From danjerri at madisoncounty.net  Tue Dec  1 00:18:34 2009
From: danjerri at madisoncounty.net (jerrichase)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 00:18:34 -0000
Subject: Most scary/disturbing quotes and scenes from the HP books
In-Reply-To: <200911280653.nAS6rZ7K023045@post.portset.net>
Message-ID: <hf1ncq+omlk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188552


> Just wondering, what does everyone think the most scary or >disturbing quote and scene is from the whole HP series.  
.  .  .  SNIP  .  .  . 
> AJM

Until the problems I had with the final book, which don't really fit here, the part of the HP series which disturbed me the most was one you mentioned, the death of Cedric.  Here we have a young person, I suppose under Wizarding Law "of age", so 17 or 18, but to me (in my 50's) still a child, killed.  And, not only as an afterthought, (Kill the Spare), but as a result of he and Harry doing the "right" thing, from all the data they had, and deciding to share the glory of winning, and thus taking the cup together.  It made my blood run cold, and I felt very positive about Harry when I learned that he was having nightmares about it all summer, in spite of the fact that he had never really "liked" Cedric.

I find this both very disturbing and also consider it to be good "art", as it shows how evil the "bad" side it without resorting to gross stuff, like the snake eating people, etc.

Jerri





From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Tue Dec  1 14:49:06 2009
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 06:49:06 -0800
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
Message-ID: <83D6C54587464DFF9B5B4F12E4F79EA2@excessivelypPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 188553

> Jean:
> Snape had a valid expectation of Harry
> starting up the 'Snivellus' nickname again, and laughing with his friends
> over it; the fact it didn't happen is something that Snape could not have
> expected. After all, even Lily used that nickname in the Worst Memory.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I completely disagree that it is a valid expectation that little boy who
just arrives in the world unknown to him will use a rude nickname used by
his father he never knew in part thanks to Snape dear. He is a boy for
crying out loud, an orphaned boy in part thanks to Snape. 
><SNIP>

--The Pensieve incident was in fifth year. Snape had just come from rescuing
Montague (who appears, in canon, to have suffered permanent brain damage
because of what the Twins did to him), only to discover Harry in the Worst
Memory. By that time Harry was not a little boy; Snape was giving Occlumency
lessons (badly; one suspects that he was not pleased to have to do what I
think was really Dumbledore's job), and Harry openly admitted that he wanted
the visions and did not want them to go away in that part of OOtP. (I can
quote canon on that if need be). Harry had what he thought were valid
reasons--after all, he saved Arthur Weasley by channeling Nagini--and yet,
his refusal to learn Occlumency or remember Sirius Black's gift ultimately
cost his godfather his life. I do think Harry would have worked harder at
learning Occlumency had he been taught by Dumbledore. By that time, Harry
was  a fairly troubled young man still dealing with the trauma of Cedric's
death and with Umbridge's horrible quill. Note that losing his godfather and
finding out that Dumbledore apparently knew about the Dursleys' abuse didn't
stop _Dumbledore_ from sending him back to Privet Drive. 
 
And this is undoubtedly just a coincidence, but I think it's interesting
that the Order showing up and threatening the Dursleys occurred the same
year that _Snape_ learned of the Dursleys' abuse (as he obviously did during
the Occlumency lessons). 
 
As for Marietta Edgecombe, there is no canon evidence that she was happy
about telling on the DA; in fact, my reading of her confession in front of
the other DA members is that she sounds reluctant and unhappy. Nobody ever
asked why she did so; not even people besides Harry who had also been
tortured with the Quill. As for her mother's job, from my reading of canon,
it seems to be rare for mothers to work outside the home (Petunia, Molly for
example. If Marietta's mother was the only income, and worked for Umbridge,
there was, in my opinion, a possibility of the Edgecombe family being fired,
blackballed, and unable to find work in the Wizarding World (cf Remus
Lupin). It also possible that Umbridge acquired some _real_ Veritaserum when
she tried to use the whole bottle of the fake stuff on Harry. It is also
possible that Umbridge used other spells on Edgecombe. The fact is, we don't
know why Marietta Edgecombe talked--for all we know Umbridge was able to use
a Crucio on her (the way she tried to on Harry just before meeting the
centaurs). I think that Flitwick is a head of House who appeared more
involved in scoring points off of Umbridge than caring about one of his
students; given that Luna Lovegood is treated for years, he seems, in my
opinion, to be a head of House who doesn't pay much attention to his
students' needs. 
 
A quick note on the teacher that JK Rowling said she modeled Snape after--he
appears to be a very nice gentleman by the name of John Nettleship, who
helped her mother find a job when the family was broke, and is indeed the
opposite in temperament from Snape from the accounts of people who know him.
Rowling is, of course, allowed artistic license in the creation of her
characters. 
 

Jean Lamb

Do UPS workers learn Parceltongue?

tlambs1138 at charter.net

excessiveperky at LJ

 

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  1 17:43:06 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 17:43:06 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <83D6C54587464DFF9B5B4F12E4F79EA2@excessivelypPC>
Message-ID: <hf3kja+k0ge@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188555

Jean:
The Pensieve incident was in fifth year. Snape had just come from rescuing
Montague (who appears, in canon, to have suffered permanent brain damage
because of what the Twins did to him), only to discover Harry in the Worst
Memory. By that time Harry was not a little boy; Snape was giving Occlumency
lessons (badly; one suspects that he was not pleased to have to do what I
think was really Dumbledore's job), and Harry openly admitted that he wanted
the visions and did not want them to go away in that part of OOtP. (I can
quote canon on that if need be). Harry had what he thought were valid
reasons--after all, he saved Arthur Weasley by channeling Nagini--and yet,
his refusal to learn Occlumency or remember Sirius Black's gift ultimately
cost his godfather his life. I do think Harry would have worked harder at
learning Occlumency had he been taught by Dumbledore. By that time, Harry
was a fairly troubled young man still dealing with the trauma of Cedric's
death and with Umbridge's horrible quill. 

Alla:

Well yes of course, and if the first time when Snape lashed out at Harry I would have judged this incident very differently. I thought that when you argued that Snape had a reasonable expectation of Harry behaving like his father you meant when Snape saw Harry for the first time and with that I cannot agree. My long held position is no matter  what Harry did against the rules later in their interactions, Snape Owes it, period by starting all that. Absolutely Harry has fault in Pensieve accident, but in my opinion Snape verbally abused Harry for four years starting with their first lesson and I place a blame for that on the adult teacher, not on the eleven year old boy who did not know his father. As it is, to me pensieve accident  AND the Occlumency lessons is the culminations of the previous four years, Harry??s mistrust of Snape and not working harder, etc, etc. Do I think that Dumbledore??s idea for Snape to teach Harry was idiotic in the first place? Before you ask me, I certainly do think so.

Jean:
Note that losing his godfather and
finding out that Dumbledore apparently knew about the Dursleys' abuse didn't
stop _Dumbledore_ from sending him back to Privet Drive.

Alla:

Yes, had been duly noted by me for a longest time ?? and as far as I am concerned I hope Dumbledore pays for it in spades in the Potterverse after life. I used to like Dumbledore, but I never ever liked him sending Harry to Dursleys, necessity or not, I especially did not like that he did not check on him, not once. I HATE that he did not bother to personally check upon Sirius?? guilt or innocence, so believe me even before book 7 Dumbledore committed a lot of very bad things as far as I am concerned, greater good or not. After book 7, well I just plain hate him for the most part. And yes, hate Snape as I am, I hate how Dumbledore treated him in book 7 too no matter how much I think Snape deserved it.

Jean:
And this is undoubtedly just a coincidence, but I think it's interesting
that the Order showing up and threatening the Dursleys occurred the same
year that _Snape_ learned of the Dursleys' abuse (as he obviously did during
the Occlumency lessons).
<SNIP>

Alla:

Yes, as far as I am concerned just a coincidence. ;) I mean, if there is evidence that Snape bothered to let other order members know about the abuse, I will be happy to give Snape credit for that of course.  

Seriously though I cannot help but think that JKR inserted that scene because too many readers were unhappy with what went on at Dursleys without any admonition from good guys. Please do not laugh, hear me out, I do not believe of course that she would change her story in a major ways to cater to readers?? wishes, otherwise she would not have killed so many characters for starters, and did not do some other things lol. But she admitted going on line and reading many times, so I am solely speculating of course  with no proof whatsoever, but I wonder if she thought why not to make some readers happier if that does not interfere with the flow of the story. Here we go, see, they really do not approve of what Dursleys did to Harry. Of course for me that scene just raised more questions ?V like really if it was so so dangerous for Dumbledore to interfere when Dursleys?? abuse was at its worst, when Harry was there before Hogwarts, then why the heck it was not dangerous any more? Oh well, this was an aside.

JMO,

Alla





From winterfell7 at hotmail.com  Tue Dec  1 20:18:45 2009
From: winterfell7 at hotmail.com (SteveE)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 20:18:45 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <83D6C54587464DFF9B5B4F12E4F79EA2@excessivelypPC>
Message-ID: <hf3tn5+e44u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188556



, "Jean Lamb" <tlambs1138 at ...> wrote:
>
> > Jean:
> ><SNIP>  
> A quick note on the teacher that JK Rowling said she modeled Snape after--he
> appears to be a very nice gentleman by the name of John Nettleship, who
> helped her mother find a job when the family was broke, and is indeed the
> opposite in temperament from Snape from the accounts of people who know him.
> Rowling is, of course, allowed artistic license in the creation of her
> characters. 
>  
 Steve replies:

In the October 12th, 1999 interview w/ Christopher Lydon, (part 13, 18:51) JKR says that the very sadistio teacher (Snape) was loosely based on a teacher she herself had. But you are of course right in saying that Rowling is allowed artistic license w/ her characters.




From ffred_clegg at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec  1 21:39:30 2009
From: ffred_clegg at yahoo.co.uk (Ffred Clegg)
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 21:39:30 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Duffers
In-Reply-To: <1259670193.742.52750.m5@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1259670193.742.52750.m5@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <547720.50123.qm@web24714.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188557

1a. Re: Duffers
? ? Posted by: "potioncat" willsonkmom at msn.com potioncat
? ? Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:40 am ((PST))

>I think the most recent sorting hat song, "Good Hufflepuff, she took the rest and taught them all she knew," makes the house seem dummed down to >many readers. Helga, it seems, did not judge her students on bravery, wit or blood status. She was willing to teach anyone who wanted to learn. Again, >bravery, wit and blood status have nothing to do with magical potential. Hers is a "just" method of teaching. Hufflepuff's standards aren't low, they are just >and patient and welcoming.

Haven't posted for yonks but had to respond on this one.

Let's zoom back 1100 years and think in terms of how human beings lived at the time of the Founders (and by extension how the WW lived).

Look at a year's intake to Hogwarts.

On one side are the wizard-born children, they probably already know each other, are smartly dressed and discussing life in general in Latin, the lingua franca of the educated.

On the other side are the muggle-borns, barefoot, smelly, illiterate?peasants who speak mutually unintelligible dialects of Anglo-Saxon, Middle Welsh, Cornish, Cumbrian, Gaelic, Pictish. They are terrified (because the priest has told them that witches and wizards will eat them, sacrifice them to Satan, or whatever, just before someone came along and snatched them off on a broomstick), uncomprehending, don't even know the rules for participating in polite society.

Personally I'm not that surprised that Slytherin ended up just wanting to take the purebloods ("But Godric, how can you teach them the three* uses of dragon's blood when they don't even know the one use of fleabane or what a garderobe is for?")

*more have been discovered since...

Meanwhile Helga was busy reassuring the youngsters that they would be ok, buddying them up with older students from their locality who could show them the ropes, clean them up a bit.

She ranks high in my estimation.

cheers

Ffred


      



From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Dec  1 23:19:11 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 23:19:11 -0000
Subject: Duffers
In-Reply-To: <547720.50123.qm@web24714.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <hf489f+c6d4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188558



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ffred Clegg <ffred_clegg at ...> wrote:

Ffred: 
> Look at a year's intake to Hogwarts.
> 
> On one side are the wizard-born children, they probably already know each other, are smartly dressed and discussing life in general in Latin, the lingua franca of the educated.
> 
> On the other side are the muggle-borns, barefoot, smelly, illiterate?peasants who speak mutually unintelligible dialects of Anglo-Saxon, Middle Welsh, Cornish, Cumbrian, Gaelic, Pictish. They are terrified (because the priest has told them that witches and wizards will eat them, sacrifice them to Satan, or whatever, just before someone came along and snatched them off on a broomstick), uncomprehending, don't even know the rules for participating in polite society.

Geoff:
But, with respect, being "smartly dressed and discussing life in 
general in Latin, the lingua franca of the educated" was not the 
sole preserve of the wizarding world any more than in the 21st 
century,

To take just two examples: at that time, the Normans were 
considered to be cultured and the Anglo-Saxon nobility were, 
in terms of their time, educated, able to write poetry and literary 
works and the upper classes of both these enjoyed good standards 
of living and spoke Latin.

I imagine there were wizarding families who lived in these cultures 
alongside Muggle neighbours.

Just because flush toilets had not yet been invented doesn't make them 
gormless.
:-)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Dec  2 03:10:17 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 03:10:17 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 13, Nicolas Flamel
In-Reply-To: <hekru1+5h49@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hf4lqp+i8u6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188559

 
> Questions:

> 2.    Why did Snape referee the Quidditch game? And why might he have seemed angrier than usual before the match?

Potioncat:
Well, at first it seemed his plan was to harm Harry--and others thought his plan was help out the Slytherin team. We learn later it was to protect Harry---though how he was supposed to be able to protect Harry while flying in the middle of a Quidditch game, I cannot say.

I don't understand why he was so angry, and it doesn't look as if anyone has worked it out either. I do know his behavior afterwards is what tipped off more astute readers that Snape came from the wrong side of the tracks--while many others still imagined he went to Snape Manor over the holidays.


> 3.    Why is Hermione's advice to Neville (to confront Malfoy), and Neville's subsequent action critical to the HP series?

Potioncat:
Neville is introduced in such a way to make him appear inept and timid. As the series we see his courage unfold. It is a very different type of courage than Harry has, but it is just as real and as valid.



> 5.    In the forest, Snape says to Quirrell: "You don't want me as your enemy, Quirrell." What did you make of this statement on your first read? Given what we know of Snape, has the significance of this statement changed?

Potioncat:
I confess, all this double spy bit has me dizzy. I'm not sure if Quirrell was on to Snape the whole time, if Snape was on to LV at all. At first read, I thought Snape was the bad guy and was trying to get Quirrell to work for him. I'm still not sure if he wasn't trying to warn Quirrell to stay on DD's side--or if it was an elaborate game.

But I do agree, you don't want Snape as your enemy. He brought LV down by his actions, even if he did die in the process.


Thanks, Njeri for interesting questions.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Dec  2 03:15:25 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 03:15:25 -0000
Subject: Duffers
In-Reply-To: <547720.50123.qm@web24714.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <hf4m4d+q0t4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188560


>Ffred: 
> On the other side are the muggle-borns, barefoot, smelly, illiterate?peasants who speak mutually unintelligible dialects of Anglo-Saxon, Middle Welsh, Cornish, Cumbrian, Gaelic, Pictish. 

Potioncat:
Well, I get the feeling the Wizarding sorts spanned the same range of groups. At least in the modern WW there are well-heeled wizards down to something out of Dickens (Gaunts.)

> Ffred:
> Personally I'm not that surprised that Slytherin ended up just wanting to take the purebloods ("But Godric, how can you teach them the three* uses of dragon's blood when they don't even know the one use of fleabane or what a garderobe is for?")

Potioncat:
Not that I agree with Slytherin, but I can understand his reluctance as well.
>
Ffred: 
> Meanwhile Helga was busy reassuring the youngsters that they would be ok, buddying them up with older students from their locality who could show them the ropes, clean them up a bit.
> 
> She ranks high in my estimation.
>
Potioncat:
Mine too.

I didn't have much to add, just wanted to say Hi to Ffred. Haven't seen you in ages. Stick around.




From upf_geelong at yahoo.com.au  Thu Dec  3 03:28:19 2009
From: upf_geelong at yahoo.com.au (Aussie)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 03:28:19 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 14, Norbert The Norwegian Ridgeback
Message-ID: <hf7b8j+jj7k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188561

This message is a Special Notice for all members of

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In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
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contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
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CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone,
Chapter Fourteen, Norbert The Norwegian Ridgeback

The trio become protective of Quirrell hoping to boost his defiance to Snape,
since they were sure Snape was after the Stone. Although Quirell became paler, Snape kept his bad temper, so the Stone was safe.

The time is 10 weeks before their final exams. That meant Hermione had Harry and
Ron with her in the library when Hagrid came in to borrow a book on Dragon
breeding. Ron showed an uncommon lot of knowledge on the subject of Dragons and
the laws relating to them.

To stop the trio asking about the Stone too loudly in the school, Hagrid invited
them to his hut. They went, and through a bit of flattery, Hermione got Hagrid
to name the 7 teachers asked to help guard the Stone: Hagrid, Sprout, Flitwick,
McGonagall, Quirrell, Dumbledore and "Oh yeah, Professor Snape."

It was very hot inside the hut because Hagrid, it turned out, had won a Dragon
egg (a rare Norwegian Ridgeback) from a stranger in the village. He had turned
his hut into an incubator for the Dragon (even though, Hermione noted, the hut
was wooden). Hagrid sent a note a few days later so they could come and see the
hatching, but Malfoy followed them and saw the illegal dragon. Norbert, the
dragon, would have to leave Hagrid's soon.

Over the next two weeks, they devised a plan to send Norbert to Romania where
Ron's brother, Charlie, studied wild dragons. Charlie arranged for friends to
fly him by broom. Before they could, Norbert bit Ron on the hand, and the
swelling made him go to the hospital wing (Harry's 2nd home at Hogwarts). While
there, Malfoy visited Ron (to blackmail him) and found out the details of
Norbert's escape ? Saturday at midnight on the tower.

Harry and Hermione used the invisibility cloak to carry the crate with Norbert
to the tower. Malfoy was waiting at the bottom of the tower stairs, and was
caught and so given a detention from McGonagall. Harry and Hermione passed
Norbert over to Charlie's friends, and then, they were caught by Filch as they
left the tower staircase.


Questions:

1. Did the way Harry trusted Quirrell and doubted Snape give you an idea of what
to look for in following books?

2. "We wondered who Dumbledore had trusted 
 apart from you" Hermione flattering
Hagrid. Is this the only time Hermione uses flattery?

3. "Dragon breeding was outlawed by the Warlocks' Convention of 1709
" RON said
that !?!! He also knows his Broomsticks. What other topics could Ron beat
Hermione at in a trivia night?

4. Only four of the teachers were members of the Order of the Phoenix. If JKR
re-wrote this, would Moody, Lupin or other trusted people have been called in?
Who and why?

5. Norbert was the star of this chapter. We witnessed the birth and habits of a
young Dragon. But after that, he almost never got a mention. So why have Norbert
there at all? Your opinion please.

6. How did Hagrid's attitude towards Norbert develop Hagrid's character for you?

7. If you knew your plans for Norbert were leaked to Malfoy, how would you have
avoided trouble?

8. 
 and your question is 
.


aussie_lol / Norbert's mummy



NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at

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Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 15, The Forbidden Forrest, on December 10, 2009.

If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion,
please drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space).






From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  3 07:45:42 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 23:45:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 14, Norbert The Norwegian Ridgeback
In-Reply-To: <hf7b8j+jj7k@eGroups.com>
References: <hf7b8j+jj7k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <233086.10750.qm@web46206.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188562

>1. Did the way Harry trusted Quirrell and doubted Snape give you an idea of what
to look for in following books?

Joey: 
I didn't trust Lupin till I read the climax in PoA. Snape remained mysterious for me. :-)

>2. "We wondered who Dumbledore had trusted ? apart from you" Hermione flattering
Hagrid. Is this the only time Hermione uses flattery?

Joey: 
How about her talk to Myrtyle at say Nick's deathday party? :-)

>3. "Dragon breeding was outlawed by the Warlocks' Convention of 1709?" RON said
that !?!! He also knows his Broomsticks. What other topics could Ron beat
Hermione at in a trivia night?

Joey: 
LOL. Not sure about trivia night but he does seem to be better at intuition and understanding typical human tendencies (and yes, chess). :-) 

>5. Norbert was the star of this chapter. We witnessed the birth and habits of a
young Dragon. But after that, he almost never got a mention. So why have Norbert
there at all? Your opinion please.

Joey: 
To give an introduction to dragons and their behaviour, I guess. They had a role in GoF and DH. :-)

>6. How did Hagrid's attitude towards Norbert develop Hagrid's character for you?

Joey: 
He is kind-hearted but can be a pain in the neck at times. :-)

>7. If you knew your plans for Norbert were leaked to Malfoy, how would you have
avoided trouble?

Joey: 
Speak to one of the teachers like Prof. Flitwick or Sprout? :-))

Nice questions!
Cheers,
~Joey :-)


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  3 16:40:04 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 16:40:04 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hf3kja+k0ge@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hf8pl4+sj2h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188563

Jean:
> And this is undoubtedly just a coincidence, but I think it's interesting
> that the Order showing up and threatening the Dursleys occurred the same
> year that _Snape_ learned of the Dursleys' abuse (as he obviously did during
> the Occlumency lessons).
> <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, as far as I am concerned just a coincidence. ;) I mean, if there is evidence that Snape bothered to let other order members know about the abuse, I will be happy to give Snape credit for that of course.  
> 
> Seriously though I cannot help but think that JKR inserted that scene because too many readers were unhappy with what went on at Dursleys without any admonition from good guys. Please do not laugh, hear me out, I do not believe of course that she would change her story in a major ways to cater to readers?? wishes, otherwise she would not have killed so many characters for starters, and did not do some other things lol. But she admitted going on line and reading many times, so I am solely speculating of course  with no proof whatsoever, but I wonder if she thought why not to make some readers happier if that does not interfere with the flow of the story. Here we go, see, they really do not approve of what Dursleys did to Harry. Of course for me that scene just raised more questions ?V like really if it was so so dangerous for Dumbledore to interfere when Dursleys?? abuse was at its worst, when Harry was there before Hogwarts, then why the heck it was not dangerous any more? Oh well, this was an aside.
> 


Montavilla47:

Alla, I'm not sure if you're talking about the scene where the Order
members threaten the Dursleys (at the end of OotP), or the one where 
Dumbledore threatens them (in the beginning of HBP).  

In the first case, it seemed to me that JKR was simply following
a pattern that had carried on through books 1-4, where Harry
leaves the Dursley home in hot water, through some kind of 
magical accident for which he carries no blame, but which the 
Dursleys will attribute to him.  

Then, at the end of the year, he returns to their home with enough
power to ensure they can't hurt him too much--which gives the 
reader the feeling that Harry has somehow achieved power over
them, having lost it at the beginning of the year.

In PS/SS, Harry gets this power because he knows how to do
magic and the Dursleys don't know he's not allowed to do it.
In CoS, Ron promises to check up on him and even telephone.
In PoA, he's able to tell them that his dangerous, murderous 
Godfather will be expecting to hear from him.  In GoF, he's
actually at his most powerful, because he doesn't even need
magical power or friends, he's beyond caring what the Dursleys
do.  And, in OotP, to show that he's no longer isolated, the 
Order members come out in force to threaten Vernon.

The departure came in HBP, when Dumbledore delivered 
the threats at the beginning of the book, instead of at the 
end.  Which was why I knew Dumbledore was dying already.
If he hadn't been, he'd have done that scene at the end of 
the book.






From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Fri Dec  4 04:37:43 2009
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb)
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 20:37:43 -0800
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 14, Norbert The Norwegian Ridgeback
Message-ID: <9C1829C7402F40CDAFC66017C3997075@excessivelypPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 188564

1. Did the way Harry trusted Quirrell and doubted Snape give you an idea of what
to look for in following books?

--Yes. This was a repeated theme. In fact, Rowling was clever to use that against the reader in PoA, where it looked like Harry was wrong to trust Remus, and turned around again in GoF, where 'Fake' Moody was so very, very helpful. Harry started losing trust in a lot of people after that--in fact, by DH Harry was wondering what the heck Dumbledore had in mind, and Harry _always_ trusted Dumbledore. And Snape, who was never trusted (ok, and abusive--he never should have been a teacher)--was faithful till death. 


2. "We wondered who Dumbledore had trusted . apart from you" Hermione flattering
Hagrid. Is this the only time Hermione uses flattery?

--I don't think so; though when somewhere in canon she tells Harry that bravery is everything, and much more important than intelligence, you have to wonder exactly how much she really meant it, and how much she wanted Harry to feel better. 

3. "Dragon breeding was outlawed by the Warlocks' Convention of 1709." RON said
that !?!! He also knows his Broomsticks. What other topics could Ron beat
Hermione at in a trivia night?

--Quidditch. Serious Quidditch. Also, if there was any organized Wizarding Chess, Ron is likely to be knowledegable about that, too. (Blatant Plug: my story on www.fanfiction.net called "Midnight by the Weasley Watch" features Iron Chess!Ron and some serious, serious chess (I used a grandmaster game from 1927 for a truly nasty game between Severus Snape and Lucius Malfoy, after Malfoy has almost gotten Ron in a bad, bad corner over a bet. Ron thought he could make some easy money, you see...). I bet Ron listens hard to his brother Bill's stories about goblins and curse-breaking, too. 

4. Only four of the teachers were members of the Order of the Phoenix. If JKR
re-wrote this, would Moody, Lupin or other trusted people have been called in?
Who and why?

--It depends if it's something that has to be handled by someone not from the school. We don't see much of the real Moody in any action, but he's likely to be competent enough that Harry and his friends wouldn't be called in, and hey, there goes the story! 

5. Norbert was the star of this chapter. We witnessed the birth and habits of a
young Dragon. But after that, he almost never got a mention. So why have Norbert
there at all? Your opinion please.

--Well, Norbert shows that parts of the magical world look cute but can still hurt you. This is something that Harry doesn't really know yet. 

6. How did Hagrid's attitude towards Norbert develop Hagrid's character for you?

--He's a sweetheart who doesn't really understand that other, smaller people can be injured even though he can't. He's used to thinking of himself and others as indestructible. Even though his own house isn't, really. 

7. If you knew your plans for Norbert were leaked to Malfoy, how would you have
avoided trouble?

--"Hey! If you help us, we'll let you hold him! Bet you never actually _held_ a dragon before!"

8. . and your question is ..

Er...can't think of one!


Jean Lamb
tlambs1138 at charter.net
excessiveperky at LJ
Meet the Carstairs Sisters at www.gameoflove1.com today!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From kckriger at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  2 10:59:32 2009
From: kckriger at yahoo.com (ken krieger)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 02:59:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Duffers
In-Reply-To: <hf4m4d+q0t4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <146757.56263.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188565

<snip>
> Ffred:
> Personally I'm not that surprised that Slytherin
ended up just wanting to take the purebloods ("But
Godric, how can you teach them the three* uses of
dragon's blood when they don't even know the one
use of fleabane or what a garderobe is for?")

Potioncat:
Not that I agree with Slytherin, but I can understand
his reluctance as well.
<snip>


Hi

   To me Slytherin House was just a bunch of conservative
trouble making nitpickers, the whole pureblood thing was
just blow! Severus Snape and the great Tom Marvolo Riddle
Jr. were mudbloods! Tom Riddle Jr. hated his muggle father
for dumping his mother, witch Merope Gaunt, a member of the
Slytherin family, that he killed his father, grandfather,
and grandmother and set up his uncle for the crime.

