bc1a76dc0e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187617 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynda Cordova wrote: Lynda: > I don't see a plot problem with the sectum sempra. Molly Weasley > simply had not studied healing from dark magic > curses enough to know how to fix George's ear. Not a problem. Snape > had studied dark magic healing spells to that extent, and so was able > to heal Draco. Again, not a plot problem. Just a gap in the knowledge > of one magic user, that therefore did not allow the user to heal an > injury when, under the care of another magic user, a healing might > have been possible. I think we sometimes make to big a deal out of > things that aren't really mistakes or plot holes at all. Geoff: The relevant piece of canon is: 'Mrs.Weasley looked round and said, "I can't make it grow back, not when it's been removed by Dark Magic."' (DH "Fallen Warrior" p.66 UK edition) When Harry used 'Sectumsempra' in Draco, he didn't *remove* anything of Draco's. He merely created cuts which, possibly, could have been handled by someone other than Snape. Going off at a tangent, one interesting thought which occurs to me is why Snape arrived through the door of the bathroom so quickly after the spell was cast. Has anyone commented on this previously? From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Thu Aug 27 19:10:52 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 19:10:52 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187618 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zfshiruba" wrote: zfshiruba: >Harry may even have an incorrect visual of what the spell will do; the first time I read the incantation, I thought of Rictusempra. Geoff: Depends on how good Harry's Latin is. '-sempra' is merely a form of 'semper' = always or forever. Rictus is a fixed grin or grimace and 'Sectum-'is derived from the verb 'seco' = to cut. So the only real link between the two is a sense of continuous action. From sweenlit at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 20:18:08 2009 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:18:08 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43e41d1e0908271318t78bf76dakd9ac97014cd12bc2@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187619 JLyon: > I thought that Trelawney's statement implied that Snape was with > Bumbles the whole time or, at least, throughout the whole prophesy. Mike: I thought she was pretty clear. She thought she had dozed off, when she was actually delivering the prophecy. When she came out of the trance, when she thought she woke up, she heard a commotion at the door and then the door burst open to reveal Snape and Aberforth. Albus was in the room the whole time. In my reading, when Dumbledore said he was getting up to leave, I pictured him half way to the door when Sibyll starts delivering the prophecy. He stops, turns around and watches, but he's close enough to the door to hear the commotion going on outside to know about when it starts in relation to where Sibyll is at. He's pretty sure that Snape only got this first part, but that's not going to stop him from questioning Snape on the windswept hill about how much he told to Voldemort. Lynda: I've never seen any plot hole in this either. Trelawny thought she fell asleep, when in actuality she went into a trance. Dumbledore was not going to hire her and prior to Trelawny's slipping into trance was ready to tell her and leave, but then, the prophecy, the scrabbling at the door and the sudden realization that Snape had been eavesdropping that was interrupted by Aberforth, therefore insuring that Snape did not hear the entire prophecy. Well explained in the story, understandable, and there's no plot hole there. Lynda From sweenlit at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 20:23:50 2009 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 13:23:50 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: References: <43e41d1e0908271034t3332fdc1m402b7bc1a76dc0e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43e41d1e0908271323q59b6b7a7kf08b2611450087a4@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187620 Geoff: The relevant piece of canon is: 'Mrs.Weasley looked round and said, "I can't make it grow back, not when it's been removed by Dark Magic."' (DH "Fallen Warrior" p.66 UK edition) When Harry used 'Sectumsempra' in Draco, he didn't *remove* anything of Draco's. He merely created cuts which, possibly, could have been handled by someone other than Snape. Lynda: My point is still relevant, however. JKR spent enough time making it understood throughout HBP that Snape is a healer of dark magic curse wounds whereas others, even trained healers like Madam Pomfrey are not, that it stuck out even early in the text the first me, my family and my friends read it. And that generally means, she meant to do just that. Point out that Snape had skills that she had chosen not to reveal until that point. Molly Weasley does not. Madam Pomfrey does not. Snape does. Lynda From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 27 22:42:07 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 22:42:07 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187621 Carol earlier: > > Most likely, Lupin thinks it's one of those Dark curses mentioned by Hermione in HBP that can't be undone.) > > Mike: > I think Lupin knows its Snape's curse. His statement about Snape being famous for it implies some history there. So I would think that Lupin has seen Snape cast it in the past and has seen someone do some amount of healing on the resulting cuts. In fact, in the manner in which Lupin raises the subject, it almost sounds as if Snape invented this and tried it out at school on someone. carol responds: Sorry to be unclear. I meant that Lupin doesn't know that Snape has invented a countercurse, so he assumes that no one can cure it. after all, he's not present when Snape heals Draco. As for all the problems involved in Lupin's saying that Sectumsempra was Snape's signature spell when he didn't even know that Snape was a DE, I've already made those points several times and don't want to go there again. I agree with the part I snipped about James and Sirius being the "enemies" that it was invented for. I'm not sure about the amount of control; he was aiming for the DE's hand, which I assume he intended to sever as he severed George's ear (the DE must have heard the first part of the curse and swerved to avoid it). Carol, no pun on "sever us" intended From terrianking at aol.com Thu Aug 27 21:58:29 2009 From: terrianking at aol.com (terrianking at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 17:58:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Umbridge's Actions in OOP (was: Where Are They Now? Chara... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187622 Dave: But in Harry's confrontation with Scrimgeour (HBP, chapter 16) Harry holds up his scarred hand to him, and Scrimgeour asks no questions about it, as if he knew perfectly well how those scars got there. I think the Ministry knew perfectly well what Umbridge was doing, and indeed, probably applauded her for "daring to discipline". Robert: It's stated in the books that Harry isn't the only one who was disciplined in this manner. While he may have unobservant relatives who could care less what happened to him while he was away, the others who (Lee Jordan is the only name I can think of off-hand) faced the same punishment most probably didn't. I know if my child came home for Christmas holiday with a healing scar on her hand in the shape of words I would notice and want to know how it got there. Even Harry wasn't successful at hiding his hand for long. The Ministry had to have been told about it by angry parents at some time during Umbridge's tenure, and I agree. Fudge probably did back her up. I don't see how Scimgeour, working at the Ministry as head of the aurors office didn't at least hear about it from someone. Dave: As for the Dementors, I'm sure she gave Scrimgeour a nice little cover story, claiming that the attack was the start of the Dementors' rebellion, she knew nothing about it, blah, blah, blah. And Dumbledore and Harry are disliked by Scrimgeour enough that he certainly was not going to believe them over her. Robert: Didn't she admit in front of the students at Hogwarts that she gave that order? Those kids are awfully secretive about school life if none of this, including the attempted Crucio, ever got out to the general public. Robert From bart at moosewise.com Fri Aug 28 01:20:48 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 21:20:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0908271034t3332fdc1m402b7bc1a76dc0e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <43e41d1e0908271034t3332fdc1m402b7bc1a76dc0e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A9730F0.5060105@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187623 Lynda Cordova wrote: > I think we sometimes make to big a deal out of > things that aren't really mistakes or plot holes at all. > Bart: I would definitely qualify George's ear as a plot hole. Bart From bart at moosewise.com Fri Aug 28 01:42:18 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 21:42:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A9735FA.3040302@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187624 Mike: > I think Lupin knows its Snape's curse. His statement about Snape being famous for it implies some history there. So I would think that Lupin has seen Snape cast it in the past and has seen someone do some amount of healing on the resulting cuts. In fact, in the manner in which Lupin raises the subject, it almost sounds as if Snape invented this and tried it out at school on someone. > Bart: Like maybe James Potter (it was part of the "Snape's Worst Memory" scene, but I don't recall if it was the OOP or the DH version)? Bart From bart at moosewise.com Fri Aug 28 01:43:51 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 21:43:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A973657.7020007@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187625 geoff_bannister wrote: > Going off at a tangent, one interesting thought which occurs to me is why > Snape arrived through the door of the bathroom so quickly after the spell > was cast. Has anyone commented on this previously? > Bart: Unbreakable Vows can do strange things to people (for the subtlety challenged: Snape was keeping an eye on Draco). Bart From bart at moosewise.com Fri Aug 28 01:50:51 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 21:50:51 -0400 Subject: Rowling's Knowledge (was: Two Plot Problems) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A9737FB.9060105@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187626 geoff_bannister wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zfshiruba" wrote: > > zfshiruba: > >> Harry may even have an incorrect visual of what the spell will do; the first time I read the incantation, I thought of Rictusempra. >> > > Geoff: > Depends on how good Harry's Latin is. '-sempra' is merely a form of 'semper' > = always or forever. Rictus is a fixed grin or grimace and 'Sectum-'is derived > from the verb 'seco' = to cut. So the only real link between the two is a sense > of continuous action. Bart: I believe I've mentioned this before, but years ago, the late Isaac Asimov wrote a rather interesting essay on why he believed that Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare's plays, and not one of the other prominent Elizabethan figures sometimes theorized to have written them. His logic was based on the beliefs, expressed in the plays, on scientific and other factual matters, and, more specifically, what Shakespeare got wrong. Asimov pointed out that the mistakes were what would be expected for the level of education that Shakespeare received, but would not have been made by someone as educated as, for example, Sir Francis Bacon. The point is that it also depends on how good J. K. Rowling's Latin is. When trying to tie in what happens in the books to real world knowledge, we have to remember that we are looking not at the current state of knowledge, but the then current state of Rowling's knowledge. Consider, for example, the mental illness of Voldemort. He may or may not be sociopathic/psychotic by psychiatric standards, but if you look up the illnesses in an encyclopedia and base it on that, Morty has all the symptoms of one, with the exception of his ability to stick to a long, complex plan. Bart [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Aug 28 06:36:50 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 06:36:50 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: <4A973657.7020007@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187627 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > geoff_bannister wrote: > > Going off at a tangent, one interesting thought which occurs to me is why > > Snape arrived through the door of the bathroom so quickly after the spell > > was cast. Has anyone commented on this previously? > Bart: > Unbreakable Vows can do strange things to people (for the subtlety > challenged: Snape was keeping an eye on Draco). Geoff: I'm aware of that. The point I was trying to make was the speed of Snape's response. After all, the incident occurred on one of the upper floors, some way from the Slytherin dungeons and even if Snape was keeping some sort of eye on Draco, via a mind link even, the seriousness of that had happened might not have been immediately clear to him. