Dumbledore and the psychic magic (was: Prophecy)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 187588

Potioncat wrote:
> I think he considered it a valid form of magic. I'm clipping this from an earlier post:
> > 
> > "Although it was against my inclination to allow the subject of Divination to continue at all. --   I was disappointed. It seemed to me that she had not a trace of the gift herself."< (OoP, I think)
> 
> So it seems he accepts the magic and those who have the gift, but doesn't think she has it.

Carol responds:
Until he hears her give what is obviously a "real" prophecy in the sense that it's not given in her normal voice and she's clearly not in her right mind--she's a *medium* and the voice is coming *through* her, if you understand what I mean. She herself is not making the prophecy; she's only speaking it, but it comes from someone or something or somewhere other than her own mind. (Cf. The Sibyls for whom she's named.) At that point I think he would have hired her to protect her and keep her from being used by Voldemort and the DEs even if the Prophecy hadn't been overheard. What he thinks of the Prophecy itself at this point is hard to say. Certainly, he can have had no more idea than Snape did who it would involve.

Potioncat:
> He was really avoiding her in HBP. I thought at first that he didn't want to risk hearing a valid prophecy that might influence his behavior. However, it's more likely he was busy and didn't want to put up with her doom-and-gloom forecasts.

Carol responds:
I think you're right. More specifically, he already knows without the help of a deck of cards (or a crystal ball or whatever) that death is drawing ever nearer to Hogwarts and that the death will be his own. He doesn't need to be reminded of it, and he probably doesn't want her to know that he believes that particular prediction. (It's interesting that "treachery" isn't in the cards. should that have been a hint to us readers that Snape was on DD's side and doing his bidding?)
> 
> > Mike:
> „« . What I'm getting at is that though DD says that Sibyll has two (2) true prophetic utterances under her belt ( this one and the one about Peter), he acts as if the players in the prophecy aren't bound by it, aren't bound by the magic of it. 
> 
> Potioncat:
> We just don't know the magic behind prophecies. While we can come up with "what ifs" we just don't know what the forces are. 
> 
> This is what I think DD thinks. A prophecy has powers, but the individual is not bound to behave in a certain way. Complicating it all, an individual can't really know which of his actions will support the prophecy's outcome.--or if the individual really understands the predicted outcome.

Carol responds:
I don't think that a prophecy has binding powers. JKR's universe is a little too deterministic for my taste, and Trelawney's prophecies (and even her card readings, which she thinks "can't be right) do come true, and "Mars is bright tonight" does, apparently, foreshadow a Wizarding War, but Firenze says that even the Centaurs have read the skies wrongly on occasion. I'd say that Divination is an inexact "science" at best. Not all prophecies come true (they have to be heard and acted upon, apparently, whether the person acting on them is trying to thwart them or make them come true, just as in mythology) and the wording is ambiguous, making a number of outcomes possible (either Harry or LV could have died "at the hand of the other," but both could not have survived the final battle ("neither can live while the other survives") or it would not have been a final battle (to state the obvious). 

I think that a Prophecy is not a definitive statement of the future but a prediction of what will come to pass under certain conditions. Once LV has "marked" Harry "as his equal," unwitting bringing about the Love magic and simultaneously giving Harry a few of his own powers (exactly those that will enable Harry to defeat him), it's almost inevitable that he and Harry will confront each other even though, theoretically, Harry could choose to run away or die before the final confrontation, in which case, I don't think that anyone could destroy Voldemort. It also seems to me that only Harry ("the one with the power") can destroy him; otherwise the much wiser and more powerful Dumbledore would have done so. But, still, there's an element of chance in a prophecy, rather like the Mirror of Galadriel, which shows "things that yet may be" but which "may never come to be unless those that behold the visions [read "hear the prophecy"] turn aside from their path to prevent them" (FOTR, "The Mirror of Galadriel").

Potioncat: 
> Certainly, DD seemed to believe that once LV acted on the prophecy, that certain outcomes were determined. In the same sense that once you start taking a medicine certain out comes are expected--but not guaranteed. 

Carol:
But "outcomes," plural--*either* Harry will vanquish LV or LV will kill him and become, to all intents and purposes, immortal. still, though, until LV took a drop of Harry's blood, Harry could theoretically have died some other way, and I'm not sure whether that drop of blood protected him from other forms of death (such as being strangled and drowned by the Horcrux--would Harry have become Vapor!Harry if Ron (or Snape) had not rescued him?).

Potioncat: 
> I (Potioncat) believe that there is magic in a prophecy that will improve the likelihood of its happening. Whether it is that the right people hear the prophecy, or that it influences a certain response from someone.

Carol responds:
I think it's more like a magical glimpse of the future as it will be if certain events occur or certain conditions are met. In the case of the first Prophecy, Voldemort himself, in trying to thwart the Prophecy, brought about those necessary conditions, creating his own nemesis. In the case of the second Prophecy, "the servant" was already intending to escape (although he'd only gotten as far as Hagrid's tea jar, or whatever it was); another bit of magic, the DADA curse, was also in effect, perhaps causing Lupin to forget his potion, ultimately allowing Wormtail to escape. But that prophecy, which Harry heard but was not influenced by, could have been thwarted if Harry had not told Black and Lupin not to kill Wormtail. It wasn't inevitable, just probable, given the conditions and character of the various participants.

What I'm trying to say is that the magic of a prophecy is not binding; it does not control events. It's more like a revelation of what may happen if the necessary conditions fall into place. Had HRH not gone out to see Hagrid before Buckbeak's execution, for example, none of the rest could have happened. The only difference in this instance is that Harry isn't acting to thwart the prophecy. He might as well not have heard it. It serves only as evidence that Trelawney really is, on occasion, a true Seer, even if she doesn't know it herself.

Carol, who hopes that JKR writes that WW encyclopedia and that it includes an entry on Divination