   Tom Riddle Jr. changed his name to Lord Voldemort to
cover up his mudblood family.
                   yours Ken



From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Dec  4 07:34:21 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 07:34:21 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 14, Norbert The Norwegian Ridgeback
In-Reply-To: <9C1829C7402F40CDAFC66017C3997075@excessivelypPC>
Message-ID: <hfae1t+t3fk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188566

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jean Lamb" <tlambs1138 at ...> wrote:

> > 2. "We wondered who Dumbledore had trusted . apart from you" Hermione flattering
> > Hagrid. Is this the only time Hermione uses flattery?

Jean Lamb: 
> --I don't think so; though when somewhere in canon she tells Harry that bravery is everything, and much more important than intelligence, you have to wonder exactly how much she really meant it, and how much she wanted Harry to feel better. 

Geoff:
I think in the instance you mention, Hermione is *encouraging* Harry when 
he believes that he is about to face Snape and possibly Voldemort. It is *not*
flattery. This is Hermione in an unusual mode:

'"No listen - get back and get Ron - grab brooms from the flying key room, 
they'll get you out of the trapdoor and past Fluffy - go straight to the owlery
and send Hedwig to Dumbledore, we need him. I might be able to hold Snape
off for a while, but I'm no match for him really."

"But, Harry - what if You-Know-Who's with him?"

"Well -I was lucky once wasn't I" said Harry, pointing at his scar. "I might get 
lucky again."

Hermione's lip trembled an she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms
around him.

"*Hermione!*"

"Harry - you're a great wizard, you know."

"I'm not as good as you," said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him.

"Me!"said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things 
- friendship and bravery and - oh Harry - be *careful*!"'

(PS "Through the Trapdoor" pp. 207/08 UK edition)

This is quite an epiphany for Hermione - more important things than books??
:-)












From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Dec  4 13:05:59 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 13:05:59 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 14, Norbert The Norwegian Ridgeback
In-Reply-To: <hf7b8j+jj7k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfb1fn+nq0g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188567



> Questions:
> 
> 1. Did the way Harry trusted Quirrell and doubted Snape give you an idea of what to look for in following books?

Potioncat:
It left me with the idea that you don't always know who to trust as you read the books--but Crouch!Moody got right past me.

> 
> 2. "We wondered who Dumbledore had trusted 
 apart from you" Hermione flatterin Hagrid. Is this the only time Hermione uses flattery?

Potioncat:
I'm sure it's not, but I can't think of a good example. It seems she's worked Hagrid this way a couple of times.


> 
> 3. "Dragon breeding was outlawed by the Warlocks' Convention of 1709
" RON said > that !?!! He also knows his Broomsticks. What other topics could Ron beat Hermione at in a trivia night?

Potioncat:
I don't think it's surprising that Ron knew that date--with a cool older brother who works with dragons and all. Other areas?--Wizarding folklore, for one.

> 
> 4. Only four of the teachers were members of the Order of the Phoenix. If JKR re-wrote this, would Moody, Lupin or other trusted people have been called in?
Who and why?

Potioncat:
She did call upon Moody, Lupin and Tonks for duty at Hogwarts. I think the Heads were quite capable so I don't see why she would need to re-write. Besides, if the real Moody and perhaps Shacklebolt were there, we might not have a story.


> 
> 5. Norbert was the star of this chapter. We witnessed the birth and habits of a young Dragon. But after that, he almost never got a mention. So why have Norbert there at all? Your opinion please.

Potioncat:
Yeah, how come? I really expected to see him (her?) again. JKR does that a lot, actually--spend time on a situation or character and then is done. Yet, along with the motto "Never tickle a sleeping dragon" we do get to see different dragons in the series.

She also uses this episode to mirror the Marauder-Snape dynamic. We have the Trio fooling around after hours with a dangerous creature with a staff member's knowledge while Draco tries to catch them at it. 

> 
6. How did Hagrid's attitude towards Norbert develop Hagrid's character for you?
 
Potioncat:
It exposed both his tenderness and his lack of judgment. Although as someone else has pointed out, these creatures he's attracted to don't carry the same risks to him that they do for the others.  

 
> 
> 7. If you knew your plans for Norbert were leaked to Malfoy, how would you have avoided trouble?

Potioncat:
Sleeping potion.

Thanks! Good questions.





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Dec  5 03:53:28 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 03:53:28 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hev9ev+4tp5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfclfo+8aja@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188568





--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
> 
>> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, no, not just after Harry does something extraordinary rude. Harry did not do anything extraordinary rude on the first lesson. Harry did not do anything extraordinary rude on so many other instances and Snape still abused him verbally as far as I am concerned. Harry did not do anything extraordinary rude when Snape took the book he was reading away from him. Harry did not do anything rude whatsoever when Snape destroyed his potion.
> 
> Sure, Snape usually yells, he is not a physical but verbal abuser as far as I am concerned
> 

Nikkalmati

I believe there probably is a rule against taking library books out of doors (although didn't SS take the book from HG?) We have no evidence SS destroyed the potion - he merely sneered at Harry for being such a klutz.  You are not free to make things up.  

Nikkalmati
 
> Alla:
> 
> I completely disagree that it is a valid expectation that little boy who just arrives in the world unknown to him will use a rude nickname used by his father he never knew in part thanks to Snape dear.  He is a boy for crying out loud, an orphaned boy in part thanks to Snape. See, I do not like the way Dumbledore manipulated him into protecting Harry, not at all. If I look at the characters from within the story I wish he would have found another protector, trust me. I mean, I am not complaining because otherwise this story would have been so different of course. However, I think Snape owed Harry so so much that this is a debt he should have been paying, I just think he should have been decent enough to treat the boy he helped rob of childhood better. I do not think protecting his life gave him any right to verbal abuse.
> 
> 
> DISCLAIMER since I know how hot the topic of Snape as abuser always was and is. It is my opinion, just my opinion ONLY my opinion. But it is not an opinion that is ever going to change.
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla
>
Nikkalmati

I have to take the bait here and "defend" one of my favorite characters.  Well, not defend exactly, because we all agree Snape was nasty to Harry - and Hermione - and Neville - and Ron etc.  The problem may lie with the word "abuse" which has so many strong negative meanings.  

I think we see abuse in the HP books embodied in Petunia Dursley, who engaged in verbal, psychological and physical abuse of a small child at the time he was most vulnerable until he left her care.  She humiliated him, made it impossible for him to have friends, made him work like a servant, and, as his caregiver, withheld any love or appreciation.  Whatever Snape does pales in comparison.  In addition, he was a close relative and she had taken him in with a promise to care for him.  She cetrtainly violated her obligations to him. We see that even at the end she has no kind word or regrets.  I used to think she was afraid of magic, but after DH I can only see jealousy of her sister (who was always kind to her) as her sole motive for mistreating Harry.

In comparison, what Snape does to Harry is pretty minor.  He is not his HOH, and sees Harry at most a few hours a week.  Harry has built up a strong shield against any negative comments because of his experience at the Dursleys and we never see any harm come to Harry as the result of Snape's nastiness.  In fact, the only persons who suffer from Snape's comments are Hermione and Neville.  

I don't see Snape as taking revenge on Harry because of James (as Petunia takes revenge on Harry because of Petunia), but I do see him as testing and misjudging Harry.  I don't agree, Steve, that Harry was not cheeky in the first lesson.  I recall being a bit taken aback (and very much amused) and hoping nothing bad would happen to Harry because of his comments.  In my school talking back to a teacher like that would have merited an immediate trip to the principal's office. I guess no one sent students to see DD. He would only offer them a lemon sherbert.  :)  I think the scene in DH where SS tells DD Harry is "mediocre, arrogant as his father, a determined rule-breaker, delighted to find himself famous, attention-seeking and impertinent" (The Prince's Tale) occurrs after this first lesson, and is the product of Harry's own behavior.  We know, of course, SS is wrong, but from SS's limited point of view and lack of opportunity to correct this opinion Harry is not deserving of better treatent.  If Harry had been like Hermione or Neville, for example, SS would not have been so hostile, even if they had been James' children. He does take his obligation to Harry seriously even though his part in his parents deaths was two or three steps removed and unforseen at the time. 

I can't even tell you how shocked and disillusioned I was after the Pensieve scene.  It was the same to me as if a teacher had left a student in his office and come back to find the student going through his desk reading his mail! 

In any case, I think "abuse" is too strong a word and should be reserved for cases of real harm.

Nikkalmati 






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  5 15:48:11 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 15:48:11 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfclfo+8aja@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfdvbr+l7ap@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188569


Nikkalmati:

I believe there probably is a rule against taking library books out of doors
(although didn't SS take the book from HG?) We have no evidence SS destroyed the
potion - he merely sneered at Harry for being such a klutz. You are not free to
make things up.

Alla:

Unless canon shows that anybody but Snape destroyed the potion, or it fell down without his help, I am convinced that he did it, because no other parties could come as close. Of course not everybody agrees with it, but I am not making stuff up, I am just taking what I consider the simplest explanation. But if you could give me canon evidence that potion fell down without Snape's help, I will be most happy to eat my words. IMO of course. Canon based inference when no definite explanation is available other way is not making up anything. I know I did not put IMO after that sentence, but I always try so hard to make sure opinion language is used that I do not think it was unclear from my post.


Nikkalmati:
<SNIP>
I have to take the bait here and "defend" one of my favorite characters. Well,
not defend exactly, because we all agree Snape was nasty to Harry - and Hermione
- and Neville - and Ron etc. The problem may lie with the word "abuse" which
has so many strong negative meanings.

Alla:

I am going to say something and please do not think of me as being snippy, because I am not trying to be at all, this is actually the main reason I am responding to this post. I do not DO baits, period. I just do not. The reason why I put so many warnings on my post including the caption is because having debated this subject over the years in some very heated debates, I **know** how many people are tired of it (personally I still do not mind talking about it) and how many people are disagreeing with what Snape's does to be called abuse. So I thought I was respecting other list members' to make sure that everybody who hates or just tired of this subject clearly sees it, since as many know I am also pretty set in my views on this and not going to give up calling Snape **abuser**, since I interpret what he does as very real abuse.

Nikkalmati:
<SNIP>
I think we see abuse in the HP books embodied in Petunia Dursley, who engaged in
verbal, psychological and physical abuse of a small child at the time he was
most vulnerable until he left her care. She humiliated him, made it impossible
for him to have friends, made him work like a servant, and, as his caregiver,
withheld any love or appreciation.

Alla:

Agreed.

Nikkalmati:
Whatever Snape does pales in comparison. In
addition, he was a close relative and she had taken him in with a promise to
care for him. She certainly violated her obligations to him. We see that even
at the end she has no kind word or regrets. I used to think she was afraid of
magic, but after DH I can only see jealousy of her sister (who was always kind
to her) as her sole motive for mistreating Harry.

Alla:

The difference between your position and mine is that I do not evaluate what Snape did to Harry by comparing it with what other people did to him. I completely agree that what Snape did pales in comparison to what Petunia did to him, I think it was much harsher abuse, although I happen to believe that if Snape was forced to take Harry in as so many fanfic authors speculated, he would have been treating Harry just as bad as Petunia did, but this is of course just speculation with no proof.

In any event, as I said I do not **compare** Snape's deeds with anybody else's. I will happily agree that his abuse is LESS, but to me it still qualifies as abuse.

Nikkalmati:
<SNIP>
I don't see Snape as taking revenge on Harry because of James (as Petunia takes
revenge on Harry because of Petunia), but I do see him as testing and misjudging
Harry. I don't agree, Steve, that Harry was not cheeky in the first lesson. I
recall being a bit taken aback (and very much amused) and hoping nothing bad
would happen to Harry because of his comments. In my school talking back to a
teacher like that would have merited an immediate trip to the principal's
office. I guess no one sent students to see DD. He would only offer them a lemon
sherbert. :) <SNIP>


Alla:

I completely agree with Steve, after what Snape did to Harry on the first lesson, I absolutely refuse to put ANY responsibility for any future misgivings on Harry's shoulders, no matter how many misgivings Harry indeed committed. I think he attacked the boy, who looked like James, who did not know swat about WW and it all went downhill from there.

I think it was Snape's responsibility to ignore how Harry looks and treat him fairly.

But here are couple posts by Geoff from discussion about first lesson, which pretty much sum up how I feel about it. Just not feeling much to repeating it. You will see my posts there too. Needless to say I despise Snape's behavior at the first lesson with passion and every time when I reread the first lesson it reminds me why I am so happy that Snape dies at the end. No kidding here by the way, no baiting or anything like that.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185861

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185870



Nikkalmati:
<SNIP>
In any case, I think "abuse" is too strong a word and should be reserved for
cases of real harm.

Alla:

Well, the difference between our positions is that I call it abuse based on Snape's intent and I believe JKR's words that Snape hated Harry till the day he died.

Just my opinion,

Alla





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Dec  5 16:17:50 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 16:17:50 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdimlh+hn6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfe13e+f27e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188570




> 
> 
> 1.  Per the narrative, "Hermione had become a bit more relaxed about breaking rules since Harry and Ron had saved her from the mountain troll, and she was much nicer for it" [US hardback, p. 181].  Please discuss the notion of being more relaxed about rule-breaking translating into being a nicer person, either in general terms or re: Hermione specifically.

Nikkalmati
> 

Kids at this age generally see the teachers and the students as "us" and "them."  The authority of the teachers is expressed in rules.  If a student adhers too strictly to rules she puts herself on the side of the teachers and against the other students.  I think Hermione chose the side of the students and her friends, so she seemed nicer.

Nikkalmati


> 2.  Is Harry correct that Snape made up the rule about no books outside school on the spot?  Or do you believe it truly was a Hogwarts rule?  Is this yet another example of Snape picking on Harry unfairly, or is it yet another example of the trio assuming negative things about Snape unfairly?

Nikkalmati

This is a perfectly reasonable rule - that library book are not to be taken outside.  Many libraries don't allow reference books to be taken out of the room itself.  Lots of things could happen to a book outside, such as it could fall in the lake or be burned up by blue flames. :)  OTOH Snape was looking for what the Trio was doing wrong.  They must have looked suspicious since they were trying to hide the blue flames and the book was the only thing he could find. LOL.  It was not as though the Trio were studying.  I suspect that even Hermione does not know all the rules yet.  Note Harry was not afraid  to go and ask for it back, so he wasn't traumitized.

Nikkalmati
 
> 
> 3.  When Harry & Ron express their belief that Snape had tried to get past the three-headed dog to whatever it was guarding, Hermione says, "No ? he wouldn't.  I know he's not very nice, but he wouldn't try and steal something Dumbledore was keeping safe."  Ron snaps back, "Honestly, Hermione, you think all teachers are saints or something.  I'm with Harry, I wouldn't put anything past Snape" [p. 183].  
> 
> This exchange seems to express much of the crux of the mystery which surrounded Snape all the years we waited for the conclusion of the series:  Is he the kind of person about whom one could rightfully say "I'd never put anything past him"? Or is he to be trusted never to go against something Dumbledore has asked of him?  Was JKR thinking that far ahead at this point??  Do Harry, Ron and/or Hermione ever change their basic opinion as expressed here at any point before the final reveal on Severus Snape?

Nikkalmati

Well, I think we know that SS would do anything DD asked by now.  We also know DD trusted him - the only person DD trusted, apparently.  He would not have trusted SS, if he thought there was a chance he would go against him.  I think JKR had all the major points sketched out and knew where things were going.  I don't think either Ron or Hermione change their points of view.  Unfortunately, we don't see much about this in DH.  Harry's view of SS gets worse as time goes on until he doesn't even believe DD knows the truth.  The death of DD confirms his own opinion that SS is evil.  I don't think that changes until the end.

Nikkalmati
> 
> 4.  Okay, harken back.  The FIRST time you read this, did you have any inkling that the broomstick jinx *wasn't* Snape's doing, or that it *was* Quirrell's?

> Nikkalmati

No clue that it was anyone else.

Nikkalmati (thanks Susan)





From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Dec  5 17:22:35 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 17:22:35 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hdqcoc+800l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfe4sr+104i3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188571



? 
> 
> Potioncat:
> You know how some staircases and hallways go different places on different days of the week? I think time is a bit dodgy at Hogwarts too. I used a time turner and read ch 17. Quirrell confirms that Snape was bitten on Halloween trying to head him off. All I can think is that Snape was trying to do the same heroic dash through the trap door that Harry will do later on--to see if Quirrell had gotten in.
> 
> But I agree there seems to be a longer passage of time between Halloween and the day before the Quidditch match. Harry does notice that Snape is limping when he approaches them and takes QTTA. But there wasn't any indication before that he had been injured.
>
Nikkalmati

Golly was this just another mistake by JKR?  I was about to propose that Filch and SS were assigned to feed Fluffy and that SS took his eyes off Fluffy for a moment.  They stopped off in the staff room to stop the worst of the bleeding before SS went to the infirmary.  I dont's think SS is shown as a healer in general.  He makes healing potions and he knows the (probably secret) cure for Sectumsempra, but I am not sure he can cure dog bites - or snake bites - by himself.

  Why wouldn't SS know that music put Fluffy to sleep?

Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Sat Dec  5 17:52:46 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 17:52:46 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfdvbr+l7ap@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfe6le+l67q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188572



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I am going to say something and please do not think of me as being snippy, because I am not trying to be at all, this is actually the main reason I am responding to this post. I do not DO baits, period. I just do not. The reason why I put so many warnings on my post including the caption is because having debated this subject over the years in some very heated debates, I **know** how many people are tired of it (personally I still do not mind talking about it) and how many people are disagreeing with what Snape's does to be called abuse. 

Nikkalmati

Sorry, I did not mean to imply by my use of the phrase "rise to the bait" that you were trying to trick anyone or were being underhanded.  For me the name Snape in the title is the bait and believe me I have read enough posts (before and after DH) to know this controversy has gone on and on.  So, I mean, I knew what I was getting into and I know you didn't plan to start a fight.  I apologize.  

Nikkalmati


 Nikkalmati:
> 
>  We have no evidence SS destroyed the
> potion - he merely sneered at Harry for being such a klutz. You are not free to
> make things up.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Unless canon shows that anybody but Snape destroyed the potion, or it fell down without his help, I am convinced that he did it, because no other parties could come as close. Of course not everybody agrees with it, but I am not making stuff up, I am just taking what I consider the simplest explanation. But if you could give me canon evidence that potion fell down without Snape's help, I will be most happy to eat my words. IMO of course. Canon based inference when no definite explanation is available other way is not making up anything. I know I did not put IMO after that sentence, but I always try so hard to make sure opinion language is used that I do not think it was unclear from my post.

Nikkalmati

Yes, it is speculation that SS knocked over the potion and I don't see much reason for him to do so unless he knocked over every potion Harry turned in.  Every theory cannot be countered by specific proof in canon of the opposite, or it would not be a theory.  I see this incident as one of a long line of incidents designed by the author to mislead the reader into thinking SS is evil.

Nikkalmati

> Alla:
> 
> I completely agree with Steve, after what Snape did to Harry on the first lesson, I absolutely refuse to put ANY responsibility for any future misgivings on Harry's shoulders, no matter how many misgivings Harry indeed committed. I think he attacked the boy, who looked like James, who did not know swat about WW and it all went downhill from there.
> 
> I think it was Snape's responsibility to ignore how Harry looks and treat him fairly.
> 
>

Nikkalmati

Yes, in an ideal world. 

Nikkalmati 





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  5 19:13:17 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 19:13:17 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 14, Norbert The Norwegian Ridgeback
In-Reply-To: <hf7b8j+jj7k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfebcd+tmv6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188573

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Aussie" <upf_geelong at ...> wrote:

> 2. "We wondered who Dumbledore had trusted 
 apart from you" 
> Hermione flattering Hagrid. Is this the only time Hermione 
> uses flattery?


zanooda:

I think Hermione used flattery on Lockhart in CoS, to convince him to sign the permission slip so that she could get "Moste Potente Potions" from the library" :-). 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  5 19:25:44 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 19:25:44 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfe6le+l67q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfec3o+1srg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188574



Nikkalmati

Sorry, I did not mean to imply by my use of the phrase "rise to the bait" that
you were trying to trick anyone or were being underhanded. For me the name
Snape in the title is the bait and believe me I have read enough posts (before
and after DH) to know this controversy has gone on and on. So, I mean, I knew
what I was getting into and I know you didn't plan to start a fight. I
apologize.

Alla:

Thank you. :)


Nikkalmati

Yes, it is speculation that SS knocked over the potion and I don't see much
reason for him to do so unless he knocked over every potion Harry turned in. 
Every theory cannot be countered by specific proof in canon of the opposite, or
it would not be a theory. I see this incident as one of a long line of
incidents designed by the author to mislead the reader into thinking SS is evil.

Alla:

I disagree that it is speculation. Of course we are just disagreeing on the degree of what it is. I certainly am not saying it is a canon fact, but to me it is almost a canon fact. I am sure you heard of the expression "res ipsa loquitur". It is from legal profession, but I think it is pretty well known now, it means thing speaks for itself.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_ipsa_loquitur

But as we decided with Potioncat long time ago, I can allow for possibility of Snape's twins doing it :)

Seriously though, when I read for the first time that not everybody agrees with it, I was shocked. Not because I dislike Snape so much, but it was just like huh, who else could have done it. Again, it is my opinion, I am just saying that it was hard for me to understand it.

I am trying to come up with the example. Oh, I know, say we would have read the incident with Beacky and Malfoy  and it was not described in sufficient detail, we would have read that Malfoy came to him smirking and next line would have describing Malfoy on the ground being hurt. And then somebody would argue that Beacky did not do it, I would be thinking HUH, who else could have done it.

> Alla:
<SNIP>
> I think it was Snape's responsibility to ignore how Harry looks and treat him
fairly.
>
>

Nikkalmati

Yes, in an ideal world.


Alla:

If the world where teachers behave as professionals is an ideal one, then sure.








From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  5 19:39:44 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 19:39:44 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 11, QUIDDITCH
In-Reply-To: <hfe4sr+104i3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfecu0+mgtg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188575

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:

> > Potioncat:

> > Harry does notice that Snape is limping when he approaches 
> > them and takes QTTA. But there wasn't any indication before 
> > that he had been injured.

> Nikkalmati
 
> I was about to propose that Filch and SS were assigned to 
> feed Fluffy and that SS took his eyes off Fluffy for a moment.  
> They stopped off in the staff room to stop the worst of the 
> bleeding before SS went to the infirmary.  


zanooda:

I thought that maybe Fluffy was not just a very big dog with three heads, but that he was also somehow magical, meaning that his bite was not easily healed and it could get worse with time, or the wound could reopen. Maybe it's something like when Arthur Weasley couldn't stop bleeding after the snake's bite? 

Or even simpler: Fluffy didn't have a very clean mouth (who knows what he eats?) and the wound got infected. That would explain why Snape started limping only a few days later - the infection needed some time to spread to get worse. Madam Pomfrey would have cured a non-magical injury though ... so I'm not sure. Anyway, this is all that comes to mind right now :-).




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Dec  6 18:00:00 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 6 Dec 2009 18:00:00 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/6/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1260122400.520.97811.m13@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188576

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Dec  6 20:55:14 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 20:55:14 -0000
Subject: Good Person turned Evil / Marietta /  Chapter 14
Message-ID: <hfh5ni+1d4i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188577

Alla wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188539>:

<< I do not believe that a person who became a traitor for example would have become one if he did not have it in him. I do not believe that a person who became a member of the gang of murderers and torturers would have become one if the person did not want to. >>

I do not agree with you. I consider myself more of a headline reader than a news junkie, and still I have been presented with many, many examples of what people are willing to do when in fear of death. 

One young man turned himself in to the Hague Tribunal and pled guilty to crimes against humanity because he had been a member of a Bosnian Serb militia unit that captured a village and brought all the residents to a central point and then the leader ordered them to shoot all the prisoners. This young man protested and the leader told him, his choice was to follow orders or he could join the prisoners and also be shot. 

Doesn't that remind you of the child soldiers kidnapped and enslaved by so many (mostly private) armies in Africa? Except that any of them who objected to killing civilians would have been killed without being offered a choice -- the adult would have ordered the other children to kill him or her, and any child who objected to killing a comrade would also have been killed... a traumatic and memorable lesson in obedience.

Steve winterfell wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188551>:

<< Marietta for example was influenced to some degree by her mother's position at the MOM, and her mother's support of Umbridge's policies, but that didn't excuse her for betraying her schoolmates. >>

Everyone was so angry at Percy because he gave his allegiance to the legal government and the people whom he believed to be telling the truth at the cost of breaking up with his family. Everyone talked like being loyal to one's family was a moral duty. Then they condemned Marietta for being loyal to her family.

I consider that to be the third of three parallels. The first is the young man who turns traitor to the side he joined in the civil war and betrays his friends to their deaths at the hands of his new side. Peter and Severus.

The second is the House Elf who disobeys and conspires against his legal owner, instead serving a human of his own choice who is an enemy of his legal owner. Dobby and Kreachur.

By the way, WHY wasn't he named Kreachy? ALL the other House Elves in canon have names ending with Y, even Hokey in the Pensieve. (Perhaps Herself chose that name to show that she thinks the Y convention is hokey?)

Aussie Hagrid discussed PS/Ss Chapter 14 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188561>:

<< 7. If you knew your plans for Norbert were leaked to Malfoy, how would you have avoided trouble? >>

Not left the Invisibility Cloak back on the Astronomy Tower.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  7 01:00:58 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 01:00:58 -0000
Subject: Good Person turned Evil / Marietta /  Chapter 14
In-Reply-To: <hfh5ni+1d4i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfhk4a+46oq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188578






> Alla wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188539>:
> 
> << I do not believe that a person who became a traitor for example would have become one if he did not have it in him. I do not believe that a person who became a member of the gang of murderers and torturers would have become one if the person did not want to. >>

Catlady:
> I do not agree with you. I consider myself more of a headline reader than a news junkie, and still I have been presented with many, many examples of what people are willing to do when in fear of death. 
<SNIP>

Alla:

To be honest I am not hundred percent sure how what you wrote necessarily translates into disagreement with what I wrote. 

My first question is how the fear of death shows itself in Peter's treachery and Snape's joining Voldemort?

Oh sure Peter talks all of that "he was taking over and I was afraid" thing. But if we are talking about fear of death, we have to mean real and imminent fear of death, are we not? Because then we can brush away so many nasty deeds as being done in fear of death IMO.


Now, if there is evidence in canon (which I do not remember any, but I am always happy to correct myself) that Peter was tortured or was really really threatened, like putting the gun to its temple and saying join or die, that sure would be a different story for me.

And I would think differently about Snape's joining too in that case.


And of course for all your examples, which I agree were done under imminent fear of death there are examples of people dying rather then becoming killers themselves.

Of course again, I think we should look at every case individually and when scared kid is forced to become child soldier, basically enslaved, I would only feel pity for him. But when a grown person thinks OH, Hitler will kill me one day if I do not join (while nothing of that would necessarily happen) and decides to go help Natzis execute jews at Babiy yar, then sorry, no, no alleged fear of death would make me think of that person as anybody else but somebody who deserves to rot in hell forever.


Anyway, all my rambling notwithstanding, I am not sure how imminent fear of death is even relevant to my point about person turning bad if person does not want to. I guess I just do not see it as a real choice, you know?

I mean, as I said I know about many heroes who died rather than serve enemy, but surely the fear of death does not really mean that person is turning bad, especially if person tries later to correct what she did, to atone for it, etc?