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Fri Aug 28 10:02:34 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:02:34 -0000 Subject: Rowling's Knowledge (was: Two Plot Problems) In-Reply-To: <4A9737FB.9060105@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: Geoff: > > Depends on how good Harry's Latin is. '-sempra' is merely a form of 'semper' > > = always or forever. Rictus is a fixed grin or grimace and 'Sectum-'is derived > > from the verb 'seco' = to cut. So the only real link between the two is a sense > > of continuous action. Bart: > The point is that it also depends on how good J. K. Rowling's Latin > is. When trying to tie in what happens in the books to real world > knowledge, we have to remember that we are looking not at the current > state of knowledge, but the then current state of Rowling's knowledge. Geoff: Not really, because I'm looking at it from Harry's point of view. I studied Latin as far as O-level (the Fifth Year national exam at the time) and still have a reasonable grasp of it, and I believe that JKR may have done the same. I felt that Harry, like me, possibly didn't notice the link that the two spells had the same suffix; I suspect that there are other spells in the Wizarding World which are similar. After all, correct me if I'm wrong but I think the only other time Harry used the 'Rictusempra' spell was in the duel with Draco and that was in COS - four years previously and there's been a lot of water under the bridge since then. He's had to deal with many more serious spells since then - I can't see him using 'Rictusempra' on Voldemort for example. :-) From bart at moosewise.com Fri Aug 28 14:46:55 2009 From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:46:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A97EDDF.9000201@moosewise.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187629 Geoff: > I'm aware of that. The point I was trying to make was the speed of Snape's > response. After all, the incident occurred on one of the upper floors, some > way from the Slytherin dungeons and even if Snape was keeping some sort > of eye on Draco, via a mind link even, the seriousness of that had happened > might not have been immediately clear to him. Bart: (to list elves: after a couple of years, I forgot about the daily limit on messages; it won't happen again). In any case, I suspect that Myrtle yelling bloody murder gave Professor Snape a hint. Bart From sweenlit at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 16:25:26 2009 From: sweenlit at gmail.com (Lynda Cordova) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 09:25:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: <4A9730F0.5060105@moosewise.com> References: <43e41d1e0908271034t3332fdc1m402b7bc1a76dc0e3@mail.gmail.com> <4A9730F0.5060105@moosewise.com> Message-ID: <43e41d1e0908280925o33074847t75895c4e853270f4@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187630 Lynda Cordova wrote: > I think we sometimes make to big a deal out of > things that aren't really mistakes or plot holes at all. > Bart: I would definitely qualify George's ear as a plot hole. ---------------------------- Lynda: I realize that. I don't think so, however. Just a way of saying some witches/wizards have differing levels and areas of expertise. Also, let's remember that George's ear was gone, whereas Draco wasn't missing any body parts. Not everything that doesn't fit precisely where I want it too as a reader is indicative that the author that created the story made a mistake! Lynda From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 28 16:34:55 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:34:55 -0000 Subject: Scrimgeour and Harrys raised fist (Was: Umbridge's Actions in OOP ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187631 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, terrianking at ... wrote: > > > Dave: > But in Harry's confrontation with Scrimgeour (HBP, chapter 16) Harry > holds up his scarred hand to him, and Scrimgeour asks no questions > about it, as if he knew perfectly well how those scars got there. I > think the Ministry knew perfectly well what Umbridge was doing, and > indeed, probably applauded her for "daring to discipline". > > Robert: > > It's stated in the books that Harry isn't the only one who was disciplined > in this manner. While he may have unobservant relatives who could care less > what happened to him while he was away, the others who (Lee Jordan is the > only name I can think of off-hand) faced the same punishment most probably > didn't. I know if my child came home for Christmas holiday with a healing > scar on her hand in the shape of words I would notice and want to know how > it got there. Even Harry wasn't successful at hiding his hand for long. > The Ministry had to have been told about it by angry parents at some time > during Umbridge's tenure, and I agree. Fudge probably did back her up. I > don't see how Scimgeour, working at the Ministry as head of the aurors > office didn't at least hear about it from someone. > > > > > > Dave: > As for the Dementors, I'm sure she gave Scrimgeour a nice little > cover story, claiming that the attack was the start of the Dementors' > rebellion, she knew nothing about it, blah, blah, blah. And > Dumbledore and Harry are disliked by Scrimgeour enough that he > certainly was not going to believe them over her. > > Robert: > Didn't she admit in front of the students at Hogwarts that she gave that > order? > Those kids are awfully secretive about school life if none of this, > including the attempted Crucio, ever got out to the general public. > > > Robert > Carol responds: She admitted it in front of HRH, Neville, Ginny, Luna, and the Inquisitorial Squad. We know that Harry didn't report it to anyone, Hermione never tells her parents anything about Hogwarts (except that she's been appointed Prefect, which they'll "understand"), and the Weasleys clearly don't know anything about it or they'd have said so, as would Neville's formidable grandmother. As for Xenophilius Lovegood, who would believe anything that the editor of the Quibbler said even if Luna reported it to him? And the parents of the Inquisitorial Squad students aren't likely to complain to the MoM that one of its members sent Dementors after Harry Potter--or that she intended to Crucio him. Besides, since she never performed the spell, there's no evidence, just as there's no evidence that she sent the Dementors. How could anyone prove that charge, especially after the Dementors deserted Azkaban en masse and joined Voldemort? As for Lee Jordan, the only other student that we know of who had to do lines with Umbridge's quill, he seems to have recovered quickly thanks to the Murtlap potion. I doubt that he reported it to his parents, either. Scrimgeour is anti-Voldemort, whatever his other faults. If Scrimgeour knew that Umbridge was in league with a Death Eater like Lucius Malfoy, whom she mentions several times, and recruiting Death Eaters' children to do her dirty work, I seriously doubt that he would have allowed her to retain a position in his administration. And if he suspected that she had cruelly punished Harry (or threatened to Crucio him or sent Dementors after him), he would have been foolish in the extreme to mention her when he's trying to recruit Harry as the MoM's mascot. He tells Harry that Umbridge has mentioned Harry's ambition to be an Auror and that that could be arranged--he's trying to bribe Harry and seems to think that Umbridge is on Harry's side. (Obviously, *she* would try to create that impression, too, now that Voldemort is known to be back and Harry is regarded as the Chosen One rather than an attention-seeking liar.) Harry reacts, not by immediately raising his fist and pointing out that Umbridge scarred him for life but by quietly asking for clarification: "So basically you'd like to create the impression that I'm working for the Ministry?" Scrimgeour doesn't realize until Harry mentions Stan Shunpike's arrest a few paragraphs later that Harry doesn't approve of the Ministry's methods. Umbridge does not come up again directly. When Harry raises his fist to show the words carved on them, it's in response to Scrimgeour's apology for saying that it doesn't matter whether Harry is the Chosen One. Harry responds by telling him that those were the only honest words Scrimgeour has spoken and adding, "You don't care whether I live or die, but you do care that I help you convince everyone you're winning the war against Voldemort. I haven't forgotten, Minister [raises his fist and pauses]. I don't remember you rushing to my defense when I was trying to tell everyone Voldemort was back. The Ministry wasn't so keen to be pals last year." There's no indication whatever that these words apply specifically to Dolores Umbridge. They seem to apply to the Ministry in general and to Scrimgeour personally ("you"). Scrimgeour's response to these words and to the raised fist, which looks like and is a gesture of defiance and hostility, is icy silence. If he connected the fist with Dolores Umbridge, he would almost certainly have dissociated himself with her and her methods, perhaps even promising to fire her. After all, he's trying to recruit Harry to the Ministry's side. As it is, he merely thinks that Harry has been brainwashed by Dumbledore to disapprove of the Ministry's methods. Similarly, in DH, he seems to have no clue that the raised fist relates to Umbridge. Faced with Harry's lack of cooperation (again), Scrimgeour again invokes Dumbledore and says that it's not up to a seventeen-year-old boy to tell him how to do his job. Harry, who has already mentioned the cover-up of the Azkaban breakout and Mad-Eye Moody's death, responds to Scrimgeour's statement that they ought to be working together with, "I don't like your methods, Minister. Remember?" and raises his fist--again, an apparent gesture of defiance with no overt connection to Umbridge. In Harry's mind, the Ministry members are all the same, all connected to his ordeal of the previous year. But I see no way that Scrimgeour could know that. All he knows is that Harry disapproves of the arrest of Stan Shunpike and the cover-up of the Azkaban breakout, and that he's "Dumbledore's man through and through." In this instance, Scrimgeour's expression hardens and he leaves without another word, having failed for reasons he doesn't fully understand (IMO) to enlist Harry's cooperation. Not once does Harry directly connect the raised fist to Umbridge. If I were Scrimgeour (who doesn't seem to read or even see the carved words on the fist), I would interpret that raised fist to mean what a raised fist always means--hostility and defiance. Not only has Scrimgeour failed to recruit Harry as mascot, he's failed to discover what Dumbledore was up to--or why Harry might need the Sword of Gryffindor. As with Snape, Harry and a potential ally have failed to communicate and thoroughly misunderstood one another. We can think of it as Voldemort sowing discord among his enemies, setting them against one another and preventing them from working together. We know where Scrimgeour's loyalties lie. He dies refusing to give the DEs information about Harry. Carol, who thinks that the raised fist is just one more instance of the miscommunication motif that appears in all the books From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 28 16:42:43 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:42:43 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: <4A9735FA.3040302@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187632 Mike wrote: > > I think Lupin knows its Snape's curse. His statement about Snape being famous for it implies some history there. So I would think that Lupin has seen Snape cast it in the past and has seen someone do some amount of healing on the resulting cuts. In fact, in the manner in which Lupin raises the subject, it almost sounds as if Snape invented this and tried it out at school on someone. > > > Bart replied: > Like maybe James Potter (it was part of the "Snape's Worst Memory" scene, but I don't recall if it was the OOP or the DH version)? > Carol responds: As I've said before, I don't think it was the same spell. The cutting hex that Teen!Severus uses in OoP does no