Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner?

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 187562

Julie wrote:
> In the scenes between Dumbledore and YoungAdult!Snape in DH, I was never bothered by Snape's lack of concern for James and Harry, for exactly the reason you outline above. It is implied in Snape's request that Dumbledore will save Harry and James--the entire family--even though Snape doesn't ask specifically and really doesn't care. The fact that he doesn't care also makes sense to me, as Snape is a willing DE, so it's reasonable that his change of heart in general wil take place over a period of time, rather than as some sudden epiphany.

Carol responds:
I agree except that I'd say Snape *has been* a willing DE. He has clearly lost his trust in Voldemort to the extent that he risks his life to seek Lily's protection by LV's greatest and most powerful enemy. I'd say that his loyalty to LV is at least wavering and possibly lost along with his trust--he's not going to support a Dark Lord who threatens the life of the woman he loves. His promise to do "anything" to save Lily seals the deal--from that point forward, as Harry says in the graveyard scene, he's DD's man. not LV's. Whatever goals and values he thought he shared with the DEs and LV are nothing compared with his lifelong love for Lily. I do agree, however, that his conversion to the good side is not a sudden epiphany. He has no objection to DD's extending his protection to James and Harry, but it never occurred to him to include them in his request. It's a long time before he reaches the point of saving the lives of strangers and enemies rather than watching them die.

Julie: 
> What bothered me was Dumbledore's response. In every other confrontation with anyone acting on the "bad" side--Draco, Voldemort/Tom, Lucius, Fudge, Umbridge, the Dursleys, etc--Dumbledore delivers his condemnations in soft-spoken tones, using gentle admonishments to make his points and attempt to alter behavior or attitudes. Except for with Snape here, where he expresses extreme disgust rather than using his typical method <snip>

> I agree that Dumbledore's open disgust was intended for the readers to share, though I think JKR could have achieved the same while leaving Dumbledore in character. It's not like we missed anything about Umbridge's or Tom's or the Dursleys' characters because Dumbledore didn't directly and loudly announce his disgust.  
> 
> Julie, still not sure why JKR had Dumbledore treat Snape so differently than he did anyone else in the books.

Carol responds:
Well, of course, Draco is a special case--a teenage boy under orders to kill or be killed along with his family, who certainly would not have responded well to being told that DD was disgusted with him. DD was using psychology, and using it masterfully. And with little Tom, he just wants to make sure that he doesn't steal anything at Hogwarts and understands that he has to follow the rules. (DD has no idea of the extent of the potential for evil in the child he's confronting.) But with the others--Umbridge, the adult Voldemort, the Dursleys--DD is simply using good manners (or enforced "courtesy" in the case of the Dursleys) to make a point that he knows will have no effect on the listeners. What good would he have accomplished if he had expressed disgust rather than disappointment in his DADA interview with Voldemort, for example? Or what would he have accomplished by being rude to the Carrows (who might have killed him on the spot instead of trying to make Draco do it)? DD was stalling for time while he waited for Snape.

My guess, and it's only a guess, was that he saw potential in Snape that he didn't see in those others. I don't think that the target audience for his words was us--I, for one, was more disgusted by DD than by Snape, who was distraught and concerned only for Lily. *Of course* he didn't think to ask for protection for his old enemy and that man's unknown son, any more than Molly Weasley was thinking about the danger that Bellatrix Lestrange presented to other people's children when she yelled, "Not my daughter!" So Dumbledore took a chance and told the distraught young man that his request to spare only Lily disgusted him even though he's talking about a request made to Voldemort, not himself, and *of course* Snape would not and could not have asked him to spare his old enemy and the Prophecy Boy whose murder was the whole point of the attack on the Potter family. He wanted, IMO, to shock young Snape into realizing that the whole family was in danger and needed his protection and to see his reaction, which probably Exceeded Expectations--"Keep her--them--safe. Please"-- followed by "anything" in response to "What will you give me in return?"

I think that DD sensed remorse as well as desperation in young Snape's case and took advantage of the opportunity not only to gain an extremely valuable spy but to turn a young man's life around. The "tough love" approach worked with Snape, as it would not have worked in any of those other cases.

BTW, I think he does express disgust on one other occasion (Barty Crouch Jr.) and that the disgust on that occasion is more genuine and not intended to be manipulative.

Carol, who doesn't like DD in that scene but thinks that he knew exactly what he was doing in psychologically manipulating young Snape