JMO,

Alla




From juli17 at aol.com  Mon Dec  7 02:52:46 2009
From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17ptf)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 02:52:46 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfdvbr+l7ap@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfhqlu+gcrf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188579


> 
> Alla:
> 
> The difference between your position and mine is that I do not evaluate what Snape did to Harry by comparing it with what other people did to him. I completely agree that what Snape did pales in comparison to what Petunia did to him, I think it was much harsher abuse, although I happen to believe that if Snape was forced to take Harry in as so many fanfic authors speculated, he would have been treating Harry just as bad as Petunia did, but this is of course just speculation with no proof.
> 

Julie:
So if Snape had taken Harry in when Harry was 16 months old,
you think he would have made Harry sleep in a cupboard, never
bought Harry his own clothes, made Harry work like a house elf
and never let Harry interact with anyone else, and essentially
kept Harry in a state of perpetual starvation/malnutrition?

I kind of doubt it. Yes, Harry is James' child, but he's still
a baby, thus doesn't look "just like his father" yet (the way
Harry did when he came to Hogwarts at age 11, the same age as
James' when Snape first met him). In fact, he has his mother's
startling green eyes, certainly the most prominent feature of
any baby. This could well influence how Snape initially reacts
to Harry.

Additionally, Snape is not the same person he would be ten 
years hence. He is still in a highly emotive state of grief
and regret, and has promised to watch over Lily's child. If
that included raising said child, I think it is just as 
possible that Snape would see Lily in those green eyes and
it might--just might--change everything. Not that Snape is
a natural father (he certainly had no role models!), but it
isn't out of the question that he could grow to love Lily's
infant son. And once you grow to love someone, well, you 
cease to notice, or at least to care what or who they may
grow to look like.

I know it could have gone the other way too, that Snape
would not be able to let go of the fact that Harry is James'
son, as Petunia couldn't let go of the fact that Harry was
Lily's son (and she had Harry for years before he would
have caused any incidents by accidental magic, yet she did
not bond with him in the slightest, so she hated him for his 
association with Lily and the magical world from the very 
beginning). 

But even if Snape hadn't been able to bring himself to care
for Harry personally, I actually can't see him forcing Harry
to sleep in a cupboard, or denying Harry food or clothing.
That goes if for some reason Dumbledore had taken Harry away
from the Dursleys once Harry came to school. Even after Snape
saw Harry as James' clone, I think he would have made sure
Harry's needs were met, including decent clothing and sufficient
food. Which isn't to say lack of affection and verbal abuse
are in and of themselves not damaging. They are. But it still
something more than Petunia gave Harry. (And why I think her
wrongs against Harry are much, MUCH more deserving of harsh
punishment than any verbal abuse Snape may have delivered.)

One thing I enjoy in fan fiction is the exploration of what
might have been if circumstances (or sometimes even just one 
fateful moment) had been different. Snape, like many of the
characters, might have gone in many different directions 
if any part of his life had been different, from during 
his childhood, including his interaction with his peers and
the supervisory (supposedly) adults around him, right to his 
adulthood and the choices he could make and those that were
taken away from him. Which I think is true for all people. 
I don't think one is born with a propensity to do good or
evil (or has to have it "in" him to kill or torture, as we
all have it in us, if the circumstances are sufficient).
For most people some mixture of fear, mistreatment/degradation,
desensitization, and hopelessness for the future will push
them to the point where they can ignore their conscience
and their humanity. (Note that I said "some" mixture of the
above. It may take quite a lot for one person--hopefully
most people--and much less for another person to abandon
their conscience.) 

The issue of mental illness makes a gray area even grayer,
IMO. Tom had signs of a sociopathic personality from an
early age. He could recognize what was socially acceptable
(right) from what was unacceptable (wrong), but whether
there is or ever will be any rehabilitation that could 
"restore" him to a normal personality--i.e., allow him to 
care for anyone outside himself--is still a mystery as far
as I know, even in the 21st century.


> 
> Nikkalmati:
> <SNIP>
> In any case, I think "abuse" is too strong a word and should be reserved for
> cases of real harm.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, the difference between our positions is that I call it abuse based on Snape's intent and I believe JKR's words that Snape hated Harry till the day he died.
> 

Julie:
Snape hating Harry is how he feels, not what he intends with 
his words and actions. If he intends to hurt and humiliate,
which I agree he does at times, that is the form of abuse to
which you are referring, I believe. I think though that Snape
also often believes he is going to "shape" Harry up, get rid
of Harry's faults that are so similar to his father's--his
supposed arrogance, his rule-breaking that is so lamentably
ignored by the Headmaster, etc. And Snape even means to teach
Harry on occasion ("That is not as bad as it might have been").
After all, he knows the boy has to defeat the Dark Lord ;-)

Julie, 
who thinks it significant that Snape's abuse is verbal
and low-level in comparison to the Dursley's, and to what
Snape is certainly capable of and could have done if he'd
given full rein to his feelings for Harry.





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Dec  7 03:07:33 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 03:07:33 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfec3o+1srg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfhrhl+83qn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188580


> Alla:
> But as we decided with Potioncat long time ago, I can allow for possibility of Snape's twins doing it :)

Potioncat:
The twins! Boy, those were the days. It took me a few minutes to remember where they actually came from.

> Alla:
> Seriously though, when I read for the first time that not everybody agrees with it, I was shocked. Not because I dislike Snape so much, but it was just like huh, who else could have done it. Again, it is my opinion, I am just saying that it was hard for me to understand it.
> 

Potioncat:
Me too. I had the same reaction--from a different point of view. It never crossed my mind as I was reading it that the vial didn't fall on its own. So it was a real surprise that there were other perspectives on it. 

My stand reminds that we have many plausible ideas, but we really don't know what happened. We do how Snape reacted--and while I can exlain his emotional state, I can't condone his response.








From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  7 03:20:59 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 03:20:59 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfhqlu+gcrf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfhsar+s84a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188581


Julie:
So if Snape had taken Harry in when Harry was 16 months old,
you think he would have made Harry sleep in a cupboard, never
bought Harry his own clothes, made Harry work like a house elf
and never let Harry interact with anyone else, and essentially
kept Harry in a state of perpetual starvation/malnutrition?

I kind of doubt it. Yes, Harry is James' child, but he's still
a baby, thus doesn't look "just like his father" yet (the way
Harry did when he came to Hogwarts at age 11, the same age as
James' when Snape first met him). In fact, he has his mother's
startling green eyes, certainly the most prominent feature of
any baby. This could well influence how Snape initially reacts
to Harry. <SNIP>

Alla:
Sorry, but to me a person who is willing to attack eleven year old because he looks as James (obviously my opinion, but this is what I am basing it on) will not treat 16 months old (or 18 months old, whatever age Harry was when Dumbledore left him at Dursley0 any nicer, IMO of course.

But obviously I cannot say that you are wrong and I do not see how you can prove that I am wrong. I think both of us are basing our speculations on what we think of Snape's character, right? I doubt that Snape would feel much more compassion for Baby!Harry who just lost his parents than for eleven year old Harry who just arrived in the brave new world.

In fact to me it is plausible that Snape would treat Harry worse because so little time passed and he will see that his precious Lily dead and Harry is alive. I somehow doubt that Snape will see the baby as anything else but reason why Lily died and I think he will take it all out on him with vengeance.

I snipped the part where you said that it could go other way because I agree with it.

Juli:
But even if Snape hadn't been able to bring himself to care
for Harry personally, I actually can't see him forcing Harry
to sleep in a cupboard, or denying Harry food or clothing.
<SNIP>

Alla:

I can and very easily at that, as I said above I think Snape will take his guilt on Harry because he is alive and Lily is dead.

Juli:
That goes if for some reason Dumbledore had taken Harry away
from the Dursleys once Harry came to school. Even after Snape
saw Harry as James' clone, I think he would have made sure
Harry's needs were met, including decent clothing and sufficient
food. Which isn't to say lack of affection and verbal abuse
are in and of themselves not damaging. They are. But it still
something more than Petunia gave Harry. (And why I think her
wrongs against Harry are much, MUCH more deserving of harsh
punishment than any verbal abuse Snape may have delivered.)

Alla:

We would never know.

Alla:
>
> Well, the difference between our positions is that I call it abuse based on
Snape's intent and I believe JKR's words that Snape hated Harry till the day he
died.
>

Julie:
Snape hating Harry is how he feels, not what he intends with
his words and actions. If he intends to hurt and humiliate,
which I agree he does at times, that is the form of abuse to
which you are referring, I believe. I think though that Snape
also often believes he is going to "shape" Harry up, get rid
of Harry's faults that are so similar to his father's--his
supposed arrogance, his rule-breaking that is so lamentably
ignored by the Headmaster, etc. And Snape even means to teach
Harry on occasion ("That is not as bad as it might have been").
After all, he knows the boy has to defeat the Dark Lord ;-)

Alla:

Right hates is how he feels, but to me how Snape feels translates perfectly into how he acts towards Harry.


Julie,
who thinks it significant that Snape's abuse is verbal
and low-level in comparison to the Dursley's, and to what
Snape is certainly capable of and could have done if he'd
given full rein to his feelings for Harry.


Alla,

who does not attach any significance whatsoever to the fact that Snape's abuse is less than Dursleys' and for whom a character who is engages in any degree of abuse is quite a disgusting one.

P.S.
I wonder why the character who abuses *less* is supposed to get a cookie because his behavior is less disgusting by comparison with more vile character? I know another character whom I think of as much more despicable abuser  than Snape ? Umbridge. But you know, I measure Snape's actions by what *he did*, not how many LESS despicable things he committed. Just imagine that we would not have Umbridge and Dursleys in the story for a second. If there is nothing to compare Snape's actions to are they better somehow? Not to me definitely not.

IMO of course and of course it is my opinion as well that I interpet Snape's actions as verbal abuse in the first place, I know not everybody shares it.







From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Mon Dec  7 14:51:55 2009
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 06:51:55 -0800
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
Message-ID: <0B601CC398714A0D9D84BF7702005B49@excessivelypPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 188582

This is how _I_ see Snape. 
 
Let's take Snape's situation as a teenager. First, he seems to have an
abusive home himself, judging by the memory in book 5, the way he's dressed
(or not, as the case may be), and his reactions to things. He is, at least,
neglected at home, and probably does not want to go back to the Muggle
school. At school, he is tormented on a regular basis (Lily is lots of
things during the Worst Memory, but surprised is not one of them). He is,
from _his_ point of view, nearly murdered by Sirus Black via werewolf. The
adminstration apparently never steps in, as Sirius Black is still present at
the school (and in Snape's opinion) allowed a second shot at his victim. (My
son, who is schizophrenic, assaulted someone at school and was suspended for
the rest of the year. His victim was protected, as Snape rather definitely
was not). Despite the Shrieking Shack incident, James Potter feels free to
attack Snape in public, which means he doesn't think he'll be punished for
it (and as we see, he is not--in fact, he begins to gain Lily's affections
because of the 'prank' which may have included being publicly stripped
naked). Lily, in fact, calls Snape 'Snivellus', and does not forgive the M
word. On the other hand, she _does_ forgive James for threatening to hex her
('don't make me hex you, Evans!') which shows that Lily _can_ forgive
insults and threats if they're from the right person. Nobody from the
administration ever interferes with the Marauders, and making Lily and James
Head Girl and Boy show the administration's approval of the couple. Sure,
Lily supposedly tells James not to torment Snivvy--but he (and his friends)
are still able to catch Snape alone without witnesses because they have the
Cloak and the Map. It would be fairly easy to dispose of a body there at
Hogwarts, and I'm sure Snape is well aware of this. He also knows that not a
single teacher will lift a finger to help him. 
 
Then Snape is given 'friendship' by a group in his own house. I very much
doubt that he is told that he going to join a group that will maim, torture
and murder Muggles and others. I believe, in my opinion, that he is
flattered and made much of by this group, and told he is very talented and
should go far. He is likely offered patronage for his future career, and
told that if he joins, they'll walk with him to classes and such to keep the
Marauders from finishing him off. By now, whether rightly or wrongly, Snape
probably suspects that James could get away with murder as long as his body
is disposed of properly. And given that he believes that they nearly did so
in his fifth year, and _did_ get away with stripping his clothes off and
nearly choking him to death with that Scourgify, he may not be wrong. 
 
During the war, by the way, the Ministry is sending people to Azkaban
without trial, torturing prisoners, and giving the Kiss without trial. It is
_not_ immediately apparent who the good guys are at this point. 
 
But with his new friends, he stands a chance of living to escape Hogwarts.
It's not till it's too late that he realizes what he's gotten into, and he
leaves. At grave risk of his life, he spies on the Death Eaters. Instead of
receiving any acclaim for his deeds, he barely escapes Azkaban and is
treated like a house elf by Dumbledore for the rest of his life. He is
virtually a prisoner of either Hogwarts, where he has very few good
memories, or of Spinners' End, which seems like Bleak House, only smaller. 
 
And then he dies, trying with his last breath to tell the son of his
greatest enemy how to defeat Voldemort. Only to be forgotten and despised by
the time of the Epilogue--Harry has to tell his son about his middle name in
a *whisper* and his main instruction to his son is "I won't hate you if you
Sort Slytherin, but here's how to get out of it". At best it's a mixed
message. 
 
Alla, if you honestly think that Snape would abuse a 16 year old child, then
I have no more to say on the subject, because you aren't going to listen to
anything anybody says about him in a positive way anyway. You hate him more
than you do Voldemort or anybody else, and I'm not entirely sure why. 
 
Jean Lamb

Do UPS workers learn Parceltongue?

tlambs1138 at charter.net

excessiveperky at LJ

 

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  7 15:32:14 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:32:14 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <0B601CC398714A0D9D84BF7702005B49@excessivelypPC>
Message-ID: <hfj75u+v145@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188583



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jean Lamb" <tlambs1138 at ...> wrote:
>
> This is how _I_ see Snape. 
<HUGE SNIP>
>> Alla, if you honestly think that Snape would abuse a 16 year old child, then
> I have no more to say on the subject, because you aren't going to listen to
> anything anybody says about him in a positive way anyway. You hate him more
> than you do Voldemort or anybody else, and I'm not entirely sure why. 
>  
><SNIP>


Alla:

Just to clarify you meant 16 months old child, right? Because I think that Snape abusing sixteen year old teenager is canon fact (IMO of course).

So, yes, as I said I of course cannot prove it, but I do not think that based on Snape's behavior towards eleven year old Harry it will be such a big stretch that he will abuse a baby. I honestly think it is a possibility. Basically nowhere in canon I see Snape offering Harry a shred of kindness and I do not see why it will be different when he was younger.

Snape after all knew that he condemns to death a couple with the baby (yes, I know, unknown couple with the baby), and here Snape would just abuse Harry. I think canon is clear that Snape wanted Harry alive, it is just I think while he felt compelled to keep the promise, he wanted to humiliate and hurt alive Harry as much as he could, miserable git IMO.


As to why I hate Snape, I think I stated some of the reasons in this thread and there are plenty more in my old posts.

Am I going to listen to anything positive about him? Of course I will, after all why I would still participate in this topic after all these years if I did not enjoy reading other side's arguments, but did I find the arguments justifying Snape's behavior towards Harry to be convincing? No, not at all. Who knows, maybe one day.

Whatever positive things canon had to say about Snape I am of course forced to acknowledge, like his service against Voldemort.

But that to me does not change how he behaved with Harry and Neville.

Oh and do I hate him more than any other character? Yes, although Dumbledore after book 7 comes pretty darn close.

I know of course that I am supposed to hate Voldemort more and on the intellectual level of reading I do that, but I find that with Snape she succeeded significantly more in portraying low level every day villain (who is I know on the right side), so sure I think I hate Snape more than Voldemort, even in real life that would be different of course.

JMO,

Alla




From juli17 at aol.com  Tue Dec  8 07:13:16 2009
From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17ptf)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 07:13:16 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfhsar+s84a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfkuac+5pcc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188584


> 
> 
> Julie,
> who thinks it significant that Snape's abuse is verbal
> and low-level in comparison to the Dursley's, and to what
> Snape is certainly capable of and could have done if he'd
> given full rein to his feelings for Harry.
> 
> 
> Alla,
> 
> who does not attach any significance whatsoever to the fact that Snape's abuse is less than Dursleys' and for whom a character who is engages in any degree of abuse is quite a disgusting one.
> 
> P.S.
> I wonder why the character who abuses *less* is supposed to get a cookie because his behavior is less disgusting by comparison with more vile character? I know another character whom I think of as much more despicable abuser  than Snape ? Umbridge. But you know, I measure Snape's actions by what *he did*, not how many LESS despicable things he committed. Just imagine that we would not have Umbridge and Dursleys in the story for a second. If there is nothing to compare Snape's actions to are they better somehow? Not to me definitely not.
> 

Julie:

Snape's actions are what they are, irrespective of how 
they compare to the actions of others. Not better or worse.
As you say, his behavior is less disgusting than the more
vile characters. Which assumes (correctly, I'd say) that
he is less vile a person and has more good in him than 
those more vile characters. 

I also don't think anyone is giving Snape a cookie because
of his unfairness and verbal abuse toward Harry. In fact,
he gets the cookie for protecting Harry, for making a promise
that he keeps right to the end of his life, for risking that
life and ultimately dying to keep said promise, and for 
becoming someone who "saves those he can" even though such
action doesn't directly serve honoring his specific promise.
I'll even take the cookie back from Snape for never getting
over his bitterness and taking it out on children, especially
Harry. So Snape is cookie-less.

And now the comparison. The Dursley's never get a cookie.
They don't do anything positive for Harry, or for anyone 
beyond themselves and their immediate family. And they lose
a cookie for deliberately and hatefully mistreating Harry.
Just so Umbridge. No cookies for her since she never did
anything honorable or worthwhile. And she loses a cookie
for her sadistic abuse of Harry with that blood quill,
among other things. So the Dursleys and Umbridge end up
-1 in the cookie department.

Then there are the -2 cookie people, the ones who not only
never did anything good for someone outside of family, but
deliberately and often with great pleasure hurt and kill
others. Greyback, who hunts children. Bellatrix, who kills
wantonly, along with her fellow unreformed and unrepentant
Death Eaters like McNair, Dolohov, the Carrows, etc. Barty
Crouch Jr, certainly. And Peter, who betrayed his friends,
resurrected Voldemort, and worst of all killed an innocent
teenage boy without hesitation or a hint of remorse (the 
latter is worth a million nasty comments of Snape's, IMO).

Voldemort? I suppose we'll top out at -3 on the cookie
scale, since he's done more evil by leaps than anyone 
else. Though I agree with you that it's difficult to 
relate to his evil on an emotional level, given that he
is such a chest-thumping idiot. 

For me comparison doesn't change anything. I still see 
Snape's good actions as essentially cancelling out (or
atoning for) his bad actions. I don't see that for the
others I've listed, most who had few if any good actions
to note.


Julie 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  8 13:23:04 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 13:23:04 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfkuac+5pcc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfljvo+n6f3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188585



> > Alla,
> > 
> > who does not attach any significance whatsoever to the fact that Snape's abuse is less than Dursleys' and for whom a character who is engages in any degree of abuse is quite a disgusting one.
> > 
> > P.S.
> > I wonder why the character who abuses *less* is supposed to get a cookie because his behavior is less disgusting by comparison with more vile character? I know another character whom I think of as much more despicable abuser  than Snape ? Umbridge. But you know, I measure Snape's actions by what *he did*, not how many LESS despicable things he committed. Just imagine that we would not have Umbridge and Dursleys in the story for a second. If there is nothing to compare Snape's actions to are they better somehow? Not to me definitely not.
> > 
> 
> Julie:
> 
> Snape's actions are what they are, irrespective of how 
> they compare to the actions of others. Not better or worse.
> As you say, his behavior is less disgusting than the more
> vile characters.

Alla:

Yes, I agree, but then you seem to compare him with other characters below anyway. I do not understand, but please read on. Actually before you read on, I should clarify that I misspoke in the last paragraph of the previous post. I should have asked if we had no Dursleys or Umbridge in the story would you consider Snape's actions WORSE than what you think of them now.

Julie:
>Which assumes (correctly, I'd say) that
> he is less vile a person and has more good in him than 
> those more vile characters. 


Alla:

No, see it does not assume any such thing, not for me. If I call the character's behavior less disgusting than other characters, it is still possible for me to decide that BOTH characters' behavior has a very long way to go before I consider them to be a behavior a good person.

For example, to use a RL example, say somebody deliberately killed a person (not at war, not during self defense, not a crime of passion), just deliberately planned a murder say to take this person's money. I would be disgusted by such a person, but say he or she never did it again. Enters a person who did such thing many many times. Would I be disgusted by such person ten times more? Of course! But I would never call any of those people good ones.

Oh and again, to let it out of the way, sure I know Voldemort is supposed to be a monster, really I get that and as I said before I know that on the intellectual level I am supposed to hate it the most. She just for the most part did not convince me (I know I wrote about it before, but it is relevant here), I mean there are some good horror scenes, but he is just too cartoonish for me, same with Greyback and most other DE. I know Snape is not a DE, he is just an everyday evil disgusting person, on the right side, to me of course.

Julie:
> I also don't think anyone is giving Snape a cookie because
> of his unfairness and verbal abuse toward Harry.

Alla:

Hm, good to know :-)

Julie:
>In fact,
> he gets the cookie for protecting Harry, for making a promise
> that he keeps right to the end of his life, for risking that
> life and ultimately dying to keep said promise, and for 
> becoming someone who "saves those he can" even though such
> action doesn't directly serve honoring his specific promise.
> I'll even take the cookie back from Snape for never getting
> over his bitterness and taking it out on children, especially
> Harry. So Snape is cookie-less.

Alla:

Well, again, yes of course he became a person who learned that human life is valuable, I know that. It is just to me that does not cancel out how he treated a person whose life he agreed to protect.

Julie: 
> And now the comparison. The Dursley's never get a cookie.
> They don't do anything positive for Harry, or for anyone 
> beyond themselves and their immediate family. <SNIP of giving out cookies> For me comparison doesn't change anything. I still see 
> Snape's good actions as essentially cancelling out (or
> atoning for) his bad actions. I don't see that for the
> others I've listed, most who had few if any good actions
> to note.


Alla:

See, for me Snape's service against Voldemort may cancel him being a DE, but I do not see anything he did as cancelling out how he treated Harry and Neville, it is all there staring me in the face and not mitigated by anything. In fact as I am sure I mentioned before to me the fact that he made a promise makes it worse, I wish Dumbledore never made him do it, but as far as I am concerned if Snape had any shred of decency he would have treated Harry differently.

JMO,

Alla




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Dec  9 01:07:11 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 01:07:11 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfj75u+v145@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfmt7v+988f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188586

Pippin:
As far as whether Rowling wants us to hate Snape or forgive him, I think we might be  missing the point. What she wants us to see, IMO, is how our judgement, like Harry's, is distorted by our feelings. As long as Harry hates Snape, he thinks Snape  is capable of doing the  worst things that Harry can imagine, regardless of whether there's  evidence or not. OTOH, Harry has a hard time acknowledging, much less imagining, any  misdeeds of the people he admires, even when they've crossed an obvious line and he's seen it with his own eyes. Or done them himself. 

 JKR  demonstrates it to us over and over again:  you can't hate anyone and still be fair to them. You just can't. Even if you are devoted to to the good side through and through and so brave  that you would give your life for it. So, IMO, the ultimate choice in the books, and the reason that she says their theme is tolerance (and not courage), isn't between courage and cowardice. It's between hatred and fairness. As long as  neither Gryffindor nor Slytherin is able to turn away from hate, the choice between the houses isn't the one that ultimately matters. 

Harry ultimately transcends his hatred of Snape. He achieves a state in which he can imagine himself unscarred, undamaged, all his needs met and all his questions answered (except for the one he declines to ask). All despite his inability to console or heal  the  wounded child he once was (and which Voldemort will become.) 

So, I think JKR is asking us, could we not also find a way to  ignore the whimpers of the inconsolable child within us? We need not fear that it will leave us unable to respond to the needs of other children. It is those who cannot transcend their own childhood traumas who are unable to help Harry in that way. Snape, of course, but also Petunia and Sirius, not to mention Voldemort himself.  

As for Harry, I don't think  he speaks to Albus Severus about his middle name in a whisper because this is a huge secret.  Albus shows no surprise, unlike when he hears that Harry could have been sorted into Slytherin.  IMO, Harry whispers because he knows, from that first experience in Snape's class,  how it would feel to be  lectured in front of your classmates about something everyone would expect you to know.  

Harry returned to the "real" world more sensitive,  more able to withstand the desire to return cruelty for cruelty, even when he was pierced by the (finger) nails of his adversary. Harry had no further desire to visit revenge  on the Malfoys or quarrel with them, or even force improvement on them, although they never thoroughly change their ways.  He has learned that Nemesis is a false god whose worship leads only to moral paralysis.  

Dumbledore was unable to hold Grindelwald to account for his crimes because he believed he would then have to account for his own. It was only when DD realized his task was not to punish Grindelwald but to keep him from doing more harm that he was able to act. 

I know this post is getting long, but I'd like to add something about the role of Snape and the surviving Marauders. It seems to me that each of them is stuck at one of the stages of grief and is able, through interaction with Harry, to move on to the next stage before his death. 

Wormtail is in denial. "I never meant for it to happen." He moves on to bargaining. "You owe me" Harry tells him. 

Snape is caught in bargaining, so his move to anger is actually positive, though Harry, caught in the crossfire, probably  would not think so. 

Sirius is trapped by his anger. "I want to commit the crime I was imprisoned for" (My quotes are from memory here, so please forgive me if they're not exact.) In one of the saddest parts of the books, Sirius moves away from his anger only to find himself in the stage of despair at Grimmauld Place, and  does not get the chance to move beyond it. 

But that is why it takes courage to move through grief and recover from hatred. The path away from hate is a bitter one in canon,  rewarding in the end, but  there is no guarantee that one will survive long enough to reach it. Remorse, Hermione warns us, can destroy as well as heal. 

 It is only Lupin, who begins in despair and self-loathing, who is able to come to full acceptance of James and Lily's death. After recapitulating denial, bargaining, anger and despair in his little talk with Harry at  Grimmauld Place, he finally ceases to mourn the Potters, and when he gives his life, it is for the sake of his own son's future, not because he owes it to James. 

Pippin







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  9 02:44:14 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 02:44:14 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfmt7v+988f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfn2tu+b91l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188587



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> Pippin:
> As far as whether Rowling wants us to hate Snape or forgive him, I think we might be  missing the point. What she wants us to see, IMO, is how our judgement, like Harry's, is distorted by our feelings. <HUGE SNIP>

Alla:
Well, no, unless you are arguing that JKR really is saying that verbal abuse is a good thing and we are supposed to see it as such I do not agree with it.

I am sure JKR wants us to see Snape's service against Voldemort as a good thing, I am less sure but pretty sure that she wants us to see Snape's protecting Harry's life as a good thing, which I do sort of.

But no, I do not think that she wants us to realize that how Snape treated Harry is a good thing and we are supposed to see it unless our judgment is distorted by our feelings.

I think she wants us to forgive Snape for how he treated Harry, sure, just as Harry did. But since I see Harry as Christ figure, it works for me that he did that and since I do not see myself as Christ figure it does not work for me.

I am sure JKR wants me to forgive Dumbledore too.

You know, Snape did a lot of things which are in canon and my hate of this character is based on his actions, not on just hating his character. In fact as I said many times at times I found it incredibly frustrating since Snape's character type is usually the one I go for in the book if I see it.

JMO,

Alla




From tammymckillip at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  9 03:16:50 2009
From: tammymckillip at yahoo.com (Tammy McKillip)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 19:16:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfn2tu+b91l@eGroups.com>
References: <hfn2tu+b91l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <846594.70092.qm@web110316.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

> Pippin:
> As far as whether Rowling wants us to hate Snape or forgive him, I >think we might be missing the point. <SNIP of the whole post>

A?JKR wants us to forgive Snape and Dumbledore both. They both care for Harry and they are?doing this to save him. Yes it hurts Harry but It also makes him stronger. That is what I think.