great damage and was certainly not Dark Magic beyond the power of Madam Pomfrey (or even, possibly, James himself) to heal. We don't hear any incantation, either; Severus apparently casts the hex nonverbally, so even if it was Sectumsempra, Remus could not have heard the incantation. But I don't think it was; I think that Sectumsempra, clearly labeled "for enemies," was invented after the SWM as retaliation. But Severus could not have used it at school without being expelled, and Lupin didn't know that Snape was a DE, so it could not have been his trademark spell. We're just dealing with yet another inconsistency here. FWIW, the SWM is given in full in OoP; in DH, Harry stays well away from the action, not wanting to hear or see his father's bullying behavior. Carol, with apologies for repeating old arguments From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 28 17:01:26 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:01:26 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187633 geoff_bannister wrote: > > > Going off at a tangent, one interesting thought which occurs to me is why Snape arrived through the door of the bathroom so quickly after the spell was cast. Has anyone commented on this previously? > > > Bart: > > Unbreakable Vows can do strange things to people (for the subtlety challenged: Snape was keeping an eye on Draco). > > Geoff: > I'm aware of that. The point I was trying to make was the speed of Snape's response. After all, the incident occurred on one of the upper floors, some way from the Slytherin dungeons and even if Snape was keeping some sort of eye on Draco, via a mind link even, the seriousness of that had happened might not have been immediately clear to him. Carol responds: I agree that Snape's response was surprisingly fast and that it's quite a coincidence that he (the inventor of the spell and probably the only person who knows the countercurse) was on hand to cure it. However, Moaning Myrtle (I accidentally typed "Moaning Murder") was quite literally screaming bloody murder, and Snape is usually the first or one of the first on the spot when a commotion arises. For example, he rushed out of an Occlumency lesson, wand raised, when he heard Trelawney screaming, admittedly only one floor above. In this instance, knowing that Draco was up to something, he may have been prowling the halls rather than marking essays in his office. He may even have known that Draco had taken to hanging out in that bathroom. I wonder, too, and there's no way of knowing unless JKR tells us, whether the Unbreakable Vow (made using ropes or chains of fire) warned Snape when Draco was in danger by, say, causing his arm to burn. He certainly knew where to find Draco after the DEs arrived even though he wasn't in on the Vanishing Cabinet plan. At any rate, it's an interesting question. Was Snape following Draco? If so, why didn't he do it all the time (when he wasn't teaching or eating) instead of sitting in his office, as we know he was doing on several occasions because of the Marauder's Map? I suspect that, having placed Crabbe and Goyle in detention and most likely used Legilimency on them, he knew quite well that Draco was spending time in the RoR and that C and G were guarding it, Polyjuiced as girls, but, of course, he could not have entered it to see what he was up to any more than Harry or Dobby could. And, as I said, he may also have known that Draco was spending an inordinate amount of time in that bathroom (restroom, loo, whatever we should call it). Sorry to ramble. I agree with Geoff that keeping an eye on Draco because of the Unbreakable Vow (and possibly keeping an eye on Harry, too, for other reasons) is not sufficient explanation for his highly convenient appearance. The Vow itself may have had some sort of magical power; after all, if Draco had died, Snape would have died, too, for breaking the vow. Carol, hoping that others will contribute their thoughts on the matter From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 28 17:07:57 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:07:57 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187634 > Carol responds: > As I've said before, I don't think it was the same spell. The cutting hex that Teen!Severus uses in OoP does no great damage and was certainly not Dark Magic beyond the power of Madam Pomfrey (or even, possibly, James himself) to heal. We don't hear any incantation, either; Severus apparently casts the hex nonverbally, so even if it was Sectumsempra, Remus could not have heard the incantation. But I don't think it was; I think that Sectumsempra, clearly labeled "for enemies," was invented after the SWM as retaliation. But Severus could not have used it at school without being expelled, and Lupin didn't know that Snape was a DE, so it could not have been his trademark spell. Alla: But then if it is not the predecessor to Sectusemptra, why use the spell that cuts even if without great damage? I think it was an ancestor to the full blown Sectusemptra, so to speak, the one that was not fully developed yet. Carol: We're just dealing with yet another inconsistency here. Alla: Not in my opinion, I think it is extremely consistent, I just do not see why in such important scene JKR would use a spell which has no meaning so to speak, while on the other hand as foreshadowing to Sectusemptra makes a lot of sense to me. IMO of course. From lkotur at yahoo.com Fri Aug 28 00:31:22 2009 From: lkotur at yahoo.com (lkotur) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 00:31:22 -0000 Subject: Curse that killed Bellatrix Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187635 I just finished reading Deathly Hallows and was wondering what curse killed Bellatrix that was cast by Molly. Certainly not Avada Kedavra? Ikotur From bobbarber26 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 27 23:02:57 2009 From: bobbarber26 at yahoo.com (robert cox) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0908271323q59b6b7a7kf08b2611450087a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <809856.10623.qm@web31914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187636 Geoff wrote: When Harry used 'Sectumsempra' in Draco, he didn't *remove* anything of Draco's. He merely created cuts which, possibly, could have been handled by someone other than Snape. Lynda responded: My point is still relevant, however. JKR spent enough time making it understood throughout HBP that Snape is a healer of dark magic curse wounds whereas others, even trained healers like Madam Pomfrey are not, that it stuck out even early in the text the first me, my family and my friends read it. And that generally means, she meant to do just that. Point out that Snape had skills that she had chosen not to reveal until that point. Molly Weasley does not. Madam Pomfrey does not. Snape does. Bob: I agree with Lynda. To be honest I had not considered this before, but it makes sense because DD and every one else at the school, and the DEs, all needed and followed Snape advice with curses. Bob From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 28 18:55:14 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:55:14 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187637 Carol earlier: > > As I've said before, I don't think it was the same spell. The cutting hex that Teen!Severus uses in OoP does no great damage and was certainly not Dark Magic beyond the power of Madam Pomfrey (or even, possibly, James himself) to heal. We don't hear any incantation, either; Severus apparently casts the hex nonverbally, so even if it was Sectumsempra, Remus could not have heard the incantation. But I don't think it was; I think that Sectumsempra, clearly labeled "for enemies," was invented after the SWM as retaliation. But Severus could not have used it at school without being expelled, and Lupin didn't know that Snape was a DE, so it could not have been his trademark spell. > > Alla: > > But then if it is not the predecessor to Sectusemptra, why use the spell that cuts even if without great damage? I think it was an ancestor to the full blown Sectusemptra, so to speak, the one that was not fully developed yet. > Carol responds: Sorry to be unclear. I do think that the spell Severus used on James was a precursor to Sectumsempra, a cutting spell of some sort but more of a schoolboy hex than Dark Magic. IOW, it had the "sectum" (cutting) element but not the "always," and any competent witch or wizard could have healed it. (No one makes a big deal about it and James didn't even develop a scar so far as we know.) I just don't see how Lupin could have known about Sectumsempra or called it Snape's signature spell when there's no way that Severus could have used a full-blown Sectumsempra at school and he (Lupin) didn't even know that Snape had become a DE until after GoF. (Presumably, Sirius Black told him about Snape's showing his Dark Mark to Fudge, and Lupin would certainly have known from the Order meetings that Snape was spying on Voldemort for DD. But since Black didn't know that Snape had been a DE, it's unlikely that Lupin would have known either.) Carol, who thinks that JKR just wasn't paying attention to details here and in many other places From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 28 21:40:33 2009 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (mcrudele78) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 21:40:33 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187638 > In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/187621 > Carol wrote: > As for all the problems involved in Lupin's saying that > Sectumsempra was Snape's signature spell when he didn't even > know that Snape was a DE, Mike: Please refresh my memory, where did we find out that Lupin didn't know Snape was a DE? Obviously it has to be before GoF, because we all knew by the end of GoF that Snape was a former DE with the dark mark on his forearm. > Carol added: > I'm not sure about the amount of control [over Sectumsempra]; > > Then in 187634, Carol added: > > As I've said before, I don't think it was the same spell. The > > cutting hex that Teen!Severus uses in OoP does no great damage > > and was certainly not Dark Magic beyond the power of Madam > > Pomfrey (or even, possibly, James himself) to heal. Mike: One thing that had been emphasized over and over again was that magic, and especially dark magic, not only requires an ability but also is dependent upon intent, desire, magical strength of the caster, etc. Look at all the Crucios and all the different effects they had. Remember what Crouch!Moody said about AKs. Compare Harry's Imperios in DH to Draco/someones Imperios of Madam Rosemerta, or Voldemort's many Imperious victims. Even look at the different Stupefy and Petrificus Totalus results based on who cast them and when. To me, it's abundently clear that the same spell can result in vastly different outcomes depending on who cast it, what their intent was, and probably how resistant the victim is through their own abilities. IOW, I don't see why that cutting spell in SWM couldn't have been Sectumsempra, or as Alla suggests, one of the precursors to Sectumsempra that was scratched out and replaced by a new incantation. And if Molly can stop the bleeding from the adult, magically powerful Snape's spell, I don't think it much of a stretch to think that Madam Pomfrey could cure the same spell cast by a 16 year old Severus. > > Continuing in 187634, Carol added: > We don't hear any incantation, either; > But Severus could not have used it at school without being > expelled, Mike: I don't think not hearing any incantation is a good indicator. First off, a lot of battles are described as flashes of light, we aren't told what was or wasn't said out loud. We didn't even hear what Draco was trying to cast in the bathroom until he started his Crucio. I don't think JKR was too concerned about making sure we heard what spell was cast in all cases. Second, do you remember the MoM battle where the DE slashed Hermione with a spell? Harry mentioned that it was the same spell he used earlier but was probably not as powerful because he couldn't speak the incantation out loud. Seems there verbal spells that *can* be used non-verbally, but to a lesser affect. That might fit this case for this being a non-verbal Sectumsempra that wasn't as powerful. Third, if it was a Sectumsempra, you don't think JKR was going to give up who the HBP was back in OOTP, do ya? As to expelled; if Sev had control over the power, which I think he did, he could have used it to create just the kind of cut that James got and not get expelled. > > Carol: > > We're just dealing with yet another inconsistency here. > Alla: > > Not in my opinion, I think it is extremely consistent, I just do not see why in such important scene JKR would use a spell which has no meaning so to speak, while on the other hand as foreshadowing to Sectumsempra makes a lot of sense to me. IMO of course. Mike: Me too. :) I think that we don't give JKR enough credit for clever foreshadowing, as opposed to clumsy foreshadowing that gives away the house. JKR's ability to insert little and big items into one book only to have them show up again a book or three later was, I think, one of her great attributes. I agree with Alla, it makes no sense to throw in a meaningless curse/hex and hide it's name. And if we had heard the name of the hex, we would have gotten TMI too soon. From terrianking at aol.com Fri Aug 28 22:05:20 2009 From: terrianking at aol.com (terrianking at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:05:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scrimgeour and Harrys raised fist (Was: Umbridge's Action... