From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 01:56:33 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 01:56:33 -0000
Subject: Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <gm2ji4+62g6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm2vgh+ftql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185565

Carol earlier:
><snip>
> > But as for "unlikely spur-of-the-moment choice," unlikely or not,
it *is* a spur-of-the-moment invention. 
> 
> Geoff:
> That, actually, is what I meant - that it was an "unlikely
spur-of-the-moment invention" - it was a name which they had used already.

Carol responds:

It can't possibly be a name they've used already. All three boys are
eleven years old and have just met--if you can call an unfriendly
chance encounter "meeting." In SWM, it's a name they've used before,
but in the Hogwarts Express encounter in "The Prince's Tale," Sirius
(or, less likely, james) is making it up on the spot.
> 
Carol earlier:
> > Neither James nor Sirius knows Severus. The only reason they know
 >his first name is that Lily uses it. 
> 
> Geoff:
> I think you're incorrect. <snip>
> 
> However, I think the following is the relevant piece of canon:
> 
> '"This'll liven you up, Padfoot" said James quietly. "Look who it is..."

Carol responds:

I see the source of confusion. Of course they knew who Severus was in
SWM. They'd had classes with him for five years, and "Snape" would
have stood out in a crowd. I'm talking about the first time Sirius (or
possibly James) used the name, in the Hogwarts Express when they were
all brand-new first-years.

Carol, who can't provide a page number for the Bloomsbury edition, but
it's in "The Prince's Tale"




From juli17 at aol.com  Sun Feb  1 02:43:36 2009
From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 21:43:36 EST
Subject: To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storyline
Message-ID: <d22.3645445d.36b66658@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185566

 


Carol,  who sees no point in continuing to argure our differing
interpretations of  this passage



Julie:
True, that. What it really boils down to is that some readers are  comfortable
with the ambiguity about Slytherin House, and some would have preferred  to
have had the moral stand against Voldemort spelled out for them ;-) 
 
Hey, I admit I'm one of the latter! I wanted it clearly acknowledged in the  
end
that Slytherin House was *potentially* like any other House, comprised  of 
those
from all spectrums along the "good" to "bad" scale (or again, with the  same 
general potential to land anywhere along that scale). No doubt some will 
virtually always become good (Luna, Neville) and others bad  (Bellatrix, 
Peter),
but not all nor even most are incapable of internalizing new ideals or  mores
at age 11 (or age 21 even, as we saw with Snape).
 
Thus I also wanted to see some acknowledgement that ostracism and  biased
judgments (If a Gryffindor does it, it's good, if a Slytherin does it, it's  
bad) will
never, ever influence someone--let alone a whole House--to change his or  her
views, or even consider the differing opinions and views of those who are 
ostracizing and judging them. (And note, I'm not talking about changing 
someone like Tom Riddle or Bellatrix, who probably can't be changed, but 
all those hundreds of other Slytherins throughout the years like Snape  and
Regulus, who didn't enter school with their minds so set--or  damaged--that
they couldn't be influence toward the "good" side. That is, if someone  had
ever cared or tried to do so.)
 
Julie, who doesn't really buy that Lily tried to sway Snape to the "good"  
side,
because despite rightly criticizing his friends she never really  offered him 
a 
practical alternative, or any actual assurance that she'd truly be  there 
with 
him if he shunned his House. (And, no JKR didn't have to write it for it to  
have
happened offpage, but she should have if she wanted her readers to  believe
It was Snape alone who destroyed the relationship between him and  Lily--also
it would have helped if Lily hadn't laughed at him in his graying underwear  
;-)
 
Oops, rambled off again!
 
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De
cemailfooterNO62)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Feb  1 02:59:15 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 02:59:15 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <glvd47+g3f8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm3363+4ni2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185567

Pippin:
> ><snip>
> > 
> > IMO, Harry understands that Gryffindor's reputation is inflated
and Slytherin's is unfairly tarnished, paralleling Dumbledore and Snape.
> <snip>
> 
> Laura says:
> 
> Why unfairly?  It seems to me that Slytherin more than earned its 
> reputation.
> <snip>

Pippin:
Did they deserve to be hated on sight? Excluded from the DA?  Presumed
guilty until proven innocent?

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 03:32:45 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 03:32:45 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm3363+4ni2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm354t+saj5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185568

> Pippin:
> Did they deserve to be hated on sight? Excluded from the DA?  Presumed
> guilty until proven innocent?
>

Alla:

You know, Pippin, it is funny. Couple weeks ago I had a conversation 
with somebody about how unfair it is to judge the group of people by 
stereotyping and response I got was the one I did not expect, but the 
one I fully understand. Basically what my friend was saying is 
stereotyping maybe unfair, but that is how our mind works and it is 
often a simple survival instinct.

To bring it back to Slytherins, did the whole house deserved it? In a 
purely hypothetical way, of course not, in a not hypothetical way, the 
representatives of this House (a whole LOT of them mind you, not  just 
Pantsy dear) was ready to hang Harry to Voldemort.

So, yeah, I say it was a very understandable instinct on Mcgonagall 
behalf to order them all out.

Did Slytherin deserve not to be invited in DA? Um, purely 
hypothetically of course not. But based on how the Slytherins we saw 
treated Harry and his friends, yes, sure, why should they invite those 
who they suspect of sympathizing with Voldemort?

Would it be nice if they look beyond Malfoy and his company? Surely, 
why not. I am just not sure at whom they should look at among the 
current students.

In short, if Slytherin was judged simply because everybody else looked 
at them and said, oh wait they sound funny and look funny, let's 
ostracise them and be prejudiced against them, I will be the first one 
to say, how dare they.

But they had plenty of good reasons to judge the house based on the few 
they interacted with.

I totally understand why Slytherins were judged based on the few and 
excluded.

Just as I understand how Harry may judge Slytherins differently based 
on others few that he saw fighting the battles.

JMO,

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 03:36:22 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 03:36:22 -0000
Subject: To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storyline/ Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <gm27pa+96qh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm35bm+2g34@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185569

> > Alla:
> > 
> > Just want to comment on this point - who says that it will be 
> > important to Harry and to the story? 
> 
> Magpie:
> I'm just saying that the Slytherins are people we already know, who 
> we already saw leave etc. Where as the shopkeepers in Hogsmeade 
are, 
> by comparison, less important. Therefore, I don't see how one could 
> say that it would break the mood to mention these Slytherins who 
were 
> just featured in a tense scene and sent away, where as it does not 
> break the mood to mention shopkeepers from town. 
> 
> As I have said, I don't think there relative importance to the 
story 
> is relative to reading that sentence.

Alla:

OOOOO. You know what? I think you are right. Alla shakes her head. 
You are basically just saying that regardless of how important the 
Slytherins' return is to the story and to Harry, if their exit was 
written clearly, there is no reason to not write their return clearly.

I think I may agree, but I have to reflect some more on it. I think 
those two issues were interwined in my mind and for too long. All 
right, yes, from the story point, I totally see what you are saying, 
it will be bizarre for the author to write the point A so clearly and 
when it gets to point B, it is so ambigious.

Hm, I may just had a revelation.



Magpie:
>(However, if that side issue 
> gets brought up, yes, I would say that it's a bit odd to claim 
> shopkeepers in Hogsmeade are so much familiar and important in 
> Harry's life than the Slytherins who actually have featured far 
more 
> in his life. I suspect a quick search of HP4GU would turn up a lot 
> more for Slytherins than shopkeepers in Hogsmeade.)

Alla:

Sorry, but I do not believe that the topics that we considered 
important necessarily mean that JKR considered it important. I 
actually think shopkeepers in Hogsmead just may be more important to 
Harry in a sense that he may like them more and narrator may feel it 
is important to mention them.

Magpie:
>It basically once 
> again comes down to asking why JKR didn't write that the Slytherins 
> returned if they returned. Iow, she didn't write them returning. 
She 
> did write that shopkeepers from Hogsmeade came to Hogwarts to 
fight.  
> 
> It says the Slytherins left when they left (how important or not 
> those Slytherins are to Harry doesn't have any bearing on that). It 
> never says anything about those Slytherins returning. <SNIP>

Alla:

As I said before I do get why the ambiguity may be strange from 
narrative POV (FINALLY), but definitely find it very plausible that 
since it was not important to Harry he would not mention it.

JMO,

Alla




From lizzyben04 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 03:36:25 2009
From: lizzyben04 at yahoo.com (lizzyben04)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 03:36:25 -0000
Subject: Disarming spell/ Character's choices/Buffy!
In-Reply-To: <glstkg+i704@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm35bp+gug6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185570

<snip>
> Lealess:
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the storytellers didn't spend a lot of
> story time on orcs or storm troopers the way JKR gave names and back
> stories and fun scenes to Slytherin students. She made the Slytherins
> compelling, perhaps inadvertently. And as others have said, JKR also
> seemed, through the Sorting Hat, to advocate the reconciliation of
> Slytherin with other houses. (I haven't read the Narnia books.)
> 
> Magpie:
> I was just referring to the idea of "Slytherin House" doing something 
> heroic and so the houses all joining again--I don't think it's 
> automatically unheard of to not have that happen. How could it be, 
> really? Since when you've got good side vs. bad side stories you 
> generally have two choices: defeat or reconciliation. Of course 
> authors have chosen each over the years.
> 
> In terms of how Slytherin House is presented absolutely, I think 
> there are many things that are unique to HP. The uneasy (imo) final 
> fates of the Slytherins we know I think definitely point to something 
> not cliche. I think Slytherins relatively inferior nature is very 
> specific to the series. There are several Slytherins who choose not 
> to take the most evil choice, usually through love of someone else. 


lizzyben:

Really I think the best analogy to the Slytherins of Harry Potter are
the vampires of Buffy. The key point about vampires is that they lack
a soul & are therefore incapable of true selfless action or altruism.
They can love & make great sacrifices for the *individual*
person/vampire they love, but they don't give two cents about humanity
as a whole, except as a resource to exploit or use. 

So Spike, for example, can be in love with Buffy (somewhat creepily) &
try to protect her & be willing to sacrifice his life for her; but
this does not make him a good guy. Because he'll do it only for the
person *he* loves; he wouldn't care about anyone else. Cause he's
still a soulless monster w/o empathy. And even that one love is shown
to be somewhat obsessive and selfish - because he lacks a soul for
real goodness or moral virtue. That's pretty similar to Snape's story
to me, at least in how Rowling intends us to view it. She says in
interviews that Snape wouldn't have cared what happened to Harry at
all if he wasn't Lily's son. In the Prince's Tale, she pounds over &
over that Snape does it for Lily, and only Lily. Narcissa does
something good for Draco, and only Draco. Because they lack a soul &
are therefore incapable of true selfishness or altruism. 

As compared to, say, Harry, who chooses to die to save all humanity,
as Jesus did. I think the comparison is stark and intentionally so. If
Harry is her emblem of pure altruism (dying for all mankind), the
Slytherins are his absolute antithesis (saving their own skins). JKR
never *wanted* to redeem the Slytherins & is probably be puzzled by
fans' desire to do so. 


lizzyben




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Sun Feb  1 06:17:56 2009
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 23:17:56 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
References: <gm3363+4ni2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <43AB490642A1410FAC1DFF25B543D171@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 185571

> Pippin:
>> ><snip>
>> >
>> > IMO, Harry understands that Gryffindor's reputation is inflated
> and Slytherin's is unfairly tarnished, paralleling Dumbledore and Snape.
>> <snip>
>>
>> Laura says:
>>
>> Why unfairly?  It seems to me that Slytherin more than earned its
>> reputation.
>> <snip>
>
> Pippin:
> Did they deserve to be hated on sight? Excluded from the DA?  Presumed
> guilty until proven innocent?


Wait, who in Slytherin was "hated on sight"? Seems to me that Syltherin 
members, as Laura said, EARNS their reputation. Draco, as the bully, earns 
his own name. The kids being the sons and daughters of death eaters, 
scowling at the Mudbloods, earns them the reputation. Sorry, but Rowling 
doesn't show us one Syltherin who doesn't earn the reputation as a whole, 
any single individual who defies the group to be a good person. I don't see 
where even oneSyltherin was "hated on sight"- Rowling is clear to introduce 
each of them "joining the gang" as it were, to earn the reputation.

Shelley 




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 08:44:36 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 08:44:36 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <43AB490642A1410FAC1DFF25B543D171@homemain>
Message-ID: <gm3ndk+dtdv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185572

Shelley:
> Wait, who in Slytherin was "hated on sight"? Seems to me that Syltherin 
> members, as Laura said, EARNS their reputation. Draco, as the bully, earns 
> his own name. The kids being the sons and daughters of death eaters, 
> scowling at the Mudbloods, earns them the reputation. Sorry, but Rowling 
> doesn't show us one Syltherin who doesn't earn the reputation as a whole, 
> any single individual who defies the group to be a good person. I don't see 
> where even oneSyltherin was "hated on sight"- Rowling is clear to introduce 
> each of them "joining the gang" as it were, to earn the reputation.

Montavilla47:
There is a Slytherin (I think it's Malcolm Baddock) who is hissed by 
Fred and George as he is sorted into Slytherin.  




From leahstill at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  1 13:36:49 2009
From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 13:36:49 -0000
Subject: Disarming spell/ Character's choices/Buffy!
In-Reply-To: <gm35bp+gug6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm48hh+tcpt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185573

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizzyben04" <lizzyben04 at ...>  
> lizzyben:
> 
> Really I think the best analogy to the Slytherins of Harry Potter 
are
> the vampires of Buffy. The key point about vampires is that they 
lack
> a soul & are therefore incapable of true selfless action or 
altruism.
> They can love & make great sacrifices for the *individual*
> person/vampire they love, but they don't give two cents about 
humanity
> as a whole, except as a resource to exploit or use. 
> 
> So Spike, for example, can be in love with Buffy (somewhat 
creepily) &
> try to protect her & be willing to sacrifice his life for her; but
> this does not make him a good guy. Because he'll do it only for the
> person *he* loves; he wouldn't care about anyone else. Cause he's
> still a soulless monster w/o empathy. And even that one love is 
shown
> to be somewhat obsessive and selfish - because he lacks a soul for
> real goodness or moral virtue. That's pretty similar to Snape's 
story
> to me, at least in how Rowling intends us to view it. She says in
> interviews that Snape wouldn't have cared what happened to Harry at
> all if he wasn't Lily's son. In the Prince's Tale, she pounds over 
&
> over that Snape does it for Lily, and only Lily. Narcissa does
> something good for Draco, and only Draco. Because they lack a soul 
&
> are therefore incapable of true selfishness or altruism. 
> 
> As compared to, say, Harry, who chooses to die to save all 
humanity,
> as Jesus did. I think the comparison is stark and intentionally 
so. If
> Harry is her emblem of pure altruism (dying for all mankind), the
> Slytherins are his absolute antithesis (saving their own skins). 
JKR
> never *wanted* to redeem the Slytherins & is probably be puzzled by
> fans' desire to do so. 
> 
> 
> lizzyben

Leah: 

Yay, Snape as Spike - I could definitely see that post DH. But 
eventually Spike wants so much to be worthy of Buffy, that he sets 
out to get himself a soul and wrestles demons (literally) to obtain 
one.  At the very end, Buffy tells Spike that she loves him, and 
he's progressed enough to say thanks for saying it, but actually, no 
you don't, and then he goes on to help save not just Buffy, but the 
world, fighting off the hordes from the abyss with the stone of 
Whatsitsname and giving his life in the process.

I don't think Lily ceased to be a prime motivator for Snape, but she 
ceased to be the only motivation.  Snape doesn't care only about 
Lily when he tries to save Draco, either in HBP or in the final 
confrontation with Voldemort in the Shrieking Shack.  He doesn't 
care only about Lily when he says 'Lately, only those I could not 
save'.  

Neither are Snape and Narcissa trying to save their own skins when 
they spy on and lie to Voldemort. They're putting their skins at 
great risk.

I'm disagreeing here, but I do agree that a lot of what is written 
in the books and a lot of what JKR says in interviews appears to 
support your analysis, and there are other things (as written above) 
that don't. That's partly why I find DH such a muddle.  And I do 
agree that Rowling wants us to admire that Gryffindor 'saving people 
thing', and I think the reason a lot of fans want to redeem 
Slytherin is that they actually see more moral worth in what 
the 'good' Slytherins do than in the Gryffindor approach.

It seems to me that people who act out of genuine altruism to all ae 
are actually pretty rare, and probably born not made.  Most of us 
find it much easier to do things for those we love than strangers.  
There is a lot of wonderful work done by people who eg became 
involved with the children at one particular neglected orphanage or 
witnessed one particular miscarriage of justice. There was Oscar 
Schindler, for example, who was not a 'good' man, and could not have 
cared less about the Nazis until they targeted his workers, *his* 
Jews. He went on from saving them to saving all whom he could 
save.   Rowling described Harry in one interview as 'just good'.  
I'd disagree, but that's not the point.  You can't be redeemed if 
you're 'just good', there's no need for it, and there's much more 
interest, as well as rejoicing, in one sinner who repents etc. It's 
the struggle for a soul that I want to read about -others may well 
differ.

Leah 




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  1 15:38:53 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 15:38:53 -0000
Subject: To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storylineWAS :Re: Disarming spell
In-Reply-To: <gm2fit+phjv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm4fmd+8hug@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185574

> Carol responds:
> Sorry to waste a post, but I was addressing Pippin. She's the one 
who
> said (IIRC) that Harry doesn't recognize people from other Houses or
> even his own unless they're classmates or on the Quidditch team, a
> point that jkoney and I have also made.

Magpie:
D'oh! So sorry about that. I think I cut and pasted several posts 
first and then started answering and mixed up where one ended and 
another began or something. Sorry!

Julie:
True, that. What it really boils down to is that some readers are 
comfortable
with the ambiguity about Slytherin House, and some would have 
preferred to
have had the moral stand against Voldemort spelled out for them ;-)

Magpie:
Actually--and I know I keep harping on this thread but sometimes I do 
get a bone in my teeth and won't let go--I *don't* think that's the 
argument. I think that's a separate argument that sometimes overlaps. 

What I'm talking about is a single sentence which I don't think is 
ambiguous on the point of Slytherins (since it doesn't mention them 
at all) is ambiguous. It's more about "what does this sentence say?" 
then a question of how exactly one sees Slytherin in the books (as 
unredeemably evil or as having the potential for good in them 
somewhere--to me they remind of the unsaved in other stories who 
could therefore one day be saved and redeemed--this story is just not 
about that. Until then they are not like the others, but that does 
not make them evil or without redeeming qualities or any potential to 
do good. But it does seem like they either need to reject Slytherin 
House or convert the entirety of the House to be redeemed).

I just feel like the idea that the Slytherins returned with Slughorn 
there is separate from the idea that the author wrote the Slytherins 
returning with him using words on the page, either implied or 
otherwise. 

Alla:

OOOOO. You know what? I think you are right. Alla shakes her head.
You are basically just saying that regardless of how important the
Slytherins' return is to the story and to Harry, if their exit was
written clearly, there is no reason to not write their return clearly.

Magpie:
Hurray!:-)

There are plenty of things that are not mentioned in the story that 
can still be said to have happened--the author can't mention 
everything (bathing, going to the bathroom being the most obvious 
examples). But having a character or a group leave the room, and then 
later be there without being said to return is just a mistake. In 
this case the Slytherins aren't just not written as returning, 
theyr'e never mentioned as being there later either. So the idea that 
it's ambiguous whether or not they were there is just confusing to 
me. It just seems as simple as, "No, they left, remember? Here's the 
scene where they left and there's no mention of them after that." If 
there was a mention of them after that I would say JKR forgot to 
write them returning but clearly they did, at least. Reasons why the 
narrator didn't tell us this fact are still reasons it's admittedly 
not written or told to us anywhere.

Shelley:
> Wait, who in Slytherin was "hated on sight"? Seems to me that 
Syltherin
> members, as Laura said, EARNS their reputation. Draco, as the 
bully, earns
> his own name. The kids being the sons and daughters of death eaters,
> scowling at the Mudbloods, earns them the reputation. Sorry, but 
Rowling
> doesn't show us one Syltherin who doesn't earn the reputation as a 
whole,
> any single individual who defies the group to be a good person. I 
don't see
> where even oneSyltherin was "hated on sight"- Rowling is clear to 
introduce
> each of them "joining the gang" as it were, to earn the reputation.

Magpie:
I think it's clear that after a while Slytherin=bad even before you 
know the person. Kids getting Sorted into Slytherin are boo'd by the 
Twins (though one could suggest that was House Rivalry rather than 
them saying the boy was evil--though I think it's clear with 
Slytherin the two are bound up together). Slughorn also has to 
say "don't hold that against me" when Harry seems ready to react 
badly to him because he's in Slytherin.

I do think people are shown disliking Slytherins before they have a 
reason to, however I also think the Slytherins are as a whole shown 
to be nasty people. Is it a chicken/egg thing? I'm not so sure it is, 
considering we're told Salazar was a Pureblood supremist who started 
his house on those same ideals. Plus the Sorting does seem based on 
personality, and while there are Slytherins who do do things that are 
good in canon, or choose against the Pureblood ideology, even they 
are shown to start out with the familiar negative qualities.

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 17:05:00 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 17:05:00 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <43AB490642A1410FAC1DFF25B543D171@homemain>
Message-ID: <gm4kns+9h6o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185575

Shelley wrote:
> Wait, who in Slytherin was "hated on sight"? Seems to me that
Syltherin members, as Laura said, EARNS their reputation. Draco, as
the bully, earns his own name. The kids being the sons and daughters
of death eaters, scowling at the Mudbloods, earns them the reputation.
Sorry, but Rowling doesn't show us one Syltherin who doesn't earn the
reputation as a whole, any single individual who defies the group to
be a good person. I don't see where even oneSyltherin was "hated on
sight"- Rowling is clear to introduce  each of them "joining the gang"
as it were, to earn the reputation.

Carol responds:

I think that "The Prince's Tale" shows another story, with James
hating Severus on sight, or at least sneering at him and judging him,
simply because he wants to be in Slytherin (which he apparently has
been told is the House for "brains" while Gryffindor is the House for
"brawn"). And Sirius, who apparently till that moment expected to be
Sorted into Slytherin like everyone else in his (extended) family,
joins in the sneering, labeling Severus "Snivellus" with no cause.
(Some of us assumed that he and James had at least seen Severus
"snivelling" by some definition of the term, but that turns out not to
be the case.)

Only four Slytherins that we know of are sons of Death Eaters (no DE's
daughters are identified), and one of the four, theodore Nott, ignores
Harry until his own father is arrested and even then does nothing
worse than whsper to Draco in Potions class. You can't assume that all
Slytherins are DEs' children (we don't see any Rowles or Yaxleys or
Dolohovs or Macnairs in Slytherin--the Lestranges we know to be
childless--nor do we know of any DEs called Parkinson or Bulstrode or
Flint or Montague or Warrington (last names of some of the few
Slytherins known to Harry), and we know for sure (HBP) that Blaise
Zabini, for all his Pure-Blood snobbery, also turns up his nose at
Death Eaters. In any case, if it's wrong for Snape to judge Harry
based on his arrogant, rule-breaking bully of a father, it's wrong to
judge the four Slytherins we know to be children of DES based on the
sins of their DE fathers. (We can, however, judge Draco, Crabbe, and
Goyle, at least, based on their own behavior. We don't, IMO, know
enough about Theo to judge him. I feel rather sorry for him,
actually--motherless, raised by an elderly DE father, then to all
intents and purposes fatherless, too, when his injured father is
arrested after the MoM fiasco.)

Carol, also noting the narrator's remark in HBP with regard to Blaise
Zabini that Slytherins and Gryffindors "loathed each other on
principle" (Am. ed. 143), an unthinking, mutual prejudice in which
neither gives the other a chance to prove worthy of friendship or
admiration




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb  1 17:58:33 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 1 Feb 2009 17:58:33 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/1/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1233511113.10.7810.m53@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185576

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday February 1, 2009
1:00 pm - 1:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. 

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK


All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2009 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20090201/6a324725/attachment.html>

From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Feb  1 20:19:04 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:19:04 -0000
Subject: Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <gm2vgh+ftql@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm503o+hkq7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185577

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol earlier:
> ><snip>
> > > But as for "unlikely spur-of-the-moment choice," unlikely or not,
> it *is* a spur-of-the-moment invention. 
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > That, actually, is what I meant - that it was an "unlikely
> spur-of-the-moment invention" - it was a name which they had used already.
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> It can't possibly be a name they've used already. All three boys are
> eleven years old and have just met--if you can call an unfriendly
> chance encounter "meeting." In SWM, it's a name they've used before,
> but in the Hogwarts Express encounter in "The Prince's Tale," Sirius
> (or, less likely, james) is making it up on the spot.
> > 
> Carol earlier:
> > > Neither James nor Sirius knows Severus. The only reason they know
>  >his first name is that Lily uses it. 
> > 
> > Geoff:
> > I think you're incorrect. <snip>
> > 
> > However, I think the following is the relevant piece of canon:
> > 
> > '"This'll liven you up, Padfoot" said James quietly. "Look who it is..."
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> I see the source of confusion. Of course they knew who Severus was in
> SWM. They'd had classes with him for five years, and "Snape" would
> have stood out in a crowd. I'm talking about the first time Sirius (or
> possibly James) used the name, in the Hogwarts Express when they were
> all brand-new first-years.
> 
> Carol, who can't provide a page number for the Bloomsbury edition, but
> it's in "The Prince's Tale"

Geoff:
Just in passing, it's p.539.

This doesn't deny the fact that the nickname exists. Someone has 
to be the first person to coin it. And, as I said in earlier posts, 
nicknames don't have to be flattering or friendly. Look at "Richard 
Crookback" for King Richard III for example.

Hence a nickname can be "an undeserved taunt by an enemy."






From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 20:31:45 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:31:45 -0000
Subject: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm21p7+mpsu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm50rh+inhs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185578

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazlecat54" <12newmoons at ...>
wrote:

> It wasn't a verbal instruction.  My impression of the scene is that 
> Narcissa is now in control.  After Draco refuses to identify Harry, 
> he walks over to her, and she confirms his action by reminding 
> Lucius what the consequences will be if they are wrong.


zanooda:

Well, that's not how I see it :-). Draco refuses to identify Harry
*before* Narcissa says anything at all. She reminds Lucius about the
consequences *because* Draco acts as if unsure of Harry's identity
(and because Harry's wand is not holly and phoenix feather), not the
other way around. If Draco had said "yes, it's definitely Potter, and
the other two are Granger and Weasley", she would have been more than
happy to let her husband call LV and hand them over. But I very much
agree with you that Narcissa is in control, both in "Malfoy Manor" and
in "The Dark Lord Ascending" chapters :-).








From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 20:50:14 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:50:14 -0000
Subject: Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <gm2hsb+vvet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm51u6+mrct@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185579

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "montavilla47"
<montavilla47 at ...> wrote:
 
> > Carol, who thinks it's only a nickname if the person answers 
> > to it (as Mad-eye does)
 
> Montavilla47:

> Does he?  I don't remember anyone calling him Mad-Eye to his face.
> I distinctly remember that Dumbledore addresses him as "Alistair."


zanooda:

DD and Molly Weasley address him as "Alastor", but Lupin and Tonks
call him "Mad-Eye" to his face. I don't know about the rest of the
characters, though :-).






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  1 21:20:06 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:20:06 -0000
Subject: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm50rh+inhs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm53m6+ksot@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185580

> zanooda:
> 
> Well, that's not how I see it :-). Draco refuses to identify Harry
> *before* Narcissa says anything at all. She reminds Lucius about the
> consequences *because* Draco acts as if unsure of Harry's identity
> (and because Harry's wand is not holly and phoenix feather), not the
> other way around. If Draco had said "yes, it's definitely Potter, and
> the other two are Granger and Weasley", she would have been more than
> happy to let her husband call LV and hand them over. But I very much
> agree with you that Narcissa is in control, both in "Malfoy Manor" and
> in "The Dark Lord Ascending" chapters :-).

Magpie:
Isn't it Narcissa who says Draco can identify them in the first place? 
I got the impression she didn't have any way to give him nonverbal 
instructions before she brought the three in and told them Draco would 
know who they were. My recollection was that both Narcissa and Lucius 
were looking forward to Draco being able to save them by identifying 
Harry and so giving them the go ahead to tell LV and get back in his 
good graces and Draco was the only person who was reluctant at all.

-m





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 21:22:01 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:22:01 -0000
Subject: Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <gm503o+hkq7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm53pp+k3kp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185581

 Geoff:
> Just in passing, it's p.539.
> 
> This doesn't deny the fact that the nickname exists. Someone has 
> to be the first person to coin it. And, as I said in earlier posts, 
> nicknames don't have to be flattering or friendly. Look at "Richard 
> Crookback" for King Richard III for example.
> 
> Hence a nickname can be "an undeserved taunt by an enemy."
>
Carol responds:
I don't see how you can refer to "the 'fact' that it exists" at that
point in the story. (SWM is another matter.)  The taunt (I refuse to
call it a nickname) did not exist until that moment. Sirius, who
*never saw Severus before that incident*, made it up on the spot.
Obviously, someone had to be the first to coin it, and *it happened at
that moment*. I don't understand why you're having so much trouble
understanding my point.

As for Richard III, no one in his lifetime called him by that
inaccurate and disparaging epithet. That false label was never a
nickname. If Richard III had a nickname, it was Dickon, but
shakespeare could have invented if. I don't know of any historical
evidence for the note pinned on Norfolks's tent in the Shakespeare
"history" play: "Jockey of Norfolk, be none too bold/ for Dickon, thy
master, is bought and sold." The treachery, however, was quite real,
and both Richard and Norfolk died at Bosworth Field.

Carol, noting that Sir Thomas More and Shakespeare, along with Hall
and Holinshed, are chiefly responsible for the myth of Richard III's
"deformity," which reflected their equally mythical view that he was a
murdering tyrant





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 21:37:28 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:37:28 -0000
Subject: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm53m6+ksot@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm54mo+vgff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185582

Magpie wrote:
> <snip> My recollection was that both Narcissa and Lucius were
looking forward to Draco being able to save them by identifying Harry
and so giving them the go ahead to tell LV and get back in his good
graces and Draco was the only person who was reluctant at all.

Carol responds;

I agree, except that Narcissa later warns that they need to be certain
before they summon the Dark Lord, which contrasts with Lucius's
eagerness. And the contrast between Lucius, who only wants his old
authority and power as LV's right-hand man back, and Draco, who
clearly doesn't want to identify Harry and his friends but is also
afraid of the consequences if he doesn't, is emphasized by the
narrator's description of the two side by side, virtually identical
(except for age) in their coloring and features but contrasting in
their expressions. 

Lucius, examining Harry's scar, says, "Draco, come here, look
properly! What do you think?"

And then:

"Harry saw Draco's face up close now, right beside his father's. They
were extraordinarily alike, except that while his father looked beside
himself with excitement, Draco's expression was full of reluctance,
even fear.

"'I don't know,'" he said, and he walked away toward the fireplace
where his mother stood watching." (DH Am. ed., 459.)

I don't see how it can get any clearer than that, really.

Carol, agreeing with Magpie on this point




From 12newmoons at gmail.com  Sun Feb  1 22:50:04 2009
From: 12newmoons at gmail.com (kneazlecat54)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:50:04 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm3363+4ni2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm58us+9rkp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185583


> Pippin:
> > ><snip>
> > > 
> > > IMO, Harry understands that Gryffindor's reputation is inflated
> and Slytherin's is unfairly tarnished, paralleling Dumbledore and 
Snape.
> > <snip>
> > 
> > Laura says:
> > 
> > Why unfairly?  It seems to me that Slytherin more than earned its 
> > reputation.
> > <snip>
> 
> Pippin:
> Did they deserve to be hated on sight? Excluded from the DA?  
Presumed guilty until proven innocent?
> 
Laura again:

I'm just going by the text here.  JKR doesn't show us a single 
Slytherin who's a decent human being except for Slughorn, who has some 
pretty profound shortcomings, and maybe Snape, depending on how you 
feel about him.  It may be arguable that James and Sirius were too 
rough on Snape when they met as incoming first years.  But according 
to the Lexicon, Voldy War I began in 1970, the year before the 
Marauders' generation started at Hogwarts.  So even then everyone was 
aware of who supported LV and who was fighting him.  I agree that 
James and Sirius were pretty nasty to Snape, and part of it was no 
doubt personal (Snape looking like a victim type, at least at first 
glance).  But I believe that just as much was their knowledge of 
Slytherin House, its history and behavior of quite a number of its 
current members and their parents.

There is no Slytherin during Harry's time at Hogwarts who is deserving 
of trust.  They are all shown as bullies, blood purity fanatics and 
snobs.  So I don't see how the House is defensible.  Remember, if you 
really don't want to be in a particular House, the Sorting Hat puts 
you elsewhere.  So we have to deduce that Slytherins during both the 
first and second Voldy Wars chose to be there.  






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Feb  1 22:53:24 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:53:24 -0000
Subject: To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storylineWAS :Re: Disarming spell
In-Reply-To: <gm4fmd+8hug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5954+8hhd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185584


> Magpie:
> I think it's clear that after a while Slytherin=bad even before you 
> know the person. Kids getting Sorted into Slytherin are boo'd by the 
> Twins (though one could suggest that was House Rivalry rather than 
> them saying the boy was evil--though I think it's clear with 
> Slytherin the two are bound up together). Slughorn also has to 
> say "don't hold that against me" when Harry seems ready to react 
> badly to him because he's in Slytherin.
> 
> I do think people are shown disliking Slytherins before they have a 
> reason to, however I also think the Slytherins are as a whole shown 
> to be nasty people. Is it a chicken/egg thing? I'm not so sure it is, 
> considering we're told Salazar was a Pureblood supremist who started 
> his house on those same ideals.

Pippin:
Harry decides to loathe Blaise Zabini  on principle, before Zabini has said anything.

  Salazar Slytherin  was a " twisted old loony" and anyone would have reservations about 
the judgement of  people who chose to associate with him. So what about his three best 
pals, alleged human supremacist Godric Gryffindor, Rowena Ravenclaw, who sent a stalker 
after her own daughter, and Helga Hufflepuff, who brought slavery to Hogwarts? 
What sort of people is the Hat picking for their Houses? 

And why assume that Gryffindors, Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs reinforce each other's 
positive qualities but Slytherins  reinforce each other's negative ones? That doesn't seem 
to happen in canon. Surely Snape owed his increased anger and bitterness to his treatment 
by the Marauders and not to his Slytherin friends?

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 23:07:10 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 23:07:10 -0000
Subject: To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storyline/ Slytherins (LONG )
In-Reply-To: <gm4fmd+8hug@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm59uu+st4h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185585

Alla:

OOOOO. You know what? I think you are right. Alla shakes her head.
You are basically just saying that regardless of how important the
Slytherins' return is to the story and to Harry, if their exit was
written clearly, there is no reason to not write their return clearly.

Magpie:
Hurray!:-)

There are plenty of things that are not mentioned in the story that
can still be said to have happened--the author can't mention
everything (bathing, going to the bathroom being the most obvious
examples). But having a character or a group leave the room, and then
later be there without being said to return is just a mistake. In
this case the Slytherins aren't just not written as returning,
theyr'e never mentioned as being there later either. So the idea that
it's ambiguous whether or not they were there is just confusing to
me. It just seems as simple as, "No, they left, remember? Here's the
scene where they left and there's no mention of them after that." If
there was a mention of them after that I would say JKR forgot to
write them returning but clearly they did, at least. Reasons why the
narrator didn't tell us this fact are still reasons it's admittedly
not written or told to us anywhere.


Alla:

Okay, I reflected upon it. Now could we please for the sake of 
argument accept the possibility of interpretation that those 
returning students could be Slytherins? Of course I am not asking you 
to agree with it, just to accept the possibility.

You did say somewhere upthread that you understand how those 
returning students could be Slytherins, right? Because if you are 
saying that you do not get how people could intepret it that way, I 
really do not see what else to discuss here, you know?

I just want to ponder on why the exit was written clearly and return 
was written ambigiously, or not written at all but was clear in 
author's mind, since of what I personally have no doubt.

Now, here is my thing and tell me if this analogy works for you. 
Would you say that exit and return (or NOT) of the Slytherins could 
be analogized to author saying "the door was open", but instead of 
saying "the door was closed", she would say something like - the wind 
got stronger and touched the door, and maybe it looked like another 
door in the house was closed. And then author will say in the 
interview that in her mind door was definitely closed.

Would that work for you?

Because if it does work for you, I was thinking that sure, if we 
consider door open and door closed as two parts of one event, then 
sure  I accept if nothing else the charge of bad writing, again if 
you accept JKR's intent as true.

And I can totally see how exit and return ( if it happened) of 
Slytherins should be heard as two parts of the same event, etc.

I was almost ready to see it as one event myself. But is it though?

And here where to me the importance of the event for the author comes 
in.

Why can't the exit of the Slytherins be the event that IS of interest 
to the author in her own right? And why can't their return be just 
something secondary that she knows happened, but that she could care 
less about in order to write about it clearly?

Does that make sense? When Harry in OOP cries for Sirius at the lake, 
did we really need for Harry to come back to the house in order to 
accept that he IS indeed coming back?

Why can't the exit of Slytherins for her be something that she cared 
to show not for the sake of Slytherins as group, but for example  the 
sake of Mcgonagall kicking them all out due to the actions of few? 
Maybe she wanted us to reflect upon THAT first and foremost? Mind 
you, I could care less about what Minerva did, I find it extremely 
justifiable and necessary after Pantsy's act, but I can see how she 
wanted to make a point that no, maybe what she did was not right at 
all.

She IS often showing how the actions of individuals change our 
perspective about the group, no?

So maybe with Minerva she wanted to emphacize something less than 
glorious about Gryffindor again and with clear ( we do not dispute 
that, right?) return of the Slugghorn she wanted to say something 
about Slytherin as a group?

I don't know, as I said, I totally get what you are saying, but I do 
not see how their exit and return (or non return) should necessarily 
be of equal interest to the author, even if she wanted to say that 
they did return?

JMO,

rambling Alla




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb  1 23:17:59 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 23:17:59 -0000
Subject: Narcissa / Divorce / Kill Or Not? / Returning With Slytherins?/ Myers-Briggs
Message-ID: <gm5aj7+ee46@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185586

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185455>:

<< [Narcissa] also, evidently, shared her husband's contempt for House
Elves (other than Kreacher) and abuse of Dobby >>

It seems to me that the Blacks must not have had a family tradition of
abusing their House Elves, despite beheading them. Because I can't
imagine Kreacher idolizing and adoring people who treated him like the
Malfoys treated Dobby, and I can't imagine Regulus sacrificing his own
life to take revenge on the Dark Lord for attempted murder of a House
Elf whom all his own family abused.

Did Narcissa take up the hobby of abusing House Elves because she had
married into it?

Or was Dobby just so obnoxious to the Malfoys, like Kreacher was
obnoxious to Sirius, that they hated him?

Pippin wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185439>:

<< Formal divorce is not mentioned but at least two marriages
end in permanent separation: Voldemort's parents and Hagrid's. IIRC,
we're not told of any happy, lasting wizard/non-wizard marriages. But
even where both spouses are wizards, there are various hints that not
everyone lives happily ever after, though murder or turning your
spouse into a yak seem to be preferred over legal dissolution. >>

To which, Sandy replied in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185462>:

<< It would be nice I think to discuss this topic, especially the
angle of how do you think JKR's own life experiences regarding
marriage have effected the series? After all she has been divorced and
also seems to be happily married now. >>

I think that Rowling's presentation of marriage in the wizarding world
was much less influenced by her life experiences than by her reading
experiences. She wanted to give the wizarding world a quaint,
old-fashioned feel, resembling the Victorian children's books that are
still read, with touches of even older things, like wearing medieval
robes. Those 19th and 18th century books that are still widely read in
English-speaking countries were written in countries where legal
dissolution of marriage was almost impossible to get, so that staying
around to be abused, running away to start a whole new life, and
murder were all easier methods of dealing with an unhappy marriage.

Pippin wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185487>:

<< If Harry had become distracted at the critical moment ("Look! A
Blibbering Humdinger!"), if he'd miscalculated about the Elder Wand as
badly as Lupin did when he tied himself to Pettigrew, then Voldemort
might have escaped, and found a way to rebuild his powers.

Eliminating the horcruxes did not diminish the lifespan of Voldemort's
current body -- if he had surrendered or escaped, he might have lived
as long as Grindelwald. The possibility existed, and Harry would have
to have been a fool not to know it. That is where his courage lay, in
taking that risk so that he would not have to kill, and so that
Voldemort could have one final chance to repair his soul. >>

Ethics question: Harry was risking the whole wizarding world, not just
himself. Is it just selfish to risk the whole population just to avoid
tearing one's own soul? Are there situations in which it is more evil
for a good person to avoid doing an evil thing than to do that evil
thing? Like, will I blow up that spaceship full of frightened children
fleeing the plague on Wol III to prevent them landing and infecting my
planet with the plague that will kill the entire human population
within a week? If I had a for-sure way of preventing them from
landing, I could quarantine them in orbit ... but if they don't have
enough air for the quarantine period, I'm still killing them...

Pippin wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185517>:

<< As someone who shares Harry's ineptitude with names and faces,
I'm not certain Harry could pick even Nott and Zabini out of a crowd
after a year's absence. I probably couldn't. >>

Nitpick: as someone who shares Harry's ineptitude with names and
faces, I think Blaise Zabini is a special case. We learned in HBP that
he was very handsome, the son of a famously beautiful witch who had
buried seven rich husbands, and "a tall black boy with high cheekbones
and long, slanting eyes". Tall makes him easier to spot in a crowd and
very handsome makes him memorable, especially with what I assume to be
an unusual combination of features in  Britain.

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185534>:

<< Can you imagine Slughorn and Charlie somehow knowing how to find
the friends and families of all the students who had remained at
Hogwarts to fight? >>

Charlie has a friend who is an engineer at the Wizarding Wireless
Network and has kept his head down so far, but is willing to take the
risk of feeding their audio instead of the official audio into the
broadcasting device? Or who left the WWN to work for the Resistance,
maybe is the one who set up the Pottercast, and knows how to broadcast
a signal strong enough to overpower the official signal?

Laura Kneazlecat54 wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185583>:

<< JKR doesn't show us a single Slytherin who's a decent human being
except for Slughorn, who has some pretty profound shortcomings, and
maybe Snape, depending on how you feel about him. >>

Nitpick: Did she show us anything to indicate that Phineas Nigellus
was not a decent human being, other than Sirius saying 'the most hated
Headmaster Hogwarts ever had'? I don't believe that Sirius is as big
an expert on the history of Hogwarts as, for example, Hermione is, but
I'm willing to believe that Phineas Nigellus was much hated, if only
there was anything to hint at it other than Sirius's statement and
Phineas Nigellus's snarkiness. If Hermione mentioned having read in
Hogwarts, A History, that he used Cruciatis instead of detention to
punish minor infractions, or had kids hung up in chains in the
dungeons for getting marks in the bottom quartile of their class... 

Bruce wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185564>:

<< I wouldn't be surprised if there were some schools that sorted on
the basis of the Myers-Briggs or the Enneagram.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality
I wonder if JKR knows anything about these, and if they had any impact
on her sorting? Meyers-Briggs breaks people down into 16 different
groupings, and that is divisible by four. >>

This list used to discuss which Myers-Briggs types match which
Hogwarts Houses extensively. Search on 'Myers-Briggs' on this list and
especially at
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives/messages>. I'd
never heard of the Enneagram of Personality before your post, so I
feel it's less well-known than Myers-Briggs and Rowling might not know
about it either.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Feb  1 23:18:01 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 23:18:01 -0000
Subject: Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <gm53pp+k3kp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5aj9+vdlc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185587

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
>  Geoff:
> > Just in passing, it's p.539.

> > This doesn't deny the fact that the nickname exists. Someone has 
> > to be the first person to coin it. And, as I said in earlier posts, 
> > nicknames don't have to be flattering or friendly. Look at "Richard 
> > Crookback" for King Richard III for example.

> > Hence a nickname can be "an undeserved taunt by an enemy."

> Carol responds:
> I don't see how you can refer to "the 'fact' that it exists" at that
> point in the story. (SWM is another matter.)

Geoff:
But it exists as of that point. Obviously, one use doesn't make a 
nickname but it is implicit in the OOTP chapter that the Marauders 
know, and use, the name.

Carol:
> The taunt (I refuse to call it a nickname) did not exist until that 
> moment. Sirius, who *never saw Severus before that incident*, 
> made it up on the spot.

> Obviously, someone had to be the first to coin it, and *it happened at
> that moment*. I don't understand why you're having so much trouble
> understanding my point.

Geoff:
Likewise, I don't see why you're having trouble understanding /my/ point.
Whether you like it or not, the action in  OOTP which happened later than 
that detailed in DH shows that the epithet has stuck and has become a 
nickname. We know from "Snape's Worst Memory" that this has happened 
before we see how it arose in "The Prince's Tale". How it arose is, in my 
opinion, an irrelevancy.




From aceworker at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 23:36:00 2009
From: aceworker at yahoo.com (Mr. Sandy R.Smith)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 15:36:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Slytherinas/Harry/Buffy
Message-ID: <958454.46580.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185588

<<lizzyben:

Really I think the best analogy to the Slytherins of Harry Potter are
the vampires of Buffy. The key point about vampires is that they lack
a soul & are therefore incapable of true selfless action or altruism.
They can love & make great sacrifices for the *individual*
person/vampire they love, but they don't give two cents about humanity
as a whole, except as a resource to exploit or use. 

As compared to, say, Harry, who chooses to die to save all humanity,
as Jesus did. I think the comparison is stark and intentionally so. If
Harry is her emblem of pure altruism (dying for all mankind), the
Slytherins are his absolute antithesis (saving their own skins). JKR
never *wanted* to redeem the Slytherins & is probably be puzzled by
fans' desire to do so. 

lizzyben>>

I think what you are leaving out in this analysis is that the Malfoy's are simply redeemed by their inability?to kill. This is what makes them human. They do believe in a repungent ideology, but aren't willing to kill even enemies to do this. I'm pretty sure Lucius never uses an AK, and we know Draco's story. ?????

I've always?looked at JKR's world building in terms of the Slytherins as less a depicton of clear morality and more a balance of power between groups. The Slytherins and most of the aristocrat like pure-bloods simply want to hold their power and their society (which is being eroded at the cost of half-bloods and muggle-borns) and thus ally with Voldemort as a way to do this, even if some i.e.the Malfoys don't seem to approve fully of his methods, they do approve of his ideology. There is nothing to suggest that a muggle-born or even a Gryffindor could not be purely evil...nor a Slytherin purely good.

The problem with the Slytherins is MHO has to do with JKR cuts. She clearly meant to give a somewhat more neutral depiction of them. I.e. the cut?scenes with?the Weasly Cousin Mafalda?and Nott. ?

Can anyone imagine how much better the series would have been with the Weasley cousin. I think JKR's mistake was waiting to introduce her until too late. She clearly couldn't have fit, like she said where she wanted her, but?she probably would have worked had she been introdcued in just a minor way in say the?2nd book. ???

DA Jones?.??


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 23:57:26 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 23:57:26 -0000
Subject: Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <gm5aj9+vdlc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5ct6+cup3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185589

Carol earlier:
> > The taunt (I refuse to call it a nickname) did not exist until
that moment. Sirius, who *never saw Severus before that incident*, 
made it up on the spot.
> 
> > Obviously, someone had to be the first to coin it, and *it
happened at that moment*. I don't understand why you're having so much
trouble understanding my point.
> 
> Geoff:
> Likewise, I don't see why you're having trouble understanding /my/
point. Whether you like it or not, the action in  OOTP which happened
later than that detailed in DH shows that the epithet has stuck and
has become a nickname. We know from "Snape's Worst Memory" that this
has happened before we see how it arose in "The Prince's Tale". How it
arose is, in my opinion, an irrelevancy.
>
Carol responds:

I though you were calling it an established "fact" at the time of the
Hogwarts Express incident. As I see it, Sirius invented it at the
first moment he encountered Severus and continued to use it to refer
to "Snape" in conversation with James and the other Marauders, and at
least once in public in SWM. Liking his "clever" invention, he
retained it into adulthood and continued to use it when he addressed
the adult Snape in OoP. (I can't recall whether he also used it in
PoA.) Are we agreed on that much, at least? 

IMO, it was not a universally used nickname (certainly the Slytherins
didn't use it and Severus didn't answer to it. He had his own
self-applied nickname, the Half-Blood Prince). The "nickname" was an
undeserved epithet applied for no reason except that Severus had
declared a wish to be Sorted into Slytherin and that it turned his
first name into something nasty sounding. *Of course*, it "existed" at
the time of SWM. I never said that it didn't. Sirius and James had
held onto it for five years at that point. But whether anyone else
used it (other than Lily getting revenge for being called a
"Mudblood") we don't know. Unless he was generally known or called by
that name, as Mad-eye was universally known and at least occasionally
addressed by his, I wouldn't call it a nickname. (He did, however,
answer to "Sev," at least when Lily used it. Possibly, his Slytherin
friends used it, too.)

I call "Snivellus" an epithet. You call it a nickname. It "existed" in
SWM but was clearly invented in "The Prince's Tale."

I'm not wuite sure what we're arguing about, really. I think we were
just focusing on different scenes and using a different term for
"Snivellus" because we regard it differently. (I find it a mark of
Sirius Black's continued immaturity, frankly.)

Carol, who should have said "the Hogwarts Express scene" instead of
"that scene" and apologizes for her vagueness




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb  2 00:13:34 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 00:13:34 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm354t+saj5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5dre+ppfe@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185590

-
> Alla:
> 
> You know, Pippin, it is funny. Couple weeks ago I had a conversation 
> with somebody about how unfair it is to judge the group of people by
 stereotyping and response I got was the one I did not expect, but the
 one I fully understand. Basically what my friend was saying is 
> stereotyping maybe unfair, but that is how our mind works and it is 
> often a simple survival instinct.

Pippin:
Funnily enough, I think the books agree  that prejudice is a normal
response to a dangerous situation. But normal doesn't always mean good. 

It's normal to flee from danger, too, but that doesn't mean that
running away is right. That's the link between courage and tolerance,
IMO. It takes courage to practice tolerance, not only because you 
have to stand up to your friends but because you might be putting them
in danger. 

That's scary, but the alternative is a world where everyone has to
live in isolated little groups. Because everyone in the Potterverse is
dangerous. They're all capable of hurting people who haven't given
them a reason. 
 

Alla:
> In short, if Slytherin was judged simply because everybody else
looked  at them and said, oh wait they sound funny and look funny,
let's  ostracise them and be prejudiced against them, I will be the
first one  to say, how dare they.

Pippin:
But not even the Slytherins are prejudiced that way. Oh yes, they make
fun of Hermione's looks, just as the Marauders made fun of Snape's,
but behind that for both groups was a genuine  and not entirely
unfounded fear that they would lose their place in the world. 

Snape certainly had good reasons to dislike Harry based on what he
knew of James. But his prejudice kept him from noticing any of the
ways in which Harry was not like James. Perfectly understandable, IMO,
but if we don't think that was okay, how can we think it's okay to
hate Slytherins?

Pippin




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  2 00:41:23 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 00:41:23 -0000
Subject: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm53m6+ksot@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5ffj+nbg2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185591

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie"
<sistermagpie at ...> wrote:

> Isn't it Narcissa who says Draco can identify them in the first 
> place?


zanooda:

Exactly. Narcissa was also the first to recognize Hermione (I'm sure
Draco recognized her and Ron the moment he saw them, but he didn't say
anything until he was specifically asked) and she seemed rather
excited about it. I don't see any indication that she didn't want
Draco to identify Harry.  





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  2 00:42:22 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 00:42:22 -0000
Subject: Slytherinas/Harry/Buffy
In-Reply-To: <958454.46580.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gm5fhe+m6dv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185592

DA Jones wrote:
> I think what you are leaving out in this analysis is that the
Malfoy's are simply redeemed by their inability to kill. This is what
makes them human. They do believe in a repungent ideology, but aren't
willing to kill even enemies to do this. I'm pretty sure Lucius never
uses an AK, and we know Draco's story.      

Carol responds:

While I agree that the absence of likeable Slytherins is largely JKR's
own fault, IMO, she wanted to spring Regulus on us in DH with little
preparation and Snape's true motives after having made him appear as
evil as possible. Even Phineas Nigellus, who helps out as best a
portrait can in the service of Headmaster Snape, has previously been
presented as a bigot and a snob and (in liee) "the worst headmaster
Hogwarts ever had" (his great-great-grandson's less than objective
opinion, as someone pointed out). In other words, except for Slughorn,
whom we know to be weak and sentimental and fond of creature comforts
but not evil, we really don't know any "good" Slytherins, but I think
that JKR is holding off in presenting them until DH. At least we
finally see a human side to Draco Malfoy and his mother (and Snape
quietly saving Dumbledore and Katie Bell and quite dramatically saving
Draco, but that's all undermined by his seeming treachery at the end
of HBP). I think that JKR is focusing her attention on these few
Slytherins that the reader knows (or suspects will play a role, in the
case of Regulus [RAB] Black) at the expense of all those other
characters, just as she focuses on HRH and a few DA members (chiefly
Neville, Ginny, and Luna) at the expense of the unnamed Ravenclaws and
Hufflepuffs who also stayed to fight. (I won't get back into the
discussion of the Slytherins who were forced to leave by McGonagall,
who assumed, perhaps wrongly, that Pansy Parkinson spoke for the whole
House. But, then, she was still under the mistaken impression that
Snape was a murderer at the time.)

But to get back to dear Lucius. I think you're being a bit too easy on
him. He's quite ready, unlike Draco, to turn Harry over to Voldemort
in "Malfoy Manor" and has nearly touched his Dark Mark to summon him
when Bellatrix knocks his hand away--not for any humane motive but
because she's desparately afraid of what LV will do if someone has
broken into the vault that holds Hufflepuff's cup.

And Lucius, the leader of the DEs in the MoM battle, tells the others,
 "Be gentle with Potter until we've got the Prophecy. You can kill the
others if necessary" (OoP Am. ed. 288). Doesn't sound to me as if he
has any scruples about killing (or using AK, which they would
presumably do). It's not quite as direct an order as Voldemort's "Kill
the spare!" but it's still condoning murder as a practical necessity.
All that matters to Lucius at that point is safely retrieving the
Prophecy. Even Harry can be killed once the Prophecy is in Lucius's
hands--no indication at this point that they should leave him to
Voldemort. And he's leading several known murderers in that gang,
including Antonin Dolohov, who murdered the Prewetts. Dolohov's wand
is pointed at Harry's face when Lucius tells him to hand over the
Prophecy, and Dolohov is leering. He'd love to kill the Prophecy Boy,
and Lucius would be happy to let him (799). His face is flushed with
pleasure (800).

When Neville tries to "Stubefy" the DEs, Lucius sneers, "It's
Longbottom, isn't it? Well, you grandmother is used to losing family
members in our cause. Your death will not come as a great shock"
(800). He says nothing when Bellatrix sadistically tortures Neville
for her own pleasure. He's interrupted by the entrance of the Order
members. Death Eaters are casting AKs. Whether Lucius is doing so or
not, we don't know. He attenmpts to fire an unknown spell at Harry and
Neville, but Lupin jumps between them. Then Harry drops the Prophecy,
Dumbledore appears, and the fight is over for Lucius. What he would
have done had those last two incidents not happened, we can't say, but
I don't think he would have hesitated to kill either an Order member
or a teenager if it meant getting the Prophecy. And he certainly would
have let one or more of the others kill them.

Carol, who thinks that if Lucius Malfoy is redeemed at all, it's
through his love for his son and his apparent renunciation of
Voldemort, which would not have happened if LV had not taken his wand
and abused and humiliated his family




From 12newmoons at gmail.com  Mon Feb  2 00:47:34 2009
From: 12newmoons at gmail.com (kneazlecat54)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 00:47:34 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm4kns+9h6o@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5fr6+k6su@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185593


> Shelley wrote:
> > Wait, who in Slytherin was "hated on sight"? Seems to me that
> Syltherin members, as Laura said, EARNS their reputation. 

> Carol responds:
>  
> Only four Slytherins that we know of are sons of Death Eaters (no 
DE's daughters are identified) <snip>. You can't assume that all 
Slytherins are DEs' children...<snip>

Laura says:

We don't know all of any of the houses.  I think the ones we do know 
are meant to be representative of the whole.







From juli17 at aol.com  Mon Feb  2 01:08:54 2009
From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 20:08:54 EST
Subject: Disarming spell/ Character's choices/Buffy!
Message-ID: <c32.48c3196f.36b7a1a6@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185594

 
liizzyben wrote:

She  says in
interviews that Snape wouldn't have cared what happened to Harry  at
all if he wasn't Lily's son. In the Prince's Tale, she pounds over  &
over that Snape does it for Lily, and only Lily. Narcissa  does
something good for Draco, and only Draco. Because they lack a soul  &
are therefore incapable of true selfishness or altruism. 

As  compared to, say, Harry, who chooses to die to save all humanity,
as Jesus  did. I think the comparison is stark and intentionally so. If
Harry is her  emblem of pure altruism (dying for all mankind), the
Slytherins are his  absolute antithesis (saving their own skins). JKR
never *wanted* to redeem  the Slytherins & is probably be puzzled by
fans' desire to do so.  

lizzyben



Julie:
I see your point. As an allegory, this set up works fine. The Gryffindors 
represent altruism at work, and the Slytherins represent selfishness at 
work (in general, as clearly not every individual act by the various  Gryffs 
and Slyths in the books support the allegory). But as a story where I  can
come to genuinely care about the characters and their fates, allegory 
doesn't work for me. I need them to be human, a mix of good and bad, 
not cardboard allegorical cutouts. JKR herself has said she gave all  her
characters faults so they would be human. It's a bit as if JKR was  trying
to have her cake and eat it too, by representing the two Houses in  this 
allegorical good vs bad, yet tossing out undeniable examples of how  this 
*isn't* true (Peter, whose every act is self-serving, Snape, who in his 
later years is not), not to mention dozens of smaller moments of  Gryffs
acting selfishly and (admittedly fewer) moments of Slyths acting for  the
benefit of others. 
 
Intellectually I understand JKR's intent with the allegorical aspects of  the 
story,
but emotionally I can't dismiss characters I care about as mere  allegorical
set pieces, not if I'm supposed to relate to them as real, complex,  *human*
characters. Slyths *can* be good, can act unselfishly and put  themselves
at risk for the benefit of others, even others they dislike. Gryffs *can*  act
merely to suit their own self-serving ends, throwing those in their way to  
the
wolves (so to speak), even those they call friends. And if even a  handful of
Slyths are redeemable (and in the case of 11 year old first years, I think  it
would be most of them) then to me it is wrong, even unconscionable to 
dismiss the whole House as irredeemable and wash your hands of them
(by ignoring them, ostracizing them, or any other method).
 
Julie, who also thinks Snape died to save all humanity (or the WW  world),
since he stuck around even after he knew Harry would die and continued  to
save those he could, when he could have hightailed it to save his own  skin.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
**************Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499. 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1217883258x1201191827/aol?redir=http://www.dell.com/co
ntent/products/features.aspx/laptops_great_deals?c=us%26cs=19%26l=en%26s=d
hs%26~ck=anavml)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  2 01:50:49 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 01:50:49 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm5fr6+k6su@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5jhp+7n0h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185595

Pippin:
<SNIP>
Snape certainly had good reasons to dislike Harry based on what he
knew of James. But his prejudice kept him from noticing any of the
ways in which Harry was not like James. Perfectly understandable, IMO,
but if we don't think that was okay, how can we think it's okay to
hate Slytherins? <SNIP>

Alla:


Maybe the analogy with deciding to hate James' son on the spot  works 
for you, but it certainly does not work for me.  Harry **met** Draco 
Malfoy his classmate and Draco Malfoy is the one based on whom he 
formed the opinion about Slytherin, well for the most part anyway. We 
also have Snape of course, who treated him so lovely during the first 
lesson.

There is also that matter that I do not think that Snape's hatred of 
James is completely justified either, but that is an aside.

Harry certainly formed an opinion of the whole house based on the few 
representatives of it and in real life I would say that he should 
check out other people before judging  whole house, except, where are 
those people exactly?

Where are the students who do not think and  do like Draco Malfoy 
does?  Yes, I know people argued about invisible Slytherins that 
exist and are good people ( the examples given were just name 
characters). To me they are not part of the story except being there 
in name only. To me author meant for me to form an opinion of the 
whole Slytherin student body based on selected few. 

Oh and I did not say that my friend's opinion was something I agreed 
with, just something I totally understood. 


Laura says:

We don't know all of any of the houses. I think the ones we do know
are meant to be representative of the whole.

Alla:

Totally totally agreed. And when JKR wanted us to see that really not 
all Gryffindors are brave and lovely, she showed Pettigrew to us, 
loud and clear.

I did not see anybody like that in the current Slytherin generation, 
I am sure they exist if it was real world and we saw heroic Slyths in 
DH. But even they initially ALL followed it, no?


If I do not see anybody in Slytherin house who not follows pureblood 
supremacy ideology, I assume they all do. Because as I am sure I 
mentioned it before, when character who is so so minor makes it clear 
that he shares it, I think it was done very deliberately (when he 
substitutes for Draco during Quidditch match in HBP. I even forgot 
his name and too lazy to look it up).

It is not right to generalize in RL based on selected few, 
understandable, but not right at all. In fiction however we often 
meant to, I think. And if we are not, author will let me know.

Again, even despite all the heroic Slyths I saw, for some reason I 
really did not feel that JKR pulled a rug about it on me. 

JMO,

Alla







From 12newmoons at gmail.com  Mon Feb  2 02:26:30 2009
From: 12newmoons at gmail.com (kneazlecat54)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 02:26:30 -0000
Subject: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm5ffj+nbg2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5lkm+s9sg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185596


> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie"
> <sistermagpie@> wrote:
> 
> > Isn't it Narcissa who says Draco can identify them in the first 
> > place?
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> Exactly. Narcissa was also the first to recognize Hermione (I'm sure
> Draco recognized her and Ron the moment he saw them, but he didn't 
say
> anything until he was specifically asked) and she seemed rather
> excited about it. I don't see any indication that she didn't want
> Draco to identify Harry.

Laura says:

That's not how I read the scene.  I think the subtext is that Draco 
has seen his father falling apart as Lucius is more and more pressured 
by LV.  He's always depended on his father to be his protector, and 
he's someone who can't stand up for himself, so he switches to his 
mother.  At this point, she sees that her family is in mortal danger, 
and she's not willing to take any chances that might put especially 
her son at further risk.  Draco has gotten the message and won't do 
anything overly risky.  Hermione and Ron are one thing, Harry is 
another.  So Draco refuses to identify Harry, then crosses the room 
and stands next to his mother, who drives the rest of the Malfoy 
family actions in the scene.
>






From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Mon Feb  2 03:26:17 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kempermentor)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 03:26:17 -0000
Subject: Narcissa / Divorce / Kill Or Not? / Returning With Slytherins?/ Myers-Briggs
In-Reply-To: <gm5aj7+ee46@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5p4p+3odr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185597

 
> Laura Kneazlecat54 wrote: 
> << JKR doesn't show us a single Slytherin who's a decent human being
> except for Slughorn, who has some pretty profound shortcomings, and
> maybe Snape, depending on how you feel about him. >>

> Catlady:
> Nitpick: Did she show us anything to indicate that Phineas Nigellus
> was not a decent human being, other than Sirius saying 'the most hated
> Headmaster Hogwarts ever had'? 

Kemper now:

Phineas refers to Hermione as 'The Mudblood' in The Prince's Tale
Snape cuts him off and commands, "Do not use that word!"  

Kemper




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  2 03:44:28 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 03:44:28 -0000
Subject: To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storyline/ Slytherins (LONG )
In-Reply-To: <gm59uu+st4h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5q6s+jeo8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185598

> Alla:
> Why can't the exit of the Slytherins be the event that IS of interest 
> to the author in her own right? And why can't their return be just 
> something secondary that she knows happened, but that she could care 
> less about in order to write about it clearly?
> 
<snip> 
> Why can't the exit of Slytherins for her be something that she cared 
> to show not for the sake of Slytherins as group, but for example  the 
> sake of Mcgonagall kicking them all out due to the actions of few? 
> Maybe she wanted us to reflect upon THAT first and foremost? Mind 
> you, I could care less about what Minerva did, I find it extremely 
> justifiable and necessary after Pantsy's act, but I can see how she 
> wanted to make a point that no, maybe what she did was not right at 
> all.

Montavilla47:
I think that you are correct in thinking that JKR was thinking of 
the Slytherins leaving as the important thing--and that the 
return was unimportant.  But I don't think that the importance of 
their leaving was that McGonagall threw out all the Slytherins based 
on the actions of a few.

Because, honestly, I doubt that we'd be reflecting on that at all,
if it weren't for a vocal minority of fans who felt that the Slytherins
needed to come back at the end (and that JKR didn't actually 
write them coming back).

I think that if it *were* important to JKR to highlight McGonagall's
prejudice in employing House profiling, then she needed to 
also highlight the folly in doing that in terms of her own story.  She
can't count on her readers to connect that to, say, the current 
enthusiasm for racial profiling and figure out that McGonagall was
being unfair. 

Again, if it weren't for the vocal minority, we'd simply read that
passage as McGonagall justly expelling the dangerous, traitorous,
racist element from the school.  

That they are allowed back in eventually could easily be 
explained by the secret contributions of Regulus and Snape, 
and Slughorn's return, and the realization that the Slytherins
are, like Peeves and the moldy hallways, something to be 
tolerated.  Why, some of them are even all right.







From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 03:49:59 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 03:49:59 -0000
Subject: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm5lkm+s9sg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5qh7+iup7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185599

 > zanooda:
> > 
> > Exactly. Narcissa was also the first to recognize Hermione (I'm 
sure
> > Draco recognized her and Ron the moment he saw them, but he 
didn't 
> say
> > anything until he was specifically asked) and she seemed rather
> > excited about it. I don't see any indication that she didn't want
> > Draco to identify Harry.
> 
> Laura says:
> 
> That's not how I read the scene.  I think the subtext is that Draco 
> has seen his father falling apart as Lucius is more and more 
pressured 
> by LV.  He's always depended on his father to be his protector, and 
> he's someone who can't stand up for himself, so he switches to his 
> mother.  At this point, she sees that her family is in mortal 
danger, 
> and she's not willing to take any chances that might put especially 
> her son at further risk.  Draco has gotten the message and won't do 
> anything overly risky.  Hermione and Ron are one thing, Harry is 
> another.  So Draco refuses to identify Harry, then crosses the room 
> and stands next to his mother, who drives the rest of the Malfoy 
> family actions in the scene.

Magpie:
But what risk are you saying she's telling him not to take? She is 
the one who puts him up as being identifying them all--which he 
certainly can do. If he IDs Harry it will be good for them. He's the 
one who won't identify any of them clearly and is reluctant. I don't 
have the scene in front of me, but I think what zanooda was referring 
to was that Narcissa is keeping *Lucius* from taking a risk by 
calling Voldemort without a clear ID, thus backing up Draco's 
inability to say for sure who they are. Isn't Narcissa actually 
encouraging of Draco to ID them? Isn't she the one who suggests that 
the girl is Hermione--the girl she remembers from the dress shop? 
Isn't she just looking to him for a clear confirmation if he can give 
her that, and then when he can't she doesn't want to risk calling LV?

-m




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Mon Feb  2 03:55:45 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 03:55:45 -0000
Subject: Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <gm5ct6+cup3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5qs1+qcql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185600

> Carol responds:
> 
>Unless he was generally known or called by that name, as Mad-eye was 
universally known and at least occasionally addressed by his, I 
wouldn't call it a nickname. (He did, however, answer to "Sev," at 
least when Lily used it. Possibly, his Slytherin friends used it, 
too.)
 
Marianne:

I always thought of "Sev" being Lily's own personal name for Snape, 
and nobody else used it. I thought the name was very sweet.
 
Carol:

I think we were just focusing on different scenes and using a 
different term for "Snivellus" because we regard it differently. (I 
find it a mark of Sirius Black's continued immaturity, frankly.)

Marianne:

Didn't Sirius once call Snape "Snivellus" in front of the entire OOTP 
people?  Now that's immature.  A grown man saying that.  I can't find 
the spot in the OOTP book.  I can't even find my book.





From sherriola at gmail.com  Mon Feb  2 04:05:03 2009
From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 20:05:03 -0800
Subject: character maturity?
In-Reply-To: <gm5qs1+qcql@eGroups.com>
References: <gm5ct6+cup3@eGroups.com> <gm5qs1+qcql@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <2744350402F3433CBF3F2BD2BA41AC27@Pensieve>

No: HPFGUIDX 185601

Carol:
I think we were just focusing on different scenes and using a different term
for "Snivellus" because we regard it differently. (I find it a mark of
Sirius Black's continued immaturity, frankly.)

Marianne:
Didn't Sirius once call Snape "Snivellus" in front of the entire OOTP
people?  Now that's immature.  A grown man saying that.  I can't find the
spot in the OOTP book.  I can't even find my book.



Sherry:
Snape isn't a model of maturity himself.  I don't consider it mature
behavior to hate a child and to be cruel to that child, simply because you
hated his father and loved his mother.  In fact, I think it's pretty darn
immature and ridiculous.  None of the older generation shows much sign of
maturity, and Snape is no better than any of the rest of them.

Sherry




From wildirishrose at fiber.net  Mon Feb  2 04:16:54 2009
From: wildirishrose at fiber.net (wildirishrose01us)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 04:16:54 -0000
Subject: Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <gm1piq+un6f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5s3n+eder@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185602

> 
> 
> Anne Squires:
> 
> Also there is  Nymphadora "Dora" Tonks, aka. "Tonks", Bellatrix
> "Bella" LeStrange, Narcissa "Sissy" Malfoy.  I also believe Hermione
> was called "Mione" a couple of times, not sure if that counts.  
> 
> Then, obviously  we have Tom Riddle aka. "Voldemort"  aka. "The Dark
> Lord"  aka. "He Who Must Not Be Named"  I suppose those are not really
> nicknames though, more like noms de guerre or pseudonyms.  There is a
> similar situation in regard to Harry's other names:  "The Boy Who
> Lived"  and "The Chosen One."
> 
> Anne Squires


Marianne:

Speaking of people that have nicknames.  I have two rats that are named 
Hermione and Bellatrix.  Mione and Bella for short.  Bella's original 
name was Ginny, but after she started using my fingers as her own 
personal chew toy I changed her name to Bellatrix.  She's fast and she 
has very sharp teeth that can take a good chunk out a person's finger.  
I thought Bella was a fitting name.

Marianne




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 04:22:43 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 04:22:43 -0000
Subject: To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storyline/ Slytherins (LONG )
In-Reply-To: <gm59uu+st4h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5sej+ac9a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185603

> Alla:
> 
> Okay, I reflected upon it. Now could we please for the sake of 
> argument accept the possibility of interpretation that those 
> returning students could be Slytherins? Of course I am not asking 
you 
> to agree with it, just to accept the possibility.
> 
> You did say somewhere upthread that you understand how those 
> returning students could be Slytherins, right? Because if you are 
> saying that you do not get how people could intepret it that way, I 
> really do not see what else to discuss here, you know?

Magpie:
Well, I get what the argument is. I actually don't get how anybody 
could read that group of students as being described as the returning 
Slytherins since it describes different people. I just get how people 
are adding them into the scene. It's more that nobody can prove that 
they're not there rather than anything in the text saying they are 
there. 

 
Alla:
> Now, here is my thing and tell me if this analogy works for you. 
> Would you say that exit and return (or NOT) of the Slytherins could 
> be analogized to author saying "the door was open", but instead of 
> saying "the door was closed", she would say something like - the 
wind 
> got stronger and touched the door, and maybe it looked like another 
> door in the house was closed. And then author will say in the 
> interview that in her mind door was definitely closed.
> 
> Would that work for you?

Magpie:
If she said Door A was open, and then later the narrator said the 
wind blew and shut Door B I would say that Door A was still open-- 
Especially if Door A had been characterized as notoriously stuck in 
an open position throughout the story, with many scenes focusing on 
that, including a recent dramatic one. ;-) That qualifier is 
important. It's not just two equal doors.

Alla:
> Because if it does work for you, I was thinking that sure, if we 
> consider door open and door closed as two parts of one event, then 
> sure  I accept if nothing else the charge of bad writing, again if 
> you accept JKR's intent as true.
> 
> And I can totally see how exit and return ( if it happened) of 
> Slytherins should be heard as two parts of the same event, etc.
> 
> I was almost ready to see it as one event myself. But is it though?
> 
> And here where to me the importance of the event for the author 
comes 
> in.

Magpie:
I wouldn't say anything about her intent one way or the other. That I 
would never be able to say. My instinct was to think she was 
misremembering her intent. But all I can judge is what she actually 
wrote.

Alla:
> 
> Why can't the exit of the Slytherins be the event that IS of 
interest 
> to the author in her own right? And why can't their return be just 
> something secondary that she knows happened, but that she could 
care 
> less about in order to write about it clearly?
> 
> Does that make sense? When Harry in OOP cries for Sirius at the 
lake, 
> did we really need for Harry to come back to the house in order to 
> accept that he IS indeed coming back?

Magpie:
It can be only of importance to the author, of course--but if she 
didn't write it than it doesn't exist for me. Harry's return from the 
lake doesn't need to be explained. It's like his going to the 
bathroom. And we see him at the school later--thus, he has returned 
from the lake. The Slytherins' return has none of that routine, and 
they're never mentioned again. I've no reason to think they could or 
would come back unless the narrator tells me they did. The narrator 
who has found the Slytherins important enough to track as a group 
many times before.

Alla: 
> Why can't the exit of Slytherins for her be something that she 
cared 
> to show not for the sake of Slytherins as group, but for example  
the 
> sake of Mcgonagall kicking them all out due to the actions of few? 
> Maybe she wanted us to reflect upon THAT first and foremost? Mind 
> you, I could care less about what Minerva did, I find it extremely 
> justifiable and necessary after Pantsy's act, but I can see how she 
> wanted to make a point that no, maybe what she did was not right at 
> all.

Magpie:
It's a pretty weak maybe since they don't come back. After all, it's 
not like Minerva accuses them all of being DEs and sends them to LV. 
She just gets them out of the school before the battle starts. She 
does that with some students she considers innocent too. It's a 
precaution to not have any of them there and according to the words 
on the page the battle was won without their help.

Alla: 
> So maybe with Minerva she wanted to emphacize something less than 
> glorious about Gryffindor again and with clear ( we do not dispute 
> that, right?) return of the Slugghorn she wanted to say something 
> about Slytherin as a group?

Magpie:
I don't think she says anything about Slytherin as a group when it's 
the group she doesn't mention. Slughorn didn't get kicked out. 
Minerva already trusted him and he is described specifically as 
returning.

Alla: 
> I don't know, as I said, I totally get what you are saying, but I 
do 
> not see how their exit and return (or non return) should 
necessarily 
> be of equal interest to the author, even if she wanted to say that 
> they did return?

Magpie:
It doesn't have to be of equal interest to her. But if it's not in 
the book then it doesn't exist for me as a reader. Of course, I 
believe that in the interview she referred to it as one of 
her "favorite moments"--the Slytherins returning, which would either 
indicate that she did think their return was important. Or maybe she 
was misremembering this favorite scene.

-m




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb  2 05:10:49 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 05:10:49 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm5jhp+7n0h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm5v8p+45hf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185604

 
> Alla:

> Harry certainly formed an opinion of the whole house based on the
few  representatives of it and in real life I would say that he should
 check out other people before judging  whole house, except, where are
 those people exactly?
> 
> Where are the students who do not think and  do like Draco Malfoy 
> does?

Pippin:
They stood up to honor Harry in GoF. They were willing to defy Draco
(and Voldemort) and trust Dumbledore.  The narrator remarks that
Dumbledore doesn't see the Slytherins who aren't standing -- which is
ironic, since Harry sees, but ignores, the ones who are. Like Snape,
he sees what he wants to see. 

> Alla:
> 
> Totally totally agreed. And when JKR wanted us to see that really
not  all Gryffindors are brave and lovely, she showed Pettigrew to us,
 loud and clear.
> 
> I did not see anybody like that in the current Slytherin generation,
 I am sure they exist if it was real world and we saw heroic Slyths in
 DH. But even they initially ALL followed it, no?

Pippin:
But it *is* a real world for Harry. And it is  not a world where there
are no Slytherins who supported Harry. We saw them. They are part of
the story just like the wizarding families who could have raised Harry
if Dumbledore hadn't placed him with the Dursleys. Dumbledore did not
follow that path, and so we don't know what might have happened, but
it's  important that he could have. 

You know, even with lottery tickets, where we can say for a fact that
most of them are losers, knowing that fact does not give us any
information, none at all, about a particular ticket. If we decide to
treat a ticket as a loser without checking to see whether it is or
not, that's prejudice. Certainly it  would be prudent not to risk very
much on the possibility that it's a winner. But Harry won't even speak
to Zabini , and what risk would there have been in that?

 Pettigrew was loyal to the Order until he realized what was expected
of him. Draco was loyal to the DE's the same way. Draco shows us that
people get sorted into Slytherin who are not capable of murder.
Slughorn never betrayed anyone. So why should Slytherins all be
treated as potential killers and traitors when Peter was not?

 Pettigrew betrayed his dearest friends and killed thirteen people.
Next to Voldemort, he's the deadliest and most treacherous wizard we
hear of. The Marauders exposed who knows how many people to a
werewolf, all in the name of the greater good of course. 

And Dumbledore...well! 

My point is, the Gryffindors  aren't any safer to be around just
because they're a bit nicer to Muggleborns. So the argument that it's
prudent to shun the Slytherins because they might be dangerous doesn't
hold a lot of water to me. Besides, Harry is suppose to be *brave*.

Alla:
> If I do not see anybody in Slytherin house who not follows pureblood
 supremacy ideology, I assume they all do.

Pippin:

Believing in the ideology or being influenced by it does not make them
killers. We saw that. So tell me again why it is so important that
they not be trusted? Blaise Zabini does not want to date a blood
traitor. Slughorn has diminished expectations for Muggleborns. Shame
on them. But does that make them scary? Does it mean they would betray
Hogwarts to a snake monster? 

Is it so much worse for Zabini to say he would never date Ginny
Weasley than for Hermione to say she's not going to date anyone with
four legs? Or that Harry shouldn't trust a werewolf? Or that
House-elves don't know what's good for them? Should she have had to
prove she's free of human supremacist ideology before she was allowed
to join the DA? 

I'm afraid if we won't trust people who are prejudiced, then we can't
trust anyone at all.  According to the Museum of Tolerance, we're all
prejudiced. Perhaps things are different in the Potterverse. But I
don't think so. 

Pippin






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb  2 05:49:45 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 05:49:45 -0000
Subject: To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storyline/ Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <gm5sej+ac9a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm61hp+18g4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185605

 
> Magpie:
> I don't think she says anything about Slytherin as a group when it's
 the group she doesn't mention. Slughorn didn't get kicked out. 
> Minerva already trusted him and he is described specifically as 
> returning.

Pippin:
She did *not* trust him.
"I shall expect you and the Slytherins in the Great Hall in twenty
minutes, also," said Professor McGonagall. "If you wish to leave with
your students, we shall not stop you. But if any of you attmept to
sabotage our resistance of take up arms against us with this castle,
then, Horace, we duel to kill." <snip> "The time has come for
Slytherin House to decide upon its loyalties."  

How exactly Minerva conceived Slytherin House would show its loyalty
by leaving the castle is hard to say. But that is the option Minerva
offers. Slughorn can hardly think that staying will demonstrate his
loyalty when Minerva has just said that any who stay will be suspected
of wanting to help Voldemort!
 
The Slytherins are grouped together with Slughorn here and expected to
act in concert with him. Slytherin House as a whole will decide on its
loyalties. Which it does, when Slughorn returns. The Slytherins who
stood to honor Harry in GoF were nameless and faceless. Harry never
bothered to find out who they were, so how would he, or the narrator,
identify them now?

Pippin





From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Mon Feb  2 07:21:33 2009
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 00:21:33 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
References: <gm5v8p+45hf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <F3EC959F3387419D8F4A860FC61CF7FD@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 185606


> Alla:
>> If I do not see anybody in Slytherin house who not follows pureblood
> supremacy ideology, I assume they all do.
>
> Pippin:
>
> Believing in the ideology or being influenced by it does not make them
> killers. We saw that. So tell me again why it is so important that
> they not be trusted? Blaise Zabini does not want to date a blood
> traitor. Slughorn has diminished expectations for Muggleborns. Shame
> on them. But does that make them scary? Does it mean they would betray
> Hogwarts to a snake monster?
>
> Is it so much worse for Zabini to say he would never date Ginny
> Weasley than for Hermione to say she's not going to date anyone with
> four legs? Or that Harry shouldn't trust a werewolf? Or that
> House-elves don't know what's good for them? Should she have had to
> prove she's free of human supremacist ideology before she was allowed
> to join the DA?
>
> I'm afraid if we won't trust people who are prejudiced, then we can't
> trust anyone at all.  According to the Museum of Tolerance, we're all
> prejudiced. Perhaps things are different in the Potterverse. But I
> don't think so.

Pippin, I hate to say this, but I see you arguing "ideology"- ie, we should 
not hate all Slytherins, we should not be prejudiced- BUT, we have to read 
the books as they were written. Like it or not, I think Alla's point is a 
valid one- I do not see one Slytherin (except Slughorn, who was not of 
Harry's generation) who was worth anything to brag about. Rowling painted a 
picture of that House- time and time again she sets us up as the reader to 
not trust the Syltherins, and through Harry's eyes, we don't trust them. 
Don't start to blame us for it if that is the message the books send, and 
that is the message that we recieve. It's not a matter of right or wrong 
(should prejudice exist or not), the fact that it does on both sides all 
throughout this story: (Syltherins hating Mudbloods and backing Voldemort to 
hunt down those who aren't pure; and the resulting prejudice toward the 
Slytherins from backing Voldemort from the first war). It is part of the 
story and the conflict that Rowling sets up for us to read. Granted, I think 
the story would have been more interesting if she had shown us a Syltherin 
or two whom Harry might like to have over for dinner some time, but she 
doesn't, and so that is the post-Voldemort world that Harry is saddled with: 
one filled with mistrust and for the Voldemort-backing Syltherins, 
acceptance of any kind is going to take a lot of time to achieve. I would 
have a hard time forgiving any Syltherin who backed Voldemort if any one of 
my family had been killed by them, a hard time forgiving anyone who wasn't 
fighting against Voldemort if that bloodshed had taken someone precious from 
me.  When Harry starts school, people were still mistrustful of the 
Syltherins from the first time around, and by the time he had finished 
school (or should have finished school), the Syltherins had backed Voldemort 
yet again to commit murder with their blessing. I really wish Rowling had 
given us just ONE Syltherin whom we could point to that fought against 
Voldemort, who spoke up for the Mudbloods and the oppressed, as an example 
that not all were like that, but Rowling doesn't, and because she doesn't, 
we simply have to assume that there wasn't one.

> Pippin:
>
> Believing in the ideology or being influenced by it does not make them 
> killers.

I know a lot has been said comparing this book to WW2 and Hilter, and I will 
do it again. Hilter murdered millions of Jews. There were Germans who backed 
his ideology, and by doing so, they also had Jew blood on their hands. You 
do not have to do the physical act of killing to be responsible for the 
deaths of millions. You just have give power or aid to the killer. By 
backing Hilter at all, the German people gave Hitler the power to murder. 
There is no doubt that if more of his own people spoke up against what he 
was doing, lives would have been spared. Yet, history does show us many 
Germans who did speak up, and try and do something about it- Germans who 
went to the concentration camps with the Jews for trying to protect them, 
Germans who tried in vain to assissinate Hitler to put a stop to the 
bloodshed and ideology gone wrong. Because we see Germans who tried to stop 
what went wrong, we do not blame all Germans for Hitler's mistakes. The 
history of Harry Potter, though, does not show Syltherins attempting to help 
murder Voldemort to end the bloodshed; we do not witness Syltherins hiding 
Mudbloods to spare their lives. So, by extention, we do blame all 
Syltherins, not having an example to see that this "one" or "two" were 
different. That's the story Rowling wrote, like it or not. As I said, I 
really wish she had given us that one or two special Syltherins who bravely 
fought Voldemort at great expense to their own safety- maybe that's what she 
tried to do with Snape, but failed.

Shelley 




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Feb  2 07:48:22 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 07:48:22 -0000
Subject: Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <gm5ct6+cup3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm68g6+avid@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185607

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Carol:
 > I though you were calling it an established "fact" at the time of the
> Hogwarts Express incident. As I see it, Sirius invented it at the
> first moment he encountered Severus and continued to use it to refer
> to "Snape" in conversation with James and the other Marauders, and at
> least once in public in SWM. Liking his "clever" invention, he
> retained it into adulthood and continued to use it when he addressed
> the adult Snape in OoP. (I can't recall whether he also used it in
> PoA.) Are we agreed on that much, at least? 
 
> IMO, it was not a universally used nickname (certainly the Slytherins
> didn't use it and Severus didn't answer to it. He had his own
> self-applied nickname, the Half-Blood Prince). 

Geoff:
Rhetorical question: "Does a nickname have to be universally applied?" 
My answer is "No".

Allow me to quote from personal experience. I grew up in the North of 
England, moving to London when I was nine and sporting a strong 
Lancashire accent.

At my grammar school, one or two pupils were unable to distinguish 
between a Northern accent and a Scottish one with the result that they 
started to call me "Scot", which was taken up by a few others - one 
friend continued to call me by this name into my late teens.

In 1954, my namesake Roger Bannister became the first guy to run a 
four minute mile so, to sports-minded acquaintances, I became "Roger". 
About the same time, the famous "Goon Show" radio programme had a 
character called "Minnie Bannister" so i also collected the nickname, 
usually abbreviated to "Min".

All these nicknames hung around throughout my schooldays with different 
groups of people using them - there was very little overlap and none of 
them were universally used. Does that mean that they were not nicknames? 
Not in my experience. 

So, I would suggest that "Snivellus" and "HBP" and any other unrevealed 
names were indeed nicknames. QED.






From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Mon Feb  2 07:53:18 2009
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 00:53:18 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
References: <gm3ndk+dtdv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <983E453E9F6A46518DBC2AC79AF6090E@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 185608

> Shelley:
>> Wait, who in Slytherin was "hated on sight"? Seems to me that Syltherin
>> members, as Laura said, EARNS their reputation. Draco, as the bully, 
>> earns
>> his own name. The kids being the sons and daughters of death eaters,
>> scowling at the Mudbloods, earns them the reputation. Sorry, but Rowling
>> doesn't show us one Syltherin who doesn't earn the reputation as a whole,
>> any single individual who defies the group to be a good person. I don't 
>> see
>> where even oneSyltherin was "hated on sight"- Rowling is clear to 
>> introduce
>> each of them "joining the gang" as it were, to earn the reputation.
>
> Montavilla47:
> There is a Slytherin (I think it's Malcolm Baddock) who is hissed by
> Fred and George as he is sorted into Slytherin.

A facts from the books: Fred and George are from an old Wizarding family. We 
see time and time again that Fred and George know far more than Harry about 
the other wizards simply because of who their dad is, his job, and other 
connections that Harry is yet unfamiliar with. They, unlike Harry, have a 
much better clue of the wizard families of importance and the alliegances 
they hold or did hold with the last war, attitudes toward purebloods and not 
so purebloods, etc. So, I took that passage to say that Fred and George knew 
something about that Syltherin that Harry didn't yet know, something that 
would have earned that student a hiss of disapproval. It's you who are 
assuming that this student was disliked "on sight", with no further 
knowledge about him in that context than he had just been sorted into 
Slytherin. Frankly, I haven't been given a reason to distrust Fred or 
George's instincts about people- they seem to be dead on. Either way, it's 
Rowling who writes this passage in such a way to say that if Fred and George 
don't like this individual, neither should we.

Shelley 




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Mon Feb  2 08:13:33 2009
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 01:13:33 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storyline/ Slytherins (LONG )
References: <gm59uu+st4h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4294617AC23946E5B5C25D7C7BD8D33A@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 185609

> Alla:
> Why can't the exit of the Slytherins be the event that IS of interest
> to the author in her own right? And why can't their return be just
> something secondary that she knows happened, but that she could care
> less about in order to write about it clearly?

Shelley:
I think it matters in the end- if Hogwarts is to return and have FOUR 
houses, and not just THREE, after the battle. If only three stood in defense 
of it, and the Syltherins fought with Voldmort to bring Hogwarts (and Harry 
Potter) down, they why would you invite them back into the school to be 
students? Why wouldn't the alliance of the four houses be broken permanently 
with that battle? It matters in the end if some of the Syltherins did come 
back, so that you can't blame the entire house when it's clear (or would 
have been clear, if Rowling had written it that way) that some Syltherins 
chose Voldemort, but others chose Hogwarts and Harry instead. It makes a 
world of difference to me on the redemtion end, the healing end, the post 
war end, where the school would have to come together again as a group to 
function.

If you are saying that it mattered to Rowling if she showed the Slytherins 
leaving, but it slipped her mind to say that some returned to fight with 
Harry, then to me, that shows a huge mistake of just assuming that the 
readership will be all together with her to say "no hard feelings about 
Syltherin or Snape, or anything that happened- all's well 17 years later". 
She's taking a huge leap with that in the Epilogue, and she makes it even 
greater by not identifying even one Syltherin (Slughorn was teacher and had 
a duty to defend the school) who chose to be there by choice.I guess this is 
why this last book is my least favorite- she just says "all's well", but she 
doesn't show us that "all's well", as she does all throughout the series 
with other things.