Tammy





From tlambs1138 at charter.net  Wed Dec  9 03:42:14 2009
From: tlambs1138 at charter.net (Jean Lamb)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 19:42:14 -0800
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
Message-ID: <03A56563746543B092ED86E4A8D54AED@excessivelypPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 188589

Let's see--Snape spent two wars risking his life for the Order, was treated
like crap all his life, died for people who couldn't be bothered to take a
pulse and/or close his eyes, gets to be hated by the WW forever, and he
doesn't get a cookie because he yelled at Harry (never mind he was forced
into being there at Hogwarts in the first place) I grew up knowing the
difference between being hit and being yelled at, folks, and they are not
the same. It's clear that Harry can't seem to distinguish between the
Dursleys, Snape, Voldemort and the other DEs, which I find rather odd. 
 
It would have served the Order right if he'd snapped his wand out of
Hogwarts and left for the Muggle (and then find a magical community
somewhere else and get a new wand). I'm sure there would be lots of people
volunteering for his role, right? 
 
Oh, sorry, Regulus Black died nearly alone, too, fighting Voldemort (at
least he had a house elf to mourn him). 
 
Frankly, I have to wonder why Snape _left_ Voldemort given how he was
treated by those he died for. 
 
But of course he gets no credit for it _here_. 
 
Toodles. Have a nice we-all-hate-Snape group. 
 
Without me. 
 

Jean Lamb

Do UPS workers learn Parceltongue?

tlambs1138 at charter.net

excessiveperky at LJ

 

 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Dec  9 04:44:38 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 04:44:38 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfn2tu+b91l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfn9vm+mgdo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188590


> > Pippin:
> > As far as whether Rowling wants us to hate Snape or forgive him, I think we might be  missing the point. What she wants us to see, IMO, is how our judgement, like Harry's, is distorted by our feelings. <HUGE SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> Well, no, unless you are arguing that JKR really is saying that verbal abuse is a good thing and we are supposed to see it as such I do not agree with it.

Pippin:

Of course not. If she thought it was a good thing, there'd be no need to forgive it. No one can deserve forgiveness -- the whole idea is that it's a gift, unearned.  But  Harry was willing to forgive people he likes for things that were just as bad, and  wasn't willing to even consider that Snape might be innocent of anything he imagined Snape capable of doing. His hatred made him unfair, and I think it is JKR's premise that hatred makes everyone unfair.   So, IMO, she says we have to choose between hatred and fairness.  We can only have a fairer world if we choose not to bring hatred into it. That means we will have to learn how to forgive. 

Harry does that by re-enacting Christ's sacrifice, but that doesn't bother me as a non-Christian. I believe there are other ways to forgive as well. 

Of course since Snape isn't real it does no harm to anyone if we hate him. JKR makes it easier to hate him, in a way, than to hate Voldemort. By the end it is clear that Voldemort was always mentally and emotionally crippled, and most of us have powerful cultural inhibitions against hating people who have been damaged in this way. It seems like Snape had more chances to love and forgive than Voldie did and turned his back on them. 

But JKR shows us, through Sirius, what Snape might have had to go through if he had given up his anger.  It's not like you give up your anger over your old hurts and are instantly healed. You're faced with your own responsibility for your condition, and the reality of what you've lost, and it's devastating. It's a long path, and it may not end in this world. 

She doesn't kid us that it's an easy choice to make, but it's pretty clear to me which one she thinks is the right choice. But it's also a choice that even Harry can't make without support. The tragedy to me is that Sirius had people who would have supported him   through  it and didn't get the time, and Snape had the time, but not the support.

Pippin






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  9 17:15:49 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:15:49 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <03A56563746543B092ED86E4A8D54AED@excessivelypPC>
Message-ID: <hfom05+41kg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188591



Jean:

Let's see--Snape spent two wars risking his life for the Order, was treated
like crap all his life, died for people who couldn't be bothered to take a
pulse and/or close his eyes, gets to be hated by the WW forever, and he
doesn't get a cookie because he yelled at Harry (never mind he was forced
into being there at Hogwarts in the first place).

Alla:

You mean spent one war, risking his life for the Order, right? Last time I checked he spent first war being the member of Voldemort's gang. And why exactly the people who saw him killing Dumbledore and does not know that he did it on Dumbledore's request should care how he died?

One of those people surely did everything possible to make sure Snape is known as a hero after he knew what Snape did.

And no, he gets no cookie from me for running his mouth at Harry, none.

Jean:
I grew up knowing the
difference between being hit and being yelled at, folks, and they are not
the same. It's clear that Harry can't seem to distinguish between the
Dursleys, Snape, Voldemort and the other DEs, which I find rather odd.

Alla:

Could it be that Harry cannot distinguish between Snape and Dursleys is because while Snape and Dursleys act differently, Harry is picking up on how they feel about him and to me the feeling is pretty much the same ? Snape hates Harry and Petunia hates him? IMO of course.

Jean:
It would have served the Order right if he'd snapped his wand out of
Hogwarts and left for the Muggle (and then find a magical community
somewhere else and get a new wand). I'm sure there would be lots of people
volunteering for his role, right?

Alla:

You mean volunteer for the role of the man who sold young couple and their baby to a monster and then agreed to atone for that role by doing a dangerous job of the spy?

Well, I sure hope that a person who committed such act in the first place and would claim to want to be a half decent human being would want to do something to atone for his mistakes.

As to other spies, um, Lupin went to werewolves, it was never elaborated upon, but it was mentioned that Dumbledore had "spies" in the first war, plural.

Jean:
Frankly, I have to wonder why Snape _left_ Voldemort given how he was
treated by those he died for.
Alla:

I don't know, maybe because he realized that Voldemort's goals are pretty horrible and he would agree to do anything he could to atone for supporting these goals in the first place, even if he does not get pat on the back for that? IMO of course

Jean:
But of course he gets no credit for it _here_.
Toodles. Have a nice we-all-hate-Snape group.
Without me.

Alla:

This group has a lot of Snape's fans for whom Snape gets a credit for everything. It is just not too many people post here anymore, but even in this thread there seems to be only one person who hates Snape ? myself. Pippin and Potioncat are Snape's fans. Nikkalmati is a Snape fan, etc, etc, etc.

This is certainly not a group, whose predominant mood is to hate Snape, I am sorry if it feels to you that way, I wish you would reconsider leaving. 

Alla






From winterfell7 at hotmail.com  Wed Dec  9 22:53:11 2009
From: winterfell7 at hotmail.com (SteveE)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:53:11 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfn9vm+mgdo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfp9on+cp88@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188592


> > > Pippin:
> > > As far as whether Rowling wants us to hate Snape or forgive him, I think we might be  missing the point. What she wants us to see, IMO, is how our judgement, like Harry's, is distorted by our feelings. <HUGE SNIP>
> > 
> > Alla:
> > Well, no, unless you are arguing that JKR really is saying that verbal abuse is a good thing and we are supposed to see it as such I do not agree with it.
> 
> Pippin:
> 
> Of course not. If she thought it was a good thing, there'd be no need to forgive it. No one can deserve forgiveness -- the whole idea is that it's a gift, unearned.  But  Harry was willing to forgive people he likes for things that were just as bad, and  wasn't willing to even consider that Snape might be innocent of anything he imagined Snape capable of doing. His hatred made him unfair, and I think it is JKR's premise that hatred makes everyone unfair.   So, IMO, she says we have to choose between hatred and fairness.  We can only have a fairer world if we choose not to bring hatred into it. That means we will have to learn how to forgive. 
> 
<Huge Snip>

Steve replies:  I actually agree to a large degree w/ Pippin's points on hatred vs fairness.  You have to apply it w/ Snape though too, as his hatred for James prevented him from being fair w/ Harry.  But it's a very good point that JKR does present characters hatred clouding their objective judgement and overall fairness.  That's human nature to a degree as well, of course.  It is hard to be fair and objective even w/ fictional characters that we don't like, or even hate.




From winterfell7 at hotmail.com  Wed Dec  9 23:41:33 2009
From: winterfell7 at hotmail.com (SteveE)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 23:41:33 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfom05+41kg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfpcjd+bhu7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188593

<SNIP>
> Jean:
> I grew up knowing the
> difference between being hit and being yelled at, folks, and they are not
> the same. It's clear that Harry can't seem to distinguish between the
> Dursleys, Snape, Voldemort and the other DEs, which I find rather odd.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Could it be that Harry cannot distinguish between Snape and Dursleys is because while Snape and Dursleys act differently, Harry is picking up on how they feel about him and to me the feeling is pretty much the same ? Snape hates Harry and Petunia hates him? IMO of course.
>

Steve:  I agree that Snape, LV, DE's, and the Dursleys all are abusive to Harry in different ways by the way they act toward him.  The Dursleys abuse and neglect him, LV tries openly to kill him and killed his parents, DE's also have tried to kill him, and Snape albeit unknowingly to some degree betrayed his parents and verbally abused him and has a history of hating those Harry loves.  I don't know if Harry has trouble distinguishing between all of these different people, or not, I'm not aware of canon supporting that doesn't understand the differences of how they treat him and view him.  All I know is that Harry is justifiably angry at all of them and dislikes being mistreated, abused, yelled at, or treated unfairly. I think it's the actions and feelings of those people towards Harry that Harry is opposed to.

> Jean:
> It would have served the Order right if he'd snapped his wand out of
> Hogwarts and left for the Muggle (and then find a magical community
> somewhere else and get a new wand). I'm sure there would be lots of people
> volunteering for his role, right?
> 
> Alla:
> 
> You mean volunteer for the role of the man who sold young couple and their baby to a monster and then agreed to atone for that role by doing a dangerous job of the spy?
> 
> Well, I sure hope that a person who committed such act in the first place and would claim to want to be a half decent human being would want to do something to atone for his mistakes.

<SNIP>

Steve: I agree that Snape has reasons to feel unappreciated, perhaps, at least from his pov.  However, given his actions as a DE and his offering up info on the Potters to LV, Snape is also lucky to even be teaching at Hogwarts.  He has a position of respect and power, he is given a chance by DD to atone for his mistakes, and he is the one who chose to be a double agent.  He wasn't under the Imperius spell or anything.   

> Jean:
> Frankly, I have to wonder why Snape _left_ Voldemort given how he was
> treated by those he died for.
> Alla:
> 
> I don't know, maybe because he realized that Voldemort's goals are pretty horrible and he would agree to do anything he could to atone for supporting these goals in the first place, even if he does not get pat on the back for that? IMO of course
>
Steve:  It is unfortunate that Snape's actions against LV and his real role in DD's death wasn't wider known.  It was a natural consequence of being a double agent however, and Snape did know the risks that that entailed. Unsung heroes are a mainstay in literature as they are in real life. Snape sacrificed himself in many ways throughout the 7 novels. And many people didn't realize this, at least while he was alive. And while I don't really like him as a person, I am grateful to him for the sacrifices he made that helped Harry overcome LV and allow good to triumph over evil in the end.
 
> Jean:
> But of course he gets no credit for it _here_.
> Toodles. Have a nice we-all-hate-Snape group.
> Without me.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> This group has a lot of Snape's fans for whom Snape gets a credit for everything. It is just not too many people post here anymore, but even in this thread there seems to be only one person who hates Snape ? myself. Pippin and Potioncat are Snape's fans. Nikkalmati is a Snape fan, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> This is certainly not a group, whose predominant mood is to hate Snape, I am sorry if it feels to you that way, I wish you would reconsider leaving. 
> 
> Alla

Steve:  I will agree that I am not a big fan of Snape and have disliked him in several ways throughout the books. Believe me, there are major Snape supporters on this group.  So much so that I refrained from posting often because I didn't feel like I would objectively be listened to.  But I've enjoyed your posts, Jean, and have respected your pov a lot.  And, when all is said and done, in retrospect after DH, and in part from reading passionate and articulate posts like yours, I am willing to forgive Severus Snape for his transgressions. And, for me that's a major concession...lol.





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 10 00:52:19 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:52:19 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfmt7v+988f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfpgo3+3ea7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188594



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> Pippin:
<snipping much that I agree with>

> Harry ultimately transcends his hatred of Snape. He achieves a state in which he can imagine himself unscarred, undamaged, all his needs met and all his questions answered (except for the one he declines to ask). All despite his inability to console or heal  the  wounded child he once was (and which Voldemort will become.) 
> 

Montavilla47:
It's an interesting idea that the child might be Harry's own inner child. 
But JKR stated that it was Voldemort's soul there--not Harry's.


Pippin:
> Harry returned to the "real" world more sensitive,  more able to withstand the desire to return cruelty for cruelty, even when he was pierced by the (finger) nails of his adversary. Harry had no further desire to visit revenge  on the Malfoys or quarrel with them, or even force improvement on them, although they never thoroughly change their ways.  He has learned that Nemesis is a false god whose worship leads only to moral paralysis.  
> 

Montavilla47:
I would find that more compelling if the Fiendfyre scene had taken place
after Harry's return from the dead.  As the story goes, he started wanting
revenge on Draco long before King's Cross.  I couldn't even tell you when he
stopped wanting revenge on Draco--it could have been when he started
feeling for Draco (at Dumbledore's funeral), or it could have been after he
almost killed Draco in the bathroom.


Pippin:
> Dumbledore was unable to hold Grindelwald to account for his crimes because he believed he would then have to account for his own. It was only when DD realized his task was not to punish Grindelwald but to keep him from doing more harm that he was able to act. 
> 

Montavilla47:
I don't know about this realization, Pippin.  There's no real text evidence 
for it--nice as it would be if that had happened.  According to the 
dead and possibly imaginary Dumbledore, he didn't have any realization
about why he ought to duel Grindelwald--he was simply ashamed of 
procrastinating about it.


Pippin:
> I know this post is getting long, but I'd like to add something about the role of Snape and the surviving Marauders. It seems to me that each of them is stuck at one of the stages of grief and is able, through interaction with Harry, to move on to the next stage before his death. 
> 
> Wormtail is in denial. "I never meant for it to happen." He moves on to bargaining. "You owe me" Harry tells him. 
> 
> Snape is caught in bargaining, so his move to anger is actually positive, though Harry, caught in the crossfire, probably  would not think so. 

Montavilla47:
I like this idea--but I'm not sure how Snape is caught in bargaining.
Can you clarify that?

Pippin:
> Sirius is trapped by his anger. "I want to commit the crime I was imprisoned for" (My quotes are from memory here, so please forgive me if they're not exact.) In one of the saddest parts of the books, Sirius moves away from his anger only to find himself in the stage of despair at Grimmauld Place, and  does not get the chance to move beyond it. 
> 
> But that is why it takes courage to move through grief and recover from hatred. The path away from hate is a bitter one in canon,  rewarding in the end, but  there is no guarantee that one will survive long enough to reach it. Remorse, Hermione warns us, can destroy as well as heal. 
> 
>  It is only Lupin, who begins in despair and self-loathing, who is able to come to full acceptance of James and Lily's death. After recapitulating denial, bargaining, anger and despair in his little talk with Harry at  Grimmauld Place, he finally ceases to mourn the Potters, and when he gives his life, it is for the sake of his own son's future, not because he owes it to James. 
> 

Montavilla47:
I kept the rest of this because it's very interesting and I do
think you are on to something!




From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Dec 10 01:05:33 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 20:05:33 -0500
Subject: Snape Timeline....
In-Reply-To: <hfom05+41kg@eGroups.com>
References: <hfom05+41kg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4B20495D.20705@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188595

Bart:
    There's been talk about Snape and his role in the VW I (Voldemort 
War I). Here's what I gathered: From the Prophecy, it is not clear 
exactly when it was made. The way I see it "The one with the power to 
vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... Born as the seventh month dies... " 
seems to imply that Harry was either just about to be born or had been 
recently born when it was made. Certainly, if Snape did not know of 
Harry's existence, that would explain why he didn't realize that Morty 
would go after Harry. Other evidence, including testimony that Snape 
spent some time as a spy for OOP Mark 1, implies that there was some 
time between Snape defecting and the Potter murders.

    I would like to posit that Snape spent from 6 months to a year as a 
spy for OOP Mark 1 before Voldemort fell.

    Secondarily, there has been an assumption that nobody knows about 
Snape's heroism in VW II. Can anybody give me a reason why Harry 
wouldn't have revealed that Snape was a hero? He didn't have the give 
the motive, even if he wanted to preserve Snape's privacy (he made no 
promise to do so).

    Bart




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 10 01:05:37 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 01:05:37 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <03A56563746543B092ED86E4A8D54AED@excessivelypPC>
Message-ID: <hfphh1+97kj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188596



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jean Lamb" <tlambs1138 at ...> wrote:
>
> Let's see--Snape spent two wars risking his life for the Order, was treated
> like crap all his life, died for people who couldn't be bothered to take a
> pulse and/or close his eyes, gets to be hated by the WW forever, and he
> doesn't get a cookie because he yelled at Harry (never mind he was forced
> into being there at Hogwarts in the first place) I grew up knowing the
> difference between being hit and being yelled at, folks, and they are not
> the same. It's clear that Harry can't seem to distinguish between the
> Dursleys, Snape, Voldemort and the other DEs, which I find rather odd. 
>  
> It would have served the Order right if he'd snapped his wand out of
> Hogwarts and left for the Muggle (and then find a magical community
> somewhere else and get a new wand). I'm sure there would be lots of people
> volunteering for his role, right? 
>  
> Oh, sorry, Regulus Black died nearly alone, too, fighting Voldemort (at
> least he had a house elf to mourn him). 
>  
> Frankly, I have to wonder why Snape _left_ Voldemort given how he was
> treated by those he died for. 
>  
> But of course he gets no credit for it _here_. 
>  
> Toodles. Have a nice we-all-hate-Snape group. 
>  
> Without me. 
>  
> 
> Jean Lamb
> 
> Do UPS workers learn Parceltongue?
> 
> tlambs1138 at ...
> 
> excessiveperky at LJ


Montavilla47:
Don't worry.  There's plenty of Snape supporters here.  I 
think we just know not to tussle with Alla on the subject.
She's pretty adamant about her opinion on Snape and I'm 
certain that she's not going to change it any time soon.

But the good news is that I can usually find common 
ground with her on Dumbledore.







From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 10 02:22:12 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 02:22:12 -0000
Subject: Snape Timeline....
In-Reply-To: <4B20495D.20705@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hfpm0k+44ic@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188597

> Bart:
>     Secondarily, there has been an assumption that nobody knows about 
> Snape's heroism in VW II. Can anybody give me a reason why Harry 
> wouldn't have revealed that Snape was a hero? He didn't have the give 
> the motive, even if he wanted to preserve Snape's privacy (he made no 
> promise to do so).

Zara:
I am mystified as to where such an opinion is coming from. Harry declared both the heroism and the motive for it in front of a Who's Who in the Wizarding World, in the final chapter of DH.

Regarding your estimate of how long Snape was a spy in the first war, I lean towards a year rather than 6 months. The war ended on October 31 with the failure of Voldemort's attempt to kill Harry. Six months prior would be the end of April, not particularly a time of year we would expect the scenery we get in Snape's first meeting with Dumbledore. ("...forlorn and cold in the darkness, the wind whistling through the branches of a few leafless trees.")





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 10 21:10:06 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:10:06 -0000
Subject: Snape Timeline....
In-Reply-To: <4B20495D.20705@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hfro3e+6n5j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188598

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:

> From the Prophecy, it is not clear exactly when it was made. 
> The way I see it "The one with the power to vanquish the 
> Dark Lord approaches... Born as the seventh month dies... " 
> seems to imply that Harry was either just about to be born 
> or had been recently born when it was made.


zanooda:

Harry couldn't have been "recently born" at the time of the prophecy because the prophecy ends like this: "...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...". So it was definitely before Harry was born :-). 



> Bart wrote:

> Other evidence, including testimony that Snape 
> spent some time as a spy for OOP Mark 1, implies that 
> was some time between Snape defecting and the Potter murders.
> I would like to posit that Snape spent from 6 months to a year 
> as a spy for OOP Mark 1 before Voldemort fell.


zanooda:

I agree with Zara on this and vote for almost a year or even more than a year :-). The hilltop meeting must have happened soon after Harry was born, right? August, September, or October at the latest? JMO, of course, no canon to support it, not really :-).


> Bart:
 
> Secondarily, there has been an assumption that nobody knows about 
> Snape's heroism in VW II. Can anybody give me a reason why Harry 
> wouldn't have revealed that Snape was a hero? 


zanooda:

I have no idea where this came from :-). My guess is some people think the epilogue shows that little Al doesn't know who he is named after, but I personally don't read it like this at all. I think Harry just reminds Al about his namesake, not *informs* him for the first time after whom he is named. And we also have JKR's interviews, where she says that Harry made sure that everybody knew about Snape's heroism and insisted that Snape's portrait was put at Hogwarts etc. Well, I don't consider her interviews canon, but for some readers this might mean something... :-).





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 10 21:28:52 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:28:52 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfom05+41kg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfrp6k+4ikj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188599

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> This group has a lot of Snape's fans for whom Snape gets a 
> credit for everything.


LOL! But I agree, I was also under impression that there were more Snape-lovers than Snape-haters in this group. Plus, there are "in-between" people too :-). For instance, I love Snape, but I agree with Alla that his attitude toward Harry is inexcusable. But again, I wouldn't go as far as to call his behavior "abuse" :-). There are different degrees of hate and different degrees of love, I guess. But this list is definitely not reserved exclusively for Snape-haters :-).


zanooda, who just realized that she is replying more to Jean than to Alla...




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 10 23:05:55 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:05:55 -0000
Subject: Snape Timeline....
In-Reply-To: <4B20495D.20705@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hfrusj+di5u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188600



--- In... Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> Bart:
> There's been talk about Snape and his role in the VW I
> (Voldemort War I). Here's what I gathered: From the Prophecy,
> it is not clear exactly when it was made. ...seems to imply 
> that Harry was either just about to be born or had been 
> recently born when it was made. Certainly, if Snape did not 
> know of Harry's existence, that would explain why he didn't 
> realize that Morty would go after Harry. 
> 
> I would like to posit that Snape spent from 6 months to a year as a 
> spy for OOP Mark 1 before Voldemort fell.
> 
>     ...
> 
>     Bart
>


bboyminn:

It seems the Prophecy is predicting the future, not the past.
'The one' is about to be born.

Harry is 1 year and 3 months old when his parents are killed.

Snape realized Voldemort was after Harry and family just
before or just after Harry was born.

The thing we don't know is the month in which Dumbledore
talked to Trelawney. Likely it was certainly before the
beginning of the next school year. But, we don't know that
if was before the end of the existing school year. So, it
seems there is a window of time in which the meeting could
have taken place; somewhere between March and September.
Though between March and the end of July makes more sense.

Now from that date, we have a span of time until Harry is
born. Then we have a full year until Harry's first birthday,
then we have an additional 3 months (Aug, Sept, Oct) until
Harry's parents die (Oct 31). 

So, I suspect Snape had joined Dumbledore at LEAST a full
year before the death of the Potters; depending on when we
think the meeting with Trelawney occurred. 

We have only the span of time between when Snape relayed
the Prophesy to Voldemort, and when Voldemort analysed the
situation and decided it was Harry or Neville, and that 
Harry represented the greater threat. I really don't see
that taking more than a few weeks. 

I suspect, Voldemort merely enquired who was pregnant, then
waited to see who had a boy, and then judged those who had
boy babies, to determine which was the greater threat.

Now that assume, that Voldemort assumed it was a boy baby who
was going to be the threat. To, the extent that we know 
though, only two babies were born at the end of July; Neville
and Harry. 

Again, I don't see Voldemort taking a lot of time. Very 
quickly after the end of July, I see Voldemort making his 
choice. And that means Snape was almost immediately in 
Dumbledore's camp as soon as Harry was born. So, again,
easily a full year.

Steve/bboyminn






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Dec 11 04:03:43 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 04:03:43 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfn2tu+b91l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfsgav+nr7h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188601

Alla: 
> You know, Snape did a lot of things which are in canon and my hate of this character is based on his actions, not on just hating his character. In fact as I said many times at times I found it incredibly frustrating since Snape's character type is usually the one I go for in the book if I see it.

Potioncat:
I think one thing JKR did very well was to give a twist to our expectations or to conventions. I had no thought to Snape at all until I found out mid-SS/PS that he "wasn't" the bad guy. Even then as I read along I kept wondering how he couldn't be. At the end of PoA it seemed a happy ending. Sirius was free, Harry had a loving god parent who could look out for him. Only, that's not how it played out. James and Lily were wonderful individuals, people to look up to--only they weren't.




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 11 04:16:11 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 04:16:11 -0000
Subject: Snape Timeline....
In-Reply-To: <hfrusj+di5u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfsh2b+e5iv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188602

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:


> The thing we don't know is the month in which Dumbledore
> talked to Trelawney. Likely it was certainly before the
> beginning of the next school year. But, we don't know that
> if was before the end of the existing school year. So, it
> seems there is a window of time in which the meeting could
> have taken place; somewhere between March and September.
> Though between March and the end of July makes more sense.


zanooda:

I still say (checked it in the Lexicon this time :-)) that Trelawney was hired in the middle of the school year, otherwise she wouldn't have said at the beginning of the 1995 school year that she's been working at Hogwarts for "nearly sixteen years". If she started working at the beginning of the year, she would have said simply "sixteen years". 

The interview must have taken place at the end of 1979 or at the very beginning of 1980, IMO. The Lexicon seems to think it's the beginning of 1980, because DD said at the end of OotP (1996) that it happened sixteen years ago. To reconcile those two statements (Trelawney's and DD's) I would say they met no later than February-March 1996.





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Dec 11 04:43:29 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 04:43:29 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 15, The Forbidden Forest
Message-ID: <hfsilh+6s79@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188603

This message is a Special Notice for all members of

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also being delivered offlist (to email inboxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions, contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra space).

CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/ Philosopher's Stone, Chapter Fifteen, The Forbidden Forest

Harry and Hermione have to face an irate McGonagall and a surprised Neville. McGonagall thinks the episode was intended as a trick on Draco and that Neville was caught up in it as well. The three Gryffindors lose 50 points each. Things become worse as fellow Gryffindors see the change in house status and even Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs are angry at the upset. It seems everyone wanted the 7-year reign of Slytherin to end.

Quirrell is looking worse and Harry thinks he overhears a conversation between Quirrell and Snape. Although the Trio are concerned about the Stone's safety, Harry insists they should leave things alone.

McGonagall sends a note to the students to meet Filch at 11 PM. Draco is particularly upset at having to go into the Forbidden Forest. They will be helping Hagrid investigate a unicorn's death. 

Harry and Draco witness a hooded figure drinking unicorn blood. Draco screams and runs away. The figure looks up at Harry, then comes toward him. Harry cannot move for fear and experiences a piercing pain in his head. At that moment a centaur appears and chases the figure away. 

Firenze encourages Harry to ride on his back, so that they can return to Hagrid, because the forest is not safe for Harry Potter. He asks Harry a question that allows Harry to understand the creature is Voldemort. The other centaurs are upset that Firenze became involved.

Back in the common room the Trio discuss the events, and determine that Harry is safe while Dumbledore is there. Ron continues to insist that they should not say "Voldemort." When he goes to bed, Harry finds his Invisibility Cloak and a note that says, "Just in case."

Questions:

1) McGonagall is very angry. Is her anger justified? Do you think she recalls a similar situation between James and Severus?

2) How much time passes after Harry and Hermione are caught before the detention in the forest is served? Why the delay?

3) What do you think of Hagrid's attitude about the punishment?

4) What do you think of this punishment? How does it compare to the punishment Headmaster Snape will give in DH?

5) Who is the cloaked figure drinking unicorn blood? Is it Quirrell!Mort or only Voldemort?