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187639 In a message dated 8/28/2009 11:36:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: Carol responds: She admitted it in front of HRH, Neville, Ginny, Luna, and the Inquisitorial Squad. We know that Harry didn't report it to anyone, Hermione never tells her parents anything about Hogwarts (except that she's been appointed Prefect, which they'll "understand"She admitted it in front of HRH, Neville, Ginny, Luna, and the Inquisitorial Squad. We know that Harry didn't report it to anyone, Hermione never tells her parents anything about Hogwarts (except that she's been appointed Prefect, which they'll "understand"), and the Weasleys clearly don't know anything about it or they'd have said so, as would Neville's formidable grandmother. As for Xenophilius Lovegood, who would believe anything that the editor of the Quibbler said even if Luna reported it to him? And the parents of the Inquisitorial Squad students aren't likely to complain to the MoM that one of its members sent Dementors after Harry Potter--or that she (SNIP) Robert: Not bringing up a sensitive subject with Harry is something the elder Weasleys do a lot. Ron has told his parents many things about Harry's life, but neither talks to Harry about them - the lack of meals, being locked in his room, no birthday celebrations, etc. - they know about all this but they never discuss it with him. They just treat him with extra kindness. Even if the Umbridge incidents were merely front page news of the Quibbler, people now knew Lovegood got the facts right once in a while as a result of defying the ministry and printing Harry's interview. Someone somewhere would believe it and question it. I know I'm fighting a losing battle here as everything I've written would have happened off the page and therefore can't possibly have ever happened (poor James! Forever an arrogant bully because he was never repentant on the page!), but there is very little going on at the schools of my two kids and my numerous nieces and nephews that I don't know - from the youthful ideas of off color humor scribbled on restroom walls to which teachers repeat things kids tell them to all the other teachers. Kids talk. Maybe not directly to me in half the cases but just by walking into a room unexpectedly I hear a lot. I firmly believe it can happen in the wizarding world as well. Back to lurking... Robert [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 28 23:41:08 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 23:41:08 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187640 > Carol responds: I just don't see how Lupin could have known about Sectumsempra or called it Snape's signature spell when there's no way that Severus could have used a full-blown Sectumsempra at school and he (Lupin) didn't even know that Snape had become a DE until after GoF. Pippin: Harry automatically suspects anyone who uses Dark Magic of being a Death Eater. But most wizards don't think that way. Lupin doesn't -- he says the time for spells like Expelliarmus is past in DH, and he himself was prepared to kill Peter Pettigrew. Snape might have used Sectum Sempra in private quarrels, or in self-defense -- Voldemort's heavies aren't the only criminals in the WW. Snape would get a nasty reputation as a cruel dude, but he wouldn't appear to be a Voldemort supporter as long as left Muggles, Ministry officials and Order Members alone. In fact, if Voldemort wanted to give his spy some anti-DE cred, he might allow Snape to attack a few DE's himself. Pippin From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 29 00:41:54 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 00:41:54 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: <43e41d1e0908271318t78bf76dakd9ac97014cd12bc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynda Cordova wrote: > Well explained in the story, understandable, and there's no plot > hole there. zanooda: All the confusion comes from DD's statement in OotP that the spy was detected and thrown out *before* the end of the prophecy. I understand perfectly well how this can be seen as an inconsistency. However we now know that we shouldn't trust everything DD says :-). Besides, his exact words were: "My - our - one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building" (p.843). These words give an impression that Snape couldn't be there when Trelawney finished the prophecy. My opinion is though that the wording allows for interpretations :-). For this sentence to be a complete lie (or to create a plot hole :-)) it should sound like this: "...the eavesdropper was detected and thrown from the building only a short way into the prophecy". As it is, Snape could be "detected" during the prophecy, but "thrown out" after the prophecy :-). From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 29 01:24:45 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 01:24:45 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187642 Carol earlier: > > As for all the problems involved in Lupin's saying that Sectumsempra was Snape's signature spell when he didn't even know that Snape was a DE, > > Mike: > Please refresh my memory, where did we find out that Lupin didn't know Snape was a DE? Obviously it has to be before GoF, because we all knew by the end of GoF that Snape was a former DE with the dark mark on his forearm. Carol responds: In GoF, Sirius Black makes it clear that he doesn't know Snape was ever a DE, and if he didn't know, Lupin wouldn't have known, either. (Certainly, the fewer who knew the better he could perform his role as spy for Dumbledore.) I agree that Lupin must have found out soon after Snape revealed his Dark Mark to Fudge in the presence of Sirius Black (and two Weasleys). But even Fudge seems taken aback by it; apparently, he didn't know either (or he didn't know about the Dark Mark, one of the two). I don't think that Snape's having a DE ever got beyond Dumbledore and the Wizengamot. If Rita Skeeter had known, she'd have mentioned it when she talked about Dumbledore's questionable choices for teaching staff in the article attacking Hagrid's ancestry. Mike: > To me, it's abundently clear that the same spell can result in vastly different outcomes depending on who cast it, what their intent was, and probably how resistant the victim is through their own abilities. IOW, I don't see why that cutting spell in SWM couldn't have been Sectumsempra, or as Alla suggests, one of the precursors to Sectumsempra that was scratched out and replaced by a new incantation. > Carol responds: As I said in another post, I also think that the hex that Severus used on James was a precursor to Sectumsempra, not Sectumsempra itself, for the reasons I've already given. I don't think that Teen!Snape had as much control over his spells as the adult Snape, and, as you say, he crossed out and revised his spells several times. But regardless, since Severus didn't speak the incantation, Remus couldn't have known about the spell either way. (and, of course, there's the whole problem of how anyone learned Levicorpus, a "" spell, and why that spell would have been popular in MWPPS's fifth year ("S" standing for Severus") when it was a sixth-year Potions book. We've been over and over this ground, so I don't think that anyone is going to convince anyone else. Mike: > And if Molly can stop the bleeding from the adult, magically powerful Snape's spell, I don't think it much of a stretch to think that Madam Pomfrey could cure the same spell cast by a 16 year old Severus. Carol: If it's Dark Magic, and Snape, it's inventor says that it is, neither Molly nor Madam Pomfrey should have the knowledge to stop the bleeding. (If Molly had restored George's ear, I'd have been happy for George but angry with JKR for an even bigger inconsistency.) It's clear that Molly didn't perform Snape's complicated countercurse. Maybe she applied Dittany, which has suddenly acquired greater healing powers in DH. :-) At any rate, it makes nonsense of Snape a healer of Dark Magic spells that even Dumbledore can't cure if Molly (or Madam Pomfrey) can heal Sectumsempra. BTW, if anyone doesn't believe that JKR is inconsistent even in small matters in the same book, check out the number of hours' worth of Felix Felicis potion Harry's vial contains. In one place it's twelve, in another, twenty-four. And JKR has said that she doesn't read her books once they're in print. Of course, there are inconsistencies, and, IMO, Lupin's claim that Snape was known for casting Sectumsempra is one of them. If that's the case, why wasn't he expelled from Hogwarts and/or why doesn't the whole WW know that he was a Death Eater? Carol, who has used up her quota of posts for the day From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 29 01:50:06 2009 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 01:50:06 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187643 > Carol earlier: > > > As for all the problems involved in Lupin's saying that Sectumsempra was Snape's signature spell when he didn't even know that Snape was a DE, > > > > Mike: > > Please refresh my memory, where did we find out that Lupin didn't know Snape was a DE? Obviously it has to be before GoF, because we all knew by the end of GoF that Snape was a former DE with the dark mark on his forearm. > > Carol responds: > In GoF, Sirius Black makes it clear that he doesn't know Snape was ever a DE, and if he didn't know, Lupin wouldn't have known, either. Alla: I do not understand it. Are you saying that Lupin and Sirius must know the same things and not know the same things? Putting aside the fact that Sirius spent twelve years in hellish prison and Lupin spent twelve years we do not know where, but definitely not in prison, which to me already implies that Sirius would not have known a lot of things in the outside world and Remus would have known them, how does that work out exactly even if Sirius was not in prison? From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat Aug 29 13:52:38 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 13:52:38 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187644 Carol: Of course, there are inconsistencies, and, IMO, Lupin's claim that Snape was known for casting Sectumsempra is one of them. If that's the case, why wasn't he expelled from Hogwarts and/or why doesn't the whole WW know that he was a Death Eater? Pippin: I've already responded to how it could have happened. But making this an inconsistency misses JKR's point, IMO. There's a bitter, "I should have known" flavor to "Sectumsempra was always a specialty of Snape's." Lupin is telling us he should never have believed that someone so savage would remain loyal. Of course that's especially rich considering the speaker. The larger point of DH, IMO, is that everyone has a savage side, and it's wishful thinking to suppose that anyone, even a hero, can keep it under control completely. Pippin From mcrudele78 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 29 14:11:54 2009 From: mcrudele78 at yahoo.com (mcrudele78) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 14:11:54 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187645 > > Mike earlier: > > Please refresh my memory, where did we find out that > > Lupin didn't know Snape was a DE? > Carol responded: > In GoF, Sirius Black makes it clear that he doesn't know Snape > was ever a DE, and if he didn't know, Lupin wouldn't have known, > either. > I don't think that Snape's having been a DE ever got beyond > Dumbledore and the Wizengamot. Mike now: OK, I guess we have a different interpretation of canon. For one, and here again I agree with Alla's take, Sirius spent 12 years in prison where I don't think there were a lot of visits from outsiders bringing him a Daily Prophet. So there are a lot of things that Sirius wouldn't have known *for sure*. As to whether SB knew that Snape was a DE, he certainly suspects him, but he doesn't know that he ever got *caught*. Well, he didn't, did he? Dumbledore recruited him and vouched for him to the Wizengamut sometime after the windswept hill scene. Back to