From leahstill at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  2 11:31:44 2009
From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:31:44 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <F3EC959F3387419D8F4A860FC61CF7FD@homemain>
Message-ID: <gm6lj0+s57i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185610

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "k12listmomma" 
<k12listmomma at ...> wrote:
> The 
> history of Harry Potter, though, does not show Syltherins 
attempting to help 
> murder Voldemort to end the bloodshed; we do not witness 
Syltherins hiding 
> Mudbloods to spare their lives. So, by extention, we do blame all 
> Syltherins, not having an example to see that this "one" or "two" 
were 
> different. That's the story Rowling wrote, like it or not. As I 
said, I 
> really wish she had given us that one or two special Syltherins 
who bravely 
> fought Voldemort at great expense to their own safety- maybe 
that's what she 
> tried to do with Snape, but failed.
> 
> Shelley
>

Leah:

Why do you think she failed with Snape?  He was working for 
Dumbledore and obeying Dumbledore's orders. Dumbledore knew 
Voldemort could not be assassinated until his Horcruxes were 
destroyed so there was no point in ordering Snape or anyone else to 
kill him until that was done.  Snape was an Order member whose job 
it was (given to him by Dumbledore) to spy on Voldemort. That 
necessarily involved not openly fighting him. Dumbledore said that 
Snape acted for the Order at great personal risk.  The personal 
expense to Snape was his death in the Shrieking Shack, continuing to 
lie to and occlude against Voldemort so that he went into battle 
against the true master of the Elder Wand. 

What about Slughorn? Wasn't fighting Voldemort at the Battle of 
Hogwarts brave and didn't it put Slughorn at personal risk?

As to hiding Mudbloods, we know that Snape said he had saved all 
that he could. We don't know exactly what he meant by this, but if 
he was saving people whom he could have watched die, I would assume 
that involved people targeted by the Death Eaters, and that probably 
included Muggleborns.  We don't know how Snape saved these people, 
but I see no reason to doubt his word that he did.  One assumes that 
too involved a fair amount of personal risk.

And how many people from *any* House do we see actually fighting 
Voldemort? The Death Eaters in the first 'war' and at the beginning 
of the second act more like a terrorist organisation -pretty hard to 
fight openly.  We hear that the the Aurors under Barty Crouch Snr 
acted against the Death Eaters. We don't know what House Barty was 
in, we don't know the identity, let alone the Houses of most of the 
Aurors.  We do know that the Order fought against Voldemort. But the 
Order was itself a paramilitary organisation, whose membership 
appeared to be selected by Dumbledore. Do we know if he invited any 
Slytherins (apart from Snape) to join?.  Do we know if he didn't? - 
we don't know the House affiliation of all the members.  It looks 
really as if a fairly small proportion of the population were 
involved on either side.  And few people seem to have known that 
Voldemort was Tom Riddle ex-Slytherin, so why should the majority of 
Slytherins feel they had special obligation to deal with him?

Leah   






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Feb  2 13:24:09 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 13:24:09 -0000
Subject: Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <gm68g6+avid@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm6s5p+uiu6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185611

 
> Geoff:
> 
> So, I would suggest that "Snivellus" and "HBP" and any other 
unrevealed 
> names were indeed nicknames. QED.

Potioncat:
The question that started this thread was "Were nicknames used in the 
WW?"

In old movies kids used to have nicknames like Stinky, Shorty, Fatso.--
Fat Albert. Much as I hate it, Snivellus was was the nickname used by 
Sirius for Severus. After years of use, I'd say it was a nickname. It's 
the kind of nickname that a resonable adult would put a stop to...but 
smart kids wouldn't use it in front of adults and the kids in question 
never became adults. 







From danjerri at madisoncounty.net  Mon Feb  2 13:57:33 2009
From: danjerri at madisoncounty.net (Jerri&Dan Chase)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 07:57:33 -0600
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <1233575588.2293.52304.m46@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1233575588.2293.52304.m46@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <349ABD74D7A84A08A0BEDFF69BF653CA@JerriPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 185612

>I really wish Rowling had
> given us just ONE Syltherin whom we could point to that fought against
> Voldemort, who spoke up for the Mudbloods and the oppressed, as an example
> that not all were like that, but Rowling doesn't, and because she doesn't,
> we simply have to assume that there wasn't one.
> Shelley

What about Tonks' mother?  A Black by birth, and every Black save Sirius was 
in Syltherin.  She married a muggle born wizard, raised Tonks to be what she 
was, allowed her house to be used as a safe house for Harry in the Seven 
Potters.  She wasn't fighting in the final battle, but someone had to be 
taking care of Teddie as both his parents were at the battle.  She lost 
husband and daughter, yet stayed on good enough terms with Harry and such 
that her grandson who she raised was friendly with them.

I wish we had seen and heard more about her, but the evidence points 
strongly to her being a Syltherin and she was fighting against Voldemort, if 
not in person, certainly indirectly, but importantly.

Jerri





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 16:50:12 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 16:50:12 -0000
Subject: To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storyline/ Slytherins
In-Reply-To: <gm61hp+18g4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm7884+v41n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185613

Pippin: 
> The Slytherins are grouped together with Slughorn here and expected to
> act in concert with him. Slytherin House as a whole will decide on its
> loyalties. Which it does, when Slughorn returns. The Slytherins who
> stood to honor Harry in GoF were nameless and faceless. Harry never
> bothered to find out who they were, so how would he, or the narrator,
> identify them now?

Magpie:
But Slughorn has already been singled out as one of the different 
Slytherins--one that is still associated with its Pureblood ideology, 
but who has loved a Gryffindor and so has a main loyalty to her (though 
he always needs a little push to stick his neck out). (He's not 
expected to act in concert with them, necessarily.) I don't see how the 
description of some Slytherins not specifically showing they're against 
Harry in GoF matters much in the end. Certainly not to the extent that 
I'm shocked they didn't return to fight for him in DH. I'm not 
surprised he didn't specifically find out who they were. There is no 
story where they actually stood against Voldemort or trusted 
Dumbledore. They didn't necessarily join Voldemort, but I've no reason 
to think they did much of note otherwise. 

You make a distinction elsewhere between believing in an ideology and 
being killers--but I don't see where everyone has ignored that 
distinction. Slytherin has not been presented as a House full of 
killers. There's other negative qualities they have too. Maybe it's a 
shame that Harry never reached out to them or tried to make them 
allies. But it's not surprising he didn't. And they didn't reach out to 
him either, or do much else to disassociate themselves from their bad 
reputation. In the end they didn't seem needed for victory. The ones 
who acted for the other side did so because they loved somebody. It's a 
consistent saving grace, imo. 

-m




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb  2 17:10:58 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:10:58 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <F3EC959F3387419D8F4A860FC61CF7FD@homemain>
Message-ID: <gm79f2+6i02@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185614

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "k12listmomma"
<k12listmomma at ...> wrote:

> Pippin, I hate to say this, but I see you arguing "ideology"- ie, we
should  not hate all Slytherins, we should not be prejudiced- BUT, we
have to read  the books as they were written. 

Pippin:
Let me clarify. I  think the *characters* should question their
prejudice against Slytherins, and the rhetorical questions I've
snipped are directed at the characters' attitudes. I'm asking whether
*their* actions are justified.

I am not trying to be judgmental of any reader's feelings -- your
reaction to the book is your reaction, and it's not right or wrong.

 I agree that the books are almost guaranteed to incite anti-Slytherin
feeling in the readers. The question is, to what end?

Many of us thought that much of DH would involve Harry discovering his
prejudice against Slytherin and struggling to overcome it. That he
*should* overcome it was a matter of faith (or ideology, if you
prefer), and some of us hoped to see that faith, sorely tried by
Dumbledore's murder, fulfilled.  

But it turned out to be a very minor matter. The book is much more
concerned with Harry's feelings about Dumbledore. Harry spends a lot
of time trying to sort out how much of what he'd  always believed
about him was true, and how much was propaganda and stereotypes.   I
don't think I've heard many readers claim that this struggle was
poorly written.

Some people were disappointed, even if they believe that Harry did
overcome some of his prejudice towards Slytherin, not to see more of
that struggle in the book. They felt that JKR failed in some way by
not depicting it. 

But I don't think JKR's purpose was to depict Harry struggling  to
make sense of Slytherin and decide what attitude towards them was
appropriate.  I think she left that ambiguous on purpose.

I think she wanted us to  learn, not through Harry's attempt to make
sense of the Slytherins but through our own. The process would have to
be the same one that Harry went through with Dumbledore, deciding how
much of what we think about Slytherin is true, and how much we have
derived from propaganda and stereotypes. Of course JKR created the
propaganda and referenced the stereotypes, but that doesn't mean, IMO,
that she wanted us to swallow them whole. 


Of course the book is designed to give us a negative view of
Slytherins and to create a stereotypical view of their behavior. 

But was that so we can have some characters we can feel good about
despising, or was it so we can experience firsthand how prejudice
develops  and how stereotypes affect our interpretation of what we
see? Or was it both, like the illustration that shows either a young
woman or an old one? It's almost impossible to perceive both at once,
but neither interpretation is wrong in the sense that the drawing was
not intentionally designed to be seen that way. 

What we decide, or whether we want to play this game at all, or
whether this is a sensible way to write a book, is entirely up to us
as readers. Again, I'm not saying this is how anyone is supposed to
read the book. I don't think many children are capable of thinking
this way, but let me make clear that I'm not saying this is the mature
way to read the book either. 

It's just how I read it. Just because JKR gives the reader reasons to
*feel* that the Slytherins are all bad, or mostly bad, doesn't mean
that is how she wants the reader to *think.*

Shelley:
 I really wish Rowling had  given us just ONE Syltherin whom we could
point to that fought against Voldemort, who spoke up for the Mudbloods
and the oppressed, as an example  that not all were like that, but
Rowling doesn't, and because she doesn't,  we simply have to assume
that there wasn't one.

Pippin:
She gives us loads of examples, IMO, it's just that some readers keep
finding reasons not to count them. 

For example, Regulus doesn't count because he's not a current student.
Draco doesn't count because he didn't renounce blood-ism.  Slughorn
doesn't count because he's snobbish. Narcissa doesn't count because
she was selfish. Andromeda doesn't count because Harry never
explicitly thinks of her as a Slytherin. Snape doesn't count because
he might have been a Gryffindor if he'd been sorted later in life. (So
might many others.) 

And yet they all risked their lives to defy Voldemort and they all
helped to save innocent lives. If they'd done as much against the
Nazis, IMO they'd have memorials at Vad Yashem. 

Pippin






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  2 17:58:16 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:58:16 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm5jhp+7n0h@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm7c7o+asap@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185615

Alla:
 
> Maybe the analogy with deciding to hate James' son on the spot 
works for you, but it certainly does not work for me.  Harry **met**
Draco Malfoy his classmate and Draco Malfoy is the one based on whom
he formed the opinion about Slytherin, well for the most part anyway.
We also have Snape of course, who treated him so lovely during the
first lesson.
> 
> There is also that matter that I do not think that Snape's hatred of
James is completely justified either, but that is an aside.

Carol responds:

Oh, dear. We're never going to agree on this. However, Harry's first
encounter with Draco--not when Draco insulted Ron, which certainly
gave Harry good reason to judge Draco as not "the right sort"--was in
Madam Malkin's and perhaps gives us a better idea of Draco's normal
behavior and attitudes, but there's no instant animosity. Harry senses
that Draco is spoiled (talking about "bullying Father" into buying him
a broom) and somewhat prejudiced against "the other kind" of witches
and witches (presumably Muggle0borns, a term that Harry hasn't heard
yt), but Draco doesn't directly attack him or insult him, in direct
contrast to James, who first insults Severus's choice of House. "Who'd
want to be in Slytherin, I'd go home, wouldn't you?" echoes Draco's
words about Hufflepuff, only Draco's words are a casual aside to a boy
he assumes already knows about the House system, not an insult
injected into a conversation he's not part of. James ends up tripping
Severus and adopting Sirius's repulsive epithet for Severus,
Snivellus. Draco, in contrast, attempts to become friends with Harry,
admittedly because Harry is famous, but it's Harry who begins the
mutual antagonism by rejecting Draco's offer of friendship. (I'm not
questioning his reasons for doing so; I'm merely contrasting Draco's
behavior with James's. Harry chooses to reject Draco's offer of
friendship; Severus has no choice but to regard James as the enemy
he's shown himself to be from Day One.

Setting aside James's motives for rescuing Severus from
Werewolf!Remus, an incident we don't know nearly enough about, they
don't change his attitude and behavior one iota. He and Sirius are
quite happy to attack Snivellus two on one when he's off his guard and
publicly humiliate him, using his own spell against him. Worst of all
is James's last remark, "Who wants to see me take off his underwear?"

I'd say that Snape has plenty of reason to hate James, whom even
Sirius calls an "arrogant berk" (along with himself). He even tells
James in SWM that Lily apparently thinks he has a big head (thinks too
much of himself), whereupon James takes out his anger on Severus. And
we also know that Snape's view of James and his friends as
rule-breakers was fully justified (more than he knew given the
midnight runs with a werewolf and the illegal Animagus forms), as was
his view of James as a bully (Lily says that he hexed people who
annoyed him in the hallways and we see in HBP that one of his many
detentions was for a spell that doubled the size of someone's head).

I see nothing to like about James and everything to detest from Lily's
perspective. (Why she was attracted to him despite that, I don't
know.) And I see everything to hate from Severus's. Granted, it's
wrong to visit the sins of the father upon the son and judge Harry as
if he were James Redivivus, but Snape's hating James is perfectly
justified, as Harry realizes even the first time he sees that memory
in the Pensieve.

To return to Harry and Slytherin, Harry has already been told that
*every* witch or wizard who went bad came from Slytherin, which we
know to be false, and Percy has told him that Snape favors the
Slytherins and is after Quirrell's job. Harry thinks that his scar
hurt because Snape looked at him, and before he even has a class with
Snape, he has a dream in which Snape, Draco, and Voldemort are all
associated in his mind (and Quirrell's turban is mixed up with the
Sorting Hat, which thought he would do well in Slytherin). The stage
is set for Harry to interpret Snape's interrogation in the worst
possible way, to see Slytherin in the worst possible light,
inseparable from Voldemort, and (later) to see Snape as trying to
steal the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone. 

I'm not blaming Harry; I'm just saying that he quite quickly picks up
the Gryffindor prejudice against Slytherin and never questions it
until after "The Prince's Tale." Even learning about Regulus doesn't
alter his thinking or open his mind.

Severus's hatred of James, and of Sirius, who goes along with him and
later turns more actively against his parents' House, is, in contrast,
completely justified, based not on his perception of Gryffindor as the
House of "brawn" but on James's own behavior but as an eleven0year-old
who perhaps doesn't know any better and as a sixteen-year-old (the
book says fifteen, but that conflicts with his birthdate in DH) who
should and probably does know better but is used to breaking the rules
and hexing people who annoy him and is immune to the deterrent effect
of detentions.

Alla:
> 
> Harry certainly formed an opinion of the whole house based on the
few representatives of it and in real life I would say that he should
check out other people before judging  whole house, except, where are
those people exactly?

Carol responds:

Good question. We have the names of a few Slytherins who never do
anything bad that we know of (Daphne Greengrass, for example), but we
see only the Slytherins that Harry knows and hates. JKR is saving her
handful of "good Slytherins" (with the partial exception of Slughorn)
until DH. It doesn't help Harry's perspective, or the reader's, that
all the children of Death Eaters seem to be in Harry's year.

An aside here: I've already listed the names of some of the other
Slytherin students, not one of which matches up with a Death Eaters'
name, but I'll add that not a single Slytherin student, including some
of the bullies on the Slytherin Quidditch team, matches up with the
name of a Death Eater. The Death Eaters we know of other thn Malfoy,
Crabbe, Goyle, and Nott, appear to be childless. We know, for example,
that Bellatrix and Rodolphus are childless as is Yaxley (who says
something about being unmarried). Many of them spent fourteen years in
Azkaban; surely, if those DEs had children, Hermione, at least, would
know their names (Oh! There's a Dolohov in fourth year!) but we never
hear about them. It seems to me that Harry's perspective is distorted
by three of the four Death Eaters' sons that he knows as well as by
the pervading anti-Slytherin prejudice among the Gryffindors. Of
course, their perspective is equally distorted by an anti-Gryffindor
prejudice, as we see with Blaise Zabini, who is admittedly a
Pure-Blood supremacist but has no ambition to be a Death Eater. (BTW,
I wonder why Theodore Nott and the other Slytherin girls weren't in
the Slytherin compartment. Was Theo with the four girls?)

Alla: 
> Where are the students who do not think and  do like Draco Malfoy 
does?  Yes, I know people argued about invisible Slytherins that exist
and are good people ( the examples given were just name characters).
To me they are not part of the story except being there in name only.
To me author meant for me to form an opinion of the whole Slytherin
student body based on selected few. 

Carol responds:
I think it's telling that neither Theodore Nott nor Blaise Zabini (nor
Daphne Greengrass, for that matter) became part of Umbridge's
Inquisitorial Squad. There's a core group of Slytherins, all in
Harry's year, including Draco, Crabbe, Goyle, Pansy, and Millicent
Bulstrode, who have that bully mentality. Of that group, only Crabbe
and Goyle are named as liking to Crucio other students, and only
Crabbe becomes a full-fledged Voldemort supporter. (Pansy is only
being a self-serving coward, wanting to save her own skin and possibly
those of her friends by turning Harry over to Voldemort. She's not
saying that they should join Voldemort to fight against the school.
Draco, of course, learns the hard way that his father's path is not
for him. He becomes a DE and regrets his mistake.)

But, as I said earlier, JKR wants us to see all the Slytherins in the
same light, as Harry does, throughout the earlier books so that she
can spring her surprises on the reader in DH.(I do wish that she'd let
use see Theo or Blaise fighting for Hogwarts against Voldemort, but
you can't have everything. At least we have Snape, Slughorn, and
Regulus as indisputable heroes and the humbled and humiliated Malfoys
choosing neutrality.)

BTW, JKR shows us exceptions to the general rule not only among
Slytherins but among Giants (Grawp), werewolves (Lupin), and Centaurs
(Firenze--and later, Magorian, Ronan, and even Bane, the most
anti-human of the group). She seems to be saying that with proper
direction and education, ingrained group traits, including violence
and prejudice, can be overcome.

Another aside: It seems to me that several things will have changed at
Hogwarts in the time that Harry's and Ron's children attend, aside
from a new headmaster/mistress other than the anti-Slytherin
McGonagall and a portrait of Snape in the headmaster's office. The
DADA class will no longer be cursed, so they'll have an effectual and
permanent teacher. Possibly, the new headmaster will care a bit more
about actually educating the students than Dumbledore did, Imagine
forcing Binns into retirement so that the students can get a fair and
accurate view of WW history--including the Slytherin contribution to
the fight against Voldemort--rather than a constant droning on about
Goblin (and occasinonally Giant) wars. And Voldemort had one excellent
idea: making Muggle Studies mandatory. Granted, his approach (and
Alecto Carrow's) was exactly backwards. But mandatory Muggle Studies
emphasizing Muggle cleverness and accomplishments (not just
"eckeltricity" and wiring diagrams but literature and music and art
and architecture and inventions and science, ad infinitum) as opposed
to Muggle "inferiority" would do a great deal to reduce anti-Muggle
and anti-"Mudblood" prejudice. (Slytherin passwords could also be
monitored to make sure that words like "Pure-Blood" weren't used.)
Prejudice isn't inborn. It has to be taught, and Hogwarts is the place
to undo it. 

Meanwhile, there's no Voldemort to recruit the Slytherins or anyone
else tempted to become bullies or wield power over Muggles and
Muggle-borns, and as far as we know, there are no more children of
Death Eaters at Hogwarts. Slytherin is free to produce, not followers
of Tom Riddle, as it did fifty years ago, or would-be Death Eaters as
in did in Severus's or Harry's time, but people like Horace Slughorn,
only mildly prejudiced and able to overcome it--and Regulus if he
hadn't been drawn into the Death Eaters or Severus if he'd been
Sorted, willy nilly, into Gryffindor (without having first encoutered
James). If the Sorting Hat drops blood as a criterion for Sorting and
allows Muggle-borns in, Sorting for ambition instead, the average
Slytherin would probably be a Half-Blood clone of Percy. And people
like Crabbe and Goyle would find themselves Sorted into Hufflepuff.

Carol, who thinks that judging a whole House based on the sons of
Death Eaters and a few other bullies is exactly like judging all black
people based on drug-dealing gang members in a Chicago slum




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  2 18:07:06 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 18:07:06 -0000
Subject: Narcissa / Divorce / Kill Or Not? / Returning With Slytherins?/ Myers-Briggs
In-Reply-To: <gm5p4p+3odr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm7coa+ud03@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185616

Catlady:
> > Nitpick: Did she show us anything to indicate that Phineas
Nigellus was not a decent human being, other than Sirius saying 'the
most hated Headmaster Hogwarts ever had'? 
> 
Kemper replied:
> 
> Phineas refers to Hermione as 'The Mudblood' in The Prince's Tale
Snape cuts him off and commands, "Do not use that word!"  

Carol responds:

Maybe Phineas Nigellus is just the product of his own generation and
upbringing. He reminds me of people in the South who routinely used
the "N" word, refined to "Nigra" by about the 1950s, because it was
the word they had been taught.

Phineas Nigellus is without question a Pure-Blood snob, insulting
Mundungus as something like a "filthy Half-blood" (which may indicate
that he doesn't know Snape's blood status), but he loves his
"worthless" great-great-grandson and is genuinely distressed to hear
that he's dead, and he submits to Snape's reprimand quite meekly and
serves him eagerly, knowing that he's helping Harry and Portrait!DD
against Voldemort.

Carol, who likes snide, wily old Phineas, especially his remarks to
Harry about teenagers thinking that they alone have suffered




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  2 18:18:55 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 18:18:55 -0000
Subject: To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storyline/ Slytherins (LONG )
In-Reply-To: <gm5q6s+jeo8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm7def+10p6r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185617

Montavilla47 wrote:
> <snip>
> Because, honestly, I doubt that we'd be reflecting on that at all,
if it weren't for a vocal minority of fans who felt that the
Slytherins needed to come back at the end (and that JKR didn't
actually write them coming back).
<snip>
> 
> Again, if it weren't for the vocal minority, we'd simply read that
passage as McGonagall justly expelling the dangerous, traitorous,
racist element from the school.  

Carol responds:

Maybe you'd read it that way, but without ever having read anyone
else's reaction, I was appalled by McGonagall's behavior (much as I'd
been appalled by her calling Harry's Crucio gallant and following it
up with an Imperius of her own). Even though not one slytherin
supports Pansy, Mcgonagall dismisses the whole lot of them on the
assumption that they're dangerous, having already informed slughorn
that she would kill any Slytherin student who fought for Voldemort.
That some of the Slytherins might actually want to support Hogwarts
never enters her mind. *She* sees them all as "dangerous" and
"traitorous" (I'm not sure that "racist" enters into the equation
since McGonagall has never expressed a view one way or another on
Pure-blood supremacy, which, in any case, is not race). The reader,
however, does not necessarily share her views (which, IMO, are shaped
by her belief that Headmaster Snape is a murderer and therefore the
students who admire him or were Sorted into the same House are
potential murderers).

Carol, who thinks that a "vocal minority" has nothing to do with it
and suspects that *many* readers on their own were appalled by
McGonagall's "Housist" assumptions




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  2 18:50:59 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 18:50:59 -0000
Subject: Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <gm68g6+avid@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm7faj+j78p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185618

Geoff:
> So, I would suggest that "Snivellus" and "HBP" and any other
unrevealed names were indeed nicknames. QED.

Carol:

Not QED. Just IYO (in your opinion). But it appears that the only
point we now disagree on is whether "Snivellus," used by just two
people to our knowledge, constitutes a nickname. It's more like the
opposite of a pet name. Real-life example: suppose that a young mother
addressed her spiky-haired baby boy as "Fraggle." Does that make
"Fraggle" his nickname? No one else used it and he never answered to
it. (she stopped using it when he was about two, possibly to avoid
confusing the poor child.)

At any rate, in your opinion, "Snivellus" is a nickname. In mine, it's
just a nasty epithet used by two bullies. Harry defines "nickname" as
"what my friends call me," to which Snape, not questioning that
definition, responds, "I know what a nickname is." By that definition,
which I also take to be JKR's own, Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and
Prongs would be nicknames, acknowledged and answered to and even used
by their owners as makers of the Marauder's Map. Severus Snape,
however, did not himself use "Snivellus" nor respond to it nor
acknowledge it in any way. (He referred to *himself* as the Half-Blood
Prince, but unless his friends called him, say, "Prince" (or "the
Prince in conversation, as Harry did), that wouldn't have been a
nickname, either, more of a self-selected epithet.

For the record, here's the definition of "epithet" from
Merriam-Webster Online:

1 a: a characterizing word or phrase accompanying or occurring in
place of the name of a person or thing b: a disparaging or abusive
word or phrase

So "Half-Blood Prince" is an epithet in sense one and "Snivellus" is
an epithet in sense two.

Carol, who would have dropped the point had it not been for "QED"




From juli17 at aol.com  Mon Feb  2 19:42:19 2009
From: juli17 at aol.com (julie)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 19:42:19 -0000
Subject: To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storyline/ Slytherins (LONG )
In-Reply-To: <gm5q6s+jeo8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm7iar+9h4j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185619

Montavilla47 wrote:
> 
> Again, if it weren't for the vocal minority, we'd simply read that
> passage as McGonagall justly expelling the dangerous, traitorous,
> racist element from the school.  
> 
> That they are allowed back in eventually could easily be 
> explained by the secret contributions of Regulus and Snape, 
> and Slughorn's return, and the realization that the Slytherins
> are, like Peeves and the moldy hallways, something to be 
> tolerated.  Why, some of them are even all right.
>

Julie:
Just curious, but how do you know it is a "vocal minority"
that noticed or felt a lack of resolution or redemption of
the Slytherins after reading the books? This list itself is
a very tiny minority of readers, and I'm not sure I could
assert that a minority on *this* list read the passage as
McGonagall justly expelling the entirety of Slytherin House
as a dangerous, traitorous, racist element. 

In fact, in an interview JKR was asked why no Slytherins 
came back to fight, and she replied "But of course they did."
This indicates to me that not only a few readers on this 
list were left wondering about the Slytherins and the lack
of definite resolution to their story in the books. Whether
it adds up to a minority or a majority I don't know--and I
don't know how we really would without a survey on the 
subject representing a cross-section of all HP readers.

Julie, who would find such a survey of general readers'
interpretations and feelings about different aspects of
the HP books very interesting, and no doubt illuminating
to read, whatever it revealed.






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  2 20:13:30 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:13:30 -0000
Subject: Narcissa / Divorce / Kill Or Not? / Returning With Slytherins?/ Myers-Briggs
In-Reply-To: <gm7coa+ud03@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm7k5a+fj09@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185620

> Kemper replied:
> > 
> > Phineas refers to Hermione as 'The Mudblood' in The Prince's Tale
> Snape cuts him off and commands, "Do not use that word!"  
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Maybe Phineas Nigellus is just the product of his own generation and
> upbringing. He reminds me of people in the South who routinely used
> the "N" word, refined to "Nigra" by about the 1950s, because it was
> the word they had been taught.

Magpie:
I've heard that argument more than once for Phineas, but there's no 
indication that "Mudblood" was ever anything but a slur, or that it 
used to be more common than it is now in the WW, which is not a 
metaphor for any one place.

I would think somebody using the n-word because that's what they were 
taught was taught that a race of people were inferior and accepted 
that teaching as the truth. That would make Phineas no different than 
any other non-Muggleborn who used the term. I would guess 
that "Muggle-born" was already in use by his time, and I can't 
believe he thought a word that referred to their blood as being mud 
wouldn't know exactly what kind of put-down it was. The fact that he 
also says "filthy Half-blood" seems to imply he still associates 
Muggle-tainted blood as dirty, even if he doesn't care to argue about 
it with Snape. Given the rest of the themes of the book "Pure-Blood 
snob" is tied to some truly sinister bigotry.

I think he's simply wiley, amusing, clever and a bigot.

-m 




From bruce_alan_wilson at verizon.net  Mon Feb  2 03:37:52 2009
From: bruce_alan_wilson at verizon.net (BRUCE WILSON)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:37:52 -0500
Subject: Narcissa / Divorce / Kill Or Not? / Returning With Slytherins?/
Message-ID: <32795FAF924E4AB0B5A7DE51603C98A5@d600xpp>

No: HPFGUIDX 185621

Anent Phineas/Mudblood:

Perhaps in Phineas' time the word was less offensive than it is now.

My grandmother used to talk about 'colored folks'; my parents would sometimes talk about 'Negroes'.  None of them were really especially racist--it was simply habit.  Perhaps the term 'Mudblood' has undergone a simialar evolution in the WW.

Bruce






From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Mon Feb  2 21:38:20 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kempermentor)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 21:38:20 -0000
Subject: Narcissa / Divorce / Kill Or Not? / Returning With Slytherins?/ Myers-Briggs
In-Reply-To: <gm7k5a+fj09@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm7p4c+t9k4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185622


> > Kemper earlier:
> > Phineas refers to Hermione as 'The Mudblood' in The Prince's Tale
> > Snape cuts him off and commands, "Do not use that word!"  
 
> > Carol responded:
> > Maybe Phineas Nigellus is just the product of his own generation
and upbringing. He reminds me of people in the South who routinely
used the "N" word, refined to "Nigra" by about the 1950s, because it
was the word they had been taught.

> Magpie countered:
> I've heard that argument more than once for Phineas, but there's no 
> indication that "Mudblood" was ever anything but a slur, or that it 
> used to be more common than it is now in the WW, which is not a 
> metaphor for any one place.
> ... The fact that he 
> also says "filthy Half-blood" seems to imply he still associates 
> Muggle-tainted blood as dirty, even if he doesn't care to argue
about it with Snape. 

Kemper now:
I agree with Magpie.
But even if 'Mudblood' was a label used in yesteryear, it's an
apologist argument for the present.   Phineas knows it's an epithet.
Why not call Mung a 'filthy theif' or 'a pile of dung'?  It would be
an understandable attack on Mungs character.  But Phineas' use of
'Filthy Half-Blood' is meant to disparage Mung's humanity. 

Phineas' portrait has been in the presence of Dumbledore for some
years so I have no doubt that he is aware of the offense of the term
(and similar ilk) in today's WW.

I agree that even though Phineas is a bigot, there are other
interesting characteristics to him which makes him interesting and
somewhat complex... which I don't find The Fat Lady to be.

Kemper




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Feb  2 23:12:18 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 23:12:18 -0000
Subject: Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <gm7faj+j78p@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm7uki+ca7q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185623

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Geoff:
> > So, I would suggest that "Snivellus" and "HBP" and any other
> unrevealed names were indeed nicknames. QED.
> 
> Carol:
> 
> Not QED. Just IYO (in your opinion). But it appears that the only
> point we now disagree on is whether "Snivellus," used by just two
> people to our knowledge, constitutes a nickname. 

Geoff:
Maybe the nickname only appears twice in canon but the reaction 
of the Marauders to its use in SWM implies that they were familiar 
with it and hence it had a bit more mileage under its belt than was 
chronicled in the pages of the books.

Carol: 
> At any rate, in your opinion, "Snivellus" is a nickname. In mine, it's
> just a nasty epithet used by two bullies. Harry defines "nickname" as
> "what my friends call me," to which Snape, not questioning that
> definition, responds, "I know what a nickname is." 

Geoff:
That may be Harry's interpretation but, as I quoted from a dictionary 
a day or so ago, the definition does not rule out being used in a 
derogatory way. I don't suppose that Richard Nixon thought very 
highly of "Tricky Dicky".

CArol:
> For the record, here's the definition of "epithet" from
> Merriam-Webster Online:
> 
> 1 a: a characterizing word or phrase accompanying or occurring in
> place of the name of a person or thing b: a disparaging or abusive
> word or phrase
> 
> So "Half-Blood Prince" is an epithet in sense one and "Snivellus" is
> an epithet in sense two.
> 
> Carol, who would have dropped the point had it not been for "QED"

Geoff:
So we agree to disagree.

I thought you would rise to my use of QED.
QED.
:-))






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  2 23:26:25 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 23:26:25 -0000
Subject: Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <gm7uki+ca7q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm7vf1+udj4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185624


> Geoff:
> Maybe the nickname only appears twice in canon but the reaction 
> of the Marauders to its use in SWM implies that they were familiar 
> with it and hence it had a bit more mileage under its belt than was 
> chronicled in the pages of the books.

Carol responds:
Of course, they were familiar with it! They invented it! And they held
onto it all that time. There's no indication that anyone else used it
until Lily angrily hurled it at Severus in retaliation for "Mudblood."

> Geoff:
> That may be Harry's interpretation but, as I quoted from a
dictionary a day or so ago, the definition does not rule out being
used in a derogatory way. I don't suppose that Richard Nixon thought
very highly of "Tricky Dicky".

Carol responds:
"Tricky Dick" (no second "y") was an epithet, not a nickname. See
definition 2 in my previous post. Your definition may not rule out a
derogatory use, but mine specifically includes it. QED.
>
> Geoff:
> So we agree to disagree.

Carol:
Yes. 
> 
> I thought you would rise to my use of QED.
> QED.
> :-))
>
Carol:
Oh, evil! :-P!!! ;-)

Carol, who will try not to rise to that bait again






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Feb  2 23:52:38 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 23:52:38 -0000
Subject: Nicknames
In-Reply-To: <gm7vf1+udj4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm8106+e49o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185625

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
> > That may be Harry's interpretation but, as I quoted from a
> dictionary a day or so ago, the definition does not rule out being
> used in a derogatory way. I don't suppose that Richard Nixon thought
> very highly of "Tricky Dicky".

Carol:
> "Tricky Dick" (no second "y") was an epithet, not a nickname. 

Geoff:
In the UK, it did have a "y" to make it rhyme. And the papers used it so 
much that I would see it as a nickname.

To be realistic I think this is like my "contro-versy" to someone else's 
"controv-ersy". "You say tomay-to, I say to-mahto, let's call the whole 
thing off."




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Feb  3 00:47:10 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 00:47:10 -0000
Subject: Narcissa / Divorce / Kill Or Not? / Returning With Slytherins?/ Myers-Briggs
In-Reply-To: <gm5p4p+3odr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm846e+t4f2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185626

 
> > Catlady:
> > Nitpick: Did she show us anything to indicate that Phineas
Nigellus was not a decent human being, other than Sirius saying 'the
most hated Headmaster Hogwarts ever had'? 
> 
> Kemper now:
> 
> Phineas refers to Hermione as 'The Mudblood' in The Prince's Tale
> Snape cuts him off and commands, "Do not use that word!"  
> 

Pippin:
Phineas was not using the word in the presence of a Muggleborn, or to
stir up  feelings against Muggleborns. He was using it to provoke
Snape, IMO, in the same way as Hermione used the word "horse" to tease
Lavender about Firenze. That was unworthy of her and  also unwise --
if Bane had heard her he'd have rearranged her magically prettified
teeth. But I think even Firenze would think it going a bit far to say
that Hermione wasn't a decent human being on that account.

Phineas would know Snape's history with Lily, or all of it that
unfolded in Dumbledore's office. Also, his great granddaughters were
at Hogwarts at the same time as Snape and it was very important to the
Black family that they marry suitably. I'd be  surprised if the  blood
status of every  Slytherin male at the time wasn't known to the last drop.

Pippin





From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 01:22:55 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 01:22:55 -0000
Subject: To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storyline/ Slytherins (LONG )
In-Reply-To: <gm7iar+9h4j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm869f+e1nk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185627

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "julie" <juli17 at ...> wrote:
>
> Julie:
> Just curious, but how do you know it is a "vocal minority"
> that noticed or felt a lack of resolution or redemption of
> the Slytherins after reading the books? This list itself is
> a very tiny minority of readers, and I'm not sure I could
> assert that a minority on *this* list read the passage as
> McGonagall justly expelling the entirety of Slytherin House
> as a dangerous, traitorous, racist element. 
> 
> In fact, in an interview JKR was asked why no Slytherins 
> came back to fight, and she replied "But of course they did."
> This indicates to me that not only a few readers on this 
> list were left wondering about the Slytherins and the lack
> of definite resolution to their story in the books. Whether
> it adds up to a minority or a majority I don't know--and I
> don't know how we really would without a survey on the 
> subject representing a cross-section of all HP readers.
> 
> Julie, who would find such a survey of general readers'
> interpretations and feelings about different aspects of
> the HP books very interesting, and no doubt illuminating
> to read, whatever it revealed.

jkoney:
I guess it would seem like a vocal minority because other than this 
group I hadn't run across anyone else in other groups or people that 
I personally know who read the book who ever brought it up. I realize 
that isn't a scientific survey, but it certainly makes it seem like a 
minority to me.

"But of course they did" seemed to me that JKR thought it was obvious 
enough through the story and the epilogue where the house still 
existed that it didn't have to be spelled out. And since I was 
thinking that way myself, and hadn't heard many others question it, 
it would never have occurred to me to question it.

In my opinion I also didn't think that it was that big of a plot 
point that needed a definite resolution. But I also never believed 
that Slytherin's were completely evil. Mabe nasty pieces of work, but 
that doesn't make all of them killers.




From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 01:37:35 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 01:37:35 -0000
Subject: To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storyline/ Slytherins (LONG )
In-Reply-To: <gm7def+10p6r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm874v+695r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185628

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol responds:
> 
> Maybe you'd read it that way, but without ever having read anyone
> else's reaction, I was appalled by McGonagall's behavior (much as 
I'd
> been appalled by her calling Harry's Crucio gallant and following it
> up with an Imperius of her own). Even though not one slytherin
> supports Pansy, Mcgonagall dismisses the whole lot of them on the
> assumption that they're dangerous, having already informed slughorn
> that she would kill any Slytherin student who fought for Voldemort.
> That some of the Slytherins might actually want to support Hogwarts
> never enters her mind. *She* sees them all as "dangerous" and
> "traitorous" (I'm not sure that "racist" enters into the equation
> since McGonagall has never expressed a view one way or another on
> Pure-blood supremacy, which, in any case, is not race). The reader,
> however, does not necessarily share her views (which, IMO, are 
shaped
> by her belief that Headmaster Snape is a murderer and therefore the
> students who admire him or were Sorted into the same House are
> potential murderers).
> 
> Carol, who thinks that a "vocal minority" has nothing to do with it
> and suspects that *many* readers on their own were appalled by
> McGonagall's "Housist" assumptions
>

jkoney:
I guess the question is what would you have had McGonagall do? She 
has a short time to get a defense of the school organized. She is 
already getting rid of the younger students to try and protect them. 
She is left with a group whose loyalties she doesn't know. 

Should she let them all stay? We find out for sure that Crabbe and 
Goyle would have fought against the defenders. We don't know how many 
others would have. And that's the problem she doesn't either. She 
challenges Slughorn to pick a side, because he was probably doing his 
best before this to not pick a side.

So she is left with a short time and possible enemies in her defense 
of the school. She makes the best decision she can in that time and 
tells all of them to leave. Is it fair? No. But how else is she going 
to determine in that short time who is trustworthy?

I'm sure I would have made the same decision. 

jkoney




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 02:13:05 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 02:13:05 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm79f2+6i02@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm897h+i7hs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185629

Magpie:
It's a pretty weak maybe since they don't come back. After all, it's
not like Minerva accuses them all of being DEs and sends them to LV.
She just gets them out of the school before the battle starts. She
does that with some students she considers innocent too. It's a
precaution to not have any of them there and according to the words
on the page the battle was won without their help.

Alla:

Well, I cannot agree that battle was won without their help 
necessarily, but the reason I brought up Minerva's actions is not to 
say that I judge her one bit, because I describe her actions exactly 
as you did.

And yes, I would much rather her being more cautious than not 
cautious enough when a representative of House Slytherin just 
attempted to send Harry to Voldemort and none of her classmates said 
no. I am glad that she did what she did, but if I am glad what she 
did, it does not mean that JKR necessarily wants us to agree, no?

I mean, it could be much harder to kick out Pantsy and her supporters 
only, but theoretically she could do that too, no?

Pippin:
<SNIP>
The book is much more
concerned with Harry's feelings about Dumbledore. Harry spends a lot
of time trying to sort out how much of what he'd always believed
about him was true, and how much was propaganda and stereotypes. I
don't think I've heard many readers claim that this struggle was
poorly written. <SNIP>

Alla:

Personally I thought this struggle was amazingly well written, but 
see next paragraph of yours that I quote below makes me wonder again, 
what if anything this has to do with Slytherins' situation.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
I think she wanted us to learn, not through Harry's attempt to make
sense of the Slytherins but through our own. The process would have to
be the same one that Harry went through with Dumbledore, deciding how
much of what we think about Slytherin is true, and how much we have
derived from propaganda and stereotypes. Of course JKR created the
propaganda and referenced the stereotypes, but that doesn't mean, IMO,
that she wanted us to swallow them whole.

Alla:

I suppose this is again argument by analogy? But how do you even 
analogizing what Harry learned and struggle with about Dumbledore and 
that this is what JKR meant us to do with Slytherins?

Propaganda, lies about Slytherins? What lies? Yes, we learned that 
they just as everybody else could be brave and could not support 
Voldemort, but where is pulling of the rug?

I mean, there is pulling of the rug with Snape of course, but with 
Slytherins in general? I am fully willing to accept the possibility 
that they come back as a secondary minor point, but I mean, I am just 
not sure how your analogy supposed to work here.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
It's just how I read it. Just because JKR gives the reader reasons to
*feel* that the Slytherins are all bad, or mostly bad, doesn't mean
that is how she wants the reader to *think.* <SNIP>

Alla:

Ah, now that I agree with ? intellectual v emotional reading, sure. 
But well, if she did not want me to feel empathy with the characters, 
does that really mean that she wanted to redeem them?

Because sure on the intellectual level I know they are not all bad. I 
just do not know Pippin. I can totally see the possibility of your 
reading, of the many layers of the book, etc. But I can also see the 
reading where house of Slytherin is a house of evil that needs to be 
drastically redone and there are some brave people there too, but it 
does not change that the house is bad.

I mean, really, it is just, I do not know, sometimes I think that to 
arrive at your reading one has to make too many assumptions, too many 
jumps from the page and I wonder if that was really JKR's intent.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
For example, Regulus doesn't count because he's not a current student.
Draco doesn't count because he didn't renounce blood-ism. Slughorn
doesn't count because he's snobbish. Narcissa doesn't count because
she was selfish. Andromeda doesn't count because Harry never
explicitly thinks of her as a Slytherin. Snape doesn't count because
he might have been a Gryffindor if he'd been sorted later in life. (So
might many others.)

And yet they all risked their lives to defy Voldemort and they all
helped to save innocent lives. If they'd done as much against the
Nazis, IMO they'd have memorials at Vad Yashem.

Alla:

Heh, totally agree.







From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  3 02:35:22 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 02:35:22 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm897h+i7hs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm8aha+5h0u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185630

> Magpie:
> It's a pretty weak maybe since they don't come back. After all, it's
> not like Minerva accuses them all of being DEs and sends them to LV.
> She just gets them out of the school before the battle starts. She
> does that with some students she considers innocent too. It's a
> precaution to not have any of them there and according to the words
> on the page the battle was won without their help.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, I cannot agree that battle was won without their help 
> necessarily, but the reason I brought up Minerva's actions is not 
to 
> say that I judge her one bit, because I describe her actions 
exactly 
> as you did.

Magpie:
Oh, I didn't think you did judge her. 

> Pippin:
> <SNIP>
> For example, Regulus doesn't count because he's not a current 
student.
> Draco doesn't count because he didn't renounce blood-ism. Slughorn
> doesn't count because he's snobbish. Narcissa doesn't count because
> she was selfish. Andromeda doesn't count because Harry never
> explicitly thinks of her as a Slytherin. Snape doesn't count because
> he might have been a Gryffindor if he'd been sorted later in life. 
(So
> might many others.)
> 
> And yet they all risked their lives to defy Voldemort and they all
> helped to save innocent lives. If they'd done as much against the
> Nazis, IMO they'd have memorials at Vad Yashem.

Magpie:
Actually, I don't think anyone has said they didn't count. I, for 
instance, just point out that Slytherin's character is consistent. If 
they love someone they can be moved to brave acts, including brave 
acts against Voldemort. Nobody's denying their memorials in Vad 
Yashem, neither readers nor characters. I still don't think that 
implies any sort of bias on the part of readers if they don't see 
this alleged intention of JKR's to show us how biased we and the 
heroes are about anybody. Obviously they count. Slytherin is still 
around at the end of the series. Harry references Snape as a 
Slytherin who was brave. They all also get connected to the blood 
prejudice that's presented as the defining evil of the series in ways 
other Houses aren't. It seems like one has to ignore a lot to think 
of Slytherin as just another equal House that's being judged unfairly 
by anybody.

Pippin:
Phineas was not using the word in the presence of a Muggleborn, or to
stir up feelings against Muggleborns. He was using it to provoke
Snape, IMO, in the same way as Hermione used the word "horse" to tease
Lavender about Firenze. 

Magpie:
Are you suggesting that it's not just racist to use the word if he's 
not using it in the presence of a Muggleborn, or because he's using 
it to "rile up" Half-blood Snape over his dead Muggleborn friend? 
(Not that I agree he's doing that at all--I think he's just using the 
word because that's who Hermione is to him.) Whether one wants to 
think being a bigot makes one not a decent human being or not, I 
think Phineas is just being a bigot here, just as much as he would be 
if he used the word to Hermione's face.

-m




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 03:15:05 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 03:15:05 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm8aha+5h0u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm8crp+77ah@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185631

> Magpie:
> Actually, I don't think anyone has said they didn't count. I, for 
> instance, just point out that Slytherin's character is consistent. If 
> they love someone they can be moved to brave acts, including brave 
> acts against Voldemort. Nobody's denying their memorials in Vad 
> Yashem, neither readers nor characters. I still don't think that 
> implies any sort of bias on the part of readers if they don't see 
> this alleged intention of JKR's to show us how biased we and the 
> heroes are about anybody. Obviously they count. Slytherin is still 
> around at the end of the series. Harry references Snape as a 
> Slytherin who was brave. They all also get connected to the blood 
> prejudice that's presented as the defining evil of the series in ways 
> other Houses aren't. It seems like one has to ignore a lot to think 
> of Slytherin as just another equal House that's being judged unfairly 
> by anybody.
>

Alla:

Oh, no, I would think that there is plenty of ugliness in Slytherin 
house, but my question is what are they count for to you?

And do they count as representatives of Slytherin house? Because I 
cannot speak for Pippin of course, but that is how I read this part of 
her post. Because I totally agree that for some reason to many readers 
(as I read the posts of course) it seems to me that these guys get 
discounted as part of the group.

We don't judge Gryffs as group, right? We judge them based on who we 
see from this group. We judge them on Harry, Ron, Hermione, but we also 
judge Gryffs based on Peter Pettigrew.

I most certainly judge Slytherins based on Draco and Pansy, but at 
least on thinking level, I judge them based on others too, you know?

I mean, I would never say that they do not subscribe to the ugly 
ideology and even those brave ones at least at some point in their 
lifes did, but they did not anymore, right?

So why their redemption does not count as a redemption of the group 
they belong to?

Alla




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  3 04:10:24 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 04:10:24 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm8crp+77ah@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm8g3g+h6eh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185632

> Alla:
> 
> Oh, no, I would think that there is plenty of ugliness in Slytherin 
> house, but my question is what are they count for to you?
> 
> And do they count as representatives of Slytherin house? Because I 
> cannot speak for Pippin of course, but that is how I read this part 
of 
> her post. Because I totally agree that for some reason to many 
readers 
> (as I read the posts of course) it seems to me that these guys get 
> discounted as part of the group.

Magpie:
I don't discount them as part of the group--they are absolutely part 
of Slytherin (though I think Dumbledore's "maybe we sort to early" 
line comes closer to edging Snape towards 'not counting as Slytherin' 
than anything said here). They are representative. Slytherin has 
never been characterized as made up only of evil people, or killers, 
or DEs. Being inspired by someone you love to do something brave or 
good is perfectly in keeping with the characterization of Slytherin. 
Just as harassing a kid like Snape was in keeping with the 
characterization of Gryffindor. There's nobody identified as 
Slytherin in canon that I would say "doesn't count" as part of the 
House or whose actions don't reflect on their House. 

I think we do of course judge the Houses as a whole as well as as 
individuals. This doesn't mean that all members of the House are the 
same, but I think the Houses themselves take on an overall character. 
We see a lot of Slytherins, though some of them we only see briefly.

Alla:
> I mean, I would never say that they do not subscribe to the ugly 
> ideology and even those brave ones at least at some point in their 
> lifes did, but they did not anymore, right?

Magpie:
Depends on the person. I would say Snape didn't subscribe to it any 
more.

Alla: 
> So why their redemption does not count as a redemption of the group 
> they belong to?

Magpie:
I think it does count as a redemption to the extent it is a 
redemption. Snape was generally unpleasant throughout his life, was 
for a time a believer in Pureblood superiority, quite possibly 
stopped believing in that, and was instrumental in bringing down 
Voldemort. That was Slytherin playing its part in bringing down 
Voldemort in action. I think Snape retained many of the kinds of 
negative qualities that were often associated with Slytherin, but he 
was an important ally against Voldemort and gave his life for it.

-m




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 05:32:09 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 05:32:09 -0000
Subject: To kill or not to kill  and resolutions of the storyline/ Slytherins (LONG )
In-Reply-To: <gm7iar+9h4j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm8ksp+v9pa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185633

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "julie" <juli17 at ...> wrote:
>
> Montavilla47 wrote:
> > 
> > Again, if it weren't for the vocal minority, we'd simply read that
> > passage as McGonagall justly expelling the dangerous, traitorous,
> > racist element from the school.  
> > 
> > That they are allowed back in eventually could easily be 
> > explained by the secret contributions of Regulus and Snape, 
> > and Slughorn's return, and the realization that the Slytherins
> > are, like Peeves and the moldy hallways, something to be 
> > tolerated.  Why, some of them are even all right.
> >
> 
> Julie:
> Just curious, but how do you know it is a "vocal minority"
> that noticed or felt a lack of resolution or redemption of
> the Slytherins after reading the books? This list itself is
> a very tiny minority of readers, and I'm not sure I could
> assert that a minority on *this* list read the passage as
> McGonagall justly expelling the entirety of Slytherin House
> as a dangerous, traitorous, racist element. 

Montavilla47:

It's vocal because, on this list, anyway, it's still being 
discussed.  I'm assuming it's a minority, because, as you
say, this list itself is much smaller than the general HP 
fandom, and from a cursory look at larger sites, most 
people don't seem to have any problem with DH.  

I looked back at Leaky Cauldron's poll about DH on
7/22/2007.  According to their results, 56 % thought
that the book was everything or more than they 
wanted it to be.  Only 18% thought it was less or much
less than they expected. 12% thought it was everything JKR
wanted it to be and thus great, while 11% were too 
distraught or sobbing to answer (I'm not sure if that
means it was good or terrible).
Over 18,000 people voted in their poll.  The link is here:

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/polls/deathly-hallows/results


Julie:
> In fact, in an interview JKR was asked why no Slytherins 
> came back to fight, and she replied "But of course they did."
> This indicates to me that not only a few readers on this 
> list were left wondering about the Slytherins and the lack
> of definite resolution to their story in the books. Whether
> it adds up to a minority or a majority I don't know--and I
> don't know how we really would without a survey on the 
> subject representing a cross-section of all HP readers.

Montavilla47:
I agree, Julie, but in absence of such a poll, I'm going to 
assume that the majority is fine with the book as it is.
And not all those who do have a problem are going to 
base it on a lack of Slytherins in the final battle.

After all, there are others things one might object to,
such as the Elder Wand stuff, the distraction of the 
the Deathly Hallows, and the obsession with Dumbledore's
teenage fling.





From a_svirn at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 11:04:07 2009
From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 11:04:07 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm8g3g+h6eh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm98b7+lpau@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185634

> Magpie:
> I don't discount them as part of the group--they are absolutely part 
> of Slytherin (though I think Dumbledore's "maybe we sort to early" 
> line comes closer to edging Snape towards 'not counting as Slytherin' 
> than anything said here). 

More importantly even, it reinforces the idea of Slytherin as a house 
of rotters. Because in this instance "I think we sort too early" 
translates as "I think we cull or discard too early." Obviously, 
Dumbledore meant that there was something in Snape worthy of a better 
fate than being consigned to the lifetime of slytherinness.  
a_svirn




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 12:20:12 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 12:20:12 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm98b7+lpau@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm9cps+48vv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185635


a_svirn: 
> More importantly even, it reinforces the idea of Slytherin as a house 
> of rotters. Because in this instance "I think we sort too early" 
> translates as "I think we cull or discard too early." Obviously, 
> Dumbledore meant that there was something in Snape worthy of a better 
> fate than being consigned to the lifetime of slytherinness.  


Alla:

Hm, sure if one takes Dumbledore's every opinion as the one that author 
holds as correct, then sure it can reinforce that idea I agree.

But Dumbledore at various points of his life hold such opinions as 
muggle domination is a good thing, he also thought that it would be 
good to divert Harry from Horcruxes and to hallows, those are two 
examples where text pretty explicitly tells us that those opinions are 
wrong, no?

So, yes, sure it can reinforce the idea that Slytherin is a house of 
rotters, it can also reinforce my thoughts of telling Dumbledore to 
shove this opinion of his to the same part of his brain where he holds 
the opinion that it is okay to lecture the teenager about the 
misgivings of his just dead godfather, and where he holds the opinion 
that it is totally ok to disregard the danger whole school is in as 
long as he is trying to save Draco's soul, and where he holds the 
opinion that he would not let Minerva in on some Order's secrets, etc, 
etc.

This last paragraph is of course my intepretation of what Dumbledore 
thought or did, and I am not bringing it as facts, I am bringing those 
into the mix to say that I personally heard Dumbledore being wrong so 
so many times, that this remark, well, reallly does not account for 
much, if anything, except another time when he could be wrong.

I mean, I know JKR said that Dumbledore often speaks for her, but I do 
not believe she said Dumbledore always speaks for her (can somebody 
post a link for this interview, please?) and in any event we have 
several times Dumbledore being wrong in the text.

This remark is not even a fact, which I would have harder time 
disbelieving him. He specifically says I think.

JMO,

Alla




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 16:22:06 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:22:06 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm9cps+48vv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm9qve+ubk6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185636

> a_svirn: 
> > More importantly even, it reinforces the idea of Slytherin as a house 
> > of rotters. Because in this instance "I think we sort too early" 
> > translates as "I think we cull or discard too early." Obviously, 
> > Dumbledore meant that there was something in Snape worthy of a better 
> > fate than being consigned to the lifetime of slytherinness.  
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Hm, sure if one takes Dumbledore's every opinion as the one that author 
> holds as correct, then sure it can reinforce that idea I agree.
> 
> But Dumbledore at various points of his life hold such opinions as 
> muggle domination is a good thing, he also thought that it would be 
> good to divert Harry from Horcruxes and to hallows, those are two 
> examples where text pretty explicitly tells us that those opinions are 
> wrong, no?

Montavilla47:
Hmm.  I'm not sure we're supposed to think that Dumbledore's idea
to divert Harry from the Horcruxes and to the Hallows was a bad one.
I got the impression that this was supposed to part of his brilliant plan.
He gives Harry the information about the Hallows, but in such a way
that it takes Hermione several months to find out what they are and 
that they are said to exist.

In the meantime, Harry apparently acquires the needed maturity not
to choose to seek the Hallows and instead to continue the Horcrux
quest.  But, at the same time, Harry has the knowledge that allows 
him to recognize the Hallows and to become their master.

That's the way I read it, anyway.  But, getting back to that remark...

Alla:
> So, yes, sure it can reinforce the idea that Slytherin is a house of 
> rotters, it can also reinforce my thoughts of telling Dumbledore to 
> shove this opinion of his to the same part of his brain where he holds 
> the opinion that it is okay to lecture the teenager about the 
> misgivings of his just dead godfather, and where he holds the opinion 
> that it is totally ok to disregard the danger whole school is in as 
> long as he is trying to save Draco's soul, and where he holds the 
> opinion that he would not let Minerva in on some Order's secrets, etc, 
> etc.

Montavilla47:
I'll agree that all of these were stupid ideas.  Although, again, I 
think that we're supposed to agree with Harry not divulging the 
secrets that Dumbledore taught him about Voldemort in HBP.

I still don't know how we're supposed to take that scene with
Snape in the garden.  I'll give JKR credit for being deliberately
ambiguous here.  Is Snape's "stricken" look because Dumbledore
is being so horribly offensive?  Or is it because he realizes his
enthusiasm for the "brainy" House was what led him astray so
many years ago?

I mean, I don't think it would have made Snape's life much
better to have been sorted into Slytherin.  I shudder to think
what it would have been like to have been stuck in the same
dorm with the Marauders for seven years.  But maybe JKR's
message here is that Snape could have been a better person
if he had hadn't been sorted into a House that played to his
evil side--what with the Dark Arts obsession and all.

Alla:
> This last paragraph is of course my intepretation of what Dumbledore 
> thought or did, and I am not bringing it as facts, I am bringing those 
> into the mix to say that I personally heard Dumbledore being wrong so 
> so many times, that this remark, well, reallly does not account for 
> much, if anything, except another time when he could be wrong.

Montavilla47:
Right.  And I think this is coming from the same place, for you, that
certain things about Harry and Hermione come from for me.  The 
biggest example being, of course, the disfigurement of Marietta.

At first, I thought this was just another amusing storyline where 
someone who threatens harm to Harry is punished in a comic
magical fashion.  (Like that pig tail Dudley gets in PS/SS.)  But,
when we see that the disfigurement is permanent (at least, it's
still there several months later), it crossed a line for me.  

And. from that point on, everything Harry and Hermione had 
done became suspect for me.   Like Dumbledore did for you 
once you realized he had placed Harry with the family who
treated him so badly.







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 17:25:10 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 17:25:10 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm9qve+ubk6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gm9ulm+d4o9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185637

Montavilla47 wrote:
> Hmm.  I'm not sure we're supposed to think that Dumbledore's idea to
divert Harry from the Horcruxes and to the Hallows was a bad one. I
got the impression that this was supposed to part of his brilliant
plan. He gives Harry the information about the Hallows, but in such a
way that it takes Hermione several months to find out what they are
and that they are said to exist.
> 
> In the meantime, Harry apparently acquires the needed maturity not
to choose to seek the Hallows and instead to continue the Horcrux
quest.  But, at the same time, Harry has the knowledge that allows 
him to recognize the Hallows and to become their master.

Carol responds:
Well, yes and no. He was already the master of the Invisibility Cloak
and he became master of the Elder Wand wholly by accident. And just
what would have happened if he'd ever possessed all three at the same
time and become Master of Death we don't know because he threw away
the Resurrection Stone before he faced Voldemort the first time.

But it just occurred to me as I read your post that Harry had to
become the master of the Resurrection Stone in order to use it. 
Understanding that "I open at the close" meant that he, Harry, was
about to die enabled him to open the Snitch and use the Stone. Does
his ability to do those two things mean that the Stone recognized him
as its master? Certainly, his intended use of it merely to give
himself courage for his self-sacrifice (rather than trying to bring
back his dead loved ones for selfish purposes) made him worthy of it
in a way that Dumbledore was not, even if the stone hadn't been made
into a Horcrux and cursed. And, of course, had it not been for Snape's
message, Harry would never have been able to open the Snitch to get to
the Stone, so Dumbledore's "brilliant plan" was even more dependent on
Snape than I had realized (or Snape himself realized).
 
> Montavilla47:

> <snip> I still don't know how we're supposed to take that scene with
Snape in the garden.  I'll give JKR credit for being deliberately
ambiguous here.  Is Snape's "stricken" look because Dumbledore is
being so horribly offensive?  Or is it because he realizes his
enthusiasm for the "brainy" House was what led him astray so many
years ago?

Carol responds:

IIRC, the remark about sorting too soon is made long before the garden
scene, at the point in GoF where Snape tells DD that he has no
intention of running away like Karkaroff and DD says that Snape is a
much braver man than Karkaroff. Maybe he should have left it at that,
a kind of left-handed compliment (much braver than Karkaroff is
comparable to much smarter than Goyle) that Snape could nonetheless
have recognized as true. (DD's compliments to Snape are always
understatements, anyway--cf. Snape's "timely action" in saving him
from the ring curse, though, of course, Snape wasn't present for that
one.)

As for Snape's "stricken" look, I think it's open to interpretation. I
don't think he's offended, just surprised and hurt as if DD had
slapped him--which, of course, is not DD's intended reaction. I'm
quite sure that he was speaking aloud to himself, and if he had said
directly to Snape, "You should have been Sorted into Gryffindor," he'd
have meant it as a compliment.

It's quite possible that he's right, that children between eleven and
thirteen or fourteen shouldn't be segregated into Houses or exposed to
the ideologies and rivalries of a particular House. Suppose that
Severus, Sirius, and James, three talented boys of the same age, had
met without the barrier of House rivalries and mutual prejudice to
separate them. Could they have become friends? Would Severus, who
certainly valued courage given his response even as an adult to being
called a coward, have wanted to become a Gryffindor? And would that
have been a good thing--Severus ("Batty" for his bat Animagus?) as the
fifth Marauder? An arrogant bully like MWPP but at least not tempted
to become a Death Eater? Sigh. Gryffindor in his era wasn't exactly
wonderful regardless of what Dumbledore thinks of his own House.

But back to Snape's reaction. He's surprised and hurt. That's what
"stircken" implies. Is he surprised that DD would implicitly insult
his House, evidently equating it with Death Eaters? (IMO, Karkaroff,
despite his name and his profession as Durmstrang headmaster, was a
Hogwarts student at one time and most likely a Slytherin.) Or does he
hate Gryffindor so much that he he's hurt by the idea of being Sorted
there? I think it's the first. Slytherin was a home to him and he
still has Slytherin friends, including the Malfoys. His experience
with Gryffindors, in contrast, has not been cordial. I suppose it's
rather like a man saying in the presence of the woman he's speaking
of, "She should have been born a man." In the speaker's mind, it's a
compliment. In the listener's mind, especially if she's happy being a
woman, it's both a compliment and an insult. But even that won't do
because men and women aren't traditional enemies. Maybe a Syrian
saying of an Israeli Jew, "He should have been born a Muslim" or vice
versa? I can't think of a good analogy, but, obviously, both Snape and
DD are thinking only of two Houses. DD has been speaking of courage.
Obviously, he doesn't mean that Snape should have been Sorted into
Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw.

To me, it's just another example of DD's tactlessness. He lectures
other people on their manners (Vernon Dursley and the Carrows, for
example), but his own could use some improvement. His sense of his own
superiority is part of it, I think, but old age may be part of it,
too. He says something to Harry in OoP about forgetting what it's like
to be young. He's forgotten not only what it's like to be a teenager
but what it's like to be in your mid-thirties (Snape is not quite 35
at the time).

As for Snape finally realizing that he'd been led astray long ago,
that's a thought that hadn't occurred to me. I don't think that
happens or we'd see a change in his attitude toward both the
Slytherins and the Gryffindors.

montavilla47: 
> I mean, I don't think it would have made Snape's life much better to
have been sorted into Slytherin. 

Carol:

Erm, Gryffindor, do you mean?

montavilla47:
> I shudder to think what it would have been like to have been stuck
in the same dorm with the Marauders for seven years.  But maybe JKR's
message here is that Snape could have been a better person if he had
hadn't been sorted into a House that played to his evil side--what
with the Dark Arts obsession and all. <snip>

Carol responds:
I've already speculated on that possibility, at least on being Sorted
there after a delay in which he showed who he was through his choices
(talented and courageous) without early exposure to the Slytherins.
If, for example, he was Sorted after Lucius Malfoy had left the
school, that bond would never have been developed. And, of course,
we'd have to eliminate that nasty incident on the Hogwarts Express. At
least, he'd have been in the same House as Lily and her friends
wouldn't have objected to her friendship with him. But being Sorted
into Gryffindor immediately after having expressed a preference for
Slytherin and being in the same dorm room as the Marauders would have
been a painful experience. Maybe that thought accounts for Snape's
"stricken" expression! He's being compared to James and Sirius, his
longtime enemies, the latter not yet dead. Imagine his reaction to the
implication that maybe he's as good as they are! No wonder he looks as
if DD has just slapped his face.

Carol, who thinks that DD is right about Snape's courage but wrong to
tactlessly equate courage with Gryffindor in Snape's presence,
especially given his knowledge of Snape's antipathy for James




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Tue Feb  3 18:41:45 2009
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 11:41:45 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
References: <gm9qve+ubk6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <FE1EB263C673475782D1E54C3D2CCE98@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 185638

> Montavilla47:
> Right.  And I think this is coming from the same place, for you, that
> certain things about Harry and Hermione come from for me.  The
> biggest example being, of course, the disfigurement of Marietta.
>
> At first, I thought this was just another amusing storyline where
> someone who threatens harm to Harry is punished in a comic
> magical fashion.  (Like that pig tail Dudley gets in PS/SS.)  But,
> when we see that the disfigurement is permanent (at least, it's
> still there several months later), it crossed a line for me.
>
> And. from that point on, everything Harry and Hermione had
> done became suspect for me.   Like Dumbledore did for you
> once you realized he had placed Harry with the family who
> treated him so badly.

Shelley:
About Marietta's disfigurement, I had no problems with it being there months 
later. I did not read into this event an example of how "mean" Hermione 
could be, or how corrupt the Gryffindors could be. This is how I read the 
Wizarding world- some spells could be easily reversed, some spells wear off 
as time went on, some spells were permanent, some spells could be permanent 
if someone did not do something specific to reverse them. I think every 
Wizard in school quickly learned about strength of spells and what it took 
to reverse certain types of magic, and that they all willingly chose to play 
with that magic, all taking chances of a spell or other magic permanently 
marking them somehow. I think Marietta's face was one of those spells that 
potentially could were wear off as time went on- that the marks would 
continue to face, but that the duration of that time could be a year or more 
for it to completely fade. (See other spells, such as Fred and George's 
swamp before they left.) I also thought that it could be the last option- 
that if she had gone to the hospital, they would have recognized it as a 
curse and could have reversed the damage. I assumed that Madame Pomfrey did 
not know the correct antidote (she was treating it as if it were pimples, or 
a skin reaction, or a quick jinx rather than a "curse" spell, because she 
did not know it's origin and may have assumed it was just a prank stunt 
rather than a full fledged curse- Hermione was more gifted that the usual 
student who would do a quick prank spell at another student).  So, the fact 
for me that it was there months later strongly indicated to me that Madame 
Pomfrey missed what it was and was treating it incorrectly. I am sure that 
Marietta was shy in explaining the full situation of what she did to 
activate the curse, obscuring what could have led to a proper diagnosis and 
treatment. I think she had a hand in her own treatment, in her fate 
afterward, that left those marks there. We have no way of knowing if 
Hermione had put a trigger on the spell so that a full confession or "I'm 
sorry" attitude would have prompted the mark to completely disappear, and 
that Marietta was stubbornly choosing to insist that she meant no harm, 
keeping that mark there.

So, in short, no, I did not feel bad for Marietta that she still had this 
mark, as I think many other Wizards would have marks from spells gone bad or 
from curses that they willingly chose not to seek treatment for 
(Dumbledore's scar on his knee, for example), and I think that if it really 
bothered her, she would have sought treatment over the summer at St. Mungos. 
I also never thought of Gryffindor's being so pure that they couldn't use 
spells which might border on a curse triggered by someone going back on 
their word- Marietta signed the sheet willingly, and thus agreed to any 
consequence from breaking that oath. The magical world is full of 
consequences that we don't have in the Muggle world, and they all knew that 
before they even entered school to study magic. I don't see Gryffindors 
holding an oath to never harm another Wizard or anything so pure as to those 
ideals, that Hermione was breaking any moral code by placing the triggering 
curse on the secrecy of the DA group. She was merely taking a proactive step 
to protect all of her fellow classmates where were in the DA. In a world 
where 10 ton toffees and Puking Pastels were  routine gag candy, a few marks 
on the face didn't strike me as extraordinary or the worst that could have 
happened to an individual, and I certainly did not think they were 
permanent.

Shelley 




From a_svirn at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 18:46:47 2009
From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 18:46:47 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm9ulm+d4o9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gma3en+ppfv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185639

> > Montavilla47:
> 
> > <snip> I still don't know how we're supposed to take that scene 
with
> Snape in the garden.  I'll give JKR credit for being deliberately
> ambiguous here.  Is Snape's "stricken" look because Dumbledore is
> being so horribly offensive?  Or is it because he realizes his
> enthusiasm for the "brainy" House was what led him astray so many
> years ago?
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
<snip-snip> 
> As for Snape's "stricken" look, I think it's open to 
interpretation. I
> don't think he's offended, just surprised and hurt as if DD had
> slapped him--which, of course, is not DD's intended reaction. I'm
> quite sure that he was speaking aloud to himself, and if he had said
> directly to Snape, "You should have been Sorted into Gryffindor," 
he'd
> have meant it as a compliment.
> 

a_svirn:
Which, in turn, would mean that Slytherin House is a very bad 
proposition. Dumbledore is basically saying, "We wrote you off too 
early, Severus. You are not all that rotten we shouldn't have lumped 
you with all the other baddies after all". Whether Rowling shares his 
opinion on both Slytherin and Severus is debatable; however if 
Dumbledore himself felt this way, the question is why on earth did he 
tolerate the existence of this house of baddies much less expose 
students in his care to its corrupting influence. 
a_svirn




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 19:31:13 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 19:31:13 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <FE1EB263C673475782D1E54C3D2CCE98@homemain>
Message-ID: <gma621+9rqf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185640

Shelley wrote:
> About Marietta's disfigurement, <snip> I think Marietta's face was
one of those spells that potentially could were wear off as time went
on- that the marks would continue to face, but that the duration of
that time could be a year or more for it to completely fade. <snip> I
also thought that it could be the last option- that if she had gone to
the hospital, they would have recognized it as a curse and could have
reversed the damage. I assumed that Madame Pomfrey did not know the
correct antidote (she was treating it as if it were pimples, or a skin
reaction, or a quick jinx rather than a "curse" spell, because she did
not know it's origin and may have assumed it was just a prank stunt 
rather than a full fledged curse- Hermione was more gifted that the
usual student who would do a quick prank spell at another student). 
So, the fact for me that it was there months later strongly indicated
to me that Madame Pomfrey missed what it was and was treating it
incorrectly. I am sure that Marietta was shy in explaining the full
situation of what she did to activate the curse, obscuring what could
have led to a proper diagnosis and treatment. <snip>

Carol responds:

I don't want to get into the ethics of casting that spell or whether
Marietta deserved it. Suffice it to say that it's one of those points
that Shelley and I don't agree on and I don't want to get into another
ping pong match.

I think, though, that you've forgotten that Kingsley Obliviated
Marietta, so she has no way of telling Madam Pomfrey what happened.
Umbridge could tell Madam Pomfrey that the pustules suddenly appeared
when Marietta informed her about the DA meeting. Whether Umbridge
would do so is another question, but if she did, Madam P. would at
least know that they had been caused by a hex or jinx. My guess is
that Madam P. is unfamiliar with that particular hex or jinx because
Hermione invented it. (I doubt that Hermione herseld knows the
countercurse; she thinks that the "Sneak" deserved it and consequently
never considered reversing it.)

I don't think that the hex will reverse itself. There's no indication
that it has done so in the books. She's hiding behind either a
balaclava or heavy make-up when we see her again. (she doesn't appear
in DH.) Evidently, dittany didn't help since Madam Pomfrey know about
it. (Snape made sure that she gave it to Draco to prevent scarring
from Sectum Sempra.) It must be permanent or at least extremely
difficult to remove if that's the case. Since Marietta's mother was at
this point a Ministry employee (what happened to her when the DEs took
over, we don't know), I suspect that her mother would have sent her to
St. Mungo's or had sufficient influence to get special advice from a
Healer, but, if that's the case, it didn't help much. And Snape, the
Potions master in OoP and DADA teacher in HBP, could perhaps have
helped her if he'd been asked, given his knowledge of Dark magic
(Hermione's hex would be small potatoes compared with the ring and
necklace curses), but either no one thought to ask him or he, too,
thought that Marietta deserved it. Dumbledore, of course, couldn't
request his help since he had left Hogwarts via Fawkes. (They may have
been in communication about other matters, but apparently Marietta's
plight wasn't sufficiently important to DD to merit special attention.)

I think the whole incident is sad, really. A hex that lasted a week
would be one thing; a hex that lasts years--or a lifetime--for an
offense that she committed as a teenager and doesn't even remember is
quite another.

Carol, who doesn't share JKR's love for punishing her minor villains




From caaf at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  3 19:09:44 2009
From: caaf at hotmail.com (Cyril A Fernandes)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 00:39:44 +0530
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
References: <gma3en+ppfv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <BLU111-DAV89BD57D6B741D2EB71AF1CAC20@phx.gbl>

No: HPFGUIDX 185641

Cyril here:

Been a long time since I have commented on this group...

> Carol responds:
> <snip-snip> As for Snape's "stricken" look, I think 
> it's open to interpretation. I don't think he's offended, 
> just surprised and hurt <snip>. I'm quite sure that he 
> was speaking aloud to himself, and if he had said
> directly to Snape, "You should have been Sorted into 
> Gryffindor," he'd have meant it as a compliment.
>
> a_svirn:
> Which, in turn, would mean that Slytherin House is a very 
> bad proposition. Dumbledore is basically saying, "We wrote 
> you off too early, Severus. You are not all that rotten we 
> shouldn't have lumped you with all the other baddies after
> all". Whether Rowling shares his opinion on both Slytherin
> and Severus is debatable; however if Dumbledore himself 
> felt this way, the question is why on earth did he tolerate
> the existence of this house of baddies much less expose 
> students in his care to its corrupting influence. 


Cyril:

My thoughts on this are slightly different - and it links 
back to the qualities Gryffindors and Slytherins as per the 
Sorting Hat.

Do not have the books for exact quotes, but essentially, 
Gryffindors are brave at heart, and should fight on behalf 
of their fellow men.

Slytherins however, are more of the nature to fight only for 
their own benefit, and not for others or for a common good.

However, Snape was actually fighting in the background for 
the destruction of Voldemort, and in the bargain was putting 
his own life at stake, demonstrating a courageous quality 
expected from Gryffindors, and not Slytherins.

Just my thought

Cyril, going back to lurking for some more time, unless 
something catches my eye







From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Tue Feb  3 20:23:55 2009
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 13:23:55 -0700
Subject: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
References: <gma621+9rqf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9DE57F90EBC54A879F7C68E31CEADC5C@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 185642

> Carol responds:
> I think, though, that you've forgotten that Kingsley Obliviated
> Marietta, so she has no way of telling Madam Pomfrey what happened.

Shelley:
Are you assuming, then, that this Obliviation is permanent- that Marietta 
would have no way of remembering EVER that she betrayed the DA? I just don't 
see that in the books- I think Cho and the others would have told her or she 
would have figured it out from the events that happened. Certainly, if she 
had no way of remembering that she was a snitch, then she would have asked 
her friends, or her classmates from the DA who knew would have told her, why 
that word was on her face. Are you assuming that no one thought to tell her 
why she had that word on her face? I still think she would have had the 
choice to be sorry for her actions, or merely feel like she was the victim, 
once she had learned from the others what she had done. I see the Obliviate 
as a temporary confusion- she forgot why she was there, what she was going 
to testify before Umbridge and the others, and then she was hit with the 
curse and completely was befuddled for the moment. But later, I think she 
did have the means of putting things together to know why she was being 
scorned by other DA members. I think the pustules were not the only 
punishment she recieved- surely she had some dirty looks and nasty comments 
of "thanks for the betrayal" from the other DA members once word got out of 
whom had done it, given all the severity of rule changes that followed for 
the whole school. I think the DA and it's betrayal was such a huge thing 
that the whole school knew about it through the grapevine, and even students 
who weren't in DA might not be sympathetic to her.

> Carol:
> I don't think that the hex will reverse itself. There's no indication
> that it has done so in the books. She's hiding behind either a
> balaclava or heavy make-up when we see her again. (she doesn't appear
> in DH.) Evidently, dittany didn't help since Madam Pomfrey know about
> it. (Snape made sure that she gave it to Draco to prevent scarring
> from Sectum Sempra.) It must be permanent or at least extremely
> difficult to remove if that's the case.

Shelley:
No, we see in the books that the specific remedy must be applied for the 
particular ailment- a beezor stone removing poison, for example. Miss the 
exact remedy, you don't get results, but that is not to say that the exact 
cure is "hard". I hardly think that Madame Pomfrey, being a school nurse, 
would know the solution for EVERY hex or jinx that the students would come 
up with, especially since they have an entire library full of them at their 
disposal, should they be smart enough to look some up, as Hermione was. I 
think Pomfrey missed that this was a curse, which required a different 
treatment than the usual hex of pimples. I don't think it would have been 
hard to cure Marietta at all.

> Carol
> Since Marietta's mother was at
> this point a Ministry employee (what happened to her when the DEs took
> over, we don't know), I suspect that her mother would have sent her to
> St. Mungo's or had sufficient influence to get special advice from a
> Healer, but, if that's the case, it didn't help much.

Shelley:
I don't get that either from the books- we are notified when people 
disappear from the school to go to St. Mungos, and we are not told of that 
of Marietta, leaving me to believe that she stayed at Hogwarts. If Madame 
Pomfrey believed that she could fix it with Dittany, or some other topical 
solution, and Marietta was in no way prevented from still taking classes and 
doing her school work from this (on the surface appearance, very minor) 
ailment, then there would be no real "need" to go to St. Mungos. Thus, I 
don't think her parents would have been notified that she needed hospital 
treatment to begin with. Madane Pomfrey would have dismissed or 
underestimated the severity of the pustules, thinking she could still fix 
them. I think her parents were told "she's been hexed with pimples, we are 
working on it, no need to be concerned". We (as the readership) know she's 
been cursed, but do the others who were taking care of Marietta realize 
that? No, they wouldn't.

> Carol:
> And Snape, the
> Potions master in OoP and DADA teacher in HBP, could perhaps have
> helped her if he'd been asked, given his knowledge of Dark magic
> (Hermione's hex would be small potatoes compared with the ring and
> necklace curses), but either no one thought to ask him or he, too,
> thought that Marietta deserved it.

Shelley:
Again, I don't get that Marietta "deserved" it, so that people in power and 
position continued to punish her, just that the real solution was missed. I 
don't see Snape being consulted for any "routine" medical matter, only 
life-threatening, immediate dangers. The teachers seem to be very clear 
about who has which job, and seem not to step over each other's positions 
out of respect. Snape would only be called in as the "expert" when he was 
needed- who would think to call him for a hex of pimples if that is what 
Madame Pomfrey thought it was? Snape would have been affronted to be asked 
to take care of such a small matter!

We (as the readership) know what must be done to help her, but this a story 
that Rowling tells, and the people in the story missed the solution, and 
thus Marietta continues to suffer from the pustules months later. 




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 20:37:46 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 20:37:46 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm9ulm+d4o9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gma9uq+sgm4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185643

> > Montavilla47:
> 
> > <snip> I still don't know how we're supposed to take that scene with
> Snape in the garden.  I'll give JKR credit for being deliberately
> ambiguous here.  Is Snape's "stricken" look because Dumbledore is
> being so horribly offensive?  Or is it because he realizes his
> enthusiasm for the "brainy" House was what led him astray so many
> years ago?
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> IIRC, the remark about sorting too soon is made long before the garden
> scene, at the point in GoF where Snape tells DD that he has no
> intention of running away like Karkaroff and DD says that Snape is a
> much braver man than Karkaroff. 


Montavilla47:

Um, yes. But didn't that all happen in the garden?  That was my
impression--that he and Dumbledore were talking in the garden
during the Yule Ball.

Carol:
> But back to Snape's reaction. He's surprised and hurt. That's what
> "stircken" implies. Is he surprised that DD would implicitly insult
> his House, evidently equating it with Death Eaters? (IMO, Karkaroff,
> despite his name and his profession as Durmstrang headmaster, was a
> Hogwarts student at one time and most likely a Slytherin.) 

Montavilla47:
I don't know why you'd assume that Karkaroff went to Hogwarts
at all, let alone that he was sorted in Slytherin.  He seems to know 
everyone, sure, but that seems to be case regardless in the wizarding
world.  Everyone know everybody, except for Harry.


Carol:
>Or does he
> hate Gryffindor so much that he he's hurt by the idea of being Sorted
> there? I think it's the first. Slytherin was a home to him and he
> still has Slytherin friends, including the Malfoys. His experience
> with Gryffindors, in contrast, has not been cordial. I suppose it's
> rather like a man saying in the presence of the woman he's speaking
> of, "She should have been born a man." 

Montavilla47:
Well, the analogy I like to make is someone saying to Jesse Jackson,
"That's mighty white of you, brother."

Carol:
>In the speaker's mind, it's a
> compliment. In the listener's mind, especially if she's happy being a
> woman, it's both a compliment and an insult. But even that won't do
> because men and women aren't traditional enemies. Maybe a Syrian
> saying of an Israeli Jew, "He should have been born a Muslim" or vice
> versa? I can't think of a good analogy, but, obviously, both Snape and
> DD are thinking only of two Houses. DD has been speaking of courage.
> Obviously, he doesn't mean that Snape should have been Sorted into
> Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw.
> 
> To me, it's just another example of DD's tactlessness. He lectures
> other people on their manners (Vernon Dursley and the Carrows, for
> example), but his own could use some improvement. His sense of his own
> superiority is part of it, I think, but old age may be part of it,
> too. He says something to Harry in OoP about forgetting what it's like
> to be young. He's forgotten not only what it's like to be a teenager
> but what it's like to be in your mid-thirties (Snape is not quite 35
> at the time).

Montavilla47:
I agree that it's tactless, but I'm just not sure we're intended to read
it that way.  Dumbledore isn't talking to himself.  He's speaking to 
Snape and he's speaking very gently, which says to me that he's trying
to be very tactful.  He's pleased with Snape's courage and determination
to do the right thing (even if he hates that stupid Potter kid).  So
Dumbledore tries to come up with something complimentary to say
about Snape and the best he can come up with is that Snape isn't as
cowardly and useless as the House he was sorted into--and what a 
shame it was that poor Snape was judged too soon.

Mind you, maybe JKR's intention is to get us to hate Dumbledore
at that point.  If so, she definitely succeeded with me. But--and 
maybe this comes from years of trying to explain exactly what
I found offensive about Dumbledore's remark about Merope 
not being as courageous as Lily--I get the feeling we're supposed
to view Dumbledore's compliment as a what he intends it to be and 
not as an offensive slap.

Carol:
> As for Snape finally realizing that he'd been led astray long ago,
> that's a thought that hadn't occurred to me. I don't think that
> happens or we'd see a change in his attitude toward both the
> Slytherins and the Gryffindors.

Montavilla47:
You make a very good point here.  Unless the point of all that is
that Snape is still too horrible a person to be able to change and 
show the proper attitude toward Slytherin and Gryffindor.

> montavilla47: 
> > I mean, I don't think it would have made Snape's life much better to
> have been sorted into Slytherin. 
> 
> Carol:
> 
> Erm, Gryffindor, do you mean?
> 
Montavilla47:
Erm, yes.  Sorry about that!







From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 21:53:10 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 21:53:10 -0000
Subject: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <9DE57F90EBC54A879F7C68E31CEADC5C@homemain>
Message-ID: <gmaec6+31eq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185644

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "k12listmomma" <k12listmomma at ...> wrote:
>
> > Carol responds:
> > I think, though, that you've forgotten that Kingsley Obliviated
> > Marietta, so she has no way of telling Madam Pomfrey what happened.
> 
> Shelley:
> Are you assuming, then, that this Obliviation is permanent- that Marietta 
> would have no way of remembering EVER that she betrayed the DA? 

Montavill47:
Every other Obliviation is permanent.  Why would Marietta's be any
different?

Shelly:
> I think Cho and the others would have told her or she 
> would have figured it out from the events that happened. Certainly, if she 
> had no way of remembering that she was a snitch, then she would have asked 
> her friends, or her classmates from the DA who knew would have told her, why 
> that word was on her face. Are you assuming that no one thought to tell her 
> why she had that word on her face? I still think she would have had the 
> choice to be sorry for her actions, or merely feel like she was the victim, 
> once she had learned from the others what she had done. 

Montavilla47:
I agree that whether or not the Obliviate was permanent, it's likely
that the other D.A. members would have let Marietta know what she
had done--and how they felt about it.  Moreover, Cho later defends
Marietta's action by mentioning Marietta's mother--so Marietta 
must have explained her actions to Cho afterwards.

Shelley:
> I think the pustules were not the only 
> punishment she recieved- surely she had some dirty looks and nasty comments 
> of "thanks for the betrayal" from the other DA members once word got out of 
> whom had done it, given all the severity of rule changes that followed for 
> the whole school. I think the DA and it's betrayal was such a huge thing 
> that the whole school knew about it through the grapevine, and even students 
> who weren't in DA might not be sympathetic to her.

Montavilla47:
Yes, what happens to Marietta is similar to the punishment usually
given to women who collaborate with the enemy--she is marked as 
a traitor.   During WWII, women were sometimes shorn of their hair to
mark them.  And, of course that wasn't the only punishment.  Shaving 
their heads made them easy targets for anyone who wanted to get 
back at a collaborator, whether by insult, spitting, refusal of trade or 
services, or even violence.

At a school level, it's not unthinkable that Marietta would have 
become a target for pranks, especially with such profilic pranksters
as Fred and George Weasley about.  But I'm not going to assume that
they did.  Maybe the marking was enough to satisfy their ire.


> > Carol:
> > I don't think that the hex will reverse itself. There's no indication
> > that it has done so in the books. <snip>
> 
> Shelley:
>  <snip>
> I 
> think Pomfrey missed that this was a curse, which required a different 
> treatment than the usual hex of pimples. I don't think it would have been 
> hard to cure Marietta at all.

Montavilla47:
I don't think it really matters why Marietta's disfigurement isn't cured.  The
fact remains that the disfigurement is there months afterwards.  It may be
marginally better (since she's graduated from a balaclava to heavy makeup), 
but it's still there, and we never see her completely cured.  For all intents and
purposes, the disfigurement is permanent.

We also see Harry taking satisfaction in seeing that her markings are 
still there months later.

And, for me, that crosses a line from an amusing punishment to a 
vindictive one.  If it doesn't for someone, then it doesn't.  For some 
readers, Snape crossed the line when he singled Harry out in the first
potions class.  He didn't do that for me.  I didn't think he was being 
at all mature, good, and certainly not "pure" when he did that--but, 
for me, I could still like and admire him later on.  I understand, 
though, if other readers can't.









From a_svirn at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 22:05:55 2009
From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 22:05:55 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <BLU111-DAV89BD57D6B741D2EB71AF1CAC20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <gmaf43+1lka@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185645

> > a_svirn:
> > Which, in turn, would mean that Slytherin House is a very 
> > bad proposition. Dumbledore is basically saying, "We wrote 
> > you off too early, Severus. You are not all that rotten we 
> > shouldn't have lumped you with all the other baddies after
> > all". Whether Rowling shares his opinion on both Slytherin
> > and Severus is debatable; however if Dumbledore himself 
> > felt this way, the question is why on earth did he tolerate
> > the existence of this house of baddies much less expose 
> > students in his care to its corrupting influence. 
> 
> 
> Cyril:
> 
> My thoughts on this are slightly different - and it links 
> back to the qualities Gryffindors and Slytherins as per the 
> Sorting Hat.
> 
> Do not have the books for exact quotes, but essentially, 
> Gryffindors are brave at heart, and should fight on behalf 
> of their fellow men.
> 
> Slytherins however, are more of the nature to fight only for 
> their own benefit, and not for others or for a common good.
> 
> However, Snape was actually fighting in the background for 
> the destruction of Voldemort, and in the bargain was putting 
> his own life at stake, demonstrating a courageous quality 
> expected from Gryffindors, and not Slytherins.

a_svirn:
Um, but wouldn't that imply that Slytherins are wusses? At best? You 
are so brave, Severus, you deserved better than Slytherin, we were 
too hasty to sort you. No one says that Hermione was sorted too early 
or wasted her intelligence on Gryffindor. Her brains are credit both 
to her and her house. Just like her ambition, just like Harry's 
ambition and "certain disregard for rules".  No one is surprised 
about a Hufflepuff being brave or a Ravenclaw being loyal. Yet, by 
Dumbledore's reasoning a brave Slytherin is clearly an anomaly. And 
there is general consensus among non-slytherins that a good Slytherin 
is a near impossibility. 
a_svirn.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 22:23:47 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 22:23:47 -0000
Subject: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmaec6+31eq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmag5j+7rqv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185646

Montavilla47:
< HUGE SNIP>

> And, for me, that crosses a line from an amusing punishment to a 
> vindictive one.  If it doesn't for someone, then it doesn't.  For 
some 
> readers, Snape crossed the line when he singled Harry out in the first
> potions class.  He didn't do that for me.  I didn't think he was 
being 
> at all mature, good, and certainly not "pure" when he did that--but, 
> for me, I could still like and admire him later on.  I understand, 
> though, if other readers can't.
>

Alla:

Sure, but as one of the readers who has no problem with Marietta's 
punishment whatsoever just wanted to note that I certainly do not find 
Marietta's punishment amusing. I never felt that it was a prank or 
anything like that.

I think it was deserved, sure, but I was not laughing.

And yes, I hear you about Snape heh. I would never be able to analogize 
the two, but I certainly understand the idea of not being able to 
stomach something that character did.

No matter how great Alessan from Tigana is portrayed and fighter for a 
good cause, etc, what he did to Erlein to me crossed all good that he 
did, I however know that my reaction is sort of extreme. Not meaning to 
say that your reaction is extreme of course just to say that I get the 
idea when no matter how many good things character does, something bad 
will overweight all that good in your (anybody) mind.

Alla




From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk  Tue Feb  3 22:41:51 2009
From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 22:41:51 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <983E453E9F6A46518DBC2AC79AF6090E@homemain>
Message-ID: <gmah7f+tppp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185647



> > Montavilla47:
> > There is a Slytherin (I think it's Malcolm Baddock) who is hissed by
> > Fred and George as he is sorted into Slytherin.

>--- Shelley wrote: 
> So, I took that passage to say that Fred and George knew 
> something about that Syltherin that Harry didn't yet know, something  
> that would have earned that student a hiss of disapproval. 