6) Firenze seems to know who the cloaked figure is. Do you think Dumbledore knows that Voldemort is in the forest? Does Dumbledore know Voldemort is in the castle?

7) Gryffindor House was very angry with Harry, Hermione and Neville for losing so many points. Just a bit of speculation in your opinion--what was Slytherin House's response to Draco's losing 50 points?

8) Why did Dumbledore return the Invisibility Cloak to Harry? Did the events in the forest play a part?

9) What questions do you have?

--Potioncat

NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH Chapter Discussions" at

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Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 16, Through the Trapdoor, on December 17, 2009.

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From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Dec 11 22:27:58 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 22:27:58 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 15, The Forbidden Forest
In-Reply-To: <hfsilh+6s79@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfuh1e+864c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188605

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> This message is a Special Notice for all members of
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups
 
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/ Philosopher's Stone, Chapter Fifteen, The Forbidden Forest

> 5) Who is the cloaked figure drinking unicorn blood? Is it Quirrell!Mort or only Voldemort?

Geoff:
I'm just going to answer this one for the moment.

It has to be Quirrell. When Harry meets Voldemort later in the 
back of Quirrell's head, Voldemort says:

'"See what I have become?" the face said. "Mere shadow and vapour.. 
I have form only when I can share another's body... but there have 
always been those willing to let me into their hearts and minds... 
Unicorn blood has strengthened me, these past weeks... you saw 
faithful Quirrell drinking it for me in the Forest... and once I have 
the Elixir of Life. I will be able to create a body of my own..."'

(PS "The Man with Two Faces" p.211 UK edition)

This leaves no room for any other conclusion that the figure was 
Voldemort-possessed Quirrell.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Dec 12 03:29:36 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 03:29:36 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 15, The Forbidden Forest
In-Reply-To: <hfuh1e+864c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfv2n0+v8c2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188606


Geoff:
> 
> This leaves no room for any other conclusion that the figure was 
> Voldemort-possessed Quirrell.
>


Potioncat:
Which is what I thought it must be, except--why doesn't Harry recognise him? If it's too dark, how does he see the blood dripping off the figure's face.




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 12 07:38:43 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 07:38:43 -0000
Subject: Snape Timeline....
In-Reply-To: <hfsh2b+e5iv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfvha3+nr11@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188607



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> 
> 
> > The thing we don't know is the month in which Dumbledore
> > talked to Trelawney. Likely it was certainly before the
> > beginning of the next school year. ...
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> I still say (checked it in the Lexicon this time :-)) that Trelawney was hired in the middle of the school year,...
> 
> The interview must have taken place at the end of 1979 or at the very beginning of 1980, IMO. The Lexicon seems to think it's the beginning of 1980, ...I would say they met no later than February-March 1996.
>

bboyminn:

Well, that's the thing, and I even considered that. We can
reasonably assume it was before Harry's birthday, but how
much before? 

Most assume it was early in the same summer of Harry's birth
year. But it could have been anytime during the previous
school year. Likely at the beginning of that previous school
year, the existing Divinations teach told Dumbledore he/she
would quit at the end of the current school year. So,
Dumbledore had some advance notice and plenty of time to 
advertise for a new teacher. 

But I do think it was after the school year started that 
Dumbledore met with Trelawney. 

Now, I'm personally inclined to think the meeting was in
the same calender year as Harry's birth. But exactly when
is very unclear. I suspect somewhere around March through
June. But I really don't think we have enough clues to 
determine. But we need to give Voldemort some time to 
work out who the Prophecy refers to, and while I don't see
that as a lot of time, it is certainly some time.

I suspect that the meeting between Snape and Dumbledore in
which Snape asks Dumbledore to protect Lily, judging from
the weather, was probably late fall. So, late October to 
early November. Then roughly a year later, James and Lily
are killed. 

I'm not sure how much weight we can give to the 'sixteen
years'/'nearly sixteen years' statements. People in fiction, 
and real life, do not always speak with absolute precision.
In context, they are both saying 'roughly sixteen years'. We
also know math and numbers are not JKR's strong suit. I think
even in her own mind, it was never more that Trelawney being
there /roughly sixteen years/.

Just a few random thoughts.

Steve/bboyminn





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Dec 12 07:41:46 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 07:41:46 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 15, The Forbidden Forest
In-Reply-To: <hfv2n0+v8c2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hfvhfq+ns6t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188608

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
 
Geoff:
> > 
> > This leaves no room for any other conclusion that the figure was 
> > Voldemort-possessed Quirrell.
 
Potioncat:
> Which is what I thought it must be, except--why doesn't Harry recognise him? If it's too dark, how does he see the blood dripping off the figure's face.

Geoff:
Two more bits of canon might help...

'Then, out of the shadows, a hooded figure came crawling across the 
ground like some stalking beast. Harry, Malfoy and Fang stood 
transfixed. The cloaked figure reached the unicorn, it lowered its head 
over the wound in the animal's side and began to drink its blood.'
(PS "The Forbidden Forest" p.187 UK edition)

So, we can't see the person clearly because of what they're wearing.
Our mystery person is a "hoody".
:-)

...and...

'"Look there," said Hagrid, "see that stuff shinin' on the ground?
Silvery stuff? That's unicorn blood..."

...They walked in silence, their eyes on the ground. Every now and 
then a ray of moonlight through the branches above lit a spot of 
silver blue blood on the fallen leaves.'
(ibid. p.183)

The blood seems to catch the light more than human blood. When 
"the hooded figure raised its head and looked right at Harry - 
unicorn blood was dribbling down its front" (p.187), I presume that
its face was still in the shadow of the hood but the blood was catching 
the moonlight again.




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Sun Dec 13 04:13:59 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 21:13:59 -0700
Subject: Age
Message-ID: <0E9D7ED8F87740A0B060F08DF035C24D@Marianne>

No: HPFGUIDX 188609

This is the first time that I've learned about the Snape timeline.  I'm asking about age.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that Snape was a young DE turned Spy for Dumbledore.  How do you suppose Snape would be treated/accepted by older DE at such a young age.  But he was a Slytheryn, so that probably was a given fact that he'd join the DE.  Because Snape is young would LV have welcomed him with open arms.  Is there any evidence that DE were recruited from other houses?  There must be some bad apples in other houses.

When was the Order formed?  Was there mixture of ages in the Order?  Were some of the OOP people were very young.  Am I correct in thinking that Lupin and Sirus, and possibility even Peter, was in the Order until things went to Hell?  Or was the Order formed after Sirius landed in Azkaban and Peter spent a lot of years as a rat.  What about the Potters.  They were very young to be murdered.  But there are a lot of people too young to die, even in the MW.

Last question.  Did houses always marry within their house?  Or did they look beyond what house they were sorted into.

Marianne

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Sun Dec 13 04:58:14 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 04:58:14 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfsgav+nr7h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hg1s96+vesk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188610



> Potioncat:
> I think one thing JKR did very well was to give a twist to our expectations or to conventions. I had no thought to Snape at all until I found out mid-SS/PS that he "wasn't" the bad guy. Even then as I read along I kept wondering how he couldn't be. At the end of PoA it seemed a happy ending. Sirius was free, Harry had a loving god parent who could look out for him. Only, that's not how it played out. James and Lily were wonderful individuals, people to look up to--only they weren't.


Marianne:
There are people that in public make themselves out to be a kind, caring, wonderful person.  That might be all well and good to outsiders, but in private life that person is a bastard.  They're totally not a bastard, but they certainly don't deserve to be made out to be saints.

Don't flame me. I'm not calling James a bastard. That's pushing the envelope way too far.  But there are some not-so-nice things that the public don't know.  When Harry enters the WW his father was made to be the wonderful, talented wizard until Harry discovers otherwise.  The public didn't know how he'd tormented Snape just because he could.





From bart at moosewise.com  Sun Dec 13 05:32:14 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 00:32:14 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Age
In-Reply-To: <0E9D7ED8F87740A0B060F08DF035C24D@Marianne>
References: <0E9D7ED8F87740A0B060F08DF035C24D@Marianne>
Message-ID: <4B247C5E.4000005@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188611

wildirishrose wrote:
> Is there any evidence that DE were recruited from other houses?  There must be some bad apples in other houses.
>   

Bart:
Peter Pettigrew.

    Bart



From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 13 05:04:43 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 05:04:43 -0000
Subject: Age
In-Reply-To: <0E9D7ED8F87740A0B060F08DF035C24D@Marianne>
Message-ID: <hg1slb+vvij@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188612

> Marianne:
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that Snape was a young DE turned Spy for Dumbledore.   

Zara:
Snape was the same age as Lily. So when the first war ended, he was 21. Perhaps 20 when he became a spy, probably 19 when he reported the Prophecy. (The Potters' tombstone gives their birth and death dates, in DH).

> Marianne:
> Is there any evidence that DE were recruited from other houses?  There must be some bad apples in other houses.

Zara:
There are many Death Eaters whose House is not known to us. However, every one we do know about except Peter Pettigrew (Gryffindor) was a Slytherin.

Personally, I think Barty Crouch Jr. was a Ravenclaw like his Dad (both speculation on my part!)

> Marianne:
> When was the Order formed?  Was there mixture of ages in the Order?  Were some of the OOP people were very young.  Am I correct in thinking that Lupin and Sirus, and possibility even Peter, was in the Order until things went to Hell?  

Zara:
Yes, the Marauders were all in the Order. So were Molly's brothers, the Prewetts, who were probably not too much older. As were some considerably older people like Aberforth Dumbledore, Alastor Moody, Arabella Figg, and others.

> Marianne:
> Last question.  Did houses always marry within their house?  Or did they look beyond what house they were sorted into.

Zara:
If we accept Rowling's statements in interviews, Tonks was a Hufflepuff, so her marriage with Lupin was a cross-House one. Most (book) canon marriages are within the same House, most prominently Lily and James (both Gryffindor), Arthur and Molly (both Gryffindor) and the Malfoys (both Slytherin). The one probable exception is the marriage of Andromeda Black (Slytherin) with Ted Tonks (unknown, but as he is Muggleborn, Slytherin seems very unlikely). We do see dating across houses - Harry dated Cho (Ravenclaw), Ron took Padma to the Yule Ball (again, Ravenclaw) and Ginny dated Michael Corner (Ravenclaw). 




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Dec 13 18:00:11 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 13 Dec 2009 18:00:11 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/13/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1260727211.13.74710.m2@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188613

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From a1.mills at portset.net  Sun Dec 13 11:19:26 2009
From: a1.mills at portset.net (Andrew)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 11:19:26 +0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Age
Message-ID: <200912130811.nBD8BrnA000780@post.portset.net>

No: HPFGUIDX 188614

Is there any evidence that DE were recruited from other houses?  There must be some bad apples in other houses.

The only non-Slytherin DE we really know about is Pettigrew, but that's not to say there aren't others.  From the evidence though it appears that most of the death eaters were Slytherins.
When was the Order formed?  Was there mixture of ages in the Order?  Were some of the OOP people were very young.  Am I correct in thinking that Lupin and Sirus, and possibility even Peter, was in the Order until things went to Hell?  Or was the Order formed after Sirius landed in Azkaban and Peter spent a lot of years as a rat.  What about the Potters?  They were very young to be murdered.  But there are a lot of people too young to die, even in the MW.

I don't know exactly when the original Order would have been formed but guess it was during the first war.  Yes, I'm pretty sure there were a range of ages in the Order.  When Moody showed Harry the picture of the original Order members in book 5, it showed Lupin, Sirius, James and Lily and I think also Pettigrew, as being Order members.  Obviously this would have been before Sirius went to Azkaban.  I think anyone who was of wizarding age and had proved themself would be allowed to join the Order.
Last question.  Did houses always marry within their house?  Or did they look beyond what house they were sorted into.

I think there were most likely marriages outside houses.  There were definitely relationships outside houses (Percy and Penelope, Harry and Cho).  However I think the fact that it would be so much easier to socialise with someone within your own house meant that in general more marriages took place between people who had been in the same house during their school days.  I don't think, though, that every wizard would marry someone within their own house, it's just that on average there appear to be more in-house marriages.

AJM



From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Dec 13 18:52:34 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:52:34 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 15, The Forbidden Forest
In-Reply-To: <hfsilh+6s79@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hg3d5j+ki9t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188615

Potioncat discussed PS/SS Chapter 15 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188603>:

<< Harry and Draco witness a hooded figure drinking unicorn blood. Draco screams and runs away. The figure looks up at Harry, then comes toward him. Harry cannot move for fear >>

Some people have claimed that this shows that Harry is brave because he didn't run away, but I believe the text shows that it wasn't courage that prevented Harry from running away. 

I admit that Draco is cowardly in this chapter, but I think that running away should not be too strongly stigmatized, or we'll get people who refuse to evacuate from a house on fire because they're too proud to run away from danger.

<< 1) McGonagall is very angry. Is her anger justified? Do you think she recalls a similar situation between James and Severus? >>

She said: "Four students out of bed in one night! I've never heard of such a thing before!" Some of her statements in later volumes indicate that "I've never heard of such a thing before!" is just a phrase she uses, not a statement of fact, not even an exaggerated statement of fact for some that occurs only rarely. 

She said "especially these days, it's very dangerous." I don't think she knows that Voldemort is on the campus, so I don't think she has any particular reason to believe that it's more dangerous now than usual.

In general, I'm inclined to think that she gets this angry and says almost exactly the same things approximately once per school year, when Gryffindors are caught out after midnight. Later volumnes don't mention other Gryffindors being harassed for losing points for curfew violation, but they probably lost only 50, not 50 each, because they didn't protest it in front of a student from a different House.

<< 3) What do you think of Hagrid's attitude about the punishment? 4) What do you think of this punishment? How does it compare to the punishment Headmaster Snape will give in DH? >>

Hagrid of course knows this is his fault: the reason his young friends are being punished is because they helped him. (It occurs to me that this is an example of vicarious punishment, so Christian literary analysis would view it as a very dim echo of Christ's sacrifice for humankind, which would make it a faint foreshadowing of Harry's sacrifice that is a much louder echo of Christ's sacrifice, and thus add some value to it being Hagrid who carries Harry's dead body into the clearing, which in turn might provide some speck of value to Hagrid being called Keeper of the Keys.)

Hagrid certainly can't explain this situation to McGonagall to ask her to go easy on them; first, it would throw away what they had given him by their sacrifice (i.e. throw away his secrecy), and second, it would get them MORE not LESS punishment, because it would add breaking a wizarding law to their offenses.

So he intended to get them out of the detention part of their punishment and instead thank them with a treat, to save them from having to scrub bedpans without magic or whatever by instead taking them on a nice outing to the Forbidden Forest. But he hadn't expected to get Draco as well as the Gryffindors. It seems that Hagrid dislikes Draco as much as Draco despises him.

"I'm not going in that forest", [Malfoy] said, and Harry was pleased to hear the note of panic in his voice.

"Yeh are if yeh want ter stay at Hogwarts," said Hagrid fiercely. "Yeh've done wrong an' now yeh've got ter pay fer it."

"But this is servant stuff, it's not for students to do. I thought we'd be copying lines or something, if my father knew I was doing this, he'd --"

"-- tell yer that's how it is at Hogwarts," Hagrid growled. "Copyin' lines! What good's that ter anyone? Yeh'll do summat useful or yeh'll get out. If yeh think yer father'd rather you were expelled, then get back off ter the castle and pack."

For a long time I took that dialog as fact, and believed that at Hogwarts, all detentions were spent doing chores. When Umbridge assigned lines in Book 5, she was not Hogwarts and they were not normal lines. Then in Book 6 we had students assigned to do lines for detention all over the place! 





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Dec 14 03:07:29 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 03:07:29 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 15, The Forbidden Forest
In-Reply-To: <hg3d5j+ki9t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hg4a5h+9moa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188616


Catlady:
> << Harry and Draco witness a hooded figure drinking unicorn blood. Draco screams and runs away. The figure looks up at Harry, then comes toward him. Harry cannot move for fear >>
> 
> Some people have claimed that this shows that Harry is brave because he didn't run away, but I believe the text shows that it wasn't courage that prevented Harry from running away. 
> 
?? I admit that Draco is cowardly in this chapter, but I think that running away should not be too strongly stigmatized, or we'll get people who refuse to evacuate from a house on fire because they're too proud to run away from danger.

Potioncat:
I'm glad you brought that up. There are several events just in these few pages that reveal different types of courage. This chapter really is a study in courage, and the lack of it.

While Draco looks like a coward, and Harry looks very brave, JKR makes it clear that it is not courage keeping Harry at that spot. I'm not so sure it's cowardice that makes Draco run---anyone, particularly any 11-year-old ought to be running. Maybe someone like Hagrid or Dumbledore could stand their ground out of bravery, but not too many could.

Firenze chases the cloaked figure away, knowing who it is. That alone must take some courage; he is also rebelling against the customs of his people by interfering with events and by allowing Harry to ride on his back. He shows great moral courage that will continue for several years.

At the beginning of the chapter, when McGonagall appears, she has Neville in tow, saying he was trying to warn them about Draco. Harry is mindful of what that must have cost him. Neville has left the common room after hours to warn Harry. Leaving the common room after hours is something Harry does without a thought, but it is something that takes courage on Neville's part. It is the difference between a calculated effort and a rash act. (And the comfort of an Invisibility Cloak.

By the same token, keeping quite about the real reason for the nighttime outing was brave too. Granted, they couldn't have told the teachers, but they might have told the other Gryffindors. Fred and George would have been proud of them. As far as I can tell, they never even told Neville the truth. Which makes Neville a very good friend; over the years he never waivers in his support of Harry.


Potioncat would like to thank Zara for her help with this chapter discussion and for posting it for me.








From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Mon Dec 14 03:59:30 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 03:59:30 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hfphh1+97kj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hg4d72+pp5v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188617



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "montavilla47" <montavilla47 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
>>>> 
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Don't worry.  There's plenty of Snape supporters here.  I 
> think we just know not to tussle with Alla on the subject.
> She's pretty adamant about her opinion on Snape and I'm 
> certain that she's not going to change it any time soon.
> 
> But the good news is that I can usually find common 
> ground with her on Dumbledore.
>
Nikkalmati

Actually, I believe Alla has moderated her position slightly over time.  :>)

Nikkalmati

to Jean
(I doubt that UPS delivers to the WW, or that any packages are addressed in Parseltongue.  Is it even a written language? Am is missing the joke?) 




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 14 05:02:27 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (Happy Smiley)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 21:02:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 15, The Forbidden Forest
In-Reply-To: <hfsilh+6s79@eGroups.com>
References: <hfsilh+6s79@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <923120.52812.qm@web46204.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188618

1) McGonagall is very angry. Is her anger justified? Do you think she recalls a similar situation between James and Severus?

Joey:

In general, any type of rule-breaking by anybody makes her blood pressure soar, IMO. :-)

3) What do you think of Hagrid's attitude about the punishment?


Joey:

Quite unjustified given that the people involved are four 11-year olds. 

4) What do you think of this punishment? How does it compare to the punishment Headmaster Snape will give in DH?

Joey:

Forbidden Forest for wandering about in the night? Punishment seems to be worse than the crime! 

Punishment at Hogwarts is haphazard and subjective. Prof. Trelawney never gave Hermione any detention whatsoever. Prof. Flitwick gave Seamus lines when he messed up in a Charms class. Prof. McGonagall and Prof. Snape?are famous for giving detentions.?Prof. Binns, well, :-)

Headmaster Snape meant to protect the three children in a DE-ruled regime. That was thoughtful of him.

6) Firenze seems to know who the cloaked figure is. Do you think Dumbledore knows that Voldemort is in the forest? Does Dumbledore know Voldemort is in the castle?

Joey:

Seeing the way he reacted when he sees Hermione and Ron on his way to rescue Harry, his efforts to keep the PS / SS safe and given that Hagrid always kept DD posted, I think DD does have an idea that Voldemort is around. Not sure if he knew Voldemort is in the forest or castle - his efforts to watch and track Quirrel does not seem good enough to substantiate that view, IMO.

7) Gryffindor House was very angry with Harry, Hermione and Neville for losing so many points. Just a bit of speculation in your opinion--what was Slytherin House's response to Draco's losing 50 points?

Joey:

I think Slytherins wouldn't have treated Malfoy the same way - I think they would have kept Lucius Malfoy's influence in mind and kept quiet.

8) Why did Dumbledore return the Invisibility Cloak to Harry? Did the events in the forest play a part?

Joey:

Events in the forest played a part and anyway, DD did want Harry to keep it.


Thanks for the interesting questions, Potioncat!

?Cheers,
~Joey :-) 



      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 14 05:07:41 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 05:07:41 -0000
Subject: Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER
In-Reply-To: <hg4d72+pp5v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hg4h6t+s5b5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188619

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nikkalmati" <puduhepa98 at ...> wrote:

> I doubt that UPS delivers to the WW, or that any packages 
> are addressed in Parseltongue.  Is it even a written language? 
> Am is missing the joke?)


zanooda:

I thought the joke was that in Jean's signature the word Parseltongue was spelled as Parceltongue, like, you know, *parcel*-tongue :-).





From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 14 19:44:27 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (ZaraG)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:44:27 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 15, The Forbidden Forest
In-Reply-To: <hfsilh+6s79@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hg64ir+5spu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188620

Zara:L
Thank you, Potioncat, for an excellent summary and interesting questions!
 
> Questions:
> 1) McGonagall is very angry. Is her anger justified? Do you think she recalls a similar situation between James and Severus?

Zara:
Interetsing suggestion, about McG maybe being reminded of past events. It had never occured to me. But I don't think so. While there are similarities (Draco/Snape trying to catch Gryffindors with a dangerous creature, as she thinks because said Gryffindors set up the Slytherins), she would have to have knows that the original incident was far more dangerous. She appears to believe that the dragon story is a fiction, so Draco was in no greater danger than being in trouble. On the other hand, she has to have known that Lupin really was a werewolf.
 
> 2) How much time passes after Harry and Hermione are caught before the detention in the forest is served? Why the delay?


Zara:
16 days, saith the Lexicon. And I think I shall take their word for it. Why? Before the detention, we are treated to a dscription of Harry's discomfort over everyone's reaction to his loss of House Points. After, Harry's worries move on to Voldemort's presence. As the latter is considerably more serious, I think there would have been no way to work the former into the story without a gap between when McG took the points, and when the detention happend. 

> 3) What do you think of Hagrid's attitude about the punishment?

Zara:
I am not sure what it is. I think his comments on the subject tell us more of his opinion of Draco.

> 4) What do you think of this punishment? How does it compare to the punishment Headmaster Snape will give in DH?

Zara:
It's probably ridiculous, but hey, it makes a good story. <g> I doubt Hagrid found anything special and dangerous in the same scale for Neville et. al. in DH, and I doubt Snape expected him to.

> 6) Firenze seems to know who the cloaked figure is. Do you think Dumbledore knows that Voldemort is in the forest? Does Dumbledore know Voldemort is in the castle?

Zara:
This seems implied by Harry and Hermione;s conversatoin at the end of the book. 

> 7) Gryffindor House was very angry with Harry, Hermione and Neville for losing so many points. Just a bit of speculation in your opinion--what was Slytherin House's response to Draco's losing 50 points?

Zara:
The incident represented a net gain of 100 points for Slytherin House. If everyone believed McG's assessment (that Draco was entrapped by Harry and Co.) it at least would not make them angry as things worked out well. If Draco were able to position himself as having successfully gotten Harry and Co, caught while they were up to no godd, it might have made him mnore popular.





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 15 19:58:17 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 19:58:17 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 15, The Forbidden Forest
In-Reply-To: <hfsilh+6s79@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hg8pop+t8b3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188621



---  "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> ...
> 
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/ Philosopher's Stone, Chapter Fifteen, The Forbidden Forest
> 
> ...
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1) McGonagall is very angry. Is her anger justified? Do you think she recalls a similar situation between James and Severus?
> 

bboyminn:

Well, ZaraG suggested something I never thought of before, and
that was that she knew Lupin was a werewolf, and /that/ made
it even more dangerous for anyone to be wandering about late
at might. Though this is Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone, and
Lupin isn't into the picture yet. 

However, I always suspected that Dumbledore had warned her that
things could get dangerous now that Harry was at Hogwarts. We
know Dumbledore suspected something was going on, or he wouldn't
have convinced Flamel to move the Philosopher's Stone. Dumbledore
seems to know a lot of things that he doesn't confide in Harry
and therefore doesn't confide in the reader. But he clearly 
knew that dark times were upon them. Though the specific 
nature of the threat was probably not known.

So, I think McGonnagall's warning of being out in times like
this, is a reflection of either statements or worry from 
Dumbledore. And as we later see, McGonnagall is fully justified
in her concern about dangers in time like this.


> 2) How much time passes after Harry and Hermione are caught before the detention in the forest is served? Why the delay?
> 

bboyminn:

I don't think much time passed, though I really should go 
re-read that section. I would say a week or less. detentions
are rarely delayed beyond the week in which they occur. I suspect
the delay was nothing more than McGonnagall deciding on a
appropriate detention for them all. 


> 3) What do you think of Hagrid's attitude about the punishment?
> 

bboyminn:

Are you referring to Hagrid's attitude toward Draco - do it or
get out? 

I think Hagrid understands that this little venture into the
woods is not going to be a stroll in the park. And I think
Draco is justifiable scared. And I suspect Harry wasn't feeling
all the brave either, but he was resigned to his fate. Whereas,
besides being scared, Draco felt such menial tasks were beneath
him. 

Harry is used to hard work, whereas Draco is used to being
waited on hand and foot. So Harry, scared as he might have
been, was resigned to the hard task ahead.


> 4) What do you think of this punishment? How does it compare to the punishment Headmaster Snape will give in DH?
> 

bboyminn:

I never thought any punishments were consistent. Only, what,
5 points each for tackling a full grown mountain troll, and in
a sense, saving the school. Yet, minus 50 points each for being
out of bed.

Points awards and docking never seem that high. Usually 5 or
10 point here or there. But I think part of the minus 50 points
is that McGonnagall seemed to think Harry had done this as a
big joke. That he lured Draco out to get him into trouble, and
that innocent Neville had gotten caught up in it. I think it
is the 'joke' aspect that is making her furious. 

But, that doesn't explain why they were all out and about. If
McGonnagall's stated suspicions of Harry were true, then why
was Harry out? Why didn't Harry just stay in the Dorm and leave 
Draco to get into trouble? While not unfathomable, there are a
few details that beg further explanation. 

When you refer to Snape and DH, I assume you mean Ginny being
give detention with Hagrid again. I suspect Snape is trying
to punish the students sufficiently that the Garrows wouldn't 
suspect, yet to also shield them from the Garrow's Cruciatus
curse as punishment. 

So, it had to be a punishment that would keep them safe, but
at the same time seem bad in the eyes of the Garrows. 


> 5) Who is the cloaked figure drinking unicorn blood? Is it Quirrell!Mort or only Voldemort?
> 

bboyminn:

This has always confused me. We know it was Voldemort in /some/
form, but what form? Was it some apparition or semi-tangible
form of Voldemort on his own? Was it Quirrel drinking the blood
for Voldemort? Was it Quirrel bending over backwards and letting
Voldemort drink the blood himself? 

I think else where in this thread Geof quoted a later section of
the book that indicates it was Quirrel drinking the blood himself
and thereby transferring the effects of the blood to Voldemort
who was possessing him. 

Persumably, since Voldemort was in Quirrel, what strengthened 
Quirrel strengthened Voldemort. But I don't think that is 
consistent with the story. It doesn't seem as if Quirrel was 
being strenthened. More so, that grandually Quirrel was being
weakened by carrying Voldemort around. 

Perhaps, as a separate issue, Voldemort was somehow not only
taking strength from the Unicorn Blood, but also drawing
strength from Quirrel faster than Quirrel's body could replenish
it. 