Lupin; Clearly, Dumbledore knew Snape was a DE by the time of the windswept hill scene. Also, we know that a lot of people were accused of being DEs after Voldemort's fall, and a lot of them got off through various tactics. I'm sure that Snape was suspected right along with Malfoy, the Lestranges, etc. But Snape got off via Dumbledore's testimony. Does that mean that nobody else besides DD thought that Snape was a DE? I'd doubt it. Could they prove it? Probably not. So don't you suppose that Lupin along with some others thought that Snape had been a DE that got off somehow? Ron, because of his dad, is sure that Malfoy was a DE. I would think that Lupin, being much closer to the situation with Snape, was sure that Snape was a DE that got off somehow. And isn't that take exactly the same thing that Sirius was telling HRH in the cave? > Carol: > > But regardless, since Severus didn't speak the incantation, > Remus couldn't have known about the spell either way. Mike: I've already given my thoughts on the 'not speaking' part, so I won't rehash that aspect. The SWM cutting spell could well have been a precursor to the final version, I agree that that seems likely. But after Severus finalized Sectumsempra, wouldn't you suppose that he actually had used it on "enemies"? It's not a killing curse, bleeding from it can be stopped, it's just that damage from it can't be repaired without the countercurse. JKR painted a picture of Snape's time at Hogwarts being a little more wild west than Harry's. It's not hard for me to believe that the hexes, jinxes, and curses were a little more savage at that time. So it's not hard for me to believe that the inventor of Sectumsempra did use the curse more than once during his time at school. Lily complains to Sev that his 'friends' used dark magic on Mary McDonald, it seems they weren't expelled. Why couldn't Snape have used Sectumsempra a few times and not gotten expelled? Snape knew what the curse did, he didn't have to chop off a person's arm with it. Besides, Harry *did* use Sectumsempra at Hogwarts, and he did a bang up job on Draco with it, and Harry didn't get expelled. > Carol: > > If it's Dark Magic, and Snape, it's inventor says that it is, > neither Molly nor Madam Pomfrey should have the knowledge to > stop the bleeding. > It's clear that Molly didn't perform Snape's complicated > countercurse. Mike: Like I said above, it's not a killing curse. Clearly it doesn't perform exactly as it's Latin name implies, it doesn't 'cut ever'. Or maybe it does cut ever but it doesn't bleed ever. Maybe you can't ever repair the cut, but you can stop the bleeding from the cut and you are left with an open wound, or in George's case, without an ear. That is unless you know the countercurse. > Carol: > > At any rate, it makes nonsense of Snape, a healer of Dark Magic > spells that even Dumbledore can't cure, if Molly (or Madam > Pomfrey) can heal Sectumsempra. Mike: How about if they can stop the bleeding, but they can't heal (or cure) the wound? Mike, who knows that JKR has inconsistencies but doesn't find this particular case as one of them. :-) From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Sat Aug 29 07:03:21 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 07:03:21 -0000 Subject: Rowling's Knowledge (was: Two Plot Problems) In-Reply-To: <4A9737FB.9060105@moosewise.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187646 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Bart: > > > The point is that it also depends on how good J. K. Rowling's Latin > is. When trying to tie in what happens in the books to real world > knowledge, we have to remember that we are looking not at the current > state of knowledge, but the then current state of Rowling's knowledge. > Consider, for example, the mental illness of Voldemort. He may or may > not be sociopathic/psychotic by psychiatric standards, but if you look > up the illnesses in an encyclopedia and base it on that, Morty has all > the symptoms of one, with the exception of his ability to stick to a > long, complex plan. > > Bart > > Zfshiruba: I really like your point. My point was really that the spell wouldn't have had the right intention. I jumped to a conclusion when I first read the incantation, and that's despite four years of 4.0ing Latin. Harry's an olympic level conclusion jumper. Hermione would have known basically what the spell did instantly. We see how good her Latin is in PoA. Regardless of whether Harry's Latin is at J.K.'s level or the average Latin students, it would have taken him somewhat longer, and the erroneous conclusion would already be in his memory. First impressions and all. Zfshiruba, who is far more used to seeing scindo than seco. From zfshiruba at yahoo.com Sat Aug 29 07:24:03 2009 From: zfshiruba at yahoo.com (zfshiruba) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 07:24:03 -0000 Subject: Canon Veelas WAS Re: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187647 > > kamion: > > just wondering when the female spirit is called a Veela ( first > > declension noun in Latin) should the male version of it then be > > called Veelus or Veelo? > Geoff: > My Latin grammar would suggest Veelus (second declension). I'm not > sure whether any reference to male Veelas is made in canon but on > odd occasions when I've been idly flicking through fan fiction and > found obscure AU fiction involving these creatures, they've usually > been referred to as "male Veelas". Zf: Actually, it shouldn't be either. Veela is an Anglicized spelling of the original Slavic pronunciations; Wi?a (Polish), Vila (Serbia and Croatia). So technically male Veelas should be the masculine form of one of the original pronunciations: Veely (singular) or Veeli (plural) [Polish]. Unfortunately, English only has gender forms on some of our pronouns; thus we get male Veelas. Zfshiruba, who apologizes for being a Latin/Linguistics nerd From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat Aug 29 14:57:47 2009 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 14:57:47 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187648 > > Carol responds: > I agree that Snape's response was surprisingly fast and that it's quite a coincidence that he (the inventor of the spell and probably the only person who knows the countercurse) was on hand to cure it. snip > Sorry to ramble. I agree with Geoff that keeping an eye on Draco because of the Unbreakable Vow (and possibly keeping an eye on Harry, too, for other reasons) is not sufficient explanation for his highly convenient appearance. The Vow itself may have had some sort of magical power; after all, if Draco had died, Snape would have died, too, for breaking the vow. Potioncat: It was pretty darn quick. I don't see it as a coincidence so much, since we knew Snape was looking out for both boys; and the whole point is that Harry learned the spell from Snape's book. Yet Snape has a history of being around when Harry least suspects--lurking in dark corners and such. He could have been patroling around the area he knew Draco to visit. We know that there is a level of communication between Dark Marks. Perhaps his Dark Mark alerted Snape that Draco was in some sort of danger when Draco and Harry first started dueling. So, while it was a rapid response, I don't find it a plot hole, or a big stretch to think he would be there. From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk Sat Aug 29 16:05:35 2009 From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (geoff_bannister) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 16:05:35 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: Potioncat: > So, while it was a rapid response, I don't find it a plot hole, or a big stretch to think he would be there. Geoff: Just to clarify, I was not suggesting in any way it was another plot hole. I was just mulling over the matter. As folk have suggested, it could have been very serendipitous or some sort of link through the Vow. Some of these little events can be more intriguing than the big ones. As another example, what would have happened at Kings Cross in 1991 if Harry hadn't overheard Molly? From thedossetts at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 16:50:02 2009 From: thedossetts at gmail.com (rtbthw_mom) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 16:50:02 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "geoff_bannister" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > > geoff_bannister wrote: > > > Going off at a tangent, one interesting thought which occurs to me is why > > > Snape arrived through the door of the bathroom so quickly after the spell > > > was cast. Has anyone commented on this previously? > > > Bart: > > Unbreakable Vows can do strange things to people (for the subtlety > > challenged: Snape was keeping an eye on Draco). > > Geoff: > I'm aware of that. The point I was trying to make was the speed of Snape's > response. After all, the incident occurred on one of the upper floors, some > way from the Slytherin dungeons and even if Snape was keeping some sort > of eye on Draco, via a mind link even, the seriousness of that had happened > might not have been immediately clear to him. Just had a thought. Given Snape's intellectual brilliance, it is entirely possible that after seeing MWP&P's map, he could have made his own; it would have come in especially useful during Harry's 6th year when he (Snape) needed to keep tabs on Draco. It would also give him a reason to be sitting in his office, all those times when Harry found him there that year. I know, I'm probably really stretching at this point. ~Pat > From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 29 17:41:06 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:41:06 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187651 Carol earlier: > > In GoF, Sirius Black makes it clear that he doesn't know Snape was ever a DE, and if he didn't know, Lupin wouldn't have known, either. > > Alla: > > I do not understand it. Are you saying that Lupin and Sirius must know the same things and not know the same things? > > Putting aside the fact that Sirius spent twelve years in hellish prison and Lupin spent twelve years we do not know where, but definitely not in prison, which to me already implies that Sirius would not have known a lot of things in the outside world and Remus would have known them, how does that work out exactly even if Sirius was not in prison? > Carol responds: Sirius Black was thrown into prison almost immediately after Godric's Hollow, by which time Snape was teaching at Hogwarts and long since spying for Dumbledore. At that point the DEs disbanded. If Black didn't know at that time that Snape was a DE, the other Order members, including Lupin, wouldn't know, either (and DD would have kept Snape's DE background as secret as possible to protect the identity of his spy). The Order was disbanded at that point, and Snape's hearing was apparently kept secret. I don't see how Lupin or McGonagall or anyone else not present at Karkaroff's hearing (aside from some DEs and Voldemort) could have known that Snape was a DE. And he certainly wasn't famous for casting Sectumsempra, or Rita Skeeter would have mentioned it when she listed Dumbledore's questionable hiring choices. Also, if Lupin had known that Snape had been a DE, I can't see him trusting Snape sufficiently to drink a monthly wolfbane potion brewed by him no matter how good Snape was at Potions or how much Dumbledore trusted him. And surely he would have mentioned it in the Shrieking Shack in PoA if he'd known. Carol, just drawing conclusions from the admittedly limited evidence available to us From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 29 18:39:55 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 18:39:55 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187652 Carol earlier: > > In GoF, Sirius Black makes it clear that he doesn't know Snape was ever a DE, and if he didn't know, Lupin wouldn't have known, either. I don't think that Snape's having been a DE ever got beyond > > Dumbledore and the Wizengamot. > Mike responded: > OK, I guess we have a different interpretation of canon. Carol again: Yes, I agree with that much! :-) Mike: For one, and here again I agree with Alla's take, Sirius spent 12 years in prison where I don't think there were a lot of visits from outsiders bringing him a Daily Prophet. So there are a lot of things that Sirius wouldn't have known *for sure*. > > As to whether SB knew that Snape was a DE, he certainly suspects him, but he doesn't know that he ever got *caught*. Well, he didn't, did he? Dumbledore recruited him and vouched for him to the Wizengamut sometime after the windswept hill scene. Carol responds: As I've said in another post, by the time Black was arrested, Voldemort had already been vaporized and Snape had been working with or for Dumbledore for quite some time. He was already