Pip!Squeak:
In support of this: look at his name. MALcolm BADdock. Given JKR's love 
of names that reveal something about a character, I'd guess that young 
Mal is a bad 'un. {g}

Pip






From 12newmoons at gmail.com  Tue Feb  3 23:06:00 2009
From: 12newmoons at gmail.com (kneazlecat54)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 23:06:00 -0000
Subject: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gm5qh7+iup7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmaiko+hs6k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185648

<snip>
>  > zanooda:
<snip>Narcissa was also the first to recognize Hermione <snip> and she 
seemed rather excited about it. I don't see any indication that she  
Draco to identify Harry.
> > 
> > Laura says:
> > 
<snip>At this point, she sees that her family is in mortal danger, and 
she's not willing to take any chances that might put especially her 
son at further risk.  Draco has gotten the message and won't do 
> > anything overly risky. <snip> So Draco refuses to identify Harry, 
then crosses the room and stands next to his mother, who drives the 
rest of the Malfoy family actions in the scene.
> 
> Magpie:
<snip> I think what zanooda was referring to was that Narcissa is 
keeping *Lucius* from taking a risk by calling Voldemort without a 
clear ID, thus backing up Draco's inability to say for sure who they 
are. Isn't Narcissa actually  encouraging of Draco to ID them? <snip>
>
Laura replies:

My reading is based on what I understand of the Malfoy family 
dynamics.  We see in HBP that Narcissa is willing to go against LV's 
wishes in order to protect Draco.  Narcissa is similar to Regulus in 
this situation:  once she sees exactly what it will cost her to let LV 
have his way, she backs out.  By the time Lucius gets out of Azkaban, 
he's broken and frightened.  Narcissa is the effective head of the 
house, and Draco, always the coward looking for a protector, knows it.  
He understands that Narcissa fears another mistake that could cost her 
family dearly, so he refuses to commit himself to something that is a 
huge risk to himself and his parents.  No one cares if the other two 
captives aren't Ron and Hermione, but everyone knows that LV is about 
out of patience at that point.  Narcissa's actions in the forest show 
that indeed, she had ceased caring whether LV got his way, as long as 
her son was safe.




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 00:04:45 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 00:04:45 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gma621+9rqf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmam2t+me6t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185649

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:


> I don't think that the hex will reverse itself. There's no 
> indication that it has done so in the books. 


zanooda:

Well, Carol, if you care even a little bit about JKR's interviews (me
- not so much :-)), she said in 2007 Web Chat that Marietta is now
pimple-free :-). The question was: "Did Marietta's pimply formation
ever fade?" Her answer was: "Eventually, but it left a few scars".


> Montavilla47 wrote:

> But didn't that all happen in the garden? That was my
> impression-- that he and Dumbledore were talking in the garden
> during the Yule Ball.


zanooda:

No, they talked in the entrance hall :-).


> Montavilla47 wrote:

> I don't know why you'd assume that Karkaroff went to 
> Hogwarts at all, let alone that he was sorted in Slytherin. 


zanooda:

I was also (I mean like Carol :-)) under an impression that Karkaroff
used to be a Hogwarts student. It's just the way he talks about it
upon arrival: "Dear old Hogwarts. How good it is to be here, how
good...". Sounds like something an alumnus would say. Or a former
teacher :-). Of course, I may be wrong. In this case, we can always
assume that Karkaroff once attended some inter-school seminar held at
Hogwarts... :-).






From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 00:47:06 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 00:47:06 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gmaf43+1lka@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmaoia+qia3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185650

> > Cyril:
> > 
> > My thoughts on this are slightly different - and it links 
> > back to the qualities Gryffindors and Slytherins as per the 
> > Sorting Hat.
> > 
> > Do not have the books for exact quotes, but essentially, 
> > Gryffindors are brave at heart, and should fight on behalf 
> > of their fellow men.
> > 
> > Slytherins however, are more of the nature to fight only for 
> > their own benefit, and not for others or for a common good.
> > 
> > However, Snape was actually fighting in the background for 
> > the destruction of Voldemort, and in the bargain was putting 
> > his own life at stake, demonstrating a courageous quality 
> > expected from Gryffindors, and not Slytherins.
> 
> a_svirn:
> Um, but wouldn't that imply that Slytherins are wusses? At best? 
You 
> are so brave, Severus, you deserved better than Slytherin, we were 
> too hasty to sort you. <snip>
> a_svirn.
>

jkoney:
I don't believe it's saying that Slytherins are wusses but more like 
what Cyril said. They are brave in that they fight for themselves and 
the people they are backing. 

Slytherins always came across to me as the type who are the ones in 
the backround using their cunning to get what they want. That's not 
to say they won't stand for what they believe in, just that they 
aren't going to always be upfront about it.

As opposed to Gryffindor bravery which is more of the upfront, "once 
more unto the breach" type of people. 

Both types are needed, but it's not always as easy to see the 
Slytherin type or what they believe in.

What Dumbledore was saying is that Snape is becoming more of the 
Gryffindor type even if he has to hide it for his role as a spy.

jkoney







From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 00:56:33 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 00:56:33 -0000
Subject: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmaec6+31eq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmap41+tn5g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185651

> Montavilla47:
> I don't think it really matters why Marietta's disfigurement isn't 
cured.  The
> fact remains that the disfigurement is there months afterwards.  It 
may be
> marginally better (since she's graduated from a balaclava to heavy 
makeup), 
> but it's still there, and we never see her completely cured.  For 
all intents and
> purposes, the disfigurement is permanent.
> 
> We also see Harry taking satisfaction in seeing that her markings 
are 
> still there months later.
> 
> And, for me, that crosses a line from an amusing punishment to a 
> vindictive one.

jkoney
I didn't have any problems with Marietta's punishment. She had the 
option of just quitting the DA and not doing anything. 

Instead she went and squealed to Umbridge which ended up causing 
Dumbledore to leave the school. It could have been worse if it was 
Harry who was kicked out and possibly had his wand broken.

Her actions could have had the whole group expelled. What was their 
crime? Getting together to study a course where they weren't learning 
anything.

Montavilla47:
  For some 
> readers, Snape crossed the line when he singled Harry out in the 
first
> potions class.  He didn't do that for me.  I didn't think he was 
being 
> at all mature, good, and certainly not "pure" when he did that--
but, 
> for me, I could still like and admire him later on.  I understand, 
> though, if other readers can't.
>
jkoney:
The difference is that Snape was an adult, the teacher of the class 
and he singled out a student in the first class. Then his behavior 
doesn't get any better as time goes on. He also is horrible to 
Neville a poor student and to Hermione a great student.

I don't think we need to list his actions to show that he acted as an 
arrogant, petty, vile little man in his interactions with students 
that weren't in his house.
jkoney






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 01:49:12 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 01:49:12 -0000
Subject: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <9DE57F90EBC54A879F7C68E31CEADC5C@homemain>
Message-ID: <gmas6o+lh33@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185652

Carol responds:
> > I think, though, that you've forgotten that Kingsley Obliviated
Marietta, so she has no way of telling Madam Pomfrey what happened.
> 
> Shelley:
> Are you assuming, then, that this Obliviation is permanent- that
Marietta would have no way of remembering EVER that she betrayed the
DA? <snip>

Carol.
In a word, yes. There would be no point in Lockhart's Obliviating the
people whose exploits he took credit for or in the Obliviators
modifying Muggles's memories when they saw Giants or Wizards if the
Obliviating was not permanent. And the very word "obliviate" ties in
with oblivion, the state of being forgotten. Her memory has been wiped
clean, permanently, of everything relating to her betrayal of the DA.
 
> Shelley:
> No, we see in the books that the specific remedy must be applied for
the particular ailment- a beezor stone removing poison, for example.
Miss the exact remedy, you don't get results, but that is not to say
that the exact cure is "hard".

Carol responds:

Possibly not the best example since a Bezoar, as Snape informs us,
works for *most* poisons, not just one. Some have specific antidotes,
others none, but a Bezoar is as close as the WW comes to a panacea for
poisons. Similarly, "Finite Incantatem" works to stop most
spells--minor hexes or jinxes, anyway. Snape stops all the jinxes and
hexes in the room with that countercurse during the Duelling Club
scene in CoS. Some spells, like Stupefy, have their own countercurse.
(Sectum Sempra has an elaborate songlike or chantlike countercurse
that most likely only Snape knows.) But that doesn't mean that someone
like Snape wouldn't know a countercurse that would work for Hermione's
hex--or be able to work one out once he recognized the spell. If you
recall, Flitwick and McGonagall stripped off all the spells that had
been put on the Firebolt looking for a curse or hex, and Snape
identified and removed the curse on both the opal necklace and Marvolo
Gaunt's ring. I doubt that he'd have any trouble removing Hermione's
hex, whether she looked it up in the library or invented it herself.
Snape, after all, invented his own hexes and countercurses. He can
think as Hermione did in that respect and he has much more experience.
But the whole question is hypothetical since he doesn't seem to have
been given the opportunity to help Marietta.

Shelley:
> I hardly think that Madame Pomfrey, being a school nurse, would know
the solution for EVERY hex or jinx that the students would come up
with, especially since they have an entire library full of them at
their disposal, should they be smart enough to look some up, as
Hermione was. I think Pomfrey missed that this was a curse, which
required a different treatment than the usual hex of pimples. I don't
think it would have been hard to cure Marietta at all.

Carol responds:
Technically, it was a jinx since Hermione jinxed a piece of parchment,
but I don't think the exact category matters. What Madam Pomfrey
didn't know was how Marietta acquired the pustules. Surely if there
was a hex to spell "SNEAK" across someone's face in the library, it
wouldn't have been hard to look up. I think that 1) Hermione invented
the hex/jinx and 2) Madam Pomfrey didn't know that the pustules had
been caused indirectly by the breaking of a vow. Snape, familiar with
the Unbreakable Vow, might have known more than Madam P. about the
breaking of magical contracts just as we know he knew much more about
Dark Magic. I wouldn't underestimate Madam Pomfrey's knowledge--she
certainly would be familiar with the schoolkid hexes that the kids
routinely used against one another. She certainly knew how to deal
with Densuageo, for example, when Draco tried to use that hex on Harry
and accidentally hit Hermione. Many of those minor curses, regardless
of designation as jinx or hex (JKR is remarkably inconsistent in her
terminology, anyway), would respond to Finite Incantatem or wear off
on their own. The others she could probably deal with. But, like the
curse on the opal necklace, this one was clearly beyond her expertise,
not because it was Dark magic (it was Hermione's spell, after all) but
because she had never encountered it before and it did not respond to
the usual measures. I don't think she had the skill to recognize and
treat an unknown curse, but if she had known that it was a jinx on a
piece of parchment, she might have known where to look. Lacking that
information, she was like a physician looking for the virus that's
infecting a poison victim. Snape, OTH, might have had a clearer idea
where to look or what spell to cast, but his expertise apparently
wasn't requested. (He was the Potions master at that time, for one
thing, and the DADA teacher, Umbridge, was as baffled as Pomfrey.)

Carol earlier:
> > Since Marietta's mother was at this point a Ministry employee
(what happened to her when the DEs took over, we don't know), I
suspect that her mother would have sent her to St. Mungo's or had
sufficient influence to get special advice from a Healer, but, if
that's the case, it didn't help much.
> 
> Shelley:
> I don't get that either from the books- we are notified when people 
> disappear from the school to go to St. Mungos, and we are not told
of that 
> of Marietta, leaving me to believe that she stayed at Hogwarts.

Carol:
I meant over the summer, between the time she was cursed and the time
she returned to school in HBP wearing a balaclava. If I were her
mother, I'd have taken her to St. Mungo's immediately. But if she went
there, they, too, were stymied.


 If Madame 
> Pomfrey believed that she could fix it with Dittany, or some other
topical solution, and Marietta was in no way prevented from still
taking classes and doing her school work from this (on the surface
appearance, very minor) ailment, then there would be no real "need" to
go to St. Mungos. 

Carol responds:

I don't follow you. Madam Pomfrey would certainly have tried dittany,
and perhaps whatever she put on Bill Weasley's injuries to prevent
scarring, too. It's patently obvious that whatever Madam Pomfrey tried
didn't work, and she, being a conscientious school nurse, or whatever
her title is, would have tried everything that she knew. Marietta went
home with no improvement. There was every need to go to St. Mungo's.
Marietta was permanently disfigured. These aren't pimples, they're
pustules, and they seoll the word "Sneak."

I said absolutely nothing about Marietta being unable to do her
schoolwork (though I imagine that she was too distraught to
concentrate when she first saw her face) and no one at the school but
Harry, Ron, and Hermione really knew what caused them--and they
weren't saying. (Actually, only Hermione knew the actual spell but the
other two knew about the jinxed parchment. So Marietta would have gone
until the end of the school year with only Madam Pomfrey's failed
treatments. Then her mother would almost certainly have taken her to
St. Mungo's, but that failed, too. Either that, or her mother didn't
take her for treatment, and I can't conceive of a mother being that
cruel to her daughter.

Speculation, of course, but one of two things happened. Either she
went to St. Mungo's and they couldn't help her, so she still had the
pustules, or she didn't go to St. Mungo's and still had the pustules
for that reason. Either way, she still had the pustules, not only at
the beginning but at the end of HBP.

Shelley:

> Thus, I don't think her parents would have been notified that she
needed hospital treatment to begin with. Madane Pomfrey would have
dismissed or underestimated the severity of the pustules, thinking she
could still fix them. I think her parents were told "she's been hexed
with pimples, we are working on it, no need to be concerned". We (as
the readership) know she's been cursed, but do the others who were
taking care of Marietta realize that? No, they wouldn't.

Carol:
I think we're talking at cross purposes here. I never said that her
parents would be notified. I'm talking about the mother's reaction
when she saw her daughter get off the Hogwarts Express with her face
concealed by a balaclava. And I don't think that Madam Pomfrey would
continue to believe that she could still do something. It's clear in
OoP itself that both she and Umbridge are at a loss. I don't think the
problem is that it's a curse rather than a hex or jinx. We're told
quite clearly that it's a mere jinx that Hermione placed on the
parchment. I think they're looking in the wrong direction for
something akin to the boil-causing hex that Harry meant to cast on
Draco. Madam Pomfrey had no problem dealing with that one. I think
that if Madam Pomfrey (or Snape) had known about the parchment, they
could have solved the problem. But Obliviated Marietta didn't even
know what she'd done to trigger the jinx/hex/curse and never knew
about the parchment. And Hermione, who knew all about it, wasn't about
to fess up. 

> Shelley:
> Again, I don't get that Marietta "deserved" it, so that people in
power and position continued to punish her, just that the real
solution was missed. 

Carol:
Then why are we arguing? I think the same thing. I *speculated* that
DD or Snape might not have tried to help her, but more likely Snape
didn't know about it and DD, being away from the school, had other
matters on his mind. I do think that their expertise could have helped
her, but for whatever reason, it wasn't offered. For one thing,
Umbridge, being herself the DADA teacher, never thought of calling in
the Potions master to tell him that the pustules had appeared out of
nowhere when Marietta revealed the DA's headquarters. I think he would
have recognized a broken contract of some sort as the trigger.
Obviously, it wasn't a hex cast by someone present at the time
Marietta was speaking to Umbridge. But, yes, the real solution was
missed because Madam Pomfrey didn't have sufficient information and
Umbridge, DADA teacher or not, didn't have sufficient expertise. DD or
Snape might have figured it out, but they weren't called in. Marietta
herself was no help whatever.

Shelley:
> I don't see Snape being consulted for any "routine" medical matter,
only life-threatening, immediate dangers. The teachers seem to be very
clear about who has which job, and seem not to step over each other's
positions out of respect. Snape would only be called in as the
"expert" when he was needed- who would think to call him for a hex of
pimples if that is what Madame Pomfrey thought it was? Snape would
have been affronted to be asked to take care of such a small matter!

Carol:
I don't think he would have been affronted to investigate a matter
that was beyond someone else's expertise, but I do agree that the
teachers are clear about who has which job. If they suspected Dark
magic, something beyond the ability of Madam Pomfrey to deal with, the
logical person to deal with it was, oops!--Umbridge herself. Snape
dealt with Dark magic in HBP not only because he knew how to deal with
it better than anyone else but because it was his job, just as it was
(theoretically) Lockhart's job to deal with Slytherin's monster in
CoS, All I'm saying is that if he'd been called in, which he clearly
wasn't, or volunteered his services, which he clearly didn't, the
pustule mystery might well have been solved.

Shelley: 
> We (as the readership) know what must be done to help her, but this
a story that Rowling tells, and the people in the story missed the
solution, and thus Marietta continues to suffer from the pustules
months later.

Carol:
Exactly. Had someone known to ask Hermione, the problem would have
been solved, assuming that she knew the countercurse. If not, just
knowing the jinx/hex/curse itself would have enabled a knowledgeable
Witch or Wizard like Snape to work one out. But knowing that the
parchment itself had been jinxed/hexed/cursed might in itself have
been sufficient. Through a combination of circumstances, including
that Marietta had been Obliviated and her friend Cho didn't know about
the parchment (and those who did know weren't talking) the pustules
could not be cured, at least not by Madam Pomfrey, who doesn't seem to
be one for solving mysteries.

And whether or not she went to St. Mungo's, the Healers would not have
had that key piece of information, either. Which is not to say that
she didn't go there. I'm betting that she did.

Carol, suspecting that the pustules will be permanent because the
mystery will never be solved




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Feb  4 02:44:05 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 02:44:05 -0000
Subject: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gmaiko+hs6k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmavdl+5c3c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185653

> > Magpie:
> <snip> I think what zanooda was referring to was that Narcissa is 
> keeping *Lucius* from taking a risk by calling Voldemort without a 
> clear ID, thus backing up Draco's inability to say for sure who 
they 
> are. Isn't Narcissa actually  encouraging of Draco to ID them? 
<snip>
> >
> Laura replies:
<snip>
Narcissa is the effective head of the 
> house, and Draco, always the coward looking for a protector, knows 
it.  
> He understands that Narcissa fears another mistake that could cost 
her 
> family dearly, so he refuses to commit himself to something that is 
a 
> huge risk to himself and his parents.  No one cares if the other 
two 
> captives aren't Ron and Hermione, but everyone knows that LV is 
about 
> out of patience at that point.  Narcissa's actions in the forest 
show 
> that indeed, she had ceased caring whether LV got his way, as long 
as 
> her son was safe.

Magpie:
But this isn't only about how you think the dynamics of the family 
work in general. (Certainly in the opening scene the Malfoys are 
clearly showing all the behavior you're describing here, but this is 
a different scene.) Narcissa brings them in, dragging Draco into it 
by name, confident that he can id them and so put them back in LV's 
good graces. Draco knows perfectly well who these people are. 
Narcissa is encouraging him to identify all three--she's not warning 
him not to make a mistake so much as she's encouraging him to agree 
with her that this is Hermione, Harry's friend. Draco's following 
orders in the scene, but he's also passively resisting going past his 
limits. He's not looking Harry in the face (despite Narcissa and 
Lucius telling him to look closely to see if he can id him). The 
concession to his parents is in his weak agreement. He says, "Yeah, I 
guess so. Maybe" because he's pushed. Narcissa isn't acting like 
Draco better not make a mistake that I remember, she acts like she 
wants him to back her up, but he'll only do so as weakly as possible 
so she's not sure. Draco's being passive, but he's exerting some 
passive control with it.

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 02:51:41 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 02:51:41 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gma9uq+sgm4@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmavrt+up89@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185654


> Montavilla47:
> 
> Um, yes. But didn't that all happen in the garden?  That was my
impression--that he and Dumbledore were talking in the garden during
the Yule Ball.

Carol:
Oh, sorry. I thought you meant the walk in the garden in DH when Snape
protested that DD took too much for granted and maybe he (Snape)
didn't want to do it anymore. But I don't think that the scene we're
referring to took place among the rosebushes. Snape watches as Fleur
ad Roger come in from the grounds. I picture Snape and DD standing in
the entrance hall or on the stairs. Not that it matters.
 
> Montavilla47:
> I don't know why you'd assume that Karkaroff went to Hogwarts at
all, let alone that he was sorted in Slytherin.  He seems to know 
everyone, sure, but that seems to be case regardless in the wizarding
world.  Everyone know everybody, except for Harry.

Carol responds:
I don't think he's from Durmstrang or he wouldn't have become a Death
Eater. He speaks English very well, not with an accent like Krum and
the other Durmstrang students. And when Dumbledore greets him as he
and his students arrive in GoF, he says, "Dumbledore, how are you, my
dear fellow, how are you?" which sounds as if he knows DD well and,
moreover, sounds like an Englishman speaking. (Sidenote: a lot of
other Hogwarts students and alumni have continental European names,
notably Malfoy and Lestrange. The Patil twins sound as if they're from
India. We can't judge the school they went to by their names alone.)
More important, Karkaroff adds, "Dear old Hogwarts. How good it is to
be her. How good" (Gof Am. ed. 247)--an odd thing to say if Hogwarts
is not his alma mater.

Durmstrang students in general don't seem to have much interest in
England despite Dumbledore's hopes for uniting the schools against
Voldemort. Krum is present for the attack on the Weasleys, but he
never joins in the fight as far as we know. Grindelwald may have had
his eye on England, but he went after continental Europe first.
Karkaroff, however, became a Death Eater--in England. Yes, he went to
Durmstrang to teach and became headmaster (no indication how long the
process took), but that was after he was let out of Azkaban and, no
doubt, wanted to get as far away from England as possible, not to
mention that he'd have had a bit of trouble finding work there after
his stint in Azkaban.

At any rate, I don't have any proof that Karkaroff is from Hogwarts,
but I think that "dear old Hogwarts" indicates that he is. And if he's
from Hogwarts, he was probably a Slytherin like most of the other
Death Eaters. He seems to be on intimate terms with Lucius Malfoy if
that means anything. (I'm not sure what to make of his beinf on
first-name terms with Snape, who seems to be considerably younger
given Karkaroff's gray hair in GoF. maybe he's Malfoy's age and
Azkaban turned him prematurely gray.)


Montavilla47:
> I agree that it's tactless, but I'm just not sure we're intended to
read it that way.  Dumbledore isn't talking to himself.  He's speaking
to Snape and he's speaking very gently, which says to me that he's
trying to be very tactful.  

Carol:
I went back to look at the conversation and I see why you think he's
talking to Snape. He says, "You know, sometimes I think we Sort too
soon." But "you know" isn't necessarily addressed to "you," the other
person in the conversation. It's more of a transition, like "by the
way," to his own train of thought. I still think it's more of an aside
than a direct comment to Snape like the remark that he's a far braver
man than Karkaroff. If he thinks at all about the effect of his words,
I'm sure he considers them a compliment. He turns away too soon to
realize that Snape sees them otherwise. I don't mean that he acts
angry as if he's been deliberately insulted, but he's clearly
surprised and hurt. That's what "stricken" means--and I think it's
quite perceptive of JKR to have him react that way. (We know that
*she* would consider it a great compliment to be Sorted into
Gryffindor, but she understands, as DD clearly does not, that Snape
sees matters differently.

Montavilla47:
> He's pleased with Snape's courage and determination to do the right
thing (even if he hates that stupid Potter kid). So Dumbledore tries
to come up with something complimentary to say about Snape and the
best he can come up with is that Snape isn't as cowardly and useless
as the House he was sorted into--and what a shame it was that poor
Snape was judged too soon.

Carol:
Maybe. But he's already said all the needs to say on the matter, that
Snape is a far braver man than Igor Karkaroff. Better to have left it
at that. (I don't think that DD thinks much about Snape's feelings at
all, frankly. He's all intellect himself and only occasionally becomes
angry or teary-eyed. He's not a kindly old man, always worried about
the effect of his words on others (though he can manipulate a crowd,
as shown by his speeches to the students). He doesn't understand
someone like Snape, who's always seething under the surface and would
probably give way to his emotions much more often if it weren't for
carefully cultivated self-control and Occlumency. Just my opinion.

Montavilla47: 
> Mind you, maybe JKR's intention is to get us to hate Dumbledore at
that point.  If so, she definitely succeeded with me. But--and maybe
this comes from years of trying to explain exactly what I found
offensive about Dumbledore's remark about Merope not being as
courageous as Lily--I get the feeling we're supposed to view
Dumbledore's compliment as a what he intends it to be and not as an
offensive slap.

Carol:
I'm sure that she didn't intend for us to hate Dumbledore, and I
don't. Well, not for that remark, anyway. I felt a lot of anger at him
after DH and I still don't like some of the things he did, but I don't
hold them against him. (I don't like the remark about Merope, either,
BTW.) It's hard to know what the author intended of course, but I
think we're supposed to understand that Dumbledore, like many tactless
people, means no harm. To him, being Sorted into Gryffindor is a good
thing, synonymous with courage and chivalry. And Slytherin is, well,
the House of Tom Riddle and his ancestor, Salazar Slytherin. It simply
doesn't occur to him that his valued teacher and spy, who loved Lily
Potter and has promised to protect Harry, might see the Houses more
than a bit differently.
> 
Carol earlier:
> > As for Snape finally realizing that he'd been led astray long ago,
that's a thought that hadn't occurred to me. I don't think that
happens or we'd see a change in his attitude toward both the
Slytherins and the Gryffindors.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> You make a very good point here.

Carol:
Thanks.

Montavilla47:
>  Unless the point of all that is that Snape is still too horrible a
person to be able to change and show the proper attitude toward
Slytherin and Gryffindor. <snip>

Carol:
Maybe, but I don't think so. It's "The Prince's Tale," after all, the
chapter in which she shows us who Snape really was. And it's these
memories that prompt Harry to defend the now-dead Snape publicly, to
Voldemort and the school and the people of Hogsmeade. No, I don't
think anyone would see his reaction, which is not anger or resentment
but pain at a perceived slap in the face, as an indication that he's a
horrible person. Gryffindor supporters may see him as deluded, but he
didn't start plotting revenge against Dumbledore for the accidental
insult. He must know that Dumbledore didn't do it deliberately.

Carol, glad to be discussing Snape instead of wands!





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 09:11:06 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:11:06 -0000
Subject: Personality-based Sort - Impact on House Rivalry (was Re: CHAPDISC:
In-Reply-To: <B9552F4104F043D09C9F79E3E12A1789@d600xpp>
Message-ID: <gmbm3a+kvvs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185655

>>Bruce wrote:

>I wonder if JKR knows anything about these, and if they had any 
impact on her sorting? Meyers-Briggs breaks people down into 16 
different groupings, and that is divisible by four.

Joey:

It is possible that JKR knows at least about Myers-Briggs because it 
is, for the most part, a certain topic for college students who study 
the subject of Organizational Behaviour. She might have also taken 
some pains to understand the various theories that explain human 
emotions, needs, etc. to supplement some of her views or ideas. As 
per me, every fiction writer will have to be adept in some aspect of 
human psychology for him / her to do well.

What I had imagined was that JKR mulled over the various significant 
personalities (and related incidents) that made her life (especially 
school life) and derived the characters. For example, Hermione, Ron, 
Lockhart are some of the personalities that she derived from people 
whom she met in her life (including herself :-)). In the process, she 
might have also noticed that some of the personalities are somewhat 
alike when it comes to some key traits. And then, she might have 
wondered how it would be to group similar people together. I'm saying 
this because I've done that myself during many a self-introspection 
and have ended up grouping my friends under various categories! May 
be she got the pensieve idea also while she was doing this "mulling 
over" stuff. Just my imagination, of course. Only JKR can 
validate! :) 

Cheers, 
~Joey :)




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Thu Feb  5 05:16:27 2009
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 22:16:27 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
References: <gmas6o+lh33@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <9D0A38F0435846AB9E579A912D0CEFA1@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 185656

Carol wrote:
I don't want to get into the ethics of casting that spell or whether 
Marietta deserved it. Suffice it to say that it's one of those points that 
Shelley and I don't agree on and I don't want to get into another ping pong 
match.
and
Then why are we arguing? I think the same thing.

Shelley responds:
First, I would like to say that I was commented about Marietta's 
disfigurement, and not debating "anyone in particular" as to what they 
think. Secondly, I didn't think I was arguing, but discussing a book (wasn't 
that the purpose of this list?)

Carol, I disappointed that you first set me up as being in disagreement with 
you, and then ask why are we arguing with you when you agree with what I 
said. Please stick to discussing the books, and any point at the moment, 
because I certainly am not arguing any points from the prospective of 
"aligning" with anyone else's opinion, nor setting myself up in "opposition" 
to anyone. I'm discussing a book. It's my opinion that I could both agree 
and disagree with the same person, depending on the point that we were 
discussing at the moment, and I would never open a dialog by saying "I've 
disagreed with so-and-so in the past". It's totally irrelevant to the points 
we are making now.

That being said, I would like to clarify the timeline that I was discussing- 
Marietta's pimples (pustules) were there months later, and those "months 
later" occurred during the school year. Thus, I assumed that Madame Pomfrey 
was still (incorrectly) working on them, and that her parents hadn't been 
alerted that she needed St. Mungo's treatment. Now, if she sought treatment 
at St. Mungo's over the summer, we don't know. Someone can correct me if I 
have that timeline wrong- since my kids also read my books, I don't have 
them to look up exactly which passages show the original pustules, and the 
further passages that said she still had them to check for sure that it was 
the same school year.

Montavilla47:
I don't think it really matters why Marietta's disfigurement isn't cured. 
The fact remains that the disfigurement is there months afterwards.  It may 
be marginally better (since she's graduated from a balaclava to heavy 
makeup), but it's still there, and we never see her completely cured.  For 
all intents and purposes, the disfigurement is permanent.

Shelley:
No, I don't think that I can agree with that statement. I am thinking of 
Hermione's teeth that got shrunk back to (less than) their normal size. If 
the healer at the time immediately after the incident didn't shrink her 
teeth back (what if she was away for several days?), does that mean that 
Hermione was forever "doomed" of having such large teeth? What if the healer 
finally got around to shrinking her teeth months later? Would the proper 
treatment still work? I think it would have. Therefore, I don't think it 
matters when the correct remedy is applied, only that it IS applied. I still 
think Marietta had the chance to have the curse removed, and any pustules 
with it, once those adults in her life realized that they were dealing with 
a curse. I think the book was telling us that it merely hadn't happened YET.

I just think there are two issues here: her initial punishment of pustules 
and the word Sneak from her breaking of a contract; and the secondary 
punishment she received when the healer she sought failed to know the 
correct antidote. Blame the first on Hermione, yes, but the 2nd punishment 
wouldn't have happened if the people in the story had recognized it as a 
curse, and for that, I don't blame Hermione. Thus, in my way of thinking, 
Hermione is no less "bad" than any other child in that school who hexed or 
jinxed their classmates and the victim had to seek the school nurse to get 
her to correct it- they all had their "fates" of being normal again (or not) 
resting on Madame Pomfrey's ability to "fix them". Some even benefited from 
being hexed- look at Hermione's smaller teeth for example- she won out in 
the end because her new teeth were smaller than the originals, and nicer 
looking too! It only makes sense to me that if some won out, then others 
might have been disappointed in Madame Pomfrey. What if she hadn't been so 
sensitive to Hermione and shrunk her teeth, but not enough that they looked 
so good? Wouldn't she also be punished continually from the original hex 
that caused her teeth to enlarge, if after the "shrinking" the end result 
was large teeth that looked even worse than before? Wouldn't we also feel 
bad for her and hate the person who sent the original spell that did this to 
her? It strikes me that authors have various ways of making us loath a 
character or feel sorry for them, as we do Marietta, or celebrate with them, 
as we do with Hermione and her teeth.

Now, if the timeline included summer, and the pustules were still there, AND 
we had some PROOF that she had been to St. Mungo's with no solution, then I 
might agree that the pustules were permanent.

Alla:
Sure, but as one of the readers who has no problem with Marietta's 
punishment whatsoever just wanted to note that I certainly do not find 
Marietta's punishment amusing. I never felt that it was a prank or anything 
like that.

I think it was deserved, sure, but I was not laughing.

Shelley:
I echo that sentiment. She deserved whatever happened to her when the 
contract she signed was broken, as she did this to herself, but I also did 
not laugh at her. I could only imagine the continued and enduring shame that 
such pustules would bring (especially on a girl, who tend to value the 
beauty of their faces), and the resulting teasing from the others, and 
punishment like that is not a laughing matter.







From leahstill at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  5 11:02:19 2009
From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 11:02:19 -0000
Subject: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmap41+tn5g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmegvr+6btb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185657

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jkoney65" <jkoney65 at ...> wrote:
>> jkoney:
> The difference is that Snape was an adult, the teacher of the class 
> and he singled out a student in the first class. Then his behavior 
> doesn't get any better as time goes on. He also is horrible to 
> Neville a poor student and to Hermione a great student.
> 
> I don't think we need to list his actions to show that he acted as an 
> arrogant, petty, vile little man in his interactions with students 
> that weren't in his house.
> jkoney
>

Leah: 

You know, it's not exactly unheard of for a teacher to single out one 
student to answer questions.  It does happen in classrooms from time to 
time.  Is Snape just acting like a 'normal' teacher here? No, I don't 
think that he is.  Does he have reasons for singling out Harry? Yes:

1. It's his job to protect Harry - it would help to know what Harry is 
like.

2. The whole James/Lily thing and more specifically: Is Harry arrogant 
like his father? Is he a potions whizz like his mother?  

3. Is Harry a potential Dark Lord?  Snape recalls to Bellatrix at 
Spinners End that the Death Eaters thought Harry might be a potential 
leader.  If he does have Dark Lord potential, tnen Snape (and 
Dumbledore) need to know that, so again find out what he's like. Snape 
and Harry have already had an odd 'encounter' when Quirrellmort made 
Harry's scar hurt, but Harry attributed the feeling to Snape who was 
looking at him at that time.  Harry must have looked odd to Snape, and 
possibly Snape was already getting vibes himself from Quirrelmort.

And because we see this all from Harry's perspective, we are 
deliberately given the impression that Snape is setting out to 
humiliate Harry, but really, wny would Snape think Harry couldn't 
answer the questions?  He's had his potions textbooks for a month,and 
we know that in fact he has read them; we learn that when he's at the 
Dursleys' and are reminded of it again while Snape is questioning him.  
He just hasn't taken them in. The information required to answer has to 
be in the textbooks because Hermione, a muggleborn, manages to know all 
the answers. Snape also knew Harry's parents at school and very 
probably shared classes with them. We know from McGonagall that James 
was bright and did well at school, and we have Slughorn's opinion of 
Lily's potions prowess, so it is not unlikely that Harry is going to be 
a child who is interested and does well academically.  

Unfortunately, Harry doesn't know the answers and makes matters worse 
by cheeking Snape. We know this is how Harry copes with the Dursleys, 
but Snape doesn't. It's just cheek and raises the James factor in 
Snape's eyes.  From then on, it's downhill all the way.

As for Hermione, she is intelligent, hard working and very competent to 
say the least, but a great student?  She is disruptive (her behaviour 
in the first potions class is disruptive, but she gets no points taken. 
She goes on arguing, when she should keep quiet. She 'helps out' other 
students by helping to make their potions or virtually doing their 
homework for them, she allows them to copy her notes. This is not 
helpful behaviour as far as a teacher is concerned. She also lies and 
steals and is complicit in a plot to cause an explosion in the potions 
classroom (an action for which she (and the boys) would probably have 
been expelled from a muggle school.  However, IIRC, Snape may be nasty 
to Hermione on occasion, but we never hear that he gives her a bad mark 
for either her potions or her homework. She is not criticised in class 
for her work.  When Snape marks the mock OWLS paper, Hermione comments 
that she wouldn't expect the top mark on a first attempt at OWL 
standard, indicating that she has been given Exceeds Expectations, and 
that she considers this to be an entirely fair and proper mark. 

Snape and Neville require more time than I've got.  Neville is 
potentially lethal in a potions classroom and Snape goes about trying 
to remedy this in entirely the wrong way for Neville is a summary.  

It would be foolish to deny that Snape is never petty or vindictive or 
overdoes the sarcasm. But equally his behaviour can be exaggerated.  
The trio and Neville are not the only Gryffindor students in Snape's 
potions class but we don't see him reacting badly with any of the 
others.  In HBP, forthright Hufflepuff Ernie Macmillan, seems to have 
no problems with Snape as a teacher. There is a deliberate Harry filter 
in the presentation of Snape.  And yes, Snape is an adult, but he is, 
like Sirius, a damaged and emotionally retarded adult, who gets 
absolutely no teaching support from his headmaster.

Leah   




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 13:44:41 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 13:44:41 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmeq8t+4u49@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmeqg9+gqo6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185659

 Leah:
>
> You know, it's not exactly unheard of for a teacher to single out
one
> student to answer questions. It does happen in classrooms from
time to
> time. Is Snape just acting like a 'normal' teacher here? No, I
don't
> think that he is.

Alla:

How can I pass up the first lesson lol? Yes, it does happens in
classrooms from time to time, no in my opinion it should not happen
for the reasons that happened to Harry.

Leah:
>Does he have reasons for singling out Harry? Yes:

Alla:

Well, it depends on whether one considers any of those reasons to be
appropriate for doing what he did to Harry, doesn't it?

I don't.

Leah:
> 1. It's his job to protect Harry - it would help to know what Harry
is
> like.

Alla:

How does it help Snape to protect Harry to ask the questions we know
that he will not know? I argued that many times and I do not remember
that it was ever refuted with certainty. How would teachers tell
especially to muggleborns that there is homework? There is nothing to
that effect on that letter that Harry receives, isn't it?

YES, he read the books, he says that they are interesting, good for
him, no he probably did not read or did not remember the part to 
answer Snape's questions and as
far as I understand neither him no Hermione had to do that. But
Hermione reads and remembers everything, so the fact that she (and
nobody else) knows the answer really does not tell me that it means
homework was given.

> 2. The whole James/Lily thing and more specifically: Is Harry
arrogant
> like his father? Is he a potions whizz like his mother?

Alla:

So, Snape needed to give Harry some of preliminary humiliation if he
is "arrogant like his father"?

Leah:
> 3. Is Harry a potential Dark Lord? Snape recalls to Bellatrix at
> Spinners End that the Death Eaters thought Harry might be a
potential
> leader. If he does have Dark Lord potential, tnen Snape (and
> Dumbledore) need to know that, so again find out what he's like.
Snape
> and Harry have already had an odd 'encounter' when Quirrellmort
made
> Harry's scar hurt, but Harry attributed the feeling to Snape who
was
> looking at him at that time. Harry must have looked odd to Snape,
and
> possibly Snape was already getting vibes himself from Quirrelmort.

Alla:

I am sorry I find this reason to be funny. So, if Harry does not know
answers he is not a Dark Lord and Vice versa?

Leah:
> And because we see this all from Harry's perspective, we are
> deliberately given the impression that Snape is setting out to
> humiliate Harry, but really, wny would Snape think Harry couldn't
> answer the questions?

Alla:

And what is what happening on the first lesson reported
inaccuratedly? Which fact is distorted I wonder? No, I am not given
deliberate impression that Snape is set out to humiliate Harry, I
think this is a fact of what happened on the first lesson. As to why
Snape would think why he would not answer questions? Probably because
he did not give homework to the kids before they ever came to school?

Harry:
He's had his potions textbooks for a month,and
> we know that in fact he has read them; we learn that when he's at
the
> Dursleys' and are reminded of it again while Snape is questioning
him.
> He just hasn't taken them in.

Alla:

Or he took them in, after reading books for fun, just not every
little detail.

Leah:
>The information required to answer has to
> be in the textbooks because Hermione, a muggleborn, manages to know
all
> the answers.

Alla:

If anybody else would have known it, I would agree. Hermione to me
really is exception, we do know that she reads everything indeed,
nobody else seems to know, don't they?

Leah:
Snape also knew Harry's parents at school and very
> probably shared classes with them. We know from McGonagall that
James
> was bright and did well at school, and we have Slughorn's opinion
of
> Lily's potions prowess, so it is not unlikely that Harry is going
to be
> a child who is interested and does well academically.

Alla:

I fully believe that Snape majorly contributed to Harry NOT doing
well academincally in Potions by killing his interest forever on this
lesson. And he still gets such a good grade on OWLS. YAY Harry.


Leah:
> Unfortunately, Harry doesn't know the answers and makes matters
worse
> by cheeking Snape. We know this is how Harry copes with the
Dursleys,
> but Snape doesn't. It's just cheek and raises the James factor in
> Snape's eyes. From then on, it's downhill all the way. <SNIP>

Alla:

No, it is not just cheek, in my opinion it is not cheek at all. I
read it as Harry sincerely answering Snape that Hermione knows.

Leah:
<SNIP>
>There is a deliberate Harry filter
> in the presentation of Snape.

Alla:

Not in what narrator describes in my opinion, I do not believe
anything on first lesson is described incorrectly facts wise.

Leah:
>And yes, Snape is an adult, but he is,
> like Sirius, a damaged and emotionally retarded adult, who gets
> absolutely no teaching support from his headmaster.


Alla:

Funny, for years I thought Snape gets more teaching support from his
Headmaster than he ever deserves. Because I thought Dumbledore
deliberately turns blind eye on what he does to Harry and Neville,
and Hermione.

The only support I would have given Snape was to tell him to stop
doing what he does to Harry or he will be kicked out of Hogwarts, but
of course we know now that Dumbledore needed Snape and yes, before
you ask I hold Dumbledore responsible too.

JMO,

Alla






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  5 14:54:49 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 14:54:49 -0000
Subject: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <9D0A38F0435846AB9E579A912D0CEFA1@homemain>
Message-ID: <gmeujp+b5an@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185660

 
> That being said, I would like to clarify the timeline that I was 
discussing- 
> Marietta's pimples (pustules) were there months later, and 
those "months 
> later" occurred during the school year. 

Magpie:
Marietta still has pustules in the following book, after the summer. 
She's wearing heavy make-up to cover them, and Harry smirks when he 
sees her.

Which is why I assumed they were permenant. When I saw them at the 
end of OotP I think I just assumed they'd fade over time, but when 
JKR went to the trouble of giving Harry a smirking moment in the next 
book that indicated that I should assume they were on-going. JKR then 
by her admission "forgot about her" so left me with a last impression 
that her pustules were an on-going feature of hers. When asked in an 
interview she said eventually they faded but left a few scars and 
that she loathed a traitor.

I would put the responsibility for them totally on Hermione, just as, 
if Hermione's teeth proved unshrinkable, I would have considered 
Draco responsible. I assumed Draco used a known spell that anyone 
would know wouldn't be permenant while Hermione intentionally created 
one that would take years to fade. So Hermione scarred her face for 
life but only gave her pustules for months or years as punishment for 
telling about the DA.


-m




From leahstill at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  5 15:15:25 2009
From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 15:15:25 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmeqg9+gqo6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmevqd+cgag@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185661

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
>> Alla:
> 
> How does it help Snape to protect Harry to ask the questions we 
know
> that he will not know? I argued that many times and I do not 
remember
> that it was ever refuted with certainty. How would teachers tell
> especially to muggleborns that there is homework? There is nothing 
to
> that effect on that letter that Harry receives, isn't it?
> 
> YES, he read the books, he says that they are interesting, good for
> him, no he probably did not read or did not remember the part to 
> answer Snape's questions and as
> far as I understand neither him no Hermione had to do that. But
> Hermione reads and remembers everything, so the fact that she (and
> nobody else) knows the answer really does not tell me that it means
> homework was given.
> 

Leah:

 I don't for one moment think that homework was given, and I don't 
think I implied that it had been.

We don't know until Harry/the narrator tells us that he won't know 
the answers because he has read the books and we know that. Snape 
doesn't know that either.

I do think Draco and some of the Slytherins who are giggling do know 
the answers to some at least of the questions, by the way they 
react, but I disregarded that, because they are pureblood children 
who could have learned these things elsewhere.  The reason I 
mentioned Hermione was to show that it was entirely possible for a 
child with no previous experience of the wizarding world to read the 
textbooks and to learn from what is in them, without her being 
required to do so, and that, and the way she is desperate to answer 
tells us things about Hermione.   

Asking the questions and seeing how Harry deals with them tells 
Snape some things about Harry.  Knowing the answers in themselves is 
not important.  I'm not blaming Harry for not knowing, but his not 
knowing 
illustrates some things about Harry, for example that he does not 
retain things from books particularly well without concentrating, ie 
he doesn't have a photographic memory.  We do see that in Harry, for 
example he reads about Nicholas Flamel on Dumbledore's chocolate 
frog card, something which interested him at the time he was reading 
it, but later it took him ages to realise where he had 'seen' 
Flamel. The same thing happened in DH, when Harry saw the picture of 
Gellert in Skeeter's book, but then later couldn't remember how 
he 'knew' the golden haired boy in the photo with Dumbledore. So 
that particular fact about Harry is something which affects how 
Harry operates in the world, and might be worth knowing.

> 
> Alla:
> 
> So, Snape needed to give Harry some of preliminary humiliation if 
he
> is "arrogant like his father"?

Leah: As I pointed out, Snape has no way of knowing beforehand that 
the questions are going to humiliate Harry.  For all Snape knows, 
Harry could be a child exactly like Hermione, who is going to know 
the answer to question one immediately.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I am sorry I find this reason to be funny. So, if Harry does not 
know
> answers he is not a Dark Lord and Vice versa?

Leah: No, of course not. But a child who knows a lot about magic, 
who is interesting himself in magic he doesn't necessarily need to 
know at this stage, who shows himself to be very bright AND has 
apparently already defeated one Dark Lord, would bear a lot of 
watching.  It doesn't of course mean Harry would be dark, it's just 
something to keep an eye on. 

> 
> Or he took them in, after reading books for fun, just not every
> little detail.

Leah: Yes, very probably. I'm not criticising Harry here, I'm saying 
that Harry knowing the answers to the questions would tell Snape one 
thing about him and his not knowing might indicate other things.  In 
a 
way it's like a normal classroom.  No teacher asks a question 
because they need to know what a bezoar does or what the square root 
of 25 is.  They ask because what a child might or might not answer 
in different circumstances tells them about the child and its 
learning and personality.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> If anybody else would have known it, I would agree. Hermione to me
> really is exception, we do know that she reads everything indeed,
> nobody else seems to know, don't they?

Leah: I think they probably do, but that's unimportant as I've said 
above.  This is the point I'm trying to make: One child in the 
class, who has no previous wizarding experience, does immediately 
know all the answers to the questions. That tells us something about 
Hermione. If Harry knew the answers to the questions, that would 
indicate to us and to Snape that Harry is also that sort of child. 
He isn't. There's nothing good or bad in it as far as I am 
concerned, it is a fact to know about Harry.  

> Alla:
> 
> I fully believe that Snape majorly contributed to Harry NOT doing
> well academincally in Potions by killing his interest forever on 
this
> lesson. And he still gets such a good grade on OWLS. YAY Harry.

Leah: I agree with you on the killing of interest. But I don't tbink 
Harry did well in his Potions OWL because he taught himself the 
subject, so clearly he did learn from Snape.
> 
> 
> Leah:
> > Unfortunately, Harry doesn't know the answers and makes matters
> worse
> > by cheeking Snape. We know this is how Harry copes with the
> Dursleys,
> > but Snape doesn't. It's just cheek and raises the James factor in
> > Snape's eyes. From then on, it's downhill all the way. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, it is not just cheek, in my opinion it is not cheek at all. I
> read it as Harry sincerely answering Snape that Hermione knows.

Leah: Hermione has put her hand up to every question.By this stage 
she is standing up waving her hand in desperation to show she's not 
a dunderhead.  Unless Harry believes Snape to be blind and deaf, 
Harry must understand that Snape knows Hermione knows the 
answers.  "Why don't you try her?" is cheek pure and simple. How do 
you think Minerva would have reacted?  The class laugh so they too 
can see that it is cheek.       
> 
> Leah:
> <SNIP>
> >There is a deliberate Harry filter
> > in the presentation of Snape.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Not in what narrator describes in my opinion, I do not believe
> anything on first lesson is described incorrectly facts wise.
> 
Leah: Harry describes what happens. It is factually accurate that 
Snape questions Harry, but it is presented to us from Harry's POV
and therefore the Harry filter.  Harry later factually reports 
various observations on Snape and the filter on this is that Snape 
is trying to steal the Stone, kill Harry etc.

> Leah:
> >And yes, Snape is an adult, but he is,
> > like Sirius, a damaged and emotionally retarded adult, who gets
> > absolutely no teaching support from his headmaster.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Funny, for years I thought Snape gets more teaching support from 
his
> Headmaster than he ever deserves. Because I thought Dumbledore
> deliberately turns blind eye on what he does to Harry and Neville,
> and Hermione.
> 
> The only support I would have given Snape was to tell him to stop
> doing what he does to Harry or he will be kicked out of Hogwarts, 
but
> of course we know now that Dumbledore needed Snape and yes, before
> you ask I hold Dumbledore responsible too.

Leah: McGonagall is pretty nasty to Neville too. I don't think Harry 
is altogether the innocent victim here,Hermione neither),and I can't 
see that he's in anyway traumatised by Potions,  but Dumbledore 
certainly doesn't concern himself with what goes on in any 
classroom.  But Snape does go to Dumbledore at a time which must be 
very early in the first term (pre-Halloween at least)and let 
Dumbledore know that he has major problems in his relationship with 
Harry (and yes, it's a rant, but Dumbledore should be able to pick 
the bones out of it and assist). All Dumbledore does is tell Snape 
he's wrong in his assessment of Harry, give him another job to do, 
and go back to reading a magazine. Great management there, Albus, 
but of course Albus isn't managing a school, he's preparing to run a 
war.     


Leah




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 15:41:17 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 15:41:17 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmevqd+cgag@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmf1at+6d3d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185662

Leah:

I don't for one moment think that homework was given, and I don't
think I implied that it had been.

We don't know until Harry/the narrator tells us that he won't know
the answers because he has read the books and we know that. Snape
doesn't know that either.
<SNIP>

Alla:

And I am saying that the assumption Snape should make that children 
do not know the answers rather that they do for the reason that he 
did not give homework.


Leah:
<SNIP>
The reason I
mentioned Hermione was to show that it was entirely possible for a
child with no previous experience of the wizarding world to read the
textbooks and to learn from what is in them, without her being
required to do so, and that, and the way she is desperate to answer
tells us things about Hermione.

Alla:

And what I am trying to say is that I do not believe that Hermione 
**counts** to make this assumption. I think she is an exception to 
the rule,  and based on her we cannot make an assumption that 
muggleborn child will know these things on the first lesson.


Leah:
<SNIP>
Asking the questions and seeing how Harry deals with them tells
Snape some things about Harry. Knowing the answers in themselves is
not important. I'm not blaming Harry for not knowing, but his not
knowing
illustrates some things about Harry, for example that he does not
retain things from books particularly well without concentrating, ie
he doesn't have a photographic memory. <SNIP>

Alla:

Yes, I agree it tells us that Harry is not Hermione , but so are ALL 
other kids in the class and I do not see why Snape would suddenly 
want to see if he is like Hermione.  I was always told that I have 
pretty good memory,  but if I glanced through the book of Chemistry 
just because I never studied Chemistry before and I would be curious, 
I sincerely doubt that I would have remembered much. Now book of 
history, sure.

So, yes Harry is not Hermione. Snape does not know that Hermione is 
in class before he actually sees them, right? I just fail to see how 
that makes what he does in any way legitimate, except of the act of 
petty, vile, abusive little man (My opinion of course).

I often said in the past that what Snape does to Harry reads to me as 
attack of the mad dog, who knows he cannot kill, but wants to bite as 
hurtful as possible. But I think I should rethink it, because I like 
dogs too much.

> Alla:
>
> I am sorry I find this reason to be funny. So, if Harry does not
know
> answers he is not a Dark Lord and Vice versa?

Leah: No, of course not. But a child who knows a lot about magic,
who is interesting himself in magic he doesn't necessarily need to
know at this stage, who shows himself to be very bright AND has
apparently already defeated one Dark Lord, would bear a lot of
watching. It doesn't of course mean Harry would be dark, it's just
something to keep an eye on.

Alla:

Or it is of course possible that Snape saw Harry and instead saw 
James and wanted to knock him down, because he could not bear 
remembering that James won the girl and wanted eleven year old to 
suffer. 
Because by this analogy I think Hermione bears watching as next dark 
lord, no?


Leah: Yes, very probably. I'm not criticizing Harry here, I'm saying
that Harry knowing the answers to the questions would tell Snape one
thing about him and his not knowing might indicate other things. In
a
way it's like a normal classroom. No teacher asks a question
because they need to know what a bezoar does or what the square root
of 25 is. They ask because what a child might or might not answer
in different circumstances tells them about the child and its
learning and personality.

Alla:

Well, it is good that we agree that Harry is not to blame, we just 
disagree why Snape asked those questions. I see no justification for 
that, none. If he wanted to watch Harry, here is a bright idea for 
Snape - **watch**. Observe him, give him normal exercises, try to 
LEARN who Harry is. Maybe during several lessons?

Leah: I think they probably do, but that's unimportant as I've said
above. This is the point I'm trying to make: One child in the
class, who has no previous wizarding experience, does immediately
know all the answers to the questions. That tells us something about
Hermione. If Harry knew the answers to the questions, that would
indicate to us and to Snape that Harry is also that sort of child.
He isn't. There's nothing good or bad in it as far as I am
concerned, it is a fact to know about Harry.

Alla:

I understand the point that you are making, I just disagree that we 
can make this point based on Hermione.

Leah: I think they probably do, but that's unimportant as I've said
above. This is the point I'm trying to make: One child in the
class, who has no previous wizarding experience, does immediately
know all the answers to the questions. That tells us something about
Hermione. If Harry knew the answers to the questions, that would
indicate to us and to Snape that Harry is also that sort of child.
He isn't. There's nothing good or bad in it as far as I am
concerned, it is a fact to know about Harry.

Alla:

Not in my opinion, no. Harry says so quietly, without laughing till 
he looks at other kids. I suspect that this is what he observed in 
muggle school he went to, that other kids told that to teachers, etc.

Leah: Harry describes what happens. It is factually accurate that
Snape questions Harry, but it is presented to us from Harry's POV
and therefore the Harry filter. Harry later factually reports
various observations on Snape and the filter on this is that Snape
is trying to steal the Stone, kill Harry etc.

Alla:

To me filter kicks in when narrator reports without having enough 
information ? Snape trying to kill Harry was an opinion made without 
sufficient information. This is reporting of the facts which later 
nobody disproves, I do not believe there is any filter here. 

Leah: 

McGonagall is pretty nasty to Neville too. 

Alla:

LOLOL. Yes, she is! Extremely so. That makes what Snape does better?

Leah:
I don't think Harry
is altogether the innocent victim here,Hermione neither),and I can't
see that he's in anyway traumatized by Potions, but Dumbledore
certainly doesn't concern himself with what goes on in any
classroom. But Snape does go to Dumbledore at a time which must be
very early in the first term (pre-Halloween at least)and let
Dumbledore know that he has major problems in his relationship with
Harry (and yes, it's a rant, but Dumbledore should be able to pick
the bones out of it and assist). All Dumbledore does is tell Snape
he's wrong in his assessment of Harry, give him another job to do,
and go back to reading a magazine. Great management there, Albus,
but of course Albus isn't managing a school, he's preparing to run a
war.

Alla:

Eleven year old is not altogether an innocent victim here? Okay.

And yes, that is the episode I had in mind when I said Snape got more 
support that he deserved. That is the help I expected Dumbledore to 
give Snape ? stop it, or you will be fired immediately.

I was glad that he disagreed with Snape about Harry at least, but I 
did not expect him to allow Snape to continue his shenanigans either. 
Only I guess you wanted him to chastise Harry instead of Snape as I 
did?

But yes, I would  always hold Albus responsible for manipulating 
Snape into *protecting* Harry. I think by doing so and not stopping 
it he fully contributed.

JMO,

Alla





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 16:24:35 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 16:24:35 -0000
Subject: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <9D0A38F0435846AB9E579A912D0CEFA1@homemain>
Message-ID: <gmf3s3+oeam@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185663

> Montavilla47:
> I don't think it really matters why Marietta's disfigurement isn't cured. 
> The fact remains that the disfigurement is there months afterwards.  It may 
> be marginally better (since she's graduated from a balaclava to heavy 
> makeup), but it's still there, and we never see her completely cured.  For 
> all intents and purposes, the disfigurement is permanent.
> 
> Shelley:
> No, I don't think that I can agree with that statement. I am thinking of 
> Hermione's teeth that got shrunk back to (less than) their normal size. If 
> the healer at the time immediately after the incident didn't shrink her 
> teeth back (what if she was away for several days?), does that mean that 
> Hermione was forever "doomed" of having such large teeth? What if the healer 
> finally got around to shrinking her teeth months later? Would the proper 
> treatment still work? I think it would have. 

Montavilla47:
I don't really understand this argument.  If Madam Pomfrey hadn't 
been able to shrink Hermione's teeth and so they remained larger 
throughout the books, then yes, the damage would have been 
permanent.  Just like Lockhart's memory loss was permanent, and
the Longbottoms' insanity, Bill's bites, and George's ear loss.  Some 
injuries in the Wizarding world are permanent.

And, since JKR takes care to show us that Marietta's face is 
disfigured every time we see her in the series--and we never
hear about them disappearing--then it seems counterintuitive
to conclude that they eventually got cured.


Shelly:
> I just think there are two issues here: her initial punishment of pustules 
> and the word Sneak from her breaking of a contract; and the secondary 
> punishment she received when the healer she sought failed to know the 
> correct antidote. Blame the first on Hermione, yes, but the 2nd punishment 
> wouldn't have happened if the people in the story had recognized it as a 
> curse, and for that, I don't blame Hermione. 

Montavilla47:
Okay... I can kind of see this.  I mean, it's like blaming Snape because
George's ear can't be regrown, right?  Imagine we don't know that 
Snape was trying to hit a Death Eater when he used Sectumsempra on
George.  Now, it was Snape's fault that he cut off George's ear.  But it 
wasn't his fault that Molly couldn't heal the wound, right?

And so George was punished twice for his involvement in the 
Seven Potters plan.  He was targeted because he was one of Harry's
decoys.  And, he was further punished because no one but Snape 
knows how to heal the damage--but that's not really Snape's 
fault, is it?

And, if Snape had smirked at George later, wouldn't we consider
him a big jerk?

Shelly:
> Thus, in my way of thinking, 
> Hermione is no less "bad" than any other child in that school who hexed or 
> jinxed their classmates and the victim had to seek the school nurse to get 
> her to correct it- they all had their "fates" of being normal again (or not) 
> resting on Madame Pomfrey's ability to "fix them". Some even benefited from 
> being hexed- look at Hermione's smaller teeth for example- she won out in 
> the end because her new teeth were smaller than the originals, and nicer 
> looking too! It only makes sense to me that if some won out, then others 
> might have been disappointed in Madame Pomfrey. What if she hadn't been so 
> sensitive to Hermione and shrunk her teeth, but not enough that they looked 
> so good? Wouldn't she also be punished continually from the original hex 
> that caused her teeth to enlarge, if after the "shrinking" the end result 
> was large teeth that looked even worse than before? Wouldn't we also feel 
> bad for her and hate the person who sent the original spell that did this to 
> her? 

Montavilla47:
Yes, if Hermione had ended up with larger teeth that made her look 
terrible, then we would feel terrible for her.  As for hating the person 
(Draco) who did that to her, I think we're already supposed to hate him.

Shelley:
>It strikes me that authors have various ways of making us loath a 
> character or feel sorry for them, as we do Marietta, or celebrate with them, 
> as we do with Hermione and her teeth.
> 
> Now, if the timeline included summer, and the pustules were still there, AND 
> we had some PROOF that she had been to St. Mungo's with no solution, then I 
> might agree that the pustules were permanent.

Montavilla47:
I agree that the author made me feel sorry for Marietta.  In fact, I think
she went to great pains to make me feel sorry for Marietta.  Especially
when we see how reluctant she is, even as she's "squealing" on the 
D.A.  

And that sympathy for Marietta diminishes my sympathy for Harry
when he notes with satisfaction that Marietta is still disfigured
AFTER the summer.  As to whether or not she went to St. Mungo's,
that matters not a whit to me.  It's not in the book.  What *is* in 
the book is that her pustules are still there the last time that we
see her--and so, as far as we know, the disfigurement is permanent.

Which makes a full recovery for Marietta exactly as likely as the
possibility that Bill's face will become unscarred, George's ear 
will grow back, or that the Longbottoms and Lockhart will 
recover their memories.

> Alla:
> Sure, but as one of the readers who has no problem with Marietta's 
> punishment whatsoever just wanted to note that I certainly do not find 
> Marietta's punishment amusing. I never felt that it was a prank or anything 
> like that.
> 
> I think it was deserved, sure, but I was not laughing.
> 
> Shelley:
> I echo that sentiment. She deserved whatever happened to her when the 
> contract she signed was broken, as she did this to herself, but I also did 
> not laugh at her. I could only imagine the continued and enduring shame that 
> such pustules would bring (especially on a girl, who tend to value the 
> beauty of their faces), and the resulting teasing from the others, and 
> punishment like that is not a laughing matter.

Montavilla47:
Yes.  It was never laugh out loud funny.  It was more mildly amusing. 
When it happened.  Because I tend to think of pimples as 
something that clears up within a few days.  (Now, I have friends who 
have had severe acne that lasted years.  They probably didn't find it 
amusing in the slightest.)

It kind of reminds me last week's episode of "The Big Bang Theory."  In
that episode, Leonard (a geek) takes on what he thinks of as a quest (
a la LOTR or Star Wars) by challenging a bully.  The result of his heroism
is that he gets something written on forehead with indelible ink--and thus
ends up humiliated.  It's funny, even though we're completely behind
Leonard as a comic hero.  I don't worry even a little because I know
that even indelible ink will fade off skin within about a week--until then
Leonard wears a stupid cap that covers his forehead.  

But, if the bully had tattooed the writing on his forehead, or worse,
branded it there, making it permanent, then it wouldn't be funny at all.  
It would be horrific.  






From leahstill at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  5 16:45:39 2009
From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 16:45:39 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmf1at+6d3d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmf53j+naa9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185664

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
> Alla:
> 
> And I am saying that the assumption Snape should make that 
children 
> do not know the answers rather that they do for the reason that he 
> did not give homework.

Leah: We don't know what Snape assumes. You are of the opinion that 
Snape is asking the questions to humiliate Harry. Now you are saying 
that he is assuming Harry should know the answers.  How can he be 
humiliating him if he assumes Harry knows the answers?> 
> 
>> Alla:
> 
> Yes, I agree it tells us that Harry is not Hermione , but so are 
ALL 
> other kids in the class and I do not see why Snape would suddenly 
> want to see if he is like Hermione. (snip) 
> So, yes Harry is not Hermione. Snape does not know that Hermione 
is 
> in class before he actually sees them, right? I just fail to see 
how 
> that makes what he does in any way legitimate, except of the act 
of 
> petty, vile, abusive little man (My opinion of course).

Leah: Snape doesn't know Hermione.  He's not interested in Hermione 
or in whether Harry is like her or not. He wants to see what Harry 
is like. He learns that Harry is not a bookworm, not someone who is 
desperate for academic success etc.  He is not that particular sort 
of child.  I fail to see why asking a child three questions is in 
anyway vile or petty, and most certainly not abusive.  
.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Or it is of course possible that Snape saw Harry and instead saw 
> James and wanted to knock him down, because he could not bear 
> remembering that James won the girl and wanted eleven year old to 
> suffer. 
> Because by this analogy I think Hermione bears watching as next 
dark 
> lord, no?

Leah: He does see James in Harry and he doesn't cope with that well, 
but Harry also behaves in ways which reinforce the James in Harry.  
I don't see Snape 'wants Harry to suffer' but that he (Snape) reacts 
in certain ways to Harry because of the James filter.  As for 
Hermione, she has not already 'defeated' one Dark Lord, but if she 
had, I would have kept a close eye on her, yes. 

> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, it is good that we agree that Harry is not to blame, we just 
> disagree why Snape asked those questions. I see no justification 
for 
> that, none. If he wanted to watch Harry, here is a bright idea for 
> Snape - **watch**. Observe him, give him normal exercises, try to 
> LEARN who Harry is. Maybe during several lessons?

Leah: I wouldn't disagree with the latter, but there is no reason 
why Snape can't ask a student questions. If he'd done the same to 
Hermione or (very probably) Draco, they would have been over the 
moon.   And as I keep saying, Snape might have had reasons (Harry's 
presumed inherited intelligence, his mother's interest in potions) 
for thinking Harry could have known the answers.

> Alla:
> 
> Not in my opinion, no. Harry says so quietly, without laughing 
till 
> he looks at other kids. I suspect that this is what he observed in 
> muggle school he went to, that other kids told that to teachers, 
etc.

Leah: He obviously went to a different muggle school than I did. In 
my day, that would have earned a clip round the ear, and even in 
Harry's day would have got a rebuke.  It is cheek, but I can 
understand it because Harry is reacting because he feels got at, and 
that is the way he would have reacted to Vernon. 
> 
>Leah: McGonagall is pretty nasty to Neville too. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> LOLOL. Yes, she is! Extremely so. That makes what Snape does 
better?  

Leah: No, but it indicates something about teaching styles at 
Hogwarts, and that if two different people teach in a particular 
style that may well say more about the school they teach in than 
them as individuals. 

> 
> Alla:
> 
> Eleven year old is not altogether an innocent victim here? Okay.

Leah: Sorry, not clear, I meant later in Harry's school life.
> 
> And yes, that is the episode I had in mind when I said Snape got 
more 
> support that he deserved. That is the help I expected Dumbledore 
to 
> give Snape ? stop it, or you will be fired immediately.

Leah: But Dumbledore is only getting Snape's view of Harry, not what 
is happening in the classroom.  He doesn't come to the class, he 
doesn't give Snape any guidance,advice, warnings, anything. There is 
a problem between Snape and Harry which should be resolved in both 
their interests and Dumbledore, who knows that he wants them both at 
Hogwarts,  has no interest in doing so (at this stage anyway).

Leah 




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Thu Feb  5 18:49:32 2009
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 11:49:32 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
References: <gmf3s3+oeam@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <4D8075DC29654991925CCFD2B6425171@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 185665

>> Montavilla47:
>> I don't think it really matters why Marietta's disfigurement isn't cured.
>> The fact remains that the disfigurement is there months afterwards.  It 
>> may
>> be marginally better (since she's graduated from a balaclava to heavy
>> makeup), but it's still there, and we never see her completely cured. 
>> For
>> all intents and purposes, the disfigurement is permanent.
>>
>> Shelley:
>> No, I don't think that I can agree with that statement. I am thinking of
>> Hermione's teeth that got shrunk back to (less than) their normal size. 
>> If
>> the healer at the time immediately after the incident didn't shrink her
>> teeth back (what if she was away for several days?), does that mean that
>> Hermione was forever "doomed" of having such large teeth? What if the 
>> healer
>> finally got around to shrinking her teeth months later? Would the proper
>> treatment still work? I think it would have.
>
> Montavilla47:
> I don't really understand this argument.  If Madam Pomfrey hadn't
> been able to shrink Hermione's teeth and so they remained larger
> throughout the books, then yes, the damage would have been
> permanent.  Just like Lockhart's memory loss was permanent, and
> the Longbottoms' insanity, Bill's bites, and George's ear loss.  Some
> injuries in the Wizarding world are permanent.
>
> And, since JKR takes care to show us that Marietta's face is
> disfigured every time we see her in the series--and we never
> hear about them disappearing--then it seems counterintuitive
> to conclude that they eventually got cured.

Shelley:
I never said that they eventually got cured- note, the books don't tell us 
either way. I am making a distinction: The TIMING of the cure, and the 
ABILITY to be cured. I think that a Wizard trained in curses would have been 
able to heal Marietta, but that solution was missed in the books as we read 
them. Hence, she had the ABILITY to be cured, but the TIMING never happened 
in the books as we read them. In my mind, ongoing pustules aren't the same 
as permanent pustules. Some damage, as you pointed out, is permanent because 
there is no way to fix it, but that some permanent injuries were a result of 
the lack of treatment- like the scar on Dumbledore's knee, whom he didn't 
seem to mind and found a creative use for (to use a map). I disagree that 
something is permanent if at any time, you have the ability to got to the 
proper healer to get it corrected, as I think Marietta could have been 
treated and fixed. I'm not going to say that it is permanent, (discounting 
Rowling's interview about this subject) if sometime after the events we 
read, we could easily imagine Marietta going to the correct healer to get 
end the curse- much like Sleeping Beauty isn't dead, but merely waiting for 
the Prince to end that curse. It makes a difference to me that I know that 
Marietta is still awaiting her "prince" to end the curse.

> Shelly:
>> I just think there are two issues here: her initial punishment of 
>> pustules
>> and the word Sneak from her breaking of a contract; and the secondary
>> punishment she received when the healer she sought failed to know the
>> correct antidote. Blame the first on Hermione, yes, but the 2nd 
>> punishment
>> wouldn't have happened if the people in the story had recognized it as a
>> curse, and for that, I don't blame Hermione.
>
> Montavilla47:
> Okay... I can kind of see this.  I mean, it's like blaming Snape because
> George's ear can't be regrown, right?  Imagine we don't know that
> Snape was trying to hit a Death Eater when he used Sectumsempra on
> George.  Now, it was Snape's fault that he cut off George's ear.  But it
> wasn't his fault that Molly couldn't heal the wound, right?

Shelley:
Your argument makes no sense, given that you've already stated that some 
injuries are permanent because there is no way of fixing the damage, and we 
know that the worst instances of Sectumsempra, no one can fix it.  Draco 
would have died if not for the immediate and very skilled actions of Snape, 
who happened to know exactly what to do. A severed ear is different than a 
skin inflamation, by far, for to fix it, you would have to grow a whole new 
ear. No one stopped to get the ear that had fallen to reattach it, and even 
if they did, we know Wizards don't believe in stitches. Snape is fully 
responsible, for he did the damage with the intend to inflict irreparable 
damage- if he alone knew the cure, then he inflicted damage knowing there 
would be no one to fix the injured party, for he wasn't going back to fix 
that damage he had done. There is no secondary "healer missing the solution" 
in this instance, becuase there is no solution, apart from Snape. And, I see 
no evidence that Hermione committed this act with the same kind of malice- 
meaning to permanently inflict injuries on the person who would betray the 
DA by squeeling. I think Hermione knew that Marietta could be fixed, and 
it's not her fault when it wasn't.


> Montavilla47:
> It kind of reminds me last week's episode of "The Big Bang Theory."  In
> that episode, Leonard (a geek) takes on what he thinks of as a quest (
> a la LOTR or Star Wars) by challenging a bully.  The result of his heroism
> is that he gets something written on forehead with indelible ink--and thus
> ends up humiliated.  It's funny, even though we're completely behind
> Leonard as a comic hero.  I don't worry even a little because I know
> that even indelible ink will fade off skin within about a week--until then
> Leonard wears a stupid cap that covers his forehead.
>
> But, if the bully had tattooed the writing on his forehead, or worse,
> branded it there, making it permanent, then it wouldn't be funny at all.
> It would be horrific.

Shelley:
I'm just saying that part of what makes me feel bad for Marietta is the fact 
that Madame Pomfrey is treating the pustules like a hex or jinx, and thus 
misses the proper cure for this injured girl. I don't hold Hermione 
responsible when the adults in Marietta's life missed that she was cursed. I 
blame the adults for missing the cure, and I feel bad for Marietta that she 
is continuing to suffer needlessly. In the story you just told, if the ink 
were "alcohol" dissolvable (such as a permanent marker is!), and the 
characters were trying to wash it off with water, wouldn't you as a viewer 
know that they had missed the solution if it was obvious to you, and then 
feel bad for the person suffering the ink on their face still, even though a 
simple solution existed? I feel bad for Marietta because the proper solution 
isn't applied. We as a reader have "extra" information that the characters 
in the story don't know, and that's my source of feeling bad for Marietta 
when she continues to have pustules months later.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 19:25:14 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:25:14 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmf53j+naa9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmfeeq+77q1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185666

> > Alla:
> > 
> > And I am saying that the assumption Snape should make that 
> children 
> > do not know the answers rather that they do for the reason that 
he 
> > did not give homework.
> 
> Leah: We don't know what Snape assumes. You are of the opinion that 
> Snape is asking the questions to humiliate Harry. Now you are 
saying 
> that he is assuming Harry should know the answers.  How can he be 
> humiliating him if he assumes Harry knows the answers?

Alla:

Um, see above. I am saying exactly the opposite. *the assumption 
Snape should make that children do not know the answers*


Leah:
>Snape does not know Hermione.  He's not interested in Hermione 
> or in whether Harry is like her or not. He wants to see what Harry 
> is like. He learns that Harry is not a bookworm, not someone who is 
> desperate for academic success etc.  He is not that particular sort 
> of child.  I fail to see why asking a child three questions is in 
> anyway vile or petty, and most certainly not abusive.  

Alla:

Exactly. Snape does not know Hermione and he is not interested in 
Hermione or whether Harry is like her or not. I understood you to 
argue however that Snape can make an assumption based on Hermione 
that children can know answers. But I do think that Hermione is 
completely irrelevant to what Snape is doing here.

I explained why I believe it is wrong to ask questions of the kids of 
the first year that they IMO have no ways of answering.

But it is the way Snape asks them that pushes his behavior to me from 
silly to abuse of his power. Mr. Potter, our new celebrity, fame is 
not everything and all that crap. Snape has NO clue what Harry is, 
you just argue that he is trying to learn things about Harry, don't 
you?

Snape talking about celebrity to me means that he **already** made a 
conclusion and as I know clearly wrong conclusion, Harry does not 
like his fame and wants nothing to do with it.




> >Leah: 

McGonagall is pretty nasty to Neville too. 
> > 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > LOLOL. Yes, she is! Extremely so. That makes what Snape does 
> better?  
> 
> Leah: No, but it indicates something about teaching styles at 
> Hogwarts, and that if two different people teach in a particular 
> style that may well say more about the school they teach in than 
> them as individuals. 

Alla:

I did not agree that Minerva teaches in the same style as Snape does, 
LOL. She **was** being nasty to Neville, what three times? To me, at 
least one of those times she did NOT single him out, when she was 
saying which incredibly foolish person lost a password, to me she was 
ready to lash out to ANY person that did that.

Which was of course wrong, definitely, but she did not have a 
preconceived notion of who the person was as Snape does and to me 
that makes a difference.

Of course I thought that making Neville wait for people to come in 
was absolutely horrible. However, again that to me does not make 
Minerva teach in the same style, Snape to me is a clear winner of 
that lol.

And Minerva learns and acknowledges her mistakes (time for your 
grandmother be proud of grandson she has), contrary to Snape.

And of course she was being nasty to member of her house, which of 
course does not make it right, but shows to me that if she perceives 
somebody is wrong, even if person in her house.



 
> Leah: But Dumbledore is only getting Snape's view of Harry, not 
what 
> is happening in the classroom.  He doesn't come to the class, he 
> doesn't give Snape any guidance,advice, warnings, anything. There 
is 
> a problem between Snape and Harry which should be resolved in both 
> their interests and Dumbledore, who knows that he wants them both 
at 
> Hogwarts,  has no interest in doing so (at this stage anyway).
>

Alla:

Sure of course, however he also gets views of other teachers and it 
felt to me that he was not agreeing with what Snape saying and still 
did not interfere. He should have resolved the problem, yes, but in 
my view by putting Snape in his place first and foremost.

JMO,

Alla




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 00:05:55 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 00:05:55 -0000
Subject: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <9D0A38F0435846AB9E579A912D0CEFA1@homemain>
Message-ID: <gmfut3+oi9p@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185667

Carol earlier:
> I don't want to get into the ethics of casting that spell or whether 
> Marietta deserved it. Suffice it to say that it's one of those
points that 
> Shelley and I don't agree on and I don't want to get into another
ping pong 
> match.
> and
> Then why are we arguing? I think the same thing.
> 
> Shelley responds:
> First, I would like to say that I was commented about Marietta's 
> disfigurement, and not debating "anyone in particular" as to what they 
> think. Secondly, I didn't think I was arguing, but discussing a book
(wasn't 
> that the purpose of this list?)
> 
> Carol, I disappointed that you first set me up as being in
disagreement with you, and then ask why are we arguing with you when
you agree with what I said. Please stick to discussing the books, and
any point at the moment, because I certainly am not arguing any points
from the prospective of "aligning" with anyone else's opinion, nor
setting myself up in "opposition" to anyone.

Carol responds:
You're misunderstanding my position. I *am* discussing the books. I'm
merely trying to clarify your views with respect to mine. Do we agree
or disagree? On which points and why? That's what I was trying to
determine. I was under the impression that this group existed for that
purpose.

Shelley:
 I'm discussing a book. It's my opinion that I could both agree and
disagree with the same person, depending on the point that we were 
discussing at the moment, and I would never open a dialog by saying
"I've disagreed with so-and-so in the past". It's totally irrelevant
to the points we are making now.

Carol responds:
I merely meant that there was no point in discussing a point on which
we were unlikely to reach a consensus (the ethics of Hermione's
spell). And I still feel exactly that way, having just gone through
several pointless ping pong matches with other posters. I certainly
intended no offense and am trying not to take offense at your personal
remarks.

Shelley: 
> That being said, I would like to clarify the timeline that I was
discussing-Marietta's pimples (pustules) were there months later, and
those "months later" occurred during the school year. Thus, I assumed
that Madame Pomfrey was still (incorrectly) working on them, and that
her parents hadn't been alerted that she needed St. Mungo's treatment.
Now, if she sought treatment at St. Mungo's over the summer, we don't
know. Someone can correct me if I have that timeline wrong- since my
kids also read my books, I don't have them to look up exactly which
passages show the original pustules, and the further passages that
said she still had them to check for sure that it was the same school
year.

Carol responds:
I'll get to the timeline at the end of my post. Meanwhile, please
accept my apologes if I offended you. That was not my intention. I
meant arguing in the sense of debating--or discussing a point on which
we disagree. Evidently, we've merely succeeded in confusing each other.

However, you've completely eliminated all my arguments, first quoting
a point that I said that I didn't intend to discuss (and I didn't
discuss it) and then quoting a single sentence expressing my own
confusion over your position and how it differed from mine.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I read your argument (in the sense
of a position you're presenting--it's a rhetorical term) as being that
the "curse" would have been easy to cure if it had been identified. My
position is that the problem is not that the spell was a curse rather
than some schoolkid hex familiar to Madam Pomfrey (as you seem to
suggest) but that no one (Madam Pomfrey and Umbridge in particular)
knew that it was a jinx cast on a piece of parchment rather than a hex
cast directly on Marietta. (what Umbridge thinks triggered it in her
presence is anybody's guess.) Marietta could not remember that she had
signed the parchment, which might have helped them figure it out. Cho
doesn't seem to have made the connection, or she might have
volunteered the information. Dumbledore and Snape, who might have put
two and two together, were not involved. Hermione, who knew all about
it, was keeping her mouth shut. For all those reasons, and possibly
because Hermione had invented the spell herself without also inventing
a countercurse, no one could figure it out.

I also presented my view that Obliviate is a permanent spell, with
arguments to support that point, and tried to clarify your apparent
misunderstanding of my speculation about Marietta's mother taking her
to St. Mungo's. I never suggested that her mother took her out of
school, only that she would have acted like any other mother and taken
her daughter to get help from the Healers at St. Mungo's the moment
she saw her get off the Hogwarts Express with her face concealed by a
balaclava. But the Healers would be in the same position as Umbridge
and Madam Pomfrey. they would not have known about the jinx on the
parchment and consequently could not have reversed the spell.

The remaining question, which I can't answer, is whether anyone could
reverse it, even knowing the situation. Would they need to know the
exact spell, or would simply knowing its origin be sufficient? Part of
the answer depends on whether Hermione invented the spell or used a
known jinx.

Regarding the timeline, the first relevant passage occurs at the end
of OoP, when the students go home for vacation and Harry sees Marietta
wearing a balaclava (OoP Am .ed. 865). Obviously, the balaclava
indicates that Madam Pomfrey's efforts to clear Marietta's pustules
have been in vain. We have no idea whether she continues to make those
efforts throughout the school year or gives up in despair after
neither she nor Umbridge can make them go away and they're still there
at the end of the school year. FWIW, the last day of school is June 30
and the jinx was activated just after a "dull March" turns into "a
squally April" (605), which would be about three months. 

The second passage occurs at the beginning of HBP, when the students
are returning to school after summer vacation, and Harry notes
Marietta wearing a heavy layer of makeup (HBP Am. ed. 142).In the
second passage, Harry sees Cho talking "with her friend Marietta, who
was wearing a very thick layer of makeup that did not entirely obscure
the odd formation of pimples still etched across her face." In this
instance, the summer has passed, but whatever Marietta's mother or St.
Mungo's may or may not have done or tried to do, the pimples are still
there.

Other relevant passages occur in OoP. Fudge says to Umbridge, "Haven't
we got a counterjinx for this?" and Umbridge responds, "I have not yet
managed to find one," which indicates that Umbridge must have
attempted to remove the pustules before she took Marietta to DD's
office (and, of course, before Marietta was Obliviated). Marietta is
still in the hospital wing the next day (625) and the day after, at
which point "Madam Pomfrey had not been able to make the slightest
improvement in her pimples" (637). Oddly, Cho knows by this time that
Hermione jinxed the parchment, but apparently she hasn't passed on
this key bit of information to Madam Pomfrey, who would surely be able
to figure out the specific jinx and counterjinx--or interview Hermione
and demand the information--if she knew it.

IIRC, that's the last we hear of Marietta until we see her in a
balaclava on the Hogwarts Express. I doubt that she's in the hospital
wing the whole time. Once she recovers sufficiently from Kingsley's
Obliviate to do her schoolwork, I assume that she attends classes in
her balaclava. Neither Umbridge, the DADA teacher (for what that's
worth) nor Madam Pomfrey, the school nurse, has been able to help her.
(Fudge didn't even offer to try.) 

Carol, hoping that Shelley will respond to her points this time rather
than snipping them 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 00:24:41 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 00:24:41 -0000
Subject: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmeujp+b5an@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmg009+1pji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185668

Magpie:
> Marietta still has pustules in the following book, after the summer.
She's wearing heavy make-up to cover them, and Harry smirks when he 
sees her.
> 
> Which is why I assumed they were permenant. When I saw them at the
end of OotP I think I just assumed they'd fade over time, but when 
JKR went to the trouble of giving Harry a smirking moment in the next
book that indicated that I should assume they were on-going. JKR then
by her admission "forgot about her" so left me with a last impression
that her pustules were an on-going feature of hers. When asked in an
interview she said eventually they faded but left a few scars and that
she loathed a traitor.
> 
> I would put the responsibility for them totally on Hermione, just
as, if Hermione's teeth proved unshrinkable, I would have considered
Draco responsible. I assumed Draco used a known spell that anyone
would know wouldn't be permenant while Hermione intentionally created
one that would take years to fade. So Hermione scarred her face for
life but only gave her pustules for months or years as punishment for
telling about the DA.

Carol responds:
But it's not just pustules and scars in a random pattern, which would
be ugly but would not cause psychological damage. What's important,
IMO, is the word they spell out, "SNEAK." A girl who's so distraught
that she's hiding her face under a balaclava three months later is
probably suffering emotional damage. And JKR says that even though the
pustules eventually go away, the scars don't. (We see her trying
vainly to hide them under thick makeup at the beginning of the next
school year.) Hermione's act of vengeance has scarred another teenage
girl for life, physically and emotionally. And, whatever Cho has told
Marietta, Marietta herself doesn't even remember the incident that
prompted the jinx. I can see that exact punishment if it lasts a week
or two. But a lifetime of having SNEAK branded across your face is too
great a punishment, IMO.

Carol, agreeing with Magpie but adding a point to her argument




From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 01:13:50 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 01:13:50 -0000
Subject: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmegvr+6btb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmg2se+k748@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185669

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "littleleahstill" 
<leahstill at ...> wrote:
>
>Leah: 
> 
> You know, it's not exactly unheard of for a teacher to single out 
one 
> student to answer questions.  It does happen in classrooms from 
time to 
> time.  Is Snape just acting like a 'normal' teacher here? No, I 
don't 
> think that he is.  Does he have reasons for singling out Harry? Yes:
> 
> 1. It's his job to protect Harry - it would help to know what Harry 
is 
> like.
> 
> 2. The whole James/Lily thing and more specifically: Is Harry 
arrogant 
> like his father? Is he a potions whizz like his mother?  
> 
> 3. Is Harry a potential Dark Lord?  


jkoney:
It's not unheard of to quiz a student in class. Except that these 
students haven't had any study of this subject nor were they assigned 
any reading before the first class.

Snape already knows that Harry wasn't raised in a wizarding home. Not 
only does the entire WW know that, but Snape is partially responsible 
for that happening. So Harry having any knowledge of potions is a 
rather slim idea.

I'm not sure how Harry knowing potions answers will determine how 
Snape will protect him. Nor how it will help determine if he is a 
dark lord.

A smarter way would have been to observe Harry and see how he 
interacts with others and how he responds to being around a bunch of 
wizards.

Leah:
> And because we see this all from Harry's perspective, we are 
> deliberately given the impression that Snape is setting out to 
> humiliate Harry, but really, wny would Snape think Harry couldn't 
> answer the questions?  He's had his potions textbooks for a 
month,and 
> we know that in fact he has read them; we learn that when he's at 
the 
> Dursleys' and are reminded of it again while Snape is questioning 
him.  
> He just hasn't taken them in. The information required to answer 
has to 
> be in the textbooks because Hermione, a muggleborn, manages to know 
all 
> the answers. Snape also knew Harry's parents at school and very 
> probably shared classes with them. We know from McGonagall that 
James 
> was bright and did well at school, and we have Slughorn's opinion 
of 
> Lily's potions prowess, so it is not unlikely that Harry is going 
to be 
> a child who is interested and does well academically.  
> 

jkoney:
It's not the narrator that makes us think that Snape is out to 
embarrass Harry it's Snapes actions.

He starts off by singling Harry out as a celebrity and doesn't make 
comments about any other student. He asks Harry a question and Harry 
doesn't know the answer. Instead of calling on someone else he sticks 
with questioning Harry. When the other students snicker at Harry he 
doesn't do what most other teachers would do and make one of those 
people answer, he sticks with Harry and insults him by saying that 
celebrity isn't everything.


Leah:
> Unfortunately, Harry doesn't know the answers and makes matters 
worse 
> by cheeking Snape. We know this is how Harry copes with the 
Dursleys, 
> but Snape doesn't. It's just cheek and raises the James factor in 
> Snape's eyes.  From then on, it's downhill all the way.
> 
jkoney:
Harry responds to this bully like every other bully he has run 
across, with humor. And Harry didn't insult Snape, he deflected the 
issue to someone who knew the answer. Trying to take the spotlight 
off of himself. 


Leah: 
> It would be foolish to deny that Snape is never petty or vindictive 
or 
> overdoes the sarcasm. But equally his behaviour can be 
exaggerated.  
> The trio and Neville are not the only Gryffindor students in 
Snape's 
> potions class but we don't see him reacting badly with any of the 
> others.  

jkoney:
Well it could be that he has his targets already picked out.

Leah:
And yes, Snape is an adult, but he is, 
> like Sirius, a damaged and emotionally retarded adult, who gets 
> absolutely no teaching support from his headmaster.

jkoney:
As for the scene with the headmaster, I thought Dumbledore handled it 
quite well. DD responds that he has gotten good reports from other 
teachers. He could have specifically pointed out to Snape that the 
problems were caused by Snape since no one else is reporting the same 
thing as him. Instead he hoped that Snape would realize on his own. 






From trekkie at stofanet.dk  Fri Feb  6 01:20:46 2009
From: trekkie at stofanet.dk (TrekkieGrrrl)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 02:20:46 +0100
Subject: [HPforGrownups] First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's
 Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmf1at+6d3d@eGroups.com>
References: <gmf1at+6d3d@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <498B906E.2060409@stofanet.dk>

No: HPFGUIDX 185670

OK I haven't posted in this group in like forever so PLEASE forgive me 
for probably doing it wrong...

I wonder why it's so hard to be lieve the fact that Snape is simply a 
mean, petty character - and make no mistake, I'm 110% a Snape fan - but 
I can see His flaws and one of the major iones is his ability to bear 
grudges.  And he does bear grudges. He hates JAMES Potter with a 
passion. And he hates Harry for being the spawn of James. Snape's 
problem is that he can't bring his love for Lily over to Harry. IMO 
because Harry LOOKS like James, short of  "Lily's eyes" - and they are 
after all obscured behind glasses that also *resembles James*

So IMO Snape is deliberately mean to Harry in chapter 8 - BECAUSE he 
reminds him of James. Not so much for being the "new celebrity" but for 
reminding Snape of his old fiend. A fiend that even had the gall to save 
his life. And THEN to marry the mud...er the girl Snape had fancied.

Snape's a fullblood bigot. He's a halfblood wizard but a fullblood 
bigot, just like Voldie. He WANTS to be something he's not. And then 
he's attracted to a Muggle-born witch...  It must have been hell for 
him. I bet he wanted a pureblood girl  - but you can't argue with Amor...

And so.. as much as he knows his DUTY is to PROTECT  Harry Potter...it 
doesn't mean he also has to LIKE the brat. And he doesn't. He protects 
im as he has to, but he truly and depy abhors the spawn of James Potter. 
And He makes no efford to hide that fact.

And 'Dumbledore doesn't make it easier, since he never ever steps in nd 
tells him to behave. Thereby silently endorsing Snape's behaviour. So 
yes, Dumbledore is at LEAST as much at fault as Snape. Perhaps even 
more, because as someone mentioned earlier, Snape is as emotionally 
crippled as Sirius, albeit in a different way.

But Dumbledore knew both of them and should have known better.

~Trekkie



From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 04:37:02 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 04:37:02 -0000
Subject: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmegvr+6btb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmgepe+re5m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185671

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "littleleahstill"
<leahstill at ...> wrote:
 
> You know, it's not exactly unheard of for a teacher to single 
> out one student to answer questions.  It does happen in classrooms >
from time to time.


zanooda:

Sure, you are right, there is no rule against teachers asking students
questions :-). It seems to me, however, that you are ignoring the rest
of Snape's remarks, which are, I regret to say, quite spiteful
(starting with "our new celebrity" :-)). Snape doesn't humiliate Harry
by asking questions, he humiliates him by commenting on his lack of
knowledge in a way that makes Harry look stupid, even though he (and
the rest of the students) is not *supposed* to know all this stuff yet. 

If Snape only wanted to ask Harry questions for the reasons that you
give (to find out more about him etc.), he wouldn't have sneered, he
wouldn't have said things like "fame isn't everything", he simply
would have gone on with the questioning. IMO, Snape assumes from the
very beginning that Harry is second James and therefore treats him as
he would have treated James. 