> 6) Firenze seems to know who the cloaked figure is. Do you think Dumbledore knows that Voldemort is in the forest? Does Dumbledore know Voldemort is in the castle?
> 

bboyminn:

For what ever reasons Dumbledore has, which he never reveals,
I think Dumbledore is well aware that now that Harry has 
rejoined the wizard world, that Harry and by extension the
wizard world itself is in more danger than ever. Though I
don't think he quite knows how that danger will manifest itself.

It seems that he and Snape have concluded that it is Quirrel
that is trying to steal the stone, and that likely Quirrel is
doing it on Voldemort's behalf. But how and why Quirrel and
Voldemort are in contact, is not clear. And, yet there is 
still the nagging suspicion that Quirrel could be just a 
greedy bastard acting on his own. The truth of their assumptions
is only proven when Harry finally confront Quirrel and by 
extension Voldemort. 

As to Firenze, I think he knows more than he is telling. I also
think that they have been reading the signs both on the earth 
and in the sky. And, they have probably had conversations with
Dumbledore. So, I don't think it is that much of a stretch for
Firenze to reach the conclusion he has clearly reached. What
I wonder is, to what extent has he passed his thought and 
conclusions to Dumbledore? 


> 7) Gryffindor House was very angry with Harry, Hermione and Neville for losing so many points. Just a bit of speculation in your opinion--what was Slytherin House's response to Draco's losing 50 points?
> 

bboyminn:

I'm sure they weren't happy, but I also suspect the felt that
Draco was railroaded. That he had unfairly been caught up in 
one of Potter's schemes. But notice, that didn't put them that
far behind, they were still in the lead, and still in running
for the Quiditch and House Cups.

So, yes, a certain anger, but more at being duped than at 
actually losing the points which didn't hurt them that much.  


> 8) Why did Dumbledore return the Invisibility Cloak to Harry? Did the events in the forest play a part?
> 

bboyminn:

Never thought about it from that angle before. I suspect the 
adventure in the forest did play a part. But I also think it
was a combination of seeing that Harry was extraordinary, and
that he didn't shy away for adventure or danger, and consequently
was going to need all the help he could get.

But, I think Dumbledore also realized that the Cloak rightfully
belonged to Harry, and that he had no right to continue to hold
it. I'm mean knowing it was going to be an invaluable tool for
Harry didn't hurt, and I think he gave it anonymously because
he didn't feel it was right for the headmaster to so actively
aid in rule breaking. Plus, I don't think Dumbledore was
quite ready to have to explain to Harry why he had Harry's 
father's cloak. 


This has shed some interesting light on aspects of the story
I had never considered before.


Steve/bboyminn




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Dec 16 03:31:35 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 03:31:35 -0000
Subject: Most scary/disturbing quotes and scenes from the HP books
In-Reply-To: <961395.17725.qm@web46204.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <hg9kan+ehp8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188622



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Happy Smiley <happyjoeysmiley at ...> wrote:
>
> AJM wrote:
> >Just wondering, what does everyone think the most scary or disturbing quote and scene is from the whole HP series.
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
>       
>
Nikkalmati




From puduhepa98 at aol.com  Wed Dec 16 03:37:10 2009
From: puduhepa98 at aol.com (nikkalmati)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 03:37:10 -0000
Subject: Most scary/disturbing quotes and scenes from the HP books
In-Reply-To: <961395.17725.qm@web46204.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <hg9kl6+1is0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188623



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Happy Smiley <happyjoeysmiley at ...> wrote:
>
> AJM wrote:
> >Just wondering, what does everyone think the most scary or disturbing quote and scene is from the whole HP series.
> 
> 

 Nikkalmati


Sorry, I hit the wrong button.

I found the scene where Harry writes on his own hand with Umbridge's pen very disturbing.  It made me sick.  As far as scary goes, I found the attack of the dementors on Harry and his cousin and the attack of the Inferi on the island, when Harry could not beat them back, scary.  Also, when Harry and DD enter the cave and Harry cries Accio and a splash is heard from the lake. OOh.

Nikkalmati
 Nikkalmati




From sartoris22 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 16 04:21:20 2009
From: sartoris22 at yahoo.com (sartoris)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:21:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Most scary/disturbing quotes and scenes from the HP books
Message-ID: <516802.68383.qm@web32903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188624

?AJM wrote:
> >Just wondering, what does everyone think the most scary or disturbing quote and scene is from the whole HP series.

sartoris22:
?
The scene in the first chapter of HBP where the Death Eaters are sitting around the table in Malfoy Manor as Voldemort insults them--"Will you [Draco] babysit the cubs [Lupin and Tonks's children]?"--while a terrified Professor Charity Burbage revolves overhead is truly disturbing. Most of the Death Eaters are visibly frightened as Voldemort cruelly taunts them before?killing Professor Burbage with "Avada Kedavra." The scene and dialogue really capture how Voldemort rules through fear and intimidation and enjoys murdering people.

?
?
?
?
?
?


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Dec 16 13:22:07 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:22:07 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 15, The Forbidden Forest
In-Reply-To: <hfsilh+6s79@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hgamtv+2sgu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188625


Hmm, good answers to the questions--and, with all the posted answers in mind, I'll add my comments.

> Questions:
> 
1) McGonagall is very angry. Is her anger justified? Do you think she recalls a similar situation between James and Severus?

Potioncat:
The first time I read this chapter, I thought she was over reacting--then my own kids reached the sneaking-out-age and I understood McGonagall better, and as several others have pointed out, the castle really isn't a safe place.

But why is she so quick to think Harry was playing a trick on Draco? Has she seen any evidence of their animosity at this point? I don't recall that McGonagall ever comments to Harry about his parents, but she does say in PoA to others that James was the worst troublemaker she's ever seen. So is she doing the same thing that Severus and Sirius do--confusing Harry with James? By "similar situation" to James I intended the on-going rivalry between Marauders and Snape. This is the sort of thing James might have done. (IMO, based on canon events)

Not only that, but she has just taken Draco to Snape to complain about his being out of bounds and lying to her. Now she finds 3 Gryffindors out of bed, wandering around too. So Sev-erm-Draco wasn't lying and she will have to face Snape with that fact. (Because that's the right thing to do, and she would do the right thing.)

Gryffindors lose 50 points each, I think because she's embarrassed at their behavior. Draco only lost 20 for being out and arguing with her. Poor Neville was simply tarred with the same brush as his housemates. Look what loyalty and courage cost him!

The tunnel episode is very similar to the dragon event in a literary way--but posters are right, in this case McGonagall sees no danger to Draco.

> 
3) What do you think of Hagrid's attitude about the punishment?

Potioncat:
Well, the whole reason Hermione, Neville and Harry are there is because of Hagrid. Does he feel bad that he's caused them to suffer this detention--or does he think it's a great adventure for them? Yeah, he's stern with Draco, but that's different. I did think it was interesting that Hagrid calls him by his first name.


> 
4) What do you think of this punishment? How does it compare to the punishment Headmaster Snape will give in DH?

Potioncat:
Snape's Forbidden Forest punishment was one sure sign to me that he was on the good side. Those kids had been in the forest many times and he knew it. Phineas Nigellus seems to think it's a horrible punishment--unless he was just going along with Headmaster Snape. So, if it was horrible for 6th years, what must this have seemed like to ickle firsties?


> 
5) Who is the cloaked figure drinking unicorn blood? Is it Quirrell!Mort or only Voldemort?

Potioncat:
Thanks, Geoff, for the canon evidence. It was Quirrell. And now I get it--what Harry overhears is Quirrell protesting at having to kill another unicorn and drink the blood. Could it be that the blood is strengthening both LV and Quirrell--being possessed by LV is deadly. What it provides is a "half life" which would explain why Quirrell is looking so bad as the year progresses.

And that takes me back to this question:
>
2) How much time passes after Harry and Hermione are caught before the detention in the forest is served? Why the delay?

Potioncat:
I was wondering who really determined the detention and the timing--was it McGonagall or DD? Did DD suspect Quirrell was involved in the unicorn killing? Did he want Harry to see it? I just don't know if it was just a coincidence that the evening played out the way it did, or is there a reason for it from inside the story?


>
8) Why did Dumbledore return the Invisibility Cloak to Harry? Did the events in the forest play a part?

Potioncat:
I think he gave it back to Harry because it is the Deathly Hallow that protects. Yes, it allows Harry to carry out mischief, but it protects him from trouble. I don't know if he always intended to give it back; if he was waiting for the full punishment to be over; or if the events in the forest gave DD a feeling that Harry needed or deserved the IC.





From Will.Gustin at gmail.com  Sun Dec 13 22:33:54 2009
From: Will.Gustin at gmail.com (WILL GUSTIN)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 17:33:54 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Age
In-Reply-To: <0E9D7ED8F87740A0B060F08DF035C24D@Marianne>
References: <0E9D7ED8F87740A0B060F08DF035C24D@Marianne>
Message-ID: <44be3cc10912131433y46dc0376me7351e6b4ac9762c@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188626


> Marianne:
><snip> When was the Order formed? Was there mixture of
> ages in the Order? Were some of the OOP people were
> very young.  Am I correct in thinking that Lupin and
> Sirus, and possibility even Peter, was in the Order
> until things went to Hell? Or was the Order formed
> after Sirius landed in Azkaban and Peter spent a lot
> of years as a rat. <snip>


Just an answer to one part .... I'm pretty sure I saw in a
movie and assumed I remembered from the book.  There was a
picture of members of the Order, which included Neville's
parents as well as young versions of Lupin and Sirius, as
well as Harry's parents, so the Order had formed some time
before Harry's parents had been killed and Sirius sent to
Azkaban.

Roe







From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 16 21:50:01 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:50:01 -0000
Subject: Age and the Order
In-Reply-To: <44be3cc10912131433y46dc0376me7351e6b4ac9762c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hgbkm9+7pcr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188627



---  WILL GUSTIN <Will.Gustin at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Marianne:
> ><snip> When was the Order formed? Was there mixture of
> > ages in the Order? Were some of the OOP people were
> > very young.  Am I correct in thinking that Lupin and
> > Sirus, and possibility even Peter, was in the Order
> > until things went to Hell? Or was the Order formed
> > after Sirius landed in Azkaban and Peter spent a lot
> > of years as a rat. <snip>
> 
> WILL GUSTIN:
> 
> Just an answer to one part .... I'm pretty sure I saw in a
> movie and assumed I remembered from the book.  There was a
> picture of members of the Order, which included Neville's
> parents as well as young versions of Lupin and Sirius, as
> well as Harry's parents, so the Order had formed some time
> before Harry's parents had been killed and Sirius sent to
> Azkaban.
> 
> Roe
>

bboyminn:

Yes, but that tells us when the Order existed, but not
necessarily when it was formed. Maybe Dumbledore formed it
as a first step in fighting Grindelwald. Maybe he figured
if he formed a small underground army that could transcend
political borders, he could bring Grindelwald down without
having to meeet him face-to-face.

Or, after facing Grindelwald, Dumbledore and friends may
have formed this loosely knit organization to be ready in
case another Dark Wizard came along. Consequently, Dumbledore
was able to reform it very quickly when Voldemort appeared.  

I'm not saying that happened, only that the Order could have
been formed at any point in Dumbledore's lifetime, and for 
any reason. 

Maybe it started as a social club, that simply turned out
to be very valuable in wartime. 

We just don't know. But certainly it was in place at some
point during the first war with Voldemort and his supporters.
It was there, but we still don't know if that is when it was
formed.

Just a thought.

Steve/bboyminn






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Dec 16 23:20:05 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:20:05 -0000
Subject: Age
In-Reply-To: <44be3cc10912131433y46dc0376me7351e6b4ac9762c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <hgbpv5+vk86@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188628

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, WILL GUSTIN <Will.Gustin at ...> wrote:

Marianne:
> ><snip> When was the Order formed? Was there mixture of
> > ages in the Order? Were some of the OOP people were
> > very young.  Am I correct in thinking that Lupin and
> > Sirus, and possibility even Peter, was in the Order
> > until things went to Hell? Or was the Order formed
> > after Sirius landed in Azkaban and Peter spent a lot
> > of years as a rat. <snip>

Roe:
> Just an answer to one part .... I'm pretty sure I saw in a
> movie and assumed I remembered from the book.  There was a
> picture of members of the Order, which included Neville's
> parents as well as young versions of Lupin and Sirius, as
> well as Harry's parents, so the Order had formed some time
> before Harry's parents had been killed and Sirius sent to
> Azkaban.

Geoff:
Once more unto the book, dear friends, once more,,,,
(with apologies to William)

`Moody took a swig from his hipflask, his electric-blue eye 
staringsideways at Harry.

"Come here. I've got something that might interest you," he 
said. From an inner pocket of his robes, he pulled a very 
tattered old wizarding photograph.

"Original Order of the Phoenix," growled Moody. "found it 
last night when I was looking for my spare Invisibility Cloak, 
seeing as Podmore hasn't had the manners to return my best 
one
 thought people might like to see it."

Harry took the photograph. A small crowd of people. some 
waving at him, others lifting their glasses, looked back up at 
him.

"There's me," said Moody
   
"And there's Dumbledore 
beside me, Dedalus Diggle on the other side
 That's Frank and 
Alice Longbottom-"

Harry's stomach, already uncomfortable, clenched as he looked 
at Alice Longbottom; he knew her round, friendly face very well, 
even though he had never met her, because she was the image 
of her son, Neville.

"-poor devils," growled Moody. "Better dead than what happened 
to them
   
there's Lupin, obviously
    
Sturgis Podmore, 
blimey, he looks young
   
Hagrid, of course, looks exactly the 
same as ever
 Elphias Doge, you've met him
   
That's 
Dumbledore's brother Aberforth, only time I ever met him, strange 
bloke
   
Sirius, when he still had short hair,,, and
 there you 
go, thought that would interest you!"

Harry's heart turned over. His mother and father were beaming 
at him, sitting on either side of a small, watery-eyed man whom 
Harry recognised at once as Wormtail, the one who had betrayed 
his parents' whereabouts to Voldemort and so helped to bring 
about their deaths.'
(OOTP "The Woes of Mrs. Weasley" pp157-59 UK edition)

To shorten the quote, where there are double sets of full stops, 
I have omitted some of the names which are not vital to the story.

In the film version of OOTP, the photograph is shown to Harry by
Sirius while they  are in the waiting room at Kings Cross railway 
station.








From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Dec 16 23:36:12 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:36:12 -0000
Subject: Age and the Order
In-Reply-To: <hgbkm9+7pcr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hgbqtc+p52q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188629

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:

bboyminn:

> Yes, but that tells us when the Order existed, but not
> necessarily when it was formed. Maybe Dumbledore formed it
> as a first step in fighting Grindelwald. Maybe he figured
> if he formed a small underground army that could transcend
> political borders, he could bring Grindelwald down without
> having to meeet him face-to-face.
> 
> Or, after facing Grindelwald, Dumbledore and friends may
> have formed this loosely knit organization to be ready in
> case another Dark Wizard came along. Consequently, Dumbledore
> was able to reform it very quickly when Voldemort appeared.  
> 
> I'm not saying that happened, only that the Order could have
> been formed at any point in Dumbledore's lifetime, and for 
> any reason. 
> 
> Maybe it started as a social club, that simply turned out
> to be very valuable in wartime. 
> 
> We just don't know. But certainly it was in place at some
> point during the first war with Voldemort and his supporters.
> It was there, but we still don't know if that is when it was
> formed.

Geoff:
Canon implies that it was formed after Grindelwald and not 
as a social club:

'"What is this place, anyway?" he (Harry) shot at Ron and 
Hermione.

"Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix." said Ron at 
once.

 "Is anyone going to bother telling me what the Order of 
the Phoenix- ?"

"It's a secret society." said Hermione quickly. "Dumbledore's 
in charge, he founded it. It's the people who fought against 
You-Know-Who last time."

"Who's in it?" said Harry coming to a halt with his hands in 
his pockets.

"Quite a few people-"

"We've met about twenty of them ." said Ron, "but we think 
there are more."'
(OOTP "Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place" pp.64-65 UK 
edition)

I interpret this as saying that it was formed during Voldemort's 
first war.




From d2dmiles at yahoo.de  Wed Dec 16 23:51:20 2009
From: d2dmiles at yahoo.de (Miles)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 00:51:20 +0100
Subject: Age and the Order
References: <hgbqtc+p52q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <8EDBC2F61884463FA1F10A43409A785F@miles>

No: HPFGUIDX 188630

Geoff wrote:
> "It's a secret society." said Hermione quickly. "Dumbledore's
> in charge, he founded it. It's the people who fought against
> You-Know-Who last time."

snip

> I interpret this as saying that it was formed during Voldemort's
> first war.

Miles
This is a possible interpretation, but it's not clearly stated. That this 
group of people fought Voldemort in the first war does not necessarily mean 
that it was founded then or for this purpose. As bboyminn wrote, the society 
could have pre-existed, having a different purpose.
It's even possible that Dumbledore founded it in his earlier years in order 
to take control over the Ministry without becoming MoM himself - something 
Voldemort managed to do in the 2nd war ;).

Miles 




From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 17 18:37:32 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (bboyminn)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:37:32 -0000
Subject: Age and the Order
In-Reply-To: <hgbqtc+p52q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hgdtpc+96vu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188631



---  "Geoff" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "bboyminn" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> > Yes, but that tells us when the Order existed, but not
> > necessarily when it was formed. ...
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > ... the Order could have been formed at any point in 
> > Dumbledore's lifetime, and for any reason. 
> > 
> > ...
> 
> Geoff:
> Canon implies that it was formed after Grindelwald and not 
> as a social club:
> 
> '"What is this place, anyway?" he (Harry) shot at Ron and 
> Hermione.
> 
> ...
> 
> "It's a secret society." said Hermione quickly. "Dumbledore's 
> in charge, he founded it. It's the people who fought against 
> You-Know-Who last time."
> 
> ...
> 
> I interpret this as saying that it was formed during Voldemort's 
> first war.
>

bboyminn:

And it well might have been, but my point was - we don't know.

Your quote that "It's the people who fought against You-Know-Who
last time" is not mutually exclusive with my idea.

It could have been formed 50 years before as friends getting
together for afternoon tea, and it could have still been
comprised of 'people who fought against You-Know-Who'.

Now, also remember, I'm not saying it was a social club. What
I am saying is that we don't know, nor do we have the 
information necessary to know. 

I suspect your conclusion if pretty fair. Likely it was formed
for the purpose we now see when you claim it was formed; 
somewhere around Voldemort's first appearance as a threat to
the wizard world. But, again, that doesn't preclude it existing
in some other form before that. 

Again, I'm not saying it did, I'm just saying we can't rule out
the possibility with any certainty. 

In short, we can speculate, but we just can't know unless JKR
clears up the back-story on the Order. 

Steve/bboyminn




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Dec 17 21:01:46 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:01:46 -0000
Subject: Age and the Order
In-Reply-To: <hgdtpc+96vu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hge67q+iu17@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188632



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bboyminn" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> ---  "Geoff" <gbannister10@> wrote:
> >
> > ---  "bboyminn" <bboyminn@> wrote:

bboyminn:
> > 
> > > Yes, but that tells us when the Order existed, but not
> > > necessarily when it was formed. ... 
> > > ... the Order could have been formed at any point in 
> > > Dumbledore's lifetime, and for any reason. 
> > > 
> > > ...

Geoff:
> > Canon implies that it was formed after Grindelwald and not 
> > as a social club:

> > '"What is this place, anyway?" he (Harry) shot at Ron and 
> > Hermione.
> > ...
> > "It's a secret society." said Hermione quickly. "Dumbledore's 
> > in charge, he founded it. It's the people who fought against 
> > You-Know-Who last time."
> > ...
> > I interpret this as saying that it was formed during Voldemort's 
> > first war.
 
bboyminn:

> And it well might have been, but my point was - we don't know.
 
> Your quote that "It's the people who fought against You-Know-Who
> last time" is not mutually exclusive with my idea.

> It could have been formed 50 years before as friends getting
> together for afternoon tea, and it could have still been
> comprised of 'people who fought against You-Know-Who'.

<snip> 

Geoff:
I take your point but my argument would be threefold.

First, if the group had come together for genteel cucumber sandwiches 
and tea on the lawn, why would they have given it a formalised name
like "Order of the Phoenix"?

Second, Hermione's comment would not be accurate if only some of the 
strawberries and cream eaters had gone on to the OOTP.

Thirdly,  it seems that the original group were quite young at the time 
of Voldemort's first war - the Longbottoms, the Potters and people 
like Sirius spring immediately to mind. They wouldn't have been in a 
social group fifty years previously.

I agree that the history of the group is perhaps not fully given but the 
circumstantial and anecdotal evidence points very strongly towards its 
formation during the first war.




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Dec 17 21:33:15 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:33:15 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION: PS/SS 15, The Forbidden Forest
In-Reply-To: <hfsilh+6s79@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hge82r+rl6h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188633


> Questions:
> 
> 1) McGonagall is very angry. Is her anger justified? Do you think she recalls a similar situation between James and Severus?

Pippin (a bit late to the party):
I think the "four students out at night" bit is some of JKR's irony. McGonagall doesn't know about the Marauders' nocturnal activities. But she does know that the rivalry between James and Snape escalated to a near-fatal episode, and I think she wants to nip something like that in the bud if she can. 
> 
> 2) How much time passes after Harry and Hermione are caught before the detention in the forest is served? Why the delay?

Pippin:
It seems that if the teacher assigning the detention hasn't got a punishment in mind, the students get put on a list  that teachers with chores to do can chose from. Lockhart specifically asked for Harry in CoS. So my guess is Hagrid asked for Harry, Ron, Neville and Draco, and then took his time about thinking up something for them to do. 

> 
> 3) What do you think of Hagrid's attitude about the punishment?
Pippin:
HIs remark about doing wrong and now Draco will have to pay for it is more of JKR's irony. Hagrid isn't being made to pay for his part in the Norbert episode (although he may feel that losing Norbert is punishment enough.) 

> 
> 4) What do you think of this punishment? How does it compare to the punishment Headmaster Snape will give in DH?

Pippin:
I think Hagrid doesn't know that Voldemort is in the forest, while Dumbledore and Snape, who do seem to suspect that there's some connection between Quirrell's activities and the forest, have no idea that Hagrid plans to take Harry in there. I wouldn't put it past Dumbledore to use Harry as bait, but if he was bait, where's the trap? There wasn't any effort to expose Quirrell or try to capture him.

Hagrid knows there's something in the forest that doesn't belong there, but it's a bit slow dawning on him that anything that could harm a unicorn might not be intimidated by him or Fang. On the other hand, if he's been hunting it and it's been eluding him, he might think it was shy of humans and dogs. 

> 
> 5) Who is the cloaked figure drinking unicorn blood? Is it Quirrell!Mort or only Voldemort?

Pippin:
Voldemort says it's Quirrell. I think that possession weakens the body of the possessed creature with Nagini being an exception because of Voldemort's close emotional connection with her. If Quirrell hadn't been drinking unicorn blood, IMO, he'd have died much sooner. 

> 
> 6) Firenze seems to know who the cloaked figure is. Do you think Dumbledore knows that Voldemort is in the forest? Does Dumbledore know Voldemort is in the castle?

Pippin:
Snape asks Quirrell to meet him in the forest, which is why I think they're aware that he's up to something in there. I don't think they know that Quirrell is possessed. They might think that Voldemort has made a rudimentary body, as he does in GoF, and is using it to drink unicorn blood. He would need a body to drink the elixir if he managed to steal the stone.

 
> 7) Gryffindor House was very angry with Harry, Hermione and Neville for losing so many points. Just a bit of speculation in your opinion--what was Slytherin House's response to Draco's losing 50 points?

Pippin:
As long as Slytherin kept the lead, they'd probably think it was worth it. 


> 
> 8) Why did Dumbledore return the Invisibility Cloak to Harry? Did the events in the forest play a part?

Pippin:
I think Dumbledore balanced the danger of Harry having the cloak and being tempted into dangerous situations, against the danger of not having its protection. But he knows what happened at Godric's Hollow and wouldn't want that to happen again. He knows that if Voldemort dares to enter the school there is probably nothing that would keep him out.

> 
> 9) What questions do you have?

Pippin:
Why didn't Harry tell Hagrid that Voldemort was in the forest and killing the unicorns? How did Hagrid react when he realized Fang and Draco were missing?

Pippin




From carylcb at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 18 03:12:00 2009
From: carylcb at hotmail.com (Caryl Brown)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 03:12:00 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 16, Through the trapdoor
Message-ID: <hgeru0+3vfi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188634

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CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone
Chapter Sixteen, Through the Trapdoor



As the chapter begins, Harry has much more to worry about than the exams he
should be focusing on; he is distracted by recurring pain in his scar and
nightmares that make him half expect Voldemort to come bursting through the door
at any moment. Ron and Hermione's concern has faded since their trip into the
forest, but Harry can't get rid of the feeling that danger is coming and that
he'd forgotten something important. As the three friends relax by the lake after
their last exam, Harry finally realizes that his unsettled feeling has something
to do with how and from whom Hagrid acquired his dragon egg.





Once they arrive at Hagrid's hut, they're surprised when Hagrid casually brushes
off any concern about the identity and motives of the stranger who'd plied him
with drink and questioned him about other creatures he'd worked with. Harry
probes further and they learn that Hagrid, in a drunken moment, revealed to the
stranger that the secret for calming Fluffy was to play him a bit of music.
Horrified that he'd now told the trio that secret as well, Hagrid tries to stop
them when they rush out the door to find Dumbledore, certain that the stranger
was actually Snape.





Realizing that they don't know where Dumbledore's office is, they ask for
directions from Professor McGonagall. When she tells them the Headmaster has
been called to London, they explain their suspicions about the Sorcerer's Stone,
careful not to mention Snape's name. She dismisses their concerns, telling them
that the Stone is can't be stolen because it's too well protected and suggesting
that they go back outside to enjoy the sunshine. Once McGonagall is out of
earshot, Harry expresses his conviction that Snape had sent the letter to get
Dumbledore out of the way and is planning to go after the Stone that night.
Snape "happens" by at that moment and warns Harry against any future nighttime
wanderings. The trio concocts a plan to watch both Snape and the third-floor
corridor, but the plan falls through when McGonagall catches them and threatens
to take more points from Gryffindor.





Back in the common room, Harry decides that he is going to go after the Stone
himself. Hermione is horrified, warning Harry that he'll surely be expelled, but
relents after Harry passionately explains that expulsion is minor compared to
his impending death at Voldemort's hand if he does nothing. Harry is shocked
when Ron and Hermione include themselves in his plans as if it were a foregone
conclusion that they would go with him, and Hermione rushes off to do some
research in preparation. They wait nervously in the common room throughout the
evening, waiting for their housemates to go to bed, before Harry grabs his
Invisibility Cloak and the flute Hagrid gave him for Christmas from his trunk.
As they prepare to leave, Neville appears from behind a chair in the corner and
confronts them about doing something that will lose more House points. They try
to talk Neville out of trying to stop them, but when he continues to delay their
departure, Hermione casts a body-binding spell at him and they reluctantly leave
him lying frozen on the common room floor.





The trip to the third floor corridor makes them skittish, especially when they
meet Mrs. Norris and Peeves along the way, Finding the door to Fluffy's room
ajar underscores the danger of their mission and Harry encourages Ron and
Hermione to turn back. They tell him "Don't be stupid," and move into the room
to find a harp abandoned at the dog's feet. Harry plays the flute Hagrid gave
him and the dog goes back to sleep, while Ron and Hermione open the trapdoor.
Once they determine that climbing down into the hole isn't an option, Harry
passes the flute to Hermione and tells his friends to go after Dumbledore if
anything happens once he jumps into the darkness below.