teaching at Hogwarts. If Black didn't know by then, Lupin wouldn't have known, either. Snape's hearing clearly wasn't publicized. How could Lupin have known? And Black doesn't think that Snape was a DE despite his association with known DEs. Black tells HRH in GoF, "But as far as I know, Snape was never accused of being a Death Eater." He states that Snape was clever enough to keep himself out of trouble, but adds, "There's still the fact that Dumbledore trusts Snape, and I know Dumbledore trusts where a lot of other people wouldn't but I can't see him letting Snape teach at Hogwarts if he'd ever worked for Voldemort" (GoF Am. ed. 531-2). I suspect that Lupin thought much the same way. Mike: > Back to Lupin; Clearly, Dumbledore knew Snape was a DE by the time of the windswept hill scene. Carol responds: *Dumbledore* did, but he also knew that Snape had overheard the Prophecy, which no one else knew. (Even Aberforth and Trelawney only knew that he'd been eavesdropping on the job interview.) That's no indication that anyone else knew. (In fact, I'm not even sure how DD knew. Snape was a *spy,* and he could hardly have done that job effectively if his being a DE was widely known.) Mike: Also, we know that a lot of people were accused of being DEs after Voldemort's fall, and a lot of them got off through various tactics. I'm sure that Snape was suspected right along with Malfoy, the Lestranges, etc. But Snape got off via Dumbledore's testimony. Carol responds: See above. Snape's hearing wasn't publicized, and even if Lupin suspected him of being at DE at some point because of his friends, his being hired by Dumbledore to teach Potions would have ended those suspicions, just as they ended Black's (and Black hated Snape more than Lupin did). Mike: > Does that mean that nobody else besides DD thought that Snape was a DE? I'd doubt it. Could they prove it? Probably not. So don't you suppose that Lupin along with some others thought that Snape had been a DE that got off somehow? Ron, because of his dad, is sure that Malfoy was a DE. I would think that Lupin, being much closer to the situation with Snape, was sure that Snape was a DE that got off somehow. And isn't that take exactly the same thing that Sirius was telling HRH in the cave? Carol responds: But Malfoy and Snape are different cases. Malfoy is a known Pure-Blood supremacist who throws his money and power around; Snape is a Hogwarts teacher. Whatever his reputation for knowing about Dark magic and whatever his associations with known DEs, Snape was, in Black's words, "clever and cunning enough" to keep his DE membership hidden (which, no doubt, was why Voldemort wanted him as a spy. So, like Black, Lupin may at one time have had his suspicions, but his behavior toward Snape in PoA indicates that he now attributes any enmity Snape still feels toward MWPP to boyhood rivalries and the so-called Prank. There's no indication whatever that he distrusts or suspects him (in fact, it's the other way around). I don't see how he could have known that Snape had been a DE before he showed his Dark Mark in GoF, the point at which Black found out. We can be sure that Black reported that information to Lupin, who, like McGonagall, only trusted Snape after that point because Dumbledore did. Mike: > JKR painted a picture of Snape's time at Hogwarts being a little more wild west than Harry's. It's not hard for me to believe that the hexes, jinxes, and curses were a little more savage at that time. So it's not hard for me to believe that the inventor of Sectumsempra did use the curse more than once during his time at school. > > Lily complains to Sev that his 'friends' used dark magic on Mary McDonald, it seems they weren't expelled. Why couldn't Snape have used Sectumsempra a few times and not gotten expelled? Snape knew what the curse did, he didn't have to chop off a person's arm with it. Besides, Harry *did* use Sectumsempra at Hogwarts, and he did a bang up job on Draco with it, and Harry didn't get expelled. Carol responds: Actually, Lily says that Mulciber *tried* to use Dark Magic on Mary McDonald. He didn't succeed. Dark Magic isn't tolerated at Hogwarts. Even Durmstrang, which expelled Grindelwald, had limits on the spells that it would tolerate. Sectumsempra could have killed Draco, and would have done so had it not been for Snape (who, we notice, does not request Harry's expulsion on this occasion). If Draco had died because of Sectumsempra, Harry would not only have been expelled, he would almost certainly have gone to Azkaban (unless Dumbledore could somehow have prevented that). Carol earlier: > > > > If it's Dark Magic, and Snape, it's inventor says that it is, neither Molly nor Madam Pomfrey should have the knowledge to stop the bleeding. It's clear that Molly didn't perform Snape's complicated countercurse. > > Mike: > Like I said above, it's not a killing curse. Carol responds: It's a curse "for enemies" that *can* be used to kill. Draco would have bled to death if Snape hadn't saved him. Madam Pomfrey, who couldn't have saved either Katie Bell or Dumbledore, could not have saved Draco, either. As I said, only Snape, who invented the spell, would have known that complicated countercurse, which he also must have invented. Mike: Clearly it doesn't perform exactly as it's Latin name implies, it doesn't 'cut ever'. Or maybe it does cut ever but it doesn't bleed ever. Maybe you can't ever repair the cut, but you can stop the bleeding from the cut and you are left with an open wound, or in George's case, without an ear. That is unless you know the countercurse. Carol responds: Or maybe JKR is just inconsistent, as she was with Dittany. I agree that George's ear could not have been restored without the countercurse, and, of course, he still had a hole in his head because of the ear canal, but Molly should not have been able to stop the bleeding, either. But, then, the spell does mean "cut always," not "bleed always," so maybe Madam Pomfrey could have stopped Draco's bleeding but not magically stitched him back together, so to speak. Just as Molly couldn't have restored George's ear, Draco would have had unhealable gaping wounds that probably wouldn't have been survivable. Teen!Severus could not have performed that spell without being expelled, and I doubt that he would have made the incantation known to anyone else. He may have been planning to use it on MWPP once he got out of Hogwarts, but clearly, that never happened. They as Order members never confronted Snape as a DE or we'd have heard about it, and Lupin would never have trusted Snape to make his wolfbane potion. > > Carol: > > > > At any rate, it makes nonsense of Snape, a healer of Dark Magic spells that even Dumbledore can't cure, if Molly (or Madam Pomfrey) can heal Sectumsempra. > > Mike: > How about if they can stop the bleeding, but they can't heal (or cure) the wound? > > > Mike, who knows that JKR has inconsistencies but doesn't find this particular case as one of them. :-) > Carol: I suppose we can compromise on that notion, but it still seems just as inconsistent to me as the depiction of Dittany in books six and seven. Carol, who is mainly concerned with Lupin's statement about Snape being known for casting Sectumsempra, which makes no sense to her for the reasons already stated From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 30 16:58:05 2009 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 30 Aug 2009 16:58:05 -0000 Subject: Weekly Chat, 8/30/2009, 1:00 pm Message-ID: <1251651485.8.33578.m4@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187653 Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal Weekly Chat Sunday August 30, 2009 1:00 pm - 1:00 pm (This event repeats every week.) Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Notes: Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour. To get to the HPfGU room follow this link: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574 Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want to be called. Enter the password: hpfguchat Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. 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URL: From malfoydancing at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 19:11:32 2009 From: malfoydancing at gmail.com (malfoydancing at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:11:32 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187654 rlevatter wrote: > When first used by Harry, inadvertently on Malfoy, Snape controls > the damage easily with counterspells and tells Malfoy there will > likely be no lasting damage with dittany applied. > > Yet when the same spell is used by Snape, inadvertently hitting > George, the damage (a severed ear) is irreversible, because it was > "dark magic". alla/malfoydancing (I'll be lowercase as there's already an Alla): I agree with the comments on Snape's having an inside knowledge of the counter-curse, and on intent: Snape *was* a death eater, deep in dark magic before that, and brought to Dumbledore's side reluctantly (at first), whereas Harry cast sectumsempra on Draco without even knowing what it did. A dark *spell* does not necessarily mean dark magic, cf. Bellatrix's comments on having to mean unforgivables. Harry does not get to grips with crucio or imperio (the two forms of dark magic he does show his ability to use) till book 7, and he's still expelliarmusing at the beginning of that (and end...). In chapter 33 we're told that the sectumsempra was "intended for the Death Eater?s wand hand" but "hit George instead". Wouldn't that have blown Snape's cover, assuming the death eaters knew it was his spell (they might not have, but in his first round as a Death Eater I can imagine him going 'Dear Voldemort, I invented this really cool curse...')? The fact he attacked a DE could be missed/glossed over in the commotion of battle, but actually cutting off George's ear would have done his reputation with the DEs a lot more good. _Unless_ Snape, a master of legilimency and occlumency and with some time to prepare those memories (all year), modified/presented a particular version of them to Harry to best win Harry's trust ? would he have done that? I think JKR means us to take the memories of that chapter as Absolutely True, but this *is* Snape, and Snape's going to be a lot better at presenting memories in a particular way (if not fully editing them) than Slughorn. Is Snape's reputation with the DEs one of being _capable_, or has he cultivated a reputation of being rather incompetent in managing destruction? The latter would make sense (if not for Snape's ego), but Voldemort has a high opinion of him. alla From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 30 20:47:32 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:47:32 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187655 alla/malfoydancing wrote: > In chapter 33 we're told that the sectumsempra was "intended for the Death Eater's wand hand" but "hit George instead". Wouldn't that have blown Snape's cover, Carol responds: Even though Portrait!Dumbledore warns Snape not to blow his cover, I think that Harry's interpretation (conveyed via the narrator) is correct and that the spell *was* intended for the Death Eater's wand hand. Otherwise, there's no point in presenting a corrected version in "the Prince's Tale." In keeping with his statement to Dumbledore that he now watches people die only when he can't save them (as was the case with Charity Burbage). Rather than let the DE kill Lupin, Snape saves him by *keeping* his cover and casting Sectumsempra. I think that he wanted his voice to be heard; otherwise, accomplished wizard that he was, he'd have cast it nonverbally. (I still don't see how Lupin could have considered Sectumsempra to be Snape's signature spell, but I'll ignore that for the moment.) It's most unlikely (IMO) that he was actually aiming at George (who might have been Harry as far as Snape knew and, in any case, could have been killed if the spell missed his ear and hit his brain). My interpretation (and I have no idea whether anyone else shares it) is that the DE heard Snape's voice and swerved out of the way at the last second so that the spell, continuing on its course, hit George's ear instead of the DE's hand. I think that if Snape had hit his intended target, he would have immediately caught the bleeding DE, escorting him to the ground (as another DE did when his comrade was Stunned), apologized profusely for "missing" Lupin, Summoned the severed hand, and restored it using the countercurse that saved Draco (or, if that's not possible, at least stopped the bleeding, healed the cuts, and saved the DE's life). Either way, they'd both be out of the action long enough to give Lupin and "Harry" (George) a better chance to escape. Carol, who still doesn't understand how Snape and Portrait!DD could know that the injured "Harry" was George since the Seven Potters chase was not