I don't think that he had planned this beforehand, but Harry and Ron's
raised eyebrows probably set him off :-) - he took it as a sign of
arrogance, I suppose :-). Anyway, I only wanted to say that I like
Snape, but I admit that he *does* try to put Harry down in this scene
(IMO, of course). It's not that easy though, because Harry has had a
lot of training with the Dursleys :-) 




 




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 04:49:57 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 04:49:57 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <983E453E9F6A46518DBC2AC79AF6090E@homemain>
Message-ID: <gmgfhl+5vkn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185672

> > Shelley:
> >> Wait, who in Slytherin was "hated on sight"? Seems to me that 
Syltherin
> >> members, as Laura said, EARNS their reputation. Draco, as the 
bully, 
> >> earns
> >> his own name. 

> > Montavilla47:
> > There is a Slytherin (I think it's Malcolm Baddock) who is hissed 
by
> > Fred and George as he is sorted into Slytherin.

> Shelley: 
> Either way, it's 
> Rowling who writes this passage in such a way to say that if Fred 
and George 
> don't like this individual, neither should we.

Zara:
Poor montavilla cannot win, can she? If there is no Slytherin who was 
hated on sight, then she is wrong. No one is unfair to them, they 
have all earned their black reputations. If there is a Slytherin who 
was shown to be hated on sight, he deserved to be.

*scratches head in puzzlement*







From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 05:12:50 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 05:12:50 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <498B906E.2060409@stofanet.dk>
Message-ID: <gmggsi+holr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185673

> Trekkie: 
> I wonder why it's so hard to believe the fact that Snape is simply 
a 
> mean, petty character 

Zara:
Perhaps I find it difficult to believe that which the evidence of my 
eyes tells me is false? Snape's not "simply" anything. 

> Trekkie:
> And he hates Harry for being the spawn of James. 

Zara:
Your argument is not convincing to me.

> Trekkie:
> Snape's 
> problem is that he can't bring his love for Lily over to Harry. IMO 
> because Harry LOOKS like James, short of  "Lily's eyes" - and they 
are 
> after all obscured behind glasses that also *resembles James*

Zara:
While it is not deniable that Harry has some physical resemblance to 
James, this is not where the resemblance ends. Your insistence that 
this important conflict of the series comes down to this one 
superficial factor, again, does not convince. Snape, on assorted 
occaeions, when expressing his own disapproval of Harry, brings up 
many other things, things which I could certainly see being 
irritating to a teacher responsible for Harry's safety, to a person 
of a studious disposition, or to someone who found James Potter not 
to his taste long before Lily and Amor entered the picture. 

> Trekkie:
> Snape's a fullblood bigot. He's a halfblood wizard but a fullblood 
> bigot, just like Voldie. He WANTS to be something he's not. 

Zara:
This, of course, is why his private name for himself, with which he 
adorned what was probably his most prized possession, was "The *Half-
Blood* Prince". Wait, no, that makes no sense to me at all.

I do agree he probably wanted to be a pureblood/wished he had been 
born one, but I don't think it was out of any belief in racial 
superiority. He probably cherished some idea this would have given 
him a father who actually liked something rather than not much of 
anything. Maybe even, a father who liked him and his mother. Not to 
mention the possibility of growing up around other kids like himself, 
where his dress would not mark him as odd, and he could make 
connections with friends and relatives which he would not need to 
leave behind upon entering school and adult life.

We also see that as a young boy of 9 or 10, he wanted a friend far 
more than he cared who her parents were. It was evident what Lily was 
before he even met her. I see no sign he cared.

> Trekkie:
>it 
> doesn't mean he also has to LIKE the brat. 

Zara:
I so agree. He doesn't have to like Harry. That he apparently didn't, 
has never bothered me in the slightest. 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 05:18:29 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 05:18:29 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gmgfhl+5vkn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmgh75+p2uq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185674

Montavilla47:
> > > There is a Slytherin (I think it's Malcolm Baddock) who is
hissed by Fred and George as he is sorted into Slytherin.
> 
> > Shelley: 
> > Either way, it's Rowling who writes this passage in such a way to
say that if Fred and George don't like this individual, neither should we.
> 
> Zara:
> Poor montavilla cannot win, can she? If there is no Slytherin who
was hated on sight, then she is wrong. No one is unfair to them, they
have all earned their black reputations. If there is a Slytherin who
was shown to be hated on sight, he deserved to be.
> 
> *scratches head in puzzlement*
>
Carol adds:
In any case, Fred and George aren't exactly models of maturity or
common judgment. As far as I can determine, they're simply judging
little Malcolm based on his House and possibly the elements of his
name: "Mal" and "Bad" as a list member noted. (Someone should tell
them that Malcolm means a follower of St. Columba!)

I don't think they have any other basis for judging him since there's
no DE that we know of named Baddock, nor do we see any supporting
evidence for their judgment. It's just an isolated incident that we're
free to interpret as we like. Shelley sees them as right and
justified; I see them as bullies taunting a child they don't know
without provocation much as James taunted Severus for wanting to be in
Slytherin twenty years earlier.

Carol, noting that no other Gryffindors, including Harry, Ron, and
Hermione, are rude enough to boo a first-year, and no Slytherins that
we know of boo Gryffindor first-years




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 05:23:26 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 05:23:26 -0000
Subject: Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC:  DH, EPILOGUE
In-Reply-To: <gmgh75+p2uq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmghge+hoaq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185675

 Carol earlier:
> In any case, Fred and George aren't exactly models of maturity
orcommon judgment. 

Carol:
Ack! That was supposed to be "common sense" or "good judgement."

Carol, wasting a post and heading to bed




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 06:47:13 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 06:47:13 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmggsi+holr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmgmdh+mvfq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185676

> Zara wrote:
> While it is not deniable that Harry has some physical resemblance 
> to James, this is not where the resemblance ends. Your insistence 
> that this important conflict of the series comes down to this one 
> superficial factor, again, does not convince. Snape, on assorted 
> occasions, when expressing his own disapproval of Harry, brings up 
> many other things, things which I could certainly see being 
> irritating to a teacher responsible for Harry's safety, to a person 
> of a studious disposition 

[snip]

Joey:

I certainly agree that Harry throwing caution to winds (his many 
night-time strolls and other similar tabooed wanderings) must have 
irritated Snape as he had taken responsibility for Harry's safety but 
I also think that Harry might have responded differently had Snape or 
DD let him know that Snape was taking care of Harry's safety. 

Yes, I too think that Snape is of a studious, serious, no-nonsense 
disposition. Yet even this aspect in Snape's personality doesn't 
drive him to approve Hermione's work, whose potions almost always 
match the expected accuracy. Yeah, it could just be his teaching 
style i.e. to avoid making his students vain by not being lavish with 
praise, to make sure to point out mistakes and to disapprove of any 
non-studious / careless attitude. Yet his disapproval of Harry (and 
Neville) is much more intense than his disapproval of say Crabbe. 
This indeed seems to be unfair.

>Zara wrote:

[snip]

>We also see that as a young boy of 9 or 10, he wanted a friend far 
>more than he cared who her parents were. It was evident what Lily 
>was before he even met her. I see no sign he cared.

Joey:

I think he did care about Lily's origin in some corner of his heart 
but chose to ignore his disappointment in the great rush of affection 
he felt for her. I do not have the exact quote with me but in DH, 
in "The Prince's Tale" chapter, there is one scene where Lily asks 
him if being a Muggle-born makes a difference to which he initially 
*hesitates*, *gazes at her beautiful face* and then *finally* replies 
that it makes no difference. There is also another scene in the train 
compartnment where he almost mentions to Lily that Petunia is *only* 
a Muggle (at least, that is what I imagined that he was about to 
say :-)) and catches himself quickly.

Cheers,
~Joey, who respects Snape for what he did to protect Harry and is 
always moved when she thinks of Snape's love for Lily




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 12:51:39 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 12:51:39 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmfeeq+77q1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmhbor+t8ad@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185677

> Leah:
> >Snape does not know Hermione.  He's not interested in Hermione 
> > or in whether Harry is like her or not. He wants to see what 
Harry 
> > is like. He learns that Harry is not a bookworm, not someone who 
is 
> > desperate for academic success etc.  He is not that particular 
sort 
> > of child.  I fail to see why asking a child three questions is in 
> > anyway vile or petty, and most certainly not abusive.  
 
> Alla:

[snip] 

> But it is the way Snape asks them that pushes his behavior to me 
from 
> silly to abuse of his power. Mr. Potter, our new celebrity, fame is 
> not everything and all that crap. Snape has NO clue what Harry is, 
> you just argue that he is trying to learn things about Harry, don't 
> you?
> 
> Snape talking about celebrity to me means that he **already** made 
a 
> conclusion and as I know clearly wrong conclusion, Harry does not 
> like his fame and wants nothing to do with it.

Joey now:
 
I agree with Alla here. 

If knowing about Harry is the sole objective, why not ask the 
questions and stop at that? All Snape knows about Harry at this 
juncture is his name, parentage and his uncanny escape from Voldie's 
AK curse when he was about *an year old* (which is the *sole* reason 
for his fame at that point). Harry has not made even the slightest 
fuss about his fame yet! So, why make taunting comments about Harry's 
celebrity status and about fame not being eveything?? 

Protecting Harry is a separate, secret project for *Severus* Snape, 
the individual. The agenda for *Professor* Snape is different. In the 
classroom, he is yet another professor who is supposed to be trying 
to know (and thus guide) *each* student - not just Harry. Why not go 
for a one-on-one to understand more about the child he wants to 
protect instead of doing that job in a classroom filled with other 
students of his? A teacher is supposed to be fair to all students. 
So, why ignore that person who is eager to answer the questions and 
focus *only* on Harry? Being in the teacher's position in the 
classroom, I'm sure Snape had a much better view of Hermione dying to 
answer! Why not try anyone else other than Harry? He can, of course, 
*watch* Harry silently, as Alla mentioned in an earlier post. 

> Leah:
> Unfortunately, Harry doesn't know the answers and makes matters
> worse by cheeking Snape. 

[snip]

> Alla:
> No, it is not just cheek, in my opinion it is not cheek at all. I
> read it as Harry sincerely answering Snape that Hermione knows.

> Leah: Hermione has put her hand up to every question.By this stage 
> she is standing up waving her hand in desperation to show she's not 
> a dunderhead. Unless Harry believes Snape to be blind and deaf, 
> Harry must understand that Snape knows Hermione knows the 
> answers. "Why don't you try her?" is cheek pure and simple. How do 
> you think Minerva would have reacted? The class laugh so they too 
> can see that it is cheek. 

> Leah: 
[snip]
> It is cheek, but I can understand it because Harry is reacting 
because he feels got at, and 
> that is the way he would have reacted to Vernon. 

Joey:

I agree with Leah. It *is* cheek, as per me. I remember gasping 
slightly when I read this "Why don't you try her?" for the first time 
ever and was waiting to watch what would follow. :-) And like Leah, I 
fully agree with the reasons why Harry cheeked. But *I enjoyed* the 
cheek. :-) Definitely reckless and far-fetched for a first-day-at-an-
indeed-new-school, yeah, but hey what are fantasy stories for if they 
are *too* usual? :-)
 
Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  6 14:51:55 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:51:55 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmggsi+holr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmhiqb+odam@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185678

> Zara:
> While it is not deniable that Harry has some physical resemblance 
to 
> James, this is not where the resemblance ends. Your insistence that 
> this important conflict of the series comes down to this one 
> superficial factor, again, does not convince. Snape, on assorted 
> occaeions, when expressing his own disapproval of Harry, brings up 
> many other things, things which I could certainly see being 
> irritating to a teacher responsible for Harry's safety, to a person 
> of a studious disposition, or to someone who found James Potter not 
> to his taste long before Lily and Amor entered the picture.

Magpie:
I tend to think that if we were in Snape's pov Harry would be doing 
things that prove he's like James, yes. But then, that's often how it 
works. I think he absolutely started out with a bias against Harry, 
and antagonized Harry, and then saw what he expected to see. With 
Snape antagonizing him, Harry got angry back and showed him as little 
respect as James did (though James had power over him Harry did not). 
Not surprising on Harry's part, of course. He didn't start off with 
any bias against Snape or not. Snape in many ways shot himself in the 
foot by poking at Harry because Harry, with years of practice, 
responded with the kind of cheek that made James seem charming too. 
It reads to me like a classic case of Snape unable to help himself 
from trying to needle Harry and then when Harry zings him on some 
level it feels like all those times James zings him and he gets angry 
as if Harry just zinged him to show he was superior the way James 
would have done. Though Snape himself might have thought of it as 
testing Harry to see if he was a jerk like his father and look, he 
was.

Regarding the questions, for instance, it's true that many teachers 
ask questions the first day. They might even set up a situation like 
this where they make a student or students look foolish to establish 
that they are there to be taught by him and he knows everything, and 
to grab power right off. I would not be surprised if it was indeed 
routine for Snape to start off by doing something like this the first 
day to throw the kids off kilter.

But I think when he did it to Harry it was clearly beyond that and 
all the kids could sense he was bullying this one boy because he 
disliked him. Harry was perfectly correct in having that impression 
that day, that the class was an ambush. Snape doing it in a less 
personal way would come across differently--as it does when he calls 
the whole class dunderheads. Or if he'd asked 3 different kids 
questions and insulted them all when they got them wrong (or right) 
it would have come across more like a teacher establishing that this 
was his personality. That, I think, is the Snape most people see, but 
that's not what he's doing to Harry.

 
> > Trekkie:
> > Snape's a fullblood bigot. He's a halfblood wizard but a 
fullblood 
> > bigot, just like Voldie. He WANTS to be something he's not. 
> 
> Zara:
> This, of course, is why his private name for himself, with which he 
> adorned what was probably his most prized possession, was "The 
*Half-
> Blood* Prince". Wait, no, that makes no sense to me at all.
> 
> I do agree he probably wanted to be a pureblood/wished he had been 
> born one, but I don't think it was out of any belief in racial 
> superiority. He probably cherished some idea this would have given 
> him a father who actually liked something rather than not much of 
> anything. Maybe even, a father who liked him and his mother. Not to 
> mention the possibility of growing up around other kids like 
himself, 
> where his dress would not mark him as odd, and he could make 
> connections with friends and relatives which he would not need to 
> leave behind upon entering school and adult life.

Magpie:
Does it really matter what exactly he thought made Purebloods 
superior? He joined a bigoted group that was blatantly Pureblood-
superiority, used slurs and ultimately thought the society needed to 
be "cleansed" of Mudbloods. (I think he was raised on the philosophy 
as well based on his hesitation about Lily being in Slytherin--and 
that he did indeed know that blood counted for being Slytherin.) I'm 
sure lots of DEs had different ways that they arrived at this 
philosophy being okay. One could probably explain away every one of 
them--including Voldemort--as not really having a belief in racial 
superiority based on the fact that racial superiority isn't really 
rational so why would anyone really believe it? For a time Snape 
openly supported the elevation of Purebloods as superior, whatever 
that meant to him. I also think he believed it in some way. He may 
never have completely gotten over the belief, frankly, no matter how 
ashamed he was over how he treated Lily. Loving a Muggleborn or 
wanting to be friends with one does not mean he couldn't also be a 
Pureblood supremist.

Carol:
Shelley sees them as right and
justified; I see them as bullies taunting a child they don't know
without provocation much as James taunted Severus for wanting to be in
Slytherin twenty years earlier.

Magpie:
Even if they have some reason to dislike him, he's an 11 year old and 
they're how old at this point? What could he have done that 
necessitated that kind of public humiliation his first day? I read it 
as Fred and George simply hissing when someone was Sorted into 
Slytherin the same way they'd clap if he was Sorted into Gryffindor. 
If challenged about it I imagine they would say it was just a 
friendly rivalry and a joke and of course the kid would understand 
that.

-m




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 15:49:10 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:49:10 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmhiqb+odam@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmhm5m+pm25@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185679

> Magpie:
>  He didn't start off with 
> any bias against Snape or not.

Zara:
Based on their brief interaction in the Great Hall and Harry's dream 
the night before class, I consider this debatable. That Harry was 
not, to Snape, just any new student in his class, I would agree. That 
Snape deliberately and with malicious forethought planned out a 
scheme to make Harry miserable from Day One, I'd say we lack the 
evidence to conclude. 

> Magpie:
> Does it really matter what exactly he thought made Purebloods 
> superior? 

Zara:
That depends on what we are trying to establish, does it not? From a 
practical standpoint, it would have made no difference to Muggleborn  
victims of the Death Eaters in whose victimhood Snape was complicit. 
On the other hand, as you state later:

> Magpie:
> He may 
> never have completely gotten over the belief, frankly, no matter 
how 
> ashamed he was over how he treated Lily. 

Zara:
Such a statement is meaningless if Snape never had such a belief. He 
would have nothing to "get over". As I am willing to stipulate that 
Snape is responsible as (at the least) an accessory to crimes 
motivated by bloodism, I'm only interested in the topic in terms of 
what was going on in Snape's head. And in such a discussion, of 
course it matters what he believed.

I did not, I would point out, argue Snape thought Purebloods were 
superior. Merely that he wanted to be one, for the advantages I 
listed, that he had reason to suppose would have accrued to him if he 
were one. 

For example, as a middle school student, I wanted to be a perfectly 
coiffed and made up, regular-featured, designer-jean-clad popular 
girl. This was not because I believed them to be superior, but 
because I wished to enjoy such advantages as having someone to sit 
next to in the cafeteria, and not being called by "nicknames" based 
on Pinocchio. On the contrary, I did not. For better or for worse, I 
knew I was brainier than any of them, and believed that was what 
mattered. 

I am inclined to believe young Snape similarly regarded his own (and, 
for that matter, Lily's) prodigious magical talent as a sign of their 
mutual superiority to more mediocre witches and wizards. The 
conversation you mention, in the little thicket, is where I mostly 
get this idea from. His reasons for stating Lily's blood does not 
matter, include not only his affection (the sentence he would not 
complete, I imagine, would have ended with some very flattering 
assessment of her looks and/or personality), but also the observation 
that she has "loads of magic" and anyone can see that. In addition, 
there is his proud private name for himself, that he used on the book 
in which he recorded his inventions.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 17:15:52 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 17:15:52 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmhm5m+pm25@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmhr88+29so@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185680

> > Magpie:
> >  He didn't start off with 
> > any bias against Snape or not.
> 
> Zara:
> Based on their brief interaction in the Great Hall and Harry's 
dream 
> the night before class, I consider this debatable.

Alla:

And after this interaction and his dream Harry comes to Potion class 
thinking about how horrible the professor will be, how much he will 
suffer...  I do not think so. Quite the contrary, narrator says that 
Snape just as McGonagall has a gift to keep class quiet (paraphrase). 
Yes, I know Harry is not narrator, but narrator describes how Harry 
feels and it seems to me that Harry decided to disregard the pain he 
felt (he thought) from Snape and just give him a chance. Not  till 
Snape starts bullying him and takes a point off for not helping 
Neville, Harry starts thinking bad thoughts about greasy git.

So, yes I agree with Magpie completely.

Zara:
That Harry was
not, to Snape, just any new student in his class, I would agree.

Alla:

Harry looked exactly as Snape's rival in love, who won. Harry was 
someone whom Snape helped to become an orphan. Yes, I'd agree that 
Harry  was to Snape not just any new student.


Zara:
That
Snape deliberately and with malicious forethought planned out a
scheme to make Harry miserable from Day One, I'd say we lack the
evidence to conclude. <  BIG SNIP>

Alla:

You think Snape started spouting the nonsense about Harry's enjoying 
his celebrity status by accident then?

Trekkie:
<SNIP>
> Snape's a fullblood bigot. He's a half-blood wizard but a full blood
> bigot, just like Voldie. He WANTS to be something he's not. <SNIP>

Zara:
This, of course, is why his private name for himself, with which he
adorned what was probably his most prized possession, was "The *Half-
Blood* Prince". Wait, no, that makes no sense to me at all. <SNIP>

Alla:
I do not see how the fact that Snape gave himself this nickname 
proves that he was not a pureblood bigot. I can easily imagine 
somebody who believes that purebloods are superior and must rule and 
somebody who as you pointed out  may want to be one (I know you did 
not say that he thought they were superior, just that he may have 
wanted to be one), I can easily imagine that someone be so full of 
self loathing and anger that he would call himself Half blood prince. 
He acknowledges to himself that he never is anything else but half 
blood, but at least in his dreams he will call himself a royalty.

Of course it is a speculation, but really, the fact that he called 
himself that to me does not disprove what Trekkie wrote at all. AND 
the fact that nobody knew Snape's nickname tells me that he was not 
exactly proud of who he was and sort of supports my speculation.

JMO,

Alla





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  6 17:46:43 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 17:46:43 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmhm5m+pm25@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmht23+kp4d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185681

> Zara:
> Based on their brief interaction in the Great Hall and Harry's 
dream 
> the night before class, I consider this debatable. That Harry was 
> not, to Snape, just any new student in his class, I would agree. 
That 
> Snape deliberately and with malicious forethought planned out a 
> scheme to make Harry miserable from Day One, I'd say we lack the 
> evidence to conclude. 

Magpie:
I don't think he needed malice forethought or a scheme. I imagine 
just *looking* at Harry sitting there looking like James Snape was 
primed whether he meant to be or not. Harry was doomed to set him off 
more easily than any other student.

Not that this is unusual for any teacher. We all have types that get 
on our nerves. Neville gets it from Snape, too, but there's no hint 
it's because Snape hated Neville's father. However in Snape's case we 
*do* know about his history with James, and Harry is right for 
feeling like Snape "hates him" that first day. Harry does not go into 
class expecting Snape to behave the way he does to him at all. He 
seems to be viewing Snape as just one more new teacher. He's 
surprised at feeling like the guy has something against him.

> Zara:
> Such a statement is meaningless if Snape never had such a belief. 
He 
> would have nothing to "get over". As I am willing to stipulate that 
> Snape is responsible as (at the least) an accessory to crimes 
> motivated by bloodism, I'm only interested in the topic in terms of 
> what was going on in Snape's head. And in such a discussion, of 
> course it matters what he believed.
> 
> I did not, I would point out, argue Snape thought Purebloods were 
> superior. Merely that he wanted to be one, for the advantages I 
> listed, that he had reason to suppose would have accrued to him if 
he 
> were one. 

Magpie:
I guess I made that leap because I've so often used as the first step 
to "Snape wasn't really a bigot" to get Snape out of that repulsive 
thing. My bad. 

Zara:> 
> For example, as a middle school student, I wanted to be a perfectly 
> coiffed and made up, regular-featured, designer-jean-clad popular 
> girl. This was not because I believed them to be superior, but 
> because I wished to enjoy such advantages as having someone to sit 
> next to in the cafeteria, and not being called by "nicknames" based 
> on Pinocchio. 

Magpie:
So let's see...you saw that they were considered superior and wanted 
that level of respect even if you didn't see what was so great about 
them. I think that's common for kids. It's basically exactly the way 
Snape felt about James, I would guess. He thought James was inferior 
to him but dammit, he got all these advantages just because he had 
all these gifts. Which Snape would surely also want because isn't it 
easier being handsome and talented and charming? 

Iow, I could easily believe that he does consider being good-looking 
better than being ugly, that being physically talented is better than 
being awkward--he just thinks James was unfairly blessed. Of course 
when it comes to blood we're not talking about any type of talent, 
just being part of a group.

Zara:

> I am inclined to believe young Snape similarly regarded his own 
(and, 
> for that matter, Lily's) prodigious magical talent as a sign of 
their 
> mutual superiority to more mediocre witches and wizards. The 
> conversation you mention, in the little thicket, is where I mostly 
> get this idea from. His reasons for stating Lily's blood does not 
> matter, include not only his affection (the sentence he would not 
> complete, I imagine, would have ended with some very flattering 
> assessment of her looks and/or personality), but also the 
observation 
> that she has "loads of magic" and anyone can see that. In addition, 
> there is his proud private name for himself, that he used on the 
book 
> in which he recorded his inventions.

Magpie:
Yeah, but I think when you're dealing with something like bigotry 
it's just more complicated. We don't know, of course, since we're not 
in Snape's head but I get from reading it that Snape had internalized 
the difference between Purebloods and everyone else even by that age. 
Even though it was hurtful to him as a Half-blood (at least he was a 
Prince, his mother may have told him). His words about Lily and he 
having "loads of magic" could imply that they are just as good as 
Purebloods, still using them as the understood top.

But of course, that's just speculation. But I don't see why his 
private name for himself shows he doesn't believe in Pureblood 
superiority, myself. It's often described as such, but to me it just 
seems like he had a complicated relationship with his blood status--
the kind of relationship Harry didn't have because to 
Harry "Pureblood" was a term of no value at all. 

I could think of a kid as just wishing he was Pureblood as really 
meaning "I wish my father was a wizard too so he understood me." But 
if the kid eventually joined the DEs? I would probably think there 
was a little more going on with that. Eventually he expressed himself 
in the most bigoted terms possible. Eventually he clung to his Wizard 
Blood as being the thing about him he did have to be proud of, and 
something he would use to put down others. 

-m




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb  6 18:14:33 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 18:14:33 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <498B906E.2060409@stofanet.dk>
Message-ID: <gmhum9+4ogf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185682

Trekkie:
> And 'Dumbledore doesn't make it easier, since he never ever steps in
and  tells him to behave. Thereby silently endorsing Snape's
behaviour. So  yes, Dumbledore is at LEAST as much at fault as Snape.
Perhaps even 
> more, because as someone mentioned earlier, Snape is as emotionally 
> crippled as Sirius, albeit in a different way.
> 
> But Dumbledore knew both of them and should have known better.
> 

Pippin:
How is Dumbledore supposed to make it easier?

 What's he supposed to say, "Stop acting like an emotional cripple or
I'll have to sack you"? How would that work? He might as well tell
Moody not to limp. There is no treatment for chronic emotional
distress in the WW, beyond confinement in St Mungo's for those who
aren't capable of observing the statutes of secrecy. 

Besides, we don't know what Dumbledore's plan B was. It might have
been getting someone else to protect Harry, but it could just as
easily have been giving Harry up for lost and finding someone else to
destroy the remaining soul bit ( since Dumbledore did not yet guess
there was more than one.)

Pippin




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 20:16:44 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 20:16:44 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmhr88+29so@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmi5rc+u25t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185683

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> > > Magpie:
> > >  He didn't start off with 
> > > any bias against Snape or not.
> > 
> > Zara:
> > Based on their brief interaction in the Great Hall and Harry's 
> dream 
> > the night before class, I consider this debatable.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> And after this interaction and his dream Harry comes to Potion class 
> thinking about how horrible the professor will be, how much he will 
> suffer...  I do not think so. Quite the contrary, narrator says that 
> Snape just as McGonagall has a gift to keep class quiet (paraphrase). 
> Yes, I know Harry is not narrator, but narrator describes how Harry 
> feels and it seems to me that Harry decided to disregard the pain he 
> felt (he thought) from Snape and just give him a chance. Not  till 
> Snape starts bullying him and takes a point off for not helping 
> Neville, Harry starts thinking bad thoughts about greasy git.
> 
> So, yes I agree with Magpie completely.

Montavilla47:

I'm going to pretty much agree with Magpie.  Harry was no
more biased against Snape than the average firstie would be.
I mean, the guy dresses in black, wears his hair in that weird
do, and cultivates an air of meanness and mystery.  No kid is
going to walk into his class without a bit of dread.

And, of course, Snape had every reason to feel strongly 
about Harry.  This kid was Snape's reason for not killing 
himself ten years earlier.  It's of enormous importance 
to him that Harry in some way resemble Lily--which
we know is only in the eyes.

He could have tried to figure Harry out by being nice
to him--but that's not really Snape's way, is it?  Even
when he approached Lily on the playground, he went 
about it all wrong.

> Alla:
> You think Snape started spouting the nonsense about Harry's enjoying 
> his celebrity status by accident then?

Montavilla47:
Actually, this is the part that I find most interesting about
the exchange between Harry and Snape.  We've seen the 
whole Wizarding world making idiots of themselves every
time Harry walks into the room--because Harry *is* 
a celebrity.  There is a *statue* erected to Harry and his
family in Godric's Hollow.  There were fireworks set off
all over England on the day after Harry lived.  There are
stories going through the ex-Death Eater circles that
Harry's the next Dark Lord.   His sorting elicits the 
biggest number of cheers, when Gryffindor "gets
Harry Potter!" 

He's a bigger story than Anna Nicole Smith's baby.

Which is, of course, the reason Dumbledore gives
for leaving Harry with the Dursleys.  He doesn't want
Harry growing up with all that adulation and speculation.
He wants Harry to grow up somewhat normal.

I doubt Snape was unaware of all this hoopla.  I mean,
how could he be?

Neither James nor Lily would be indifferent to that 
type of adulation.  James would have reveled in it, and
it might have turned even Lily's head.

Taking Harry down a peg signals to the other kids
that he's no one special and that they don't need to 
treat him like a celebrity.  And, although it certainly
doesn't feel like it, and I'm sure Snape didn't mean
it that way, this moment helps humanize Harry for 
the other kids in his year.  He's not going to be a 
the Boy-Who-Lived to them.  He's going to be the
Boy-Who-Cheeked-Snape.

It probably doesn't endear him to the Slytherins,
but I'll bet the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws started
thinking of Harry as being a lot more like a kid
than an icon after hearing about this moment.










From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 22:36:09 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 22:36:09 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmhiqb+odam@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmie0p+tq8l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185684

Magpie wrote:
> Does it really matter what exactly he thought made Purebloods 
superior? He joined a bigoted group that was blatantly Pureblood-
superiority, used slurs and ultimately thought the society needed to
be "cleansed" of Mudbloods. (I think he was raised on the philosophy
as well based on his hesitation about Lily being in Slytherin--and 
that he did indeed know that blood counted for being Slytherin.) <snip>

Carol responds:
That's an odd philosophy for someone who married a Muggle (eileen
Prince Snape) to teach her son. Unless, of course, she went around
moaning, "My parents were right! I should never have married a
Muggle.) But we don't see any indication that she says that. All we
see is her cowering when Tobias screams at her (she must be afraid of
being arrested if she uses magic against him or she wouldn't cower
like that). Severus can see for himself that Muggles aren't much good
if his father is any indication. (he isnt, but how would the boy know
that?) None of those things has any bearing on how he feels about
Muggleborns. His attraction to Lily seems to indicate that it doesn't
matter. he hopes she'll be Sorted into Slytherin, too--which indicates
that he hs no idea the slytherin, the House for "brains," doesn't
accept Muggleborns. Lily asks him if being a Muggleborn makes any
difference, but in context, she seems to be talkingabout magical
ability, not prejudice. IMO, he learned Pure-blood prejudice in
Slytherin, but part of him, the part that remembered he was a
Half-Blood, rejected that philosophy. He knew that he was at least as
talented as any Pure=blood. The other half of him clung to the Prince
half of his ancestry. Putting them together, you get the Half=blood
Prince. In contrast, Tom Riddle changed his name completely, rejecting
his "filthy Muggle father"'s name and heritage.

> Magpie:
> Even if they -the Twins] have some reason to dislike him [Malcolm
Baddock], he's an 11 year old and they're how old at this point? 

Carol:
It's Harry's fourth year, which makes them sixteen, five years older
than the little boy they're booing.

Magpie:
What could he have done that necessitated that kind of public
humiliation his first day? I read it as Fred and George simply hissing
when someone was Sorted into Slytherin the same way they'd clap if he
was Sorted into Gryffindor. 

Carol:
If that's the case, why pick on this one child? I agree that they
can't possibly have a reason to boo or hiss him the first day, and
they're more than old enough to know better.

Magpie:
> If challenged about it I imagine they would say it was just a 
friendly rivalry and a joke and of course the kid would understand  that.

Carol:
Friendly rivalry to be hissed by big teenagers who don't even know
you? I disagree. I think that the Twins' behavior is completely out of
line. Now, if the Quidditch captain had stood up to speak, I can see
them booing or hissing. They have reason to know that specific
Slytherin Quidditch players cheat. But an impressionable
eleven-year-old boy? They've just taught him a lesson--Gryffindor are
a bunch of rude, arrogant bullies.

Carol, who thinks their conduct is indefensible





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 22:51:45 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 22:51:45 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmhr88+29so@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmieu1+efg0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185685

Alla:
> 
> And after this interaction and his dream Harry comes to Potion class
thinking about how horrible the professor will be, how much he will 
suffer...  I do not think so. Quite the contrary, narrator says that
Snape just as McGonagall has a gift to keep class quiet (paraphrase).
Yes, I know Harry is not narrator, but narrator describes how Harry 
feels and it seems to me that Harry decided to disregard the pain he
felt (he thought) from Snape and just give him a chance. Not  till 
Snape starts bullying him and takes a point off for not helping 
Neville, Harry starts thinking bad thoughts about greasy git.

Carol responds:

The dream shows that, thanks to Hagrid, Percy, Draco, and others--not
to mention his delusion that Snape caused the pain in his scar--Harry
is predisposed to think that Snape is prejudiced against
non-Slytherins and particularly against Gryffindors. Snape's
questioning, which I admit is accompanied with sarcasm and Snape's own
assumptions about Harry, reinforces that negative impression, leading
Harry to think the worst and assume that Snape is trying to steal the
Sorceror's Stone.

As for the narrator's comment that Snape, like McGonagall, had the
gift of keeping the class quiet before he even spoke, that's not a
favorable observation but a simple (and neutral) statement of fact. We
see it again long after Harry has developed an active hatred for
Snape. That gift for walking into a room and holding the students'
attention is shown again as late as the DADA class, in which the
students' eyes follow Snape about the room as he speaks in a soft
voice they strain to hear. And we see it yet again, with adults, when
the DEs on the Tower, even the werewolf Fenrir Greyback, seem cowed by
his presence. So this statement is not evidence of the narrator's or
Harry's open-mindedness toward Snape. It's an inescapable facet of his
personality.

Carol, who thinks that Harry's relationship with Snape was marred by
mutual misunderstanding and preconceptions from Day One





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 22:59:11 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 22:59:11 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmieu1+efg0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmifbv+hn83@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185686

> Carol responds:
> 
> The dream shows that, thanks to Hagrid, Percy, Draco, and others--
not
> to mention his delusion that Snape caused the pain in his scar--
Harry
> is predisposed to think that Snape is prejudiced against
> non-Slytherins and particularly against Gryffindors.

Alla:

Not to me it does not show that. If I would have heard Harry thinking 
anything to that effect in class before Snape starts his questioning, 
that would have show me that Harry was *predisposed* to that. All 
that the dream showed me is that Harry had a dream, I saw nothing 
indicating that his dream influenced what he was thinking about Snape.

Carol:
Snape's
> questioning, which I admit is accompanied with sarcasm and Snape's 
own
> assumptions about Harry, reinforces that negative impression, 
leading
> Harry to think the worst and assume that Snape is trying to steal 
the
> Sorceror's Stone. <SNIP>

Alla:

And to me there is nothing to reinforce, for all I know Harry 
completely put this dream out of his mind before he went to class.


Carol: 
> As for the narrator's comment that Snape, like McGonagall, had the
> gift of keeping the class quiet before he even spoke, that's not a
> favorable observation but a simple (and neutral) statement of fact. 

Alla:

It is not a negative observation either, isn't it? And I disagree 
that it is neutral, I would not say that somebody has a gift of doing 
anything when I am disliking this person.


> Carol, who thinks that Harry's relationship with Snape was marred by
> mutual misunderstanding and preconceptions from Day One
>

Alla:

I know.




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 23:28:10 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 23:28:10 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmi5rc+u25t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmih2a+sqgd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185687

> Montavilla47:
> 
> I'm going to pretty much agree with Magpie.  Harry was no
> more biased against Snape than the average firstie would be.
> I mean, the guy dresses in black, wears his hair in that weird
> do, and cultivates an air of meanness and mystery.  No kid is
> going to walk into his class without a bit of dread.

Alla:

Well, yes :-)

Montavilla: 
> And, of course, Snape had every reason to feel strongly 
> about Harry.  This kid was Snape's reason for not killing 
> himself ten years earlier.  It's of enormous importance 
> to him that Harry in some way resemble Lily--which
> we know is only in the eyes.

Alla:

Yes, he has a right to feel anything he wants about anybody including 
Harry, I agree. As to whether he has a right to show it to Harry, my 
opinion - not so much.

Montavilla: 
> He could have tried to figure Harry out by being nice
> to him--but that's not really Snape's way, is it?  Even
> when he approached Lily on the playground, he went 
> about it all wrong.
> <SNIP>

Alla:

Well, yes sure he could have tried being nice. But believe me I am 
not requiring him to be nice. I mean that would have been great, but 
I know what character we are discussing, I know that he cannot be 
kind to the kid whom he already wronged so much in my view. I am 
talking about being neutral, I am talking about doing *business as 
usual* class and no, I do not believe for one second that this class 
was business as usual for Snape. I do not know if he sit down in his 
dungeons and worked a plan, or Harry's looks set him off (I would 
imagine second, but of course I do not know), but I think he did all 
of that for Harry only, IMO of course.

And if he truly genuinely worried that Harry could be next Dark Lord, 
again, why not do that extraordinary thing and just **watch** him 
without antagonizing him? See how he interacts with kids, see how 
much magic he knows during **several** lessons, and then, THEN make 
your conclusions.


> > Alla:
> > You think Snape started spouting the nonsense about Harry's 
enjoying 
> > his celebrity status by accident then?
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Actually, this is the part that I find most interesting about
> the exchange between Harry and Snape.  We've seen the 
> whole Wizarding world making idiots of themselves every
> time Harry walks into the room--because Harry *is* 
> a celebrity.  <SNIP> I doubt Snape was unaware of all this hoopla.  
I mean,
> how could he be?<SNIP>

Alla:

I am not sure that Snape being aware of all that also means that he 
has a right to make the conclusion that Harry likes it. He also aware 
that Harry lived in the Muggle world, no? So, to me it would make 
sense to actually see first if Harry is enjoying being a celebrity 
before judging him.


Montavilla: 
> Neither James nor Lily would be indifferent to that 
> type of adulation.  James would have reveled in it, and
> it might have turned even Lily's head. <SNIP>

Alla:

I do not know if we have any evidence that Lily would have liked it 
one way or another.

JMO,

Alla




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Feb  7 03:48:05 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 03:48:05 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmie0p+tq8l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmj09l+9sdr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185688

> Magpie wrote:
> > Does it really matter what exactly he thought made Purebloods 
> superior? He joined a bigoted group that was blatantly Pureblood-
> superiority, used slurs and ultimately thought the society needed to
> be "cleansed" of Mudbloods. (I think he was raised on the philosophy
> as well based on his hesitation about Lily being in Slytherin--and 
> that he did indeed know that blood counted for being Slytherin.) 
<snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> That's an odd philosophy for someone who married a Muggle (eileen
> Prince Snape) to teach her son. Unless, of course, she went around
> moaning, "My parents were right! I should never have married a
> Muggle.) But we don't see any indication that she says that. All we
> see is her cowering when Tobias screams at her (she must be afraid 
of
> being arrested if she uses magic against him or she wouldn't cower
> like that). Severus can see for himself that Muggles aren't much 
good
> if his father is any indication. (he isnt, but how would the boy 
know
> that?) None of those things has any bearing on how he feels about
> Muggleborns. His attraction to Lily seems to indicate that it 
doesn't
> matter. he hopes she'll be Sorted into Slytherin, too--which 
indicates
> that he hs no idea the slytherin, the House for "brains," doesn't
> accept Muggleborns. 

Magpie:
I could easily believe Eileen taught him that philosophy, especially 
if she was cowering in front of her husband. Lily says his parents 
fight, and I could easily imagine a wife throwing 'filthy Muggle' 
etc. at him and possibly telling her son that he's lucky he'll take 
after his mother's noble Prince blood. 

Of course we don't know this. We do know that Snape, who knows a lot 
about Hogwarts, wants to be a Slytherin already when he's a child, 
and I see no reason why he'd be so confused as you assume he is here. 
He can think it's a brainier house than Gryffindor without mistaking 
it for the actual House that Sorts of brains. (The Hat wouldn't make 
that mistake.) 

As for whether his friendship with Lily shows he doesn't care, sure 
he wants to be friends with Lily. But if we're talking about bigotry 
(and JKR seems to want to think she's making this book about that if 
it's a plea for tolerance) then it's perfectly common for a lonely 
kid raised around bigoted ideas to nonetheless want to be friends 
with a kid he likes even if they're not the right group. In Snape's 
case Lily was a fellow witch, which would make her seemingly the one 
special kid he knew besides himself. He likes Lily, despite already 
doing stuff like carelessly remarking that Petunia being hurt doesn't 
matter since she's "only a Muggle", and the hatred of Muggleborns 
comes from their being Muggles. 

I don't know how Snape's beliefs actually developed, but it's not 
like it's uncommon for bigoted beliefs to show up in different ways 
at different times depending on what else is going on in a person's 
life. He might have become attracted to them only when he was a 
Slytherin, though I think in the few childhood scenes we see there's 
already hints about it being an issue that wouldn't be put there if 
Snape had never heard of the stuff before. We can only speculate 
about a lot of it, of course.

> > Magpie:
> > Even if they -the Twins] have some reason to dislike him [Malcolm
> Baddock], he's an 11 year old and they're how old at this point? 
> 
> Carol:
> It's Harry's fourth year, which makes them sixteen, five years older
> than the little boy they're booing.

Magpie:
I can't imagine how terrified I would be if on my first day of 
boarding school at 11 some random 16 year old boys booed at me.

 
> Magpie:
> What could he have done that necessitated that kind of public
> humiliation his first day? I read it as Fred and George simply 
hissing
> when someone was Sorted into Slytherin the same way they'd clap if 
he
> was Sorted into Gryffindor. 
> 
> Carol:
> If that's the case, why pick on this one child? I agree that they
> can't possibly have a reason to boo or hiss him the first day, and
> they're more than old enough to know better.

Magpie:
Is it highlighted that they only pick on him? I don't have the 
passage in front of me, but I had the impression the narrator just 
happened to mention what they were doing at a particular moment, and 
at that moment they were booing because a kid who happened to be 
named Malcolm Baddock had been Sorted into Slytherin. As if it might 
as well have caught them at a moment where they were blowing up 
another salamander--iow, it's not that there's specific about this 
salamander or this experiment, it was just a snapshot that showed the 
type of thing the Twins did. I assumed they booed *all* the little 
kids who got Sorted into Slytherin--or at least often did if they 
felt like it. Not that they had anything particular against Malcolm 
Baddock. 

 
> Magpie:
> > If challenged about it I imagine they would say it was just a 
> friendly rivalry and a joke and of course the kid would understand  
that.
> 
> Carol:
> Friendly rivalry to be hissed by big teenagers who don't even know
> you? I disagree. I think that the Twins' behavior is completely out 
of
> line. 

Magpie:
So do I. I said that's what they would say if challenged about it, 
not how I would interpret it. C.S. Lewish I think talks about that 
kind of bullying that then pressures the victim to agree that it's 
funny or be accused of not having a sense of humor. I think the Twins 
are those kind of guys. (And James and Sirius probably were too.)

-m




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 06:17:53 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 06:17:53 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmih2a+sqgd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmj92h+cq6i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185689

> > Montavilla47:
> > Actually, this is the part that I find most interesting about
> > the exchange between Harry and Snape.  We've seen the 
> > whole Wizarding world making idiots of themselves every
> > time Harry walks into the room--because Harry *is* 
> > a celebrity.  <SNIP> I doubt Snape was unaware of all this hoopla.  
> I mean,
> > how could he be?<SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I am not sure that Snape being aware of all that also means that he 
> has a right to make the conclusion that Harry likes it. He also aware 
> that Harry lived in the Muggle world, no? So, to me it would make 
> sense to actually see first if Harry is enjoying being a celebrity 
> before judging him.

Montavilla47:
Yes, although we don't know definitely, I think it's a safe assumption
that Snape knows that Harry was raised in the Muggle world.  

And, while it would make sense to see if Harry is enjoying his
new-found celebrity, it might make more sense (to Snape)
to let everyone know that Harry isn't the big hero (or Dark Lord) 
they are  building him up to be.

> Montavilla: 
> > Neither James nor Lily would be indifferent to that 
> > type of adulation.  James would have reveled in it, and
> > it might have turned even Lily's head. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I do not know if we have any evidence that Lily would have liked it 
> one way or another.
> 
Montavilla47:
No.  I'm inferring it from the way that we're told (it's almost the 
first thing we know about Lily) that she was the star in her
parent's eyes, and that she was very popular both in school and 
throughout the Wizarding world.  Adding to that her upset at 
Snape costing her cool points with her friends and it seems to 
me that popularity was important to Lily.

JMO.







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 18:01:53 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 18:01:53 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmih2a+sqgd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmkiah+cj06@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185690

Alla wrote:
<snip> 
> And if he truly genuinely worried that Harry could be next Dark
Lord, again, why not do that extraordinary thing and just **watch**
him without antagonizing him? See how he interacts with kids, see how
much magic he knows during **several** lessons, and then, THEN make
your conclusions.

Carol responds:
Later, he does exactly that. Watch him in the Duelling Club scene in
CoS. Whether he suggests Serpensortia to Draco or not, he certainly
observes that Harry speaks Parseltongue to the snake. He gives Harry a
scrutinizing look but says nothing and then Vanishes the conjured
snake. (We don't see it, but he undoubtedly reports to Dumbledore
immediately afterwards.)

> 
> Montavilla: 
> > Neither James nor Lily would be indifferent to that type of
adulation.  James would have reveled in it, and it might have turned
even Lily's head. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I do not know if we have any evidence that Lily would have liked it
one way or another.

Carol:
But we *do* have a pretty clear indication of how James would have
reacted. And, given what Harry will ultimately have to do, an arrogant
Harry is *not* a good idea, which, IMO, is why DD was perfectly
content to have Snape prick Harry's celebrity bubble before his head
grew as large as James's had (figuratively speaking). Whatever Snape's
*intentions*, the consequence was that Harry was clearly not regarded
as a genius or prodigy by his schoolmates (who would have found out
quickly enough, in any case, that Harry was no better than they were
at anything except flying). Snape's treatment of Harry, again,
regardless of his intentions, causes the Gryffindors in the class as
one of them and the Slytherins in the class to see him as neither a
threat nor a potential Dark Lord, all to the good in terms of making
"our new celebrity" just another kid in the class to everyone except
Snape, who, as he later says, doesn't take cheek from anyone, not even
the Chosen One.

Carol, not defending Snape so much as pointing out that actions, as so
often in the HP books, have unintended consequences, in this case,
good ones




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 18:12:48 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 18:12:48 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmj09l+9sdr@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmkiv0+4icv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185691

Magpie wrote:
><snip>
> As for whether his friendship with Lily shows he doesn't care, sure 
> he wants to be friends with Lily. But if we're talking about bigotry 
> (and JKR seems to want to think she's making this book about that if 
> it's a plea for tolerance) then it's perfectly common for a lonely 
> kid raised around bigoted ideas to nonetheless want to be friends 
> with a kid he likes even if they're not the right group. In Snape's 
> case Lily was a fellow witch, which would make her seemingly the one 
> special kid he knew besides himself. He likes Lily, despite already 
> doing stuff like carelessly remarking that Petunia being hurt doesn't 
> matter since she's "only a Muggle", and the hatred of Muggleborns 
> comes from their being Muggles. <snip>

Carol responds:
Actually, the prejudice against Muggleborns comes from their having
Muggle *blood*, not from their being Muggles, which they are clearly
not. Severus distinguishes between Lily and Petunia perhaps partly on
unstated factors like looks, behavior, and age, but primarily and
overtly because Petunia is "only a Muggle." She can't do magic, which
distinguishes her from Severus and Lily. She won't go to Hogwarts with
them. She's "Other." Lily, however, is like Severus, a magical child.
He specifically states that she's a witch and that his mother is also
a witch. Petunia, in contrast, is a Muggle like his mundane,
unmagical, and apparently abusive father. The fact that Lily is
Muggleborn, having two Muggleborn parents rather than one like himself
is, IMO, irrelavant to his feelings toward her. It's Us (Sev and Lily
and Eileen) vs. Them (Tobias and Petunia).

I do wonder, however, what would have happened if Petunia were the
Witch and Lily the Muggle. Would he still have watched them in the
playground and wanted to make friends with just the Witch? Or would
the pretty little Muggle have changed his mind about the superiority
of magical people over nonmagical people?

Carol, who sees a clear anti-Muggle prejudice (somewhat justified by
his own experience) in little Severus but no hint yet of prejudice
against Muggleborns




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 18:26:35 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 18:26:35 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmkiah+cj06@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmkjor+dolm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185692


Alla:
>
> I do not know if we have any evidence that Lily would have liked it
> one way or another.
>
Montavilla47:
No. I'm inferring it from the way that we're told (it's almost the
first thing we know about Lily) that she was the star in her
parent's eyes, and that she was very popular both in school and
throughout the Wizarding world. 


Alla:

Ah. Okay, I see. I do not agree, but I see what you mean. I guess I 
observed too often one of my favorite kids in the world being 
extremely hungry for attention of her parents and myself all the time 
and being so so completely NOT wanting attention anywhere else that 
to me one does not necessarily translates into another. But again, 
certainly I understand the assumption; it just not sufficient for me.


Montavilla47:
Adding to that her upset at
Snape costing her cool points with her friends and it seems to
me that popularity was important to Lily.

Alla:

That I do not see at all. I mean, I do not see how you interpret her 
remark to Snape that he costs her cool points with her friends. Isn't 
she being upset on behalf of her friend and saying that her friends 
warned her about him? Or are you talking about another accident?

Again, I cannot disprove that popularity was important to Lily; I 
just do not think that we can prove it either. IMO of course.


Alla wrote:
<snip>
> And if he truly genuinely worried that Harry could be next Dark
Lord, again, why not do that extraordinary thing and just **watch**
him without antagonizing him? <SNIP>
Carol responds:
Later, he does exactly that. Watch him in the Duelling Club scene in
CoS. <SNIP>

Alla:

Um, yes, he does. More than a year later, when Harry is pretty set in 
thinking that Snape is the evil personified.


Carol:
<SNIP>
Whatever Snape's
*intentions*, the consequence was that Harry was clearly not regarded
as a genius or prodigy by his schoolmates (who would have found out
quickly enough, in any case, that Harry was no better than they were
at anything except flying).
<SNIP>

Carol, not defending Snape so much as pointing out that actions, as so
often in the HP books, have unintended consequences, in this case,
good ones

Alla:

As Zara somewhere in the thread said about a different thing ? I am 
only interested in the topic as related to what is happening in 
Snape's head (paraphrasing). That is pretty much my thought, albeit 
related to first lesson. So, really I do not care at all about 
unintended good consequences of Snape's actions, I mean, I think they 
were not all good at all, but even if they are, to me it does not 
matter.

Pippin:
How is Dumbledore supposed to make it easier?

What's he supposed to say, "Stop acting like an emotional cripple or
I'll have to sack you"? 

Alla:

Well, more like stop doing such and such things, or I will have to 
sack you? I do not know why this seems like such strange idea, lol.

Pippin:
How would that work? 

Alla:

He would sack him? No, seriously, if we are talking from within of 
the story, why not? I mean, we all know why not, because Dumbledore 
has plans, but to me that what makes him equally responsible.

Pippin:
He might as well tell
Moody not to limp. There is no treatment for chronic emotional
distress in the WW, beyond confinement in St Mungo's for those who
aren't capable of observing the statutes of secrecy.

Alla:

Well, we are back again to how much Snape can control him, I guess. 

Pippin:
Besides, we don't know what Dumbledore's plan B was. It might have
been getting someone else to protect Harry, but it could just as
easily have been giving Harry up for lost and finding someone else to
destroy the remaining soul bit ( since Dumbledore did not yet guess
there was more than one.)

Alla:

Lesser of two evils? If that was Dumbledore's plan B, well, that just 
another point for evil Dumbledore in my opinion.

I have to say though, pissed at Dumbledore as I am after book 7, I 
was in a way pleased to hear that at least he did not agree with 
Snape about Harry. I was angry that he did not interfene, but at 
least he paid no attention to Snape's assesment of Harry.

JMO,

Alla





From sherriola at gmail.com  Sat Feb  7 18:35:45 2009
From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 10:35:45 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmkjor+dolm@eGroups.com>
References: <gmkiah+cj06@eGroups.com> <gmkjor+dolm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <E6E0F76A51CF46198A93BA21752779AB@Pensieve>

No: HPFGUIDX 185693

Pippin:
He might as well tell
Moody not to limp. There is no treatment for chronic emotional
distress in the WW, beyond confinement in St Mungo's for those who
aren't capable of observing the statutes of secrecy.



Sherry:
Maybe there is no treatment, but Moody's limp cannot emotionally or
psychologically damage a child, as Snape's behavior could do.  He had no
business teaching, and Dumbledore was a terrible headmaster to have allowed
it to continue.  Of course, it all had to happen for the story's sake, but
that doesn't make it right.  I had an emotionally abusive teacher in high
school, and it affected me for many, many years beyond that, to the point
that after high school graduation, the mere idea of more school made me
physically ill.  Whatever good Snape did later in the series--for the sake
of his love for lily of course--it doesn't negate for me the way he treated
his students.

Sherry




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Feb  7 20:39:20 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 20:39:20 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmkiv0+4icv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmkrho+hdnh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185694

> Carol responds:
> Actually, the prejudice against Muggleborns comes from their having
> Muggle *blood*, not from their being Muggles, which they are clearly
> not. 

Magpie:
Right, but it's the MUGGLEborn of the name that is the problem. 
They're not wizards by blood, they're artificial wizards or 
something. Hermione gets called a Muggle twice that I can remember, 
both times with the person of course knowing that she's a witch by 
calling her a Muggle because that's what her blood is as inherited 
from her parents.

Carol:
Severus distinguishes between Lily and Petunia perhaps partly on
> unstated factors like looks, behavior, and age, but primarily and
> overtly because Petunia is "only a Muggle." She can't do magic, 
which
> distinguishes her from Severus and Lily. 

Magpie:
Yes, I was just saying that Snape has already attached "only a" to 
the idea of Muggle--it doesn't matter what Petunia thinks, her 
relationship with Lily doesn't matter even though she's her sisterand 
I don't think that means that he can't already also have been taught 
some ideas about Muggleborns vs. Wizards as well, which he is 
disregarding for his friendship with Lily that he wants so badly. At 
that age Lily doesn't see Muggles as an inferior species.

At this point Severus is, I agree, seeing Muggles as "the other" 
while he and Lily are the same. Later he calls out Lily as being 
different as a Muggleborn. I don't think he *must* have considered 
that distinction only after he got into Slytherin. He could have 
already heard it and just dealt with it whichever way he did while he 
was friends with Lily.

Carol:
The fact that Lily is
> Muggleborn, having two Muggleborn parents rather than one like 
himself
> is, IMO, irrelavant to his feelings toward her. It's Us (Sev and 
Lily
> and Eileen) vs. Them (Tobias and Petunia).

Magpie:
We don't know if they're irrelevent since we're not in his head. I'm 
just disagreeing that it's canon that Severus had never considered 
the Muggleborn distinction until later. I find it just as easy to 
believe he heard it at home first and simply thought his friendship 
with Lily was more important. All we know for sure is that he never 
said to her that Muggleborns were inferior until his fifth year. Did 
he first hear that idea in Slytherin or before then? We don't know. I 
just don't take it as a given that it was the former. I thought his 
hesitation about whether or not Lily could be a Slytherin was a small 
boy knowing it was a problem but hoping it didn't apply to Lily.

His mother was, I assume, a Slytherin, knew what Slytherin stood for 
and held some Slytherin values, whoever she married. After the bloom 
had worn off her marriage or even before she could have spoken of her 
blood as being superior for being Pure. 

Carol: 
> I do wonder, however, what would have happened if Petunia were the
> Witch and Lily the Muggle. Would he still have watched them in the
> playground and wanted to make friends with just the Witch? Or would
> the pretty little Muggle have changed his mind about the superiority
> of magical people over nonmagical people?

Magpie:
Or would he have not thought about it enough except to assume Lily 
was an exception until she chose somebody he hated over him, at which 
point he'd say she was only a Muggle all along and beneath him?

-m




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 21:01:18 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 21:01:18 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmkjor+dolm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmksqu+kupp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185695

> Montavilla47:
> Adding to that her upset at
> Snape costing her cool points with her friends and it seems to
> me that popularity was important to Lily.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> That I do not see at all. I mean, I do not see how you interpret her 
> remark to Snape that he costs her cool points with her friends. Isn't 
> she being upset on behalf of her friend and saying that her friends 
> warned her about him? Or are you talking about another accident?

Montavilla47:
I'm not talking about any accident.  (Or did you mean *incident*?)
I'm talking about the memory where Lily scolds Snape for being
friends with people who did... something unspecified to her 
friend Mary.

I think you're right that she's concerned about her friend--but I 
think that she's also concerned that Snape's association with 
Slytherin bad boys is costing her points with her friends.  The reason
I think this is because she says that she's been making excuses to
those friends for him for years.  She sounds fed up about that.

To be honest, she sounds to me more upset about that than about
Mary--if she were mainly concerned about Mary, then Snape isn't
the person she should be talking to.  She ought to be talking to 
a teacher, or maybe a prefect.  Oh, wait.  Isn't Lily a prefect?  (Or
is that just fanon?) Maybe she ought to be exerting that authority 
over the people responsible.

Of course, there's nothing in the scene that indicates that she
hasn't spoken to the boys responsible.  Maybe she's just going
beyond that to scold those who laughed along with those who
did whatever it was they did.  


Alla:
> Again, I cannot disprove that popularity was important to Lily; I 
> just do not think that we can prove it either. IMO of course.

Montavilla47:
Yes.  That's the thing about inferences.  They can be supported,
but they can't be proven.


> Carol:
> <SNIP>
> Whatever Snape's
> *intentions*, the consequence was that Harry was clearly not regarded
> as a genius or prodigy by his schoolmates (who would have found out
> quickly enough, in any case, that Harry was no better than they were
> at anything except flying).
> <SNIP>
> 
> Carol, not defending Snape so much as pointing out that actions, as so
> often in the HP books, have unintended consequences, in this case,
> good ones

Montavilla47:
Yes.  But I think there's at least a possibility that he wasn't targeting
Harry *only* because of his James-hate.  







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 21:22:02 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 21:22:02 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmkjor+dolm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmku1q+m64g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185696

Alla earlier:
> <snip>
> > And if he truly genuinely worried that Harry could be next Dark
Lord, again, why not do that extraordinary thing and just **watch**
him without antagonizing him? <SNIP>

Carol earlier:
> Later, he does exactly that. Watch him in the Duelling Club scene in
CoS. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla again:
> 
> Um, yes, he does. More than a year later, when Harry is pretty set
in thinking that Snape is the evil personified.
> 

Carol responds:
I'm not sure what your point is here since, as we know, Harry is wrong
in his assessment of Snape. I'm merely saying that Snape *does*
observe Harry on occasion without antagonizing him, exactly as you
think he ought to do. He may do so on other occasions that we don't
know about because we're viewing him from Harry's point of view, which
is, as you point out, is strongly anti-Snape by this point--despite
his knowing that Snape saved him from Quirrell's broom hex. (Yes, I
know that Hermione ended the hex by mistakenly attacking Snape, but
her blunder could have caused Harry to fall to his death. snape kept
him alive and in the air until that point.)

BTW, Harry still observes Snape's gift of quieting a room all the way
through HBP. It's just a Snape trait, neither good nor bad in itself,
that not even Harry can fail to notice. It's like noting that his
schoolboy enemy, Draco, really can fly--in the same book, SS/PS. The
fact that Draco's boast happens to be true doesn't make Harry like him
any better. It's just a fact that he considers worthy of notice.
> 
> Carol earlier:
> <SNIP>
> Whatever Snape's *intentions*, the consequence was that Harry was
clearly not regarded as a genius or prodigy by his schoolmates (who
would have found out quickly enough, in any case, that Harry was no
better than they were at anything except flying).
> <SNIP>
> 
> Carol, not defending Snape so much as pointing out that actions, as
so often in the HP books, have unintended consequences, in this case,
good ones
> 
> Alla responded:
> 
> <snip> I am only interested in the topic as related to what is
happening in Snape's head (paraphrasing). <snip> So, really I do not
care at all about unintended good consequences of Snape's actions, I
mean, I think they were not all good at all, but even if they are, to
me it does not matter.
> 
Carol responds:
I see. It does, however, matter to me. The unintended consequences of
a character's actions is a frequent and important motif in the books,
which in my view merits discussion. (I'm not asking you to respond to
it, but I do hope you understand why I brought it up. It may not be
what you, specifically, were discussing, but it is related to the
topic at hand, Snape's initial interaction with Harry.)

In any case, we can't know what's going on in Snape's head because the
book isn't written from his point of view. We see him not only from
the outside but specifically through Harry's eyes, which pretty much
eliminates any of his interactions with the Slytherins when Harry
isn't watching or listening in. (I could speculate on Snape's
motivations, but that's all it would be--speculation. And besides,
we've been there many times before and I see no point in going back
over the same old ground.)

Both of us, however, are interested in Dumbledore's reasons for not
talking to Snape about his teaching tactics. That ties in with my
point about unintended consequences. As I said earlier, I think that
Dumbledore didn't object to Snape's tactic in deliberately revealing
that "our new celebrity" was no superwizard because of the benefit to
Harry of being seen as just another first-year (who happened to have a
scar and an unusual history). Whether Snape intended to do so or not,
he was (IMO) serving Dumbledore's end of keeping Harry from becoming
any more of a celebrity than he already was. (Lockhart inadvertently
serves the same purpose the following year by illustrating the perils
of celebrity and the consequences of fan worship. Granted, Lockhart
doesn't deserve his celebrity at all, having stolen it from its
rightful owners. But Harry, too, has done nothing to *earn* his
celebrity status at this point. He has simply survived a Killing Curse
through no will or effort of his own. It's like being famous for being
a sextuplet.)

At any rate, you think that Dumbledore should reprimand Snape. I don't
(and not just because I don't think his actions in that first lesson
are all that horrible). I think that DD either doesn't know or, more
likely, approves of Snape's teaching methods for reasons of his own,
one of which is that his plan to defeat Voldemort (which probably
includes Harry's self-sacrifice from the beginning) would be a
complete disaster if Harry developed an inflated ego. (And Snape,
though he's not privy to all of DD's plans, also knows that arrogance
in an enemy of Voldemort can be a fatal flaw. He's seen what happened
to that arrogant berk, James Potter, and if his protecting Harry is to
be of any use, he doesn't want an overly confident Harry prematurely
confronting Voldemort. In fact, he does his best to keep Harry away
from that third-floor corridor.)

But as I see it, Snape's motivation in publicly revealing to
Slytherins and Gryffindors alike that Harry is neither a prodigy nor a
powerful Dark Wizard in the making--which we can't, in any case
determine with any degree of certainty because we're not inside
Snape's head--is less important *to the story* than the *consequences*
of that first lesson to Harry and to Dumbledore's plans for Harry. In
theory, nothing happens in a novel without somehow moving the plot
forward, and this incident has consequences other than making a cozy
and mutually affectionate relationship between Snape and Harry even
more impossible than it already was.

What does it do? It establishes once and for all that Harry isn't a
powerful Dark Wizard who destroyed Voldemort through some act of his
own, which keeps the Slytherins from wanting to befriend him for the
wrong reason (cf. Draco before he insults Ron and ruins his own
chances). It gains Harry the sympathy of his fellow Gryffindors rather
than their mindless fan worship (in contrast to Colin Creevey in CoS).
It cements the initial preconceptions about Snape and Slytherin that
are already brewing in Harry's brain and the association of Slytherin
already indicated by his dream of Snape with Voldemort. It reinforces
Snape's view of Harry as just like his father, cheeky and arrogant and
mediocre. (The incident in flying class that leads to Harry's becoming
the youngest Seeker ever probably further reinforces that
misconception still further.) But it also enables Harry to pursue his
own friendships and interests without a gaggle of fans following him
around. (We see how annoying and inconvenient those fans can be with
Viktor Krum in GoF.)

Snape probably intended to sound Harry out, to discover the extent of
his knowledge of potions (Has he read the books? Has he inherited his
mother's aptitude?) and at the same time discover to what extent he's
inherited his father's arrogant, trouble-making personality. And, no
doubt, Harry's resemblance to James and an unconscious desire to see
James in him, distorts Snape's response. But Snape's *intentions* are
irrelevant to Harry and Harry's story and, in consequence, they are
never revealed to us. What matters is what happens as a result of that
mutual misunderstanding. We know from "The Prince's Tale" what Snape
thinks of Harry. We know what Harry thinks of Snape throughout the
books. From this bad beginning, we get, first, Harry's suspicion that
Snape is after the Sorcerer's Stone and then that he wants it for
Voldemort rather than himself. And not even the knowledge that Snape
tried to prevent Quirrell from killing him can overcome Harry's
ingrained view that Snape is evil, his sense that Snape hates him
(which may or may not be an exagferation--I think profound dislike is
more accurate), or the association in Harry's mind between Snape and
Voldemort. And, IMO, it doesn't help at all the Dumbledore attributes
Snape's saving his life solely to a wish to repay that unwanted debt
to the much-hated James, whom Harry at this point idealizes.

It's all essential to events that will unfold throughout all seven
books and to the final unveiling of Snape's true motivation and
character in book seven. And not one bit of it is, IMO, intentional on
Snape's part beyond the revelation to himself, to Harry, and to the
class as a whole of Harry's worthiness or unworthiness in terms of his
celebrity status.

Carol, who thinks that viewing particular incidents in terms of theme
and plot can be just as productive as viewing them solely from the
standpoint of character analysis, fascinating though that analysis can
be with regard to Snape




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 21:35:17 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 21:35:17 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmkrho+hdnh@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmkuql+7ldt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185697


> Magpie:
<snip> I thought his hesitation about whether or not Lily could be a
Slytherin was a small boy knowing it was a problem but hoping it
didn't apply to Lily. <snip>

Carol responds:
But he didn't hesitate about whether Lily could be a Slytherin. His
saying to her on the Hogwarts Express that she'd better be in
Slytherin (where he hopes and expects to be Sorted) is what starts the
incident with James and Sirius. No hesitation at all. He mistakenly
believes that she can be Sorted there. After all, he also mistakenly
believes that it's the House for "brains" (which suggests that he's
never heard of Ravenclaw).

Carol, who agrees that we can't know what he was taught but sees no
evidence that his clear prejudice against Muggles extends to
Muggleborns at this early point in his life




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Feb  7 21:52:49 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 21:52:49 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmkuql+7ldt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmkvrh+3qhg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185698

> > Magpie:
> <snip> I thought his hesitation about whether or not Lily could be a
> Slytherin was a small boy knowing it was a problem but hoping it
> didn't apply to Lily. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> But he didn't hesitate about whether Lily could be a Slytherin. His
> saying to her on the Hogwarts Express that she'd better be in
> Slytherin (where he hopes and expects to be Sorted) is what starts the
> incident with James and Sirius. No hesitation at all. He mistakenly
> believes that she can be Sorted there. After all, he also mistakenly
> believes that it's the House for "brains" (which suggests that he's
> never heard of Ravenclaw).

Magpie:
I don't have the book with me, but I was referring to the moment when 
she first asks him about it. By the time he's on the train he's 
convinced himself she can be Sorted into Slytherin but I seem to 
remember a pause in the original conversation putting a spotlight on 
Snape having a moment of hesitation before deciding that of course his 
friend could get Sorted there with him--she's awesome.
 
Like I said, I don't have the passage in front of me but I have a 
strong memory of thinking that scene was already foreshadowing the 
tragedy of Snape's life. I thought he had already been exposed to the 
idea, he just couldn't fully understand the implications yet, 
especially only knowing one Muggleborn whom he loves. He ignored or 
couldn't understand the danger of Slytherin values yet. 

-m




From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 22:44:01 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 22:44:01 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmj92h+cq6i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gml2rh+6csc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185699

> Montavilla47:
> No.  I'm inferring it from the way that we're told (it's almost the 
> first thing we know about Lily) that she was the star in her
> parent's eyes, and that she was very popular both in school and 
> throughout the Wizarding world.  Adding to that her upset at 
> Snape costing her cool points with her friends and it seems to 
> me that popularity was important to Lily.
> 
> JMO.
>
jkoney:
We find out that Lilly was a star in her parents eyes from Petunia. 
Someone we find out was very jealous of Lilly and her abilities. 
After she found out she couldn't attend the school, it seems she went 
to bitterness and anger about the situation.

Being popular could just mean that she was friendly, helpful, etc. 
Not that she was trying to get people to worship her.

As for "cool points" with her friends, it sounded as if she was 
making excuses for Snape because she was his friend and didn't want 
others to think badly of him. She knew him (or at least she thought 
she did) and thought he was a good person. That's why she was upset 
that he was hanging around with people who were junior death eaters 
in training. She didn't want him drawn into that.
jmo
jkoney




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 23:16:56 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 23:16:56 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmkvrh+3qhg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gml4p8+kdff@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185700

Magpie earlier:
> > <snip> I thought his hesitation about whether or not Lily could be
a Slytherin was a small boy knowing it was a problem but hoping it
didn't apply to Lily. <snip>
> > 
> > Carol responds:
> > But he didn't hesitate about whether Lily could be a Slytherin.
His saying to her on the Hogwarts Express that she'd better be in
Slytherin (where he hopes and expects to be Sorted) is what starts the
incident with James and Sirius. No hesitation at all. He mistakenly
believes that she can be Sorted there. After all, he also mistakenly
believes that it's the House for "brains" (which suggests that he's
never heard of Ravenclaw).
> 
> Magpie:
> I don't have the book with me, but I was referring to the moment
when she first asks him about it. By the time he's on the train he's
convinced himself she can be Sorted into Slytherin but I seem to 
remember a pause in the original conversation putting a spotlight on 
Snape having a moment of hesitation before deciding that of course his
friend could get Sorted there with him--she's awesome.
>  
> Like I said, I don't have the passage in front of me but I have a
strong memory of thinking that scene was already foreshadowing the 
tragedy of Snape's life. I thought he had already been exposed to the
idea, he just couldn't fully understand the implications yet,
especially only knowing one Muggleborn whom he loves. He ignored or
couldn't understand the danger of Slytherin values yet. 

Carol responds:

Slytherin isn't mentioned in the original conversation. I do have my
books with me, so I'll quote.

The first conversation about Hogwarts, the only one that involves
hesitation, has nothing to do with Houses. The kids are sitting by the
riverbank, discussing magic outside school. Lily says that Petunia has
told her there isn't any Hogwarts and that Severus is lying to her.

Severus answers, "It's real for us. Not for her. But we'll get the
letter, you and me?"

Lily asks, "Really," and little Severus, in his strange clothes,
suddenly "[strikes] an oddly impressive figure sprawled in front of
her, brimful of confidence in his destiny." 

"Definitely," he answers. 

She asks whether the letter will really come by owl (as he has
apparently already told her) and he explains matter-of-factly that it
normally comes that way, but you're Muggle-born, so someone from the
school will have to come and explain to your parents."

Whether Severus's mother has explained all this to him or he has
figured some of it out for himself is unclear, but there's no
indication of prejudice here that I can see, only a commonsense
explanation by a more knowledgeable friend to a novice.

This is the context in which Lily asks her question, "Does it make any
difference being a Muggle-born?"

Exactly what she means is unclear. Severus hesitates, taking time to
look over her face and hair with his eager eyes before answering, "No.
It doesn't make any difference."

Does he fully understand her question? (I don't.) Is he lying to her
for the first time? There's no indication of the behavior that JKR
usually associates with lying. 

Lily relaxes and says "Good." the narrator says that it's clear she
had been worrying--about what is not clear. Certainly not about House
prejudice, a subject that has not come up.

Severus reassures her with, "You've got loads of magic. I saw that.
All the time I was watching you."

His words suggest that she's worried about her own
performance--whether she'll do as well in school as the children who
are more familiar with the WW, kids like Sev who have at least one
Wizarding parent and know about Hogwarts and owls and wands and the
Ministry of Magic. She's not asking whether she'll be liked or how
she'll be regarded. The question is about school and, apparently,
whether a Muggle-born like herself can compete with the other kids.

The conversation shifts to other subjects like his family and Azkaban
and Dementors, at which point it's interrupted by Petunia, who
accidentally reveals that she's been spying on Lily and "that awful
boy," as she later remembers him.

The scene shifts to the two families (if Severus and his mother count
as a family; his Muggle father isn't there even though the Muggle
Evanses are). A few minutes later, Severus, who has changed to his
school robes for obvious reasons, sits down next to a crying Lily, who
has been fighting with "Tuney." He starts to say, "She's only a
Muggle" but catches himself and expresses his excitement that they're
off to Hogwarts. And then, "encourage that she had brightened a
little," he says "You'd better be in Slytherin."

Lily's response, "Slytherin?" makes it crystal clear that the subject
of Houses has not been mentioned before.

At that point, James, who has shown no interest in either of them
until that point, speaks up, making his contempt for Severus's chosen
House crystal clear. Lily, however, still has no idea what it's all about.

James raises his imaginary sword (which I take to be thw Sword of
Gryffindor--YMMV--and echoes the Sorting Hat's words (which he must
have heard from his father) about "Gryffindor, where dwell the brave
at heart!"

Severus, who has clearly been taught a different view of the Houses,
makes a "small disparaging noise" and answers James's "You got a
problem with tha?" with "Not if you'd rather be brawny than
brainy"--his idea of the Houses in a nutshell (with Ravenclaw and
Hufflepuff out of the picture for whatever reason). 

James and Sirius nicely illustrate his view of Gryffindor by acting
like little bullies, and Lily looks at them with dislike, telling
Severus that they should find another compartment, at which point
James trips Severus and Sirius (IMO) spontaneously invents the snide
epithet "Snivellus."

There is no question in Severus's mind either that he belongs in
Slytherin, which he has evidently been taught is the House of brains,
antithesis of Gryffindor, the House of brawn, or that Lily, too,
belongs there. 

The reader knows that he's mistaken, that Lily can't and won't be
Sorted there and that Ravenclaw, not Slytherin, is the House of
brains. Slytherin, whatever else it my be, is not a healthy place for
this eager, bright, knowledgeable little boy, and Sorting will
ultimately divide the two friends, setting them on paths that, as you
say, will lead to tragedy.

Carol, resting her case that Severus did *not* hesitate to expect
Lily, a Muggle-born, to be Sorted into Slytherin along with himself,
and that, to do so, he could not have known that Slytherin did not
accept Muggle-borns




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  8 00:32:02 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 00:32:02 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gml4p8+kdff@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gml962+usep@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185701

Carol:

> This is the context in which Lily asks her question, "Does it make 
any
> difference being a Muggle-born?"
> 
> Exactly what she means is unclear. Severus hesitates, taking time to
> look over her face and hair with his eager eyes before 
answering, "No.
> It doesn't make any difference."

Magpie:
Ah! That's the moment I meant. She asks if it makes a difference and 
he hesitates. I think he does understand--or think he does- what she 
means and he hesitates--not because he's outright lying. It reads to 
me like he's making a declaration about specifically her after 
eagerly gazing at her hair and face.

A scene that's just showing little Snape is totally ignorant of this 
stuff I'd expect would underline that ignorance with Snape 
saying, "Why would it matter?" Or maybe asking, puzzled, "What do you 
mean?" It's a clear, efficient way to show Snape as innocent before 
he was corrupted. This way reads as Snape declaring at that moment 
his position on the Muggleborn issue: It doesn't make any difference 
to him at that moment. Lily is just as good as any other Wizard. A 
declaration rather than the innocent puzzlement or carelessness of 
someone for whom the question has less meaning. And I think both of 
them are talking about something bigger than just academics.

Snape's view of Slytherin is probably somewhat skewed--as is James' 
view of Gryffindor, but I think they both learned from their parents, 
who were members of those houses. If Snape was just that confused, I 
think the Hat would have put him in Ravenclaw. The Hat wasn't wrong 
where it put him. I could believe his mother had brought in the good 
family bloodline in some way.

> Carol, resting her case that Severus did *not* hesitate to expect
> Lily, a Muggle-born, to be Sorted into Slytherin along with himself,
> and that, to do so, he could not have known that Slytherin did not
> accept Muggle-borns

Magpie:
Conceding that it wasn't whether or not Slytherin accepted 
Muggleborns about which hesitated, but still thinking the hesitation 
about the more straightforward question of whether it made a 
difference indicated there was already a conflict between things he 
had heard and his friendship with Lily. It reads to me as young Snape 
making a declaration of his feelings about Lily, whatever her 
background.

-m




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 00:45:36 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 00:45:36 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmksqu+kupp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gml9vg+h8k6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185702

> Montavilla47:
> I'm not talking about any accident.  (Or did you mean *incident*?)

Alla:

LOL, sorry, yes of course, I meant incident.

Montavilla47:
> I'm talking about the memory where Lily scolds Snape for being
> friends with people who did... something unspecified to her 
> friend Mary.
> 
> I think you're right that she's concerned about her friend--but I 
> think that she's also concerned that Snape's association with 
> Slytherin bad boys is costing her points with her friends.  The reason
> I think this is because she says that she's been making excuses to
> those friends for him for years.  She sounds fed up about that.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Ah, I see where we differ and yes, we are talking about the same 
situation. I do not associate friends warning you about the guy 
necessarily with them saying that if you do not stop associating with 
him, you will not be our friend anymore, or less cool friend or 
something.

For example, if my friends are telling me that the guy I am seeing is 
bad for me, that does not translate into them telling me that if I do 
not stop seeing him pronto, they will not be my friends anymore. They 
are just concerned about me.

Yes, Lily was a popular girl, but I just do not see that she cared much 
about her popularity. Of course it could be that she did, I just do not 
see it.

Like with Ginny, we also see that she is popular, but do we see that 
she cares about popularity per se?

She wants her brother to leave her alone when she is dating (as any 
younger sister IMO would feel), she likes Quidditch, but I do not 
remember her caring about being popular.

JMO,

Alla





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 02:07:44 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 02:07:44 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gml962+usep@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmlepg+f8al@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185703

> Magpie:
> Conceding that it wasn't whether or not Slytherin accepted 
> Muggleborns about which hesitated, but still thinking the hesitation 
> about the more straightforward question of whether it made a 
> difference indicated there was already a conflict between things he 
> had heard and his friendship with Lily. It reads to me as young Snape 
> making a declaration of his feelings about Lily, whatever her 
> background.

Montavilla47:
At the risk of stirring up what is currently at rest, there's a couple
points I'd like to make.

One is, although JKR probably didn't think much about it, Snape's
family likely contained more than just a mother and father.  Even
if his mother was the most tolerant, Muggle-loving person in the 
world, he could easily pick up the prejudice from his grandparents,
cousins, uncles or aunts.

The second is that anti-Muggle prejudice (which Snape clearly
has) is pervasive throughout the Wizarding world.  Hagrid and 
McGonagall both use "Muggle" as a derogatory term.  So, his 
anti-Muggle prejudice is not out of line with the majority of 
wizards and doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to be
anti-Muggleborn as well.

But I think my main problem with the whole Snape backstory
is the "rules" of Wizarding racism are as confusing as the 
rules of the Elder Wand.  Or the rules of Dark Magic.  None 
of it is very well explained, and all of it seems created solely
to make Snape as bad as possible.  Hehe.







From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 03:12:22 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 03:12:22 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gml9vg+h8k6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmliim+fck3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185704

> Montavilla47:
> > I'm talking about the memory where Lily scolds Snape for being
> > friends with people who did... something unspecified to her 
> > friend Mary.
> > 
> > I think you're right that she's concerned about her friend--but I 
> > think that she's also concerned that Snape's association with 
> > Slytherin bad boys is costing her points with her friends.  The reason
> > I think this is because she says that she's been making excuses to
> > those friends for him for years.  She sounds fed up about that.
> <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Ah, I see where we differ and yes, we are talking about the same 
> situation. I do not associate friends warning you about the guy 
> necessarily with them saying that if you do not stop associating with 
> him, you will not be our friend anymore, or less cool friend or 
> something.

Montavilla47:
Darn you, Alla.  You made me go back and reread that chapter!

And I found out that I was misremembering.  It's later--when
Snape is trying to apologize to Lily that she complains about 
having to make excuses.  So, let me apologize for getting that
wrong.

They are outside the Griffyindor dorms.  This is what Lily says
(p. 675-676, DH, AM. Ed.):  

"I only came out because Mary told me you were threatening to 
sleep here."

(Snape:) "I was.  I would have done.  I never meant to call you 
Mudblood, it just--"

"Slipped out?" There was no pity in Lily's voice.  "It's too late.
I've made excuses for you for years.  None of my friends can
understand why I even talk to you."

Interrupting here.  She doesn't say that they've been warning
her.  She says that she's made excuses.  While one can make
excuses for someone who is bad for you (for example, abused
people might make excuses for their abusive spouses), it's more
likely that one would "make excuses" for someone who is 
socially inappropriate.  Especially since we see that Lily feels
not at all threatened by Snape as a person.  

Also, "None of my friends can understand why I even talk to
you." 

That's a sentiment that only applies when talking about social
status.  People who your friends shouldn't talk to are obviously
socially beneath them.  If Snape's friends were socially superior
(or "cool"), then Lily's friends wouldn't be wondering why she
would talk to him.  They might not like him.  They might despise
him.  But they wouldn't need to ask why she's talking to him.

Lily continues:  "You and your precious little Death Eater friends
--you see, you don't even deny it!  You don't even deny that's 
what you're all aiming to be!  You can't wait to join You-Know-
Who, can you?"

Reading this again, I'm struck by how contemptuously Lily
speaks about the Death Eaters here.  "Precious little
Death Eaters" isn't something I'd expect someone to say
about a terrorist group.  (I'm trying to imagine a context
in which a girl might tell her friend, "You and your precious
Al-Quaida!"  Or "You and your precious Hitler youth!") 

Maybe I'm looking at this through too strict an American
lens?  Because the way I read her tone here, the "precious
Death Eaters" sound like a joke at the school.  A group that's
a joke?  That's an unpopular group.


Alla:
> Like with Ginny, we also see that she is popular, but do we see that 
> she cares about popularity per se?

Montavilla47:
Well, in GoF, she cares enough to attend the Yule Ball that she agrees
to go with Neville and then gets upset when Ron laughs.  So, she 
obviously cares that Neville is seen as socially undesirable.  And she
defends herself by pointing out that she wouldn't be able to attend
the dance otherwise (making it clear that she's not "interested" in 
socially awkward Neville).

And she dates two other boys without seeming to be that interested
in them (given that she breaks up with them for minor faults).   One 
reason to date is to increase your social status.  

So, I wouldn't say there's *no* indication that Ginny cares about 
her popularity.






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 03:31:01 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 03:31:01 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmliim+fck3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmljll+u95s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185705

> Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
 If Snape's friends were socially superior
> (or "cool"), then Lily's friends wouldn't be wondering why she
> would talk to him.  They might not like him.  They might despise
> him.  But they wouldn't need to ask why she's talking to him.

Alla:

I just sent you a reply offlist, since I wanted to make personal 
analogy, but wanted to make a different point here.

Say you are right, I mean I disagree, but for the sake of the 
argument say you are right and Lily is concerned about her coolness 
with the friends and how her friendship with Snape will affect her 
coolness.

To me, if it is true (and please, please let me stress I am not 
**conceeding** that it is), the fact that Lily maintained said 
friendship despite her wanting to be friends with her other friends 
for years, speaks tons in Lily's favour. That she stood up to peer 
pressure, etc.




Montavilla47: 
> Lily continues:  "You and your precious little Death Eater friends
> --you see, you don't even deny it!  You don't even deny that's 
> what you're all aiming to be!  You can't wait to join You-Know-
> Who, can you?"
> 
> Reading this again, I'm struck by how contemptuously Lily
> speaks about the Death Eaters here.  "Precious little
> Death Eaters" isn't something I'd expect someone to say
> about a terrorist group.  (I'm trying to imagine a context
> in which a girl might tell her friend, "You and your precious
> Al-Quaida!"  Or "You and your precious Hitler youth!") 
> 
> Maybe I'm looking at this through too strict an American
> lens?  Because the way I read her tone here, the "precious
> Death Eaters" sound like a joke at the school.  A group that's
> a joke?  That's an unpopular group.

Alla:

Huh? You would prefer her to talk about Death Eaters as popular 
group? Seriously I do not understand your point. Actually I found her 
tone to be very appropriate here. Sort of the same thing as fear of 
the name increases fear of the person, if that makes sense?

She does speak with contempt, but to me it feels that it should be 
addressed with contempt and maybe people will not be as scared to 
fight them. IMO of course.
 
> 
> Alla:
> > Like with Ginny, we also see that she is popular, but do we see 
that 
> > she cares about popularity per se?
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Well, in GoF, she cares enough to attend the Yule Ball that she 
agrees
> to go with Neville and then gets upset when Ron laughs.  So, she 
> obviously cares that Neville is seen as socially undesirable.  And 
she
> defends herself by pointing out that she wouldn't be able to attend
> the dance otherwise (making it clear that she's not "interested" in 
> socially awkward Neville).

Alla:

I have to reread the moment when she defends herself, but I mean, she 
**went** with socially undesirable Neville, doesn't it mean that she 
could assume that she could be ridiculed and still went?

Montavilla47:
> And she dates two other boys without seeming to be that interested
> in them (given that she breaks up with them for minor faults).   
One 
> reason to date is to increase your social status.  

Alla:

Or just to have fun without any thought about status?

Montavilla47:
> So, I wouldn't say there's *no* indication that Ginny cares about 
> her popularity.

Alla:

Again, I disagree, but I understand what you are saying.

JMO,

Alla





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  8 04:09:22 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 04:09:22 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmljll+u95s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmllti+17lk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185706

> Alla:

> Say you are right, I mean I disagree, but for the sake of the 
> argument say you are right and Lily is concerned about her coolness 
> with the friends and how her friendship with Snape will affect her 
> coolness.
> 
> To me, if it is true (and please, please let me stress I am not 
> **conceeding** that it is), the fact that Lily maintained said 
> friendship despite her wanting to be friends with her other friends 
> for years, speaks tons in Lily's favour. That she stood up to peer 
> pressure, etc.

Magpie:
I get the feeling from the series that JKR's views on "wanting to be 
popular" are that people who care enough to not be nice to someone 
because they aren't cool, are not good guys. Good guys can have 
moments of wishing they were "with cooler people" like Harry does 
when he's with Luna and Neville, because they look particularly odd 
at that point too. But she would also have Harry publically claim 
both of them as friends to make a statement with it.

I would think JKR would say neither Ginny or Harry care about being 
popular. They'll be friends with Luna, look down on the Slug Club, 
stand up for Neville. They're popular because they are cool naturally 
and part of their coolness is that they don't focus on their social 
status that way. The difference between them and Romilda is obvious.

I took Lily's "my friends don't understand why even talk to you" to 
refer to Snape being awful, to hanging around with DE bullies (and 
being one of them). From what we see it seems like Slytherin has its 
own separate social circle anyway, but I took Lily to be putting them 
down for their violent political views and the fact that they want to 
join Voldemort. A guy who's totally anti-Muggleborn. Snape's friends 
also have a rep for being anti-Muggleborn. She's accusing him of 
freely using or hearing terms like Mudblood when he's not with her.

No wonder her friends wonder she even speaks to him--she's Muggleborn 
herself! I do think there's probably some element of Snape being a 
creep, ugly, socially awkward etc. in her friends' comments, but 
Lily's own comments (saying that she's been making excuses for him 
and she doesn't know why she does anymore) are about him becoming a 
nasty DE supporter. If it was just a case of Snape being awkward she 
would have continued to defend him and probably not tell him she was 
having to do it.

At least that was what I thought JKR was trying to put across with 
Lily (and Harry and Ginny).

-m




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 04:50:46 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 04:50:46 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmljll+u95s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmlob6+ng2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185707

> > Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
>  If Snape's friends were socially superior
> > (or "cool"), then Lily's friends wouldn't be wondering why she
> > would talk to him.  They might not like him.  They might despise
> > him.  But they wouldn't need to ask why she's talking to him.
> 
> Alla:
> Say you are right, I mean I disagree, but for the sake of the 
> argument say you are right and Lily is concerned about her coolness 
> with the friends and how her friendship with Snape will affect her 
> coolness.
> 
> To me, if it is true (and please, please let me stress I am not 
> **conceeding** that it is), the fact that Lily maintained said 
> friendship despite her wanting to be friends with her other friends 
> for years, speaks tons in Lily's favour. That she stood up to peer 
> pressure, etc.

Montavilla47:
Yes.  I agree that it does speak in Lily's favor that she stays 
friends with Snape despite peer pressure.  

I also don't think that being socially conscious makes a 
person bad, so if that seemed implied, than I should have
been clearer.

The way I see it, Lily would need to be socially conscious.  She's
entering a foreign culture and that's going to be difficult no 
matter who you are.  If you don't make an effort to fit in, then
you are end up sitting at the geek table.  (Not that Hogwarts
has a geek table, but you get the drift....)

> Montavilla47: 
> > Lily continues:  "You and your precious little Death Eater friends
> > --you see, you don't even deny it!  You don't even deny that's 
> > what you're all aiming to be!  You can't wait to join You-Know-
> > Who, can you?"
> > 
> > Reading this again, I'm struck by how contemptuously Lily
> > speaks about the Death Eaters here.  "Precious little
> > Death Eaters" isn't something I'd expect someone to say
> > about a terrorist group.  (I'm trying to imagine a context
> > in which a girl might tell her friend, "You and your precious
> > Al-Quaida!"  Or "You and your precious Hitler youth!") 
> > 
> > Maybe I'm looking at this through too strict an American
> > lens?  Because the way I read her tone here, the "precious
> > Death Eaters" sound like a joke at the school.  A group that's
> > a joke?  That's an unpopular group.
> 
> Alla:
> Huh? You would prefer her to talk about Death Eaters as popular 
> group? Seriously I do not understand your point. Actually I found her 
> tone to be very appropriate here. Sort of the same thing as fear of 
> the name increases fear of the person, if that makes sense?

Montavilla47:
No, I don't prefer her to speak about it either way.  I'm just making
an observation about something I find really confusing.  I keep trying
to figure out what the Future Death Eaters were and how they were 
viewed.  

Alla:
> She does speak with contempt, but to me it feels that it should be 
> addressed with contempt and maybe people will not be as scared to 
> fight them. IMO of course.