Relieved to make a soft landing, Harry encourages the others to follow him, only
to find that he and Ron have become imprisoned by Devil's Snare, a plant that
would eventually squeeze them to death with its tendrils. Hermione manages to
get away before it captures her. As it continues to strangle the boys, she
struggles to remember from her Herbology studies how to kill it. When she
remembers that it likes the dark and damp, Harry desperately tells her to light
a fire and Ron has to remind her that she's a witch when she starts to panic
that she can't find any wood. Using her trademark "bluebell" flame, Hermione
frees the boys. Harry praises Hermione's recall of Herbology facts, but Ron
can't resist taking the mickey about her losing her head in a crisis.




They continue down a damp corridor that leads to a brightly lit chamber with a
soaring ceiling filled with "small, jewel-bright birds" and a heavy wooden door
at the opposite side of the room. Harry runs to the door, expecting the birds to
attack him, but nothing happens and the door won't open. He finally realizes
that the birds are actually keys, one of which probably fits the door, and that
they'll need to use the (conveniently) nearby broomsticks to catch the right
one. Using his Seeker skills, he spots the one with a crumpled wing and, with
Ron and Hermione helping to "herd" it toward him, eventually traps it against
the wall. The key works and flies off again as they go through the door.




As they step into the next room, the chamber lights up to reveal a massive chess
set. Realizing at once that they'll have to play their way across the room, Ron,
the resident chess expert, takes the lead and directs Harry and Hermione to
stand in for a bishop and rook, respectively. He takes over for a knight and
they quickly understand the danger they're in when the captured pieces are
violently removed from the board, just like in Ron's miniature wizard's chess
set. When they finally reach the point in the game that Ron decides the only way
to win is to sacrifice himself, Harry and Hermione object. Ron reminds them
what's at stake and determinedly tells them not to hang around to tend to him
once the game is over.




Harry and Hermione reluctantly leave Ron lying unconscious and hurry toward the
next chamber, calculating that they've already gotten through Hagrid's, Sprout's
Flitwick's and McGonagall's enchantments, leaving only Quirrell's, Snape's and
Dumbledore's ahead. Climbing over a knocked-out noxious-smelling troll (and
relieved that they didn't have to fight it), Harry and Hermione stumble into the
next room to find a harmless-looking table holding seven different-shaped
bottles and a roll of parchment. They quickly surmise that this is Snape's
protection, but Hermione is pleased that it turns out to be a logic problem
instead of magic?"A lot of the greatest wizards haven't got an ounce of logic,
they'd be stuck in here forever," she tells Harry. She makes quick work of the
puzzle, but the solution allows only one of them to move forward. They both know
that Harry must continue on, but their fear is palpable and Harry asks Hermione
to take care of Ron and find Dumbledore as quickly as possible because he knows
he's really no match for Snape or, worst-case-scenario, Voldemort. Their
farewell is emotional as they consider that they might not see each other again,
but Harry finally tells Hermione to drink her potion and watches her go back
through purple flame before downing his own drink and stepping forward through
the black flames. The person he finds on the other side of the final door is
completely unexpected.





Questions:



1. Why do you think it took from October to June for "Snape" to go after the
Stone?



2. Do you find it surprising/objectionable that JKR makes such casual
references to drinking alcohol and people getting drunk in a book written
primarily for children?



3. Do you think Snape's warning to Harry about nighttime wanderings came from
overhearing the trio's conversation with McGonagall and Harry's speculation
about Snape going after the Stone that night?



4. Knowing what we do now about Snape's efforts to protect Harry, why do you
think he acted in such a suspicious manner if he really wanted to keep Harry
from acting? Why not just tell him outright?



5. This is the first time we see Harry, Ron, and Hermione work as a team to
fight Voldemort. What skills do you attribute to each and why do you think they
work so well together?



6. The key was still flying around, the chess pieces were in the proper
position and enough potions were available to permit Harry to make his way
through to the end. Did you find it surprising that the first intruder hadn't
taken steps to keep from being followed?



7. Were you surprised that Snape's protection was more logic than pure
potions? Did you try or were you able to solve the puzzle before reading
Hermione's solution?



8. What other questions came to your mind as you read this chapter?

NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chapter 17, The Man with Two Faces, on December 23,
2009.

If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion,
please
contact drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space).


Caryl Brown





From ffred_clegg at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 18 21:56:56 2009
From: ffred_clegg at yahoo.co.uk (Ffred Clegg)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 21:56:56 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 10860
In-Reply-To: <1261134991.1911.37891.m5@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1261134991.1911.37891.m5@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <977464.727.qm@web24713.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188635

3. CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 16, Through the trapdoor
? ? Posted by: "Caryl Brown" carylcb at hotmail.com dumbledore11214
? ? Date: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:53 pm ((PST))

>Questions:
>
>2. Do you find it surprising/objectionable that JKR makes such casual
>references to drinking alcohol and people getting drunk in a book written
>primarily for children?

No, not at all. Alcohol use is part of the culture in the UK, everyone knows about its effects.

>4. Knowing what we do now about Snape's efforts to protect Harry, why do you
>think he acted in such a suspicious manner if he really wanted to keep Harry
>from acting? Why not just tell him outright?

Snape like many of us would have given advice in a manner that would work for him - perhaps can't even envisage a different (and opposite) response

>6. The key was still flying around, the chess pieces were in the proper
>position and enough potions were available to permit Harry to make his way
>through to the end. Did you find it surprising that the first intruder hadn't
>taken steps to keep from being followed?

I always thought that the magic in the various traps caused them to reset themselves. I wonder how long it would have taken the 3 if the key _hadn't_ had a crumpled wing though...

>7. Were you surprised that Snape's protection was more logic than pure
>potions? Did you try or were you able to solve the puzzle before reading
>Hermione's solution?

I did get the right answer as I read the problem for the first time, not sure if I went about the right way though!

cheers

Ffred


      




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 20 01:15:25 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 01:15:25 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 16, Through the trapdoor
In-Reply-To: <hgeru0+3vfi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hgjtrd+ahdb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188636



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Caryl Brown" <carylcb at ...> wrote:
>
><SNIP of the summary>

1.	Why do you think it took from October to June for "Snape" to go after the
Stone?

Alla:

See, I find it easier for myself not to try figuring out stuff like this, because usually I end up thinking ? gee this makes no sense and get irritated with the author lol. So my answer is JKR slowed him down to make sure the action in the book runs the whole year. 



2. Do you find it surprising/objectionable that JKR makes such casual
references to drinking alcohol and people getting drunk in a book written
primarily for children?

Alla:

Eh, no. I do not think that children will automatically copy in their behavior every objectionable thing they may read in fiction. 




3. Do you think Snape's warning to Harry about nighttime wanderings came from
overhearing the trio's conversation with McGonagall and Harry's speculation
about Snape going after the Stone that night?

Alla:

Could be, or maybe Snape just preferred Harry to do less wanderings period.



4. Knowing what we do now about Snape's efforts to protect Harry, why do you
think he acted in such a suspicious manner if he really wanted to keep Harry
from acting? Why not just tell him outright?


Alla:

Oh, this is to me a very good example of why I think Dumbledore picked such an idiot protector for Harry and also a very good example how little of child's behavior Snape really knows and can influence IMO.

I rarely if ever bring the discussion of fanfiction on this list, since it is not the list to discuss fanfiction, but I think what I am about to bring up is helpful to the discussion of this part of canon. So I will do it just once.

I read a funny DH story few months ago, which is partially AU and partially DH canon and where basically before DH Dumbledore, who is alive asks Snape to make sure Harry does not leave Dursleys for too long because it is dangerous for him, Voldemort can catch him, whatever. And well, Snape who is in sort of hiding with Lucius (do not ask) is getting angry and complains to Lucius that old man got completely crazy, how does he think I will ensure that Potter does that, Potter never listened to me, why the heck he will listen to me now especially when he thinks I killed Dumbledore.

Lucius makes a suggestion, which he claims always worked with Draco when Draco was in one of his "do to the contrary of what parent says" moods.

Anyways, next day Harry gets a letter, which reads something like that "Potter I demand you go and surrender to the Dark Lord right now" and signed Snape, one of the Dark Lord minions (or something like that, I am paraphrasing, but you got the gist). Harry of course decides to be extra careful and not leave Dursleys till order picks them up.

Did Snape seriously think that after him treating Harry as he did Harry will pay his warning any attention?



5. This is the first time we see Harry, Ron, and Hermione work as a team to
fight Voldemort. What skills do you attribute to each and why do you think they
work so well together?

Alla:

I loved their teamwork and that made me all the more annoyed at the movies that must not be named. Hear me filmmakers, book Hermione CAN loose her head and yes, Ron can make sure that she is back to her thinking.

I am not sure about special skills, especially in book 1 except of course Hermione being erm
 extremely well read.



6. The key was still flying around, the chess pieces were in the proper
position and enough potions were available to permit Harry to make his way
through to the end. Did you find it surprising that the first intruder hadn't
taken steps to keep from being followed?

Alla:

Yes, but this again goes back to does not make too much sense lol. Unless he was in extra hurry and I am not sure why he would be.



7. Were you surprised that Snape's protection was more logic than pure
potions? Did you try or were you able to solve the puzzle before reading
Hermione's solution?


Alla:

Well, no I was not surprised, I think I actually remember it pretty well that with Snape dismissing "silly wand waving", I sort of expected him to be logical, just was not sure that this is not wide spread among the wizards lol. No I could not solve the puzzle.


8. When I reread this chapter I remembered just how much FUN it was to read and how much foreshadowing author stuck in there.

Consider, here is the famous quote, which some of us kept hoping for years meant that Harry will survive:

"In years to come, Harry would never quite remember how he had managed to get through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to come bursting through the door at any moment"

No, of course I was not sure, but as I said, this one sounded hopeful.


"Not for nothing, though, was Harry the youngest Seeker in a century. He had a knack for spotting things other people didn't"


Alla:

I love this one especially after DH. So, do you see any other foreshadowing examples in this chapter?


Thank you for the fun questions, Caryl.








From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Dec 20 18:01:15 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 20 Dec 2009 18:01:15 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/20/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1261332075.15.13901.m4@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188637

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
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From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Dec 21 14:39:26 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 14:39:26 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 16, Through the trapdoor
In-Reply-To: <hgeru0+3vfi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hgo1au+ejbp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188638


> Questions:


> 1. Why do you think it took from October to June for "Snape" to go after the
Stone?

Potioncat:
It took that long to find out how to get past Fluffy.  It was April that Hagrid got the dragon egg from a stranger at the Hogshead. It was about 6 weeks later that Quirrell went for the Stone. The only explanation I can think of is that LV needed more doses of unicorn blood for strength, or that they were also trying to work out the other clues.
(Timeline from the Lexicon)
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Do you find it surprising/objectionable that JKR makes such casual
> references to drinking alcohol and people getting drunk in a book written
>primarily for children?

Potioncat:
Sometimes drinking scenes bother me, but these didn't. In this case we see how alcohol was used to trick someone--someone who would never let Dumbledore down. Alcohol wasn't glamorized or promoted to the reader, but very subtly discouraged.
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Do you think Snape's warning to Harry about nighttime wanderings came from
> overhearing the trio's conversation with McGonagall and Harry's speculation
>about Snape going after the Stone that night?

Potioncat:
I don't think Snape overheard the conversation with McGonagall because there seems to be some passage of time between the two meetings. Interesting that both teachers refer to the earlier nighttime event--with McGonagall threatening another 50 points (at her second meeting) and Snape threatening expulsion. McGonagall seems surprised at their being inside so it's no wonder Snape might think they're up to something.  He doesn't have any reason to think they know about the stone, but with DD gone, Snape would want Harry safe. I'm a little surprised McGonagall doesn't take more action, since she knows their concern over the stone.
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Knowing what we do now about Snape's efforts to protect Harry, why do you
> think he acted in such a suspicious manner if he really wanted to keep Harry
>from acting? Why not just tell him outright?

Potioncat:
I didn't think he acted in a suspicious manner. I thought he was straightforward---"no more nighttime wanderings." Well, yes, it all seemed suspicious to Harry and the reader.
> 
> 
> 
> 5. This is the first time we see Harry, Ron, and Hermione work as a team to
> fight Voldemort. What skills do you attribute to each and why do you think they
>work so well together?

Potioncat:
Harry is the leader of the pack, but not the boss---a different dynamic than Draco's gang. They all have strengths and weaknesses and they respect each other. They also play to each other's strengths and weaknesses. Hermione knew what was needed to thwart the Devil's Snare--but it took Ron to goad her into action. "Are you a witch or not!" I love it and had forgotten it started in SS/PS.

Ron really shines in this chapter--I've been disappointed that JKR let him down a bit in later books.
> 
> 
> 
> 6. The key was still flying around, the chess pieces were in the proper
> position and enough potions were available to permit Harry to make his way
> through to the end. Did you find it surprising that the first intruder hadn't
>taken steps to keep from being followed?

Potioncat:
I find it surprising that each enchantment has a solution. Maybe the idea was that only DD would know all the solutions but it still seems odd to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 7. Were you surprised that Snape's protection was more logic than pure
> potions? Did you try or were you able to solve the puzzle before reading
>Hermione's solution?

Potioncat:
It was potions and logic. Again, this one seemed more intent on making the passage successful than on stopping the intruder. If Hermione is correct, very few wizards would have attempted it, but I wonder if Tom Riddle had some skill in logic himself---it seems to be a Muggle trait. I know the later Voldemort had little sense at all.

Thanks for the questions,Caryl!






From Meliss9900 at aol.com  Wed Dec 23 05:29:55 2009
From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:29:55 EST
Subject: [HPforGrownups] CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 16, Through the trapdoor
Message-ID: <158f8.55963ae2.386304d3@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188639

 
In a message dated 12/17/2009 9:54:21 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
carylcb at hotmail.com writes:

4.  Knowing what we do now about Snape's efforts to protect Harry, why do  
you
think he acted in such a suspicious manner if he really wanted to keep  
Harry
from acting? Why not just tell him outright?


I don't think that Snape thought that he was behaving in a suspicious  
manner, he was being forthright it was just Harry's (and our) perceptions that  
made is seem suspicious.   
 
Melissa


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From d2dmiles at yahoo.de  Thu Dec 24 21:49:14 2009
From: d2dmiles at yahoo.de (Miles)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 22:49:14 +0100
Subject: Happy whatever
Message-ID: <6EECBEED4FDD450488C56DDF354C72B7@miles>

No: HPFGUIDX 188640

Hi all,

since the list seems to be quite dry at the moment, I dare wishing all the 
best on main, hoping the elves are lying  under some Christmas trees, 
drunken with butterbeer :

A Blessed Christmas to everyone who feels at home in Christian faith,

Sacred days to all who are not Christian, but religious,

and Happy Holidays to all the others who just enjoy some days of quietude.

Martin 




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Fri Dec 25 01:07:01 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 01:07:01 -0000
Subject: Happy whatever
In-Reply-To: <6EECBEED4FDD450488C56DDF354C72B7@miles>
Message-ID: <hh137l+pjq1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188641

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miles" <d2dmiles at ...> wrote:

Martin:
> Hi all,
 
> since the list seems to be quite dry at the moment, I dare wishing all the 
> best on main, hoping the elves are lying  under some Christmas trees, 
> drunken with butterbeer :
 
> A Blessed Christmas to everyone who feels at home in Christian faith,
 
> Sacred days to all who are not Christian, but religious,
 
> and Happy Holidays to all the others who just enjoy some days of quietude.
 

Geoff:
Auch w?nsche ich Ihnen eine frohe Weinachten und ein gutes Neues Jahr.

Gr??e aus England.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Dec 25 01:34:20 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 01:34:20 -0000
Subject: Happy whatever
In-Reply-To: <hh137l+pjq1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hh14qs+hbm2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188642


 "Miles" <d2dmiles@> wrote:

  
> > and Happy Holidays to all the others who just enjoy some days of quietude.
>  
> 
> Geoff:
> Auch w?nsche ich Ihnen eine frohe Weinachten und ein gutes Neues Jahr.
> 
> Gr??e aus England.

Potioncat;
Have a magical holiday, one and all.
>





From s_ings at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 25 05:47:40 2009
From: s_ings at yahoo.com (S_Ings)
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2009 05:47:40 -0000
Subject: Merry Christmas from the List Elves
Message-ID: <hh1jls+k67i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188643

A List Elf in a Santa hat and festive tea towel steps forward, parchment in hand.

Can I have your attention please? It has come to the attention of the List Elves that some of you are celebrating Christmas today. In honour of this tradition the List Elves have decided to join the fun by composing a song for you.

Muttering is heard from the back of the room.
"OMG, we have to sing?"
"She's not really going to make us, is she?"
"Someone pass the butterbeer."
"This is going to be fiasco!"
"You watch, they'll all starting running when we sing."

"Pipe down back there and let's entertain the list members!"
Okay folks, here goes. Feel free to join in the singing.

The 12 Days of Christmas at HPFGU

On the first day of Christmas the List Elves gave to me a holiday greeting from Hexquarters.

On the second day of Christmas the List Elves gave to me two sides of Snape and
a holiday greeting from Hexquarters.

On the third day of Christmas the List Elves gave to me 3 Quidditch rings,
2 sides of Snape and
a holiday greeting from Hexquarters.

On the fourth day of Christmas the List Elves gave to me 4 Marauders changing,
3 Quidditch rings,
2 sides of Snape and
a holiday greeting from Hexquarters.

On the fifth day of Christmas the List Elves gave to me 5 sister boards,
4 Marauders changing,
3 Quidditch rings,
2 sides of Snape and
a holiday greeting from Hexquarters.

On the sixth day of Christmas the List Elves gave to me 6 shifting stairs,
5 sister boards,
4 Marauders changing,
3 Quidditch rings,
2 sides of Snape and
a holiday greeting from Hexquarters.

On the seventh day of Christmas the List Elves gave to me 7 years at Hogwarts,
6 shifting stairs,
5 sister boards,
4 Marauders changing,
3 Quidditch rings,
2 sides of Snape and
a holiday greeting from Hexquarters.

On the eighth day of Christmas the List Elves gave to me 8 ships at T-Bay,
7 years at Hogwarts,
6 shifting stairs,
5 sister boards,
4 Marauders changing,
3 Quidditch rings,
2 sides of Snape and
a holiday greeting from Hexquarters.

On the ninth day of Christmas the List Elves gave to me 9 naughty List Elves,
8 ships at T-Bay,
7 years at Hogwarts,
6 shifting stairs,
5 sister boards,
4 Marauders changing,
3 Quidditch rings,
2 sides of Snape and
a holiday greeting from Hexquarters.

On the tenth day of Christmas the List Elves gave to me 10 leaping centaurs,
9 naughty List Elves,
8 ships at T-Bay,
7 years at Hogwarts,
6 shifting stairs,
5 sister boards,
4 Marauders changing,
3 Quidditch rings,
2 sides of Snape and
a holiday greeting from Hexquarters.

On the eleventh day of Christmas the List Elves gave to me 11 singing merfolk,
10 leaping centaurs,
9 naughty List Elves,
8 ships at T-Bay,
7 years at Hogwarts,
6 shifting stairs,
5 sister boards,
4 Marauders changing,
3 Quidditch rings,
2 sides of Snape and
a holiday greeting from Hexquarters.

On the twelfth day of Christmas the List Elves gave to me 12 months of birthdays,
11 singing merfolk,
10 leaping centaurs,
9 naughty List Elves,
8 ships at T-Bay,
7 years at Hogwarts,
6 shifting stairs,
5 sister boards,
4 Marauders changing,
3 Quidditch rings,
2 sides of Snape and 
a holiday greeting from Hexquarters.

"We really gave all that to the group?"
"Well, JK Rowling helped a lot."

"Thank goodness this serenading is all over with!"
"Did you HEAR that off-key singing from the back row?"
"Can you believe some them actually stayed through the whole thing?"
"And some even sang along?!"
"I think that deserves some kind of reward!"
"I know, let's break out the food and drink."

Cookies and milk are on the side table, with stronger drink provided for those who prefer (or who feel themselves in need after that ordeal!). Pull up a comfy chair in front of the fire and join in celebrating this festive time of year.

Merry Christmas from the List Elves!

*a small voice from back mutters, "Can I take this ridiculous red hat off now?"* :D





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sat Dec 26 19:07:47 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 26 Dec 2009 19:07:47 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/27/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1261854467.525.18871.m11@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188644

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday December 27, 2009
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
(The next reminder for this event will be sent in 22 hours, 52 minutes.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
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Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
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Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

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From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Dec 26 22:07:26 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince)
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 22:07:26 -0000
Subject: mostly PS/SS Chapter 16 / Fanfic / List Elves
Message-ID: <hh61eu+hkfl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188645

Caryl discussed PS/SS Chapter 16 in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188634>:

<< As they prepare to leave, Neville appears from behind a chair in the corner and confronts them about doing something that will lose more House points. They try to talk Neville out of trying to stop them, but when he continues to delay their departure, Hermione casts a body-binding spell at him and they reluctantly leave him lying frozen on the common room floor. (big snip) Harry praises Hermione's recall of Herbology facts, >>

I continue to believe that Dumbledore expected Neville to be one of the expedition, and the Devil's Snare was intended for him, because Neville is good at Herbology.

<< They tell him "Don't be stupid," and move into the room to find a harp abandoned at the dog's feet. Harry plays the flute Hagrid gave him and the dog goes back to sleep >>

Does this mean that they didn't really need the flute and could have used the harp instead, or had Quirrel enchanted the harp so that it would scream if anyone but him touched it?

I suppose Dumbledore somehow planted the idea in Hagrid's mind of giving Harry a flute, because I don't think Hagrid would have thought of it on his own; an early copy of The Monster Book of Monsters might be more his style.

<< Climbing over a knocked-out noxious-smelling troll (and relieved that they didn't have to fight it) (big snip) 6. The key was still flying around, the chess pieces were in the proper position and enough potions were available to permit Harry to make his way through to the end. Did you find it surprising that the first intruder hadn't taken steps to keep from being followed? >>

Ffred Clegg replied to the above in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188635>:

<< I always thought that the magic in the various traps caused them to reset themselves. >>

I agree, but why wasn't the troll reset as well?

Alla wrote in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188636>:

<< I rarely if ever bring the discussion of fanfiction on this list, since it is not the list to discuss fanfiction >>

As you recall, the reason that fanfic and recipes and movies and everything were exiled to their own lists is because this Main List was getting too crowded and people wanted to hold it down to approximately 500 posts a week. I believe that at this time, the other lists could be rolled back in to this one and the limit of 5 posts per person per day could be dropped. Because we would still be under 500 posts a week. Maybe even the ban on 'ROTFL' and 'I agree' posts could be dropped.

<< Lucius makes a suggestion, which he claims always worked with Draco when Draco was in one of his "do to the contrary of what parent says" moods.

Anyways, next day Harry gets a letter, which reads something like that "Potter I demand you go and surrender to the Dark Lord right now" and signed Snape, one of the Dark Lord minions (or something like that, I am paraphrasing, but you got the gist). Harry of course decides to be extra careful and not leave Dursleys till order picks them up. >>

My friend Lee has been known to use that technique on me successfully, altho' I am now 52. Wasn't I only 42 when I joined the e-groups version of this list?

The List Elves sang to us in <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/188643>:

<< Merry Christmas from the List Elves! >>

Thank you, List Elves! And thanks for your hard work all year.

<< *a small voice from back mutters, "Can I take this ridiculous red hat off now?"* >>

Do the Santa hats count as clothes that make you free now? That would be appropriate, as the depiction of Santa hats, with the pointed tip falling to one side, resembles the depiction of Phrygian caps, used by the French Revolution people as 'liberty caps', a symbol of freedom.

The Wikipedia article <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_cap> begins: "The Phrygian cap is a soft, red, conical cap with the top pulled forward, worn in antiquity by the inhabitants of Phrygia, a region of central Anatolia. Originally a priestly cap, it came to signify freedom and the pursuit of liberty in the Roman west," with a good illustration.

Years ago, an exhibition about the later Roman emperors was at Muzeo and they had a recreationist group, Legion XI 'Hispana', on weekends. After looking at (among other things) a statue head of a mercenary wearing a Dacian cap, I went outside and saw a legionary wearing one. His looked to be made of fairly thick felt sewn with a seam in back.
Q: "Is that a Dacian cap?" 
A: "Yes." 
Q: "Is that the same thing as a Phrygian cap?" 
A: "Yes". 
Q: "Yours has a seam up the back. The one on the status inside doesn't have any seam, so I thought it might be knitted." "
A: "No, they aren't knitted. The statue left out the seam because the sculptors liked to idealize things."





From poohmeg20 at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 27 00:15:36 2009
From: poohmeg20 at yahoo.com (Megan Real)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:15:36 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 17, The Man with Two Faces
Message-ID: <hh68v8+6t2s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188646

This message is a Special Notice for all members of

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups

In addition to being published onlist (available in webview), this post is also
being delivered offlist to email in boxes) to those whose "Message Delivery" is
set to "Special Notices." If this is problematic or if you have any questions,
contact the List Elves at HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com
(minus that extra space)




CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone
Chapter Seventeen, The Man with Two Faces

 
Harry has made it into the final chamber, where he discovers that Professor Quirrell had been the one trying to get the stone all along, not Snape, and that Quirrell is being directed by Voldemort. Quirrell is unable to get the stone out of the Mirror of Erised, so Voldemort tells him to use Harry to do it. When Quirrell tries to take the stone from Harry, he realizes that he is burned when Harry touches him, so Harry is able to hold him off by grabbing his face - but Harry blacks out from the pain in his scar.
 
Harry wakes up in the hospital wing, where Dumbledore updates him that he (Dumbledore) arrived in time to save Harry and the stone, and the stone will now be destroyed. At the end-of-term feast, some last-minute points to Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Neville give Gryffindor the house cup, and everyone heads home for the summer. 
 
Questions:
 
1. The first time you read the chapter, were you surprised that it had been Quirrell trying to knock Harry off his broom back at the Quidditch match?
 
2. What kind of spell do you think Quirrell used to get the rope to tie Harry up?
 
3. I can't recall exactly where I read the following argument (searching previous discussions on here turned up far too many results to be sure), so I apologize if this is redundant, and if you know who brought this up, please give them credit - but it has been suggested (somewhere) that Quirrell should have been able to get the stone from the mirror, since he wanted it not for himself, but for Voldemort. What do you think?
 
4. Do you think that Voldemort was able to read Harry's thoughts at all during this chapter?
 
5. What do you think would have happened if Voldemort had gotten the stone?
 
6. In an alternate universe, if this book hadn't sold well, there might not have been any more published. If this had been a stand-alone book, with no sequels, would you have found it to be satisfying? 


NOTE: For more information on HPfGU's chapter discussions, please see " POST DH
Chapter Discussions" at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/database?method=reportRows&tbl=33

Next Chapter Discussion, Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 1, The Worst Birthday, on January 03 2010.

If you would like to volunteer to lead a Chamber of Secrets chapter discussion,
please
contact drop a note to HPforGrownups-owner @yahoogroups.com (minus that extra
space).

Megan Real




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Dec 27 18:04:01 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 27 Dec 2009 18:04:01 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 12/27/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1261937041.27.74166.m5@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188647

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday December 27, 2009
1:00 pm - 2:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right.

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK



All Rights Reserved
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 Yahoo! Inc.
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From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Dec 28 03:28:50 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 03:28:50 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 17, The Man with Two Faces
In-Reply-To: <hh68v8+6t2s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hh98li+j9iu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188648

 1. The first time you read the chapter, were you surprised that it had been Quirrell trying to knock Harry off his broom back at the Quidditch match?