covered in the Daily Prophet From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 30 23:34:39 2009 From: catlady at wicca.net (catlady_de_los_angeles) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 23:34:39 -0000 Subject: Prophecy / Umbridge's quill and Harry's fist / Dementors / Sectumsempra Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187656 Potioncat wrote in : << I've worked out a way the prophecy could work with only DD hearing it. Neither Snape nor LV would need to know about it before Godrick's Hollow, although some steps would be the same. It would happen like this ----hey, where did everybody go? >> Go on, go on. Would it require DD being even more manipulative than he was in canon? Carol wrote in : << How would anyone except the students (only two that we know of, Harry and Lee Jordan) know about the quill that used their own blood to write lines? >> I can't figure out just how close Lee Jordan is to his best friends Fred and George -- in which book do the Twins say they must hurry off to see the secret passage that Lee just found, but they think it's the one they found first year (implying that they never told Lee about that one)? However, it seems to me that Lee Jordan is more outgoing and less secretive than Harry. Even if he and the Twins keep some secrets from each other, I don't know a reason why he wouldn't tell Fred and George, and maybe a number of lesser friends, about Umbridge's quill. Maybe he even told his parents during the summer holiday. Word could have gotten around widely starting with Lee. Is it possible that Arthur could have told Molly about the widespread gossip at the Ministry about Scrimgeour having kept Umbridge on despite what Lee Jordan's parents said she'd done to their son, or would Molly inevitably have revealed to her kids, Harry, and the readers that she knew about it? Carol wrote in : << the raised fist is just one more instance of the miscommunication motif that appears in all the books >> It never occurred to me as a reader that Scrimgeour didn't correctly understand Harry's fist, until you said so. We need Rowling to tell us (if we can believe her answer) what she intended. If she intended that Scrimgeour understood, as does the reader, that Harry's fist meant: "Remember what Umbridge did to me", then we allow as how Scrimgeour somehow knew about Umbridge's quill and kept her on anyway. I don't think it's so hard to believe that word got around starting from Lee Jordan. If she intended Harry raising his fist to Scrimgeour to be yet another miscommunication, should she have put in something somewhere to make it clear that Scrimgeour didn't understand? Was she counting on perceptive readers and literary scholars to figure it out and tell the rest of us? Has anyone but you published this interpretation? Bart replied to Carol in : << Do you really think that Harry would have done that if he didn't believe that Scrimgeour knew damned well exactly what it was? >> But Harry's beliefs are not always correct. << Can you give any logical reason why Harry and/or Dumbledore would not have told the Ministry about her sending the dementors? And, if there is one, why we weren't told about it? >> Harry didn't tell the Ministry because he thinks that the Ministry is his enemy. Dumbledore probably knew way back at Harry's trial that it was Umbridge who had sent the Dementors, shown when he, as barrister, said something about either the Dementors had been sent to Little Whinging by a Ministry official or this was a case of Dementors acting not on instructions from Ministry officials. He might have neglected to tell Scrimgeour because, in a somewhat spiteful way, he thought Scrimgeour ought to be able to figure it out himself, or else not deserve to know it. More likely, it was part of Puppetmaster Dumbledore manipulating everyone as I mentioned at the top of this post. Harry has some valid reasons to think that the whole Ministry except for Arthur and Perkins is his enemy, altho' he appears to believe that the whole chain of command knew about what Umbridge was doing. After all, in a Muggle government, there would be some kind of paper trail, albeit highly classified, if the White House Chief of Staff or even the CIA Director borrowed a couple of Dementors to sic on one of our nation's enemies (implication: Fidel Castro, real meaning: some teen-ager with a smart mouth on him). The wizarding world is so very poor at organizational skills that there probably isn't even a log of when Ministry officials visit Azkaban to 'inspect'. I was thinking that a human witness could give testimony about what wasn't logged: "The Minister's deputy came on inspection on Aug 1 and took two Dementors with her when she left", but then I realized she wouldn't even have to kill a witness, just Memory Charm him. Anyway, if the Dementors could shrink small enough to hide in her handbag, all the witness could say was that she had been there. But then I realized there might not be any human witness. Surely there is no human official stationed at Azkaban - being surrounded by so many Dementors could be fatal. Maybe there isn't even a human ferryman to transport whoever to Azkaban - they Apparate, they Floo, they could have enchanted a boat so that when not anchored, it just back and forth between Azkaban and the mainland. Is it possible to Apparate to Azkaban? If so, one would think that more prisoners would have been rescued by their outside friends. But if only one fireplace can Floo to Azkaban and that fireplace is in a secure area in the Ministry building, then they wouldn't feel any need to guard it, and any Ministry employee could just wander over there and Floo to Azkaban with no permission and no witness ... which would have been a simpler way for Barty Sr rescue his son, no? Carol wrote in : << I just don't see how Lupin could have known about Sectumsempra or called it Snape's signature spell when there's no way that Severus could have used a full-blown Sectumsempra at school and he (Lupin) didn't even know that Snape had become a DE until after GoF. >> I acknowledge that this is a real problem, unlike how Ron and others had seen Draco around school with the Hand of Glory. That latter is just so obvious: Draco had bought it by Owl Order during second year, soon after he first saw it at Borgin and BUrke, and long before students and parcels were being searched with Dark Magic detectors, and he showed it off for bragging purposes. It is possible to make up a story to explain away Lupin's knowledge of Snape's Sectumsempra. Maybe in seventh year at school or in the year or two after leaving school, Snape became involved in high level competitive sport duelling which allowed Dark (but not Unforgivable) curses and THAT is where Sectumsempra became known as Snape's trademark curse. Even tho' Snape casts it silently, duel fans would ask 'Wow, what was that curse?' and Snape might answer 'Sectumsempra. I invented it'. From zanooda2 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 31 02:10:07 2009 From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 02:10:07 -0000 Subject: Prophecy / Umbridge's quill and Harry's fist / Dementors / Sectumsempra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187657 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "catlady_de_los_angeles" wrote: > I was thinking that a human witness could give testimony > about what wasn't logged: "The Minister's deputy came on > inspection on Aug 1 and took two Dementors with her when > she left" zanooda: I thought ministry workers don't have to go to Azkaban if they need a Dementor. In GoF Fudge just summoned one to Hogwarts (the one that Kissed Crouch Jr.) when he thought he was in danger, why couldn't Umbridge do the same :-)? I don't know if Fudge summoned it from Azkaban or some other place, but either way he didn't have to go anywhere to get that Dementor, the Dementor came to him :-). From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon Aug 31 02:24:50 2009 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 02:24:50 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187658 > > Carol, who still doesn't understand how Snape and Portrait!DD could know that the injured "Harry" was George since the Seven Potters chase was not covered in the Daily Prophet > Pippin: There's a portrait link between the Ministry and the Headmaster's office. I'm sure lots of Ministry/DE news found its way to Dumbledore. According to Lupin, every person connected with Harry was questioned by the Death Eaters/Ministry as soon as Voldemort took over. That would certainly include the Weasley Twins, and George's missing ear would have been obvious. It wouldn't be hard to figure out who Snape's victim had been. Pippin From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Aug 31 05:01:37 2009 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 01:01:37 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Two Plot Problems Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187659 In a message dated 8/30/2009 3:48:11 P.M. Central Daylight Time, justcarol67 at yahoo.com writes: Carol, who still doesn't understand how Snape and Portrait!DD could know that the injured "Harry" was George since the Seven Potters chase was not covered in the Daily Prophet Hmmm. Maybe one of the other headmasters heard something about it while visiting other portraits of themselves. Maybe Dumbledore himself heard about it that way. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Aug 31 19:37:59 2009 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 19:37:59 -0000 Subject: Curse that killed Bellatrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187660 > Ikotur: > I just finished reading Deathly Hallows and was wondering what curse killed Bellatrix that was cast by Molly. Certainly not Avada Kedavra? > Zara: I don't see why not Avada Kedavra. We've seen other angry good guys in dangerous or emotionally charged situations use the other Unforgivables in DH. Why suppose Molly would not? I think Molly was trying to kill Bellatrix ("You will never touch our children again!"), so the particular spell she used is not important to me. From malfoydancing at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 19:41:46 2009 From: malfoydancing at gmail.com (malfoydancing at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:41:46 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B0CE556-1E71-488C-BB77-C99A1D853D2B@gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 187661 Carol: Rather than let the DE kill Lupin, Snape saves him by *keeping* his cover and casting Sectumsempra. I think that he wanted his voice to be heard; otherwise, accomplished wizard that he was, he'd have cast it nonverbally. alla: What tells us that it was a verbal spell? Quite sneaky if it was (if it hadn't missed) ? almost a hint to the Order that Snape's still ambiguous, though compared to killing Dumbledore, not a very forceful hint. Carol: It's most unlikely (IMO) that he was actually aiming at George (who might have been Harry as far as Snape knew alla: That's a good point ? I had forgotten Snape didn't know who Harry was, although he could, like Voldemort, have made an educated guess. Nor do we know exactly what he may have hinted to Mundungus. From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Aug 31 20:25:34 2009 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:25:34 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: <4B0CE556-1E71-488C-BB77-C99A1D853D2B@gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187662 > alla: > > What tells us that it was a verbal spell? Quite sneaky if it was (if > it hadn't missed) ? almost a hint to the Order that Snape's still > ambiguous, though compared to killing Dumbledore, not a very forceful > hint. Zara: It says so in the book. The incantation was not merely spoken, it was "shouted" by Snape. I don't think any of Snape's positive actions in DH were intended as hints. It seems more likely that he was simply doing what he thought was best in those instances. I think he understood that his "murder" of Dumbledore amd his obvious alignment with Voldemort as the new Headmaster of Hogwarts would make much bigger impredssions, that nothing short of a full explanation would wipe from the minds of his fellow "good guys". From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Aug 31 20:45:40 2009 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:45:40 -0000 Subject: Two Plot Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187663 > alla: > Is Snape's reputation with the DEs one of being _capable_, or has he > cultivated a reputation of being rather incompetent in managing > destruction? The latter would make sense (if not for Snape's ego), > but Voldemort has a high opinion of him. Zara: I would say the evidence favors the view that other DEs would have regarded Snape as more than merely competent at the Dark Arts/duelling. Consider for