Montavilla47:
Right.  But it they are actually scary and she thinks Snape is going 
to join them, then they *are* scary.  I'm sure this is supposed to 
show how incredibly brave Lily is.  But it makes the Death Eaters
seem like--well, roughly on a par with the Marauders in terms of 
a threat.

But maybe I'm over thinking it.  After all, it's not a lot different
than Fred and George's U-No-Poo.  And I'm sure that at Hogwarts,
the students were sheltered from the worst of the war.


> Alla:
> 
> I have to reread the moment when she defends herself, but I mean, she 
> **went** with socially undesirable Neville, doesn't it mean that she 
> could assume that she could be ridiculed and still went?

Montavilla47:
Depends.  She's ridiculed by Ron, her brother and older student.  But
she might look a lot better to the girls in her own year, who don't get
to go to the dance at all.

> Montavilla47:
> > And she dates two other boys without seeming to be that interested
> > in them (given that she breaks up with them for minor faults).   
> One 
> > reason to date is to increase your social status.  
> 
> Alla:
> Or just to have fun without any thought about status?

Montavilla47:
But she doesn't seem to have much fun.  And she admits at 
the end of HBP that she more or less waiting around until
Harry noticed her.

> Montavilla47:
> > So, I wouldn't say there's *no* indication that Ginny cares about 
> > her popularity.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Again, I disagree, but I understand what you are saying.
> 
Montavilla47:
That's all I can ask!




From catlady at wicca.net  Sun Feb  8 04:54:13 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 04:54:13 -0000
Subject: Slytherin House / MALcolm BADdock / Eileen / Sorting Lily
Message-ID: <gmlohl+10g13@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185708

a_svirn wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185639>:

<< Which, in turn, would mean that Slytherin House is a very bad
proposition. Dumbledore is basically saying, "We wrote you off too
early, Severus. You are not all that rotten we shouldn't have lumped
you with all the other baddies after all". Whether Rowling shares his
opinion on both Slytherin and Severus is debatable; however if
Dumbledore himself felt this way, the question is why on earth did he
tolerate the existence of this house of baddies much less expose
students in his care to its corrupting influence. >>

I don't think Dumbledore had the authority to abolish one of the four
Houses. I don't think even the Board of Governors had the authority to
abolish one of the four Houses - the Founders probably left the school
a charter that specified that the original Houses must remain, that
the Castle could be added to but not torn down, and other rules for
continuing to control the school long after they died. They probably
put secret magic traps to enforce those rules even if laws and
government amended the school charter.

Pip!Squeak wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185647>:

<< In support of this: look at his name. MALcolm BADdock. Given JKR's
love of names that reveal something about a character, I'd guess that
young Mal is a bad 'un. {g} >>

Pip! You're back! <hugs> Strangely enough, considering that I didn't
take Remus Lupin's name as meaning that his parents wanted him to
become a werewolf, I took MAL BAD as indicating that parents were
Slytherins whose ambition for their child was for him to be a bad 'un.

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185684>:

<< All we see is her cowering when Tobias screams at her (she must be
afraid of being arrested if she uses magic against him or she wouldn't
cower like that). >>

Maybe Eileen, like Merope, was unable to make her magic work while she
was feeling frightened and humiliated by domestic abuse from Eileen's
husband and Merope's father.

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185697>:

<< But he didn't hesitate about whether Lily could be a Slytherin. His
saying to her on the Hogwarts Express that she'd better be in
Slytherin (where he hopes and expects to be Sorted) is what starts the
incident with James and Sirius. >>

I think they always Sort in alphabetical order, so of the kids in that
compartment, Sirius Black would have been Sorted first, then Lily
Evans, then James Potter, and last Severus Snape.

So what did Lily say to the Sorting Hat? 
Lily: I hope I'm in Slytherin with Sev.
Hat:  They would be furious at me for putting a Muggleborn into their
House. They call Muggleborns 'Mudbloods'. You would be happier in
Gryffindor.
Lily: I don't want to be in the same House with that bully Sirius Black!

How was the Hat able to talk her into Gryffindor?





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 14:09:32 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 14:09:32 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmlob6+ng2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmmp2s+2612@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185709

Alla:
> She does speak with contempt, but to me it feels that it should be
> addressed with contempt and maybe people will not be as scared to
> fight them. IMO of course.

Montavilla47:
Right. But it they are actually scary and she thinks Snape is going
to join them, then they *are* scary. I'm sure this is supposed to
show how incredibly brave Lily is. But it makes the Death Eaters
seem like--well, roughly on a par with the Marauders in terms of
a threat.

But maybe I'm over thinking it. After all, it's not a lot different
than Fred and George's U-No-Poo. And I'm sure that at Hogwarts,
the students were sheltered from the worst of the war.


Alla:

I took it exactly as you said - to show how brave Lily is, I read it 
that contempt was here to deliberately dwonplay their danger, if that 
makes sense.

But now I just realized something, and thank you for that, I 
speculated for quite some time that Snape may have joined DE while at 
school. But believe it or not, I never took this quote as additional 
hint for that speculation. I think I am now. "You and your previous 
DE" to me can nicely support that Snape indeed became a part of them 
literally.


> Alla:
>
> I have to reread the moment when she defends herself, but I mean, 
she
> **went** with socially undesirable Neville, doesn't it mean that she
> could assume that she could be ridiculed and still went?

Montavilla47:
Depends. She's ridiculed by Ron, her brother and older student. But
she might look a lot better to the girls in her own year, who don't 
get
to go to the dance at all.

Alla:

An. I see. 




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb  8 17:57:43 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 8 Feb 2009 17:57:43 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/8/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1234115863.11.26688.m50@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185710

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday February 8, 2009
1:00 pm - 1:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. 

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK


All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2009 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20090208/db85f208/attachment.html>

From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 19:04:29 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 19:04:29 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gml962+usep@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmnabt+mu1s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185711

Carol earlier:
> 
> > This is the context in which Lily asks her question, "Does it make
any difference being a Muggle-born?"
> > 
> > Exactly what she means is unclear. Severus hesitates, taking time
to look over her face and hair with his eager eyes before answering,
"No. It doesn't make any difference."
> 
> Magpie:
> Ah! That's the moment I meant. She asks if it makes a difference and
he hesitates. I think he does understand--or think he does- what she
means and he hesitates--not because he's outright lying. It reads to
me like he's making a declaration about specifically her after eagerly
gazing at her hair and face.

Carol responds:
Well, yes, but what he understands may be different from what you
understand. "You have loads of magic" doesn't make much sense as an
answer to "Will I be discriminated against?" which, in any case, is an
odd question for Lily, whose probably never experienced prejudice in
her life (as didtinct from sisterly jealousy).

Magpie: 
> A scene that's just showing little Snape is totally ignorant of this
stuff I'd expect would underline that ignorance with Snape saying,
"Why would it matter?" Or maybe asking, puzzled, "What do you mean?"
It's a clear, efficient way to show Snape as innocent before he was
corrupted. <snip>


Carol:
Maybe, *if* she's talking about anti-Muggle-born discrimination. But I
don't think she is. All they've been talking about is getting a letter
from Hogwarts. Severus tells her that *they'll* get one (because
they're magical). Petunia won't (because she's a Muggle). Lily asks if
the letter will really be delivered by owl, which causes Severus to
realize that maybe hers won't be because her parents are Muggles and
will need someone to explain what Hogwarts is and what Lily will learn
there. and that's the whole context of her question.

I think it's completely clear from the conversation, including his
remarks about only Wizards who do something a whole lot worse than
underage magic being sent to Azkaban, that he's knowlegeable but
uncorrupted.

Magpie: 
> Snape's view of Slytherin is probably somewhat skewed--as is James'
view of Gryffindor, but I think they both learned from their parents,
who were members of those houses. If Snape was just that confused, I 
think the Hat would have put him in Ravenclaw. The Hat wasn't wrong 
where it put him. I could believe his mother had brought in the good 
family bloodline in some way.

Carol responds:
I think that the hat knows that his mother was a Slytherin (I agree
that she had the approved Blood-line--obviously *the Half-Blood Prince
indicates that the others were Pure-Bloods) and that he wants and
expects to be Sorted there himself. It might have hesitated between
Ravenclaw and slytherin and gone with young Severus's wishes. It might
even have thought that this talented and ambitious little Half-Blood
will thrive in Slytherin (much the same thing that it tells Harry). 

As for his view of Slytherin being "probably" somewhat skewed, the
fact that he perceives it as the House of Brains and thinks that Lily
can be Sorted into it removes "probably" from the equation. He's
disappointed when she's sorted into Gryffindor, but he still wants to
be Sorted into his mother's House, just as James wants to continue
what is obviously the family tradition of being Sorted into
Gryffindor. The only one who starts to doubt his family tradition is
Sirius, and, if it weren't for his meeting and befriending James, he
would probably have been Sorted into Slytherin just like Regulus
(later) and Andromeda (earlier) and all the rest of his family. He
must have wanted to be placed in Gryffindor, where he knew James would
be placed. Lily must have been placed in Gryffindor *against* her
wishes since the Hat knew, as she didn't and Severus didn't, that she
could not be Sorted into Slytherin.
 
> > Carol, resting her case that Severus did *not* hesitate to expect
Lily, a Muggle-born, to be Sorted into Slytherin along with himself,
and that, to do so, he could not have known that Slytherin did not
accept Muggle-borns
> 
> Magpie:
> Conceding that it wasn't whether or not Slytherin accepted 
Muggleborns about which hesitated,

Carol:
Good!

Magpie:
> but still thinking the hesitation about the more straightforward
question of whether it made a difference indicated there was already a
conflict between things he had heard and his friendship with Lily. It
reads to me as young Snape making a declaration of his feelings about
Lily, whatever her background.

Carol responds:
But it isn't a straightforward question. The pronoun "it" has no
antecedent, nothing to refer to, certainly not prejudice or
discrimination, topics that have not come up in the conversation. Does
*what* make a difference? Or, rather, does being Muggle-born make a
difference *in what way* (other than having a representative of
Hogwarts come to the House to explain the school to her parents, which
is the context of her question).

You may think that it's a clearcut question because, in your view, it
*must* relate to prejudice. But prejudice and Houses have nothing to
do with the conversation. The question seems to relate to magical
ability. her question, "Does it make a difference being Muggle-born"
provides no context. What kind of difference? Does being a Muggle-born
make a difference in what? The way she'll be treated or perceived? If
that's what she means, why would Severus (not "Snape," for crying out
loud! He's nine or ten years old, and she calls him "Sev" or
"Severus") answer with, first, "No, it doesn't make any difference"
and then "You've got lots of magic"?

Here's the whole conversation, minus any commentary, the narrator's or
mine:

Severus: You're Muggle-born, so someone from the school will have to
come and explain to your parents.

Lily: Does it make any difference being a Muggle-born?

Severus: No. It doesn't make any difference.

Lily: Good.

Severus: You've got loads of magic. I saw that. All the time I was
watching you.

It seems to me that he's reassuring her that she's just as magical as
any kid with one or more magical parents. How she'll be perceived or
treated has nothing to do with the conversation. (JKR makes the same
point with Hermione: Being Muggle-born makes no difference *in magical
ability.* Slughorn makes the same discovery: Against his expectations,
Lily is just as talented at Potions, if not more so, than most of his
Pure-Blood or Half-Blood students--a bit of a surprise, perhaps, since
she could not have inherited the talent from her parents or been
taught Potions at home.)

I think that any other reading, especially considering that Severus
has said nothing about "blood" or Houses or prejudice, only that
Petunia won't get a letter and someone will have to explain to Lily's
Muggle parents about Hogwarts, is reading in implications that didn't
exist in the original conversation, in which Severus is clearly
innocent of any prejudice except the all-pervasive prejudice against
nonmagical Muggles, first illustrated for us by Hagrid in dealing with
Vernon Dursley (unless we count McGonagalls' remark about the Dursleys
being "the worst sort of Muggles," which, sad to say, indicates her
underestimation of the human capacity for evil). Dumbledore, as we
know, started off with the very same prejudice. 

But Lily's being a Witch, especially having "loads of magic," sets her
apart from her Muggle family. (Sidenote: I suspect that if little
Severus had Wizard or Witch playmates, he wouldn't have paid any
attention to Lily. But he's an only child. We see no evidence of, say,
Prince cousins as occasional playmates. When he's not with Lily, after
she breaks off their friendship, he has nothing better to do at home
than shoot down flies in his bedroom.)

If Lily were "only a Muggle" like Petunia, he wouldn't have spent
hours watching her. There would have been nothing to watch other than
a pretty little Muggle girl in a swing. But this little girl is
clearly different from her Muggle sister. She's magical, like him, and
he overcomes his shyness and social awkwardness to speak to her and,
eventually, to teach her all he knows about the WW, from underage
magic and the MoM to Hogwarts. But not once does he mention prejudice
against *Muggleborns* (as opposed to Muggles). He expects her to be
Sorted into Slytherin along with him. Clearly, he has no idea that
Slytherin doesn't accept Muggle-borns or it would be absurd to say
eaglerly "You'd better be Sorted into Slytherin" (Just as James, if
he'd been her friend, might have said, "You'd better be Sorted int
Gryffindor"). As for prejudice in the WW, Lily's first experience with
it is the prejudice of wannabe Gryffindor James against Slytherin, a
prejudice that is quickly passed on to his new friend, Sirius, who has
until that moment, as far as I can see, never once questioned his
family's Slytherin heritage. (BTW, I'm not sure that James has a
skewed perception of Gryffindor, but I think that he and Sirius both
have a skewed idea of what constitutes true courage and chivalry.)

To get back to the original point, if I were a student from a
nonmusical family with a scholarship to Juilliard and I asked a kid
whose mother had attended Juilliard, "Does it make any difference
having a nonmusical family?" I wouldn't necessarily be worried about
being discriminated against by the other students or the teachers. I'd
probably be more worried about my own ability to keep up and my lack
of training and experience in a family that didn't know B flat from a
flat tire.

Carol, wondering how we would read that question and answer if we had
first met Severus and Lily as children




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 19:43:33 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 19:43:33 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmmp2s+2612@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmncl5+sts3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185712

Alla <snip>:

> But now I just realized something, and thank you for that, I 
speculated for quite some time that Snape may have joined DE while at
school. But believe it or not, I never took this quote as additional 
hint for that speculation. I think I am now. "You and your previous
DE" to me can nicely support that Snape indeed became a part of them 
literally.
>
Carol responds:

"You and your precious little Death Eater friends" simply indicates
that his *friends* have either become or openly expressed a desire to
become Death Eaters. She doesn't like his associating with such people
and has had to defend him against it. But if he had actually joined
them at that point or expressed such a desire himself, she would
already have dropped him. All it took was for him to call her a
"Mudblood." If he'd shown her a Dark Mark, her reaction would have
been a lot worse than a snub. She'd have ended the relationship then
and there and possibly hexed him into the bargain.

She doesn't call *him* a Death Eater. She speaks of his Death Eater
friends and accuses him of wanting to join them, an accusation that he
doesn't deny.

BTW, I'm trying to think of a comparable accusation--"You and your
little Crip friends," maybe? At any rate, she doesn't like him
associating with people who are openly cruel and bigoted and enamored
of Dark Magic (whatever that is, exactly). If she'd known that he'd
invented Sectumsempra, assuming that he had done so at that time (and
I think that "for enemies" marks it as later, during sixth year),
she'd have broken off their friendship earlier, too.

Just as he at this point distinguishes her from other Muggle-borns,
she at this point distinguishes him from his "little Death Eater
friends." I imagine that the distinction ended once she'd permanently
broken off with him, and whether he had actually joined or not, he
became either a DE or a wannabe DE in her mind.

Nevertheless, not even Sirius Black, one of his worst enemies, knew
that Severus Snape had actually become a Death Eater, only that he ran
with a gang of them, including Avery, the now-dead Wilkes and Rosier,
and (oddly) "the Lestranges," defined as Bellatrix and her husband,
both of whom were evidently older than Severus. (Maybe it was really
Rabastan who was part of that gang.) Again oddly, Mulciber isn't
mentioned though he was surely one of the gang members ("gang" defined
as "group," not necessarily "gang" in the sense of a group of
antisocial lawbreakers).

Carol, now wondering if "gang" has the same connotation for British
readers as for Americans and whether MWPP are also referred to at some
point as a "gang"






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sun Feb  8 20:19:12 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 20:19:12 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmmp2s+2612@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmneo0+dldi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185713

 
> Alla:
> 
> I took it exactly as you said - to show how brave Lily is, I read 
it 
> that contempt was here to deliberately dwonplay their danger, if 
that 
> makes sense.
> 
> But now I just realized something, and thank you for that, I 
> speculated for quite some time that Snape may have joined DE while 
at 
> school. But believe it or not, I never took this quote as 
additional 
> hint for that speculation. I think I am now. "You and your previous 
> DE" to me can nicely support that Snape indeed became a part of 
them 
> literally.

Magpie:
Or else she's just calling him out on knowing their plans to join LV 
when they graduate. 

Carol responds:
Well, yes, but what he understands may be different from what you
understand. "You have loads of magic" doesn't make much sense as an
answer to "Will I be discriminated against?" which, in any case, is an
odd question for Lily, whose probably never experienced prejudice in
her life (as didtinct from sisterly jealousy).

Magpie:
It makes perfect sense as an answer to "Will I be discriminated 
against?" to me. It's the reason she will be okay. Lily wouldn't have 
needed to have experienced discrimination to wonder if her being a 
Muggleborn would make her an outsider. I don't think she'd call it 
discrimination but she'd have reason to wonder if her parents not 
being Wizards would make her different in peoples' eyes. She'd 
understand that for some kids this is the world they've lived in for 
generations and she's just gotten a random ticket.

Carol:
I think it's completely clear from the conversation, including his
remarks about only Wizards who do something a whole lot worse than
underage magic being sent to Azkaban, that he's knowlegeable but
uncorrupted.

Magpie:
Its his being knowlegeable that I'm getting from this. I just see 
this scene as Snape having already been exposed to the idea of 
Pureblood superiority and at this point completely dismissing it as 
at the very least not applying to Lily. At this point in his life the 
idea that Lily could be inferior because she's Muggleborn is an idea 
he completely rejects. That's what I'm reading in the scene, which 
just seems subtly different from your reading that Snape doesn't have 
to reject the idea that Lily could be inferior because it's never 
occurred to him. We both agree, I think, that this scene represents a 
Snape expressing exactly the opposite beliefs as he expresses in SWM 
by calling her a Mudblood.

Carol:
As for his view of Slytherin being "probably" somewhat skewed, the
fact that he perceives it as the House of Brains and thinks that Lily
can be Sorted into it removes "probably" from the equation. 

Magpie:
Yes, my "probably" was referring to things beyond that as well. He's 
never been to the school and the "Slytherin" in his head is 
completely imaginary and probably conforms to all his wishes. I think 
he does believe Lily can be Sorted there. I assume he's wrong on that 
score, given the Hat's song about how it's for those whose blood is 
Purest, though I can't be completely sure JKR would say it was 
impossible. I just don't think that Snape wanting to believe Lily 
could be Sorted there means that he can't have had any exposure to 
the bloodline connection. I think he could have already have been 
exposed to the idea of prejudice and just be naive.

Carol:
He must have wanted to be placed in Gryffindor, where he knew James 
would be placed. Lily must have been placed in Gryffindor *against* 
her wishes since the Hat knew, as she didn't and Severus didn't, that 
she could not be Sorted into Slytherin.

Magpie:
Not necessarily against her wishes, imo. Just because Snape was mad 
for Slytherin and said she'd better be Sorted there doesn't mean that 
Lily begged the Hat for it. She could have wanted to let the Hat Sort 
her where she belonged and just see where she ended up. That's what I 
would have done in that situation. Sirius, too, didn't necessarily 
have to get Gryffindor because he wanted to be with James. He could 
have just let the Hat decide the best place for him as well. The 
thing about the Hat is JKR says it's never wrong, so any desire 
anybody has only reflects their true nature to begin with. It's not 
like you get placed in the wrong House because you don't know 
yourself, it seems.

Carol:
Here's the whole conversation, minus any commentary, the narrator's or
mine:

Severus: You're Muggle-born, so someone from the school will have to
come and explain to your parents.

Lily: Does it make any difference being a Muggle-born?

Severus: No. It doesn't make any difference.

Lily: Good.

Severus: You've got loads of magic. I saw that. All the time I was
watching you.

It seems to me that he's reassuring her that she's just as magical as
any kid with one or more magical parents.

Magpie:
Still reads the same way to me. I think Lily's question encompasses 
the whole Hogwarts experience. It seems like a natural question for a 
Muggle-born to ask in this situation--will it make any difference 
that I am from the outside? The reassurance you describe him as 
giving her (as you quote later regarding Hermione and Slughorn) is 
pretty much the pro-Muggle-born-tolerance position. But the 
whole "you have as much magical ability" is just one way of talking 
about whether these people are "really" wizards and witches. Severus 
thinks Lily is. I do think the two kids are coming from slightly 
different places in what they say here, but to me it still seems like 
they're both talking about stuff that links up to the prejudice we 
see in the series.

I don't think either kid would use words like "prejudice" 
or "discrimination" but it still reads to me the same way. I 
understand how it doesn't to you, but I don't think my reading makes 
less sense just because they weren't specifically talking about 
Muggle-born discrimination. I think any kid going to a school with 
this kind of set up would instinctively have that worry. In short, I 
don't think it needs to be said in those words by either of them. 

As I said, I don't think the fact that Snape watches Lily because 
she's not a Muggle means he couldn't possibly have heard any ideas 
about Purebloods or Muggleborns. I just read Severus as having a more 
complicated relationship with the idea from the outset--complicated, 
but not unusual. If he had already been exposed to ideas about Muggle-
borns I think he would have just overcome them because he wanted to 
be friends with Lily so badly. That's what I think the pause is 
showing that a scene that showed Snape as just being confident and 
not needing to drink in Lily's Lily-ness at that moment wouldn't.

Of course as a pause it doesn't actually say anything, so I 
understand people reading it differently. I just still read Snape not 
as someone who came to Hogwarts completely ignorant of the blood 
issue and then had his head filled with the stuff and turned against 
his friend, but as a kid who was exposed early in life and went back 
and forth throughout it based on emotions. Unfortunately his emotions 
temporarily led him to embrace it. I don't think it makes that much 
of a difference to Snape the character later on, though. Either way 
his views as expressed are anti-Voldemort, then pro-Voldemort, then 
anti-Voldemort again. (Which is also pro-Lily, anti-Lily and then pro-
Lily.) I guess another reason I read it this way is it lays a good 
foundation for Snape's later desire to have it both ways.

Carol:
To get back to the original point, if I were a student from a
nonmusical family with a scholarship to Juilliard and I asked a kid
whose mother had attended Juilliard, "Does it make any difference
having a nonmusical family?" I wouldn't necessarily be worried about
being discriminated against by the other students or the teachers. I'd
probably be more worried about my own ability to keep up and my lack
of training and experience in a family that didn't know B flat from a
flat tire.

Magpie:
Musical ability isn't bound up with family and exclusive membership 
in the Julliard scenario. I doubt everyone at Julliard expects most 
of the kids to come from specifically Philharmonic families, for 
instance. Lily's entering a world that operates on insiders and 
outsiders. I think it's natural for her to wonder about her status in 
this case in a way she wouldn't as a Julliard student whose parents 
who didn't play instruments.

Carol:
Carol, wondering how we would read that question and answer if we had
first met Severus and Lily as children

Mapgie:
Couldn't say, but since it comes at the end of the series especially 
I think I'd read it the same way. I've had thousands of pages telling 
me what kind of difference it makes to some people.

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 20:49:49 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 20:49:49 -0000
Subject: Slytherin House / MALcolm BADdock / Eileen / Sorting Lily
In-Reply-To: <gmlohl+10g13@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmnghe+cjrp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185714

Pip!Squeak wrote in
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185647>:
> 
> << In support of this: look at his name. MALcolm BADdock. Given
JKR's love of names that reveal something about a character, I'd guess
that young Mal is a bad 'un. {g} >>

Catlady replied: 
> Strangely enough, considering that I didn't take Remus Lupin's name
as meaning that his parents wanted him to become a werewolf, I took
MAL BAD as indicating that parents were Slytherins whose ambition for
their child was for him to be a bad 'un.

Carol responds:

As I stated earlier, Malcolm means a follower of St. Columba. As I
didn't mention, it was also the name of four Scottish kings. As for
Baddock, I did find the unlikely etymology "open-mouthed idiot" on a
Harry Potter site, but I also found (through Google Books) a more
likely etymology, with Baddock as a variant of Badcock, in which "BAd"
or "Bat" is a variant of Bart (short for Bartholomew) and -cock, like
-kin, in a diminutive, so the name is roughly equivalent to "Barty"
except that it's a surname--manybe "son of Bart" would be closer.

At any rate, singling out this one kid on the basis of his name (if
that's what they did) marks the Twins not only as rude and immature
but ignorant as well. (Someone should tell Fred that his name means
"peaceful ruler"--a name that he would do well to live up to--and
George that his means "farmer"--so perhaps he'd do well to avoid
mocking other people based on their names.) 

That aside, what were the Lupins (with their wolf-related name) doing
naming their son Remus, after the wolf-raised twin who was killed by
his own brother? It seems like an ill-omened name. And Fenrir Greyback
is even worse--It's like saying, "I want my kid to be a vicious,
wolflike monster." (It could be a pseudonym that he adopted himself,
but where would Fenrir learn Norse mythology? Or he could be the child
of two werewolves, one of whom had some education in Muggle mythology
before he was bitten, unlikely as that seems.) And why would anyone,
even a Slytherin Dark Witch, name her daughter Alecto, after one of
the three Furies? (BTW, Alastor Moody's first name also means
"avenging demon" in Greek.) I'm guessing that these names have been in
the families for a long time, and they've lost track of the original
significance (just as James Potter's parents probably weren't thinking
of James as a variant of Jacob meaning "holder of the heel" or
"supplanter"). They just liked the name as a huge number of Muggle
parents also do.

JKR is, of course, selecting the names for her characters, some of
which fit the adult self they develop into, but in some cases, it's
almost as if the name determines the destiny of the character or
reflects the character's character, so to speak. (I can see our
choices revealing who we are, though I'd prefer that they *determine*
who we become, but if our names reveal who we are or will become,
those of us with names like Fenrir and Alecto are doomed.)

Then again, maybe there's hope for Theodore ("Gift of God") Nott.
("Blaise" unhelpfully means "lisping," but Daphne Greengrass, named
after a beautiful nymph who got turned into a laurel tree, might not
be a bad sort based on her name alone.)

Carol, who thinks that, given the inconsistencies in JKR's naming
system, we'd be better off not jumping to conclusions about little
Malcolm Baddock






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 21:01:32 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 21:01:32 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmneo0+dldi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmnh7c+9c3t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185715

Alla <snip>:

> But now I just realized something, and thank you for that, I
speculated for quite some time that Snape may have joined DE while at
school. But believe it or not, I never took this quote as additional
hint for that speculation. I think I am now. "You and your previous
DE" to me can nicely support that Snape indeed became a part of them
literally.
>
Carol responds:

"You and your precious little Death Eater friends" simply indicates
that his *friends* have either become or openly expressed a desire to
become Death Eaters. She doesn't like his associating with such people
and has had to defend him against it. But if he had actually joined
them at that point or expressed such a desire himself, she would
already have dropped him. All it took was for him to call her a
"Mudblood." If he'd shown her a Dark Mark, her reaction would have
been a lot worse than a snub. She'd have ended the relationship then
and there and possibly hexed him into the bargain. <SNIP>

Alla:

No, it does not simply indicates that for me. I  can take it as a 
hint that he is already or could be in the near future (if not now, 
next school year). Of course it requires  speculating, but that is 
what I stated I was doing. I see in the text Snape knowing Dark magic 
(yes, it is enough for me to see him inventing Sectusemptra) very 
early on, I see him killing flies when he was a kid ( I am still not 
hundred percent sure that it was him, but almost sure), which to me 
indicates that darkness was in him since he was very young.

What else do I see in the text? I see a *fact* that he joined at 
least very shortly after he graduated. I now see that he is 
associating with Death Eaters when he is in school. And of course  I 
see the example of Draco, who at least if not officially got the mark 
(although I believe he did), but we know that he did work for Dark 
lord and at least once Dumbledore compares Harry and Draco to Snape 
and James,  I think I can take it as a hint for what Snape was doing 
while in school.

I had seen speculations based on significantly LESS amount of textual 
hints. 

Magpie:
Or else she's just calling him out on knowing their plans to join LV
when they graduate.

Alla:

Well, definitely. That is why it is speculation. He may have joined 
after school, I just see enough to think that maybe he did that 
earlier.

Magpie:
It makes perfect sense as an answer to "Will I be discriminated
against?" to me. It's the reason she will be okay. Lily wouldn't have
needed to have experienced discrimination to wonder if her being a
Muggleborn would make her an outsider. I don't think she'd call it
discrimination but she'd have reason to wonder if her parents not
being Wizards would make her different in peoples' eyes. She'd
understand that for some kids this is the world they've lived in for
generations and she's just gotten a random ticket.

Alla:

Me too, great argument Magpie. I certainly had no idea how immigrants 
were treated in the USA before I came here. I was hoping that we will 
be okay, but I certainly wondered how much of the outsider it will 
make me ? having thick accent, not knowing enough English, if nothing 
else. I can totally relate to Lily's mindset here as you postulate.





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 21:44:39 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 21:44:39 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmnh7c+9c3t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmnjo7+ir3q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185716

Alla wrote:
> <snip> I see in the text Snape knowing Dark magic (yes, it is enough
for me to see him inventing Sectusemptra) very early on, I see him
killing flies when he was a kid ( I am still not hundred percent sure
that it was him, but almost sure), which to me indicates that darkness
was in him since he was very young. >snip>

Carol responds:

In the snippet of memory in which Severus (and I agree that it's
him--who else could it be?) kills flies, the narrator specifically
identifies him as "a greasy-haired teenager." In the other two, he's
identified as "a small dark-haired boy" crying as a man yells at a
cowering woman and as "a scrawny boy" who rides an apparently hexed
broom as a laughing girl (presumably Lily) watches. I read the
fly-zapping scene as occurring after he's lost his friendship with
Lily, in contrast to the other two, in which he's, respectively, about
three or four and nine or ten.

Since green flashes aren't mentioned, we don't know whether he's
practicing Avada Kedavra on flies or merely killing time by "shooting
them down" using some other spell. To me, the scene indicates that
he's bored and friendless and has nothing better to do than to sit in
his room casting spells at flies. (He may or may not be a Death Eater,
but if he's already joined them, why is he sitting at home in  his
bedroom?)

Since the color of the spell is not mentioned, we don't know whether
he's AKing the flies or just Stunning them. (Harry, IIRC, practiced
Stunning on wasps and Impedimenta on a fly.) Or maybe he's killing
them with a special fly-killing spell that Wizards use as a magical
alternative to Muggle fly swatters. I can't imagine them tolerating
the nasty disease-spreading pests. They'd kill the flies somehow, just
as Muggles do, except that they'd use magic.

In any case, if killing flies is an indication of murderous intentions
or evil character, whether in teenagers or adults, we Muggles had
better take a closer look at ourselves.

Carol, who has killed enough flies in her lifetime for several hundred
prison terms if fly murder is a crime




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 00:39:13 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 00:39:13 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmmp2s+2612@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmntvh+fd6o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185717

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214"
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> I speculated for quite some time that Snape may have joined DE 
> while at school. But believe it or not, I never took this quote 
> as additional hint for that speculation. I think I am now. "You 
> and your precious DE" to me can nicely support that Snape indeed 
> became a part of them literally.


zanooda:

I've always thought Lily was not talking about the real DEs here, but
about Severus's Slytherin friends (Mulciber and Co) - *future* DEs
:-). Here is how it sounds: "You and your precious little Death Eater
friends - you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's
what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can
you?" (p.675-676). Doesn't "you all" from the second sentence mean
those "precious little DE friends" from the first sentence? I can be
totally wrong about this :-), but anyway, I think it's quite possible
that Severus joined while still in school, but we can't see it from
Lily's remarks.



> Carol wrote:

> Carol, now wondering if "gang" has the same connotation for 
> British readers as for Americans and whether MWPP are also 
> referred to at some point as a "gang"


zanooda:

Yeah, in "Kreacher's Tale", when Wormtail is described on the
Marauders picture: "...flushed with pleasure at his inclusion in this
coolest of gangs..." (p.179).





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 00:51:26 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 00:51:26 -0000
Subject: Slytherin House / MALcolm BADdock / Eileen / Sorting Lily
In-Reply-To: <gmlohl+10g13@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmnume+i4n7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185718

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)"
<catlady at ...> wrote:

> So what did Lily say to the Sorting Hat? 
> Lily: I hope I'm in Slytherin with Sev.
> Hat:  They would be furious at me for putting a Muggleborn 
> into their House. They call Muggleborns 'Mudbloods'. You 
> would be happier in Gryffindor.
> Lily: I don't want to be in the same House with that bully 
> Sirius Black!
 
> How was the Hat able to talk her into Gryffindor?


zanooda:


I don't think this conversation ever happened, because, according to
the book, it took the hat less than a second to Sort Lily, there was
just not enough time for conversations :-): "...barely a second after
it had touched the dark red hair, the hat cried, "Gryffindor!"(672). I
assume there was no doubt in the hat's mind that Lily belonged in
Gryffindor, whatever she herself might think :-).











From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 01:29:50 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 01:29:50 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmnjo7+ir3q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmo0ue+t5bt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185719

Carol:
< HUGE SNIP>
In any case, if killing flies is an indication of murderous intentions
or evil character, whether in teenagers or adults, we Muggles had
better take a closer look at ourselves. <SNIP>

Alla:

In the real life of course not, but if in the book I am reading about 
the character and seeing his memories and one of those very few 
memories is him killing flies in his spare time, I will think that 
author wants to say something about the character.

He is not reading books, he is not experimenting with potions, he is 
not taking a walk, he is *killing flies*. That is a bizarre activity 
for author to point out to me.

Because sure we all killed flies at some point of our lives (although 
boy I cannot stand it, same as with cockroaches), but just as authors 
usually do not show us characters going to the bathroom, unless it is 
necessary to make a point, like few times in HP books it is necessary, 
I would think that such thing does not need to be shown.

Since it is, I choose to make some conclusions based on that scene.

JMO,

Alla





From heidi at heidi8.com  Mon Feb  9 02:20:08 2009
From: heidi at heidi8.com (Heidi Tandy)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 21:20:08 -0500
Subject: Azkatraz Programming Deadline: It's tomorrow!
In-Reply-To: <5913e6f80902081819q402ee990k15c853fe1cff56ff@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5913e6f80902081131x2795bf31v4cfe54458e1c0d9d@mail.gmail.com>
	 <5913e6f80902081819q402ee990k15c853fe1cff56ff@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5913e6f80902081820x2ef202ddp4afd35360c8f6edf@mail.gmail.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185720

Posted with permission of hpfgu's Mods:

On Feb 8, 2009 2:31 PM, "Heidi Tandy" <heidi at heidi8.com> wrote:

Where the mist rolls across San Francisco Bay, from the Golden Gate to
Alcatraz, HP Education Fanon, Inc.'s 2009 conference - AZKATRAZ -
shakes things up with discussions, panels, insight, debates,
fan-creativity, wizard rock, and more! The programming focus of
Azkatraz explores the themes of justice and the choice between what is
right and what is easy, bringing the backdrop of Alcatraz / Azkaban to
the forefront of the real issues of social justice, gender equality,
tolerance, and due process, as they are reflected in the Harry Potter
books and the larger contexts of fandom and the world around us. We
seek proposals for papers, panels, roundtable discussions, and
workshops that relate to these themes, as well as proposals pertaining
to other areas of interest to the Harry Potter fan community.

   * GLBT issues
   * Gender roles, gaps and issues; heteronormativity and traditions in HP
   * Slash as an instrument of spreading tolerance
   * Justice and vengeance in the wizarding world
   * Marginalized cultures and people
   * Ministry for Magic's incompetence and willful blindness; The
Death Eaters' Regime
   * Parallels between Rowling's Wizarding World and historical practices
   * Shipping, character studies, fanfiction and other fandom-related topics
   * The business of HP ? the films, merchandizing, and the series'
larger impact on media and culture
   * Copyright and fair use issues in fandom: fanfiction, fanart,
vidding, and publishing
   * Fanfiction to original fiction: making the jump from fandom to
published author.

We also welcome submissions outside these areas as well.

Presentation formats include, but are not limited to:

   * LECTURES - Lecture-style presentations on a chosen topic
typically involve one person lecturing and teaching in front of a
large audience, with Q & A time incorporated.
   * DISCUSSION PANELS - A discussion panel typically consists of a
few people presenting a topic and discussing and/or critically
analyzing it, preferably with a moderator to enforce structure and
order. The discussion panel should allow time for questions/comments
from the audience, or incorporate other means of audience
participation.
   * ROUNDTABLES - A roundtable chat is comprised of a group of
people having a structured discussion on a chosen topic, hosted by a
moderator.
   * WORKSHOPS - A workshop is a session that focuses on training and
teaching participants about a specific subject or skill. This format
generally consists of a small group of people instructing a large
group of participants.


Check out the Call for Papers, and submit your programming proposal,
at http://www.hp2009.org/?q=node/6 or email questions to info @
hp2009.org (without the spaces).

More information about Azkatraz - set to take place in San Francisco
from July 17 - 21, 2009 at the Parc55 Hotel - is available at
http://www.hp2009.org .


- Heidi
Team Azkatraz


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 02:21:24 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 02:21:24 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmo0ue+t5bt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmo3v4+mjvs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185721

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Carol:
> < HUGE SNIP>
> In any case, if killing flies is an indication of murderous intentions
> or evil character, whether in teenagers or adults, we Muggles had
> better take a closer look at ourselves. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> In the real life of course not, but if in the book I am reading about 
> the character and seeing his memories and one of those very few 
> memories is him killing flies in his spare time, I will think that 
> author wants to say something about the character.
> 
> He is not reading books, he is not experimenting with potions, he is 
> not taking a walk, he is *killing flies*. That is a bizarre activity 
> for author to point out to me.
> 
> Because sure we all killed flies at some point of our lives (although 
> boy I cannot stand it, same as with cockroaches), but just as authors 
> usually do not show us characters going to the bathroom, unless it is 
> necessary to make a point, like few times in HP books it is necessary, 
> I would think that such thing does not need to be shown.
> 
> Since it is, I choose to make some conclusions based on that scene.
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla

Montavilla47:
I agree that we can and should draw insight into Snape's character
from those memories.  My impression of the third memory (with
the flies) was not that Snape was so horribly sadistic, but rather
that he was horribly bored and lonely as a teenager.

She could have shown him reading or making potions--but
those would not have conveyed either boredom or loneliness
to me.  Reading is a pleasureable experience.  I don't do it 
because I'm bored or lonely.  I do it because I enjoy reading--
often to the exclusion of other people.

Likewise, potion-making would have given me the impression
that teen-Snape was dedicated, maybe obsessive about magic.
Again, not bored or lonely.  

I'll agree that there's an edge of darkness in that he's killing
living creatures.  But, if you want to convey the sort of ickiness
that we associate with dangerously violent people, flies aren't
the best choice.

But, it's a good image, isn't it?  He's bored, lonely, and maybe 
--just maybe--he's sick and violent, too.  

I like the first image, too, when he's crying in the corner.  That 
one isn't so ambiguous.  It's hard to look at a crying child and 
have anything but sympathy for him.  The most ambiguous 
responses I've heard from people to that one are 1) that is 
isn't Snape's parents, but perhaps his mother and grandfather,
and 2) that the woman isn't afraid, but that they are simply
fighting on an equal level.

But what are we to make of that second memory?  It is just
to show us that Snape was horrible at riding brooms?  Is that
Lily laughing at him?  Or a random girl?  I find that people
tend to focus on either the first or the third memory and
gloss over that second one.







From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb  9 02:27:45 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 02:27:45 -0000
Subject: Slytherin House / MALcolm BADdock / Eileen / Sorting Lily
In-Reply-To: <gmlohl+10g13@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmo4b1+hmtb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185722

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)"
<catlady at ...> wrote:
> 
> So what did Lily say to the Sorting Hat? 
> Lily: I hope I'm in Slytherin with Sev.
> Hat:  They would be furious at me for putting a Muggleborn into
theirHouse. They call Muggleborns 'Mudbloods'. You would be happier in
 Gryffindor.
> Lily: I don't want to be in the same House with that bully Sirius Black!
> 
> How was the Hat able to talk her into Gryffindor?

Pippin:
I figure it went more like this:

Lily: I hope I'm in Slytherin with Sev.
Hat: Hmmm, bright mind, plenty of power, oh yes. Muggleborn, are you?
Well, never mind, you must have wizard ancestry, that's obvious.
Lily: But I don't! And there's nothing wrong with coming from a Muggle
family! 
Hat: No? Are you sure? Well, then better be GRYFFINDOR!

 Lily could have considered her Muggle blood inferior  and attributed
all her talents to an unknown magical bloodline. In that case she
might have been admitted to Slytherin just as Riddle was. 

Pippin
(joins Catlady in hugs to Pip!squeak)






From annemehr at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 02:45:47 2009
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 02:45:47 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmnjo7+ir3q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmo5cr+986q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185723


> Carol responds:
> 
> In the snippet of memory in which Severus (and I agree that it's
> him--who else could it be?) kills flies, the narrator specifically
> identifies him as "a greasy-haired teenager." In the other two, he's
> identified as "a small dark-haired boy" crying as a man yells at a
> cowering woman and as "a scrawny boy" who rides an apparently hexed
> broom as a laughing girl (presumably Lily) watches. I read the
> fly-zapping scene as occurring after he's lost his friendship with
> Lily, in contrast to the other two, in which he's, respectively, 
about
> three or four and nine or ten.
> 

Annemehr:

Out of curiosity, what is your reason for concluding that the hexed 
broom scene is occuring when Severus is nine or ten?  My inclination 
is to assume it's during their first-year flying lessons, and that it 
was James who hexed the broom.



Carol:

> Since the color of the spell is not mentioned, we don't know whether
> he's AKing the flies or just Stunning them. (Harry, IIRC, practiced
> Stunning on wasps and Impedimenta on a fly.) Or maybe he's killing
> them with a special fly-killing spell that Wizards use as a magical
> alternative to Muggle fly swatters. I can't imagine them tolerating
> the nasty disease-spreading pests. They'd kill the flies somehow, 
just
> as Muggles do, except that they'd use magic.

Alla answered:

In the real life of course not, but if in the book I am reading about
the character and seeing his memories and one of those very few
memories is him killing flies in his spare time, I will think that
author wants to say something about the character.

He is not reading books, he is not experimenting with potions, he is
not taking a walk, he is *killing flies*. That is a bizarre activity
for author to point out to me.

Because sure we all killed flies at some point of our lives (although
boy I cannot stand it, same as with cockroaches), but just as authors
usually do not show us characters going to the bathroom, unless it is
necessary to make a point, like few times in HP books it is necessary,
I would think that such thing does not need to be shown.

Since it is, I choose to make some conclusions based on that scene.


Annemehr:

I agree with Alla, regarding the significance of the scene.

I don't read it as showing that Snape is evil or psychopathic, or 
enthused over Dark Magic, so to that extent, I agree with Carol.  But 
he is not just ridding his room of "pests," either.  What I see is 
*depression,* leading to bitterness.

He's not talking to Lily anymore.  He's not, as Alla says, doing 
potions or taking a walk.  He's not owling his "DE" friends.  He's 
not doing anything positive at all; he's just closed up in his room 
shooting down flies as though it were a distraction from what's 
really eating him.

This is one of a series of *bad* memories (because that's what Snape 
was evoking in Harry during the Occlumency lessons).  I believe it 
represents the final slide into despair that was a major part of his 
ultimately committing to the DEs.

Annemehr





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 03:01:15 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 03:01:15 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmo3v4+mjvs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmo69r+f5cu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185724

> Montavilla47:
> I agree that we can and should draw insight into Snape's character
> from those memories.  My impression of the third memory (with
> the flies) was not that Snape was so horribly sadistic, but rather
> that he was horribly bored and lonely as a teenager.

Alla:

That's a good point, but again why pick killing flies to show that he 
is bored?

Montavilla47: 
> She could have shown him reading or making potions--but
> those would not have conveyed either boredom or loneliness
> to me.  Reading is a pleasureable experience.  I don't do it 
> because I'm bored or lonely.  I do it because I enjoy reading--
> often to the exclusion of other people.

Alla:

I enjoy reading certainly, but I mean, isn't it not mutually 
exclusive - do something because you enjoy it and do it because you 
are bored and have nothing to do?

But I take your point.

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
> I'll agree that there's an edge of darkness in that he's killing
> living creatures.  But, if you want to convey the sort of ickiness
> that we associate with dangerously violent people, flies aren't
> the best choice.

Alla:

Ah, but I thought that was done deliberately ambigiuously. I mean, if 
she would have shown Snape killing dogs, cats, not even talking about 
people, we would have agreed that it is not good, right?

With flies, well could be nothing, could be he was just bored, 
absolutely, or it could be that the emphasis is on *killing*, not on 
who is being killed.

Heck, for the longest time I was not sure that it **was** Snape.

Montavilla47:
> But, it's a good image, isn't it?  He's bored, lonely, and maybe 
> --just maybe--he's sick and violent, too. 

Alla:

Yes :-)
 
Montavilla47: 
> I like the first image, too, when he's crying in the corner.  That 
> one isn't so ambiguous.  It's hard to look at a crying child and 
> have anything but sympathy for him.  The most ambiguous 
> responses I've heard from people to that one are 1) that is 
> isn't Snape's parents, but perhaps his mother and grandfather,
> and 2) that the woman isn't afraid, but that they are simply
> fighting on an equal level.

Alla:

Right, was not sure that it was Snape myself, but you are definitely 
right and heck, if Snape's story would have been told in a different 
chronological order I may have continued to retain more sympathy for 
him, you know, or I could have hated him even more, heh.

Montavilla47: 
> But what are we to make of that second memory?  It is just
> to show us that Snape was horrible at riding brooms?  Is that
> Lily laughing at him?  Or a random girl?  I find that people
> tend to focus on either the first or the third memory and
> gloss over that second one.

Alla:

Honestly, no idea. I suppose it was Lily just because again it will 
be a waste of words otherwise, why show random girl unnecessary for 
the story.





From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 03:46:09 2009
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 03:46:09 -0000
Subject: Slytherin House / MALcolm BADdock / Eileen / Sorting Lily
In-Reply-To: <gmo4b1+hmtb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmo8u1+gle3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185725

Pippin:
*(snip)*
>  Lily could have considered her Muggle blood inferior  and attributed
> all her talents to an unknown magical bloodline. In that case she
> might have been admitted to Slytherin just as Riddle was. 

Ceridwen:
When Riddle was Sorted, did anyone actually know that he was a
half-blood?  Or did it look like he was a Muggle-born Sorted into
Slytherin?  We don't know if the hat took some time to Sort him or if
it was like Draco, barely on the head before shouting out "Slytherin!"

If Harry's discussion with the hat is any indication, there is no talk
about ancestry, just placement.  If the hat Sorts by getting into the
student's mind, Riddle didn't know about any definitive Wizarding
ancestry.  He may have guessed, or suspected, or wished; that isn't
having assurance (like Draco had assurance) of such an ancestry. 
Wishes are not facts.  Dumbledore apparently didn't tell anyone about
Riddle's talent with Parseltongue so to anyone watching the Sorting, a
Muggleborn was Sorted into Slytherin and that didn't seem to create
huge ripples in the school or the WW.

Ceridwen.




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 06:19:58 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 06:19:58 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmo5cr+986q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmohue+srrh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185726

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote:

> What I see is *depression*, leading to bitterness.
 
> He's not talking to Lily anymore.  He's not, as Alla says, doing 
> potions or taking a walk.  He's not owling his "DE" friends.  He's 
> not doing anything positive at all; he's just closed up in his room 
> shooting down flies as though it were a distraction from what's 
> really eating him.


zanooda:

I agree with you. The fly-killing memory is shown among bad,
unpleasant memories, which means that this is a bad memory too. If he
killed flies just out of boredom, this wouldn't be a bad memory, in
fact, this wouldn't be something worth remembering at all. If he took
pleasure in killing flies, it would be a good memory to him, not a bad
one :-). No, this memory is a bad memory because it shows some really
bad moment in his life, maybe even depression, as you suggest ;-( .





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Feb  9 13:36:14 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 13:36:14 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmo5cr+986q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmpbge+ns6b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185727

 
> Annemehr:

> 
> He's not talking to Lily anymore.  He's not, as Alla says, doing 
> potions or taking a walk.  He's not owling his "DE" friends.  He's 
> not doing anything positive at all; he's just closed up in his room 
> shooting down flies as though it were a distraction from what's 
> really eating him.


Potioncat:
Looks like depression to me. It's not clear how old he was either. He 
could be 17--or he could be 16, thinking he can get away with doing 
magic in a magic household in his own room. Or not caring that he 
shouldn't be doing magic at all.

If he had been catching flies and pulling off wings--then I'd be 
concerned about something worse. I mean, depression is bad enough.

The other thing this memory does is to show us something of his living 
conditions. Quite a few readers picked up on that the first go around. 
Yeah, flies get into any sort of house, but he has flies in his 
bedroom. Probably has a garbage can just below his window. No screen on 
the window.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Feb  9 13:43:01 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 13:43:01 -0000
Subject: Riddle (was Re: Slytherin House / MALcolm BADdock / Eileen / Sorting Lily
In-Reply-To: <gmo8u1+gle3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmpbt5+jdhm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185728

 
> Ceridwen:
> When Riddle was Sorted, did anyone actually know that he was a
> half-blood?  Or did it look like he was a Muggle-born Sorted into
> Slytherin?  We don't know if the hat took some time to Sort him or if
> it was like Draco, barely on the head before shouting out "Slytherin!"

Potioncat:
The Sorting Hat would know that he was a half-blood, but no one else 
would. (Unless the magic quill gives the child's parents' names and 
teachers have access to it.) He doesn't know it himself. 

In the first moments of sorting, everyone would think he's a Pureblood. 
Then as people learned a little more about him, they would think he 
landed in a Muggle orphanage by some mistake. The fact that he does 
such magic give Slughorn reason to believe Riddle is from good 
wizarding stock--and Slughorn is a very tolerant Supremist.

What I wonder is, if Riddle was so good at charming people, why didn't 
he weedle an invitation to someone's house for the summer?




From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 14:20:24 2009
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 14:20:24 -0000
Subject: Riddle (was Re: Slytherin House / MALcolm BADdock / Eileen / Sorting Lily
In-Reply-To: <gmpbt5+jdhm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmpe38+jc1s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185729

Potioncat:
> The Sorting Hat would know that he was a half-blood, but no one else 
> would. (Unless the magic quill gives the child's parents' names and 
> teachers have access to it.) He doesn't know it himself

Ceridwen:
How would the Sorting Hat know?  In the only exchange we have between
the hat and a student, ancestry isn't discussed.  That could be
because the hat knows and it just doesn't matter in Harry's case,
being as he has proper Wizarding antecedents, but it could just as
well mean the hat doesn't know, it isn't part of its job to know.

Potioncat:
> In the first moments of sorting, everyone would think he's a Pureblood.

Ceridwen:
Unless they read the Nature's Nobility and knew there was no Riddle
family listed.

Potioncat:
> Then as people learned a little more about him, they would think he 
> landed in a Muggle orphanage by some mistake. The fact that he does 
> such magic give Slughorn reason to believe Riddle is from good 
> wizarding stock--and Slughorn is a very tolerant Supremist.

Ceridwen:
Until after the Sorting, only Dumbledore knew the extent of Tom's
magical abilities.  Maybe he mentioned, but the way Dumbledore has
been presented, I'm just as inclined to think he didn't say a word,
preferring to let Tom make his own impression and hoping he would have
changed his ways, at least as far as his Wizarding peers were concerned.

Slughorn speaks from knowing Tom for at least five years when we see
them together.  By this time, too, Tom has traced his mother's family
and may have mentioned his credentials himself.  I'm not convinced the
hat knew his ancestry before he did, but equally, there's nothing in
the text to support that it didn't know.

Potioncat:
> What I wonder is, if Riddle was so good at charming people, why didn't 
> he weedle an invitation to someone's house for the summer?

Ceridwen:
Good question!  Why not?  All I can think of is, Tom was naturally a
loner and didn't want to get that close to people.  He had natural
victims at the orphanage that he could browbeat and intimidate.  Maybe
he liked to do that, or needed to.

But, yeah, you'd think he'd want to spend his time at someone's house
instead of the orphanage, if only to ingratiate himself with people
who could further his ambitions.

Ceridwen.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Feb  9 14:36:57 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 14:36:57 -0000
Subject: Riddle (was Re: Slytherin House / MALcolm BADdock / Eileen / Sorting Lily
In-Reply-To: <gmpe38+jc1s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmpf29+p4qo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185730

 
> Ceridwen:
> How would the Sorting Hat know?  In the only exchange we have 
between
> the hat and a student, ancestry isn't discussed.  That could be
> because the hat knows and it just doesn't matter in Harry's case,
> being as he has proper Wizarding antecedents, but it could just as
> well mean the hat doesn't know, it isn't part of its job to know.

Potioncat:
If one of the qualities for being sorted into Slytherin is blood 
status, then the Sorting Hat must have some way of knowing. It seems 
the Sorting Hat can play around with combinations of qualities, and 
doesn't use the word "pure" too closely.
> 
 
> Ceridwen:
> Unless they read the Nature's Nobility and knew there was no Riddle
> family listed.
Potioncat:
I don't think too many students do. Perhaps parents might. But I 
think the first impression would be that since the Hat placed him in 
Slytherin, his family connections must be good. And in the first few 
days, if the question came up, I think most would tend to think that 
perhaps the name Riddle was made up.
> 

> 
> Ceridwen:
> Until after the Sorting, only Dumbledore knew the extent of Tom's
> magical abilities.  Maybe he mentioned, but the way Dumbledore has
> been presented, I'm just as inclined to think he didn't say a word,
> preferring to let Tom make his own impression and hoping he would 
have
> changed his ways, at least as far as his Wizarding peers were 
concerned.

Potioncat:
I think his magical ability showed up pretty quickly once classes 
started.

 
> Ceridwen:
> Good question!  Why not?  All I can think of is, Tom was naturally a
> loner and didn't want to get that close to people.  He had natural
> victims at the orphanage that he could browbeat and intimidate.  
Maybe
> he liked to do that, or needed to.


Potioncat:

Good point.

Maybe his real reason for wanting to stay at Hogwarts over the summer 
had more to do with being at Hogwarts than with not being at the 
orphanage. He'd found the CoS by then I think. Maybe he wanted time 
in the restricted section.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 16:46:15 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 16:46:15 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmo0ue+t5bt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmpmkn+gs99@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185731

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214"
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol:
> < HUGE SNIP>
> In any case, if killing flies is an indication of murderous intentions
> or evil character, whether in teenagers or adults, we Muggles had
> better take a closer look at ourselves. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> In the real life of course not, but if in the book I am reading about 
> the character and seeing his memories and one of those very few 
> memories is him killing flies in his spare time, I will think that 
> author wants to say something about the character.
> 
> He is not reading books, he is not experimenting with potions, he is 
> not taking a walk, he is *killing flies*. That is a bizarre activity 
> for author to point out to me.
> 
> Because sure we all killed flies at some point of our lives (although 
> boy I cannot stand it, same as with cockroaches), but just as authors 
> usually do not show us characters going to the bathroom, unless it is 
> necessary to make a point, like few times in HP books it is necessary, 
> I would think that such thing does not need to be shown.
> 
> Since it is, I choose to make some conclusions based on that scene.
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla
>
Carol responds:
And I feel equally justified in drawing the conclusion that he's
lonely and bored and has nothing better to do. Clearly, he's not yet a
Death Eater or he'd be out doing something much worse--"a spot of
Muggle torture," maybe. What teenage boy sits alone in his room doing
virtually nothing if he has something better to do? It's a "darkened"
room, which seems to indicate that it's daytime and he's pulled the
shades. My first reaction on reading the scene was that he'd been
grounded for some reason. You'd think, BTW, that he'd be inventing
spells or practicing potions, but he seems to be just bored and
depressed. Clearly, this memory has stayed with him, just like the
memory of his parents fighting and of Lily watching him on the bucking
broom. It seems like a one-time thing. I think it's his reaction to
the end of fifth year, a summer without Lily and nothing to do but
kill flies--and time. Obviously, he got over it at some point and
joined the Death Eaters, but if Lily's words are any indication, not
even Mulciber and Avery have yet done so. (At a guess, there are
enough adult Death Eaters running around at this time that Voldemort
is not yet recruiting unqualified teenagers. Severus returns to school
that fall and the next and finishes his education, which I don't think
he would have done if he were already a DE.)

And if my room were full of flies, you can bet I'd be killing them by
any means available. I would be very surprised if the WW doesn't have
a spell for that specific purpose.

Carol, who thinks it's a bad idea to read what we know a person will
become into his behavior as a teenager, James and Wormtail being cases
in point




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 17:16:44 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:16:44 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmo3v4+mjvs@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmpods+a7no@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185732

Montavilla47 wrote:
> I agree that we can and should draw insight into Snape's character
from those memories.  My impression of the third memory (with the
flies) was not that Snape was so horribly sadistic, but rather that he
was horribly bored and lonely as a teenager.
> 
> She could have shown him reading or making potions--but those would
not have conveyed either boredom or loneliness to me.  Reading is a
pleasureable experience.  I don't do it because I'm bored or lonely. 
I do it because I enjoy reading--often to the exclusion of other people.
> 
> Likewise, potion-making would have given me the impression that
teen-Snape was dedicated, maybe obsessive about magic. Again, not
bored or lonely.  
> 
> I'll agree that there's an edge of darkness in that he's killing
living creatures.  But, if you want to convey the sort of ickiness
that we associate with dangerously violent people, flies aren't the
best choice. <snip>
> 
Carol:
I'm not snipping anything here because I agree completely. Now if we'd
seen him torturing a spider and taking pleasure from it like
Crouch!Moody, I'd agree with Alla that we were looking at a sick and
violent teenager. Or if he were randomly killing cats and dogs. But
who doesn't kill flies? They're nasty and annoying, and the buzz of
just one fly can drive you crazy till you've killed the thing.

Like you, I read the scene as indicating that Teen!Snape is bored,
lonely, and depressed--too depressed to invent spells or read or
experiment with potions or even Apparate over to Mulciber's house and
see what he's up to. It's a sad scene, actually, and I think Harry
viewed it that way. He certainly didn't draw any conclusions like,
"Oh, look! I can see that he's a future Death Eater!" from it. And if
he were a real Death Eater, he'd be out there with the others
torturing Muggles or performing some duty for Voldemort, whether it's
spying or making poisons. And as I said before, *Harry* also practiced
spells on insects, so that in itself is no indication that he's up to
no good.

Montavilla47:
> I like the first image, too, when he's crying in the corner.  That
one isn't so ambiguous.  It's hard to look at a crying child and have
anything but sympathy for him. <snip>

Carol responds:
Exactly. And I think that's Harry's response, too. He understands for
the first time ever that Snape had a hard childhood. The sympathy
doesn't last because Snape is concentrating on the lesson, controlling
his anger and actually praising Harry for the Protego and the memory
of the MoM corridor takes precedence in both Harry's and Snape's
minds, but that teeny glimpse has paved the way for the sympathy, even
empathy, that Harry will again feel when he sees his father and Sirius
attacking "Snape" two on one and publicly humiliating him.

Montavilla 47: 
> But what are we to make of that second memory?  It is just to show
us that Snape was horrible at riding brooms?  Is that Lily laughing at
him?  Or a random girl?  I find that people tend to focus on either
the first or the third memory and gloss over that second one.

Carol responds:
I agree that the memory is ambiguous, especially the behavior of the
girl. Is she laughing at him in the sense of making fun of him? That
doesn't say much for Lily, if it's her, and I think it is. She's his
only friend, at least when he's quite young (pre-Hogwarts) and the
only one he's likely to be with.

Clearly, it's not the flying lesson at school, or they wouldn't be
alone and she would also be struggling to learn to fly (no enchanted
brooms at her house to practice on and we see no indication that she's
a gifted flyer like James and Harry). At a guess, they're at Severus's
house when his parents aren't home and he's having a go on his
mother's broom without ever having been taught how to use it. Since
the broom is trying to buck him off, the point can't be that he's a
bad flyer. The broom either senses his inexperience and, unlike
Neville, he holds on for dear life, or it's been hexed, probably by
his mother, to keep him from flying on it. We don't see him falling
off, which would indicate that he's a bad flyer, and if he were in any
real danger, his dear friend Lily wouldn't be laughing. At any rate,
the adult Snape has no trouble flying either as a referee in CoS or in
the chase scene in DH. (How and why he learned to fly without a broom,
we don't know, but he certainly was afraid of flying.)

I don't know what to make of the broom memory, either, but I think it
shows a young Severus eager to learn skills he's not quite ready for
(in contrast to Lily, who's quite happy to watch him and laugh rather
than take her turn--maybe the laughter indicates excitement and
happiness rather than ridicule?) or the broom is hexed, which I think
is likely from its behavior. One thing's for sure, it's not a fine
racing broom like the not-yet invented Nimbus 2000 or Firebolt.
Severus's mother wouldn't be able to afford one. I suspect it's the
broom she uses to clean her house (and, occasionally, for
transportation), which she doesn't want her nine- or ten-year-old son
to attempt to ride.

Carol, who thinks that the memory shows Severus's fearlessness and
spirit of adventure but is not sure what to make of Lily's behavior





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 17:44:53 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:44:53 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmo5cr+986q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmpq2l+t8b3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185733

Carol earlier:
> > 
> > In the snippet of memory in which Severus (and I agree that it's
him--who else could it be?) kills flies, the narrator specifically
identifies him as "a greasy-haired teenager." In the other two, he's
identified as "a small dark-haired boy" crying as a man yells at a
cowering woman and as "a scrawny boy" who rides an apparently hexed
broom as a laughing girl (presumably Lily) watches. I read the
fly-zapping scene as occurring after he's lost his friendship with
Lily, in contrast to the other two, in which he's, respectively, about
three or four and nine or ten.

> Annemehr responded:
> 
> Out of curiosity, what is your reason for concluding that the hexed
 broom scene is occuring when Severus is nine or ten?  My inclination
 is to assume it's during their first-year flying lessons, and that it
was James who hexed the broom.

Carol again:
The fact that they're alone and that Lily doesn't have a broom
indicates that it's not the flying lesson. If she thought that James
had hexed Severus's broom, she'd be scowling at James, not laughing.
Besides, James at eleven wouldn't yet know how to hex a broom. He'd be
more interested in showing off his flying skills if he already knew
how to fly or learning to fly himself if he didn't. I think it's much
more likely that his mother hexed her broom to keep her young son from
using it (and being seen by the Muggle neighbors).
> 
Annemehr:
<snip>
> I don't read it [the fly scene] as showing that Snape is evil or
psychopathic, or  enthused over Dark Magic, so to that extent, I agree
with Carol.  But he is not just ridding his room of "pests," either. 
What I see is *depression,* leading to bitterness.
> 
> He's not talking to Lily anymore.  He's not, as Alla says, doing 
potions or taking a walk.  He's not owling his "DE" friends.  He's not
doing anything positive at all; he's just closed up in his room 
shooting down flies as though it were a distraction from what's really
eating him.

Carol responds:
Exactly. He's not necessarily using AK. He may be Stunning them or
using some fly-killing spell, but what matters is that he's not doing
anything useful. He's obviously lonely, bored, and depressed. If this
scene occurred after third or fourth year, he'd be with Lily. It seems
to occur after fifth year, when he's no longer her friend and not yet
a DE and seems to have lost all sense of direction. I agree that he's
depressed--and probably angry with himself as well. At least he's not
doing anything seriously destructive or cruel. But, seriously, if I
were alone in my room with a bunch of flies, I'd kill those flies--or
I'd leave. The fact that he chooses not to leave indicates that he has
no place else to go. He might find something more productive to do,
but he's evidently too depressed to find joy in books or invented
spells or potions. It's significant, too, that he's not with his
Slytherin friends even though he's presumably old enough to Apparate.
He has to be brooding over Lily. There's no other explanation for this
uncharacteristic behavior. (We never see the adult Snape doing
nothing, and Teen!Snape seems to be very studious before the break-up
with Lily. given the walls full of books and his memorization of
textbooks later, he seems to have resumed his studiousness by the time
he became a teacher if not before, which makes this period in his life
stand out from the rest.)

Annemehr 
> This is one of a series of *bad* memories (because that's what Snape
was evoking in Harry during the Occlumency lessons).  I believe it
represents the final slide into despair that was a major part of his
ultimately committing to the DEs.

Carol:
I agree about the final slide into despair but not necessarily that
Snape was evoking bad memories in Harry during the Occlumency lessons
(remember his kiss with Cho, the memory that prompts Harry to take
action?). I'm also not sure that the hexed broom incident qualifies as
a bad memory (though Snape doesn't like having Harry see it--his love
for Lily is his great secret). I think that the memories are random,
mostly bad only because both Harry and Snape have mostly bad memories.

Carol, who thinks that the primary purpose of the memories is to
arouse the reader's curiosity about Snape and add to his ambiguity




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Mon Feb  9 17:58:20 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:58:20 -0000
Subject: Riddle (was Re: Slytherin House / MALcolm BADdock / Eileen / Sorting Lily
In-Reply-To: <gmpf29+p4qo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmpqrs+d196@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185734


> Potioncat:
> If one of the qualities for being sorted into Slytherin is blood 
> status, then the Sorting Hat must have some way of knowing. 

Pippin:
Possibly it only knows what the student knows. Riddle assumed
immediately that he must have had one wizard parent and that it hadn't
been his mother, since she died. But  he could have been a Muggleborn,
for all he actually knew.  The Hat, according to Dumbledore, sorted
him immediately into Slytherin. I think to the Hat the appearance of
magical blood is more important than the fact of it, especially since,
AFAWK, there is no such thing anyway. 

If what Rowling says in her interviews is true and even Muggleborns
owe their magic to wizard ancestry somewhere in the past, then
probably everyone, including Muggles, has wizard ancestry. If so, 
there is probably some set of genetic switches that turns  magic off. 


Pippin





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 18:26:46 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 18:26:46 -0000
Subject: Riddle (was Re: Slytherin House / MALcolm BADdock / Eileen / Sorting Lily
In-Reply-To: <gmpe38+jc1s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmpsh6+hvet@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185735

Potioncat wrote:
> > The Sorting Hat would know that he was a half-blood, but no one
else would. (Unless the magic quill gives the child's parents' names
and teachers have access to it.) He doesn't know it himself
> 
Ceridwen replied:
> How would the Sorting Hat know?  In the only exchange we have
between the hat and a student, ancestry isn't discussed.  That could
be because the hat knows and it just doesn't matter in Harry's case,
being as he has proper Wizarding antecedents, but it could just as
well mean the hat doesn't know, it isn't part of its job to know. <snip>

Carol responds:

First, a digression before I get back to Tom Riddle. The Sorting Hat
knows that Salazar Slytherin wanted no one but Pure-Bloods in his
House. It's possible that he put some sort of spell on the hat to
enable it to identify and reject Muggle-borns. Certainly, no
Muggle-born who knew about the Pure-Blood supremacist views of most
Slytherins would choose to be Sorted there, and the Hat almost
certainly knows a Muggle-born when it sees one because it can see into
the child's mind and would see a child with a Muggle background and no
magical experience. Lily, for example, would have been an obvious
misfit for Slytherin from the outset. Why it put her in Gryffindor
rather than Ravenclaw, and quickly, too, I can't say. it obviously
didn't consider her inclinations, probably because, as a Muggle-born,
she'd be uninformed or ill-informed. At any rate, there was no long
conversation with her as with Harry (and, apparently, Seamus).

With Harry, the Hat must have either have known who he was or sensed
his ability to speak Parseltongue, which would have prompted it to
consider Slytherin and only Harry's resistance and equal qualification
for Gryffindor convinced it to place him there.

With Tom Riddle (told you I'd get back on topic eventually!) I think
that the Hat sensed not only an affinity for Dark Magic but his
ability as a Parselmouth, which would have been much more evident in
his memories than in Harry's one encounter with a snake. Given the
rarity of Parselmouths, he would have had to be a descendant (I almost
said "ancestor"!) of Salazar Slytherin. If the Sorting Hat knew about
the Chamber of Secrets, it might have guessed that Tom Riddle was
Salazar's true heir. But just as the yew wand with the phoenix feather
core knew that Tom Riddle was its rightful master and chose him, the
Sorting Hat would immediately recognize an ambitious, powerful,
Dark-Magic-practicing Parselmouth who clearly had Wizarding ancestry
and must have been descended from Slytherin himself. Even if it saw
the Muggle orphanage in that quick glimpse of Tom's mind, the
Salazar-Slytherinish aura that this child gave off would be sufficient
to show that this boy was no Muggle-born. After all, it had some of
Salazar's "brains" and would immediately sense the affinity.

Carol, who thinks that just seeing Tom talking to snakes might have
been sufficient reason to place him in Slytherin and certainly
sufficient evidence that he had Wizarding ancestry




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Feb  9 18:34:33 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 18:34:33 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmpods+a7no@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmpsvp+q696@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185736

Carol:
> I don't know what to make of the broom memory, either, but I think 
> it shows a young Severus eager to learn skills he's not quite ready 
> for (in contrast to Lily, who's quite happy to watch him and laugh 
> rather than take her turn--maybe the laughter indicates excitement 
> and happiness rather than ridicule?) or the broom is hexed, which I 
> think is likely from its behavior. One thing's for sure, it's not a 
> fine racing broom like the not-yet invented Nimbus 2000 or Firebolt.
> Severus's mother wouldn't be able to afford one. I suspect it's the
> broom she uses to clean her house (and, occasionally, for
> transportation), which she doesn't want her nine- or ten-year-old 
> son to attempt to ride.


SSSusan:
The only thing I'd say as a counter to the possibility that the girl 
(probably Lily) is laughing out of excitement or happiness is that I 
tend to look at the memories the way Alla does.  That is, there's a 
*reason* JKR chose these specific memories to include.  Since this is 
in there with other bad/negative memories, I think that leads us to 
more naturally conclude that it's representative of another negative 
incident.  

Why would there be a memory of him trying to ride a bucking broom and 
having a girl laughing along with him out of excitement, making it at 
least a semi-positive memory?  No, I think the girl laughing *at* 
Severus is what we're supposed to conclude; as in, yet another 
instance where something is going wrong for poor Severus.

Siriusly Snapey Susan






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  9 18:38:48 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 18:38:48 -0000
Subject: Riddle (was Re: Slytherin House / MALcolm BADdock / Eileen / Sorting Lily
In-Reply-To: <gmpsh6+hvet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmpt7o+rjkh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185737

> Carol responds:
 Lily, for example, would have been an obvious
> misfit for Slytherin from the outset. Why it put her in Gryffindor
> rather than Ravenclaw, and quickly, too, I can't say. it obviously
> didn't consider her inclinations, probably because, as a Muggle-
born,
> she'd be uninformed or ill-informed. At any rate, there was no long
> conversation with her as with Harry (and, apparently, Seamus).

Magpie:
Why could it not have considered her inclinations? She seems like 
pure Gryffindor to the core, to me, so I didn't find it surprising it 
put her there quickly. If you mean she wouldn't have wanted to be 
Sorted in the same House as James Potter wanted, I don't see why 
should assume that's true to the point where she went under the Hat 
saying "Not Gryffindor" the way Harry said "Not Slytherin." Lily 
might not have held the House responsible for James wanting to be in 
it and just sat on the stool without thinking much of anything. The 
hat saw that her inclinations were towards bravery and standing up 
to/from people and Sorted her into Gryffindor without Lily ever 
thinking about James or Sirius (or even Snape) at all.

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 19:21:58 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 19:21:58 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmpsvp+q696@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmpvom+59vv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185738

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman"
<susiequsie23 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol:
> > I don't know what to make of the broom memory, either, but I think 
> > it shows a young Severus eager to learn skills he's not quite ready 
> > for (in contrast to Lily, who's quite happy to watch him and laugh 
> > rather than take her turn--maybe the laughter indicates excitement 
> > and happiness rather than ridicule?) or the broom is hexed, which I 
> > think is likely from its behavior. One thing's for sure, it's not a 
> > fine racing broom like the not-yet invented Nimbus 2000 or Firebolt.
> > Severus's mother wouldn't be able to afford one. I suspect it's the
> > broom she uses to clean her house (and, occasionally, for
> > transportation), which she doesn't want her nine- or ten-year-old 
> > son to attempt to ride.
> 
> 
> SSSusan:
> The only thing I'd say as a counter to the possibility that the girl 
> (probably Lily) is laughing out of excitement or happiness is that I 
> tend to look at the memories the way Alla does.  That is, there's a 
> *reason* JKR chose these specific memories to include.  Since this is 
> in there with other bad/negative memories, I think that leads us to 
> more naturally conclude that it's representative of another negative 
> incident.  
> 
> Why would there be a memory of him trying to ride a bucking broom and 
> having a girl laughing along with him out of excitement, making it at 
> least a semi-positive memory?  No, I think the girl laughing *at* 
> Severus is what we're supposed to conclude; as in, yet another 
> instance where something is going wrong for poor Severus.
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan
>
Carol responds:
I've already indicated that I think that the memories were random
rather than necessarily bad, but suppose for the sake of argument that
you're right and the memory is "bad" because he's being laughed at.
Who could the girl be besides Lily and what does it say about dear
sweet Lily if she's laughing *at* her good friend Severus?

I do think that the girl is Lily (who else could it be?), but I don't
think it's a bad memory because she's laughing *at* him. I think it's
a painful memory because it involves Lily, the girl he loved and lost.
The adult Snape is angry because Harry has had a glimpse of his past,
including Lily, but he's much less angry than he is later when Harry
starts revealing memories that clearly belong to Voldemort, especially
the MoM corridor that the Order members are guarding. And he does
praise Harry for using that Protego, which I don't think he would do
if the memories were so bad that they upset him. After all, he's taken
precautions against this very possibility by putting more important
memories in the Pensieve. (If Snape were to remove all but his few
happy memories, his head would be empty.) We don't see a look of fear
or anger on Severus's face in this scene. What I see is determination
to either fly or subdue the broom or at least to stay on. It's like a
ten-year-old would-be bronc rider riding a wild colt. If the girl is
Lily and if she's really his friend and if she thought he were in any
real danger, she'd be screaming or yelling at him to come down (the
way the girls act in Harry's first flying lesson. Only the bad girls
laugh at Neville. Are we supposed to class Lily with Pansy Parkinson?
Surely not.)

BTW, there's a contrast between nervous, jumpy Neville who kicks off
too soon and quickly crashes, looking scared and white as he falls
twenty feet to the ground, and Severus, who's stubbornly trying to
mount a bucking broomstick. If it were their first class rather than
an incident at Severus's house before they start school, Lily would be
trying to mount her own broomstick, not laughing at her friend,
especially if she thought he was in any danger. (It's not a matter of
not being able to fly. It's a matter of the broom not letting him
mount it. Had Lily attempted to mount that particular broom, she would
have failed equally dismally given her lack of experience, but she
doesn't even try. Sometimes, girls have more sense than boys.)

Carol, who thinks that if Lily is laughing *at* her good friend, she
must be amused by his stubbornness and not consider him to be in any
real danger--either that, or she's no friend at all




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 20:03:44 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 20:03:44 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmku1q+m64g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmq270+32lp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185739

Carol earlier:
> Later, he does exactly that. Watch him in the Duelling Club scene in
CoS. <SNIP>
>
> Alla again:
>
> Um, yes, he does. More than a year later, when Harry is pretty set
in thinking that Snape is the evil personified.
>

Carol responds:
I'm not sure what your point is here since, as we know, Harry is wrong
in his assessment of Snape. I'm merely saying that Snape *does*
observe Harry on occasion without antagonizing him, exactly as you
think he ought to do. <SNIP of the rest of the post>

Alla:

My point is that Snape observes Harry when he already antagonized him 
and when Snape already in my opinion made his incorrect conclusions 
about him.

I would have wanted Snape  to observe Harry **before** making 
conclusions about him.

So, yes, sure Snape sometimes observes Harry, but my point is that it 
does not matter anymore to their relationship which Snape (in my 
view) screwed up on their first lesson.

Oh, *we* do not know that Harry is wrong in his assesment of Snape. 
As far as I know Harry is wrong about Snape being loyal to Voldemort, 
but as far as I know Harry was also spot on in deciding that Snape 
hated him and always did till very end. I make the conclusion that 
Snape hated Harry till very end  among other things based on Snape 
being so indignant (for him?) when Dumbledore asks about it. And of 
course, while I know that interview is just an interview, I am 
pleased that what I read from the text is the same what author 
intended, since JKR did say that Snape hated Harry till very end.

JMO,

Alla




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 20:06:54 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 20:06:54 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmpods+a7no@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmq2cu+sjma@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185740

> Montavilla 47 wrote:
 
> But what are we to make of that second memory? It is just to show
> us that Snape was horrible at riding brooms? Is that Lily laughing >
at him? Or a random girl? I find that people tend to focus on 
> either the first or the third memory and gloss over that second one.


zanooda:

But the broom memory *is* the third one :-). Those memories were not
in a chronological order, they appeared randomly. And it couldn't be
to show Snape was horrible at riding brooms - he wasn't riding it in
that memory, just *trying* to mount it, which was impossible because
the broom was bucking. It looks to me like one more humiliating memory.

 
> Carol responds:

> I agree that the memory is ambiguous, especially the behavior of the
> girl. Is she laughing at him in the sense of making fun of him? That
> doesn't say much for Lily


zanooda:

Yeah, but sometimes you can't help but laugh when someone unwillingly
does something funny, even though you are aware that the other person
wouldn't like it :-). It's not so easy to control - you can try to
suppress laughter, but still, you won't be able to conceal what you
are doing. 

If the girl was Lily, she could have laughed quite innocently, just
because it was a funny scene, but for little Sev, who probably wanted
to show off and intended to impress her by riding that broom (not
knowing it was jinxed), it was a humiliating experience, that's why it
ended up among his bad memories (it just doesn't feel like a happy
memory to me). 

At that stage of his and Lily's relationship *he* was the one who knew
everything about magic and WW, and he probably enjoyed his role of a
leader, he liked it that Muggleborn Lily was his "protegee". He wanted
to show her his magical skill by flying, but ended up trying to tame
the bucking broomstick and making Lily laugh - not exactly what he
wanted to achieve :-).


zanooda, still not sure that the girl in the memory was Lily ...




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 21:03:38 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 21:03:38 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmpods+a7no@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmq5na+c54t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185741

> Montavilla 47: 
> > But what are we to make of that second memory?  It is just to show
> us that Snape was horrible at riding brooms?  Is that Lily laughing at
> him?  Or a random girl?  I find that people tend to focus on either
> the first or the third memory and gloss over that second one.
> 
> Carol responds:
> I don't know what to make of the broom memory, either, but I think it
> shows a young Severus eager to learn skills he's not quite ready for
> (in contrast to Lily, who's quite happy to watch him and laugh rather
> than take her turn--maybe the laughter indicates excitement and
> happiness rather than ridicule?) or the broom is hexed, which I think
> is likely from its behavior. One thing's for sure, it's not a fine
> racing broom like the not-yet invented Nimbus 2000 or Firebolt.
> Severus's mother wouldn't be able to afford one. I suspect it's the
> broom she uses to clean her house (and, occasionally, for
> transportation), which she doesn't want her nine- or ten-year-old son
> to attempt to ride.
> 
> Carol, who thinks that the memory shows Severus's fearlessness and
> spirit of adventure but is not sure what to make of Lily's behavior
>
Montavilla47:

Well, she might be laughing AT him a little.  After all, she's able to 
fly without a broom (although she's not zipping around here).  I like
your interpretation, because it also shows that if they are sneaking 
Eileen's broom (like Ginny!), that they are a mischievous little pair
and leads into the idea of them doing something like reading 
Petunia's letter.







From ceridwennight at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 21:20:54 2009
From: ceridwennight at hotmail.com (Ceridwen)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 21:20:54 -0000
Subject: Riddle (was Re: Slytherin House / MALcolm BADdock / Eileen / Sorting Lily
In-Reply-To: <gmpsh6+hvet@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmq6nm+vujh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185742

Carol:
> First, a digression before I get back to Tom Riddle. The Sorting Hat
> knows that Salazar Slytherin wanted no one but Pure-Bloods in his
> House. It's possible that he put some sort of spell on the hat to
> enable it to identify and reject Muggle-borns. 

Ceridwen:
Then why not a spell to keep anyone but a Pureblood out?  Why the
Half-bloods like Riddle actually was, and Snape?  Why half-humans like
some of the narration *implies* about Millicent Bullstrode?  I know an
implication isn't a bald statement, but nothing ever contradicts it. 
And for Muggleborns, how many generations before all trace of
Wizardness is gone?  

Carol:
> Certainly, no Muggle-born who knew about the Pure-Blood 
> supremacist views of most Slytherins would choose to be Sorted 
> there, and the Hat almost certainly knows a Muggle-born when 
> it sees one because it can see into the child's mind and would see 
> a child with a Muggle background and no magical experience. 

Ceridwen:
I take it you mean the Muggleborns who would discuss their placement
with the hat.  Why would the hat know a Muggle-born when it sees one,
though?  Riddle was born and raised in an orphanage.  He could do
magic, but so could Harry, so could Lily - in fact, the magic we see
Lily do was impressive - flying or levitating herself to the ground,
making a flower flap its petals like butterfly wings - *at will.* 
None of this "accidental" magic for her, any more than for Tom Riddle.

How long before the WW relation is diluted out of the equation?  It
could be that one of Lily's great- (or great-great-)grandparents was a
witch or wizard, or a Squib carrying only one allele or set of
alleles, part of a whole set of magical genes.  The hat wouldn't know
since a child born in 1960 would not necessarily know its more distant
antecedents.  After seeing the dregs that were the Gaunts, I can
imagine quite a few things about them and their ilk that would have
had a Wizarding ancestor quite recently without even the parents knowing.

Tom Riddle's background was purely Muggle.  His memories would all be
of the Muggle matrons and staff, and even if the hat could access his
earliest awareness, the woman dying on the table was not clearly a
witch, probably not even clearly seen by the infant Tom.

Carol:
> Lily, for example, would have been an obvious
> misfit for Slytherin from the outset. Why it put her in Gryffindor
> rather than Ravenclaw, and quickly, too, I can't say. it obviously
> didn't consider her inclinations, probably because, as a 
> Muggle-born, she'd be uninformed or ill-informed. At any rate, 
> there was no long conversation with her as with Harry (and, 
> apparently, Seamus).

Ceridwen:
I can buy Lily being an obvious misfit for Slytherin, but based on her
recent experience on the train with James and Sirius and the emotions
that probably invoked in her, not on any clues to her birth.  Those
emotions, if they were of the protective sort, would have marked her
for Gryffindor.  I don't think the hat needed to listen to what she
had to say to see Gryffindor in her.  I doubt if the hat even
considered Ravenclaw.  Then there was that certain disregard for the
rules she evidenced when making the flower flap and floating out of
the swing - Petunia says their mother told her to be careful with
things like that, but she does them anyway.  Gryffindor to the core.

Carol:
> With Tom Riddle (told you I'd get back on topic eventually!) I think
> that the Hat sensed not only an affinity for Dark Magic but his
> ability as a Parselmouth, which would have been much more evident in
> his memories than in Harry's one encounter with a snake. Given the
> rarity of Parselmouths, he would have had to be a descendant (I 
> almost said "ancestor"!) of Salazar Slytherin. 

Ceridwen:
Yes, and somehow he ended up his own grandfather.  ;)

Talking to snakes had to crop up some natural way in the first place,
some mutation, even among wizards.  This is not an absolute and a hat
that seems to be sentient (only, where does it keep its brain? ;) )
and living for a thousand years, dealing with all sorts and Sortings,
would know that the assured is most definitely not assured.  Why even
listen to Harry, then, if that incident of Parseltongue meant
Slytherin and only Slytherin to the hat?  "There it is, you talk to
snakes, you're...  SLYTHERIN!"  But that didn't happen.  Tom Riddle
was Sorted because of the other things you mentioned, I think - his
attraction to the Dark Arts or attraction to what he would learn to
call Dark Arts, and his ambition, both of which were evident from the
minute we first see him at the orphanage.  He may or may not have been
Slytherin's blood kin as far as anybody knew for sure - he was most
certainly his spiritual descendant.

Ceridwen.




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 00:15:55 2009
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 00:15:55 -0000
Subject: Dully - Fly Shooting and Insect Screens(Was Re: Lily WAS: First lesson)
In-Reply-To: <gmpbge+ns6b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmqgvr+9jn4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185743

> Annemehr:
> ... he's just closed up in his room shooting down flies as 
> though it were a distraction from what's really eating him.

Goddlefrood:

Why wouldn't he want Harry to know that he once sat in his 
bedroom shooting flies? IMO, this was only a small part of 
a larger memory. It could be conjectured that the young 
Severus had just been told to stay away from that Evans 
girl, leading him to go to his room to shoot flies in 
order to release some of his frustaration over that. Not 
something he would be proud of or particularly want Harry 
to know about.

Of course, it would have been a giveaway about Snape's 
allegiance and would have confirmed LOLLIPOPS two books 
too early, thus detracting from the big reveal. That is 
if the entire memory had been seen by Harry and not just 
this snippet of it.

> Potioncat:
> The other thing this memory does is to show us something 
> of his living conditions. 

> Yeah, flies get into any sort of house, but he has flies 
> in his bedroom. Probably has a garbage can just below his 
> window. No screen on the window.

Goddlefrood:

In the UK of the 70s, which this was, it would be highly 
unusual for a house to have any kind of insect screen. It 
would be prety odd even now, actually. Insects aren't a 
major concern to the average householder there and to a 
wizarding family, they'd be welcomed as ingredients for 
potions :-)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Tue Feb 10 01:04:01 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 01:04:01 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmpsvp+q696@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmqjq1+alc8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185744

 
>> Siriusly Snapey Susan 
> Why would there be a memory of him trying to ride a bucking broom and 
> having a girl laughing along with him out of excitement, making it at 
> least a semi-positive memory?  No, I think the girl laughing *at* 
> Severus is what we're supposed to conclude; as in, yet another 
> instance where something is going wrong for poor Severus.


Potioncat:
Not all the memories in Harry's head were bad. The one with Cho was 
simply deeply personal...as if the others weren't, but you know what I 
mean.

So, if the girl is Lily, and I think she must be, Snape wouldn't want 
Harry to see the whole memory. After all, this is what happens next:

The broom thows him to the ground. Lily rushes over to see if he is all 
right. Then she kisses him and exclaims, "Sev, you're so brave!"

You know Severus wouldn't want Harry to see that!


Potioncat, going off to count posts, something she hasn't needed to do 
in a long, long time.






From lizzyben04 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 01:24:18 2009
From: lizzyben04 at yahoo.com (lizzyben04)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 01:24:18 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmq2cu+sjma@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmql02+o0n3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185745

> zanooda:
> 
> Yeah, but sometimes you can't help but laugh when someone 
unwillingly
> does something funny, even though you are aware that the other 
person
> wouldn't like it :-). It's not so easy to control - you can try to
> suppress laughter, but still, you won't be able to conceal what you
> are doing. 
> <snip> 
> zanooda, still not sure that the girl in the memory was Lily ...


lizzyben:

And it's quite reminiscent of another memory in which Snape was in a 
humiliating, awkward situation that Lily found amusing:

"A second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside down in the 
air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs 
and a pair of graying underpants.

Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though 
she was going to smile..."

If that bucking broomstick memory is any guide, Snape finds it 
really, really humiliating to look foolish in front of Lily. So that 
moment - pf being bullied, humiliated & stripped in front of her - 
probably *would* be Snape's Worst Memory.

lizzyben, who's pretty sure it was!





From juli17 at aol.com  Tue Feb 10 02:32:41 2009
From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 21:32:41 EST
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
Message-ID: <c44.24ec3696.36c24149@aol.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185746

 
Carol wrote:

At any  rate, you think that Dumbledore should reprimand Snape. I don't
(and not  just because I don't think his actions in that first lesson
are all that  horrible). I think that DD either doesn't know or, more
likely, approves of  Snape's teaching methods for reasons of his own,
one of which is that his  plan to defeat Voldemort (which probably
includes Harry's self-sacrifice  from the beginning) would be a
complete disaster if Harry developed an  inflated ego. (And Snape,
though he's not privy to all of DD's plans, also  knows that arrogance
in an enemy of Voldemort can be a fatal flaw. He's  seen what happened
to that arrogant berk, James Potter, and if his  protecting Harry is to
be of any use, he doesn't want an overly confident  Harry prematurely
confronting Voldemort. In fact, he does his best to keep  Harry away
from that third-floor corridor.)


 
Julie:
I'm certain Dumbledore knew about Snape's teaching methods in  general,
and Snape's attitude toward Harry in particular. By allowing--or we could  say
deliberately manipulating--Snape to teach all those years, Dumbledore  gave
his tacit approval of Snape's methods. I also think it is just as I seem to 
recall JKR saying, that Dumbledore knows the children of Hogwarts will 
have to learn to deal with unpleasant and unfair people throughout their  
lives--
not to mention people who might want to harm or kill them, i.e. Death  
Eaters--
so they might as well start learning now. I think Dumbledore doesn't see 
Snape's methods as harmful in the long run (as I do not), and probably  
figures
it is more Snape's loss to be the most hated teacher at school than  his
students', who at least learn something in the process. And  Dumbledore
never hesitates to let Snape know when he thinks Snape has gone too  far.
 
As for Harry in particular, again I think Dumbledore sees Snape  as not only 
a life lesson as per above, but knows all along Snape is protecting Harry's  
life, 
so he's willing to give Snape some latitude. I do  believe Dumbledore would 
like
Snape and Harry to get along, or at least see each other without their  
prejudices
blinding them, but he can't force it, and again it's more Snape's loss than  
Harry's.
 
Finally, there is always a manipulative part of Dumbledore that he  can't 
quite
squelch, even when he genuinely cares about the people involved. So it  works
in his favor for Snape to play the bad cop, so Dumbledore can play the good  
cop
and manipulate with kindness, getting Harry right where he wants (needs)  him.
 