Potioncat::
Completely. Even though I had been told Snape wasn't the villain, I hadn't figured out who was. I don't think I ever suspected poor Quirrell.

>  
> 2. What kind of spell do you think Quirrell used to get the rope to tie Harry up?, 

Potioncat:
I don't know but maybe it's the same one Snape used on Lupin in PoA. I don't have it with me, but I think he snaps his figures like Quirrell did. Hmmm I wonder if this is a Dark Curse?

>  
> 3. I can't recall exactly where I read the following argument (searching previous discussions on here turned up far too many results to be sure), so I apologize if this is redundant, and if you know who brought this up, please give them credit - but it has been suggested (somewhere) that Quirrell should have been able to get the stone from the mirror, since he wanted it not for himself, but for Voldemort. What do you think?

Potioncat:
Nope, because he wanted to use it to bring Voldemort back. So he couldn't get it. Harry only wanted to keep it from LV, not to use it, or to have it used.

>  
> 4. Do you think that Voldemort was able to read Harry's thoughts at all during this chapter?

Potioncat:
He knew Harry was lying. After LV looked at Harry, LV knew where the stone was. So it appears he could at least legilimens Harry.

  
> 5. What do you think would have happened if Voldemort had gotten the stone?
 Potioncat:
Just what he said, he would have been able to get a body and be alive again.

>  
> 6. In an alternate universe, if this book hadn't sold well, there might not have been any more published. If this had been a stand-alone book, with no sequels, would you have found it to be satisfying? 

Potioncat:
The book as it stands is a satisfying book.  But it`s difficult now to imagine that a second book wouldn`t follow. For me the real hook to the series was the hints from one book to the next--a rare treat from the other "children`s lit" I had been reading. You know, the kind that have a sequel every year which has nothing to do with what came before. 

Thanks for the interesting questions! 








From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Dec 28 07:45:48 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 07:45:48 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 17, The Man with Two Faces
In-Reply-To: <hh68v8+6t2s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hh9nnc+de79@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188649

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Megan Real" <poohmeg20 at ...> wrote:

off:
Just a couple of quick thoughts...

> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone
> Chapter Seventeen, The Man with Two Faces
 
> Questions:
>  
> 1. The first time you read the chapter, were you surprised that it had been Quirrell trying to knock Harry off his broom back at the Quidditch match?

Very definitely. Although to be accurate, I had seen the film first 
but it was still a great surprise there.

> 2. What kind of spell do you think Quirrell used to get the rope to tie Harry up?

I suspect an Incarcerous spell.

> 5. What do you think would have happened if Voldemort had got the stone?

Well, the story would have ended there surely. Because he would 
have returned to a body and continued from before with his drive 
to take over the Wizarding World and probably succeeded.

> 6. In an alternate universe, if this book hadn't sold well, there might not have been any more published. If this had been a stand-alone book, with no sequels, would you have found it to be satisfying? 

I think that the book could have been popular as a stand-alone novel 
although the ending would have been rather weak and left matters 
up in the air.




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Mon Dec 28 11:23:59 2009
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 04:23:59 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happy whatever
References: <6EECBEED4FDD450488C56DDF354C72B7@miles>
Message-ID: <7165B6D0DACE4E3BBF5EA6F95ACA4F16@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 188650

God Rest Ye Merry Hippogriffs, each and every one.

Shelley



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Dec 29 03:31:59 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 03:31:59 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 17, The Man with Two Faces
In-Reply-To: <hh68v8+6t2s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hhbt7f+50s9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188651


 
> CHAPTER DISCUSSION: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone/Philosopher's Stone
> Chapter Seventeen, The Man with Two Faces
> 
>  
> Harry has made it into the final chamber, where he discovers that Professor Quirrell had been the one trying to get the stone all along, not Snape, and that Quirrell is being directed by Voldemort. Quirrell is unable to get the stone out of the Mirror of Erised, so Voldemort tells him to use Harry to do it. When Quirrell tries to take the stone from Harry, he realizes that he is burned when Harry touches him, so Harry is able to hold him off by grabbing his face - but Harry blacks out from the pain in his scar.
>  
> Harry wakes up in the hospital wing, where Dumbledore updates him that he (Dumbledore) arrived in time to save Harry and the stone, and the stone will now be destroyed. At the end-of-term feast, some last-minute points to Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Neville give Gryffindor the house cup, and everyone heads home for the summer. 

> 
> Megan Real
>

Potioncat
I have a couple of thoughts about this last chapter of SS/PS. As I've said before, it's been nice to have the time to read through the book slowly, discussing it as we go along. 

DD says something along the line that everything that happened was secret, so of course everyone knew all about it. An odd thought for someone known for keeping secrets. Yet, Hermione and Ron had questions for Harry and we learn the truth is more fantastic than the rumors. After a little thought, I decided that the parts "everyone knew about" must have come from Hermione and Ron. (Percy knows that Ron beat McGonagall's chess set.) It was only the last bit of Harry's adventure that was really secret. I don't think anyone has any idea of LV being there. What do the rest of you think?

Over the years, many of us have said DD's speech giving extra points to Gryffindor was an affront to Slytherin; something he shouldn't have done in that way. But at this reading, it seemed to flow better and did seem to be more appropriate.  I think I get a different point of view reading the book again, and seeing the different events in their context. DD was rewarding the 3 Gryffindors for saving the stone from Quirrell!Mort, and rewarding Neville for his bravery. This was Harry's first public appearance since the events--so it didn't seem so much a dig at Slytherin as a notice of Gryffindor.

Also, a bit of foreshadowing--was it Alla who commented on that in the earlier chapter? DD explains that LV left Quirrell to die; he says LV shows as little mercy to his followers as to his enemies---what a foreshadowing of Snape's death that is!

Here's a question of my own. The narrator describes Snape's fixed smile as he shakes McGonagall's hand. How do you think McGonagall looked when she congratulated Snape in the past for winning the House Cup?




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Dec 29 06:26:07 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 06:26:07 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 17, The Man with Two Faces
In-Reply-To: <hhbt7f+50s9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hhc7dv+nq04@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188652


> 
> Potioncat
> I have a couple of thoughts about this last chapter of SS/PS. As I've said before, it's been nice to have the time to read through the book slowly, discussing it as we go along. 
> 
> DD says something along the line that everything that happened was secret, so of course everyone knew all about it. An odd thought for someone known for keeping secrets. Yet, Hermione and Ron had questions for Harry and we learn the truth is more fantastic than the rumors. After a little thought, I decided that the parts "everyone knew about" must have come from Hermione and Ron. (Percy knows that Ron beat McGonagall's chess set.) It was only the last bit of Harry's adventure that was really secret. I don't think anyone has any idea of LV being there. What do the rest of you think?

Pippin:
Everyone knows that Harry saved the Stone. Voldemort would automatically be suspected of trying to steal it, just as he was suspected of the Gringotts robbery. But I don't think anyone knew he'd possessed Quirrell and invaded Hogwarts, or they wouldn't have been so skeptical about his return later on.  


Potioncat: 
> Here's a question of my own. The narrator describes Snape's fixed smile as he shakes McGonagall's hand. How do you think McGonagall looked when she congratulated Snape in the past for winning the House Cup?
>
Pippin:
I haven't got my book with me, but doesn't McGonagall says that she doesn't think she can look Severus Snape in the face if Slytherin wins again? I'd have to imagine her congratulatory expressions looked forced.

Pippin 







From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Dec 29 16:32:40 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:32:40 -0000
Subject: CHAPTER DISCUSSION PS/SS 17, The Man with Two Faces
In-Reply-To: <hhc7dv+nq04@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hhdav8+ddp0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188653



> Pippin:
> I haven't got my book with me, but doesn't McGonagall says that she doesn't think she can look Severus Snape in the face if Slytherin wins again? I'd have to imagine her congratulatory expressions looked forced.
> 


Potioncat:
I agree! I went back to re-read this section, because I thought the whole point of the description was supposed to tell us something about Snape. Actually it's what follows--that Snape caught Harry's eyes and his dislike was still evident--that is important. It also closes a circle-- the exchanged look at the Welcoming feast; Snape was talking to Quirrell, and this look at the End of Term Feast as he was talking to McGonagall. 




From antonia31h at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 29 14:37:20 2009
From: antonia31h at yahoo.com (antonia31h)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:37:20 -0000
Subject: Lily and Snape
Message-ID: <hhd470+l6me@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188654

Hello everyone,

I am relatively new to this forum, although I became a member a few years ago, but due to some family problems, I could not get very much involved. I enjoy discussing Harry Potter, but as I am not a teenager any more I prefer to talk more with adults because I feel that as an adult you see these books in a different manner than a child might.

So getting to my questions here (sorry for the long rant), I have been wondering for quite some time about some facts regarding Lily Potter and Severus Snape. My questions are the following: did Lily know that Snape was the one who told Voldemort about the prediction about Harry? Actually did Lily and Snape keep in touch after Hogwarts or did they just go on separate ways? Considering that they were good friends in the past, did Snape ever try to apologise to Lily (while she was still alive) for putting her life in danger? Did he ever try to do anything more than just plead for her life to Voldemort?

antonia31h



From bart at moosewise.com  Tue Dec 29 18:38:18 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 13:38:18 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and Snape
In-Reply-To: <hhd470+l6me@eGroups.com>
References: <hhd470+l6me@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4B3A4C9A.9020203@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188655

antonia31h wrote:
> So getting to my questions here (sorry for the long rant), I have been wondering for quite some time about some facts regarding Lily Potter and Severus Snape. My questions are the following: did Lily know that Snape was the one who told Voldemort about the prediction about Harry? Actually did Lily and Snape keep in touch after Hogwarts or did they just go on separate ways? Considering that they were good friends in the past, did Snape ever try to apologise to Lily (while she was still alive) for putting her life in danger? Did he ever try to do anything more than just plead for her life to Voldemort?

Bart:
    Most of this is conjecture. First of all, let us take a look at 
Dumbledore. Assuming that the name was picked carefully, it has multiple 
levels of meaning. "Dumbledore" is an archaic term for a bumblebee; 
going from flower to flower, pollinating them, and seeing what sort of 
fruit comes forth. Secondarily, the term "dumb" has a double meaning as 
well: stupid, and not talking. Now, going back to Dumbledore the 
character, we see him as a manipulator, operating in secrecy, putting 
forth a face of someone who is a bit doddering. In other words, all 
three meanings. But in your sense, I would think that unless there was a 
specific reason for letting Lily know that Snape was the informant, than 
DD would not tell her, and I see no specific reason for letting Lily know.

    The implication from the books is that after the Snapes Worst Day 
incident, all communication between Lily and Snape ceased. The 
conversation that day implied that there were a lot of apologies; that 
this was the last straw.

    As for Snape dealing with Morty, it is pretty clear that Snape asked 
Morty to spare Lily, and Morty had every intention of doing so, but due 
to his lack of understanding of love, figured that he'd just tell Snape, 
"Well, I tried to save her, but she wouldn't let me. But don't worry, 
I'll find you an even better witch!"

    Bart




From antonia31h at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 29 19:19:17 2009
From: antonia31h at yahoo.com (antonia31h)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 19:19:17 -0000
Subject: Lily and Snape
In-Reply-To: <4B3A4C9A.9020203@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hhdknl+9qsg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188656

> Bart:
> <snip>
> The implication from the books is that after the Snape's
> Worst Day incident, all communication between Lily and
> Snape ceased. The conversation that day implied that
> there were a lot of apologies; that this was the last
> straw.


antonia31h:
I am surprised that Snape did not try to communicate with
Lily after the incident in the pensieve. I mean he was in
love with her and until her death he did not even want to
say something more to her than just apologise?



From bart at moosewise.com  Tue Dec 29 19:43:40 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:43:40 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily and Snape
In-Reply-To: <hhdknl+9qsg@eGroups.com>
References: <hhdknl+9qsg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4B3A5BEC.3040308@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188657

antonia31h wrote:
> antonia31h: 
> I am surprised that Snape did not try to communicate with 
> Lily after the incident in the pensieve. I mean he was in 
> love with her and until her death he did not even want to 
> say something more to her than just apologise?
>   

Bart:
    Remember, this is just speculation on my part. The Snape's Worst 
Memory (SWM) meeting between Snape and Lily was reminiscent, at least to 
me, of the part of A CHRISTMAS CAROL where Scrooge and his fiance break 
up. It's clear from the conversation that this was a long time coming. 
Lily gave Snape a choice: Her or the Death Eaters. Snape chose the Death 
Eaters.

    Bart




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Dec 30 00:24:01 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:24:01 -0000
Subject: Lily and Snape
In-Reply-To: <hhd470+l6me@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hhe6j1+o0km@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188658


Antonia31h 
> So getting to my questions here (sorry for the long rant), I have been wondering for quite some time about some facts regarding Lily Potter and Severus Snape. My questions are the following: did Lily know that Snape was the one who told Voldemort about the prediction about Harry? Actually did Lily and Snape keep in touch after Hogwarts or did they just go on separate ways? Considering that they were good friends in the past, did Snape ever try to apologise to Lily (while she was still alive) for putting her life in danger? Did he ever try to do anything more than just plead for her life to Voldemort?
> 

Potioncat:
Here's my speculation on the topic.

I don't think Dumbledore told anyone who the informant was. Doing so would have put Snape at even greater danger, and his ability to spy for DD would end.

I think Severus and Lily's friendship ended the 5th year at Hogwarts. It had never developed into a romance. If or how often he may have thought about her and regreted the ending of their relationship, I cannot say. But it did end and she married Potter. I think Severus's affections went dormant over those years, and only emerged when he realised she was in danger and he was the cause. 

I don't think Snape apologized--for the same reason DD never told. It would put his ability to spy at risk--and honestly, I don't think he would want Lily to know.


Did he do more than plead for her life to LV for her life? Yes, he also pleaded for her life to DD. (That's a lot, don't you think?)




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Dec 30 00:27:53 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:27:53 -0000
Subject: Lily and Snape
In-Reply-To: <hhdknl+9qsg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hhe6q9+prsr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188659


> antonia31h:
> I am surprised that Snape did not try to communicate with
> Lily after the incident in the pensieve. I mean he was in
> love with her and until her death he did not even want to
> say something more to her than just apologise?
>

Pippin:
I am sure that over the years there was much he wanted to say, or wished he had said. But she had made it clear that she was through with him. I wish that Snape respected that because he respected her feelings, but it seems more likely to me that, like James, he had a healthy respect for her powers as a witch. 

Pippin




From antonia31h at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 30 08:22:58 2009
From: antonia31h at yahoo.com (antonia31h)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 08:22:58 -0000
Subject: Lily and Snape
In-Reply-To: <hhe6q9+prsr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hhf2l2+8i5u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188660

> > antonia31h:
> > I am surprised that Snape did not try to communicate with
> > Lily after the incident in the pensieve. I mean he was in
> > love with her and until her death he did not even want to
> > say something more to her than just apologise?
> >
>
> Pippin:
> I am sure that over the years there was much he wanted to
say, or wished he had said. But she had made it clear that
she was through with him. I wish that Snape respected that
because he respected her feelings, but it seems more likely
to me that, like James, he had a healthy respect for her
> powers as a witch.


antonia31h:
The way I see it is that if Snape had truly loved Lily and
did not have some sort of obsession over her (that's my theory
regarding his feelings) he would have given even his life in
order to save hers. Lily did that for her son and proved to
everyone the power of true love. If Snape had done the same
thing for her he would have got the redemption that he probably
wanted, at least in Lily's perception. Instead he chose to live
with the guilt for the rest of his life and not even that guilt
could not prevent him from being a jerk towards Lily's son. And
also what kind of love is Snape really feeling when he does not
care ever so slightly that Lily's son might die so that she
could be spared. What exactly did he think he might have obtained
if Lily survived and her family died?

Anyway I still have a lot of questions regarding Snape and
Lily, but as a conclusion I would say that if love is meant
to make the best of a person I really don't see how that
changed Snape in a better way before and after Lily's death.



From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Dec 31 03:36:05 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:36:05 -0500
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily and Snape
In-Reply-To: <hhf2l2+8i5u@eGroups.com>
References: <hhf2l2+8i5u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4B3C1C25.6000803@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188661

antonia31h wrote:
> The way I see it is that if Snape had truly loved Lily and 
> did not have some sort of obsession over her (that's my theory 
> regarding his feelings) he would have given even his life in 
> order to save hers. 

Bart:
    And how, pray tell, could his death have accomplished more to save 
Lily than what he did?

    Bart




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Dec 31 04:39:07 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:39:07 -0000
Subject: I resolve to...
Message-ID: <hhh9tb+l0ss@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188662

In a few hours  we'll start making New Year's Resolutions. Let's do something different this year. Let's make them for someone else.

Choose any Harry Potter character(s) and make a New Years resolution for him. You can base it post DH, or make it according to what would have improved the character's outcome. For example, "I resolve to not play with fire" would be a good one for  Crabbe
or was it Goyle?

Have fun, and Happy New Year!

Potioncat





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Dec 31 04:40:31 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:40:31 -0000
Subject: Lily and Snape
In-Reply-To: <4B3C1C25.6000803@moosewise.com>
Message-ID: <hhh9vv+6cg4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188663



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky <bart at ...> wrote:
>
> antonia31h wrote:
> > The way I see it is that if Snape had truly loved Lily and 
> > did not have some sort of obsession over her (that's my theory 
> > regarding his feelings) he would have given even his life in 
> > order to save hers. 
> 
> Bart:
>     And how, pray tell, could his death have accomplished more to save 
> Lily than what he did?
> 

Pippin:
If failing to save Lily proves that Snape didn't love her, then  James couldn't have loved her either. But I don't think that's the case. 

Just being willing to die wasn't enough. It was having a choice that allowed Lily to save Harry. Ironically, if  Snape had died in the course of spying for Dumbledore "at great personal risk", then not only would Lily not have been saved, Harry wouldn't have been saved either. With Snape dead, Voldemort would no longer have had a reason to offer LIly any chance to live.

I think the silver doe shows that Snape's love was real, as do the risks he took on Lily's behalf.  Love  didn't stop him from being a jerk or give him insight into Lily's feelings or Harry's character. The characters in canon who show consideration and insight do so because they've found that's an effective way of dealing with people, not because they love. Barty Crouch Jr is the proof of that. 

Pippin





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 31 15:16:14 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:16:14 -0000
Subject: I resolve to...
In-Reply-To: <hhh9tb+l0ss@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hhif7u+9q61@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188664



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> In a few hours  we'll start making New Year's Resolutions. Let's do something different this year. Let's make them for someone else.
> 
> Choose any Harry Potter character(s) and make a New Years resolution for him. You can base it post DH, or make it according to what would have improved the character's outcome. For example, "I resolve to not play with fire" would be a good one for  Crabbe
or was it Goyle?
> 
> Have fun, and Happy New Year!


Alla:

Heh,

For Snape: I resolve to stay away from Snakes big and small.

For Dumbledore : I resolve to stay away from rings.

Happy New Year guys :)




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 31 16:33:34 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 16:33:34 -0000
Subject: Lily and Snape/Loving couples in canon
In-Reply-To: <hhh9vv+6cg4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hhijou+4ntm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188665



> Pippin:
> If failing to save Lily proves that Snape didn't love her, then  James couldn't have loved her either. But I don't think that's the case. 
> 
> Just being willing to die wasn't enough. It was having a choice that allowed Lily to save Harry. Ironically, if  Snape had died in the course of spying for Dumbledore "at great personal risk", then not only would Lily not have been saved, Harry wouldn't have been saved either. With Snape dead, Voldemort would no longer have had a reason to offer LIly any chance to live.


Alla:

Oh yeah, that is true. I think it is even more ironical that had Snape died much earlier than in course of spying for Dumbledore, Lily and James may not have been ever given to Dumbledore as prophecy couple. 

But replying to the thread in general, it had been my position for a long time that Snape obsessed and loved Lily indeed, but I saw Snape as obsessing over alive Lily and only transforming his feelings into more noble sort of love after she was dead. Thus going back to original question, I could easily imagine Snape never letting Lily go completely, but doing something as creepy as spying in her windows, etc, etc. Before I get a rebuttal that it is not in canon, I DO realize that, however since canon does not definitely say that five year WAS their last interaction, not as far as I remember anyway, I feel free to **speculate**, that just goes in line how I see Snape's character. 


Pippin:
> I think the silver doe shows that Snape's love was real, as do the risks he took on Lily's behalf.  Love  didn't stop him from being a jerk or give him insight into Lily's feelings or Harry's character. 

Alla:

Yeah, I agree with that lol.

Pippin:
The characters in canon who show consideration and insight do so because they've found that's an effective way of dealing with people, not because they love. Barty Crouch Jr is the proof of that. 


Alla:

Wait, I do not think that what you are saying is that the only real love shown in canon is the love of the jerk or somebody who shows no insight or consideration in other character's feelings?

And everybody else are just manipulators?  Yes, Molly shrieked at Arthur a lot, but it seemed to me that in OOP and HBP they were shown as a loving couple (not perfect of course) who tried to help each other. My opinion of course.

And I don't know, adults Harry and Ginny seemed to me to be pretty much in tune with each other in the epilogue.

And Andromeda and Ted in the limited space that we saw them did not seem to me to be rubbing each other the wrong way too.

And it seemed to me that Lupin finally learned some consideration and insight in how Tonks feels.

What I am trying to say is that while I do believe that Snape at least learned to love Lily for real, dead or alive, I do not buy that his example is the example of the only real love in canon.

JMO,

Alla




From bart at moosewise.com  Thu Dec 31 18:51:18 2009
From: bart at moosewise.com (Bart Lidofsky)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 13:51:18 -0500
Subject: Snape and Harry
Message-ID: <4B3CF2A6.6050502@moosewise.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188666

Bart:
    In regard to Snape's treatment of Harry, once again, I see parallels 
between the story of Severus Snape and Dicken's A CHRISTMAS CAROL (you 
can read the actual short novel by going to Project Gutenberg 
<http://www.gutenberg.org> and searching on "Dickens", without quotes, 
as author and "christmas carol", without quotes as title words. The 
novel has never been 100% faithfully rendered on the screen or stage, as 
far as I know, so it's worth reading).

    Frankly, when I read the novel, the only character I had any 
sympathy for was Fred, Scrooge's nephew. I suspect that he was probably 
there to have a point of self-identification to the reader (not unlike 
Dr. Watson in the Sherlock Holmes stories). But it is in Fred that I see 
the parallel. Scrooge had a duty to provide at least minimal support for 
Fred, but he blamed Fred for the death of Scrooge's beloved sister, who 
died in childbirth. Similarly, what I see in the Snape/Harry 
relationship is that Snape has a moral duty to protect Harry, but when 
he looks at Harry, he sees what Lily lost her life over, not to mention 
a constant reminder of his own tormentor in youth who took Lily away 
from him (in Snape's point of view).

    I do think that, between HBP and the climax of DH, Snape mellows 
somewhat, and thinks more kindly of Potter. Perhaps being forced into 
the role of the secret protector of the student body (like assigning 
detention of anti-Morty students to Hagrid) helped in this.

    Bart


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Dec 31 21:47:17 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 21:47:17 -0000
Subject: Lily and Snape/Loving couples in canon
In-Reply-To: <hhijou+4ntm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hhj655+aa8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188667


> 
> Pippin:
> The characters in canon who show consideration and insight do so because they've found that's an effective way of dealing with people, not because they love. Barty Crouch Jr is the proof of that. 
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Wait, I do not think that what you are saying is that the only real love shown in canon is the love of the jerk or somebody who shows no insight or consideration in other character's feelings?

Pippin:
Correct, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that in canon the ability to love is unrelated to the ability to have insight into people's feelings or treat  them with consideration when you'd rather do otherwise. Lupin, for example, shows great insight and consideration towards Neville, and I don't think he's being manipulative, but I don't think that means  Lupin loves Neville more than he loves Tonks or his unborn child. 

Pippin






From antonia31h at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 31 08:47:45 2009
From: antonia31h at yahoo.com (antonia31h)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 08:47:45 -0000
Subject: Lily and Snape
In-Reply-To: <hhh9vv+6cg4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hhhofh+n95r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188668

> > Bart:
> >     And how, pray tell, could his death have accomplished more to save
> > Lily than what he did?
> >
>
> Pippin:
> If failing to save Lily proves that Snape didn't love her, then  James couldn't have loved her either. But I don't think that's the case.
>
> Just being willing to die wasn't enough. It was having a choice that allowed Lily to save Harry. Ironically, if  Snape had died in the course of spying for Dumbledore "at great personal risk", then not only would Lily not have been saved, Harry wouldn't have been saved either. With Snape dead, Voldemort would no longer have had a reason to offer LIly any chance to live.
<SNIP>

antonia31h:
I think a gesture from Snape, while Lily was alive could have mattered to her and make her realise that he was an honorable and trustworthy friend after all. Yes, after her death he tried his best to protect her son (in his own manner) and to repay the debt that he felt he had towards her. But why not try to talk to her, to prove to her all this while she was still alive? If the "mudblood" gesture made her turn away, couldn't have been any other act of his that might have made her forgive him? If I would have been in Snape's situation and considering that the person I loved was in danger and could be gone forever at any moment, I would have wanted not to let her go without explaining myself. I would have wanted to see a scene from his memories where he at least tries as an adult to talk to Lily and to make her forgive him.

antonia31h.



From winterfell7 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec 31 22:20:09 2009
From: winterfell7 at hotmail.com (SteveE)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 22:20:09 -0000
Subject: Forgiveness
Message-ID: <hhj82p+j5q8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188669

I was thinking of how important a theme forgiveness was in the HP universe and was hoping for some feedback.  Harry's forgiveness of Snape I know has been widely discussed, but that's only one example. IMO Harry also came to forgive Kreacher to a large degree for his betrayal of Sirius.  I'm not sure if Kreacher's change of attitude toward HRH could be considered forgiveness or rather simply gratitude for being given RAB's locket and their kindness to him, etc. 

Some other examples IMO of forgiveness included the Weasley's forgiveness of Percy; Harry and Hermione's forgiveness of Ron for leaving; Ginny's understanding and forgiveness of Harry for breaking up w/ her to protect her, and Harry's forgiveness of Dumbledore. 

I wonder to what extent Harry in time came to forgive Draco and the other Slytherins who tormented him in school. In the epilogue it appeared they at least had some degree of respect for each other.
And I would believe that Molly would have certainly forgiven HRH for not confiding in her and the OotP once the facts of their "mission" to destroy Horcruxes and find the Deathly Hallows came to light.

I wonder if Marietta or cho ever came to forgive Hermione for her jinx on Marietta. I don't remember anyone else w/ a possible motive to consider what Hermione did as something to be forgiven, other than perhaps Marietta's family and closest friends, some of whom very well may have considered what was done to her as just in spite of their biased attitude and relationship w/ her.  I wonder if other members of the DA in later years came to forgive Marietta?

There must be many other examples of forgiveness as a recurring theme in the 7 novels. I don't have time to list others now, unfortunately.
I really do believe however that it's one of the most important themes in the novels.

Steve, who also wonders if LV had shown remorse, and had given himself up and apologized for all his evil whether or not he would ever have been forgiven by anyone?   




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Dec 31 23:26:32 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 23:26:32 -0000
Subject: Forgiveness
In-Reply-To: <hhj82p+j5q8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <hhjbv8+57mi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 188670



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "SteveE" <winterfell7 at ...> wrote:

Steve, 

> who also wonders if LV had shown remorse, and had given himself up and apologized for > all his evil whether or not he would ever have been forgiven by anyone?

Geoff:
Within a Christian context, yes.

And since JKR was writing within that context, had it been part of 
the story line for Voldemort to repent and show remorse, I believe 
she would have had it happen.