example their reaction to his appearance on the Tower in HBP: > HBP: > Snape said nothing, but walked forward and pushed Malfoy roughly out of the way. The three Death Eaters fell back without a word. Even the werewolf seemed cowed. From montavilla47 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 31 20:48:41 2009 From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:48:41 -0000 Subject: Prophecy / Umbridge's quill and Harry's fist / Dementors / Sectumsempra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187664 catlady_de_los_angeles: > Carol wrote in : > > << How would anyone except the students (only two that we know of, Harry and Lee Jordan) know about the quill that used their own blood to write lines? >> > catlady_de_los_angeles: > ... it seems to me that Lee Jordan is more outgoing and less secretive than Harry. Even if he and the Twins keep some secrets from each other, I don't know a reason why he wouldn't tell Fred and George, and maybe a number of lesser friends, about Umbridge's quill. Maybe he even told his parents during the summer holiday. Word could have gotten around widely starting with Lee. Is it possible that Arthur could have told Molly about the widespread gossip at the Ministry about Scrimgeour having kept Umbridge on despite what Lee Jordan's parents said she'd done to their son, or would Molly inevitably have revealed to her kids, Harry, and the readers that she knew about it? Montavilla47: While it's possible that these things could have happened, I think it's a bit complicated and relies on a lot of extra-canonical inference. For one thing, the culture at Hogwarts seems to be that kids *don't* tell their parents what is going on at school, especially in Gryffindor. The only thing that Hermione tells her parents about is that she was made prefect. (Although, maybe she mentions having told them about Harry. I forget.) The only other person Harry mentions ever writing to his family is Percy-- and that's only because Ginny was kidnapped by the Heir of Slytherin. Now, there are two other students who presumably communicated with their parents about Hogwarts matters. These are Marietta (who told her mother about the D.A.), and Montague, whose parent were observed striding up to the school to find out about their son. Perhaps Katie's parents were notified as well, when she went to St. Mungo's. Or... maybe not. But the description of Montague's parents makes it seem to me as though having parents come to the school is a breakdown in the normal state of things--a state in which parents are blissfully ignorant of their children's crimes and punishments. > Carol wrote in : > > << the raised fist is just one more instance of the miscommunication motif that appears in all the books >> catlady_de_los_angeles: > It never occurred to me as a reader that Scrimgeour didn't correctly understand Harry's fist, until you said so. We need Rowling to tell us (if we can believe her answer) what she intended. If she intended that Scrimgeour understood, as does the reader, that Harry's fist meant: "Remember what Umbridge did to me", then we allow as how Scrimgeour somehow knew about Umbridge's quill and kept her on anyway. I don't think it's so hard to believe that word got around starting from Lee Jordan. > > If she intended Harry raising his fist to Scrimgeour to be yet another miscommunication, should she have put in something somewhere to make it clear that Scrimgeour didn't understand? Was she counting on perceptive readers and literary scholars to figure it out and tell the rest of us? Has anyone but you published this interpretation? Montavilla47: I don't know if I ever published that interpretation, but mine was very similar to Carol's. I thought that Scrimgeour would have no idea what Harry was talking about, because of course he'd never have brought Umbridge up if he thought Harry disliked her, and that he assumed Harry was just expressing general defiance and contempt. Another bit of support for that interpretation comes from the end of POA, when Dumbledore assures Harry that telling the truth about Sirius's innocence would be useless, since no one (but him) would ever believe the word of a thirteen-year-old. How convenient that is for Dumbledore! Instead of having to reason with Fudge about Sirius, he can simply send Harry and Hermione out in the fog of Dementors to rescue him and then send him off to foreign parts. No messy fights with Harry's legal guardian for Dumbledore. And, way to insure that Harry never trusts another adult with inconvenient information. From sartoris22 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 31 21:11:48 2009 From: sartoris22 at yahoo.com (sartoris22) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 21:11:48 -0000 Subject: Curse that killed Bellatrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187665 > Zara: > I don't see why not Avada Kedavra. We've seen other angry good guys in dangerous or emotionally charged situations use the other Unforgivables in DH. Why suppose Molly would not? > > I think Molly was trying to kill Bellatrix ("You will never touch our children again!"), so the particular spell she used is not important to me. > sartoris22: Like Ikotur, I wondered if Molly used the killing curse. I hoped that she didn't because it splits the soul and is punishable by imprisonment in Azkaban. Unless there is a self defense or war clause in wizarding law, Avada Kedavra is always illegal. It seems that they reserved that restriction after the first war with Voldemort. Although Mad Eye Moody was a renegade, I never got the impression that he used the killing curse. If Molly did use it against Bellatrix, shouldn't she receive a damaged soul and a prsion sentence? From zgirnius at yahoo.com Mon Aug 31 21:28:43 2009 From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (zgirnius) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 21:28:43 -0000 Subject: Curse that killed Bellatrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187666 > sartoris22: If Molly did use it against Bellatrix, shouldn't she receive a damaged soul and a prsion sentence? Zara: Regarding a prison sentence, sure! I have no doubt Kingsley's first priority will be to stick Minerva, Harry, and Molly in Azkaban. Maybe in adjacent cells so they could visit with one another- for old times' sake. Seriously - if they were illegal when Harry, Molly, and others used themm, I nonetheless think the future government would not bother with prosecuting Voldemot opponents who resorted to Unforgivables in dire circumstances. Though, I would say there is evidence such curses *were* legal under the Thicknesse Administration. We know Crucio was used openly at Hogwarts by students and teachers. Regarding a torn soul, the canon does not state that using the Avada Kedavra damages the soul. It states that murder tears the soul. In DH, "The Prince's Talee", for example, Snape objects to the idea that he should kill Albus and expresses concern over the state of his soul, were he to comply with ALbus's request. Albus's answer: > DH: > "You alone know whether it will harm your soul to help an old man avoid pain and humiliation," said Dumbledore. "I ask this one great favor of you, Severus, because death is coming for me as surely as the Chudley Cannons will finish bottom of this year's league. I confess I should prefer a quick, painless exit to the protracted and messy affair it will be if, for instance, Greyback is involved --- Zara: ALbus could be either wrong or lying, naturally, but I find the view expressed here reasonable. That only Snape can know whether the killing will harm him, because only Snape can know why he is doing it. And if Snape is doing it as a favor to Albus, as an act of mercy, then it's OK, it will not damage Snape's soul the way a murder would. So anyway, this is why I do not think the spell Molly used, matters. She intended to kill Bella, and to the extent that is a bad thing, she did a bad thing and it does not matter what tool (spell) she used. I would argue it was no murder, though, as she was fighting Bella in defense of her own life and the lives of others. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 31 22:06:57 2009 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 22:06:57 -0000 Subject: Curse that killed Bellatrix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 187667 sartoris22 wrote: > > Like Ikotur, I wondered if Molly used the killing curse. I hoped that she didn't because it splits the soul and is punishable by imprisonment in Azkaban. Unless there is a self defense or war clause in wizarding law, Avada Kedavra is always illegal. It seems that they reserved that restriction after the first war with Voldemort. Although Mad Eye Moody was a renegade, I never got the > impression that he used the killing curse. If Molly did use it against Bellatrix, shouldn't she receive a damaged soul and a prsion sentence? Carol responds: It's a complicated question, not least because JKR's depiction of AK and the Unforgiveable Curses in general is inconsistent, especially between Gof and DH. Starting with legality, I think that all laws against using the Unforgiveable Curses must have been suspended in DH. Harry successfully uses two of the three, Imperius and Cruciatus, and no alarm bells go off at the MoM so far as we know. He never gets into any trouble for it. As for the real Mad-Eye Moody, he would have been authorized, at least while he was an Auror, to use the Unforgiveable Curses. The fake Mad-Eye seems to have taken advantage of this situation to get (or pretend to get) permission from Dumbledore to demonstrate them (perhaps not illegal if used on spiders) and to use Imperius on the students. Neither these "practice" spells nor his real Imperius (on Krum) and AK on his father, nor Krum's Crucio of Cedric while he was under the influence of the Imperius Curse seems to have been detected by the MoM. In Molly's case, I don't think she'd be punished for using AK on Bellatrix ot that the MoM (with her friend Kingsley as Minister) would check her wand. After all, she was defending her child *and* the WW was at war with Voldemort and the DEs. The DEs would go to prison for their other crimes, not (presumably) for fighting in the battle or for using AK at a time when the laws against it had (apparently) been suspended. With regard to soul tearing, Slughorn distinguishes between the damage to the soul caused by killing (or, more specifically, murder) and the creation of a Horcrux, which involves actually removing and encasing the torn portion using an unspecified spell. He says that a Horcrux can only be created by first committing murder, "the supreme act of evil." And that murder need not necessarily be committed using Avada Kedavra. Tom Riddle killed Myrtle using the Basilisk and Hepzibah Smith using poison, and both murders resulted in soul pieces that he could use to create Horcruxes (the diary and the cup). I get the impression that, even if a wizard wanted to do so, he could not use accidental homicide (manslaughter), killing in self-defense, killing in war, or euthanasia to create a Horcrux. Only murder damages the soul sufficiently that a torn portion can be encased in a Horcrux. And even then (assuming that the soul bit or soul bits haven't been destroyed) remorse can cure the damaged soul. Snape is concerned about the possible damage to his soul, not as the result of using Avada Kedavra specifically but of killing Dumbledore. Dumbledore suggests, and Snape apparently accepts the idea, that killing DD to give him a painless and dignified death (not to mention saving Draco's soul and all the other motives DD does and doesn't state)--essentially, killing for a good reason or the common good--will not result in splitting the soul. It seems likely to me that neither Snape nor Molly (who certainly would *not* have felt remorse for killing Bellatrix, in contrast to Snape, who certainly did feel the torment of remorse for killing DD even on DD's orders) would have split or torn souls as the result of killing in those particular circumstances any more than Neville would for killing the evil but obviously nonhuman Nagini. So I'm with whoever said that it doesn't matter which spell Molly used. She intended to kill Bellatrix and she did so. If killing regardless of motive splits the soul, and I don't think it does, her soul is split. If only murder splits the soul, hers is unsplit. One thing is certain: *Murder* splits the soul, and murder is murder whether the weapon is a wand, a snake, or poison. If it's a wand, the spell makes no difference. Murder by Sectumsempra would be as bad as murder by AK as long as the *intent* was to murder. With AK, the intent must be to *kill,* but as we know from Snape's case (and from real life), intentional killing is not always murder. Carol, choosing to paraphrase Slughorn's remarks from "Horcruxes" in HBP rather than quote them for the sake of time