Julie
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1218550342x1201216770/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=fe
bemailfooterNO62)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Feb 10 03:15:59 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 03:15:59 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmql02+o0n3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmqrhf+mdno@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185747

Siriusly Snapey Susan
> > Why would there be a memory of him trying to ride a bucking broom 
> > and having a girl laughing along with him out of excitement, 
> > making it at least a semi-positive memory? No, I think the girl 
> > laughing *at* Severus is what we're supposed to conclude; as in, 
> > yet another instance where something is going wrong for poor 
> > Severus.

Potioncat:
> Not all the memories in Harry's head were bad. The one with Cho was
> simply deeply personal...as if the others weren't, but you know 
> what I mean.

SSSusan:
Okay, fair enough re: not all the memories being negative.  I still 
think it was her laughing at him a bit, though.  More on that below.


Potioncat:
> So, if the girl is Lily, and I think she must be, Snape wouldn't 
> want Harry to see the whole memory. After all, this is what happens 
> next:
>
> The broom thows him to the ground. Lily rushes over to see if he is 
> all right. Then she kisses him and exclaims, "Sev, you're so brave!"

SSSusan:
LOL.  So *that's* what came next! ;)


zanooda:
> > Yeah, but sometimes you can't help but laugh when someone 
> > unwillingly does something funny, even though you are aware that 
> > the other person wouldn't like it :-). It's not so easy to 
> > control - you can try to suppress laughter, but still, you won't 
> > be able to conceal what you are doing. 

SSSusan:
I agree.  Especially if you suspect the person isn't in any *real* 
danger or a dire situation.  Heck, just this past Saturday, I could 
*not* control my laughter when a girl called my 10-year-old son, to 
see if he could go to the movies with her.  HE was adamant that this 
was not a DATE, but my daughter & I just couldn't avoid laughing at 
him, even though we knew it would set my son off if he realized we 
were muffling it.  


> lizzyben:
> And it's quite reminiscent of another memory in which Snape was in 
> a humiliating, awkward situation that Lily found amusing:
> 
> "A second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside down in 
> the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid 
> legs and a pair of graying underpants.
> 
> Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as 
> though she was going to smile..."

SSSusan:
Here's the dreaded "Yep, I agree." 

Siriusly Snapey Susan,
getting away with a "Me, too" post by pretending to have something 
additional to say above it (heh heh)





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 04:24:24 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 04:24:24 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmql02+o0n3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmqvho+mjia@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185748

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lizzyben04" <lizzyben04 at ...> wrote:

> And it's quite reminiscent of another memory in which Snape 
> was in a humiliating, awkward situation that Lily found amusing:

> "A second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside down 
> in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, 
> pallid legs and a pair of graying underpants.
> Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as 
> though she was going to smile..."


zanooda:

I'm not sure that the situations are comparable :-). I can easily
imagine myself laughing in the bucking broom case, but in SWM - not so
much. Maybe gray underwear can be funny, I don't know, but even if it
can, I would have been so mad at the jerks humiliating my friend, that
I wouldn't be able to laugh anyway (that's why I think that Sev and
Lily were not really best friends at the time of SWM, not anymore). 

As for the bucking broom - the whole situation is just funny, that's
all. It's something for "WW's Funniest Home Videos" :-). Snape is just
not someone who can laugh at himself, otherwise he would have laughed
together with the girl (Lily or not). Actually, I don't remember Snape
ever laughing :-).


> lizzyben04 wrote:

> If that bucking broomstick memory is any guide, Snape finds it 
> really, really humiliating to look foolish in front of Lily. So 
> that moment - pf being bullied, humiliated & stripped in front of 
> her - probably *would* be Snape's Worst Memory.


zanooda:

Yeah, I know many people think it's the worst memory because what
happened that day led to Severus and Lily's break-up, but IMO even
without the break-up it would have been really dreadful.






From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Feb 10 14:06:43 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:06:43 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmqvho+mjia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gms1lj+m0fa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185749

zanooda:
> As for the bucking broom - the whole situation is just funny, that's
> all. It's something for "WW's Funniest Home Videos" :-). 

SSSusan:
I think that's a good way of putting it, Zanooda.  I mentioned 
yesterday that I could see myself laughing in that situation, as long 
as the person wasn't in dire need or personal danger, and I surely 
don't think Snape was.  And while he may not have been in dire need 
or personal danger in the underwear memory, it would have been a much 
more intensely & personally embarrassing situation than the bucking 
broom, so less laughable, I agree.


zanooda:
> Snape is just not someone who can laugh at himself, otherwise he 
> would have laughed together with the girl (Lily or not). Actually, 
> I don't remember Snape ever laughing :-).

SSSusan:
Good point and it does raise the question:  *Did* we ever see Snape 
laughing in the series?  I truly can't recall a time, off the top of 
my head.

Siriusly Snapey Susan








From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 10 14:27:09 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:27:09 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gms1lj+m0fa@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gms2rt+f101@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185750

> SSSusan:
> Good point and it does raise the question:  *Did* we ever see Snape 
> laughing in the series?  I truly can't recall a time, off the top of 
> my head.

Magpie:
I believe he looks like he's trying to keep from laughing when Mrs. 
Norris is petrified and they're examining her.

-m




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 15:56:00 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:56:00 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gms2rt+f101@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gms82g+g7qs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185751

> Magpie:
> I believe he looks like he's trying to keep from laughing when Mrs. 
> Norris is petrified and they're examining her.

Zara:
Trying not to smile, actually.

> CoS, "The Writing on the Wall":
> Snape loomed behind them, half in shadow, wearing a most peculiar 
expression: It was as though he was trying hard not to smile. 

Zara:
I don't think we have ever seen him laugh. Smile, yes, employ humor, 
yes, but not actually laugh. That's probably too uncontrolled a display 
of emotion for him. He does lose control on occasoin, but the things 
that tend to trigger it, aren't very funny.





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Tue Feb 10 16:18:14 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:18:14 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmq270+32lp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gms9c6+nfib@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185752

 Alla:

> Oh, *we* do not know that Harry is wrong in his assesment of Snape. 
> As far as I know Harry is wrong about Snape being loyal to
Voldemort,  but as far as I know Harry was also spot on in deciding
that Snape  hated him and always did till very end.

Pippin:
But  can we agree that Harry was wrong in assuming that Snape
consciously wanted him to fail, just as Snape was wrong to assume that
Harry was deliberately antagonizing him? Their perceptions were
colored by previous experiences. The Dursleys did want Harry to fail,
and James did provoke Snape on purpose. 

As Dumbledore says, he has no power to make men see the truth.
Threatening Snape will not make Snape see Harry any differently.
Dumbledore does not seem to see anything wrong with humiliating people
who actually *are* overconfident, so he wouldn't reprimand Snape for
that. 

In any case, Harry's celebrity meant he could never be shielded from
public mockery. By the time he had to face Rita Skeeter, Harry could
take it in stride, unlike Hagrid who completely withdrew, or Hermione,
who embarked on a dangerous and ultimately senseless course of revenge. 

Pippin




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 17:59:04 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 17:59:04 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gms9c6+nfib@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmsf98+s1qt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185753

Pippin:
But can we agree that Harry was wrong in assuming that Snape
consciously wanted him to fail, just as Snape was wrong to assume that
Harry was deliberately antagonizing him? Their perceptions were
colored by previous experiences. The Dursleys did want Harry to fail,
and James did provoke Snape on purpose.

Alla:

That depends Pippin on what exact meaning you put in "Snape 
consciously wanted him to fail". If you mean that Harry was wrong 
that Snape wanted him dead, sure we can agree on that
 until 
Dumbledore ordered him to not want Harry dead anymore, that IS. If 
you mean that Snape wanted Harry to  succeed to the full of his 
potential, to be a  successful student instead of somebody who covers 
in fear when he sees Snape, then no, we cannot agree on that.

Or maybe you mean that Snape wanted Harry to fail but 
*subconsciously*? Then again we cannot agree on part of this, 
specifically I think that Snape was capable of controlling not his 
feelings about Harry, but his behavior based on that.

Pippin:
As Dumbledore says, he has no power to make men see the truth.
Threatening Snape will not make Snape see Harry any differently.

Alla:

No, but it can make Snape **behave** differently towards Harry even 
if his feelings remain the same.  I remain absolutely convinced that 
Snape would vastly prefer being in Hogwarts to NOT being in Hogwarts, 
IMO of course.

Pippin:
Dumbledore does not seem to see anything wrong with humiliating people
who actually *are* overconfident, so he wouldn't reprimand Snape for
that.

Alla:

Well, this does not earn Dumbledore any  brownie points with me and, 
I find it irrelevant, since Snape does not humiliate any 
overconfident person on that first lesson, he humiliates eleven year 
old who has very little clue about new world he arrived in. Not that 
I think again that had Harry had more confidence, he would have 
deserved that humiliation.

Pippin:
In any case, Harry's celebrity meant he could never be shielded from
public mockery. By the time he had to face Rita Skeeter, Harry could
take it in stride, unlike Hagrid who completely withdrew, or Hermione,
who embarked on a dangerous and ultimately senseless course of 
revenge.

Alla:

Harry has Snape to thank for that as well? 

JMO,

Alla




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 10 18:24:28 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:24:28 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmsf98+s1qt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmsgos+rg8h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185754

> Pippin:
> In any case, Harry's celebrity meant he could never be shielded from
> public mockery. By the time he had to face Rita Skeeter, Harry could
> take it in stride, unlike Hagrid who completely withdrew, or Hermione,
> who embarked on a dangerous and ultimately senseless course of 
> revenge.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Harry has Snape to thank for that as well? 

Magpie:
Hermione took public humiliation far more in stride than Harry did. She 
laughed off Rita's articles. (Snape and Draco seemed to just make Harry 
more irritated in an area in which he was already sensitive due to his 
humiliation with the Dursleys--which included public humiliations at 
school with Dudley.) Hermione only got angry when Rita's articles 
caused her real annoyance (like people sending her pus that burned her 
hands). Then she embarked on a plan for revenge that not only worked 
with no danger to her at all but turned out to be of great benefit to 
her side. Can't see Hermione as any sort of object lesson according to 
the way the story worked out. 

-m




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Feb 10 18:53:56 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 18:53:56 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmsf98+s1qt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmsig4+ped1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185755

Pippin:
> > As Dumbledore says, he has no power to make men see the truth.
> > Threatening Snape will not make Snape see Harry any differently.
 
Alla:
> No, but it can make Snape **behave** differently towards Harry even 
> if his feelings remain the same.  

Pippin:
> > Dumbledore does not seem to see anything wrong with humiliating 
> > people who actually *are* overconfident, so he wouldn't reprimand 
> > Snape for that.
 
Alla:
> Well, this does not earn Dumbledore any  brownie points with me 
> and, I find it irrelevant, since Snape does not humiliate any 
> overconfident person on that first lesson, he humiliates eleven 
> year old who has very little clue about new world he arrived in.


SSSusan:
This has been where I've always come down on the Snape "fault" as 
teacher of Harry (and Neville).  I essentially have been where Alla 
is on all that I snipped.  Snape couldn't be forced to see or believe 
the truth, but DD could have applied pressure on Snape to behave in 
certain ways (or not in certain ways).

My long-argued position has been that, since Snape knew Harry was 
potentially The Prophecy Boy, he really needed, if he was going to be 
an effective teacher, to set aside his petty grievances and his 
biases and his anger and resentment and MAKE SURE this kid learned 
all that he was capable of, that he reached his full potential.  It 
was, after all, *vital* that Propechy Boy be as prepared as possible 
to face down Voldemort.

It's here that I have always felt Snape failed as a teacher -- in 
*not* being willing to adapt his methods and in *not* being willing 
to set aside his own dislike/hatred of the kid/the kid's dad enough 
to be able to not be a prick to Harry.  I'm thinking, to start with, 
of that very first lesson Alla referred to, as well as to times when 
he was downright unfair & hateful to Harry.  (And, no, I'm not saying 
Harry was blameless -- please, no -- but just that Snape could have 
done so much more, and DD could have done more to guide Snape in this.

**However**...


Pippin:
> In any case, Harry's celebrity meant he could never be shielded from
> public mockery. By the time he had to face Rita Skeeter, Harry could
> take it in stride, unlike Hagrid who completely withdrew, or 
> Hermione, who embarked on a dangerous and ultimately senseless 
> course of revenge.

SSSusan:
I think this is the first time I recall seeing this position 
expressed.  If you are arguing that Snape was attempting to bolster 
Harry's ability to persevere and face those who ridiculed him or 
mocked him, then that's interesting and, indeed, a benefit.

Then again, to give Snape credit for this would require me to believe 
that Snape knew this public mockery would be coming and that Harry 
would need to be able to take it in stride & handle it *and* that 
Snape's goal was to HELP him do so.  I'm not positive I can believe 
that to be the case.

Are you arguing that Snape was intentially doing this... or merely 
that it was a beneficial outcome from the way Snape happened to treat 
Harry?

Siriusly Snapey Susan 





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 19:16:57 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:16:57 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmsf98+s1qt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmsjr9+9dss@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185756

Pippin wrote:
> In any case, Harry's celebrity meant he could never be shielded from
public mockery. By the time he had to face Rita Skeeter, Harry could
take it in stride, unlike Hagrid who completely withdrew, or Hermione,
who embarked on a dangerous and ultimately senseless course of revenge.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Harry has Snape to thank for that as well? 

Carol responds:

If we look at unintended consequences, yes. But, of course, Lockhart
also, unwittingly, played a part in Harry's not wanting to be a
celebrity, as did his desire from the beginning to be Just Harry.

Pippin's comment made me take another look at *Dumbledore* intentions.
it seems to me that when he gives a person (Harry, Snape, McGonagall,
et al.) reasons why they should do something or why he himself has
done something, he usually gives them valid reasons that they will
accept and that are, in themselves, true--just not his primary reason.

So, when he tells McGonagall that Harry needs to be protected from his
celebrity status until he's ready, he's telling the truth, just not
the whole truth. But assuming for a moment that he meant what he said,
as far as it goes, putting Harry with the Dursleys, where he is
treated as anything but a celebrity, has made him very different from
the pampered James, who was evidently treated as special by his
"elderly" parents (weren't they in their forties when he was born? But
never mind). But, setting aside whether his treatment by the Dursleys
constitutes abuse or neglect, sleeping under the stairs with the
spiders, wearing overlarge hand-me-down clothes, and being laughed at
by the kids as school because he's different (rather like Luna) has
given him the strength of character to deal with that celebrity
status--another example of an unintended consequence, good coming out
of evil (if the Dursleys qualify as evil on a small scale).

Lessons with Snape help to further Harry's ability to deal with
bullying and unfairness, preparing him to deal with evil on a much
larger scale in the form of Voldemort. And Snape himself seems to
realize his role in preparing Harry, at least in OoP when he gives him
Occlumency lessons. If Harry can't deal with Snape's Legilimens
spells, how will he ever face the greatest Legilimens who ever lived,
who can, as we see in DH, enter the mind of his victims as if that
mind were a Pensieve?

Dumbledore, as we know, is preparing Harry in other ways as well.
While Snape is trying to stop Harry from entering the third-floor
corridor, concerned with protecting Harry without Harry's knowing what
he's doing, Dumbledore is subtly encouraging Harry's exploration,
giving him the Invisibility Cloak and lessons on how the Mirror of
Erised works, at the same time being kind to him. Dumbledore wants
Harry to survive long enough to face Voldemort, but he also wants him
to be prepared. His resourcefulness and courage must be tested and
developed, but he must also be unafraid of mean people or detentions.
Snape is part of his plan. So, I think, is Hagrid, who exposes Harry
to the Forbidden Forest and its dangers. Even Quidditch could be part
of it since it develops Harry's reflexes and exploits one of his
skills. (Did DD encourage McGonagall to buy Harry that Nimbus 2000?)

Harry isn't Neville. He never fears Snape. Instead, he learns from him
in spite of himself. (The Bezoar lesson later saves Ron's life, and
Hermione's paying attention in Potions class leads to the Polyjuice
Potion HRH brew in CoS.) Even Neville graduates from fear of Snape to
overcoming that fear and facing his real demons, the Cruciatus Curse
and Bellatrix Lestrange. 

I agree with JKR that learning to deal with mean people is an
important life lesson, and we probably make a mistake to protect our
children and prevent them from dealing with bullies on their own. What
are a few points unfairly deducted or a few sarcastic remarks compared
with the danger of torture and death?

And, as I noted earlier, Snape's exposure of Harry's "mediocrity" (or
normalcy) also serves a useful purpose. Harry doesn't have curious
Slytherins hanging around him hoping that he's the next Dark Lord, nor
does he have a horde of Gyffindor hangers on comparable to Krum's fan
club. He's free to explore Hogwarts with his two best friends while
Dumbledore turns a blind eye to rule breaking, all to prepare Harry
for the much greater challenge of facing Voldemort. The "binding
magical" contract that forces Harry to compete in the TWT (thanks to
Crouch!Moody's putting his name in the cup with no expectation of his
surviving the encounter) serves the same purpose. As Dumbledore later
tells Snape, "We have protected him because it has been essential to
teach him, to raise him, to let him try his strength." (Or, as Snape
sees it, protecting him so that he can die at the right time rather
than protecting him so that Lily won't have died in vain--yet another
of the partial truths that Dumbledore uses to manipulate people to
willingly serve his ends.)

Dumbledore needs Snape. He can't make Snape like Harry and he can't
tell Harry the truth about Snape without breaking his own word. But it
doesn't matter to DD whether they like each other. Snape's teaching
methods fit neatly into his plans for Harry in any case, not just to
protect him without his knowing it, but to test him and try him and
help him develop strength and resilience and the ability to think on
his feet. (It helps, of course, that he has a friend who's booksmart
and learns the lessons that Snape and the others actually teach.)
Dumbledore is not about to reprimand or alienate Snape. He needs him
not only to protect Harry and to serve as a spy when Voldemort returns
(not to mention his skills in potion making and dealing with Dark
Magic). Even before Karkaroff's trial, he's not about to let Snape go
to Azkaban. He needs him at Hogwarts. And, in the meantime, his
lessons, like Quidditch and Hagrid's dangerous COMC lessons, help his
students, and especially Harry, to cope with the dangers of the WW
outside Hogwarts--the antithesis of Umbridge, who thinks that
"children like yourselves" should not use magic in her classroom or
learn to defend themselves yet her detentions are crueller than any
that Snape gives.

Carol, now wondering whether James's and Sirius's treatment of Severus
somehow served to toughen him and shape him into a superb Occlumens
who uses sarcasm as both weapon and self-defense (unintended
consequences again) 

Carol, 




From lizzyben04 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 19:27:17 2009
From: lizzyben04 at yahoo.com (lizzyben04)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:27:17 -0000
Subject: Snape killing flies WAS: Re: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmqvho+mjia@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmskel+qaul@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185757

<snip>
> zanooda:
> 
> I'm not sure that the situations are comparable :-). I can easily
> imagine myself laughing in the bucking broom case, but in SWM - not 
so
> much. Maybe gray underwear can be funny, I don't know, but even if 
it
> can, I would have been so mad at the jerks humiliating my friend, 
that
> I wouldn't be able to laugh anyway (that's why I think that Sev and
> Lily were not really best friends at the time of SWM, not anymore). 

lizzyben:

I agree w/you & also agree that the friendship was long gone by that 
point. Also, Snape's Worst Memory is more humiliating & serious, 
which is why she restrained herself from laughing after a brief 
smile. But it's really a question of degree rather than a totally 
different situation - both situations involve social humiliation for 
poor Severus & both involve him being suspended in the air & made 
helpless by a magical prank. She *was* amused by the sight of Snape 
struggling, just like the girl in the broom memory was. 

So, I think that backs up that the girl is Lily & tells us something 
about her sense of humor - which is a very Gryffindor sense of humor 
that finds humor in humiliation, pain & pranks. It sort of goes back 
to the whole Gryffindor persona of rescuer/persecutor. Lily was 
Snape's rescuer, but IMO she was at times his persecutor too. Snape 
worshipped the ground Lily walked on, of course, & would never admit 
that. But in that moment, Snape is a "victim" who sees his "rescuer" 
& "persecutor" both enjoying their mutual positions of superiority. 
And he snapped at Lily for (IMO) probably the first & last time ever. 
So I like to think that SWM was the moment where he saw, for one 
instant, that his beloved rescuer & hated persecutor were somehow one 
and the same.

<snip> Snape is just
> not someone who can laugh at himself, otherwise he would have 
laughed
> together with the girl (Lily or not). Actually, I don't remember 
Snape
> ever laughing :-).


lizzyben:

Me either, though he often smirked or sneered. Ummm... maybe when 
Slytherin won the House Cup? 




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 21:24:16 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:24:16 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmsig4+ped1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmsra0+hlm6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185758

> SSSusan:
> My long-argued position has been that, since Snape knew Harry was 
> potentially The Prophecy Boy, he really needed, if he was going to be 
> an effective teacher, to set aside his petty grievances and his 
> biases and his anger and resentment and MAKE SURE this kid learned 
> all that he was capable of, that he reached his full potential.  It 
> was, after all, *vital* that Propechy Boy be as prepared as possible 
> to face down Voldemort.

Montavilla47:
But didn't Snape do that?  The most objective measure we have of
Snape's methods are the results shown in the O.W.L.s.  Harry received
an E, which is the second-highest mark possible.  I can't remember 
now what marks Harry received in his classes (except that they weren't
as high as Hermione, but better than Ron's).   I do remember that
he received the O in DADA, due to the Patronus that he learned from 
Lupin (so, hooray, Lupin), but low marks in both Divination and 
History--neither of which was taught by Snape.  

Also, as people have pointed out, the spell Harry used to defeat 
Voldemort was one that Snape taught him.

And, I'm not sure that Snape knew about Harry having to face
Voldemort.  Dumbledore tells Harry that the eavesdropper (Snape)
only heard the first part of the prophecy, which might not include
the bit about "either must die at the hand of the other."

For all Snape knew, Harry might have already fulfilled the prophecy.
When Dumbledore got Snape promise to protect Harry, there was
nothing about protecting him in order to face Voldemort in the 
future.

> Pippin:
> > In any case, Harry's celebrity meant he could never be shielded from
> > public mockery. By the time he had to face Rita Skeeter, Harry could
> > take it in stride, unlike Hagrid who completely withdrew, or 
> > Hermione, who embarked on a dangerous and ultimately senseless 
> > course of revenge.
> 
> SSSusan:
> I think this is the first time I recall seeing this position 
> expressed.  If you are arguing that Snape was attempting to bolster 
> Harry's ability to persevere and face those who ridiculed him or 
> mocked him, then that's interesting and, indeed, a benefit.
> 
> Then again, to give Snape credit for this would require me to believe 
> that Snape knew this public mockery would be coming and that Harry 
> would need to be able to take it in stride & handle it *and* that 
> Snape's goal was to HELP him do so.  I'm not positive I can believe 
> that to be the case.

Montavilla47:
Yeah.  I think it's a stretch that Snape was simply trying to toughen
Harry up in order to prepare him for Rita.  I really think it was more
Snape thinking that Harry was going to be another James and trying
to nip what he imagined was an enormous ego in the bud.  

But the celebrity thing started before Rita came along.  All during
first year, Harry was dealing with his celebrity--first with all the 
adulation of strangers and the interest about where he'd be sorted,
then with being the youngest Seeker in a hundred years and getting
the best, most expensive  broom available (while other first-years
are not allowed to have a broom at all), and then losing 150 points
(with Hermione and Neville) for his House.  

And Harry arrived at Hogwarts well prepared to deal with public
humiliation, due to his experiences with Dudley.

And I have to agree with Magpie that Hermione is shown to have
the best response to Rita's articles.  Her "senseless" course of 
revenge it shown in the books to be clever and beneficial.  It's 
only when we apply real-world ethics to the situation that it looks
dodgy.







From dreamweaver0605 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 20:12:22 2009
From: dreamweaver0605 at yahoo.com (if i care about you at all, you already know my real name.)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:12:22 -0000
Subject: Riddle (was Re: Slytherin House / MALcolm BADdock / Eileen / Sorting Lily
In-Reply-To: <gmpbt5+jdhm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmsn36+k80c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185759

> Potioncat:
> ...
> What I wonder is, if Riddle was so good at charming people, why
didn't he weedle an invitation to someone's house for the summer?


Dreamweaver:
I'm new to this group, hello by the way, but in response to your last
question which is a very interesting one,,,in HBP, Dumbeldore makes a
point of saying more than once in fact that Voldermort, even as Riddle
in his younger years, was a loner. He surrounded himself with people,
but not friends. I believe he wouldn't want to go to someone's house
over their summer break, instead opting to return to the orphanage to
continue his mind games with the others there. He used it as a
training ground of sorts testing his magical skill early on before he
even knew he was a wizard, just when he thought there was
something "special" about him.
I'm sorry to nose in, that question just really caught my eye!!

Dreamweaver





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Feb 11 03:45:27 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 03:45:27 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmsra0+hlm6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmthkn+p37g@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185760

SSSusan:
> > My long-argued position has been that, since Snape knew Harry was 
> > potentially The Prophecy Boy, he really needed, if he was going 
> > to be an effective teacher, to set aside his petty grievances and 
> > his biases and his anger and resentment and MAKE SURE this kid 
> > learned all that he was capable of, that he reached his full 
> > potential.  It was, after all, *vital* that Propechy Boy be as 
> > prepared as possible to face down Voldemort.
 
Montavilla47:
> But didn't Snape do that?  The most objective measure we have of
> Snape's methods are the results shown in the O.W.L.s.  Harry 
> received an E, which is the second-highest mark possible.  

SSSusan:
To the best of his ability?  I don't believe so, no.  A teacher who 
insults and berates and belittles most often does not draw out the 
best work from a student... and we know he didn't from Harry, who 
tended to shut down and/or just get angry in return, rather than 
saying, "Okay, I'm just gonna buckle down and SHOW this guy he's 
wrong about me!"  Nope, Harry wasn't that kind of student, and if 
Snape really wanted Harry to learn, he'd have known that.  He didn't 
care, tho, imo.  

And I'm also talking about Harry learning not just classroom stuff, 
but life stuff beyond it.  The inability to stick with Occlumency, 
the "oops" with the potion -- these are not the kinds of things 
teachers who are determined for a student to learn do.  IMHO. :)



Montavilla:
> And, I'm not sure that Snape knew about Harry having to face
> Voldemort.  Dumbledore tells Harry that the eavesdropper (Snape)
> only heard the first part of the prophecy, which might not include
> the bit about "either must die at the hand of the other."
> 
> For all Snape knew, Harry might have already fulfilled the prophecy.
> When Dumbledore got Snape promise to protect Harry, there was
> nothing about protecting him in order to face Voldemort in the 
> future.

SSSusan:
Yes, that's true that he didn't know the second half, but by the time 
Harry had been at Hogwarts a couple of years, he definitely knew that 
Harry was in danger from Voldemort, and that it was very serious 
business.  

I guess I think of someone like Lupin here.  I know, I know -- it's 
been argued by some that Lupin's method of teaching the Patronus 
Charm wasn't all that explicit either (comparing to Snape's teaching 
about Occlumency/Legilimency), but does anyone doubt that Lupin would 
have done *whatever it took* for Harry to learn?  He stuck with 
Harry, he was patient, he was encouraging -- all the kinds of things 
a kid learning something new & difficult needs to help him along.  
This is what I mean about Snape not doing all he could have.  He 
proved incapable of setting certain things aside so that he could be 
& do those things. 

This is not at all to downplay the important things he did teach, the 
important things Harry learned from *or* because of Snape.  I'm just 
talking about effective instruction and a *desire* to teach a 
particular student.  Snape was a grudging teacher of Harry and on 
occasion was an impediment to his learning, in my view, along with 
those times he did teach okay.  Harry was to blame, too, but, having 
been a teacher of teens, I will always put the higher burden on a 
teacher to get the ball rolling and to play fair.

Just my two knuts.  YMMV of course.

Siriusly Snapey Susan





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 14:25:44 2009
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:25:44 -0000
Subject: Lily WAS: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmpq2l+t8b3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmun58+an6n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185761

 
> > Annemehr, earlier:
> > 
> > Out of curiosity, what is your reason for concluding that the 
hexed
>  broom scene is occuring when Severus is nine or ten?  My 
inclination
>  is to assume it's during their first-year flying lessons, and that 
it
> was James who hexed the broom.
> 
> Carol again:
> The fact that they're alone and that Lily doesn't have a broom
> indicates that it's not the flying lesson. If she thought that James
> had hexed Severus's broom, she'd be scowling at James, not laughing.
> Besides, James at eleven wouldn't yet know how to hex a broom. He'd 
be
> more interested in showing off his flying skills if he already knew
> how to fly or learning to fly himself if he didn't. I think it's 
much
> more likely that his mother hexed her broom to keep her young son 
from
> using it (and being seen by the Muggle neighbors).
> > 

Annemehr replies:
I see.

Well, the snippet itself doesn't give us any context at all: "A girl 
was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick --
"  That's it.

I think your take is as good as mine, and vice-versa, since I don't 
think it's a safe assertion that they were alone, or that Lily didn't 
have a broom.  Nor would I think that Lily suspected James at all.

The bit about whether James could hex a broom (at the beginning of 
his first year) is more interesting.  I do think it's quite 
possible.  We know Hermione tried a few simple spells before arriving 
at Hogwarts.  James, coming from a magical family, would presumably 
have the opportunity to learn a few simple hexes as well, eh?

Or, Sirius may have taught him a thing or two.

It does fit James's personality traits of taking delight in hexing 
people, and aquiring - and using - as much magic as he can 
(Marauder's Map, becoming an animagus).  He's definitely a contrast 
to Harry, who seemed mostly to only learn a spell to save his life, 
or more importantly, to keep from flunking out of Hogwarts.

But, anyway.  I suppose, since there are no details given whatever, 
that we are just meant to guess (and, post-DH, to understand) that 
this is Lily laughing at Severus, and that this is a fairly 
significant memory for him.


 
> Carol:
> But, seriously, if I
> were alone in my room with a bunch of flies, I'd kill those flies--
or
> I'd leave.

Annemher:
If I were a witch, I think I'd stun them, and drop them back outside 
where they belong.  Wasps and mosquitos, too.  The spiders are 
welcome to stay, as well as the sweet little silverfish.


Carol:
> He has to be brooding over Lily. There's no other explanation for 
this
> uncharacteristic behavior. (We never see the adult Snape doing
> nothing, and Teen!Snape seems to be very studious before the break-
up
> with Lily. given the walls full of books and his memorization of
> textbooks later, he seems to have resumed his studiousness by the 
time
> he became a teacher if not before, which makes this period in his 
life
> stand out from the rest.)


Annemehr:
That's a good point.  He is certainly not a lazy person.  The adult 
Snape we see is very erudite, and also watchful.  So this fly-zapping 
episode gains all the more significance for being so out of character.

Which brings me to Goddlefrood's point:

> Annemehr, earlier:
> ... he's just closed up in his room shooting down flies as
> though it were a distraction from what's really eating him.

Goddlefrood:

Why wouldn't he want Harry to know that he once sat in his
bedroom shooting flies? IMO, this was only a small part of
a larger memory. It could be conjectured that the young
Severus had just been told to stay away from that Evans
girl, leading him to go to his room to shoot flies in
order to release some of his frustaration over that. Not
something he would be proud of or particularly want Harry
to know about.

Annemehr:

Well, every episode of one's life has a larger context, and your 
conjecture is as good as any.

We know this is not one of the *worst* memories, because if it were, 
it would be in the pensieve.  But it *is,* as Carol points out, very 
much out of character, and I think it does show Snape in a moment of 
weakness, which he certainly would not want Harry to see.


Now, back to the conversation with Carol:
> 
> Annemehr, earlier:
> > This is one of a series of *bad* memories <snip>

> 
> Carol:
> I agree about the final slide into despair but not necessarily that
> Snape was evoking bad memories in Harry during the Occlumency 
lessons
> (remember his kiss with Cho, the memory that prompts Harry to take
> action?). I'm also not sure that the hexed broom incident qualifies 
as
> a bad memory (though Snape doesn't like having Harry see it--his 
love
> for Lily is his great secret). I think that the memories are random,
> mostly bad only because both Harry and Snape have mostly bad 
memories.
> 
> Carol, who thinks that the primary purpose of the memories is to
> arouse the reader's curiosity about Snape and add to his ambiguity
>

Annemehr:
Well...

The Cho memory was perhaps not bad exactly, but I would say it was 
certainly uncomfortable.  Really, his entire relationship with her 
was uncomfortable, except for a bit of their walk to Hogsmeade on 
Valentine's Day -- until Pansy ruined that.

Now that I am typing this though, I realise it would make the most 
sense to teach Occlumency by trying to evoke the memories the student 
would most like to keep *private*.  It would make sense that those 
would tend to be the bad ones (especially for Harry, who's only had 
one interlude of sexual activity).
 
They can't really just be random, though, or they would be so much 
more mundane.  And, if they're just significant memories, we'd see 
some happy ones too -- Harry does have plenty of those.

Annemehr





From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 16:12:10 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:12:10 -0000
Subject: Snape, Lupin, and teaching (WAS: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta...)
In-Reply-To: <gmthkn+p37g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmutcq+hruf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185762

> SSSusan:
> I guess I think of someone like Lupin here.  I know, I know -- it's 
> been argued by some that Lupin's method of teaching the Patronus 
> Charm wasn't all that explicit either (comparing to Snape's teaching 
> about Occlumency/Legilimency), but does anyone doubt that Lupin would 
> have done *whatever it took* for Harry to learn?  

Zara:
*raises hand*
It seemed to me that Lupin did not want to teach Harry about Dementors 
at all. It was only at Harry's insistence that he did so. 

> PoA:
> "You made that dementor on the train back off," said Harry suddenly.
>
>"There are -- certain defenses one can use," said Lupin. "But there 
was only one dementor on the train. The more there are, the more 
difficult it becomes to resist."

>"What defenses?" said Harry at once. "Can you teach me?"

>"I don't pretend to be an expert at fighting dementors, Harry, quite 
the contrary..."

>"But if the dementors come to another Quidditch match, I need to be 
able to fight them --"

>Lupin looked into Harry's determined face, hesitated, then 
said, "Well... all right. I'll try and help. But it'll have to wait 
until next term, I'm afraid. I have a lot to do before the holidays. I 
chose a very inconvenient time to fall ill."

Zara:
And once the lessons start, Lupin suggests that they need not continue.

> PoA:
> Lupin looked paler than usual. ,

>"Harry, if you don't want to continue, I will more than understand --"

>"I do!" said Harry fiercely, stuffing the rest of the Chocolate Frog 
into his mouth. "I've got to! What if the dementors turn up at our 
match against Ravenclaw? I can't afford to fall off again. If we lose 
this game we've lost the Quidditch Cup!"

Zara:
To be clear, I am not criticizing Lupin for this. I find his position 
reasonable. Harry wants to learn a difficult and advanced spell that is 
at the least NEWT standard, and the method of learning it is unpleasant 
and makes Harry relive the moments before the death of his mother. 
Harry's reasons are not of any earth shaking importance - they are 
about winning at Quidditch. I can see having doubts about whether 
Quidditch is worth it. But it was quite clear to me that the lessons 
were something Harry wanted very much for his own private reasons, and 
he talked Lupin into giving them against's Lupin's own better judgment. 
Lupin then proceeded to teach Harry, who made excellent effort and 
persisted despite emotional discomfort caused by the Boggart/Dementor.

Snape, on the other hand, had in Harry a student of Occlumency who was 
completely unwilling to learn, and put no effort into the classes. And 
while some part of that could be laid at Snape's door based on their 
past history together, I think it unfair to blame Snape entirely. Harry 
had reasons unrelated to Snape for not wanting to block out Voldemort. 
He did, as Snape accused, *want* to have the dreams, and acted 
accordingly. Snape persisted for a couple of months in the face of this 
opposition, presumably because he did recognize the importance of Harry 
learning this, even while Harry ignored not only Snape's (extensive) 
explanation of this, but also the urgings of Lupin, Sirius, Albus, and 
Hermione, all of whom Harry liked and respected.






From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 16:42:03 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:42:03 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmthkn+p37g@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmuv4r+gf7k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185763

> SSSusan:
> > > My long-argued position has been that, since Snape knew Harry was 
> > > potentially The Prophecy Boy, he really needed, if he was going 
> > > to be an effective teacher, to set aside his petty grievances and 
> > > his biases and his anger and resentment and MAKE SURE this kid 
> > > learned all that he was capable of, that he reached his full 
> > > potential.  It was, after all, *vital* that Propechy Boy be as 
> > > prepared as possible to face down Voldemort.
>  
> Montavilla47:
> > But didn't Snape do that?  The most objective measure we have of
> > Snape's methods are the results shown in the O.W.L.s.  Harry 
> > received an E, which is the second-highest mark possible.  
> 
> SSSusan:
> To the best of his ability?  I don't believe so, no.  A teacher who 
> insults and berates and belittles most often does not draw out the 
> best work from a student... and we know he didn't from Harry, who 
> tended to shut down and/or just get angry in return, rather than 
> saying, "Okay, I'm just gonna buckle down and SHOW this guy he's 
> wrong about me!"  Nope, Harry wasn't that kind of student, and if 
> Snape really wanted Harry to learn, he'd have known that.  He didn't 
> care, tho, imo.  

Montavilla47:
Well, didn't Harry actually do his (potentially) best work when Snape
was angriest with him?  The one time Harry thought he really got 
a potion right was after the SWM incident.  Of course, any teaching
value that had was erased by Snape's so unprofessional behavior
when the vial was broken (whether he broke it or whether it was
broken accidentally).

Also, it was Umbridge, the most sadistic teacher at Hogwarts,
who pushed Harry into leading the D.A., which really caused him
to excel at D.A.D.A.  While Binns (who ignored his students) 
completely failed to engage Harry, and Trelawney (who treated
her students as dramatic victims) turned Harry off to the subject.
Slughorn, who praised and groomed Harry as a "genius" didn't teach
him a darn thing about potions. although I suppose he did teach
Harry how to manipulate and exploit other people's feelings.

> SSSusan:
> And I'm also talking about Harry learning not just classroom stuff, 
> but life stuff beyond it.  The inability to stick with Occlumency, 
> the "oops" with the potion -- these are not the kinds of things 
> teachers who are determined for a student to learn do.  IMHO. :)

Montavilla47:
I'm not sure we can blame Snape entirely for Harrys failure to 
learn Occlumency.  He's definitely not patient with Harry, but 
it's clear to me that Snape is trying very hard in the lessons.  He
does acknowledge when Harry makes progress, and he answers
Harrry's questions.

I think it's probably a difficult discipline to teach, especially when
you're under pressure to do it as quickly as possible, in secret,
with someone you can't stand and desperately want to hide your
feelings from, and with the knowledge that the Voldemort can
"see"  through the eyes of whether he chooses--since he might
happen to notice that you're actually working for the other side
and decide to kill you for it.

Those are Snape's obstacles.  Harry's obstacles include hating
his teacher on general principle, being royally pissed off at 
Dumbledore (who mandated the lessons), having been warned
by his stepfather that the lessons are only really an excuse for
Snape to torment him (like the detentions with Dolores), intense
curiosity about the visions he's receiving from Voldemort, and
the nagging feeling that he's better off seeing them since they
helped save Arthur Weasley's life.

A simple letter of explanation from Dumbledore might have
helped Harry immensely in seeing the value of the lessons 
(something Lupin didn't need to do in PoA).  I'd say the person
who really let Harry down in the Occlumency lessons was
Dumbledore.

> Montavilla:
> > And, I'm not sure that Snape knew about Harry having to face
> > Voldemort.  Dumbledore tells Harry that the eavesdropper (Snape)
> > only heard the first part of the prophecy, which might not include
> > the bit about "either must die at the hand of the other."
> > 
> > For all Snape knew, Harry might have already fulfilled the prophecy.
> > When Dumbledore got Snape promise to protect Harry, there was
> > nothing about protecting him in order to face Voldemort in the 
> > future.
> 
> SSSusan:
> Yes, that's true that he didn't know the second half, but by the time 
> Harry had been at Hogwarts a couple of years, he definitely knew that 
> Harry was in danger from Voldemort, and that it was very serious 
> business.  

Montavilla47:
I'd say that the first time Snape knew Harry was in danger from Voldemort
was either at the end of PoA (after Wormtail disappeared) or GoF (when
he knows that Voldemort is back).

I'm not really sure that Snape knew that Voldemort was on the back of 
Quirrell's head until he went to meet Voldemort in GoF.  After DH, when
we realize that Dumbledore kept most things to himself, I'm not at all
confident that Dumbledore would have told him. (Fun little surprise for
Snape when Voldemort tells him he heard Snape threatening Quirrell!)

Nor am I sure that Dumbledore would have told Snape about the 
prophecy about Wormtail running to Voldemort.  Heck, I'm not sure 
he would have told him about Sirius being innocent.  

> SSSusan:
> I guess I think of someone like Lupin here.  I know, I know -- it's 
> been argued by some that Lupin's method of teaching the Patronus 
> Charm wasn't all that explicit either (comparing to Snape's teaching 
> about Occlumency/Legilimency), but does anyone doubt that Lupin would 
> have done *whatever it took* for Harry to learn?  He stuck with 
> Harry, he was patient, he was encouraging -- all the kinds of things 
> a kid learning something new & difficult needs to help him along.  
> This is what I mean about Snape not doing all he could have.  He 
> proved incapable of setting certain things aside so that he could be 
> & do those things. 


Montavilla47;
Yes, Lupin was a better teacher.  It's folly for me to even compare the
two.  

Although, I think part of Lupin's duties that year were to help protect
Harry--and he didn't do that to the best of his abilities.  Not nearly.
He was supposed to take his potion every month and he didn't.  He was
supposed to help guard the school from Sirius Black, and he neglected
to inform Dumbledore that Sirius Black might look like a big black dog
or that there were several tunnels leading onto the grounds of Hogwarts
that Sirius Black knew about.

So, Lupin was patient and encouraging.  These are very good things.
But he was too dependent on what people thought about him to do
the right thing.  Nobody's perfect.  

> SSSusan:
> This is not at all to downplay the important things he did teach, the 
> important things Harry learned from *or* because of Snape.  I'm just 
> talking about effective instruction and a *desire* to teach a 
> particular student.  Snape was a grudging teacher of Harry and on 
> occasion was an impediment to his learning, in my view, along with 
> those times he did teach okay.  Harry was to blame, too, but, having 
> been a teacher of teens, I will always put the higher burden on a 
> teacher to get the ball rolling and to play fair.

Montavilla47:
And you are right to put the higher burden on the teacher.  But if you
are going to condemn Snape not teaching Harry enough, I think it's 
only fair to point out that Snape actually taught Harry quite a bit.






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 16:48:10 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:48:10 -0000
Subject: Snape, Lupin, and teaching (WAS: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta...)
In-Reply-To: <gmutcq+hruf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmuvga+c3v6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185764

??	SSSusan:
> I guess I think of someone like Lupin here. I know, I know -- it's
> been argued by some that Lupin's method of teaching the Patronus
> Charm wasn't all that explicit either (comparing to Snape's teaching
> about Occlumency/Legilimency), but does anyone doubt that Lupin 
would
> have done *whatever it took* for Harry to learn?

Zara:
*raises hand*
It seemed to me that Lupin did not want to teach Harry about Dementors
at all. It was only at Harry's insistence that he did so.
??	<SNIPS CANON go UPTHREAD to read it>
<MORE SNIPPAGE of the argument>
But it was quite clear to me that the lessons
were something Harry wanted very much for his own private reasons, and
he talked Lupin into giving them against's Lupin's own better 
judgment.
Lupin then proceeded to teach Harry, who made excellent effort and
persisted despite emotional discomfort caused by the Boggart/Dementor.

Alla:

You said it yourself though, Harry wanted to learn for his own 
private reasons and while as series progress we see that this is a 
very good thing that he learned Patronus, it is not something that 
Lupin thought he would necessarily need.

I cannot speak for Susan of course, but it seems to me that she was 
arguing that Lupin would have done whatever it takes if he felt Harry 
truly needed it, be it Dumbledore who asked him or whatever the 
reason was that Lupin would have thought that to be important.

Zara:
Snape, on the other hand, had in Harry a student of Occlumency who was
completely unwilling to learn, and put no effort into the classes. And
while some part of that could be laid at Snape's door based on their
past history together, I think it unfair to blame Snape entirely. 
Harry
had reasons unrelated to Snape for not wanting to block out Voldemort.
He did, as Snape accused, *want* to have the dreams, and acted
accordingly. Snape persisted for a couple of months in the face of 
this
opposition, presumably because he did recognize the importance of 
Harry
learning this, even while Harry ignored not only Snape's (extensive)
explanation of this, but also the urgings of Lupin, Sirius, Albus, and
Hermione, all of whom Harry liked and respected.

Alla:

Um, I am NOT blaming Snape entirely, surely not after book 7. Harry 
absolutely wanted to have the dreams. But I do think that teacher 
like Lupin; somebody who Harry liked and respected would have been 
able to impress upon Harry the necessity to overcome that desire. 
We after all saw in PoA how much more Lupin??s words affect Harry than 
Snape??s (after Hogsmeade trip).

You said that Harry ignored warnings of the people he liked and 
respected, sure, he did, however, I think that with the hated teacher 
warnings only caused to worsen the situation.

Believe me, I DO blame Dumbledore for not teaching Harry himself, or 
assigning another teacher, boy I do. But I also blame Snape for five 
years of antagonizing Harry and for Harry??s mental state when he 
starts the lessons. I brought up those quotes more than once, I can 
do so again. And yes, I think Harry??s mental state before the lessons 
is *entirely* Snape??s fault.

JMO,

Alla





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Wed Feb 11 16:55:13 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:55:13 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmsf98+s1qt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmuvth+2u8e@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185765

> Alla:
> 
> That depends Pippin on what exact meaning you put in "Snape 
> consciously wanted him to fail". 

Pippin:
I meant that Snape did not consciously want  Harry to fail at potions.
 I agree that better teachers are more versatile. But versatility does
not seem to be required of any Hogwarts teachers. 

Alla:
 If  you mean that Snape wanted Harry to  succeed to the full of his 
potential, to be a  successful student instead of somebody who covers
 in fear when he sees Snape, then no, we cannot agree on that.

Pippin:
Can you please point me to an example of Harry cowering in fear when
he sees Snape? Aside from when Harry   is rule-breaking and
knows he will be punished, that is, or when he knows he is going to be
chewed out for poor work. He would be afraid of  any teacher in that
position. But even when he thinks Snape is trying to kill him, he's
never afraid of Snape on sight. 

I think we can agree McGonagall is a better teacher than Snape. But
even McGonagall doesn't seem to grasp the relationship between
Neville's lack of confidence and her teaching methods. I think that is
one of those truths that Dumbledore can't make people see. 

> Pippin:
> As Dumbledore says, he has no power to make men see the truth.
> Threatening Snape will not make Snape see Harry any differently.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, but it can make Snape **behave** differently towards Harry even 
> if his feelings remain the same.  I remain absolutely convinced that
Snape would vastly prefer being in Hogwarts to NOT being in Hogwarts, 
> IMO of course.

Pippin:

Definitely IYO ;) 

*My* Snape has placed himself at Dumbledore's disposal to lie, spy,
teach potions to dunderheads, protect the son of a man he hated, and
await the return of a man-monster who is just as merciless to his
followers as he is to his enemies. If, after ten or eleven years,
Dumbledore now feels he can protect Harry without Snape's help, why
would Snape be inclined to argue with him? On Dumbledore's head be it,
if Lily's son should die. 

What is Snape supposed to get out of being at Hogwarts? He tells Bella
he'd rather be there than in Azkaban. Hardly a ringing endorsement. He
could find another way to stay out of jail if he had to, IMO. Crabbe
and Goyle Sr managed after all. And they're not very bright. As for
getting another job, there are circles in which a negative reference
from Dumbledore is a plus.

My sense is that you see Dumbledore as operating in a sort of feudal
system, in which each person is supposed to protect those beneath, and
receive the protection of those above. If Snape is not doing a proper
job of protecting Harry, he should forfeit Dumbledore's protection
himself. Is that right?

But the way I see it, Dumbledore divides the world into the protected,
and those who are pledged to help him protect. Those who provide
protection to others do not expect to get it themselves. On the contrary.


> Alla:
> 
> Well, this does not earn Dumbledore any  brownie points with me and,
I find it irrelevant, since Snape does not humiliate any 
> overconfident person on that first lesson, he humiliates eleven year
 old who has very little clue about new world he arrived in. Not that
 I think again that had Harry had more confidence, he would have 
> deserved that humiliation.

Pippin:
Dumbledore reprimanded eleven year old orphan Tom  for cheek, made him
cower in fear, accused him of mischief against his fellows and forced
him to undergo a humiliating punishment -- and Tom knew even less
about the WW than Harry did. He hadn't even *started* his first day. 

There's no leniency for beginners. Once you accept enrollment at
Hogwarts, you are subject to its rules and policies. Period. 

I am not discussing here whether the Hogwarts educational philosophy
is a good one, just whether or not Snape is in compliance with it. 
As far as telling Snape he must punish Harry appropriately, IMO Snape
was doing that, given what Hogwarts defines as appropriate and 
Snape's limited perception of Harry's behavior. Taking two points is
hardly draconian. 

Dumbledore does interfere when he thinks Harry might be punished
excessively. He could tell Snape he is not to punish Harry at all,
certainly. But that's treating Harry like a pampered prince.


 
> Pippin:
> In any case, Harry's celebrity meant he could never be shielded from
> public mockery. By the time he had to face Rita Skeeter, Harry could
> take it in stride, unlike Hagrid who completely withdrew, or
Hermione, who embarked on a dangerous and ultimately senseless course
of  revenge.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Harry has Snape to thank for that as well? 
> 

Pippin:

Not intentionally, no. But Dumbledore certainly realized that Harry
would need to be prepared. JKR doesn't treat the matter of Harry's
fan/hate mail consistently -- but IMO we are supposed to grasp that
Dumbledore knows  the WW's tabloid culture doesn't go easy on kids
and that Harry is going to face mass hostility from  adults
who are being manipulated by his enemies. 

Harry had faced humiliations on the playground in the Muggle world,
but he was used to being ignored by  adults  in general. He could
cheek the Dursleys with impunity as long as he made his insults too
clever for them to work out.  But that didn't work with Snape. Nor
would it have worked with Rita. He was going to have to develop some
other coping strategies.

As for Hermione, there's no doubt her revenge made her feel better.
Viewed that way, it was a success. But if she hadn't taken Rita's
attacks personally, she wouldn't have felt bad in the first
place. Was it worth the risk of blackmail just for that? Hermione
herself didn't think so. 

Her stated aim was to see if she could teach Rita not to tell horrible
lies. That didn't work. OTOH, she did keep Rita from exposing the
Ministry's cover-up of Voldemort's return until it was well
established. Oops. 

Amending Hermione's mistake gave  Rita  the biggest story of her
career so far. Of course she'd rather have been paid for it -- but 
her supposed "in" with Harry Potter paid off when it came time to sell
"The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore" so it looks like she came out
even.

Hermione got her story-book revenge, but one of the themes of canon,
IMO, is that what works in story-books does not work so well in the
real world, even a fictional one. 

Pippin








From bonsaikathy at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 14:43:30 2009
From: bonsaikathy at gmail.com (ac4lb)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:43:30 -0000
Subject: question about crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <gmpq2l+t8b3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmuo6i+43b8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185766

I know this is off the regular topic being discussed at present but I
have a question. In POA what is the relationship between Crookshanks
and Sirius Black in his dog form? Did I miss information in the book
that explained that somewhere? Crookshanks and Sirius are always
looking for scabbers but then Harry sees them walking together on the
castle grounds one night. Anyone have any clue if there's something
about Scabbers I missed?

Kathy




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 17:24:44 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:24:44 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmuvth+2u8e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmv1ks+oe3c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185767

Alla:
> If you mean that Snape wanted Harry to succeed to the full of his 
> potential, to be a successful student instead of somebody who covers
>  in fear when he sees Snape, then no, we cannot agree on that.
> 
> Pippin:
> Can you please point me to an example of Harry cowering in fear when
> he sees Snape? <SNIP>

Alla:

No, but I believe that Snape's bullying was to produce that effect, 
that this is something Snape would have dearly liked to see. Again, 
IMO.

Pippin:
Aside from when Harry   is rule-breaking and
> knows he will be punished, that is, or when he knows he is going to 
be
> chewed out for poor work. He would be afraid of  any teacher in that
> position. But even when he thinks Snape is trying to kill him, he's
> never afraid of Snape on sight. 

Alla:

It did not feel to me that Harry was feeling very brave when he was 
going to Snape for Occlumency lessons and he did not break any rules 
yet. I think this was a cumulative effect of all previous five years.

Pippin:
> I think we can agree McGonagall is a better teacher than Snape. But
> even McGonagall doesn't seem to grasp the relationship between
> Neville's lack of confidence and her teaching methods. I think that 
is
> one of those truths that Dumbledore can't make people see. 

Alla:

Yes, Mcgonagall is centuries ahead than Snape to me in that 
department, she is flexible enough to change her opinion of Neville, 
contrary to Snape's opinion about Harry.
 
> Pippin:
> 
> Definitely IYO ;) 
> 
> *My* Snape has placed himself at Dumbledore's disposal to lie, spy,
> teach potions to dunderheads, protect the son of a man he hated, and
> await the return of a man-monster who is just as merciless to his
> followers as he is to his enemies. If, after ten or eleven years,
> Dumbledore now feels he can protect Harry without Snape's help, why
> would Snape be inclined to argue with him? On Dumbledore's head be 
it,
> if Lily's son should die. 

Alla:

LOL. You seriously think that Snape would have wanted to be in 
Azkaban?

I would think he would not have lasted very long there, but of course 
just speculating.

Pippin: 
> What is Snape supposed to get out of being at Hogwarts? He tells 
Bella
> he'd rather be there than in Azkaban. Hardly a ringing endorsement.

Alla:

Exactly, rather here than in Azkaban, with dementors.

Pippin:
>He
> could find another way to stay out of jail if he had to, IMO. Crabbe
> and Goyle Sr managed after all. And they're not very bright. As for
> getting another job, there are circles in which a negative reference
> from Dumbledore is a plus.

Alla:

Which way that would be?

Pippin:
> My sense is that you see Dumbledore as operating in a sort of feudal
> system, in which each person is supposed to protect those beneath, 
and
> receive the protection of those above. If Snape is not doing a 
proper
> job of protecting Harry, he should forfeit Dumbledore's protection
> himself. Is that right?

Alla:

Not quite, only because Dumbledore wears too many hats IMO. I see 
Dumbledore as Headmaster of the school who should fire teacher who 
IMO abuses his authority over the students (some students), but of 
course since Dumbledore also a leader of Order of Phoenix, we have 
all that additional stuff.

Pippin: 
> But the way I see it, Dumbledore divides the world into the 
protected,
> and those who are pledged to help him protect. Those who provide
> protection to others do not expect to get it themselves. On the 
contrary.

Alla:

Too bad that he does not think that way of teachers and students then 
IMO.
 
> Pippin:
> Dumbledore reprimanded eleven year old orphan Tom  for cheek, made 
him
> cower in fear, accused him of mischief against his fellows and 
forced
> him to undergo a humiliating punishment -- and Tom knew even less
> about the WW than Harry did. He hadn't even *started* his first 
day. <SNIP>

Alla:

And we all know how well Tom turned out of course. Again, no brownies 
for Dumbledore from me I am afraid.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
> I am not discussing here whether the Hogwarts educational philosophy
> is a good one, just whether or not Snape is in compliance with it. 
> As far as telling Snape he must punish Harry appropriately, IMO 
Snape
> was doing that, given what Hogwarts defines as appropriate and 
> Snape's limited perception of Harry's behavior. Taking two points is
> hardly draconian. 

Alla:

I think Hogwarts' philosophy can use **plenty** of improvement, but 
till I see another teacher hating student on sight because that 
teacher has a history with student's parents (my interpretation of 
course), I think I will disagree that Snape is in compliance with it.

We see Minerva, we see Lupin, we see Flitwick. Why measure Hogwarts 
by Binns and Trelawney? I do not think Snape's attitudes are nowhere 
near the best teachers.

 
>> Pippin:
> 
> Not intentionally, no. But Dumbledore certainly realized that Harry
> would need to be prepared. JKR doesn't treat the matter of Harry's
> fan/hate mail consistently -- but IMO we are supposed to grasp that
> Dumbledore knows  the WW's tabloid culture doesn't go easy on kids
> and that Harry is going to face mass hostility from  adults
> who are being manipulated by his enemies. <SNIP>

Alla:

My opinion that it is a big stretch that Snape's bullying was 
designed to prepare Harry to deal with his fans, I will leave it at 
that.

Montavilla47:
<HUGE SNIP>
A simple letter of explanation from Dumbledore might have
helped Harry immensely in seeing the value of the lessons
(something Lupin didn't need to do in PoA). I'd say the person
who really let Harry down in the Occlumency lessons was
Dumbledore. <SNIP>

Alla:

I think it is a perfect solution actually, if Dumbledore was so 
afraid of coming face to face with Harry, just writes him a freaking 
letter, for goodness sake. So no argument from me, Dumbledore did let 
Harry down big time IMO. However, I am not willing to let Snape off 
the hook either.

JMO,

Alla





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 18:24:30 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:24:30 -0000
Subject: question about crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <gmuo6i+43b8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmv54u+e3us@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185768

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ac4lb" <bonsaikathy at ...> wrote:
>
> I know this is off the regular topic being discussed at present but I
> have a question. In POA what is the relationship between Crookshanks
> and Sirius Black in his dog form? Did I miss information in the book
> that explained that somewhere? Crookshanks and Sirius are always
> looking for scabbers but then Harry sees them walking together on the
> castle grounds one night. Anyone have any clue if there's something
> about Scabbers I missed?
> 
> Kathy

Montavilla47:

Crookshanks was aiding Sirius--although there's no particular
reason why he should.  Crookshanks starts harassing Scabbers
from the moment they meet--at the pet shop where Ron is 
getting advice.

So, perhaps it was a mutual antipathy towards Scabbers that
Crookshanks and Padfoot bond over.  

In addition to chasing Scabbers, Crookshanks aids Sirius by
bringing him the list of passwords, and by delivering the order
for the Firebolt broomstick.

My interpretation of the role Crookshanks plays is that he's 
helping Sirius because he senses Scabbers's guilt and Sirius's
good intentions.  It went right to the edge of believability and
there were a good number of theories floating around about
Crookshanks actually being an animagus (Lily?) or somehow 
embodying a protective spirit looking over Harry (again, Lily,
since James's protective spirit was embodied in the Stag).

But, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes a 
half-kneazle cat is just a half-kneazle cat (although, 
canonically, Crookshanks is just a funny-looking cat).  After
PoA, Crookshanks did nothing noteworthy.  Along with
Pigwidgeon (and Arnold), he disappeared without 
explanation in DH.

Hmm.  Pigwidgeon might have come in handy in DH
had he been around.  Ron could have sent a note to 
Harry and Hermione explaining what happened to him
and asking to meet up. But, that wouldn't have been 
nearly so dramatic.







From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 11 18:36:35 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:36:35 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmuvth+2u8e@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmv5rj+qkf8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185769

Pippin:
> As for Hermione, there's no doubt her revenge made her feel better.
> Viewed that way, it was a success. But if she hadn't taken Rita's
> attacks personally, she wouldn't have felt bad in the first
> place. Was it worth the risk of blackmail just for that? Hermione
> herself didn't think so. 

Magpie:
Hermione didn't take Rita's attacks personally. She laughed them off. 
It was only when Rita's attacks caused actual problems for Hermione 
even cared. Then she did something about it very efficiently. 

Pippin: 
> Her stated aim was to see if she could teach Rita not to tell 
horrible
> lies. That didn't work. OTOH, she did keep Rita from exposing the
> Ministry's cover-up of Voldemort's return until it was well
> established. Oops. 

Magpie:
I can't just assume Rita would have been a big help (by her own 
choice) for the only time in the whole series if only Hermione hadn't 
been muzzling her. Just because Rita wrote snide remarks about Arthur 
in GoF doesn't mean she wouldn't have been happily leading the pack 
writing about attention-seeking Harry in OotP. Hermione kept Rita 
from writing as long as she wanted, and then *ordered* her to break 
the story of Voldemort's return. Which she could do because her 
blackmail scheme had given her power over Rita. She even gave Rita a 
venue where she could do it. Hermione didn't just make herself feel 
better, she won them the most powerful weapons the Trio ever had 
throughout the series. I don't remember anyone in canon ever 
regretting Hermione's treatment of Rita or thinking for a second 
they'd contributed to the "crazy Harry" story in OotP by it. 

Pippin: 
> Amending Hermione's mistake gave  Rita  the biggest story of her
> career so far. Of course she'd rather have been paid for it -- but 
> her supposed "in" with Harry Potter paid off when it came time to 
sell
> "The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore" so it looks like she came 
out
> even.

Magpie:
She didn't amend Hermione's mistake, she wrote a good story that 
helped the Trio on Hermione's orders which she probably wouldn't have 
done otherwise. I think Hermione would agree that it was a good trade 
if it gave Rita's career some help. Rita's book about Dumbledore 
didn't particularly interfere with her plans (and Rita already had 
clout as a writer). All in all Hermione gained a lot more from her 
eventual reaction to Rita's articles about her than she lost. And all 
while dealing with public attacks far more dispassionately than Harry 
did that sort of thing, which was the original point. 

Pippin: 
> Hermione got her story-book revenge, but one of the themes of canon,
> IMO, is that what works in story-books does not work so well in the
> real world, even a fictional one. 

Magpie:
I have never seen that as being a theme of canon at all. How does 
something working out well within the fictional world translate into 
a warning that this sort of thing doesn't work out well in that same 
fictional world? Storybook revenge is just fine plenty of times in 
these books. 

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 19:07:48 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:07:48 -0000
Subject: Snape, Lupin, and teaching (WAS: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta...)
In-Reply-To: <gmuvga+c3v6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmv7m4+g6gv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185770

Alla wrote:

<snip> I think Harry??s mental state before the lessons is *entirely*
Snape??s fault.

Carol responds:
Harry's mental state before the lessons is complex. He's confused
about the visions he's been having, he's resentful of Dumbledore for
avoiding him, he's angry all the time. His impulse to attack
Dumbledore and his confusion of himself with Nagini cause him to
think, at least till Ginny straightens him out, that he's being
possessed by Voldemort. And then there are all the factrs that others
have mentioned--the mutual antagonism between him and Snape and
Harry's unwillingness to practice Occlumency because he wants to
continue to have the dreams. Moreover, Harry's suspicions of Snape
have been aroused by Sirius Black's unjustified insinuations about
Snape using the sessions to torment Harry. (He would have done better
to keep his mouth shut or to emphasize the importance of learning
Occlumency.)

To say that Harry's mental state before the lessons is "entirely"
Snape's fault is, I think, to ignore the many pressures that Harry was
under that year. One of the lessons (I don't recall whether it was the
first) occurs just after a fight with Cho, not exactly conducive to
concentration on Harry's part.

Later, when Harry sees the vision of the MoM corridor, Snape becomes
angry but evidently is under orders from Dumbledore not to explain
*why* DD doesn't want him to have that dream. Harry sees the anger but
doesn't understand its significance. (IIRC, the lesson is interrupted
at this point by Trelawney's scream, so even if Snape was about to
explain why Harry should not have that dream, he missed his
opportunity to communicate that information. (JKR does that a lot. I
could give many other examples, including Harry deciding not to talk
to Lupin about the "Grim" that he keeps seeing.)

As always, mutual misunderstanding and incomplete communication work
against Harry's and Snape's being an effective team, and Dumbledore's
silence (regardless of this motives, which I think are understandable)
complicates the picture.

Carol, admitting that Snape's attitude does nothing to encourage
Harry's trust in him but thinks that the situation is much more complex




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 19:36:49 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:36:49 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmv1ks+oe3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmv9ch+tgs9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185771

Alla wrote:
> 
> LOL. You seriously think that Snape would have wanted to be in  Azkaban?
> 
> I would think he would not have lasted very long there, but of
course just speculating.

Carol responds:
I know that you were addressing Pippin, but I just want to react here.
It seems to me that Snape was in no danger of being sent to Azkaban.
Many people, including Order member Sirius Black, never knew that he
had been a Death Eater. (McGonagall appears to have found out when
Snape showed his Dark Mark to Fudge.) Barty Crouch Sr. accepted
Dumbledore's version of events--Snape had been a Death Eater but was
now risking his life spying for the good side. The Wizengamot seems
not to have made Snape's past public for obvious reasons. Rita Skeeter
seems not to have been present at Karkaroff's hearing (in contrast to
Ludo Bagman's). If she knew about Snape's past, she would certainly
have listed him along with paranoid ex-Auror Moody and werewolf Remus
Lupin as among Dumbledore's questionable hiring choices.

Granted, Snape tells Bellatrix that Dumbledore's protection has kept
him out of Azkaban all these years, but that's not quite the truth.
He's no longer on their wanted list, having long ago been cleared of
all charges. He wants her to think that he's in roughly the same
position as Lucius Malfoy and others who claimed that they were under
the Imperious Curse to stay out of prison but remained loyal to
Voldemort. Obviously, Snape's real position is very different, and he
has been risking his life pretending to be loyal to Voldemort but
really working for Dumbledore. (Bella suspects that he's Dumbledore's
man and she's right; he's trying to undo her suspicions by answering
her questions as he had already answered Voldemort's.)

That aside, we know that Barty Crouch Jr. would have died in Azkaban
had his mother not taken his place and died for him, but Wnape is no
Barty Jr. We also know that Sirius Black survived Azkaban and retained
most of his sanity in part by clinging to the idea of his innocence
but mostly through his ability to transform into a dog and escape the
Dementor-induced depression through the dog's less acute mental state.
Snape, too, had a skill that would have enabled him to survive Azkaban
without going insane, his exceptional ability as an Occlumens. If he
can conceal secrets from Voldemort, he can certainly block the Dementors.

Carol, responding only to this one point for the sake of simplicity







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 19:51:27 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:51:27 -0000
Subject: question about crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <gmv54u+e3us@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmva7v+rcsc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185772

bonsaikathy wrote:
> >
> > I know this is off the regular topic being discussed at present
but I have a question. In POA what is the relationship between
Crookshanks and Sirius Black in his dog form? <snip>
> 
Montavilla47 responded:
> 
> Crookshanks was aiding Sirius--although there's no particular reason
why he should.  Crookshanks starts harassing Scabbers from the moment
they meet--at the pet shop where Ron is getting advice.
> 
> So, perhaps it was a mutual antipathy towards Scabbers that
Crookshanks and Padfoot bond over.  
> 
> In addition to chasing Scabbers, Crookshanks aids Sirius by bringing
him the list of passwords, and by delivering the order for the
Firebolt broomstick.
> 
> My interpretation of the role Crookshanks plays is that he's 
helping Sirius because he senses Scabbers's guilt and Sirius's good
intentions.  <snip>

Carol responds:
Sirius Black also tells Harry that Crookshanks is "the most
intelligent of his kind" that he's encountered. Since, as Montavilla
points out, Sirius must be communicating with him in some complex way.
I thought at first that he would do so as Padfoot, but it appears that
Crookshanks (like Filch's cat, Mrs. Norris, and Mrs. Figg's cats)
understands human language.

I suspect that Crookshanks immediately sensed something wrong with
Scabbers, either that he was an Animagus or that he was evil or both.
It certainly wasn't just the normal "cats eat rats" reaction since the
rope-skipping black rats don't produce the same reaction. Quite
possibly, Crookshanks had a similar initial reaction to Padfoot, but
once Sirius, in human form, started talking to him and befriending
him, explaining who and what Scabbers was (a bad Animagus or a Dark
Wizard Animagus), Crookshanks was probably happy to work for him,
especially since he'd already sensed that Scabbers was bad. (We see
the same thing with the Sneakoscope that goes off in Scabbers'
presence--though, of course, Ron always attributes its behavior to the
wrong cause.)

Carol, as always unsure of just how much of this backstory JKR worked
out for herself




From bonsaikathy at gmail.com  Wed Feb 11 20:30:00 2009
From: bonsaikathy at gmail.com (ac4lb)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:30:00 -0000
Subject: question about crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <gmva7v+rcsc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmvcg8+r1re@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185773

Carol, 
I'll wholly agree about her working out the backstory as some seemed to 
never go anywhere and some questions never seemed to really be answered.

Kathy




From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 00:29:16 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 00:29:16 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmuv4r+gf7k@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmvqgs+jij7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185774

> Montavilla47:
>snip>
 I think it's probably a difficult discipline to teach, especially 
when
> you're under pressure to do it as quickly as possible, in secret,
> with someone you can't stand and desperately want to hide your
> feelings from, and with the knowledge that the Voldemort can
> "see"  through the eyes of whether he chooses--since he might
> happen to notice that you're actually working for the other side
> and decide to kill you for it.
> 
> Those are Snape's obstacles.  Harry's obstacles include hating
> his teacher on general principle, being royally pissed off at 
> Dumbledore (who mandated the lessons), having been warned
> by his stepfather that the lessons are only really an excuse for
> Snape to torment him (like the detentions with Dolores), intense
> curiosity about the visions he's receiving from Voldemort, and
> the nagging feeling that he's better off seeing them since they
> helped save Arthur Weasley's life.

jkoney:
I don't remember the part where Voldemort can "see" through Harry's 
eyes or even read his mind. It seemed to me that he was able to plant 
a thought/vision in Harry's head. If I'm remembering wrong please let 
me know where Voldemort see's through Harry's eyes. The MoM is the 
only scene I can think of that comes close to this and that seemed to 
require that they were close together.

In DH it appears that Harry can see through Voldemort's eyes but I 
don't remember it happening the other way around.

I do blame Snape for not being able to adjust his teaching style. If 
a student isn't progressing with the first way you are teaching there 
must be another way to get the point across so they can learn.

Harry's learning style seems completely opposite to the way Snape 
teaches. He eventually learns to block Voldemort out doing the exact 
opposite of what Snape tells him. His way of handling dementors also 
is different.

 
>>> Montavilla47:
> And you are right to put the higher burden on the teacher.  But if 
you
> are going to condemn Snape not teaching Harry enough, I think it's 
> only fair to point out that Snape actually taught Harry quite a bit.

jkoney:
I'm not sure what Snape actually taught him other that you were going 
to have deal with assholes in your life. I think Hermione and her 
revision schedule helped Harry out more in potions than Snape ever 
did as a teacher.






From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 00:29:59 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 00:29:59 -0000
Subject: question about crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <gmva7v+rcsc@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmvqi7+iojj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185775

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> Since, as Montavilla points out, Sirius must be communicating 
> with him in some complex way, I thought at first that he 
> would do so as Padfoot, but it appears that Crookshanks (like 
> Filch's cat, Mrs. Norris, and Mrs. Figg's cats) understands 
> human language.


zanooda:

Crookshanks may understand human language, but does Sirius understand
cat language :-)? Sirius says that Crookshanks "told" him about Peter
leaving blood stains on Ron's sheet. I think your first assumption was
correct and Sirius communicated with Crookshanks  in animal form (is
there some kind of animal language? Snakes have theirs, after all :-).


> Carol wrote:
 
> I suspect that Crookshanks immediately sensed something wrong with
> Scabbers, either that he was an Animagus or that he was evil 
> or both.


zanooda:

Crookshanks knew Scabbers was not a rat. Sirius said that "he (the
cat) recognized Peter for what he was straight away". I suppose
Crookshanks later "told" Sirius about it :-).


> Carol wrote:

> Quite possibly, Crookshanks had a similar initial reaction to 
> Padfoot


zanooda:

This is possible, yes, because again, Sirius says that Crookshanks
knew at once that he (Sirius) was no dog, and that it took some time
to gain his trust. Although a cat would be mistrustful of any dog,
real or Animagus, IMO :-).






From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 00:36:08 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 00:36:08 -0000
Subject: Snape, Lupin, and teaching (WAS: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta...)
In-Reply-To: <gmv7m4+g6gv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmvqto+dcfn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185776

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Alla wrote:
> 
> <snip> I think Harry??s mental state before the lessons is 
*entirely*
> Snape??s fault.
> 
> Carol responds:
> Harry's mental state before the lessons is complex. He's confused
> about the visions he's been having, he's resentful of Dumbledore for
> avoiding him, he's angry all the time. His impulse to attack
> Dumbledore and his confusion of himself with Nagini cause him to
> think, at least till Ginny straightens him out, that he's being
> possessed by Voldemort. And then there are all the factrs that 
others
> have mentioned--the mutual antagonism between him and Snape and
> Harry's unwillingness to practice Occlumency because he wants to
> continue to have the dreams. Moreover, Harry's suspicions of Snape
> have been aroused by Sirius Black's unjustified insinuations about
> Snape using the sessions to torment Harry. (He would have done 
better
> to keep his mouth shut or to emphasize the importance of learning
> Occlumency.)
> 
> To say that Harry's mental state before the lessons is "entirely"
> Snape's fault is, I think, to ignore the many pressures that Harry 
was
> under that year. 

jkoney:
I think Alla was referring to Harry's mental state towards Snape. Not 
all of the other things going on in his life.

All Harry knows is that he has to spend extra time with a teacher who 
started off day one bullying him and hasn't let up. Starting with the 
first class and including reading newspaper clippings in class about 
him and all the way through calling the private lessons Remedial 
potions and letting other people know thats what they are doing. 
While it may have been a good cover, it was still a cheap shot by a 
professor that allowed him to embarrass Harry.




One of the lessons (I don't recall whether it was the
> first) occurs just after a fight with Cho, not exactly conducive to
> concentration on Harry's part.
> 
> Later, when Harry sees the vision of the MoM corridor, Snape becomes
> angry but evidently is under orders from Dumbledore not to explain
> *why* DD doesn't want him to have that dream. Harry sees the anger 
but
> doesn't understand its significance. (IIRC, the lesson is 
interrupted
> at this point by Trelawney's scream, so even if Snape was about to
> explain why Harry should not have that dream, he missed his
> opportunity to communicate that information. (JKR does that a lot. I
> could give many other examples, including Harry deciding not to talk
> to Lupin about the "Grim" that he keeps seeing.)
> 
> As always, mutual misunderstanding and incomplete communication work
> against Harry's and Snape's being an effective team, and 
Dumbledore's
> silence (regardless of this motives, which I think are 
understandable)
> complicates the picture.
> 
> Carol, admitting that Snape's attitude does nothing to encourage
> Harry's trust in him but thinks that the situation is much more 
complex
>





From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 01:15:43 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 01:15:43 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmvqgs+jij7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmvt7v+s3gj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185777

> jkoney:
> I don't remember the part where Voldemort can "see" through Harry's 
> eyes or even read his mind. It seemed to me that he was able to 
plant 
> a thought/vision in Harry's head. If I'm remembering wrong please 
let 
> me know where Voldemort see's through Harry's eyes. The MoM is the 
> only scene I can think of that comes close to this and that seemed 
to 
> require that they were close together.

Zara:
Here you go.

> OotP:
> 'More recently,' said Dumbledore, 'I became concerned that 
Voldemort might realise that this connection between you exists. Sure 
enough, there came a time when you entered so far into his mind and 
thoughts that he sensed your presence. I am speaking, of course, of 
the night when you witnessed the attack on Mr Weasley'

> 'Yeah, Snape told me,' Harry muttered.

> 'Professor Snape, Harry' Dumbledore corrected him quietly. 'But did 
you not wonder why it was not I who explained this to you? Why I did 
not teach you Occlumency? Why I had not so much as looked at you for 
months?'

> Harry looked up. He could see now that Dumbledore looked sad and 
tired.

> 'Yeah,' Harry mumbled. 'Yeah, I wondered.'

> 'You see,' Dumbledore continued, 'I believed it could not be long 
before Voldemort attempted to force his way into your mind, to 
manipulate and misdirect your thoughts, and I was not eager to give 
him more incentives to do so. I was sure that if he realised that our 
relationship was - or had ever been - closer than that of headmaster 
and pupil, he would seize his chance to use you as a means to spy on 
me. I feared the uses to which he would put you, the possibility that 
he might try and possess you. Harry, I believe I was right to think 
that Voldemort would have made use of you in such a way. On those 
rare occasions when we had close con-tact, I thought I saw a shadow 
of him stir behind your eyes . . .'

> Harry remembered the feeling that a dormant snake had risen in him, 
ready to strike, in those moments when he and Dumbledore had made eye-
contact.

> 'Voldemort's aim in possessing you, as he demonstrated tonight, 
would not have been my destruction. It would have been yours. He 
hoped, when he possessed you briefly a short while ago, that I would 
sacrifice you in the hope of killing him. So you see, I have been 
trying, in distancing myself from you, to protect you, Harry. An old 
man s mistake . . ."

> He sighed deeply. Harry was letting the words wash over him. He 
would have been so interested to know all this a few months ago, but 
now it was meaningless compared to the gaping chasm inside him that 
was the loss of Sirius; none of it mattered . . .

> 'Sirius told me you felt Voldemort awake inside you the very night 
that you had the vision of Arthur Weasley's attack. I knew at once 
that my worst fears were correct: Voldemort had realised he could use 
you. In an attempt to arm you against Voldemort s assaults on your 
mind, I arranged Occlumency lessons with Professor Snape.'





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 01:52:18 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 01:52:18 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmvqgs+jij7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gmvvci+cr1m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185778

> > Montavilla47:
> >snip>
>  I think it's probably a difficult discipline to teach, especially 
> when
> > you're under pressure to do it as quickly as possible, in secret,
> > with someone you can't stand and desperately want to hide your
> > feelings from, and with the knowledge that the Voldemort can
> > "see"  through the eyes of whether he chooses--since he might
> > happen to notice that you're actually working for the other side
> > and decide to kill you for it.
> > 
> > Those are Snape's obstacles.  Harry's obstacles include hating
> > his teacher on general principle, being royally pissed off at 
> > Dumbledore (who mandated the lessons), having been warned
> > by his stepfather that the lessons are only really an excuse for
> > Snape to torment him (like the detentions with Dolores), intense
> > curiosity about the visions he's receiving from Voldemort, and
> > the nagging feeling that he's better off seeing them since they
> > helped save Arthur Weasley's life.
> 
> jkoney:
> I don't remember the part where Voldemort can "see" through Harry's 
> eyes or even read his mind. It seemed to me that he was able to plant 
> a thought/vision in Harry's head. If I'm remembering wrong please let 
> me know where Voldemort see's through Harry's eyes. The MoM is the 
> only scene I can think of that comes close to this and that seemed to 
> require that they were close together.


Montavilla47:
I'm not sure that he can, but I'm not sure that he can't either.  I 
thought that was what was going on in that scene when Dumbledore
sent Harry and the Weasley kids to 12 Grimauld Place.   Harry feels
something going on when he looks at Dumbledore--and I took that
to mean Voldemort was "seeing" through him.

Dumbledore is really vague about he fears might be going on 
with Harry--he mentions possession, but in way that sounds like
there might be something else going on as well.  At the time
he assigns Snape to teach Harry, all that Harry's told him about
is his vision of Arthur being attacked.  Dumbledore also knows,
because Sirius told him in GoF, that Harry saw Frank Bryce being
murdered.

But he isn't concerned about Harry's visions until that moment
when Harry feels the strange surge of rage at Dumbledore.  It's
after that (and perhaps after receiving additional intelligence 
from Snape) that Dumbledore orders the lessons.

So, what has changed?  I doubt that Voldemort shared his plans
to send visions to Harry with Snape.  If the connection was only
one-way, it would hardly matter whether Voldemort knew about 
it.  If he employed Occlumency against Harry, no foul.  If he 
didn't, Harry's glimpses would only serve to annoy Voldemort and
help Dumbledore's side.

As for the proximity in the MoM, the connection seems to be
stronger when Voldemort and Harry are close.  Voldemort is 
able to actually possess (or something) Harry.  But, of course,
at that point he realizes that Harry is too full of love cooties
and decides to protect himself.  (I sort of imagine Harry 
being like one of those creatures that emits poison when 
bitten by a larger animal so that they get spit out.)  But if 
Harry is able to see through Voldemort's eyes at a distance,
why would distance be a factor in the connection working
in the opposite direction?

So, while no one ever came out and said that Voldemort
would be able to reverse the Legilimency connection between
himself and Harry, one would need to consider that as a 
strong possibility--considering that Voldemort was  such 
a great Legilimens.  

jkoney:
> Harry's learning style seems completely opposite to the way Snape 
> teaches. He eventually learns to block Voldemort out doing the exact 
> opposite of what Snape tells him. His way of handling dementors also 
> is different.

Montavilla47:
You're mixing up two different things here.  Learning styles vs. teaching
style is different from Harry's way of blocking Voldemort vs. Snape's 
method.  Also, Snape didn't insist on Harry using on method to block
Voldemort's mind-probes.  In fact, Harry was annoyed because Snape 
didn't tell him exactly how to block Legilimency at first--which argues
that Snape was aware that there were different ways to Occlude and
was willing to let Harry find the method that worked best *for Harry.*

In the Dementor lessons, Lupin employs only a single strategy for
repelling the Dementors: using a Boggart to replicate the Dementor
experience and having Harry try to cast a patronus.  As someone 
pointed out upthread, when Harry encounters difficulties, Lupin 
doesn't try a different strategy.  He suggests that Harry give up.

Now, maybe Snape should have tried using Lupin's trick.  Instead
of continuing to tutor the unwilling Harry, he should have suggested
that it was too difficult, given Harry some chocolate, and told him
to give it up.

That would be employing a different teaching style.  But, as your
point that Harry's learning style is unsuited to Snape's style, I'm 
not so sure about that.  At least, Harry really does seem to learn
more from Snape than he did from Slughorn, who heaped 
Harry with praise and encouragement.  And he gets the same
mark in Snape's subject that he gets in subjects taught by nicer
teachers, such as McGonagall, Flitwick, and Sprout.


> >>> Montavilla47:
> > And you are right to put the higher burden on the teacher.  But if 
> you
> > are going to condemn Snape not teaching Harry enough, I think it's 
> > only fair to point out that Snape actually taught Harry quite a bit.
> 
> jkoney:
> I'm not sure what Snape actually taught him other that you were going 
> to have deal with assholes in your life. I think Hermione and her 
> revision schedule helped Harry out more in potions than Snape ever 
> did as a teacher.

Montavilla47:
If you're going to give Hermione the credit for Harry's success, then
you're basically admitting that Harry needs someone riding his butt in 
order to excel.  On his own, Harry (and Ron) don't study, treat their
assignments as jokes, and end up failing their course.








From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 03:10:52 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 03:10:52 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmvvci+cr1m@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn03vs+hnmj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185779

> montavilla47:
> So, while no one ever came out and said that Voldemort
> would be able to reverse the Legilimency connection between
> himself and Harry, one would need to consider that as a 
> strong possibility--considering that Voldemort was  such 
> a great Legilimens.  

Zara:
Albus did come out and say it. He tells Harry he did not teach himn 
Occlumency himself, in order not to tempt Voldemort. Albus feared 
Voldemort would use Harry to spy on him.

I quoted a long segment of the conversation in which he explains this 
(end of OotP) in a response to jkoney's question in this post:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185777

> Montavilla47:
> Now, maybe Snape should have tried using Lupin's trick.  Instead
> of continuing to tutor the unwilling Harry, he should have suggested
> that it was too difficult, given Harry some chocolate, and told him
> to give it up.

Zara:
I think Lupin's "trick" only worked because Harry wanted to learn the 
specific skill he wheedled Lupin into teaching him. This was clearly 
not the case with Occlumency.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 03:23:51 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 03:23:51 -0000
Subject: Occlumency WAS :First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn03vs+hnmj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn04o7+cmsn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185780

> Zara:
<BIG SNIP>
> I think Lupin's "trick" only worked because Harry wanted to learn the 
> specific skill he wheedled Lupin into teaching him. This was clearly 
> not the case with Occlumency.
>


Alla:

Could you please clarify? Are you suggesting that no teacher was able 
to teach Harry something that Harry was not willing to learn? That no 
teacher was able to overcome Harry's unwillingness to learn?

I mean, Harry did not want to learn Occlumency much. What I am saying 
is that Snape contributed enormously to that unwillingness and somebody 
more capable and more able to adjust to Harry's learning style would be 
able to overcome that. 

JMO,

Alla




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Feb 12 16:47:08 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:47:08 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmv1ks+oe3c@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn1jqc+pkvm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185781

 
> Alla:
> 
> No, but I believe that Snape's bullying was to produce that effect, 
> that this is something Snape would have dearly liked to see. Again, 
> IMO.
> 

Pippin:
Since it never happens, we can't know that. You are telling me your
issue is with Snape's behavior, and I believe that, but  Snape's
intentions and desires are not behavior, IMO. And as they can't be
measured, how is Dumbledore to know whether Snape has changed them or not?

Dumbledore could certainly order Snape to act as if he liked Harry.
But I really do not see how that would help.

> Alla:
> 
> It did not feel to me that Harry was feeling very brave when he was 
> going to Snape for Occlumency lessons and he did not break any rules
 yet. I think this was a cumulative effect of all previous five years.

Pippin:
He felt nervous, as anyone would if they had to enter an enclosed
dungeon  lined with slimy things in jars, and stand there, eyes
closed, while a much more powerful person aimed a weapon at them. Plus
Sirius had planted the idea that Snape was still working for
Voldemort. It may be that Snape's hostility helped Harry to believe
that, but OTOH, he suspected Karkaroff on Sirius's suspicions alone.

 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, Mcgonagall is centuries ahead than Snape to me in that 
> department, she is flexible enough to change her opinion of Neville,
 contrary to Snape's opinion about Harry.

Pippin:
How did she change her opinion? She still did not think he was good
enough at Transfiguration to continue the course.

> 
> Alla:
> 
> LOL. You seriously think that Snape would have wanted to be in 
> Azkaban?
> 
> I would think he would not have lasted very long there, but of
course  just speculating.

Pippin:
There would be a lot more people in Azkaban if Dumbledore's word was
enough to put them there. It isn't. 

> 
> Alla:
> 
> Which way that would be?

Pippin:
Any of the ways in which other known or suspected Death Eaters have
walked free. 

> Alla:
> 
> Not quite, only because Dumbledore wears too many hats IMO. I see 
> Dumbledore as Headmaster of the school who should fire teacher who 
> IMO abuses his authority over the students (some students), but of 
> course since Dumbledore also a leader of Order of Phoenix, we have 
> all that additional stuff.

Pippin:
I don't think it's a matter of two hats. If the Head of the Order was
someone that Dumbledore trusted, and he said it was a matter of
national security and the students' personal safety that Snape
continue to work at Hogwarts, would Dumbledore have done things any
differently?

 
> Alla:
> 
> I think it is a perfect solution actually, if Dumbledore was so 
> afraid of coming face to face with Harry, just writes him a freaking
 letter, for goodness sake.

Pippin:
Dumbledore  does not want to encourage Voldemort to use Harry to
manipulate him, so telling Harry that this is the danger he is trying
to avoid won't work as long as Harry's mind and Voldemort's are
linked. Telling him in a letter will not be much safer than telling
him in person. However, no argument from me that Dumbledore let Harry
down. He says so himself.

Pippin





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Thu Feb 12 16:00:45 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:00:45 -0000
Subject: Revenge on Rita was First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gmv5rj+qkf8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn1h3d+buuv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185782

> Magpie:
 I don't remember anyone in canon ever 
> regretting Hermione's treatment of Rita or thinking for a second 
> they'd contributed to the "crazy Harry" story in OotP by it. 

Pippin:
It's in GoF. Hermione pulls out her copy of the Prophet, and Harry is
worried about what it might say. Hermione says that there's nothing,
just a small piece saying that he'd won the tournament. Not even
anything about Cedric. She guesses Fudge is forcing them to keep quiet.

"He'll never keep Rita quiet," said Harry. "Not on a story like this."
Whereupon Hermione announces that Rita has been keeping quiet since
the third task and isn't going to be writing anything at all for a
while. Hermione's a little scared of what she's done, judging by her
"oddly constrained" and "trembling" voice. 

At the time, they're expecting  a crime spree, and then Fudge will
just look stupid. But on re-reading, it's clear that they just shot
themselves in the foot. 

Harry is dispassionate about Rita's stories "Gone off me a bit, hasn't
she?" except when Snape makes it personal. Then he's angry at Snape.
But Hermione gets angry, not at the person who sent her bubotuber pus,
but at Rita, and unlike Harry, she seeks revenge. I wouldn't call that
dispassionate. All Harry does is call Rita a cow behind her back. 


> 
> Magpie:
> I have never seen that as being a theme of canon at all. How does 
> something working out well within the fictional world translate into
 a warning that this sort of thing doesn't work out well in that same
 fictional world? Storybook revenge is just fine plenty of times in 
these books. 
> 

Pippin:
It's like the Tale of Three Brothers. It can be read as a morality
tale, but Dumbledore prefers to see it as a bit of history, preserved
in the form of a morality tale. He still draws a lesson from it, but
not the same one. For him, it's not a story about death, it's a story
about three dangerously gifted wizards. The main point, that the cloak
can be used to protect others, is only a passing detail in the
morality narrative, but becomes very important when linked to other
events. 

Of course Beedle the Bard never expected his book to be read as
history. But JKR certainly expected Dumbledore to read it that way,
and wrote Beedle's work with that in mind. In the same way, I believe
that canon is designed so that one may read the books as feigned
history rather than as a morality tale, and yet still draw a lesson
from them. 

Hermione doesn't feel remorse, in the sense that she's sorry for the
pain that she caused Rita. Nor does she feel that she was a bad person
for indulging in blackmail. Nevertheless, she took a great risk, one
which frightened her, and produced very mixed results. We know it
wasn't worth it because she didn't try it again.

Pippin

   
 





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 16:06:17 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 16:06:17 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn03vs+hnmj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn1hdp+he15@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185783

> > montavilla47:
> > So, while no one ever came out and said that Voldemort
> > would be able to reverse the Legilimency connection between
> > himself and Harry, one would need to consider that as a 
> > strong possibility--considering that Voldemort was  such 
> > a great Legilimens.  
> 
> Zara:
> Albus did come out and say it. He tells Harry he did not teach himn 
> Occlumency himself, in order not to tempt Voldemort. Albus feared 
> Voldemort would use Harry to spy on him.

Montavilla47:
Thanks, Zara!  I was writing my post when you posted that conversation
and relying on memory.  I remembered Dumbledore being vague about
the situation.  I had no idea he actually came out and said it.  


> > Montavilla47:
> > Now, maybe Snape should have tried using Lupin's trick.  Instead
> > of continuing to tutor the unwilling Harry, he should have suggested
> > that it was too difficult, given Harry some chocolate, and told him
> > to give it up.
> 
> Zara:
> I think Lupin's "trick" only worked because Harry wanted to learn the 
> specific skill he wheedled Lupin into teaching him. This was clearly 
> not the case with Occlumency.

Montavilla47:
I agree.  I was being sarcastic.

>Alla:
>Could you please clarify? Are you suggesting that no teacher was able
>to teach Harry something that Harry was not willing to learn? That no
>teacher was able to overcome Harry's unwillingness to learn?

>I mean, Harry did not want to learn Occlumency much. What I am saying
>is that Snape contributed enormously to that unwillingness and somebody
>more capable and more able to adjust to Harry's learning style would be
>able to overcome that.

Montavilla47:

I'm trying to think about another subject that Harry was unwilling to
learn, but I can't think of one.  The closest I can come to one is when
Dumbledore assigns Harry the "homework" of getting Slughorn's 
memory.  And it's not that Harry is unwilling, it's that it's more 
difficult than Harry anticipated.  

Otherwise, Harry's ability to learn a subject seems dependent on the
teacher.  He excels at classes where he likes the teacher (Tranfiguration,
Charms, COMC, and Herbology), does an average job in the subject
where the teacher is so unremarkable that he never talks about him/her
(Astrology), and does poorly in subjects there the teachers are boring
or generally annoying (History and Divination, although of course his
grade is worsened in History when he has to leave early).

But he does as well in potions as he does with the classes where
he actually likes the teachers--with no indication that Harry enjoys
the subject for its own sake, or sees any purpose in it beyond
passing one of his classes.  Harry also notes that Snape is effective
in getting the class to concentrate--while in other classes, he
is often chatting with Ron and Hermione about other subjects
(they do this in Charms and Herbology) or even playing around (he 
and Ron pretend to duel with the chicken wands in Transfiguration).

And when Harry does get a nice teacher in potions, he promptly
stops learning the subject, content to rely on someone else's 
work--as long as he gets praise and treats.




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 04:23:03 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 04:23:03 -0000
Subject: question about crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <gmvqi7+iojj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn0877+gesd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185784

> zanooda:
> 
> Crookshanks may understand human language, but does Sirius understand
> cat language :-)? Sirius says that Crookshanks "told" him about Peter
> leaving blood stains on Ron's sheet.

Joey:

LOL. :-) Actually, another question too had nagged me. When HRH meet 
Sirius in the Shrieking Shack (PoA climax) and learn about Scabbers, at 
one point, Sirius says "Crookshanks, did you call him?" but then I 
think nobody had called Crookshanks by his name till then. Let me know 
if I'm wrong. 

Cheers,
Joey :-)





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 05:53:15 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 05:53:15 -0000
Subject: question about crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <gmvqi7+iojj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn0dgb+7235@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185785

> zanooda:
> 
> Crookshanks may understand human language, but does Sirius understand
> cat language :-)? Sirius says that Crookshanks "told" him about Peter
> leaving blood stains on Ron's sheet. I think your first assumption was
> correct and Sirius communicated with Crookshanks  in animal form (is
> there some kind of animal language? Snakes have theirs, after all :-).

Joey:
LOL. That seems to be the only explanation for inter-species 
communication, given that some humans could speak parseltongue. :-) 

There is another question I had. At one point, Sirius 
mentions "Crookshanks, did you call him?" (when he explains his past to 
HRH in PoA climax). I think none had addressed Crookshanks by his name 
that night for Sirius to make that remark. If I'm right, what was 
Sirius talking about then?

Cheers,
Joey :-)




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 18:46:43 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:46:43 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn1hdp+he15@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn1qqj+ljoq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185786

Montavilla47 wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to think about another subject that Harry was unwilling
to learn, but I can't think of one.  The closest I can come to one is
when Dumbledore assigns Harry the "homework" of getting Slughorn's 
memory.  And it's not that Harry is unwilling, it's that it's more
difficult than Harry anticipated.  

Carol responds:
And, IIRC, he gets sidetracked, first by Ron's poisoning (which DD
accepts as a reasonable but temporary excuse) and then by--I can't
remember. Quidditch? Ginny? At any rate, he makes one attempt and
gives up. Possibly, he doesn't think it's as important as DD does.
Once that gets through to him, he stops making excuses, accepts
responsibility for his failure to acquire the memory, and succeeds in
getting it (with a lot of help from Felix Felicis). Motivation and
understanding, as well as wanting to meet Dumbledore's expectations,
seem to be the key here.

Montvilla 47: 
> Otherwise, Harry's ability to learn a subject seems dependent on the
teacher.  He excels at classes where he likes the teacher
Tranfiguration, Charms, COMC, and Herbology), does an average job in
the subject where the teacher is so unremarkable that he never talks
about him/her (Astrology), and does poorly in subjects there the
teachers are boring or generally annoying (History and Divination,
although of course his grade is worsened in History when he has to
leave early).

Carol responds:
I've been thinking about this topic, too, and I think that liking the
teacher is only part of it. (And I think we should discount the OWL
exams in Astronomy and History of Magic because they reflect major
distractions, not Harry's usual marks in the subject. sidenote:
Hermione seems to have received an O in Astronomy even with the
distraction of Umbridge and company attacking Hagrid!) Of course,
Hermione always helps both him and Ron with their essays and other
homework, which probably helps both of them get better marks than they
would otherwise. Unlike Hermione, he doesn't pay much attention in his
classes (she's the one who knows about Devil's Snare and Polyjuice
Potion and so forth). Even in Charms, where he likes the teacher, he
and Ron are usually talking or goofing off.

Those things aside, I think that natural ability and enjoyment of a
subject are as important with regard to Harry's performance in at
least some classes as the teacher. Madam Hooch's teaching abilities
are irrelevant to his learning to fly. He excels at it (and at
catching Snitchlike objects) from the first moment he gets on a broom.
And he's motivated to learn Quidditch from Oliver Wood, whether
Oliver, a kid himself, is a good teacher or not. He learns DADA, not
because he has good teachers (with the exception of Lupin and Snape,
the DADA teachers range from mediocre to abysmal) but because he's
highly motivated: He wants to fend off the Dementors so that he can
play Quidditch; he needs to learn Stupefy and similar spells to
survive the TWT. He's also motivated by the Prince's book. He likes
doing well in Potions thanks to the improved instructions (and getting
credit where credit is not due), and he also learns the spells almost
effortlessly, motivated, it seems, by curiosity and enjoyment (and,
ironically, by affection for his friend, the Prince). I think he does
learn, despite himself, from the essays he's forced to write (with a
little help from Hermione) for Potions and Astronomy, at least. In
Divination, OTOH, he has no motivation to learn at all and fakes his
homework. It seems to be a combination of a ditzy teacher and a
"fuzzy" subject for which even Hermione has no use and a complete lack
of interest or aptitude. (We see a contrasting reaction from Parvati
and Lavender, who like Trelawney and perhaps have some aptitiude for
reading tea leaves and crystal balls.) His poor performance in History
of Magic, setting aside the OWL he doesn't get through because of the
implanted vision, is probably a combination of an uninspiring teacher
and lack of motivation to study on his own. At one point, he realizes
that the subject might have been interesting in the hands of another
teacher, but Binns just drones on monotonously without even knowing
his own students' names, hardly varying the subject matter. (Why are
they *still* studying Goblin Wars? Hasn't anything else happened in WW
history? If Binns had talked about the rise of Grindelwald or
Voldemort, Harry would have been motivated to listen.) As for liking
the COMC teacher, Harry grudgingly admits (or the narrator does) that
he learns more from Grubbly-Plank, whom he resents, than from Hagrid,
who is for the most part an abysmal teacher. (Thestrals prove useful,
but it seems to be Luna who's learned about them.)

Montavilla47: 
> But he does as well in potions as he does with the classes where he
actually likes the teachers--with no indication that Harry enjoys the
subject for its own sake, or sees any purpose in it beyond passing one
of his classes.  Harry also notes that Snape is effective in getting
the class to concentrate--while in other classes, he is often chatting
with Ron and Hermione about other subjects (they do this in Charms and
Herbology) or even playing around (he and Ron pretend to duel with the
chicken wands in Transfiguration).
> 
> And when Harry does get a nice teacher in potions, he promptly stops
learning the subject, content to rely on someone else's work--as long
as he gets praise and treats.

Carol:
I agree except that Harry does have a motivation for bringing up his
marks in the core subjects (setting aside DADA and Umbridge) in OWL
year: He needs to get into NEWT Potions, Herbology, Transfiguration,
and Charms to become an Auror. 

I agree that he learned more in Potions from Snape than he did from
Slughorn (unless you count the effects of Felix Felicis). Otherwise,
he'd never have earned an E despite his dislike of Snape. And his
performance in Slughorn's class has nothing to do with Slughorn's
favoritism and everything to do with following Snape's directions to
the letter. If only he'd done that in classes where Snape was actually
the teacher instead of the textbook reviser!

Carol, who thinks that motivation is the key to Harry's performance
(or lack thereof), with enjoyment, natural ability, and the teacher's
style and/or competence also factoring into the equation




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 18:51:06 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:51:06 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation  LONG
In-Reply-To: <gn1jqc+pkvm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn1r2q+ojtl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185787

> > Alla:
> > 
> > No, but I believe that Snape's bullying was to produce that effect, 
> > that this is something Snape would have dearly liked to see. Again, 
> > IMO.
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> Since it never happens, we can't know that. You are telling me your
> issue is with Snape's behavior, and I believe that, but  Snape's
> intentions and desires are not behavior, IMO. And as they can't be
> measured, how is Dumbledore to know whether Snape has changed them or 
not?
<SNIP>

Alla:

I know he did not change them, Snape that is. I know that he is still 
indignant when Dumbledore is asking about change of heart as to Harry. 
I know that at the moment of his supposed great distress, when Snape 
just killed Dumbledore, he is still got time to say *you and and your 
filfy father* to Harry. It is to me evidence a plenty that he got Harry 
and James majorly mixed up in his head, IMO of course.

You are right we do not hear Snape saying I want you to fear me, but I 
think I can easily infer it based on what I hear Snape saying and doing.

I know Snape hates Harry, I know that I cannot buy any other reasons of 
why he would run that questioning of him on the first lessons, ergo he 
run that questioning because he hated Harry on sight.

Of course it is an inference, but I happen to find it much stronger one 
than  say for example the one about Slytherins coming back. And even 
that one I can see easily.

My opinion of course.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
Dumbledore could certainly order Snape to act as if he liked Harry.
But I really do not see how that would help.

Alla:

Frst of all I do not need Dumbledore order Snape to act as if he liked 
Harry. That would be nice, but I really do not think Snape is capable 
of human kindness to anybody but Lily and maybe Malfoys?. I want 
Dumbledore to order Snape to act as if he was ANY other student in his 
class, would be nice if he included Neville and Hermione in there.
 I think it would help Harry to be much more capable student if Snape 
refrained from his bullying and just taught.

I think that JKR in Snape described a teacher similarly to what Sherry 
described upthread, I mean it is all great that Harry's and Neville 
courage prevailed over his methods.

But I think a very reasonable possibility would be of somebody turning 
them off the studying forever.

I am glad it did not happen and I am glad that JKR spared her future 
wizarding kids from Snape at school, but I will not think of what Snape 
did any differently just because he could have hurt Harry and Neville 
even more and they turned out to be too strong for him.

I think Neville especially is shown as suffering a lot (boggart) from 
Snape and no thanks to Snape again that his spirit was so strong IMO.

Alla:
>
> Yes, Mcgonagall is centuries ahead than Snape to me in that
> department, she is flexible enough to change her opinion of Neville,
contrary to Snape's opinion about Harry.

Pippin:
How did she change her opinion? She still did not think he was good
enough at Transfiguration to continue the course.

Alla:

She learned to respect him for who he is, it seemed to me and wanted 
his grandmother did the same, something that Snape unfortunately never 
did, respecting Harry for who he is.

Alla:
> It did not feel to me that Harry was feeling very brave when he was
> going to Snape for Occlumency lessons and he did not break any rules
yet. I think this was a cumulative effect of all previous five years.

Pippin:
He felt nervous, as anyone would if they had to enter an enclosed
dungeon lined with slimy things in jars, and stand there, eyes
closed, while a much more powerful person aimed a weapon at them. <SNIP>

Alla:

My opinion is that he felt nervous because he went to study with Snape. 
Harry went to LOTS of dark places and was being significantly less 
nervous to me than how he described here. Do not have book with me now.

Pippin:
There would be a lot more people in Azkaban if Dumbledore's word was
enough to put them there. It isn't.

Alla:

Of course not, but I am left with the opinion that Dumbledore's "Snape 
is no more a DE than I am" was the deal breaker that saved him from 
Azkaban.  We did see what happened to those at the hearing that 
Dumbledore did not vouch for.



Montavilla47:
<SNIP
I'm trying to think about another subject that Harry was unwilling to
learn, but I can't think of one. The closest I can come to one is when
Dumbledore assigns Harry the "homework" of getting Slughorn's
memory. And it's not that Harry is unwilling, it's that it's more
difficult than Harry anticipated.trying to think about another subject 
that Harry was unwilling to
learn, but I can't think of one. The closest I can come to one is when
Dumbledore assigns Harry the "homework" of getting Slughorn's
memory. And it's not that Harry is unwilling, it's that it's more
difficult than Harry anticipated. <SNIP>

Alla:

I think this is sort of proves the point that good teacher can make 
Harry do something he is really not enthusiastic of doing. Harry fails, 
he comes up to Dumbledore, tells him he had all those problems and 
Dumbledore makes him willing to go try again with several sentences. 
IMO of course.

jkoney:
I think Alla was referring to Harry's mental state towards Snape. Not
all of the other things going on in his life. <SNIP of the whole post>

Alla:

Yes of course.


JMO,

Alla








From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 12 18:54:34 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:54:34 -0000
Subject: Revenge on Rita was First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gn1h3d+buuv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn1r9a+96vb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185788

> > Magpie:
>  I don't remember anyone in canon ever 
> > regretting Hermione's treatment of Rita or thinking for a second 
> > they'd contributed to the "crazy Harry" story in OotP by it. 
> 
> Pippin:
> It's in GoF. Hermione pulls out her copy of the Prophet, and Harry 
is
> worried about what it might say. Hermione says that there's nothing,
> just a small piece saying that he'd won the tournament. Not even
> anything about Cedric. She guesses Fudge is forcing them to keep 
quiet.
> 
> "He'll never keep Rita quiet," said Harry. "Not on a story like 
this."
> Whereupon Hermione announces that Rita has been keeping quiet since
> the third task and isn't going to be writing anything at all for a
> while. Hermione's a little scared of what she's done, judging by her
> "oddly constrained" and "trembling" voice. 
> 
> At the time, they're expecting  a crime spree, and then Fudge will
> just look stupid. But on re-reading, it's clear that they just shot
> themselves in the foot. 

Magpie:
I see what you're saying, but it's not clear at all on my re-reading. 
The whole thing completely depends on me seeing Rita as an honest 
writer who would have reported the truth because it was the truth and 
that's not Rita. I retain the same impression I did in OotP, which is 
that they were just lucky that Rita wasn't leading the way on the 
crazy!Harry spin. I doubt she'd have any trouble with that story 
(it's not like she was in the graveyard with Harry to begin with) 
selling her papers. 

Pippin: 
> Harry is dispassionate about Rita's stories "Gone off me a bit, 
hasn't
> she?" except when Snape makes it personal. Then he's angry at Snape.
> But Hermione gets angry, not at the person who sent her bubotuber 
pus,
> but at Rita, and unlike Harry, she seeks revenge.

Magpie:
Hermione is dispassionate about Rita's stories until they become a 
practical nuisance. That's when she sends Rita the message that you 
don't f**k with Hermione Jean Granger--a lesson Rita learns. It's 
perfectly rational for Hermione not to get angry at the person who 
sent her the pus. She goes to the source of the problem and takes 
care of her. Much smarter.

Harry is annoyed at stories about him that are annoying and angry 
when Snape publically humilates them with them. I don't see how this 
is proving that Snape's picking on Harry in class has caused Harry to 
be less sensitive about public humiliation. Fear of public 
humiliation is very common for Harry throughout the books--it's far 
more associated with him as a character than Hermione. (Granted he 
also deals with it more, but that's just yet another reason he hardly 
needs Snape's help to get used to it.) 

Hermione by nature makes plans and manipulates events. That's why she 
reacts with a plan, imo, not because she's so much more out of 
control angry than Harry. It's the same reason it's Hermione making 
plans to take care of Voldemort where Harry just deals with how he 
feels about having to take care of him. Harry's a stewer.
Hermione wasn't angry at the intitial story or the initial laughter 
about it so it's not the public humiliation that bothered her. 
Snape says humiliating things to both of them publically. Harry hates 
Snape and Hermione doesn't. 

Pippin:
 I wouldn't call that
> dispassionate. All Harry does is call Rita a cow behind her back.

Magpie:
I would. Hermione's not flying off in a rage here, she's coming up 
with a viciously efficient plan to punish Rita that works. She's 
angry at the attack on her, but doesn't commit a crime of passion in 
return. Her revenge is cold-blooded. 


> > Magpie:
> > I have never seen that as being a theme of canon at all. How does 
> > something working out well within the fictional world translate 
into
>  a warning that this sort of thing doesn't work out well in that 
same
>  fictional world? Storybook revenge is just fine plenty of times in 
> these books. 
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> It's like the Tale of Three Brothers. It can be read as a morality
> tale, but Dumbledore prefers to see it as a bit of history, 
preserved
> in the form of a morality tale. He still draws a lesson from it, but
> not the same one. For him, it's not a story about death, it's a 
story
> about three dangerously gifted wizards. The main point, that the 
cloak
> can be used to protect others, is only a passing detail in the
> morality narrative, but becomes very important when linked to other
> events. 

Magpie:
Not seeing how that shows this theme of the books you said was there.

Pippin:
> Hermione doesn't feel remorse, in the sense that she's sorry for the
> pain that she caused Rita. Nor does she feel that she was a bad 
person
> for indulging in blackmail. Nevertheless, she took a great risk, one
> which frightened her, and produced very mixed results. We know it
> wasn't worth it because she didn't try it again.

Magpie:
The fact that the same kind of opportunity and situation never came 
up again does not prove that Hermione decided it wasn't worth it. The 
book showed Hermione use blackmail without remorse and without bad 
consequences. The fact that one can insert some lukewarm objections 
to that doesn't make those objections the point in the story. I don't 
know what JKR thinks about it, but given what I read in the story I 
would predict her answer if challenged to be slyly gleeful about 
Hermione's triumph and at most add a lukewarm warning not to try this 
at home kids because the author of your life doesn't have your back.

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 19:15:42 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 19:15:42 -0000
Subject: question about crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <gmvqi7+iojj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn1sgu+l0g3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185789

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
Carol wrote:
> 
> > Since, as Montavilla points out, Sirius must be communicating 
with him in some complex way, I thought at first that he would do so
as Padfoot, but it appears that Crookshanks (like Filch's cat, Mrs.
Norris, and Mrs. Figg's cats) understands human language.
> 
> 
> zanooda:
> 
> Crookshanks may understand human language, but does Sirius
understand cat language :-)? Sirius says that Crookshanks "told" him
about Peter leaving blood stains on Ron's sheet. I think your first
assumption was correct and Sirius communicated with Crookshanks  in
animal form (is there some kind of animal language? Snakes have
theirs, after all :-).

Carol responds:
Leaving Parseltongue out of the equation, I think you may be right
about an animal language that Animagi can speak and understand in
their animal form. Wormtail, for example, learns from various small
animals that he speaks to in Albania about a shadow that possesses and
destroys small creatures like themselves. Whether those animals are
rats or snakes or squirrels or skunks is not clear. Also, of course,
Padfoot, Prongs, and Wormtail could communicate with each other, and
apparently with werewolf Moony in their Animagus forms despite being
members of very different species. Yet they can also understand their
own human language (Scabbers appears to have been eavesdropping for
years) just as Crookshanks and the other cats I named can.

It seems that Crookshanks initially met Padfoot in animal form and was
suspicious of him as he had been of Scabbers, but it can't be simply
the Animagus form that aroused his suspicions because he ended up
befriending Sirius Black in human as well as animal form but retaining
his hostility toward Scabbers and actively trying to catch him or help
Sirius get to him 9the stolen passwords, which he could only have
retrieved on Sirius's instructions.

Here's my theory. Padfoot first made clear, possibly by transforming
in Crookshanks's presence, that he was no threat, either as dog or
man, to Crookshanks. He may have talked with him in that form to get
to know him and understand whatever Crookshanks had to say (when
Crookshanks was reporting for duty, so to speak--the bloodstains would
be one example). However, there was clearly no human-style
introduction: "Hi, I'm Crookshanks." "Pleased to meet you. I'm Sirius
Black, but you can call me Padfoot." Otherwise, Sirius would have
known Crookshanks's name.

Since we know from Crookshanks's behavior (paying attention when Ron
says that Scabbers is in his pocket) that he understands human
language, I suspect that Black communicated to him in human form when
he had detailed instructions to give. Animal language probably
wouldn't contain phrases like "a list of passwords to Gryffindor." But
when he needed to understand Crookshanks' communications, he would
have needed to transform into a dog.

Still, a cat who can use animal language to convey a concept like
"bloodstains on the sheets"? My ability to suspend disbelief is
becoming a bit strained. Best not to think too much about it.

Carol, who wonders if Sirius Black would have been a little less
lonely and depressed if Hermione had left Crookshanks with him in 12 GP




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 20:20:19 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:20:19 -0000
Subject: Revenge on Rita was First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gn1r9a+96vb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn20a3+ncf7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185790

Magpie wrote:
> <snip> Harry is annoyed at stories about him that are annoying and
angry when Snape publically humilates them with them. I don't see how
this is proving that Snape's picking on Harry in class has caused
Harry to be less sensitive about public humiliation. Fear of public
humiliation is very common for Harry throughout the books--it's far 
more associated with him as a character than Hermione. (Granted he
also deals with it more, but that's just yet another reason he hardly
needs Snape's help to get used to it.) <snip>

Carol responds:

I don't want to talk about Hermione at the moment, so I'm snipping the
discussion of her. I think, however, that Harry's ability to deal with
both fame and notoriety, public adoration and public humiliation, is
one of the important motifs in the books.

We start with Dumbledore placing him away from the WW so that (among
other reasons) he won't grow up a "pampered prince," praised and
adored for something he had no control over, surviving an AK and
(supposedly) vanquishing a Dark Wizard. I don't see how that sort of
fame could *not* go to his head, and the fact that his parents died
while he survived might add survivor's guilt to the equation.

Be that as it may, has plenty of experience with *private* humiliation
with the Dursleys, who are trying to stifle the magic in him without
telling him what it's all about, at the same time treating him like a
fairytale stepchild, a male Cinderella. He experiences *public*
humiliation at school, with the bullying of Dudley and his friends and
being generally laughed at for his clothes and being picked last for
sports teams, etc.

All of this experience makes him better prepared for public
humiliation than, say, Ron, who (IIRC) has trouble dealing with
unpopularity after he bungles a Quidditch game. He doesn't *fear*
Snape any more than he fears Vernon or Dudley. He responds to the
first Potions lesson with cheek and to the deduction of a point with
resentment. The experience temporarily spares him from undeserved
public adulation, but Quidditch turns the tables and he quickly
becomes a hero to the Gryffindors and a rival to everyone else,
especially Slytherin. Then he loses all those points for Gryffindor,
and his whole House turns against him. And then he and his friends win
them back, making them heroes again to Gryffindor and intensifying the
Gryffindor-Slytherin rivalry into enmity.

I'm oversimplifying, I realize, but even by the end of first year,
Harry has more experience dealing with extremes of popularity and
unpopularity than anyone else in the school. (To some degree, Hermione
and Ron share his experience, but they don't have Quidditch-hero
status or Harry's history.)

Lockhart in second year capitalizes on Harry's celebrity and, IMO,
makes Harry very uncomfortable with it. Colin Creevey with his camera
is no help, either. Then Harry reveals himself as a Parselmouth and
finds himself feared by half the school. Even the usually friendly
Hufflepuffs think that he loosed Draco's conjured snake on Justin
Finch-Fletchley, and he's widely suspected of being the Heir of
Slytherin. Matters get worse as more Muggle-borns are Petrified (until
Hermione's Petrification makes it clear that Harry is not guilty). 

In PoA, Harry's battle with fame is obscured by the idea that a
murderer is after him, but in GoF, it comes to the fore again. Harry
has to deal with personal unpopularity based on the idae that he put
his own name in the Goblet of Fire, with even his best friend
believing that he did so and lied about it. The tables turn yet again
when he battles the Hungarian Horntail, with even the Hufflepuffs who
had resented him for snatching Cedric's glory now supporting both
their champions. (The Slytherins still support Cedric as the real
Hogwarts champion.) The spotlight remains on Harry thanks in part to
Rita Skeeter and her articles, some favorable and some not. Harry's
"gone off me a bit, hasn't she?" shows that he doesn't mind the
articles that deal with him. He's used to fluctuations in popularity
and to public praise and/or ridicule and even aversion by now. It's
only when Hagrid or Hermione is involved that he becomes upset.

In OoP, of course, he's become a publicity-seeking liar who falsely
claims that Voldemort is back. Bad publicity for himself (and
Dumbledore) is the least of his problems. He's battling anger and the
fear that he's being possessed and Umbridge and glimpses into
Voldemort's mind and Umbridge's takeover, none of which helps or is
helped by Occlumency lessons with Snape. The public humiliation of
being called a liar by Umbridge is no humiliation at all. He stands up
to her and gets a series of cruel detentions that don't deter him or
cow him one iota. He's reluctant to teach the DA at first, sure that
they're only there to find out about Cedric, but eventually gets over
it and does what they need him to do (which, in most cases, is teach
what Umbridge isn't teaching).

By HBP, when no one can deny that Voldemort is back, he's become the
Prophecy Boy who fought LV in the MoM. The graveyard story has also
come out and is republished in the Prophet. By this time, fluctuations
in fame and popularity, public adulation and public attacks, have no
effect on Harry whatever. (He does, however, take advantage of being
Slughorn's little Potions Prince, as Hermione calls him somewhere.)
Otherwise, he's obsessed with finding out what Draco Malfoy is up to
and indifferent to what people think of him. He resists Scrimgeour's
efforts to make him into a mascot.

In DH, of course, he's dealing with fame only indirectly, hearing
about himself as--guess what--a mascot after all through the Wizarding
Wireless and about himself as inspiration for the reinstated DA later
in the book. And, of course, at the end he has to battle Voldemort,
all of which intensifies his fame.

But the epilogue shows that Harry, who is still stared at because of
his (no longer active) scar, is completely indifferent to what anyone
other than his friends and family thinks of him. And even Ron, who has
battled jealousy or envy for seven books, can now joke about his being
the famous one.

That whole concept of Harry as "our new celebrity" and his learning to
deal with the vicissitudes of fame and infamy is developed throughout
the book, beginning not with Snape but with his placement on the
Dursleys' doorstep and culminating in JustHarry, who happens to be
famous but lives a normal life, anyway, at the end of the book.

Carol, writing from memory and probably getting some details wrong but
trying to point out a thematic pattern or motif in the series as a whole




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 20:33:27 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:33:27 -0000
Subject: Revenge on Rita was First lesson (correction)
In-Reply-To: <gn20a3+ncf7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn212n+d3cc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185791

Carol earlier:
<snip> 
> In OoP, of course, he's become a publicity-seeking liar who falsely
claims that Voldemort is back. <snip>

Carol again:
Before anyone takes this statement at face value and jumps on me, I
mane, of course, that he's being depicted in the Daily Prophet as a
publicity-seeking liar, not that he has really become one!

Carol, wasting a post but wanting to avoid misunderstanding




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 12 20:43:43 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:43:43 -0000
Subject: Public humiliation: Re: Revenge on Rita was First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gn20a3+ncf7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn21lv+b5be@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185792

> Carol responds:

> All of this experience makes him better prepared for public
> humiliation than, say, Ron, who (IIRC) has trouble dealing with
> unpopularity after he bungles a Quidditch game. He doesn't *fear*
> Snape any more than he fears Vernon or Dudley. He responds to the
> first Potions lesson with cheek and to the deduction of a point with
> resentment. The experience temporarily spares him from undeserved
> public adulation, but Quidditch turns the tables and he quickly
> becomes a hero to the Gryffindors and a rival to everyone else,
> especially Slytherin. Then he loses all those points for Gryffindor,
> and his whole House turns against him. And then he and his friends 
win
> them back, making them heroes again to Gryffindor and intensifying 
the
> Gryffindor-Slytherin rivalry into enmity.

Magpie:
Actually, when this convo started I started thinking something sort 
of different. I think the connection between handling humiliation 
well or not connects not to practice but the opposite. Hermione seems 
to have supportive parents. She has issues, but they're not centered 
on public humliation. Where as I tend to associate characters who 
have issues with it with characters who have more of a history of 
being humliated.

This is a different issue than handling of fame, something few 
characters have to deal with. I suppose one could say that Harry 
would have been insufferable if he had better parents than the 
Dursleys, but that's hard to prove, since he didn't have them. Good 
parents wouldn't have to be over-indulgent.

Ron doesn't handle public humiliation as well as Harry handles 
everything better than Ron. (Also I'd Harry more often worries about 
looking foolish but doesn't, where Ron actually looks foolish on the 
Quidditch Pitch.) But I'd say the fear of public humiliation is 
common for Harry, who has a lot of experience with humiliation. Ginny 
otoh, ultimately seems really confident (outside of being shy around 
Harry when she's young). Seems like Ron, the child teased more often 
than Ginny, has more issues. Neville's family tells him he sucks and 
until he gets over it he freaks out over Snape's criticism. The one 
early scene we have with Lucius he's putting Draco down in front of a 
shopkeeper and Draco also gets furious when humiliated. Snape seems 
way sensitive about it and he's got a history with James.

Of course personalities come into it, as does the area about which a 
person is being teased. Molly critizes the Twins, but seems to 
criticize them for things that they think are great. Percy is praised 
by Molly and yet is totally sensitive about the Twins' teasing (which 
again links a character sensitive about this stuff with a history of 
teasing). Dumbledore's totally cool about stuff like this and he's 
alwyas told he was great.

So I really don't think the book makes a connection between lots of 
exposure to humiliation and handling it better. Harry can't help but 
get a bit better at it since he's exposed to so much of it, but I'd 
say that the most confident characters are the ones who don't have a 
history of humiliation and shame. I think it's more common to find 
out that the characters who think about this kind of stuff have 
experienced it more than others.

Handling fame is a different issue, I think. Snape sometimes brings 
that into it when he's dealing with Harry in class ("our new 
celebrity" etc.) but I don't think he really knows much about that 
aspect of it. 

So yeah, I'd say that Harry dealing with fame is a big theme, but a 
different from the connection between humiliation and confidence.

-m




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb 13 01:31:21 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 01:31:21 -0000
Subject: Revenge on Rita was First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gn1r9a+96vb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn2ih9+e7sv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185793

 
> 
> Magpie:
> I see what you're saying, but it's not clear at all on my re-reading. 
> The whole thing completely depends on me seeing Rita as an honest 
> writer who would have reported the truth because it was the truth
and  that's not Rita.

Pippin:
She would have reported that Harry Potter was accusing prominent
wizards of Death Eating, not because it was true, but because it would
have been a colossal story, which the Ministry wasn't telling  even as
craziness.

 As it still was, months later:
"I wasn't the sole witness," snarled Harry. "There were a dozen-odd
Death Eaters there as well. Want their names?"
"I'd love them," breathed Rita, now fumbling in her bag once more and
gazing at him as if he were the most beautiful thing she had ever seen.

Hermione had to coerce Rita, but only into writing the story for free,
not into writing it at all. Rita thought at first that the public
wouldn't want Harry's version. But Hermione convinced her that they would.

> Magpie:
> The fact that the same kind of opportunity and situation never came 
> up again does not prove that Hermione decided it wasn't worth it. The 
> book showed Hermione use blackmail without remorse and without bad 
> consequences. The fact that one can insert some lukewarm objections 
> to that doesn't make those objections the point in the story. I don't 
> know what JKR thinks about it, but given what I read in the story I 
> would predict her answer if challenged to be slyly gleeful about 
> Hermione's triumph and at most add a lukewarm warning not to try
this  at home kids because the author of your life doesn't have your back.

Pippin:
Exactly. It works as a revenge fantasy, if you can overlook all the
inconvenient "realities" that JKR put in the book. Easy to do, if
you're reading, but not so if you had to live day-to-day with
Hermione's anxiety, the dangers of blackmail (dealt with in the Malfoy
and Twins storylines) and Rita's determination to write some more
nasty stuff about Harry and Hermione one day, which doesn't fret
Hermione by the time of OOP, but was the initial point of the exercise.

Pippin





From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 01:01:52 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 01:01:52 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gmvt7v+s3gj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn2gq0+l35h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185794

> Zara:
> Here you go.
> 
> > OotP:
> > 'More recently,' said Dumbledore, 'I became concerned that 
> Voldemort might realise that this connection between you exists. 
Sure 
> enough, there came a time when you entered so far into his mind and 
> thoughts that he sensed your presence. I am speaking, of course, of 
> the night when you witnessed the attack on Mr Weasley'
> 
> > 'Yeah, Snape told me,' Harry muttered.

>snip> 
> 
> > 'You see,' Dumbledore continued, 'I believed it could not be long 
> before Voldemort attempted to force his way into your mind, to 
> manipulate and misdirect your thoughts, and I was not eager to give 
> him more incentives to do so. I was sure that if he realised that 
our 
> relationship was - or had ever been - closer than that of 
headmaster 
> and pupil, he would seize his chance to use you as a means to spy 
on 
> me. I feared the uses to which he would put you, the possibility 
that 
> he might try and possess you. Harry, I believe I was right to think 
> that Voldemort would have made use of you in such a way. On those 
> rare occasions when we had close con-tact, I thought I saw a shadow 
> of him stir behind your eyes . . .'
> 
> > Harry remembered the feeling that a dormant snake had risen in 
him, 
> ready to strike, in those moments when he and Dumbledore had made 
eye-
> contact.
>snip> 
> > > > 'Sirius told me you felt Voldemort awake inside you the very 
night 
> that you had the vision of Arthur Weasley's attack. I knew at once 
> that my worst fears were correct: Voldemort had realised he could 
use 
> you. In an attempt to arm you against Voldemort s assaults on your 
> mind, I arranged Occlumency lessons with Professor Snape.'
>

jkoney:
I understand what you are getting at, it's just that I still wish it 
would have been more direct in saying that Voldemort was 
controlling/spying through Harry.

It's just that the "dormant snake" reminds me of the "beast" that 
flared to life when he saw Ginny kissing Dean. More like his feelings 
were acting and he felt them. So I can see that Voldemort would have 
been able to influence Harry's feelings/thoughts but I have trouble 
with Voldemort reading Harry's mind and seeing through Harry's eyes. 
Especially since Snape was assigned the task of teaching Harry.

Why would Snape agree to something that would get him killed by 
Voldemort? Did he think he could manipulate the situation and 
convince Voldemort he wasn't trying to help Harry? That's a big risk 
to put your only inner circle spy in.

Perhaps thats why Snape was able to end it by setting up Harry with 
the pensieve? That way he could end the lessons and say it was 
Harry's fault.

jkoney (whose thoughts seem to be rambling)








From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Feb 13 03:57:21 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 03:57:21 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn04o7+cmsn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn2r31+bvad@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185795

SSSusan:
> To the best of his ability? I don't believe so, no. A teacher who
> insults and berates and belittles most often does not draw out the
> best work from a student... and we know he didn't from Harry, who
> tended to shut down and/or just get angry in return, rather than
> saying, "Okay, I'm just gonna buckle down and SHOW this guy he's
> wrong about me!" Nope, Harry wasn't that kind of student, and if
> Snape really wanted Harry to learn, he'd have known that. He didn't
> care, tho, imo.

Montavilla47:
> Well, didn't Harry actually do his (potentially) best work when 
> Snape was angriest with him? The one time Harry thought he really 
> got a potion right was after the SWM incident. Of course, any 
> teaching value that had was erased by Snape's so unprofessional 
> behavior when the vial was broken (whether he broke it or whether 
> it was broken accidentally).

SSSusan:
And this is kind of my point.  Let's go with that example and see 
where it gets us.  For once Harry determined he'd better really focus 
and get the potion right.  He buckled down and he did so.  Even if 
Snape was incapable of praising or acknowledging the effort, he could 
have just accepted the potion and gone on without comment.  

Perhaps a corner would have been turned and Harry would've learned 
that, if he tried hard enough and shut up, they could tolerate one 
another.  But no, the vial "slips," Snape issues that "oops," and in 
an instant, additional damage has been done to their already damaged 
relationship.  

I've heard the arguments, but I'll never be convinced Snape did not 
intentionally drop the vial, and I believe JKR wrote it the way she 
did for us to receive the implication that he did so.  That was 
exceptionally childish and, as you said, it was unprofessional.  It 
wiped out any chance of turning things around.  So, see, Harry tried 
something different (heh ? actually concentrating, working hard, not 
arguing), but Snape couldn't rise to the same level and, imo, made 
the chasm even greater by how he treated Harry.  WORSE than square 
one, then.


SSSusan:
> And I'm also talking about Harry learning not just classroom stuff,
> but life stuff beyond it. The inability to stick with Occlumency,
> the "oops" with the potion -- these are not the kinds of things
> teachers who are determined for a student to learn do. IMHO. :)

Montavilla47:
> I'm not sure we can blame Snape entirely for Harrys failure to
> learn Occlumency. He's definitely not patient with Harry, but
> it's clear to me that Snape is trying very hard in the lessons. He
> does acknowledge when Harry makes progress, and he answers
> Harrry's questions.

SSSusan:
I *don't* blame Snape entirely.  In fact, imo, the *first* Occlumency 
lesson was Snape's shining moment as a teacher of Harry.  While not 
patient by many people's standards, that was the most patient I think 
we'd seen him; and while not totally forthcoming (especially with 
explicit hints & suggestions), he did manage to provide some answers 
to Harry.  I was hopeful at the start of that lesson!  But, alas, due 
to a combination of Snape's & Harry's behaviors, and, I'd allege, 
their history, it went downhill from there.


SSSusan:
> This is not at all to downplay the important things he did teach, 
> the important things Harry learned from *or* because of Snape. I'm 
> just talking about effective instruction and a *desire* to teach a
> particular student. Snape was a grudging teacher of Harry and on
> occasion was an impediment to his learning, in my view, along with
> those times he did teach okay. Harry was to blame, too, but, having
> been a teacher of teens, I will always put the higher burden on a
> teacher to get the ball rolling and to play fair.

Montavilla47:
> And you are right to put the higher burden on the teacher. But if 
> you are going to condemn Snape not teaching Harry enough, I think 
> it's only fair to point out that Snape actually taught Harry quite 
> a bit.
<snip>

SSSusan:
But I *did* point out Snape taught Harry some things and I *didn't* 
blame Snape entirely!  It's right there in the quote above ? "This is 
not at all to downplay the important things he did teach, the 
important things Harry learned from *or* because of Snape."  To me, I 
did acknowledge what Snape did.

I'm not speaking just to you, Montavilla, but I find that this has 
happened pretty much every time I've brought up my issues with Snape 
as a teacher ? which is a position of criticism tempered with 
acknowledgment of some successes and definitely some fault on the 
student's part; that is, somehow it gets implied that I said Snape 
didn't do anything right and was totally to blame and Harry didn't do 
anything wrong.  That's not what I said and it's decidedly not what I 
meant.

However, in terms of a higher burden, let me mention this.  This 
started with "first lesson" so let me go back there.  Let's say 
you're 11 years old, brand new to this whole wizard and magic stuff, 
off to a new school.  You see a teacher who seems to be staring at 
you with, what's this?, loathing!  (Which turns out to be TRUE, I 
might add, not a figment of the kid's imagination.)  Then you get to 
this professor's class and he proceeds to humiliate and make an 
example of you, when you have NO idea what you've done wrong, why the 
guy detests you, nor how you were supposed to know any of this stuff.

It would seem to me quite reasonable to say that the *initial* 
problems here began with Snape, that he failed in the bearing of more 
of the burden, that he was largely to blame for establishing a 
pattern with Harry that Harry would then do his own part to 
exacerbate and continue.  Snape behaved poorly and did not give the 
kid a chance.  

Whether people feel he couldn't help it because he was so damaged 
inside, because it was so difficult to look at Harry and have to see 
both Lily and James ? well, okay, that may be the reason, but it's 
pretty sad that he could not set that aside at all to see what the 
kid was all about.  A good teacher would have found a way, imo!  I 
taught teens myself, and I can tell you that if a kid walked in my 
class and I judged him and treated him a particular way based upon 
what I knew of some member of his family, that would have been just 
about as pathetic a thing as I could have done as a teacher
 beyond 
intentionally losing a kid's homework assignment or something. ;)


Zara:
> It seemed to me that Lupin did not want to teach Harry about 
> Dementors at all. It was only at Harry's insistence that he did so.

Alla:
> I cannot speak for Susan of course, but it seems to me that she was
> arguing that Lupin would have done whatever it takes if he felt 
> Harry truly needed it, be it Dumbledore who asked him or whatever 
> the reason was that Lupin would have thought that to be important.

SSSusan:
Alla nailed it for me (thank you).  It was that willingness that I 
was talking about.  It was also that Lupin would speak with Harry 
without nasty sarcasm or insults, would actually listen to him and 
was willing to consider what he had to say.  Snape could never do 
that with Harry (and probably wasn't exactly inclined to do so with 
any student, but never with Harry).   


Zara:
> Snape, on the other hand, had in Harry a student of Occlumency who 
> was completely unwilling to learn, and put no effort into the 
> classes. And while some part of that could be laid at Snape's door 
> based on their past history together, I think it unfair to blame 
> Snape entirely.

SSSusan:
Please see my remarks above.  I did not blame Snape entirely.


Montavilla:
> A simple letter of explanation from Dumbledore might have
> helped Harry immensely in seeing the value of the lessons
> something Lupin didn't need to do in PoA). I'd say the person
> who really let Harry down in the Occlumency lessons was
> Dumbledore.

SSSusan:
I totally agree with you on this.  A *big* "what if" is if DD had 
simply done this!


jkoney:
> I do blame Snape for not being able to adjust his teaching style. If
> a student isn't progressing with the first way you are teaching 
> there must be another way to get the point across so they can learn.
>
> Harry's learning style seems completely opposite to the way Snape
> teaches. He eventually learns to block Voldemort out doing the exact
> opposite of what Snape tells him. His way of handling dementors also
> is different.

Montavilla47:
> You're mixing up two different things here. Learning styles vs. 
> teaching style is different from Harry's way of blocking Voldemort 
> vs. Snape's method. Also, Snape didn't insist on Harry using on 
> method to block Voldemort's mind-probes. In fact, Harry was annoyed 
> because Snape didn't tell him exactly how to block Legilimency at 
> first--which argues that Snape was aware that there were different 
> ways to Occlude and was willing to let Harry find the method that 
> worked best *for Harry.*
> Now, maybe Snape should have tried using Lupin's trick. Instead
> of continuing to tutor the unwilling Harry, he should have suggested
> that it was too difficult, given Harry some chocolate, and told him
> to give it up.
>
> That would be employing a different teaching style. But, as your
> point that Harry's learning style is unsuited to Snape's style, I'm
> not so sure about that.

SSSusan:
I think there is something to what jkoney wrote.  It's of course true 
that teaching styles and learning styles are two different things, 
but I agree that a teacher *can* find alternate means of working with 
students when it's discovered that a student's not getting 
something.  Now, that does NOT sound like anything Snape would ever 
have been interested in doing for very many of his students!  Still, 
while I understand what's been presented about Snape not fully 
knowing how vital it was that Harry learn how to defend himself 
against Voldemort, I still maintain that by 2nd or 3rd year, he knew 
the kids WAS in danger and would likely continue to be in danger, 
that he *was* tied up with Voldemort and a prophecy and all of that 
stuff in such a way that it really would be important for the White 
Hat Cause to help ensure this kid learned everything he could, in the 
classroom and in life.  (That should NOT have Snape's burden alone, 
but let's face it, Snape was gifted, talented, and in a unique 
position as an ex-DE and a person in Voldy's inner circle to be 
especially useful this way.)

Still, back to Snape vs. Lupin and the Occlumency thing.  I know you 
were joking about taking Lupin's trick as his own, but the key to me 
was in the bit about different ways to Occlude and "letting Harry 
find his own way."  I don't see anything wrong, in principle, with 
letting Harry discover his own way
 but only *once* he's heard what 
those possible ways are!  Harry's told how very important this is, 
but then there was a lack of specifics from Snape, along with his 
quick annoyance & frustration with Harry, when he hadn't provided him 
with much background at *all* on this very complex and difficult 
Legilimency/Occlumency duo.  

That's where I would have liked to have seen, not Lupin's 
chocolate ;), but Lupin's relative calmness, patience & encouragement 
with his pupil.  

So in *that* sense I would argue that Snape's teaching style wasn't a 
good match for Harry's learning style.  If that makes sense.

 
Zara:
> I think Lupin's "trick" only worked because Harry wanted to learn 
> the specific skill he wheedled Lupin into teaching him. This was 
> clearly not the case with Occlumency.

SSSusan:
This is a good point.  I just think that Harry *was* interested in 
Occlumency, too.  He asked questions, he wanted to understand.  Snape 
cut him short at times and got quickly frustrated with him.  That's 
where, imo, their storied mutual bad history got in the way and it 
was essentially all over.   

Or, like Alla said:
> I mean, Harry did not want to learn Occlumency much. What I am 
> saying is that Snape contributed enormously to that unwillingness 
> and somebody more capable and more able to adjust to Harry's 
> learning style would be able to overcome that.
 
Montavilla47:
> I'm trying to think about another subject that Harry was unwilling 
> to learn, but I can't think of one.
> 
> Otherwise, Harry's ability to learn a subject seems dependent on the
> teacher. He excels at classes where he likes the teacher 
> (Tranfiguration, Charms, COMC, and Herbology), does an average job 
> in the subject where the teacher is so unremarkable that he never 
> talks about him/her (Astrology), and does poorly in subjects there 
> the teachers are boring or generally annoying (History and 
> Divination, although of course his grade is worsened in History 
> when he has to leave early).
 
Carol:
> Those things aside, I think that natural ability and enjoyment of a
> subject are as important with regard to Harry's performance in at
> least some classes as the teacher. Madam Hooch's teaching abilities
> are irrelevant to his learning to fly. He excels at it
.He learns 
> DADA, not because he has good teachers (with the exception of Lupin 
> and Snape,the DADA teachers range from mediocre to abysmal) but 
> because he's highly motivated
. He's also motivated by the Prince's 
> book. He likes doing well in Potions thanks to the improved 
> instructions (and getting credit where credit is not due), and he 
> also learns the spells almost effortlessly, motivated, it seems, by 
> curiosity and enjoyment (and, ironically, by affection for his 
> friend, the Prince). 

SSSusan:
I tend to agree with Carol, although I still think that, while 
*liking* the teacher wasn't necessarily going to be the big factor in 
whether Harry learned well, big-time *disliking* turned out to be a 
big factor.  The only professor he hated was Snape, and I believe we 
saw that seriously interfere with his interest in learning, and 
Snape's reciprocal hatred was a significant cause for that as well.

 
Pippin:
<SNIP>
> Dumbledore could certainly order Snape to act as if he liked Harry.
> But I really do not see how that would help.
 
Alla:
> First of all I do not need Dumbledore order Snape to act as if he 
> liked Harry. That would be nice, but I really do not think Snape is 
> capable of human kindness to anybody but Lily and maybe Malfoys?. I 
> want Dumbledore to order Snape to act as if he was ANY other 
> student in his class, would be nice if he included Neville and 
> Hermione in there.  I think it would help Harry to be much more 
> capable student if Snape refrained from his bullying and just 
> taught.

SSSusan:
You have to admit, it would have been interesting if DD had ordered 
that of Snape! :)

I think Alla has a point that DD could certainly have instructed 
Snape to treat Harry the same way he treated all the rest.  The 
problem was, his inclination was really to treat him differently 
(i.e., much more poorly & prejudicially).  I'd have liked to have 
seen Snape do a little tweaking of his methods to better meet Harry's 
needs, but honestly, I think I'd have settled for his just treating 
him the same ? consistently, not openly begrudgingly, not sneeringly, 
the same.

Siriusly Snapey Susan,
who's remembering how hard it is to keep up at this place!







From juli17 at aol.com  Fri Feb 13 04:07:47 2009
From: juli17 at aol.com (julie)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 04:07:47 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation  LONG
In-Reply-To: <gn1r2q+ojtl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn2rmj+10052@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185796


> Montavilla47:
> <SNIP
> I'm trying to think about another subject that Harry was unwilling 
to
> learn, but I can't think of one. The closest I can come to one is 
when
> Dumbledore assigns Harry the "homework" of getting Slughorn's
> memory. And it's not that Harry is unwilling, it's that it's more
> difficult than Harry anticipated.trying to think about another 
subject 
> that Harry was unwilling to
> learn, but I can't think of one. The closest I can come to one is 
when
> Dumbledore assigns Harry the "homework" of getting Slughorn's
> memory. And it's not that Harry is unwilling, it's that it's more
> difficult than Harry anticipated. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I think this is sort of proves the point that good teacher can make 
> Harry do something he is really not enthusiastic of doing. Harry 
fails, 
> he comes up to Dumbledore, tells him he had all those problems and 
> Dumbledore makes him willing to go try again with several 
sentences. 
> IMO of course.


Julie:
I don't think the two situations are directly analogous. 
Harry wasn't enthusiastic about getting Slughorn's memory
because it was too hard. He'd rather avoid it than have
to deal with it. Eventually Dumbledore gets Harry to try
harder, which he does by making Harry feel guilty for not
taking it all seriously enough and for failing.

With the Occlumency lessons, it isn't just that Harry finds
it too hard and would rather avoid it, it is that he actively
WANTS to fail. Desperately. He wants *exactly* the opposite
of what he knows Occlumency is supposed to achieve; Harry
wants his mind opened further so he can open that enticing
door. And when Hermione tries the exact same approach as
Dumbledore, laying guilt on Harry and reminding him of how
serious the situation is, Harry goes off on her. He isn't
just avoiding learning, he is very deliberately refusing
to learn or try (beyond a token effort or two).

But you asked if Harry could have learned Occlumency from
someone else, and given his intentional refusal to learn
ny answer is a qualified "no." Qualified, because while 
I'm certain Harry would keep his desire to find a way through
that door from McGonagall or Lupin (had either been qualified
to teach him Occlumency), I do think Dumbledore might have
been able to teach Harry, if only because of Dumbledore's
legilimency and ability to read Harry in particular. (Lupin
would take Harry's word about anything, McGonagall might 
doubt but wouldn't press the issue, Snape would--and did--
fly off the handle at Harry's insistence he was doing his
best when he clearly wasn't.) Dumbledore still would have
had to exert a lot of pressure to get Harry to come clean
about the dreams and learn Occlumency though.

Snape surely wasn't the best person to teach Harry, but
in those scenes I actually found Snape behaving markedly
better toward Harry than he did during regular Potions
lessons ("That wasn't as bad as it could have been." and
"Whose dog was that?", the latter asked without a trace
of malice noted). And Harry behaved markedly worse, not
really trying at all, whereas in Potions he usually did 
make the effort, even if Snape couldn't see it or didn't
care. 

So here's my question. If Harry hadn't been so determined
to get behind that door, if he had been willing to learn,
at least as willing as in Potions where he did try but got
discouraged by Snape's nasty attitude, would he have been
able to learn from this marginally kinder--or let's even 
say this merely "not outright mean"--Snape? I think the
answer is "yes."

In the end, the situation simply got away from them. Snape
actually toned down his meanness a bit but still had no
interest in understanding, nor capacity to empathize with,
Harry's reluctance, while Harry was equally incapable of
resisting Voldemort's mental manipulations, or of seeking
or heeding anyone else's advice or assistance. (They were
hemmed in as much by their individual personalities as by
their antagonistic relationship, IMO, which is why I don't
see Lupin successfully teaching Harry Occlumency nor
dissuading Harry from pursuing more Voldemort-induced
dreams.) IMO,


Julie 




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 07:33:03 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 07:33:03 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn2r31+bvad@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn37nf+d58v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185797

> Montavilla47:
> > Well, didn't Harry actually do his (potentially) best work when 
> > Snape was angriest with him? The one time Harry thought he really 
> > got a potion right was after the SWM incident. Of course, any 
> > teaching value that had was erased by Snape's so unprofessional 
> > behavior when the vial was broken (whether he broke it or whether 
> > it was broken accidentally).
> 
> SSSusan:
> And this is kind of my point.  Let's go with that example and see 
> where it gets us.  For once Harry determined he'd better really focus 
> and get the potion right.  He buckled down and he did so.  Even if 
> Snape was incapable of praising or acknowledging the effort, he could 
> have just accepted the potion and gone on without comment.  
> 
> Perhaps a corner would have been turned and Harry would've learned 
> that, if he tried hard enough and shut up, they could tolerate one 
> another.  But no, the vial "slips," Snape issues that "oops," and in 
> an instant, additional damage has been done to their already damaged 
> relationship.  

Montavilla47:
Of course I agree that what Snape did was petty, childish, and completely
unprofessional.  See above.  But your point (or Jkoney's) was that Snape's 
"style" did not work with Harry as a student and so Snape should have 
adapted his style.  My point was that, personal relationship aside,
Harry responded as well to Snape's harsh methods of teaching as well
as he did to teachers that he considered friendlier, more fair, and
plain old nicer.  The proof was in the test results on his O.W.L.s.

If Snape's style as a teacher was that damaging, then Harry would
not have gotten an E on his test--it wasn't like he was secretly 
leading a Potions study group that year.

> SSSusan:
> I've heard the arguments, but I'll never be convinced Snape did not 
> intentionally drop the vial, and I believe JKR wrote it the way she 
> did for us to receive the implication that he did so.  That was 
> exceptionally childish and, as you said, it was unprofessional.  It 
> wiped out any chance of turning things around.  So, see, Harry tried 
> something different (heh ? actually concentrating, working hard, not 
> arguing), but Snape couldn't rise to the same level and, imo, made 
> the chasm even greater by how he treated Harry.  WORSE than square 
> one, then.

Montavilla47:
I'd like to think that Snape didn't--and he was only being somewhat
petty, instead of completely petty at that moment.  But I agree that
it can go either way and I'm not even going to try to argue that it
doesn't.  

But I'm not sure why Snape would have any interest in a relationship 
with Harry at that point.  The Occlumency lessons were over.  He had 
only to endure a few more weeks and Harry would be out of his life 
forever--except for that part about protecting Harry.  And I'm sure
Snape thought he could do that whether they were friendly or not--
since he'd been doing it for four years without them ever being
friendly.  It wasn't like Harry was ever going to thank him or anything.


> Montavilla47:
> > I'm not sure we can blame Snape entirely for Harrys failure to
> > learn Occlumency. He's definitely not patient with Harry, but
> > it's clear to me that Snape is trying very hard in the lessons. He
> > does acknowledge when Harry makes progress, and he answers
> > Harrry's questions.
> 
> SSSusan:
> I *don't* blame Snape entirely.  In fact, imo, the *first* Occlumency 
> lesson was Snape's shining moment as a teacher of Harry.  While not 
> patient by many people's standards, that was the most patient I think 
> we'd seen him; and while not totally forthcoming (especially with 
> explicit hints & suggestions), he did manage to provide some answers 
> to Harry.  I was hopeful at the start of that lesson!  But, alas, due 
> to a combination of Snape's & Harry's behaviors, and, I'd allege, 
> their history, it went downhill from there.

Montavilla47:
I apologize for attributing that to you.  I think I might have been
responding as much to others on the list as to your point.  I agree
that the first Occlumency lesson was Snape's shining moment.


> Montavilla47:
> > And you are right to put the higher burden on the teacher. But if 
> > you are going to condemn Snape not teaching Harry enough, I think 
> > it's only fair to point out that Snape actually taught Harry quite 
> > a bit.
> <snip>
> 
> SSSusan:
> But I *did* point out Snape taught Harry some things and I *didn't* 
> blame Snape entirely!  It's right there in the quote above ? "This is 
> not at all to downplay the important things he did teach, the 
> important things Harry learned from *or* because of Snape."  To me, I 
> did acknowledge what Snape did.

Montavilla47:
I apologize again.  I worded that wrong.  I should have said "if WE are
going to condemn" rather than "If YOU are going to condemn," because
that wasn't actually directed at you.  I was trying to explain why I 
think it's important to balance Snape's obvious faults as a teacher
with the things he actually managed to accomplish.

> SSSusan:
> It would seem to me quite reasonable to say that the *initial* 
> problems here began with Snape, that he failed in the bearing of more 
> of the burden, that he was largely to blame for establishing a 
> pattern with Harry that Harry would then do his own part to 
> exacerbate and continue.  Snape behaved poorly and did not give the 
> kid a chance.  

Montavilla47:
I agree that Snape initiated the antagonism.  But I'm not sure he
didn't give Harry a chance.  I think the questions he asked may
have been (in his mind) a chance for Harry to show him... something.
I'm not at all sure what he was looking for.  Maybe an enthusiasm
like Lily had, maybe an eagerness to learn.  But it certainly wasn't
Harry's fault that he didn't get it.  

And, of course, any child deserves more than one chance to make
a good impression.


> jkoney:
> > I do blame Snape for not being able to adjust his teaching style. If
> > a student isn't progressing with the first way you are teaching 
> > there must be another way to get the point across so they can learn.
> >
> > Harry's learning style seems completely opposite to the way Snape
> > teaches. He eventually learns to block Voldemort out doing the exact
> > opposite of what Snape tells him. His way of handling dementors also
> > is different.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> > You're mixing up two different things here. Learning styles vs. 
> > teaching style is different from Harry's way of blocking Voldemort 
> > vs. Snape's method. Also, Snape didn't insist on Harry using on 
> > method to block Voldemort's mind-probes. In fact, Harry was annoyed 
> > because Snape didn't tell him exactly how to block Legilimency at 
> > first--which argues that Snape was aware that there were different 
> > ways to Occlude and was willing to let Harry find the method that 
> > worked best *for Harry.*
> > Now, maybe Snape should have tried using Lupin's trick. Instead
> > of continuing to tutor the unwilling Harry, he should have suggested
> > that it was too difficult, given Harry some chocolate, and told him
> > to give it up.
> >
> > That would be employing a different teaching style. But, as your
> > point that Harry's learning style is unsuited to Snape's style, I'm
> > not so sure about that.
> 
> SSSusan:
> I think there is something to what jkoney wrote.  It's of course true 
> that teaching styles and learning styles are two different things, 
> but I agree that a teacher *can* find alternate means of working with 
> students when it's discovered that a student's not getting 
> something.  Now, that does NOT sound like anything Snape would ever 
> have been interested in doing for very many of his students!  Still, 
> while I understand what's been presented about Snape not fully 
> knowing how vital it was that Harry learn how to defend himself 
> against Voldemort, I still maintain that by 2nd or 3rd year, he knew 
> the kids WAS in danger and would likely continue to be in danger, 
> that he *was* tied up with Voldemort and a prophecy and all of that 
> stuff in such a way that it really would be important for the White 
> Hat Cause to help ensure this kid learned everything he could, in the 
> classroom and in life.  (That should NOT have Snape's burden alone, 
> but let's face it, Snape was gifted, talented, and in a unique 
> position as an ex-DE and a person in Voldy's inner circle to be 
> especially useful this way.)

Montavilla47:
You may have hit upon something that has remained a puzzle for
me for years--why Snape kept applying for that D.A.D.A. position.
Snape was quite successful at teaching potions (based on the number
of students who received Os on their O.W.L.s).  Why would he keep
applying for the D.A.D.A. job when Dumbledore continued to turn 
him down for it?  

As a Potions teacher, Snape was charged with preparing Harry to
make potions.  How this was going to help Harry fulfill that prophecy,
I don't know.  Unless he and Voldemort decided to compete in a 
Potion-Off.

But honestly, I don't think Snape was thinking about Harry actually
fighting Voldemort until it became obvious (from GoF onwards), that
Voldemort was back.  I think (and it's just my opinion) that Snape
would have preferred to keep Harry in a little box, if he could.  

I"m probably wrong about this, but my suspicion is that Snape
kept pushing the "expell Harry" idea because he thought Harry
would be safer at the Dursleys--and he didn't give a darn whether
or not Harry was *happy* there.  He never promised to ensure
Harry's happiness--only his safety.

Of course, in OotP, it became evident that the protections 
placed on the Dursley house could not protect Harry and he
was better off at Hogwarts.  And, oddly, Snape never suggests
once in OotP that Harry ought to be expelled.

> SSSusan:
> Still, back to Snape vs. Lupin and the Occlumency thing.  I know you 
> were joking about taking Lupin's trick as his own, but the key to me 
> was in the bit about different ways to Occlude and "letting Harry 
> find his own way."  I don't see anything wrong, in principle, with 
> letting Harry discover his own way
 but only *once* he's heard what 
> those possible ways are!  Harry's told how very important this is, 
> but then there was a lack of specifics from Snape, along with his 
> quick annoyance & frustration with Harry, when he hadn't provided him 
> with much background at *all* on this very complex and difficult 
> Legilimency/Occlumency duo.  

Montavilla47:
I understand what you are saying.  Lupin certainly explained 
things better in terms of what Dementors are, how they work,
and what a Patronus would do.

But I'm not sure it's really fair to compare the two situations. 
Lupin didn't have the same constraints on him that Snape did.
It wasn't like the Dementors could be spying in on the session
in order to pick up information that Dumbledore wanted kept
secret.

Also, let's face it.  If you are going to compare Lupin and Snape 
as teachers, then Snape is always going to end up looking worse.  
He's just not as good a teacher as Lupin. I think that goes without 
saying.  


> SSSusan:
> That's where I would have liked to have seen, not Lupin's 
> chocolate ;), but Lupin's relative calmness, patience & encouragement 
> with his pupil.  
> 
> So in *that* sense I would argue that Snape's teaching style wasn't a 
> good match for Harry's learning style.  If that makes sense.


Montavilla47:
I agree that it wasn't as good a match as Lupin's.  Of course, my
point wasn't that it was.  My point was that *how* you learn is
separate from *what* you learn.  That Harry used different 
methods to block Dementors and Legilimency than Snape advised
using doesn't mean that Snape's style was substandard.  It simply
meant that Harry preferred alternate methods.

> Carol:
> > Those things aside, I think that natural ability and enjoyment of a
> > subject are as important with regard to Harry's performance in at
> > least some classes as the teacher. Madam Hooch's teaching abilities
> > are irrelevant to his learning to fly. He excels at it
.He learns 
> > DADA, not because he has good teachers (with the exception of Lupin 
> > and Snape,the DADA teachers range from mediocre to abysmal) but 
> > because he's highly motivated
. He's also motivated by the Prince's 
> > book. He likes doing well in Potions thanks to the improved 
> > instructions (and getting credit where credit is not due), and he 
> > also learns the spells almost effortlessly, motivated, it seems, by 
> > curiosity and enjoyment (and, ironically, by affection for his 
> > friend, the Prince). 
> 
> SSSusan:
> I tend to agree with Carol, although I still think that, while 
> *liking* the teacher wasn't necessarily going to be the big factor in 
> whether Harry learned well, big-time *disliking* turned out to be a 
> big factor.  The only professor he hated was Snape, and I believe we 
> saw that seriously interfere with his interest in learning, and 
> Snape's reciprocal hatred was a significant cause for that as well.

Montavilla47:
Harry also hated Umbridge.  He disliked Trelawney intensely and
disliked Binns in a lukewarm fashion.  He also disliked Lockhart.

I don't think Harry dislike of Snape interfered at all in his interest
in learning Potions.  He never had an interest in learning Potions.
It wasn't like Harry was eagerly drinking in his Potions textbook
before his first class--because if he had, he might have been 
able to answer at least one of the questions Snape posed.  

Moreover, when Harry has a different teacher (Slughorn, who
is only somewhat disliked by Harry), and the funny, inventive
Prince, Harry *still* isn't interested in Potions.  He's interested
in getting praise and treats.  Once he loses the book that gives
him the answers, he's back to doing mediocre work with no
sign that he desires to do better.





From mros at xs4all.nl  Fri Feb 13 10:51:29 2009
From: mros at xs4all.nl (marionrosnl)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:51:29 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn37nf+d58v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn3jbh+1ii2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185798

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "montavilla47" 
<montavilla47 at ...> wrote:

> 
> Also, let's face it.  If you are going to compare Lupin and Snape 
> as teachers, then Snape is always going to end up looking worse.  
> He's just not as good a teacher as Lupin. I think that goes 
without 
> saying.  


Marion

For a while I've been lurking again, because RL is very busy and I 
just don't have the time to get into these discussions like I used 
to, but I can't let this one slide - it's been said so many times 
before that Lupin is a good teacher and I utterly disagree with that.

Lupin is an awful teacher. Now, it might just be because I'm from an 
older generation, but unlike the kids who grew up in the nineties 
and the noughties, I *don't* think that bloating a kid's already big 
head by giving him praise and *sweeties* somehow constitutes 'being 
a good teacher'. In fact, my classmates and I would've taken Lupin's 
measure from the moment he deliberately uses the children to 
humiliate and belittle a fellow teacher during that boggart class. 
My god, but we were little bloodhounds. Kids have an instinct for 
powerlines and status. We would've interpreted that display for what 
it was; a pathetic attempt from an adult to ingratiate himself to 
his class by humiliating a fellow adult, one who is disliked by that 
class. We would've smelled the desperation and condemned him for a 
weakling. Oh, we would've laughed, for sure, but we would have 
smelled the vulnarability of Lupin. He is so desperate to be *liked* 
by the children, it paints a big bullseye on his back. We would've 
fallen on to him like a pack of rabid wolves. 

Now Snape exudes plenty of vulnarability as well.
>From the first book, when everybody was whining about how 'mean' 
Snape was, my overwhelming impression was how *lonely* the man was. 
He has *no* support from his Headmaster. He gets *no* support from 
his fellow teachers.
As I said, kids have a flawless instinct for power.
Harry is unto this from day one.

First Potions lesson, when Snape keeps a whole classroom mesmerized, 
Harry and Ron pull faces at eachother (they look at eachother and 
pull up their eyebrows, which, in British mime means 'who is this 
weirdo?'). When Snape, seeing this, turns unto unruly (he's not 
listening like the rest, does he think that being lauded as the Boy 
Who Lived exempts him from paying attention in class?) student like 
he is supposed to (because this is a *school* where children are 
*taught* important skills, not a kindergarten where the main purpose 
is to kiss booboos away and get the children to take a nap after 
lunch) Harry cheeks him. Snape takes away a point, and no 
consequenses follow. Harry gets the message clearly every time he 
breaks a rule, or cheeks Snape, messes up other children's potions 
or sneaks around, snooping; he is above the Law and especially, he 
is above Snape. Everybody is above Snape, apparantly.
In fact, everytime Snape exerts his authority as a teacher, he is 
shot down, humiliated, made seem ridiculous for even *wanting* to 
get recognition as a teacher and authority figure. The author makes 
sure of that.

And boy, does it work! The mainstream of the readers, indeed many on 
this list, seem to think Snape ridiculous for wanting to be 
called 'Sir', for instance. But he is an adult and Harry is a boy. 
It is common courtesy for a British child to call any adult 
male 'sir', and for a British schoolboy it is *mandatory* to call 
his teacher 'sir'. That Harry doesn't is a deliberate act of 
contempt. He isn't 'brave' or 'cool' for showing contempt to the 
teacher it is seemingly okay to hate because 'everybody does it'. It 
isn't 'childish' from Snape to fight for dominance in the classroom. 
He is *supposed* to have dominance in the classroom. He is the 
teacher! 

Snape is hanging in there by his teeth, though. It's what I like 
about him. He gets *no* support, he is all alone, the concences of 
Hogwarts seems to be that it is okay to hate and spit upon the weird 
man with the weird hair from the dungeons, but he keeps insisting 
upon his dignity. He keeps insisting that he is the teacher, and he 
keeps trying to teach the children, even if he has to ram the 
curriculum down their throats with sarcasm and wit.
He is like one of those cops from those movies or shows, where they 
are trying to uphold the law in areas where crime is so rife that 
other cops have given up. "No," they say, "I don't care if you have 
connections with the maffia, I don't care that you will be running 
around free again because our corrupted Judge, I will still arrest 
you because you Broke The Law and justice must be served otherwise 
all will descend into chaos."
I like Snape because he keeps on going. Everybody hates him, God 
knows he hates himself, but still he is going to save Lily's child, 
no matter what a rotten kid he is, and he is going to do his job to 
the best of his ability (and he is very able, seeing his results) 

But JKR, and most of the readers, seem to think otherwise. 
Apparantly it isn't important that children learn something. No, 
what is important is *that the teachers are nice to Harry*.
It isn't important that children grow up to be responsible, 
reliable, honest adults. No, it's important that Harry gets coddled, 
given choccies when he fails.

Its ironic, isn't it? Apparantly, when Harry was a small boy, he 
went to a Muggle school, where he was singled out as the 'weird 
boy', the cootie kid with the glasses and the hair. The staff seems 
to be on the Dursley side. The kids went 'Harry hunting' with 
Dudley. Dudley, in the mean time, gets all he wants. His mommy 
kisses his booboos away. She calls him ickle pet names, she gives 
him attention. To the Dursleys, the world is made up into Good 
People and Bad People, and the division is made by measuring how 
nice people are to the Dursleys in general and Dudley in particular.
We are told that the Dursleys are Bad for glorifying Dudley, who is 
nothing special, after all. Only a dull, stupid, fat, spoilt little 
boy.
Then Harry enters Hogwarts, and suddenly the author decides that the 
Good People of the WW are separated and clearly defined by virtue of 
them being *nice* to *Harry*! Those who give Harry chocholate and 
sweets are Good, those who give discipline are Bad. Those who pet 
his swollen head are Good, those who try to deflate it are Bad. All 
the while we get stressed every book that Harry is *not* an ordinary 
boy at all. No, he's special. But at the mean time we are shown a 
boy who is mediocre at best at school (and getting dumber by the 
year, by Gum! does DH Harry even remember how to tie his shoelaces? 
He couldn't even remember where he saw a picture before after having 
seen it just the previous chapter!!) We get shown a boy who jumped 
onto the Slytherin-hating bandwagon even before ever meeting one 
*because everybody hates them*!
One would think that after showing Harry to have been the cootie kid 
versus Dudley the Golden Boy, the author would've taken pains to 
show that in the WW, where Harry is the Golden Boy, Harry would've 
handled things better than Dudley. But no, the message is apparantly 
that the Dursleys weren't exactly wrong for coddling a Special Boy, 
but that they are wrong for coddling the wrong Special Boy! They 
should've coddled Harry instead, since he is the True Special Boy TM!

So why exactly was Lupin such a good teacher again?
- Because he was Nice to Harry, by telling him how nice his dad was, 
and by giving him special treatment and giving him loads of 
chocolate.
- Because he dislikes Snape (which earns him points, apparantly)
- Because he 'was the best DADA teacher Harry ever had' (according 
to Harry, that is)
and finally, according to some
- Because he was Nice to Neville (but was he? Nice to Neville, I 
mean. As if Neville hasn't been made the laughing stock enough, he 
is called upon to expose his - childish, unfounded - fears, which 
get laughed at by the class, and is then used by the teacher to make 
a dig at another teacher)

I don't think this makes Lupin such a great teacher. In fact, I 
think his stunt with boggart-Snape is immensely petty and childish. 
Its also a nail in his own coffin, because teachers should form an 
united front, no matter how disliked another teacher is by students 
and staff alike. By his public attack on a fellow teacher he 
diminishes himself in his pupils eyes (well, he would in Real Life), 
and in Real Life he would've been severely reprimanded by the 
Headmaster for that stunt.
His singling out of Harry, giving him special lessons, as the child 
of his old schoolchum (who said something again about Slytherin 
nepotism?) doesn't give him browniepoints with me because I don't 
think that 'being nice to the kids of old friends' is a particular 
virtue in schoolmasters.
And really, being nice to Neville? Fake!Moody was Nice To Neville. 
As if that is a sign of a Good Teacher!

More damning, Lupin Wants To Be Liked. JKR even stated so in her 
interviews. Well, I've seen teachers like that, and they usually 
don't last long, and when they do they are disillusioned and all the 
more sarcastic for it. I've seen a teacher who Wanted To Be Liked 
chased from her classroom, being pelted by erasers, pens and wads of 
paper.

Sorry to get up people's noses, as I'm sure this post will do, but 
imo Lupin is a Bad Teacher. I'm afraid, though, that JKR thinks 
differently about this, but this is because I value different things 
that her. 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 12:04:21 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 12:04:21 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn3jbh+1ii2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn3nk5+3d2n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185799

Marion:
<SNIP>
First Potions lesson, when Snape keeps a whole classroom mesmerized, 
Harry and Ron pull faces at each other (they look at each other and
pull up their eyebrows, which, in British mime means 'who is this
weirdo?'). When Snape, seeing this, turns unto unruly 
 < SNIP of the 
end of the sentence and the rest of  the post>

Alla:

Um, no, I am afraid Snape turns into unruly way before Harry and Ron 
look at each other with raised eyebrows. Not that I think that 
looking at each other with raised eyebrows deserves the crap that 
Snape gave him. However  here is the canon:

"Snape, like Flitwick, started  the class by taking the roll call, 
and like Flitwick, he paused at Harry's name.
"Ah, yes," he said softly, "Harry Potter. Our new ?  celebrity" 
(emphasis in the book on the word celebrity which I cannot do here) 

So, it is page 136 in my paperback American edition. Class just 
started. Harry did nothing yet, absolutely nothing, no look, no talk 
(not that I agree that it was a cheek), no absolutely NOTHING.

And Snape already makes a comment.  So, the look that they give each 
other **after** Snape's speech on page 137 of my book (Harry and Ron 
exchanged looks with raised eyebrows), which you interpret as who is 
this weirdo, I interpret as a a surprise of the kid of why this 
teacher singled me out,






From magnolia11875 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 04:59:17 2009
From: magnolia11875 at yahoo.com (magnolia11875)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 04:59:17 -0000
Subject: Dark Mark
Message-ID: <gn2un5+39h2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185800

Heya!

I'm trying to figure out all I can about the Dark Mark, the one
branded onto the Death Eaters, not the mark sent into the air.  I'm
trying to come up with some way to logically block or remove or
something the Dark Mark, you see, but I need to know what we know for
sure what we actually know.  All the help anyone can give would be
completely awesome beyond all measure.  Hugs!

Tabs




From danjerri at madisoncounty.net  Fri Feb 13 13:48:41 2009
From: danjerri at madisoncounty.net (Jerri&Dan Chase)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 07:48:41 -0600
Subject: question about crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <1234523971.1671.34053.m46@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1234523971.1671.34053.m46@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <67E8BB2EE1274D2C8A37831F438F231C@JerriPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 185801


>Carol, who wonders if Sirius Black would have been a little less
>lonely and depressed if Hermione had left Crookshanks with him
>in 12 GP

I feel that it might well have helped, which is why JKR couldn't allow it to 
happen!

I certainly expected Crookshanks to play a more important role in the final 
books, rather than just disappearing.  (At least he didn't suffer the fate 
of poor Hedwig!)  Once I learned from Fantastic Beasts and JKR's interviews 
and/or web site that Crookshanks, like Mrs. Figg's cats was part Kneazle and 
that Kneazle's had all the wonderful attributes described in FB, I felt sure 
that Crookshanks could be of substantial assistance at some point.  Instead, 
his high point seems to have been in PoA.  The "uncanny ability to detect 
unsavoury or suspicious characters" could have been of great use at Godric's 
Hollow, for example.  And they were also supposed to "guide its owner safely 
home if they are lost" seemed potentially important also.  (Quotes taken 
from the Kneazle entry of FB.)

Jerri





From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Feb 13 14:11:44 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:11:44 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn37nf+d58v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn3v30+rr3s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185802

SSSusan earlier:
> Perhaps a corner would have been turned and Harry would've learned
> that, if he tried hard enough and shut up, they could tolerate one
> another. But no, the vial "slips," Snape issues that "oops," and in
> an instant, additional damage has been done to their already damaged
> relationship.

Montavilla47:
> Of course I agree that what Snape did was petty, childish, and 
> completely unprofessional. See above. But your point (or Jkoney's) 
> was that Snape's "style" did not work with Harry as a student and 
> so Snape should have adapted his style. My point was that, personal 
> relationship aside, Harry responded as well to Snape's harsh 
> methods of teaching as well as he did to teachers that he 
> considered friendlier, more fair, and plain old nicer. The proof 
> was in the test results on his O.W.L.s.
>
> If Snape's style as a teacher was that damaging, then Harry would
> not have gotten an E on his test--it wasn't like he was secretly
> leading a Potions study group that year.

SSSusan:
I actually disagree that the E is proof of Snape's teaching ability 
or of a decent match of his teaching style to Harry's learning 
style.  My original point was that I don't believe Harry learned to 
the best of his ability and that a *part* of the reason why, imo, was 
Snape's treatment of him.  

A lot of people think that that "E" Harry received was actually 
indicative of how much Harry *could* do with Potions if he were not 
constantly under the gun with Snape.  "E" = Exceeds Expectations, and 
Harry certainly did exceed his, and in receiving it, made people 
wonder if he was actually capable of much more, could he get past his 
relationship with his Potions master.


SSSusan earlier:
> I've heard the arguments, but I'll never be convinced Snape did not
> intentionally drop the vial, and I believe JKR wrote it the way she
> did for us to receive the implication that he did so. That was
> exceptionally childish and, as you said, it was unprofessional. It
> wiped out any chance of turning things around. So, see, Harry tried
> something different (heh ? actually concentrating, working hard, not
> arguing), but Snape couldn't rise to the same level and, imo, made
> the chasm even greater by how he treated Harry. WORSE than square
> one, then.

Montavilla47:
> I'd like to think that Snape didn't--and he was only being somewhat
> petty, instead of completely petty at that moment. But I agree that
> it can go either way and I'm not even going to try to argue that it
> doesn't.
>
> But I'm not sure why Snape would have any interest in a relationship
> with Harry at that point. The Occlumency lessons were over. He had
> only to endure a few more weeks and Harry would be out of his life
> forever--except for that part about protecting Harry. And I'm sure
> Snape thought he could do that whether they were friendly or not--
> since he'd been doing it for four years without them ever being
> friendly. It wasn't like Harry was ever going to thank him or 
> anything.

SSSusan:
Sorry, I should probably not have used the word "relationship" 
there.  I didn't mean to imply a friendship or some special bond 
between the two.  I was intending to refer to the teacher-student 
relationship.   And, see, I think that by this point ? after DD had 
insisted that Snape teach Harry Occlumency, after Snape received the 
insights he did from those aborted sessions about just how dangerous 
things were becoming in the Harry-Voldemort `relationship' [ack, 
can't find a better word!], then, again, I would think that Snape 
would be really GETTING it that he has to set aside his own personal 
feelings and petty annoyances and, for the good of the cause, work 
with Harry.  Less on potions, probably, and more just not demeaning 
the kid every chance he gets, not berating and insulting him.  

That 5th year, to me, was the moment ? close to the final chance for 
the two of them to get over their past history and start focusing on 
how to prepare for another VW.  That they both couldn't... that Snape 
not only couldn't continue the Occlumency lessons but also took, imo, 
his anger back into the classroom with him with the vial, absolutely 
sealed it. :(


Montavilla47:
> I apologize again. I worded that wrong. I should have said "if WE 
> are going to condemn" rather than "If YOU are going to condemn," 
> because that wasn't actually directed at you. I was trying to 
> explain why I think it's important to balance Snape's obvious 
> faults as a teacher with the things he actually managed to 
> accomplish.

SSSusan:
Thanks for explaining.  I appreciate that. 


SSSusan earlier:
> It would seem to me quite reasonable to say that the *initial*
> problems here began with Snape, that he failed in the bearing of 
> more of the burden, that he was largely to blame for establishing a
> pattern with Harry that Harry would then do his own part to
> exacerbate and continue. Snape behaved poorly and did not give the
> kid a chance.

Montavilla47:
> I agree that Snape initiated the antagonism. But I'm not sure he
> didn't give Harry a chance. I think the questions he asked may
> have been (in his mind) a chance for Harry to show him... something.
> I'm not at all sure what he was looking for. Maybe an enthusiasm
> like Lily had, maybe an eagerness to learn. But it certainly wasn't
> Harry's fault that he didn't get it.
>
> And, of course, any child deserves more than one chance to make
> a good impression.

SSSusan:
Exactly!!  It's your last comment which resonates with me.  If Snape 
*was* checking things out, seeing what the kid knew or looking for 
enthusiasm, maybe seeing if Harry was a cocky little celebrity prat, 
then it should have been pretty apparent from the encounter that 
Harry had no clue about the things Snape asked him.  Poor Harry!  
Unless you're Hermione, lol, how do you show enthusiasm eagerness 
when you're totally blindsided? and being grilled by someone who's 
shooting daggers at you?  

Snape, imo, should have seen that his interrogation (for that's how 
it appeared to me) didn't "work" and the kid DID deserve another 
chance.  ANY kid that first day ? particularly one from a Muggle 
home ? would have deserved that much.


SSSusan earlier:
> Still, while I understand what's been presented about Snape not 
> fully knowing how vital it was that Harry learn how to defend 
> himself against Voldemort, I still maintain that by 2nd or 3rd 
> year, he knew the kids WAS in danger and would likely continue to 
> be in danger, that he *was* tied up with Voldemort and a prophecy 
> and all of that stuff in such a way that it really would be 
> important for the White Hat Cause to help ensure this kid learned 
> everything he could, in the classroom and in life. (That should NOT 
> have Snape's burden alone, but let's face it, Snape was gifted, 
> talented, and in a unique position as an ex-DE and a person in 
> Voldy's inner circle to be especially useful this way.)

Montavilla47:
> You may have hit upon something that has remained a puzzle for
> me for years--why Snape kept applying for that D.A.D.A. position.
> Snape was quite successful at teaching potions (based on the number
> of students who received Os on their O.W.L.s). Why would he keep
> applying for the D.A.D.A. job when Dumbledore continued to turn
> him down for it?
>
> As a Potions teacher, Snape was charged with preparing Harry to
> make potions. How this was going to help Harry fulfill that 
> prophecy, I don't know. Unless he and Voldemort decided to compete 
> in a Potion-Off.
>
> But honestly, I don't think Snape was thinking about Harry actually
> fighting Voldemort until it became obvious (from GoF onwards), that
> Voldemort was back. I think (and it's just my opinion) that Snape
> would have preferred to keep Harry in a little box, if he could.

SSSusan:
Hee, yes, I agree that teaching him potions wasn't likely to be TOO 
directly significant in fending off Voldemort.  I think, though, that 
it was always likely that Snape could be, WOULD be able to teach 
Harry things that would be helpful in other ways ? the stuff they 
began to get to with Occlumency.  But by then, the teacher-student 
relationship was really damaged, and much of that can be traced back, 
imo, to the first lesson, the first year, the way Snape treated him 
so angrily, with such hatred, which *naturally* made Harry react in 
kind.


Montavilla:
> I'm probably wrong about this, but my suspicion is that Snape
> kept pushing the "expell Harry" idea because he thought Harry
> would be safer at the Dursleys--and he didn't give a darn whether
> or not Harry was *happy* there. He never promised to ensure
> Harry's happiness--only his safety.
>
> Of course, in OotP, it became evident that the protections
> placed on the Dursley house could not protect Harry and he
> was better off at Hogwarts. And, oddly, Snape never suggests
> once in OotP that Harry ought to be expelled.

SSSusan:
An interesting comment!  I hadn't thought about this possibility at 
all.  And I would love to hear more about whether people think Snape 
*would* have preferred to have kept Harry in a box, as it were.  

You're absolutely right that he never promised to try to keep or make 
Harry happy, only to protect him.  Truthfully, that's likely about 
all Severus Snape would have been capable of; it's just that I can't 
help but *wish* that he could have set aside the James & Lily stuff 
and *tried* to focus on Harry as himself, you know?  Not for 
friendship's sake, but for fairness's sake.  I think if Harry had 
been treated fairly ? meaning, the same way all other students were ? 
he'd have been more receptive to learning things from Snape, in class 
and out.  It's simple respect, really.  Snape had none for Harry, so 
Harry returned the favor.

Sorry, I'm digressing.  I really would like to know if others feel 
there's something to the idea that Snape would've liked to have just 
packed Harry up & sent him back to the Dursleys because he thought 
he'd be safer there.


Montavilla47:
> I understand what you are saying. Lupin certainly explained things 
> better in terms of what Dementors are, how they work, and what a 
> Patronus would do.
>
> But I'm not sure it's really fair to compare the two situations.
> Lupin didn't have the same constraints on him that Snape did.  It 
> wasn't like the Dementors could be spying in on the session in 
> order to pick up information that Dumbledore wanted kept secret.
>
> Also, let's face it. If you are going to compare Lupin and Snape
> as teachers, then Snape is always going to end up looking worse.
> He's just not as good a teacher as Lupin. I think that goes without
> saying.

SSSusan:
Heh, well, that *is* what I was saying.   Snape's not as good a 
teacher WITH HARRY and FOR HARRY as Lupin was.  (He might have been 
for Draco?)  That was key to the point I was making, so hence, I 
place some blame on Snape where others do not.  (And blame's maybe 
too strong a word; the whole thing's perhaps more accurately 
described as "a shame" more than "who's to blame," because once blame 
is in there, it becomes a battle of sides.)  


Montavilla47:
> I agree that it wasn't as good a match as Lupin's. Of course, my
> point wasn't that it was. My point was that *how* you learn is
> separate from *what* you learn. That Harry used different methods 
> to block Dementors and Legilimency than Snape advised using doesn't 
> mean that Snape's style was substandard. It simply meant that Harry 
> preferred alternate methods.

SSSusan:
Yes, and this is a good point.  If one gets the content, the "how" 
one got it isn't necessarily important.  Do you think Snape was aware 
of these alternate methods?  Do you think he should have explained 
the possibilities to Harry?  


SSSusan earlier:
> I tend to agree with Carol, although I still think that, while
> *liking* the teacher wasn't necessarily going to be the big factor 
> in whether Harry learned well, big-time *disliking* turned out to 
> be a big factor. The only professor he hated was Snape, and I 
> believe we saw that seriously interfere with his interest in 
> learning, and Snape's reciprocal hatred was a significant cause for 
> that as well.

Montavilla47:
> Harry also hated Umbridge. He disliked Trelawney intensely and
> disliked Binns in a lukewarm fashion. He also disliked Lockhart.
> I don't think Harry dislike of Snape interfered at all in his 
> interest in learning Potions. He never had an interest in learning 
> Potions.  It wasn't like Harry was eagerly drinking in his Potions 
> textbook before his first class--because if he had, he might have 
> been able to answer at least one of the questions Snape posed.


SSSusan:
Thanks for the reminder about Umbridge -- of course he hated her, 
too!  I'm not sure he disliked Trelawney intensely so much as he 
disliked the subject intensely.  

I'm not sure it's fair to say you can tell Harry didn't have any 
interest in potions, though, based upon his lack of drinking in his 
textbook before his first class.  We have no indication that he was 
drinking in *any* textbook before *any* class, do we?

I guess I'd ask, do we know that he never had any interest in 
potions?  Could it be that any interest he might have had was quashed 
early on by the way he was treated in that class?  I can't know that, 
of course, but it seems a distinct possibility.

We do know that DADA mattered very much to Harry and, you're right, 
in that subject, when he had a crappy teacher or one he despised, he 
found a way outside of class to continue to work on the subject.  He 
saw the relevance of the subject to his own life much more than he 
did Potions.

You know what I think this comes down to for me in a big way ? and 
this may be wholly unfair of me [I'm sure folks will let me know ;)] 
? is that I wanted Snape to teach Harry what he knew about Voldemort, 
what he knew about how to fight Voldemort.  When Harry needed to know 
certain things ? Patronus charm [tho he didn't know he needed to know 
it as much as he did need to, and benefited from it more than he knew 
he would], Occlumency, dueling skills ? I wanted him to be able to 
get answers to his questions, to be given instructions he could learn 
from.  Snape was Harry's potions master, but we readers all knew that 
he, DD & perhaps Moody & Lupin were the ones who could give the kids 
the *real* scoop, could help equip them with the real skills they 
were going to need.  

Harry was going to need them more than anyone, and it just kills me 
that, at that crucial moment in 5th year, when Harry needed to learn 
a vital skill, when they could have begun to actually work together 
for something that mattered more than an OWL score or a Potions 
grade, they couldn't get past their ugly, hate-filled, prejudicial 
past.  

So when I talk about Snape failing as a teacher, I *do* mean in the 
classroom ? in the early years when he was so unfair & unreasonable ? 
but I also mean when the time came for him to share his expertise and 
be that kind of a "life & death" teacher, it was doomed.  Harry's 
expectations & unwillingness factored heavily, but those were 
influenced by the way Snape had always treated him as a teacher in 
the classroom, you know?  It's like a viscious circle there.  If only 
X hadn't happened, then Y would have been possible.  And that's why, 
even though Harry carries a lot of the blame for Occlumency, if only 
Snape hadn't been such an ass from the get-go and had been the kind 
of teacher who just taught fairly, there might have been a shot for 
Occlumency.  IMHO, of course.

SSSusan, 
who wants to thank Montavilla for taking the time to respond, 'cause 
I feel like I understand her position much better :)







From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Feb 13 14:42:20 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:42:20 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn3jbh+1ii2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn40sc+7tvv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185803

Marion:
> Lupin is an awful teacher. Now, it might just be because I'm from 
> an older generation, but unlike the kids who grew up in the 
> nineties and the noughties, I *don't* think that bloating a kid's 
> already big head by giving him praise and *sweeties* somehow 
> constitutes 'being a good teacher'. 

SSSusan:
Nor do I, Marion.  But it's not false compliments & treats which make 
me feel Lupin was a good teacher.  OTOH, a teacher who is kind *can* 
make for a classroom where learning is easier to accomplish.  Not 
kindness alone, but I would say that kindness coupled with high 
expectations and respect would do it.

And by respect, I mean not just a ONE-way respect, as in "You will 
call me 'Sir.'"  I don't have a problem with those who feel that that 
kind of politeness, courtesy and respect should be shown.  No problem 
at all.  But I believe that for an effective classroom, there needs 
to be TRUE respect behind the courteous respect.  True respect can 
come from a lot of things -- from a teacher's reputation for 
excellence, from a teacher's reputation for making class interesting, 
and, I would maintain, from a teacher's willingness to *return 
respect.*

A teacher offering respect for students is *not* equal to giving them 
empty praise or provided treats!  In my mind it is listening to them, 
taking their questions seriously, establishing a quality of fairness 
that comes from treating all students as equally deserving, 
attempting to try a new route if students aren't understanding the 
original presentation, etc.  

I'm not staring at my books at the moment, so I can't say 
unequivocally that Lupin had all of this, but imo he had a lot more 
of it than Snape did.


Marion:
> Now Snape exudes plenty of vulnarability as well.
> From the first book, when everybody was whining about how 'mean' 
> Snape was, my overwhelming impression was how *lonely* the man was. 

SSSusan:
I wouldn't argue with you that Snape may have been a lonely man.  
That does not make being mean a simultaneous impossibility.  IMO he 
was both.


Marion:
> First Potions lesson, when Snape keeps a whole classroom 
> mesmerized, Harry and Ron pull faces at eachother (they look at 
> eachother and pull up their eyebrows, which, in British mime 
> means 'who is this weirdo?').... 

SSSusan:
Alla has already replied to this, and I concur.  


Marion:
> But JKR, and most of the readers, seem to think otherwise. 
> Apparantly it isn't important that children learn something. No, 
> what is important is *that the teachers are nice to Harry*.
> It isn't important that children grow up to be responsible, 
> reliable, honest adults. No, it's important that Harry gets 
> coddled, given choccies when he fails.

SSSusan:
Wow, I think this is a really unfair characterization of what Lupin 
does.  I totally believe it's important that students learn 
something!  After Quirrell, who was never raved about for the things 
he taught, and Lockhart, who was a fraud and taught very little 
useful DADA information, the kids get Lupin, and they're excited to 
be studying things of real use!  Grindylows, Hinkypunks (sp?), 
boggarts!  Yes, Lupin is kind, but the students that we see seem to 
respond to that.  Finally, they are getting someone who's teaching 
them real content *and* he's easy to be with, too?  Fabulous!


Marion:
> One would think that after showing Harry to have been the cootie 
> kid versus Dudley the Golden Boy, the author would've taken pains 
> to show that in the WW, where Harry is the Golden Boy, Harry 
> would've handled things better than Dudley. But no, the message is 
> apparantly that the Dursleys weren't exactly wrong for coddling a 
> Special Boy, but that they are wrong for coddling the wrong Special 
> Boy! They should've coddled Harry instead, since he is the True 
> Special Boy TM!

SSSusan:
I truly believe you are using the term "coddling" for "kindness," and 
I do not see those two terms as interchangable in the slightest.  I 
don't think very many people are saying anything along the lines that 
Harry should have been coddled at Hogwarts.  But there isn't one 
thing wrong with kindness, imo.


Siriusly Snapey Susan






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 13 15:30:11 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:30:11 -0000
Subject: Revenge on Rita was First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gn2ih9+e7sv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn43m3+kqk0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185804

> > Magpie:
> > I see what you're saying, but it's not clear at all on my re-
reading. 
> > The whole thing completely depends on me seeing Rita as an honest 
> > writer who would have reported the truth because it was the truth
> and  that's not Rita.
> 
> Pippin:
> She would have reported that Harry Potter was accusing prominent
> wizards of Death Eating, not because it was true, but because it 
would
> have been a colossal story, which the Ministry wasn't telling  even 
as
> craziness.

Magpie:
Okay. So she might have reported that (had she been allowed in the 
Prophet, I guess). But is that line in GoF really a story of Hermione 
shooting herself in the foot? Because Hermione forcing her to write 
the story to her specifications (so, for instance, the spin *isn't* 
that Harry is being crazy in accusing these people, which would 
hardly have helped him at all so what did they miss out on there?) is 
still a big triumph of OotP. So while I will totally concede that *I 
don't know* how things would have gone if Rita hadn't been muzzled in 
those months between GoF and OotP (though I still think the whole 
conversation about Rita in GoF is merely there to bring up Rita and 
not to show in retrospect that Hermione made a big mistake here) 
that's not enough to make this a story about how Hermione's inabilty 
to deal with public humiliation as well as Harry (thanks, in part, to 
Snape picking on him in class) causes Harry's difficulties in OotP. 
The emphasis in the story is still on Hermione's using her power over 
Rita to strike a blow for the good guys. That's far more powerful 
than any speculations about what Rita might have done if left to her 
own devices in GoF and how that might have been better or worse for 
Harry. Rita could just as easily have *started* the crazy!Harry train 
and then left them with no way of fighting back in OotP. (I suppose 
they just would have put the article in the Quibbler themselves 
without Rita.)

Pippin:
> Hermione had to coerce Rita, but only into writing the story for 
free,
> not into writing it at all. Rita thought at first that the public
> wouldn't want Harry's version. But Hermione convinced her that they 
would.

Magpie:
Hermione had power over Rita. Rita had no power over Hermione. If 
Hermione could not convince Rita that the public would want Harry's 
story then Rita could just continue being forbidden to write at all--
or else Hermione would probably write the story and Rita would be 
forced to put her name to it. Any "discussion" in the scene is an 
illusion since Rita's under Hermione's thumb. It's Hermione's power 
over Rita that makes Rita an ally. That doesn't make for a good 
cautionary tale about blackmail. Nor does it show Hermione overcome 
by passion.

 
> > Magpie:
> > The fact that the same kind of opportunity and situation never 
came 
> > up again does not prove that Hermione decided it wasn't worth it. 
The 
> > book showed Hermione use blackmail without remorse and without 
bad 
> > consequences. The fact that one can insert some lukewarm 
objections 
> > to that doesn't make those objections the point in the story. I 
don't 
> > know what JKR thinks about it, but given what I read in the story 
I 
> > would predict her answer if challenged to be slyly gleeful about 
> > Hermione's triumph and at most add a lukewarm warning not to try
> this  at home kids because the author of your life doesn't have 
your back.
> 
> Pippin:
> Exactly. It works as a revenge fantasy, if you can overlook all the
> inconvenient "realities" that JKR put in the book. Easy to do, if
> you're reading, but not so if you had to live day-to-day with
> Hermione's anxiety, the dangers of blackmail (dealt with in the 
Malfoy
> and Twins storylines) and Rita's determination to write some more
> nasty stuff about Harry and Hermione one day, which doesn't fret
> Hermione by the time of OOP, but was the initial point of the 
exercise.

Magpie:
It works as a revenge fantasy because it is a revenge fantasy--the 
fact that I can say "it would never work like this in real life" 
doesn't translate into the story showing me how blackmail doesn't 
work. There are no pesky "realities" in the story, so why would my 
ability to bring them in myself make them part of the story? I don't 
have to imagine dangers of blackmail that never appear or imagine 
Hermione suffering anxiety she's not ever shown to be suffering. 

You claim that Hermione "seems to be scared" of what she's done based 
on one line out of context that describes her as speaking in 
an "oddly constrained" voice that trembles. But the scene itself 
explains both those things as Hermione being not scared but thrilled 
with herself. Those descriptions are followed by Harry's impression 
that Hermione has been "dying" to tell them about Rita days but 
stopped herself because of what was going on. Iow, she's not showing 
horror over what she's done, she's just bursting to tell them about 
it. She "happily" reveals to Harry how she figured out what Rita did. 
Then Hermione's voice trembles in "quiet triumph"--the trembling 
isn't fear or even negative. Hermione then again speaks "happily" 
while "brandishing" the jar at them. She's next described 
as "beaming." Then she "smiles" at the beetle in the jar, who buzzes 
angrily back. Then "smiling serenely" and puts the jar back in her 
bag. This is a happy memory for Hermione that sums up what I see as 
her feelings about the blackmail scheme in general. Would she do it 
again if she felt it was necessary? I don't see why she wouldn't.

The Twins don't blackmail anyone, that I remember, and it's unclear 
how things would have gone if they did. I don't remember what the 
Malfoy storyline about blackmail is but I would suspect *that* 
storyline would show blackmail ending badly because the Malfoys are 
bad guys--it's different when Hermione does it for the side of good.

-m





From foxmoth at qnet.com  Fri Feb 13 15:36:28 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:36:28 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation  LONG
In-Reply-To: <gn1r2q+ojtl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn441s+hk2s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185805

> Alla:
> 
> Frst of all I do not need Dumbledore order Snape to act as if he
liked  Harry. That would be nice, but I really do not think Snape is
capable  of human kindness to anybody but Lily and maybe Malfoys?. I
want  Dumbledore to order Snape to act as if he was ANY other student
in his  class, would be nice if he included Neville and Hermione in there.

Pippin:
Huh? Harry is being treated the same as Snape treats any other student
who appears to be full of himself and not doing acceptable work. Snape
treats Draco just that way in HBP: insults and threats. It works with
Draco, who stops his loose cannon efforts  and goes back to his
original plan.

I agree that it never works with Harry. Lupin and Dumbledore are
wiser: they make Harry's arrogance work for them. When he disappoints,
they make it clear they expected more, and Harry never thinks it is
unfair that they should do so. (A method, incidentally, that
is entirely wrong for Neville, who has seen far too much of it.) 

Snape, poor guy, keeps trying to squash the arrogance out, and that
doesn't work at all. 

But Snape sees arrogance as the fatal flaw that destroyed James, and
so I can't really blame him for thinking that he has to try. Of course
he's wrong to think that Harry is arrogant about being a celebrity.
But Harry *is* arrogant, IMO. Not every child would insult a bully
who wanted to be friends, or argue with the Sorting Hat, or sass a
tough professor on the first day of class. 

Anyway, I thought you wanted Harry treated so as to reach his maximum
potential, which might not accord with treating him just the same as
everyone else. And who is to decide what his maximum potential is?
Dumbledore, who hopes he will lay down his life for his friends? The
DE's who see him as a future Dark Lord?  Harry, who doesn't give a
hoot about his maximum potential and would like to spend his days
playing Quidditch and goofing off?

Alla: 
> But I think a very reasonable possibility would be of somebody
turning them off the studying forever.
> 

Pippin:
Only Umbridge drives people out of the school, and she goes far beyond
anything Snape ever did. I think one of JKR's points is that kids
don't need to be coddled  as much as we think and will learn more from
a teacher who is unfairly tough than one who is too lenient. YMMV.

I've often wished JKR had shown us how Lupin dealt with his Slytherin
classes. I have a feeling he was tougher on them. We know they didn't
like him much. 

> 
> Pippin:
> There would be a lot more people in Azkaban if Dumbledore's word was
> enough to put them there. It isn't.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Of course not, but I am left with the opinion that Dumbledore's
"Snape  is no more a DE than I am" was the deal breaker that saved him
from  Azkaban.  We did see what happened to those at the hearing that
 Dumbledore did not vouch for.

Pippin:
LOL!  Fudge wouldn't believe Snape was a DE even when Snape waved the
Dark Mark under his nose.

Pippin





From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 15:50:51 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:50:51 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn3v30+rr3s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn44sr+7u36@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185806

> SSSusan:
> Hee, yes, I agree that teaching him potions wasn't likely to be TOO 
> directly significant in fending off Voldemort.  I think, though, 
that 
> it was always likely that Snape could be, WOULD be able to teach 
> Harry things that would be helpful in other ways ? the stuff they 
> began to get to with Occlumency. 

Zara:
Such as the basics of duelling, and the Disarming Charm? Snape 
arranged to teach Harry that in Harry's second year.

> SSSusan:
> But by then, the teacher-student 
> relationship was really damaged, and much of that can be traced 
back, 
> imo, to the first lesson, the first year, the way Snape treated him 
> so angrily, with such hatred, which *naturally* made Harry react in 
> kind.

Zara:
I have to say, that the first year, was something in which *Harry's* 
reaction made me go "Huh?" His dislike of Snape throughout the first 
year, his suspicions that Snape was up to no good, all that made 
perfect sense to me. But Harry's non-reaction to the news that Snape 
had saved his life is something I can't understand. It would not make 
me like a teacher like Snape, but it would forever change how I 
thought and acted about him. He would no longer be a jerk to 
disrespect, he'd be a jerk to respect and avoid. I was taken aback by 
the first scene in CoS in which Snape came up, jarringly so.

> SSSusan:
> Sorry, I'm digressing.  I really would like to know if others feel 
> there's something to the idea that Snape would've liked to have 
just 
> packed Harry up & sent him back to the Dursleys because he thought 
> he'd be safer there.

Zara:
I don't agree with this view. Snape knew Voldemort would be coming 
back, but not when. I imagine he and Albus were hoping this might not 
occur until Harry was an adult, and as an adult, Harry could not be 
protected at the Dursleys anyway. He'd need an education in magic to 
have any chance - I am sure Snape had no desire to have adult Harry 
move in with him...

He does threaten to expel Harry on a couple of occasions, but I think 
he was just bluffing. It's a pattern of behavior he exhibits with 
other characters as well (I doubt he had any intention of causing 
Lupin to be Kissed by a Dementor, for another example. I also think 
he had no intention of poisoning Trevor - the first time he mentions 
poison in that scene, he already knows the potion is correctly made 
and thus will only turn Trevoer, reversibly, into a tadpole. Nor do I 
think he was going to poison any students in the calss on antidotes 
that Harry missed. I think these are all actions Snape knows would be 
over the line form the point of view of the legal/school authorities).
 
> Montavilla47:
> > I understand what you are saying. Lupin certainly explained 
things 
> > better in terms of what Dementors are, how they work, and what a 
> > Patronus would do.

Zara:
This I really disagre with. Snape explained what Legilimency is quite 
well. He did less well at explaining the special circumstances of 
Harry and Voldemort and how they applied, but this is a topic about 
which we *know* he did not have full knowledge, so he was engaging in 
guesswork (as he freely admitted in the scene). Lupin was teaching a 
standard, if advanced, topic in DADA.

> SSSusan:
> Yes, and this is a good point.  If one gets the content, the "how" 
> one got it isn't necessarily important.  Do you think Snape was 
aware 
> of these alternate methods?  Do you think he should have explained 
> the possibilities to Harry?  

Zara:
I do not believe there *are* alternate methods of Occlumency. Snape, 
in my opinion, taught the standard method, just as Lupin taught the 
standard method against Dementors. 

It is true that Harry blocks out Voldemort on a few occasions by 
experiencing deep, painful emotions of love and/or grief. However, it 
is my view that this is not an "alternative defense" against standard 
Legilimency, but something that works only against Voldemort 
(possibly even, only if you are Harry). For example, if Harry had 
attempted the same defense against Snape in the lessons, I do not 
believe that it would have prevented Snape from invading his mind.

It is certainly not a method that *Snape* would have ever considered -
 that he himself has comparable feelings, and the reasons for it,  
was one of the things he would most certainly have needed to hide 
from Voldemort.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 16:05:52 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 16:05:52 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn44sr+7u36@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn45p0+l845@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185807

> Alla:
>
> First of all I do not need Dumbledore order Snape to act as if he
liked Harry. That would be nice, but I really do not think Snape is
capable of human kindness to anybody but Lily and maybe Malfoys?. I
want Dumbledore to order Snape to act as if he was ANY other student
in his class, would be nice if he included Neville and Hermione in 
there.

Pippin:
Huh? Harry is being treated the same as Snape treats any other student
who appears to be full of himself and not doing acceptable work. Snape
treats Draco just that way in HBP: insults and threats. It works with
Draco, who stops his loose cannon efforts and goes back to his
original plan.

Alla:

Really? You are arguing that Snape threatening the student who knows 
that Snape gave him every possible latitude for years and years, who 
knows that Snape is family friend, who knows that Snape loves him 
(yes, I know he says differently in HBP) is somehow comparable to 
what Snape does to Harry. Okay, I strongly disagree then. Any other 
example of Snape treating student the way he treats Harry during the 
lessons (besides Neville and Hermione) and not outside the classroom?

And I have to clarify ?  by treating Harry as other students I meant 
treating Harry neutrally, I really did not mean to say that if Snape 
would single out anybody else, which I do not think he does, that 
would mean that his treatment of Harry become somehow appropriate for 
me.


Pippin:
<SNIP>
But Snape sees arrogance as the fatal flaw that destroyed James, and
so I can't really blame him for thinking that he has to try. Of course
he's wrong to think that Harry is arrogant about being a celebrity.
But Harry *is* arrogant, IMO. Not every child would insult a bully
who wanted to be friends, or argue with the Sorting Hat, or sass a
tough professor on the first day of class. <SNIP>

Alla:

He does not **know** anything about Harry's character yet Pippin, 
when he makes his *celebrity* comment. That is my point.

But Susan said it the best in my view:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185802

"Snape, imo, should have seen that his interrogation (for that's how
it appeared to me) didn't "work" and the kid DID deserve another
chance. ANY kid that first day ? particularly one from a Muggle
home ? would have deserved that much."


Alla:

As far as I am concerned in the next years Harry said plenty of 
unfair things to Snape (as long as many very fair accusations IMO), I 
would never dispute that.

But I think that this first lesson shows that Snape **owns** this 
problem and I would never blame eleven year old for getting this 
opinion and continue to have it, especially since Snape did nothing 
to discourage it.

Zara:
I have to say, that the first year, was something in which *Harry's*
reaction made me go "Huh?" His dislike of Snape throughout the first
year, his suspicions that Snape was up to no good, all that made
perfect sense to me. But Harry's non-reaction to the news that Snape
had saved his life is something I can't understand. It would not make
me like a teacher like Snape, but it would forever change how I
thought and acted about him. He would no longer be a jerk to
disrespect, he'd be a jerk to respect and avoid. I was taken aback by
the first scene in CoS in which Snape came up, jarringly so.


Alla:


I thought Dumbledore had a perfect opportunity there to mend 
animosity between them if he gave a bit different speech to Harry at 
the end of PS.  Be there as it may, he have the speech he did. I do 
not blame Harry for not changing his opinion about the jerk without 
push, but again I certainly blame Dumbledore.

I wonder though, psychologically does it really not sound true to you 
that if somebody who you at eleven thought was a devil and who saved 
your life, but you were told that he did that to keep hating James in 
peace, would you not continue to actively dislike that person?

I mean, think about it. Dumbledore does not stress **anything** 
positive in the Snape's deed, he stresses negative, he stresses that 
Snape did it to continue hate the memory of Harry's dead father, whom 
Harry I am sure would love to have near by.  I don't know, I can 
totally understand. Saving one's life should normally change one's 
opinion at least a bit, lol, but when you are told that it was all 
done to keep hating your dead father.

And of course they should have continue hating each other for story's 
sake, but I hate that explanation.

JMO,

Alla





From bonsaikathy at gmail.com  Fri Feb 13 15:15:31 2009
From: bonsaikathy at gmail.com (ac4lb)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:15:31 -0000
Subject: question about crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <67E8BB2EE1274D2C8A37831F438F231C@JerriPC>
Message-ID: <gn42qj+946v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185808

> Carol, who wonders if Sirius Black would have been a little less
> lonely and depressed if Hermione had left Crookshanks with him
> in 12 GP


I appreciate the answers to my question as it's nagged me since the
first time I read it. I kept waiting to find out that he was an
animagus but no that wasn't it. JKR never fully explains about
Crookshanks. It's almost like he was just thrown in there for this one
story line. I just didn't understand it. :)

I also don't understand and this has to do with the movies, why
Harry's scar is sometimes on one side of his forehead and even in the
same movie it's sometimes on the other side. How in the world can they
make that kind of mistake is beyond me. lol

Kathy


ELFY NOTE:  If you would like to respond *only* to the movie aspect of this post, please take the post over to our sister list:
http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie/
Thanks!





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 19:02:27 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:02:27 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn3v30+rr3s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn4g43+pgqp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185809

Montavilla47:

I'm going to snipping a lot of this post, because I think we're in
agreement most of the time.  Unfortunately, the part I'm not 
snipping is where we disagree.  Alas!

> SSSusan:
> I actually disagree that the E is proof of Snape's teaching ability 
> or of a decent match of his teaching style to Harry's learning 
> style.  My original point was that I don't believe Harry learned to 
> the best of his ability and that a *part* of the reason why, imo, was 
> Snape's treatment of him.  
> 
> A lot of people think that that "E" Harry received was actually 
> indicative of how much Harry *could* do with Potions if he were not 
> constantly under the gun with Snape.  "E" = Exceeds Expectations, and 
> Harry certainly did exceed his, and in receiving it, made people 
> wonder if he was actually capable of much more, could he get past his 
> relationship with his Potions master.

Montavilla47:
Perhaps, but I tend to doubt it.  I went over the reasons, but I'll go 
over them again quickly.

In order for someone to get an O in their O.W.L.s, they would need
to be extremely bright and diligent (as Hermione is in all her classes),
or extremely motivated and with natural aptitude (as Harry was in 
D.A.D.A.)  

We don't see Harry having any particular affinity for Potions.  He 
doesn't, for example, single out Potions as an interesting subject
when he peruses his books between purchasing them and going to
Hogwarts.  

Now, if Snape had been a different type of teacher, he might have
inspired Harry to like Potions, despite Harry not really caring about 
the subject--but there is no teacher that does that for Harry in 
any of his subjects.  Harry likes Lupin's classes, but it's seeing a
specific purpose in his life that inspires Harry to excel--like needing
to ward off Dementors.

And Snape isn't, as a teacher, interested in inspiring all of his
students.  He's interested in teaching them what to do, challenging
them to keep up with his high standards, and in spending his 
efforts in N.E.W.T.s on only the very best.

(Interestingly, he's not like that about D.A.D.A.  When he gets
the D.A.D.A., he's more interested in making sure that *every*
pupil excels, even holding remedial classes for those, like 
Crabbe and Goyle, who don't pass their O.W.L.s.)


> SSSusan:
> Hee, yes, I agree that teaching him potions wasn't likely to be TOO 
> directly significant in fending off Voldemort.  I think, though, that 
> it was always likely that Snape could be, WOULD be able to teach 
> Harry things that would be helpful in other ways ? the stuff they 
> began to get to with Occlumency.  But by then, the teacher-student 
> relationship was really damaged, and much of that can be traced back, 
> imo, to the first lesson, the first year, the way Snape treated him 
> so angrily, with such hatred, which *naturally* made Harry react in 
> kind.

Montavilla47:
Sorry to interrupt here, but I went back and read the relevant passage
and I'm not seeing a lot of anger or hatred in that first lesson.  Snape
is being demanding, yes.  But it doesn't seem that personal.

It really reads to me the way that a stern, demanding teacher might
treat any random student--or any random student that the Wizarding
world was treating like a demi-god.  Yes, he sneers at Harry being
a "celebrity." But a teacher asking a student questions--even 
ones he can't answer--is a legitimate teaching technique.  And
taking a point (one whole point!) is not exactly dumping all your
anti-James baggage on the boy.  Harry was being cheeky, after all.

(You'd think that would endear Harry to Snape, rather than turn
him off, since Lily was the cheeky one.  Now, Harry flipping Snape
over backwards and pantsing him would incite the James hate.)

As for why Snape takes another point from Harry for Neville's
accident, I have no explanation.  It's unfair, but again, I really 
doubt that that would cause Harry to turn away from Potions if 
he cared about the subject to the extent that he have earned an 
O in O.W.L.s otherwise.

> Montavilla47:
> > I agree that it wasn't as good a match as Lupin's. Of course, my
> > point wasn't that it was. My point was that *how* you learn is
> > separate from *what* you learn. That Harry used different methods 
> > to block Dementors and Legilimency than Snape advised using doesn't 
> > mean that Snape's style was substandard. It simply meant that Harry 
> > preferred alternate methods.
> 
> SSSusan:
> Yes, and this is a good point.  If one gets the content, the "how" 
> one got it isn't necessarily important.  Do you think Snape was aware 
> of these alternate methods?  Do you think he should have explained 
> the possibilities to Harry?  

Montavilla47:
I think he was aware that Harry already knew about the Patronus spell,
so, Snape was actually presenting the alternative method in D.A.D.A.

As for the alternative method in Occlumency--I've thought a lot about
Occlumency and how it *might* work.  But, unfortunately, it's not 
really developed in canon.  Since Harry's alternative method of 
Occlumency is grounded in feeling grief, I'm not sure how Snape
would have taught that to Harry (especially since Snape seems 
to think that grief makes you vulnerable).  

I suppose Snape might have tried killing Dobby in front of Harry.  That
might have worked.

> SSSusan:
> You know what I think this comes down to for me in a big way ? and 
> this may be wholly unfair of me [I'm sure folks will let me know ;)] 
> ? is that I wanted Snape to teach Harry what he knew about Voldemort, 
> what he knew about how to fight Voldemort.  When Harry needed to know 
> certain things ? Patronus charm [tho he didn't know he needed to know 
> it as much as he did need to, and benefited from it more than he knew 
> he would], Occlumency, dueling skills ? I wanted him to be able to 
> get answers to his questions, to be given instructions he could learn 
> from.  Snape was Harry's potions master, but we readers all knew that 
> he, DD & perhaps Moody & Lupin were the ones who could give the kids 
> the *real* scoop, could help equip them with the real skills they 
> were going to need.  

Montavilla47:
I agree.  I would have liked to have seen that, too.  But here I 
blame Dumbledore (or JKR).  JKR was writing mysteries, so she
couldn't have Harry actually form a relationship with someone who
could give Harry answers.  Snape had a strong, plausible reason (his 
hatred of James) to keep away from Harry.  Moody wasn't really
the kind of person who would seek out companionship from a kid 
and he really barely interacted with Harry.  

Lupin's a different case.  He knew that Harry needed mentoring, he
liked Harry, and he had a lot knowledge that would have been helpful
to Harry.  

Yet, he doesn't stay in touch.  He never writes to Harry (and Harry
never writes to him with any questions).  He declares that he'll
go to Hogwarts personally to demand that Snape continue the 
Occlumency lessons and never does.   Even when he tries to make
himself available to Harry (in DH), Harry rejects him and calls him
a coward.

But, if Harry had someone who could actually answer his questions,
then the books would have been a lot shorter.






From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 20:44:27 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:44:27 -0000
Subject: question about crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <gn1sgu+l0g3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn4m3b+527s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185810

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:


> I think you may be right about an animal language that Animagi 
> can speak and understand in their animal form. 
> <SNIP>
> Still, a cat who can use animal language to convey a concept like
> "bloodstains on the sheets"? My ability to suspend disbelief is
> becoming a bit strained.


zanooda:

Maybe it's not exactly a language, but more like mental images? That
would explain "bloodstains" communicated to Sirius :-). Maybe Sirius
used the word "told" just for simplicity's sake.


> Joey wrote:

> There is another question I had. At one point, Sirius
> mentions "Crookshanks, did you call him?" (when he explains 
> his past to HRH in PoA climax). I think none had addressed 
> Crookshanks by his name that night for Sirius to make 
> that remark. If I'm right, what was Sirius talking about then?



I also don't remember anyone calling Crookshanks by his name at the
Shrieking Shack. I think that maybe Sirius heard the name a little
earlier, when HRH (plus Scabbers) were returning from Hagrid's.
Remember how at first Crookshanks approached them, and Hermione tried
to chase him away, and then Sirius/Padfoot attacked Ron? Maybe
Crookshanks and Sirius came to that spot together, so when Hermione
told the cat to go away Sirius was nearby and heard his name. This is
the only explanation I can think of :-). It happened at the beginning
of the "Cat, rat and dog" chapter, IIRC.


zanooda, who had to re-write this post, because it mysteriously
disappeared yesterday


 




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 22:41:41 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 22:41:41 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn2r31+bvad@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn4sv5+qfr7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185811

SSSusan wrote:
> <snip> For once Harry determined he'd better really focus and get
the potion right.  He buckled down and he did so.  Even if Snape was
incapable of praising or acknowledging the effort, he could have just
accepted the potion and gone on without comment.  
> 
> Perhaps a corner would have been turned and Harry would've learned
that, if he tried hard enough and shut up, they could tolerate one 
another.  But no, the vial "slips," Snape issues that "oops," and in 
an instant, additional damage has been done to their already damaged 
> relationship.  
> 
> I've heard the arguments, but I'll never be convinced Snape did not
 intentionally drop the vial, and I believe JKR wrote it the way she
did for us to receive the implication that he did so.  That was 
exceptionally childish and, as you said, it was unprofessional.  It 
wiped out any chance of turning things around.  So, see, Harry tried 
something different (heh ? actually concentrating, working hard, not
arguing), but Snape couldn't rise to the same level and, imo, made the
chasm even greater by how he treated Harry.  WORSE than square one, then.
> 

Carol responds:
But Harry placed the potion on the desk and turned his back. He didn't
see what happened, so the narrator can't report it. But there's no
indication that Snape was anywhere near the potion, and Hermione would
certainly have said something if she had seen him point his wand at
it. (Had she not Vanished Harry's remaining potion, the broken vial
would not have mattered, and surely she would have defended herself by
saying that Harry was angry with the wrong person if Snape had broken
the vial.)

I agree that the "Whoops!" was unprofessional, as was Snape's obvious
glee at Harry's accident, and I agree that his conduct further damaged
their relationship. (He was understandably angry that Harry had
violated his privacy by entering the Pensieve, but Harry might have
regretted his own behavior had Snape not acted as he did. Snape didn't
need to break the vial to make matters worse, nor do I think he did.
The "whoops!" and the zero were quite sufficient.)

I don't think, however, that the description of the incident indicates
that Snape *caused* the accident to Harry's potion. IMO, he merely
gloated because Harry had somehow placed it too hastily on the desk,
causing it to slip to the floor, the kind of accident that has
happened to me many times when I was in a hurry.

Harry never accuses Snape of dropping the potion or magically causing
it to slip. He's only angry over the zero (and angry with Hermione for
vanishing the rest of the potion).

Again, IMO, the timing is what matters. Snape is exceptionally angry
at Harry, Harry has for once made an effort in his class, and Hermione
chooses to "help" Harry by cleaning up. Put all those things together
with Harry's hurrying to put his potion on the desk, and you've got a
minor disaster--a minor triumph for Snape but a major blow to what
could have been an improvement in their relationship. The problem,
IMO, is that Snape can't conceive of Harry's actually empathizing with
him and seeing young Severus's side as opposed to James's.

*If only* those things hadn't happened, but they did, with both Snape
and Harry storing up reasons to hate or distrust the other. The sad
irony is that Harry's glimpse of Snape's worst memory could have led
to a greater understanding between them, but that moment of petty
vindictiveness shattered that possibility along with the vial of
potion. There's no need for Snape to have dropped the vial or caused
it to drop for that shred of hope to be irrevocably destroyed.

SSSusan:
> I *don't* blame Snape entirely.  In fact, imo, the *first*
Occlumency lesson was Snape's shining moment as a teacher of Harry. 
While not patient by many people's standards, that was the most
patient I think we'd seen him; and while not totally forthcoming
(especially with explicit hints & suggestions), he did manage to
provide some answers to Harry.  I was hopeful at the start of that
lesson!  But, alas, due to a combination of Snape's & Harry's
behaviors, and, I'd allege, their history, it went downhill from
there. <snip>

Carol:

I agree. If only Harry hadn't wanted to have that dream (but JKR
needed him to believe Voldemort's vision). If only Harry hadn't
invaded the Pensieve (but JKR needed to show us Snape's worst memory).
If only Snape hadn't ended the lessons (but, again, JKR needed to have
Harry believe Voldemort's vision--and, in any case, the lessons either
weren't succeeding and a few more lessons would have made no
difference). On a sidenote, I think that Snape and Dumbledore gained
important information from the lessons--that Harry was seeing into
Voldemort's mind and was dreaming of the corridor. The lessons may
have been more valuable for them than they were for Harry.

Carol earlier:
> > Those things aside, I think that natural ability and enjoyment of
a subject are as important with regard to Harry's performance in at
least some classes as the teacher. Madam Hooch's teaching abilities
are irrelevant to his learning to fly. He excels at it
.He learns 
DADA, not because he has good teachers (with the exception of Lupin
and Snape,the DADA teachers range from mediocre to abysmal) but 
because he's highly motivated
. He's also motivated by the Prince's 
book. He likes doing well in Potions thanks to the improved 
instructions (and getting credit where credit is not due), and he 
also learns the spells almost effortlessly, motivated, it seems, by
curiosity and enjoyment (and, ironically, by affection for his friend,
the Prince). 
> 
> SSSusan:
> I tend to agree with Carol, although I still think that, while 
*liking* the teacher wasn't necessarily going to be the big factor in
 whether Harry learned well, big-time *disliking* turned out to be a 
big factor.  The only professor he hated was Snape, and I believe we
saw that seriously interfere with his interest in learning, and
Snape's reciprocal hatred was a significant cause for that as well.
> 
Carol responds:
He also hated Umbridge (in fact, he wasn't sure which of the two he
hated more). But since Umbridge had nothing to teach him (or anyone
else), his feelings didn't affect his performance in that class. (the
same is true to a lesser extent of Lockhart, whom he disliked but
didn't hate--he, too, had nothing to teach, so Harry's attitude had no
effect on what he learned. Still, though I think that Harry did best
in those subjects for which he was motivated. He did no better and no
worse in Snape's classes (or the Potions OWL) than in his other core
subjects, with the exception of DADA. He seems to have learned in
spite of himself--and in spite of Snape's methods. 

Carol, who likes Snape but feels that in some ways he was his own
worst enemy




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 23:16:26 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 23:16:26 -0000
Subject: question about crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <67E8BB2EE1274D2C8A37831F438F231C@JerriPC>
Message-ID: <gn4v0a+7shb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185812

Carol earlier:
> >Carol, who wonders if Sirius Black would have been a little less
>lonely and depressed if Hermione had left Crookshanks with him in 12 GP

Jerri responded: 
> I feel that it might well have helped, which is why JKR couldn't
allow it to happen!

Carol responds:
Good point.

Jerri: 
> I certainly expected Crookshanks to play a more important role in
the final books, rather than just disappearing. <snip> of poor
Hedwig!)  Once I learned from Fantastic Beasts and JKR's interviews
and/or web site that Crookshanks, like Mrs. Figg's cats was part
Kneazle and that Kneazle's had all the wonderful attributes described
in FB, I felt sure that Crookshanks could be of substantial assistance
at some point.  Instead, his high point seems to have been in PoA. 

Carol again:
Me, too. (It's okay, List Elves! I do have something to contribute,
however small!)

Jerri:
> The "uncanny ability to detect unsavoury or suspicious characters"
could have been of great use at Godric's Hollow, for example. <snip>

Carol responds:
In retrospect, it's interesting that Crookshanks never hissed at Snape
 with his fur standing on end as he did with Scabbers. And his
anti-Scabbers reaction can't just be to Scabbers/Wormtail being an
Animagus or he would never have befriended Padfoot/Sirius, who was
also an Animagus. I take his nonreaction to Snape to mean that Snape,
for all his animosity toward Black and his friend, Lupin (also not
hissed at by Crookshanks), did not trigger Crookshanks's "Kneazle
sense"--IOW, Crookshanks didn't intuitively react to Snape as
"unsavoury or suspicious," a clue that perhaps should have signalled
that Snape, for all his unpleasantness, was a good guy.

But don't we at one point see Crookshanks in the same room (the
kitchen at 12 GP) with Mundungus Fletcher? Surely, Dung was an
"unsavoury or suspicious character," but Crookshanks, IIRC, has no
reaction to him.

Carol, wondering what would have happened if Crookshanks encountered
Crouch!Moody in HRH's presence and suspecting that his disguise might
have been revealed early (just as it would have been by the real
Moody's Sneakoscope if he hadn't disabled it)





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 14 00:08:57 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 00:08:57 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn3v30+rr3s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn522p+g6h6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185813


> SSSusan:
> I actually disagree that the E is proof of Snape's teaching ability
or of a decent match of his teaching style to Harry's learning style.
 My original point was that I don't believe Harry learned to the best
of his ability and that a *part* of the reason why, imo, was Snape's
treatment of him.  
> 
> A lot of people think that that "E" Harry received was actually
indicative of how much Harry *could* do with Potions if he were not 
constantly under the gun with Snape.  "E" = Exceeds Expectations, and
Harry certainly did exceed his, and in receiving it, made people 
wonder if he was actually capable of much more, could he get past his
relationship with his Potions master. <snip>

Carol responds:
I think the E matches perfectly with the E's he receives in his other
core subjects (Transfiguration, Charms, and Herbology), all of them
taught by teachers that Harry likes and/or respects more than he does
Snape. In all of them, Harry sometimes goofs off or talks or fails to
pay attention, and if a teacher assigns an essay, he generally relies
more than is good for him on Hermione's help. (Ron is even worse, but
we're not discussing Ron.) I don't think that Harry has any particular
interest in or aptitude for any of those classes--though at least he
doesn't blow them off completely as he does Divination, which, in
Ron's words, "we were always going to fail." His attitude changes
briefly when he starts to get brilliant results in Potions thanks to
the HBP's book (which he at first resents and then, thanks to the
*magical* results of the first few directions, continues to pursue
with enthusiasm). Potions becomes a kind of adventure, not to mention
that he's receiving unmerited praise from Slughorn. But once Harry
hides his Potions book from Snape, he returns to his usual
above-average but by no means outstanding results. So, unlike his
mother, he doesn't seem to have any particular aptitude for Potions
even though, temporarily, he acquired an interest in it. I think it's
because skill at Potions requires a kind of exacting, scientific or
mathematical mindset, an interest in precision and experimentation
that Harry lacks. He likes action and excitement (including the
excitement of adding an ingredient and getting an instant result), not
intellectual investigation, analysis, and logic.  Hermione, who is
logical and follows directions well, is better at Potions than Harry
is (until he acquires the HBP's book), but the Prince aka Snape is a
Potions genius. Harry must have learned from Snape in spite of himself
to earn that E in Potions, but he never gets beyond that level on his
own. With Slughorn, minus the Prince's help, he's back to E level (if
that).

We also have the evidence of all those other students who received O's
 on their OWLs after learning from Snape--one Gryffindor (Hermione),
one Hufflepuff (Ernie), and (IIRC), four students each from Ravenclaw
and Slytherin. Clearly, not all students were uninspired by him.

SSSusan:
<snip>
> he never promised to try to keep or make Harry happy, only to
protect him.  Truthfully, that's likely about all Severus Snape would
have been capable of; it's just that I can't help but *wish* that he
could have set aside the James & Lily stuff and *tried* to focus on
Harry as himself, you know?  Not for friendship's sake, but for
fairness's sake.  I think if Harry had been treated fairly ? meaning,
the same way all other students were ? he'd have been more receptive
to learning things from Snape, in class and out.  It's simple respect,
really.  Snape had none for Harry, so Harry returned the favor.

Carol responds:
Well, sure, but if we hadn't had all the mutual misunderstandings,
we'd never have had the culmination of that misunderstanding and
hatred in Harry's desire to take revenge against Snape for the
"murder" of Dumbledore and the big revelation of Snape's real motives
and intentions in "the Prince's Tale" when it's too late to undo the
damage. (And JKR is also stacking the odds against her hero so that he
more or less has to go it alone, with help only or primarily from
friends his own age.)

But from Snape's perspective, treatinf Harry exactly like the other
students is exactly what he's doing. He says as much to Fudge in PoA,
and to Harry when he tells him that he doesn't take cheek from anyone,
not even the Chosen One. I'm sure that Harry's detentions with Snape
are no better and no worse than the detentions he assigns to other
people (to whom he probably also makes snide remarks, cf. his comment
to Ron about the boy too solid to Apparate a foot across a room). We
never see him interacting with Slytherins other than Draco even in the
classroom (other than sending them to the hospital wing) and not at
all with Ravenclaws or Hufflepuffs (except for the ten-point
deductions from one student from each of those Houses for snogging at
the Yule Ball). Most of them are "dunderheads"; some of them are
rule-breakers, and he treats both sets accordingly. Ernie Macmillan,
who probably never broke a rule in his life and enjoys studying, likes
him just fine. Fred and George, who spend half their school lives in
detention, don't like him at all (and it's mutual).

With the exception of truly petty moments (like "Whoops!" and "I see
no difference"), and his understandable frustration with Neville's
half-dozen melted cauldrons, Snape probably does treat Harry and his
friends very much like he treats everyone else--unless Harry has just
invaded his Pensieve memories or, he thinks, just stolen ingredients
for Polyjuice Potion. I'm not saying that Snape doesn't actively
dislike Harry (despite dutifully watching over and protecting him).
But I think that, in Snape's mind, he really does treat the Boy who
Lived just like anyone else, playing down his celebrity ("See, kids?
He's just as ignorant as you are"), giving him detention or deducting
points when he deserves it, and expecting him to pay attention, follow
directions, and do his work just like everyone else. That he's not as
objective as he thinks he is is obvious to us, but not, I think, to him.

Carol, who thinks that, *for Snape*, Harry really is a mediocre,
arrogant rule-breaker just like his father




From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 14 01:10:11 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 01:10:11 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn44sr+7u36@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn55lj+qfhg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185814

> Zara:
> Such as the basics of duelling, and the Disarming Charm? Snape 
> arranged to teach Harry that in Harry's second year.

jkoney
I don't remember any personal instruction. Snape was Lockhart's 
assistant at the dueling club and he cast one disarming spell. There 
was no instruction before they were paired off. If that is teaching 
then I could have learned martial arts from watching a Bruce Lee 
movie and skipped all those lessons.

It was Snape who matched Malfoy and Harry together instead of letting 
Harry and Ron practice. It was also Snape who volunteered Harry and 
Malfoy to give a demonstration before the school. Lockhart messed up 
trying to teach Harry how to block any spells.

It was then Snape who whispered to Malfoy what spell to cast at 
Harry. So it definitely looks like Snape was trying to embarrass 
Harry by putting in front of the school when upper classmen would 
have been a better choice and it was Snape who told Malfoy to cast a 
spell that Harry wouldn't know how to deal with.

So I don't believe that Snape taught Harry the disarming or blocking 
spells but do believe he tried to embarrass/put down Harry in front 
of the school. 


 
> Zara:
> I have to say, that the first year, was something in which 
*Harry's* 
> reaction made me go "Huh?" His dislike of Snape throughout the 
first 
> year, his suspicions that Snape was up to no good, all that made 
> perfect sense to me. But Harry's non-reaction to the news that 
Snape 
> had saved his life is something I can't understand. It would not 
make 
> me like a teacher like Snape, but it would forever change how I 
> thought and acted about him. He would no longer be a jerk to 
> disrespect, he'd be a jerk to respect and avoid. I was taken aback 
by 
> the first scene in CoS in which Snape came up, jarringly so.

jkoney:
Well it was explained to Harry that Snape only did it to even off the 
debt he owed Harry's father. So I see how Harry wouldn't think any 
differently about Snape. After all he wasn't doing it for Harry, or 
even as a teacher protecting his student, he was doing it for the 
debt he owed. In Harry's mind there is no need for thanking Snape 
because he didn't do it for Harry.






From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 14 01:22:01 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 01:22:01 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn4g43+pgqp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn56bp+7kut@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185815

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "montavilla47" 
<montavilla47 at ...> wrote:
>
> Montavilla47:
> 
 
> Montavilla47:
> Perhaps, but I tend to doubt it.  I went over the reasons, but I'll 
go 
> over them again quickly.
> 
> In order for someone to get an O in their O.W.L.s, they would need
> to be extremely bright and diligent (as Hermione is in all her 
classes),
> or extremely motivated and with natural aptitude (as Harry was in 
> D.A.D.A.)  
> 
> We don't see Harry having any particular affinity for Potions.  He 
> doesn't, for example, single out Potions as an interesting subject
> when he peruses his books between purchasing them and going to
> Hogwarts.  

jkoney:
I think Harry ended up getting the E because he started working hard 
on learning the subject. He wanted to be auror and knew he needed the 
upper class to study for the Newt. He promised McGonnagol and to a 
lesser degree wanted to spite Umbridge. So I think those things made 
him study and learn the subject.

> 
> Now, if Snape had been a different type of teacher, he might have
>> Montavilla47:
> Sorry to interrupt here, but I went back and read the relevant 
passage
> and I'm not seeing a lot of anger or hatred in that first lesson.  
Snape
> is being demanding, yes.  But it doesn't seem that personal.

jkoney:
You might not be seeing it now, but put yourself in Harry's place. 
Your an eleven year old, who is away at school in a totally different 
world, you are in your first class that had no pre-requirements and 
the teacher insults you and then starts questioning you on something 
you have never studied. Not only that, but he isn't questioning 
anyone else. You've lived and dealt with people like this you entire 
life. Now you just have to survive five years of this bully. I don't 
think potions is ever going to hold an interest at this point.



>




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 14 02:03:56 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:03:56 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn56bp+7kut@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn58qc+u65i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185816

>> Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
> Sorry to interrupt here, but I went back and read the relevant
passage
> and I'm not seeing a lot of anger or hatred in that first lesson.
Snape
> is being demanding, yes. But it doesn't seem that personal. <SNIP>

Alla:

How is addressing Harry and his celebrity status in a humiliating way 
is not personal, I cannot even understand. Seriously, even if we 
disagree on how humiliating was what Snape did, he addresses Harry 
and Harry only, he addresses unique circumstances Harry found himself 
in. I think it is extremely personal, IMO of course.

We can of course speculate that Snape does that shpil every year. 
However to the best of my recollection nobody ever mentions it. Not 
Fred and George, not Percy who supposedly had Snape already and who 
do talk about Snape to Harry at some point. One would think that if 
JKR wanted to make a point that Snape does that to unlucky soul every 
year, she would have made a point of mentioning it. She did not, so I 
choose to think that Snape does not do it every year.

Even if he did do questions, adressing Harry's celebrity status is 
something that to me makes it very personal.

And it is not like JKR does not show us Snape starting the year with 
Harry's class, she makes sure to show his speech in OOP  for example
(you will write acceptable, or suffer my displeasure - paraphrase).

It seems to me that very nice contrast can be drawn between what he 
does in first year and fifth year. He belittles whole class in OOP, 
surely he does. But I have no problem with it. What he did in the 
first year, I find disgusting. IMO of course.
 

jkoney:
You might not be seeing it now, but put yourself in Harry's place.
Your an eleven year old, who is away at school in a totally different
world, you are in your first class that had no pre-requirements and
the teacher insults you and then starts questioning you on something
you have never studied. Not only that, but he isn't questioning
anyone else. You've lived and dealt with people like this you entire
life. Now you just have to survive five years of this bully. I don't
think potions is ever going to hold an interest at this point.


Alla:

Oh, since I wrote something substantive answering Montavilla, I can 
get away with ME TOO. Very well put :-)





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Feb 14 02:51:04 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:51:04 -0000
Subject: Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <gn2un5+39h2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn5bio+8m7u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185817

 "magnolia11875" wrote:
>
> Heya!
> 
> I'm trying to figure out all I can about the Dark Mark, the one
> branded onto the Death Eaters, not the mark sent into the air.  I'm
> trying to come up with some way to logically block or remove or
> something the Dark Mark, you see, but I need to know what we know 
for
> sure what we actually know.  All the help anyone can give would be
> completely awesome beyond all measure.  Hugs!


Potioncat:
Out of curiosity, did you post this directly, or were you replying to 
posts in another thread? I only ask because the next post listed is 
from 2001. Ancient!

The mark does not seem to be visible at all times. We know the mark 
was groing darker as LV grew stronger,(GoF) but whether that was a 
reflection of his growing strength, or something he was doing 
himself, I don't know.

It's also uncertain if knowledge of the mark was widespread. Sirius 
didn't seem to know about it, and he was in the Order.

The DEs seem to be able to communicate with it, not only to LV. but 
to each other. 




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Feb 14 03:51:47 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 03:51:47 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn45p0+l845@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn5f4j+icd1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185818

 
> Alla:
 
> I mean, think about it. Dumbledore does not stress **anything** 
> positive in the Snape's deed, he stresses negative, he stresses that 
> Snape did it to continue hate the memory of Harry's dead father, whom 
> Harry I am sure would love to have near by. 

Potioncat:
And it was a lie. I just realized that it was a complete lie. Of 
course, DD couldn't tell Harry that Snape was protecting him to honor 
Lily....but why did DD make up that crock about Snape owing James? 
That's the worst thing he could have told Harry!

I was concerned at how quickly DD dimissed Snape's assessment of Harry. 
All the other teachers find him respectful...(something like that). It 
made me think of a younger Professor DD and the student Tom Riddle. All 
the other teachers were charmed by that boy too, but not DD.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 14 04:15:51 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 04:15:51 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn5f4j+icd1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn5ghn+al9q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185819

> > Alla:
>  
> > I mean, think about it. Dumbledore does not stress **anything** 
> > positive in the Snape's deed, he stresses negative, he stresses 
that 
> > Snape did it to continue hate the memory of Harry's dead father, 
whom 
> > Harry I am sure would love to have near by. 
> 
> Potioncat:
> And it was a lie. I just realized that it was a complete lie. Of 
> course, DD couldn't tell Harry that Snape was protecting him to 
honor 
> Lily....but why did DD make up that crock about Snape owing James? 
> That's the worst thing he could have told Harry! <SNIP>

Alla:

Here is another radical suggestion for Dumbledore. How about telling 
Harry that Snape saved him because it was his job as a teacher to be 
responsible for the safety of the students, him Harry including? How 
about telling him well, basically same thing as Gasp... Quirrell did, 
that Snape did not want him dead. How about leaving Harry's parents 
completely put of the equasion?

I know, I know, she needed to drop hints for the story, but that 
sometimes reminds me and painfully how much sometimes plot drives the 
characters in these books (love them as I am) and not vice versa.

I mean, look I lost my father when I was in my early twenties and if 
somebody would have told me, an adult in my thirties, that somebody 
who disliked me immensely saved my life because he wanted to keep 
hating my dad's memory in peace... I would have of course thanked 
this person for saving my life. But believe me, if I heard this 
reasoning, my feelings as to this person would not have changed a 
bit, I do not think. I would have thanked him because of me wanting 
to respect myself, not because I would have felt a genuine gratitude, 
you know? I mean, it is hard to explan, but I guess I would have been 
upset that he decided to save me by insulting memory of somebody I 
love so dearly.

So as an adult I am sure I would have been able to behave impecably 
on the surfice, I still can understand that child who did not have 
ANY years spent with his dad, would have been feeling that way AND 
not behaving politely without extra push.

Now I do wonder was Albus even being truthful when he was talking 
about him wanting Harry and Snape understand each other during 
Occlumency? I mean, he passed up such a great opportunity IMO when 
these two still did not hurt each other so many times. Just tell 
Harry, go and thank him for doing his job. I do not think it may have 
worked on Snape, lovely being as he is, but who knows...

JMO,

Alla






From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 14 04:58:31 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 04:58:31 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn56bp+7kut@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn5j1n+g3fr@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185820

> >> Montavilla47:
> > Sorry to interrupt here, but I went back and read the relevant 
> passage
> > and I'm not seeing a lot of anger or hatred in that first lesson.  
> Snape
> > is being demanding, yes.  But it doesn't seem that personal.
> 
> jkoney:
> You might not be seeing it now, but put yourself in Harry's place. 
> Your an eleven year old, who is away at school in a totally different 
> world, you are in your first class that had no pre-requirements and 
> the teacher insults you and then starts questioning you on something 
> you have never studied. Not only that, but he isn't questioning 
> anyone else. You've lived and dealt with people like this you entire 
> life. Now you just have to survive five years of this bully. I don't 
> think potions is ever going to hold an interest at this point.

Montavilla47:
I did put myself in Harry's place as I read it.  And, looking at it from
the perspective of an eleven-year-old boy, who is new at school, I
see a teacher who is trying to make a strong impression on his class
and has unfortunately chosen me to do so.  But thems the breaks.  

It's not like Harry has never been in *any* school before.  Sometimes
teachers call on you when you're not prepared.  Sometimes they ask
questions that nobody in the class can answer.  Sometimes they
make unreasonable demands.  

But, I wouldn't assume that Snape was doing this to me personally.
Especially when my new best friend Ron informs me that Snape is
hard on a lot of people.

It's hard to remember back, but I'm pretty sure that even on the 
first reading--before I was hyper-alert to the Harry filter--that
I read Snape as a typical mean teacher and I didn't think that it 
*was* personal until the end of the book when Dumbledore 
mentions the James hate.







From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 14 05:16:57 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 05:16:57 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn58qc+u65i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn5k49+3le0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185821

> >> Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
> > Sorry to interrupt here, but I went back and read the relevant
> passage
> > and I'm not seeing a lot of anger or hatred in that first lesson.
> Snape
> > is being demanding, yes. But it doesn't seem that personal. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> How is addressing Harry and his celebrity status in a humiliating way 
> is not personal, I cannot even understand. Seriously, even if we 
> disagree on how humiliating was what Snape did, he addresses Harry 
> and Harry only, he addresses unique circumstances Harry found himself 
> in. I think it is extremely personal, IMO of course.
> 
> We can of course speculate that Snape does that shpil every year. 
> However to the best of my recollection nobody ever mentions it. Not 
> Fred and George, not Percy who supposedly had Snape already and who 
> do talk about Snape to Harry at some point. One would think that if 
> JKR wanted to make a point that Snape does that to unlucky soul every 
> year, she would have made a point of mentioning it. She did not, so I 
> choose to think that Snape does not do it every year.
> 
> Even if he did do questions, adressing Harry's celebrity status is 
> something that to me makes it very personal.

Montavilla47:

It's not like other teachers haven't touched on Harry's celebrity status.
Flitwick got so excited by it that he fell off his chair when he said Harry's
name.  

All Snape does is mention that Harry is a celebrity.  It's annoying, but 
it can hardly be more humiliating than having your teacher fall off a 
chair.

This takes place during the role call of names--Snape is reading out
*everyone's* names.  He's not singling out Harry, although he doesn't 
call anyone else a celebrity.  After he makes that remark, he continues
reading the rest of the names on his roster.  So, any chagrin Harry 
might feel at being called a celebrity--something that's happened in
at least one other class--he's had time to get over it.

Then Snape begins the class proper by asking questions.  Once 
Harry has failed to provide the answers, he gives the answers and
chews out the rest of the class for not writing them down.  It's 
clear that Snape is concerned about the *information* he imparting
and not focussed on humiliating anyone in particular.

After the students start writing down the answer, he mentions that
he's taking a point from Gryffindor for Harry cheeking him.  Which
Harry did.  So, again, I don't see his motive here as taking revenge
on James for procreating or abusing Harry because he reminds him
of James.  I see a teacher laying down the rules of his classroom.






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 14 05:43:54 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 05:43:54 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn5k49+3le0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn5lmq+607q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185822

> Montavilla47:
> 
> It's not like other teachers haven't touched on Harry's celebrity 
status.
> Flitwick got so excited by it that he fell off his chair when he 
said Harry's
> name.  

Alla:

Flitwick got excited **himself**, he did not call Harry upon his 
celebrity status and did not draw any conclusions about Harry's 
enjoyment or not of his celebrity status. I do not see what he did as 
nearly as bad as what Snape did.

Montavilla47:
> All Snape does is mention that Harry is a celebrity.  It's 
annoying, but 
> it can hardly be more humiliating than having your teacher fall off 
a 
> chair.

Alla:

It is not like Harry himself fell off the chair, I do not see this as 
embarassing for him at all, for Flitwick - sure IMO.

Montavilla47: 
> This takes place during the role call of names--Snape is reading out
> *everyone's* names.  He's not singling out Harry, although he 
doesn't 
> call anyone else a celebrity.

Alla:

In my book it is singling Harry out ? calling him a celebrity. 
Comment which has no relationship to a lesson and directed to one 
student only, I call it singling out.

Montavilla47:
>After he makes that remark, he continues
> reading the rest of the names on his roster.  So, any chagrin Harry 
> might feel at being called a celebrity--something that's happened in
> at least one other class--he's had time to get over it.

Alla:

You seem to interpret Snape's initial comment and his continious 
questioning as two disconnected incidents? I see them as one 
connected event. I see them as Snape starting to bully Harry with his 
comment and when he starts questioning Harry as continuation.

And again, where is any mention that Snape does that all the time? I 
believe that all this questioning was done only for Harry, to 
humiliate him that is.

I am pretty sure that his speech was rehearsed, so I can believe that 
he does it every year, but questions? I do not think so, IMO of 
course. Besides no mention from older students, narrator says Snape 
starts questions "suddenly". Of course it may mean nothing, or it may 
mean that we truly mean to see that the bells went off in Snape head 
and he starts doing what he did.


Montavilla47:
> Then Snape begins the class proper by asking questions.  Once 
> Harry has failed to provide the answers, he gives the answers and
> chews out the rest of the class for not writing them down.  It's 
> clear that Snape is concerned about the *information* he imparting
> and not focussed on humiliating anyone in particular.

Alla:

LOL. No, it is really not clear to me that Snape is not focused on 
anybody in particular, in fact there is no doubt in my mind that 
Harry is his focus. I am sure somewhere along the lines he remembers 
that he is in the classroom, so I am guessing (IMO) that he decided 
to do some teaching along the line.


Montavilla47:
> After the students start writing down the answer, he mentions that
> he's taking a point from Gryffindor for Harry cheeking him.  Which
> Harry did.  So, again, I don't see his motive here as taking revenge
> on James for procreating or abusing Harry because he reminds him
> of James.  I see a teacher laying down the rules of his classroom.

Alla:

To me the revenge was (as I see it) in starting questioning Harry 
specifically, thinking that there is no way he can no the answers and 
commenting on his celebrity status, something that Snape IMO had no 
business doing in the first place.

And if Snape lays down the rules, well how about saying something 
like this instead?

"Transfiguration is  some of the most complex and dangerous  magic 
you will learn at Hogwarts," she said. "Anyone messing around in my 
class will leave and not come back. You have been warned" ? p.134

I know, it is too impersonal and equal opportunity viscious for Snape 
dear.

JMO,

Alla





From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Feb 14 15:14:52 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 15:14:52 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn5lmq+607q@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn6n5c+tm82@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185823

 
> Alla:
> 
> Flitwick got excited **himself**, he did not call Harry upon his 
> celebrity status and did not draw any conclusions about Harry's 
> enjoyment or not of his celebrity status. I do not see what he did 
as 
> nearly as bad as what Snape did.
> 

Potioncat:
It seems that many of the Hogwarts staff was eager to meet the son of 
James and Lily---and it seems his fame as The Boy Who Lived played 
some part in the teachers' eagerness. Flitwick, bless his soul, lost 
control at the actual meeting. He didn't fall on purpose. 

On top of that, students of all levels were going out of their way to 
get a glimpse of Potter. He was being whispered about in the halls. I 
imagine the Slytherins were also a buzz about the potential new Dark 
Lord, and Snape may have heard about Draco's rebuffed expression of 
friendship---with a Draco spin of course.

The other teachers seemed to be looking for a boy who was the best of 
James and Lily. Snape was looking for a boy who was the worst of 
James. In superficial ways, Harry was like James and that was enough 
to make Snape think of Harry as James. 

 
> Alla:
> 
> To me the revenge was (as I see it) in starting questioning Harry 
> specifically, thinking that there is no way he can no the answers 
and 
> commenting on his celebrity status, something that Snape IMO had no 
> business doing in the first place.

Potioncat:
Snape was expecting a swelled-headed James Potter in his class. A 
disruption by his very presence. He was diffusing the celebrity--at 
least in his classroom. 

Was it nice? No. Was it right? Not sure. McGonagall didn't have a 
problem with the celebrity, but she had a classroom of only 
Gryffindors, and Harry's celebrity reflected well on her house.

I really enjoyed the way JKR slowly revealed the story over the 7 
books. Knowing more about the Snape/Evans/Potter history helps 
explain some of Snape's motivation. Although, I still find it 
difficult to understand why Snape dosen't see anything of Lily in 
Harry. Unless he also blames Harry for Lily's death.






From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Feb 14 16:06:28 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 16:06:28 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn45p0+l845@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn6q64+74hu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185824

> Alla:
 Any other 
> example of Snape treating student the way he treats Harry during the
 lessons (besides Neville and Hermione) and not outside the classroom?

Pippin:
Snape says that most of his students are dunderheads, and he doesn't
expect any of them to really appreciate his subject. Harry notices
that Snape criticizes almost everyone except Draco. Hagrid confirms
that Snape hardly likes any of his students. Demeaning and critical
*is* neutral, for Snape. Not that I expect you to like him for it. But
keep reading.

> Alla:
> 
> He does not **know** anything about Harry's character yet Pippin, 
> when he makes his *celebrity* comment. That is my point.
> 

Pippin:
But Harry *is* arrogant, and Snape would have discovered that
very soon. It  would have rubbed him the wrong way even if
Harry didn't physically resemble James any more than Draco looks like
Dudley. And  Harry would  have been put off by Snape's cruelty even if
it had never been directed at him, and no one had warned him about it.

I don't think that Snape and Harry ever would have wanted to be
friends, though they might have found it rewarding if they could have
overlooked one another's failings. 

I think that JKR is saying that supposing someone has the
characteristics assumed to be typical of their group is pretty normal.
 And it's fair to assume there are typical tendencies in a group
that's self-selected -- birds of a feather do flock together, after
all. And it's natural that some tendencies are more appealing to
particular people than others.

But it's  awful   to be so intolerant of a particular
tendency that it keeps you from seeing the person who has it as any
good at all. And it can be equally dangerous to be so taken with an
attractive tendency that it masks everything that's bad.

Snape could not recognize the things Harry had in common with Lily.
Harry did not see how much Snape had in common with his hero,
Dumbledore, until he was able to look past Snape's cruelty and see his
courage. And of course, he had to learn to look past Dumbledore's
twinkly facade of harmless benignity, too. 

But in the end Dumbledore is still Harry's epitome of goodness, the
person he checks himself against when he wants to know whether he's
done the right thing. It's very telling at the end of DH, first that
Harry goes against his instinct and checks himself at all, and second,
that he takes Dumbledore's counsel over Hermione's.

I guess we  are never going to agree on whether students have the
right to talk back to their teachers. So I will just point out that
Harry allows Zacharias Smith to be threatened with bodily harm for
talking back to him at the first DA meeting. 

It certainly doesn't occur to Harry that maybe Smith has a right
to be offensive considering that Harry rudely refuses to talk about
what happened to Smith's housemate Diggory. Nope, Harry makes up his
mind that Zacharias is a smart mouth, and deals with him on that basis. 

Nor does Harry think he should be lenient because Marietta had a bad
situation at home. He points out that other people had a bad situation
and didn't betray their classmates, and he might have said that others
were offended with him and didn't think it gave them a right to act
out in class. 

For all I know, Snape always picks out a student who talks back and
one who creates mischief to punish during his first class, so that
everyone will know what happens to students who act that way. He may
not particularly care if the student in question is actually guilty or
not, and he might have picked Harry just to show that no one, not even
a celebrity, is above being punished in his class.

That's not very fair. But it's a heckuva lot fairer than not letting
the students know what punishment they might risk  cough*Hermione*cough.

> Alla:
> 
> 
> I thought Dumbledore had a perfect opportunity there to mend 
> animosity between them if he gave a bit different speech to Harry at
 the end of PS. 

Pippin:
Did he really want to mend it at that point?
He couldn't tell Harry the truth without breaking his agreement with
Snape. And Snape had to go on sneering at Harry whatever his private
opinion might be, because making Voldemort think that Harry was a
mediocre wizard was part of The Plan.  Harry, too young to be told
this,  had to be given an explanation that would account for Snape's
continuing disdain. 

 Voldemort's illusions did help Harry to survive, so it served its
purpose. I do think helping Harry to survive is a greater good than
making sure Harry loves all his teachers and reaches his maximum
potential at potions. YMMV. 

Pippin
who keeps trying to type "maximum potional" :)









From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Feb 14 16:26:23 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 16:26:23 -0000
Subject: Snuffles and Re: question about crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <gn4m3b+527s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn6rbf+k3j5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185825

 
> zanooda:
> 
> Maybe it's not exactly a language, but more like mental images? That
> would explain "bloodstains" communicated to Sirius :-). Maybe Sirius
> used the word "told" just for simplicity's sake.

Potioncat:
First the Snuffles part. Boy, did that nickname get a go-over by this 
group! 

We have a new dog in the family. He's a beagle---or a mostly beagle. 
When we go outside you can "hear" him smelling. The first time we 
went out I actually thought, "What is that noise?" Honest to 
goodness, it is a very loud snuffle. For that matter, you can see his 
nose working--must have as many muscles in his nose as an elephant 
has in its trunk.

Had I been the one to choose his name it would have been Snuffles at 
that point. However, he had already been named after anothr fictional 
dog with powers---Snoopy.

We also have a cat. Trust me, the two communicate. The cat took her 
time welcoming the dog into the family---but she had been best pals 
with our late dog--and the new pair are warming up to each other.

No, I don't know if they use words or mental images. They haven't 
communicated that to me.

For that matter, when one of our neighbors walks his dog he has to 
stop to let the dog visit a another neighbor's cat along the way. So 
I think JKR was playing with that sort of relationship between 
Snuffles and Crookshanks.

Carol, when were Crookshanks and Snape together? I seem to recall it 
as well though, thinking that Crookshanks didn't seem to mistrust 
Snape.

 
> > Joey wrote:
> 
> > There is another question I had. At one point, Sirius
> > mentions "Crookshanks, did you call him?" (when he explains 
> > his past to HRH in PoA climax). I think none had addressed 
> > Crookshanks by his name that night for Sirius to make 
> > that remark. If I'm right, what was Sirius talking about then?

Potioncat:
Maybe Crookshanks had introduced himself by his real name, the one 
humans never learn, but had added, "they call me Crookshanks."

Potioncat, with a nod to T.S. Elliott. 







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 14 17:38:24 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 17:38:24 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn6q64+74hu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn6vig+10r2r@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185826

> > Alla:
> Any other 
> > example of Snape treating student the way he treats Harry during 
the
>  lessons (besides Neville and Hermione) and not outside the 
classroom?
> 
> Pippin:
> Snape says that most of his students are dunderheads, and he doesn't
> expect any of them to really appreciate his subject. Harry notices
> that Snape criticizes almost everyone except Draco. Hagrid confirms
> that Snape hardly likes any of his students. Demeaning and critical
> *is* neutral, for Snape. Not that I expect you to like him for it. 
But
> keep reading.

Alla:

I still have no idea whatsoever, whom else in the books Snape 
criticizes as much as Harry and Neville and we can throw Hermione in 
of course. Oh and of course I do not think Snape criticizes any of 
the Slytherins in the classroom. So demeaning and critical may be 
neutral for Snape ... as to Gryffindors that is, but of course that 
standard does not apply to any Slytherins at all IMO. And Harry takes 
the first place with the amount of demeaning IMO.

> > Alla:
> > 
> > He does not **know** anything about Harry's character yet Pippin, 
> > when he makes his *celebrity* comment. That is my point.
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> But Harry *is* arrogant, and Snape would have discovered that
> very soon. 

Alla:

In your opinion he is, in mine - not at all, I would describe what he 
does is that he is willing to stand up to bullies. It is not 
arrogance to me, it is standing up for what you believe is right and 
taking a stand.

Pippin:
It  would have rubbed him the wrong way even if
> Harry didn't physically resemble James any more than Draco looks 
like
> Dudley.

Alla:

And I would have **significantly** less problems with it if Snape 
arrived to this conclusion after teaching Harry say for a year. NOT 
after one lesson. Meaning that not that I agree that Harry is 
arrogant, but that if Snape after teaching Harry for a year came to 
that conclusion. I would still thought him to be incorrect, but hey 
over the year he would have observed enough of **Harry** for me to 
decide that he made such conclusion based on whom he thinks **Harry** 
is.


Pippin:
>And  Harry would  have been put off by Snape's cruelty even if
> it had never been directed at him, and no one had warned him about 
it.

Alla:

Quite possible.

Pippin:
> I don't think that Snape and Harry ever would have wanted to be
> friends, though they might have found it rewarding if they could 
have
> overlooked one another's failings. 

Alla:

The crucial difference between what you seem to argue and my view is 
that I would never put an equal burden for overlooking each other 
fallings on eleven year old student and thirty six year old teacher, 
never ever. What I think is that Harry and Snape could have been more 
productive if Harry would not have been antagonized against him since 
the first lesson. I do not know if they would have wanted to be great 
friends, but I speculate that if their five years relationship 
leading to occlumency lessons was different, those lessons could have 
been different too.


Pippin: 
> I think that JKR is saying that supposing someone has the
> characteristics assumed to be typical of their group is pretty 
normal.
>  And it's fair to assume there are typical tendencies in a group
> that's self-selected -- birds of a feather do flock together, after
> all. And it's natural that some tendencies are more appealing to
> particular people than others.
> 
> But it's  awful   to be so intolerant of a particular
> tendency that it keeps you from seeing the person who has it as any
> good at all. And it can be equally dangerous to be so taken with an
> attractive tendency that it masks everything that's bad.


Alla:

To apply it to first lesson you seem to be saying that JKR is saying 
that it is quite all right to assume that the child you never met is 
a swell headed celebrity, arrogant jerk and it is totally fine to 
treat him that way.

But it is totally bad if that child will not recognize that the 
teacher who feels that way has some good in him and can be a hero too?

Is that what you are arguing JKR is saying? If it is correct, I can 
only say, I hope she says nothing of the kind.

Pippin: 
> Snape could not recognize the things Harry had in common with Lily.
> Harry did not see how much Snape had in common with his hero,
> Dumbledore, until he was able to look past Snape's cruelty and sees 
his
> courage. And of course, he had to learn to look past Dumbledore's
> twinkly facade of harmless benignity, too. 

Alla:

And who should have been trying harder to see it? Eleven years old or 
thirty six year old? Because yes, Harry praises his courage, etc and 
as JKR said, Harry forgives him, but Snape loathes him till the very 
end.


Pippin:
<SNIP>
> I guess we  are never going to agree on whether students have the
> right to talk back to their teachers. <SNIP>

Alla:

No, we are never going to agree as to whether teachers have a right 
to talk to students who have not talked back to them the way Snape 
did to Harry. We are never going to agree as to teachers can make a 
spectacle out of the student on the first lesson if they did not give 
homework yet and said child only learned that the magic exists days 
ago (or was it weeks, still does not make much difference to me). We 
are never going to agree on that. I am snipping the example about 
Zacharia Smith talking back to Harry because I do not see the 
relevance. I am not disputing that quite often students should be 
punished for talking back to teachers. It is Snape's conduct that 
LEAD to Harry's answer that I find the most objectionable and in that 
light I do not find Harry's particular answer as bad (or cheek).


Pippin:
<SNIP>
> Nor does Harry think he should be lenient because Marietta had a bad
> situation at home. He points out that other people had a bad 
situation
> and didn't betray their classmates, and he might have said that 
others
> were offended with him and didn't think it gave them a right to act
> out in class. 

Pippin: 
> For all I know, Snape always picks out a student who talks back and
> one who creates mischief to punish during his first class, so that
> everyone will know what happens to students who act that way. He may
> not particularly care if the student in question is actually guilty 
or
> not, and he might have picked Harry just to show that no one, not 
even
> a celebrity, is above being punished in his class. <SNIP>

Alla:

You may know it but till I read about it in the book, I certainly do 
not. I cannot argue with your assumption, since I certainly make 
mine, but I will just say I am not taking it as anything more but an 
assumption.

I do not even see that this can be inferred from anything. He picked 
up on Harry for all I know because he hates him that much. It is 
shown that he can easily insult everybody, but I had not seen him 
picking *special* victim besides Harry, Neville and Hermione.



>> > Alla:
> > 
> > 
> > I thought Dumbledore had a perfect opportunity there to mend 
> > animosity between them if he gave a bit different speech to Harry 
at
>  the end of PS. 
> 
> Pippin:
> Did he really want to mend it at that point?
> He couldn't tell Harry the truth without breaking his agreement with
> Snape. <SNIP>

Alla:

What truth? I am saying that nothing would be at risk if Harry was 
told that Snape was doing his job as a teacher, that's all. But you 
get no argument from me, I am getting more and more convinced that 
Albus wanted their animosity to continue.

Potioncat:
It seems that many of the Hogwarts staff was eager to meet the son of
James and Lily---and it seems his fame as The Boy Who Lived played
some part in the teachers' eagerness. Flitwick, bless his soul, lost
control at the actual meeting. He didn't fall on purpose.

Alla:

Heh, of course not. I was saying that his fall was embarrassing for 
Flitiwick, not for Harry IMO.

Potioncat:
Snape was expecting a swelled-headed James Potter in his class. A
disruption by his very presence. He was diffusing the celebrity--at
least in his classroom.

Alla:

I am saying that Snape should have based any expectations that he may 
have of Harry based on *Harry* , you know?

Potioncat:
Was it nice? No. Was it right? Not sure. McGonagall didn't have a
problem with the celebrity, but she had a classroom of only
Gryffindors, and Harry's celebrity reflected well on her house.

Alla:

To me McGonagall was concentrating on the *lesson* she was indeed 
laying down the rules, that she is a tough teacher, to everybody, and 
everybody will suffer if they do not study hard. She was not talking 
about anything unrelated to the classroom at all. I loved it.


Potioncat:
I really enjoyed the way JKR slowly revealed the story over the 7
books. Knowing more about the Snape/Evans/Potter history helps
explain some of Snape's motivation.

Alla:

I enjoyed it too.

Potioncat:
 Although, I still find it
difficult to understand why Snape doesn't see anything of Lily in
Harry. Unless he also blames Harry for Lily's death.

Alla:

That is horrible if he does though IMO.

Alla





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 14 17:55:16 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 17:55:16 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn6vig+10r2r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn70i4+9osi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185827

> Alla:
> 
> And I would have **significantly** less problems with it if Snape 
> arrived to this conclusion after teaching Harry say for a year. NOT 
> after one lesson. Meaning that not that I agree that Harry is 
> arrogant, but that if Snape after teaching Harry for a year came to 
> that conclusion. I would still thought him to be incorrect, but hey 
> over the year he would have observed enough of **Harry** for me to 
> decide that he made such conclusion based on whom he thinks **Harry** 
> is.

Magpie:
I honestly think that the big issue in the first Snape/Harry scene is 
that Snape really does hate Harry and that comes through loud and clear 
to Harry. It's not, imo, just that Snape chooses to ask Harry a 
question and put him on the spot, or even snarks at him for being a 
celebrity. I actually can imagine a teacher doing that as part of the 
way he just deals with kids. I wouldn't be shocked if Snape did select 
a random kid to show his ignorance the first day.

But Snape is incapable of randomly choosing Harry for this because he 
loathes him. So imo something that might come across as just "this 
teacher's a jerk" or "this teacher uses sarcasm and humiliation to make 
a point the first day" in another class comes across as a personal 
hatred of Harry in this one. What it always comes down to to me is that 
it's not even like Harry ends that first class, iirc, by saying he 
hates Snape. It's that he's shocked by feeling like Snape hates *him*. 
And he's correct. Snape's behavior in the first class isn't pleasant 
for Harry, but I don't think it would have been as big a deal as it was 
if Snape was just obnoxious to Gryffindors. He might dislike him as a 
teacher, but I don't think he'd grow to hate him the way he does. The 
hatred comes from the feeling that Snape has something against him 
personally, and the more he learns about why Snape hates him personally 
the more he hates Snape. 

-m




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Feb 14 19:14:23 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:14:23 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn70i4+9osi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn756f+3le8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185828

 
> Magpie:
> I honestly think that the big issue in the first Snape/Harry scene is 
> that Snape really does hate Harry and that comes through loud and 
clear 
> to Harry. It's not, imo, just that Snape chooses to ask Harry a 
> question and put him on the spot, or even snarks at him for being a 
> celebrity. 

Potioncat:
Do you think Snape had been hating Harry all these years since Lily's 
death--and was prepared to keep hating him?

I can imagine he may have resented the fact that Harry--who was the 
reason Lily died---had survived. But I'm not sure I can understand that 
he was prepared to hate the boy on sight.

Would Snape have reacted the same way, do you think, if Harry had 
looked more like Lily?




From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sat Feb 14 19:21:07 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:21:07 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn6vig+10r2r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn75j3+10vk3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185829

 
> Alla:
> 
> I still have no idea whatsoever, whom else in the books Snape 
> criticizes as much as Harry and Neville and we can throw Hermione in
 of course.

Pippin:
But my point is,  Snape doesn't have anything personal against Neville
or Hermione. We often speculated that he must, but it didn't turn out
that way. They just irritate him -- Neville by doing the worst work in
the class, and Hermione by being an insufferable know-it-all.

Harry irritates him too, and Harry knows it, he just can't understand
 *why*. IMO, Snape doesn't tolerate backtalk or mischief from any
student, but he's much more sensitive when it comes from Harry,
because Harry irritates him already.

I agree, Snape started out being irritated with Harry before Harry had
given him any reason. I am not holding Harry responsible for that,
just pointing out that by the time Snape and Dumbledore have their
conversation about the way Harry is being treated, Snape  had real
reasons to be irritated by the way Harry acts.


Alla:
Oh and of course I do not think Snape criticizes any of 
> the Slytherins in the classroom. 

Pippin:
"He swept around in his long black cloak, watching them weight dried
nettles and crush snake fangs, cricitizing almost everyone except
Malfoy, whom he seemed to like." Ps/SS ch 8.

"Almost everyone except Draco"  must include Slytherins. The narrator
doesn't give us any specific examples --  it's written in that 
plain-brown-wrapper style JKR loves. I suppose I should be glad that
she turned her hand to novels and not propaganda.
 
> > Pippin:
> > But Harry *is* arrogant, and Snape would have discovered that
> > very soon. 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> In your opinion he is, in mine - not at all,

Pippin:
My opinion and JKR's. You don't have to agree with her opinion that
Harry is arrogant. But when she shows Snape referring to Harry's
arrogance, she means him to be reacting to something that is really
there, not a delusion. It is neither more nor less relevant than her
description of Snape as a sadistic teacher who abuses his power, or of
Dumbledore as the epitome of goodness.

I agree it is not arrogance to stand up to a bully. But it is arrogant
to be  shocked when he retaliates.

It is arrogance to disrespect one's teacher. If Harry got away with
that kind of thing at his Muggle school, I can only guess it was
because his teachers were intimidated after the wig-turning-blue
thing. Or maybe they suspected the Dursleys were abusive and didn't
want to get Harry in trouble at home.

If Zacharias Smith thinks that  Harry's methods are offensive, he has
every right to leave the class, or to complain of Harry to rightful
authority (another reason I don't like what Hermione did). But he
doesn't have the right to disrupt the class by challenging Harry.
Harry is there to teach, not to defend his methods. 


> Alla:
> 
> The crucial difference between what you seem to argue and my view is
that I would never put an equal burden for overlooking each other 
> fallings on eleven year old student and thirty six year old teacher,
 never ever. 

Pippin:
I am not putting any burden on Harry, except that he should not have
disrespected Snape in class. I am not saying that he should have been
able to concentrate on his work in spite of Snape's needling, or
anything like that. I wouldn't expect him to overlook the way he was
treated, any more than Snape could overlook the way he was treated by
James. 

As far as occlumency, JKR says that Harry had no aptitude for it, so
Snape's attitude cannot be the primary reason for Harry's failure. He
might have made a little more progress. But there's just no way he
could have become good enough at occlumency to block Voldemort. It'd
be like teaching a tone deaf person to sing grand opera. It would be a
purely miserable experience to go through with an unsympathetic
teacher, but a sympathetic teacher would still fail.

OTOH, if Harry actually were gifted at Occlumency, it might have toned
down Snape's hostility a bit. It does tone down, IMO, when he is
teaching DADA, where Harry is indeed gifted.

 
> Alla:
> 
> To apply it to first lesson you seem to be saying that JKR is saying
 that it is quite all right to assume that the child you never met is
 a swell headed celebrity, arrogant jerk and it is totally fine to 
treat him that way.

Pippin:
Normal was  the wrong word -- I should have said, commonplace. I
haven't met enough celebrities to know whether it's really rare to
meet one with the common touch. But people seem to think it is.
Certainly there are enough swell-headed celebrities in the WW that it
might be a shock to meet one that wasn't. 

Alla:
> But it is totally bad if that child will not recognize that the 
> teacher who feels that way has some good in him and can be a hero too?

Pippin:
After that teacher saves your life? Yeah, that is a bit, well,
arrogant, IMO. Even Hermione thinks it is a bit much that Harry won't
acknowledge the possibility. 

> Alla:
> 
> And who should have been trying harder to see it? Eleven years old
or  thirty six year old? Because yes, Harry praises his courage, etc
and  as JKR said, Harry forgives him, but Snape loathes him till the
very end.

Pippin:
An eleven year old has a right to wounds that are too deep for the
healing, but a thirty six year old does not? That is the part I don't
understand.

Pippin






From sherriola at gmail.com  Sat Feb 14 19:40:07 2009
From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 11:40:07 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn75j3+10vk3@eGroups.com>
References: <gn6vig+10r2r@eGroups.com> <gn75j3+10vk3@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <959B6D4B65FF4377B91CDA5D158B9F09@Pensieve>

No: HPFGUIDX 185830

Pippin:
An eleven year old has a right to wounds that are too deep for the healing,
but a thirty six year old does not? That is the part I don't understand.



Sherry:
I can't speak for Alla, but in my opinion, of course the 36-year-old has the
right to his emotional wounds, even though they are too deep to heal.  Most
people have some wounds like that; I know I sure do.  But that does not give
the adult, the teacher, the 36-year-old the right to take out those wounded
feelings and reactions on a child.  The responsibility not to act upon those
things lies with an adult.  In the real world, I have no patience for the
attitude that adults can do things from emotionally destructive to criminal,
just because they had bad childhoods, or whatever other excuses they come up
with.  Surely adults can learn how to, if not heal and put those things
aside, how not to punish others, especially children, because of those
wounds.  It's why, for me, nothing Snape does later negates how he treated
Harry all those years.  or how he treated Neville.  He can certainly have
his deep wounds, and I can feel sorrow for the things that caused them, but
he gains no sympathy or acceptance from me for taking it out on kids.  Grow
up, Snape, is what I often found myself thinking with exasperation.  

Sherry




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 14 19:58:31 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 19:58:31 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn756f+3le8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn77p7+8l6a@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185831

> > Magpie:
> > I honestly think that the big issue in the first Snape/Harry 
scene is 
> > that Snape really does hate Harry and that comes through loud and 
> clear 
> > to Harry. It's not, imo, just that Snape chooses to ask Harry a 
> > question and put him on the spot, or even snarks at him for being 
a 
> > celebrity. 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Do you think Snape had been hating Harry all these years since 
Lily's 
> death--and was prepared to keep hating him?
> 
> I can imagine he may have resented the fact that Harry--who was the 
> reason Lily died---had survived. But I'm not sure I can understand 
that 
> he was prepared to hate the boy on sight.
> Would Snape have reacted the same way, do you think, if Harry had 
> looked more like Lily?

Magpie:
I think he may have hated him as an abstraction already. But when he 
showed up looking like James he reacted with hatred, however he'd 
felt before that, and that kept on going. I think it's quite possible 
he would have reacted differently if Harry had looked more like Lily. 
I suspect he still would have sent out some kind of personal vibe, 
but it might not have been so easily correctly identified by Harry.

-m




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 14 20:04:54 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 20:04:54 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn77p7+8l6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn7856+g380@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185832

Magpie:
I honestly think that the big issue in the first Snape/Harry scene is
that Snape really does hate Harry and that comes through loud and 
clear
to Harry. It's not, imo, just that Snape chooses to ask Harry a
question and put him on the spot, or even snarks at him for being a
celebrity. I actually can imagine a teacher doing that as part of the
way he just deals with kids. I wouldn't be shocked if Snape did select
a random kid to show his ignorance the first day.
<SNIP>

Alla:

I think I find myself confused as to what you meant here. I mean 
obviously we agree that Snape hates Harry and Harry is correct, but 
you are also saying that you are thinking that his methods as to 
other student, in another class, may come across as not personal, etc.

I mean, I do not like the idea of asking questions for the purpose of 
humiliating student, but if it is Snape's technique, it is Snape's 
technique. It is just I see no proof that it was used on somebody 
else, ever.

Now his talk about celebrity I find inexcusable, no matter what. But 
what I am trying to ask you is that if for you his methods per se 
could be legitimate, how do you think Harry knows that Snape hates 
him?

Just a feeling? I mean, yes, sure we can sometimes tell that person 
just hates us and be correct, it is just to me the fact that Snape 
hates Harry comes through in what he does and say.

Are you saying that Harry just feeling it subconsciously?

Alla:
> But it is totally bad if that child will not recognize that the
> teacher who feels that way has some good in him and can be a hero 
too?

Pippin:
<SNIP>
After that teacher saves your life? Yeah, that is a bit, well,
arrogant, IMO. Even Hermione thinks it is a bit much that Harry won't
acknowledge the possibility. <SNIP>

Alla:

I meant after the first lesson actually ? way before Snape saves his 
life and I already gave my reasons as to why I think it is perfectly 
normal to feel the way Harry does if the reason he had been given is 
to keep hating his dad in peace, so I won't go there again.

> Alla:
>
> And who should have been trying harder to see it? Eleven years old
or thirty six year old? Because yes, Harry praises his courage, etc
and as JKR said, Harry forgives him, but Snape loathes him till the
very end.

Pippin:
An eleven year old has a right to wounds that are too deep for the
healing, but a thirty six year old does not? That is the part I don't
understand.
Alla:

That is an incorrect summary of what I said. But Sherry already 
responded and I agree.

Magpie:
I think he may have hated him as an abstraction already. But when he
showed up looking like James he reacted with hatred, however he'd
felt before that, and that kept on going. I think it's quite possible
he would have reacted differently if Harry had looked more like Lily.
I suspect he still would have sent out some kind of personal vibe,
but it might not have been so easily correctly identified by Harry.

Alla:

I agree, but I still wonder sometimes why he turned blind eye on him 
having Lily's eyes.





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Sat Feb 14 20:31:30 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 20:31:30 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn7856+g380@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn79n2+2o54@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185833

> Alla:
> 
> I think I find myself confused as to what you meant here. I mean 
> obviously we agree that Snape hates Harry and Harry is correct, but 
> you are also saying that you are thinking that his methods as to 
> other student, in another class, may come across as not personal, 
etc.
> 
> I mean, I do not like the idea of asking questions for the purpose 
of 
> humiliating student, but if it is Snape's technique, it is Snape's 
> technique. It is just I see no proof that it was used on somebody 
> else, ever.
> 
> Now his talk about celebrity I find inexcusable, no matter what. 
But 
> what I am trying to ask you is that if for you his methods per se 
> could be legitimate, how do you think Harry knows that Snape hates 
> him?
> 
> Just a feeling? I mean, yes, sure we can sometimes tell that person 
> just hates us and be correct, it is just to me the fact that Snape 
> hates Harry comes through in what he does and say.
> 
> Are you saying that Harry just feeling it subconsciously?

Magpie:
I guess part of it is just a feeling, but it's not like a mystical 
thing. I think it's got to do with the way Snape is zeroing in on 
him, that kids immediately pick up on as not just a jerk teacher 
putting on a show of being a jerk, but Snape picking on this one boy. 
The celebrity comment is a big clue because that shows Snape knowing 
it's Harry Potter he's picking on. But another teacher could even 
have made that work in a lighter way. But I feel like, especially 
knowing Snape and how he wears emotions on his sleeve when he's not 
doing Occlumency etc., his whole demeanor and tone of voice is making 
an impression on Harry. 

I mean, we've all probably had situations like that in life where the 
same words can come across differently depending on the way the 
person feels. When I read back on this scene I'm often surprised at 
Snape being *less* mean to Harry than I remember it. He gets much 
worse to him later on. But I also don't think he stays within the 
limits of a strict teacher making an objective point to his students. 
He stays on Harry too much to be doing that. That's another reason, 
imo, that the kids in the class can pick up on his dislike. I think 
the Slytherins also correctly picked up on its being okay for them to 
enjoy Harry's distress--where as an objective teacher might lure them 
in to thinking that and then quickly turn it on them to show them not 
to be too cocky. 

> Magpie:
> I think he may have hated him as an abstraction already. But when he
> showed up looking like James he reacted with hatred, however he'd
> felt before that, and that kept on going. I think it's quite 
possible
> he would have reacted differently if Harry had looked more like 
Lily.
> I suspect he still would have sent out some kind of personal vibe,
> but it might not have been so easily correctly identified by Harry.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I agree, but I still wonder sometimes why he turned blind eye on 
him 
> having Lily's eyes.

Magpie:
The sight of Lily's eyes in James' face might have been a real turn-
off! It's possibly that Harry could have looked exactly like Lily and 
Snape would have hated him just as much. His looking like James was a 
handy distraction in a lot of ways!

-m




From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net  Sat Feb 14 20:38:52 2009
From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 20:38:52 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn70i4+9osi@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn7a4s+5uh4@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185834

Magpie:
> I honestly think that the big issue in the first Snape/Harry scene 
> is that Snape really does hate Harry and that comes through loud 
> and clear to Harry. It's not, imo, just that Snape chooses to ask 
> Harry a question and put him on the spot, or even snarks at him for 
> being a celebrity. 
<snip>
> But Snape is incapable of randomly choosing Harry for this because 
> he loathes him. <snip> What it always comes down to to me is that 
> it's not even like Harry ends that first class, iirc, by saying he 
> hates Snape. It's that he's shocked by feeling like Snape hates 
> *him*. And he's correct. <snip> The hatred comes from the feeling 
> that Snape has something against him personally, and the more he 
> learns about why Snape hates him personally the more he hates 
> Snape. 


SSSusan:
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!  Thank you for stating what is the 
key to this scene for me.  Many individuals have been looking at the 
words and saying, "What's the big deal?"  This is just a teacher 
establishing the way his class is going to run, or, This is just a 
teacher doing what he probably always does and making an example of 
one kid.  What is being ignored in looking just at words, though, is 
the HATRED that Harry is seeing, feeling and sensing from Snape. And 
keep in mind that this follows quite shortly after having sensed the 
same loathing from Snape in the first moment Harry laid eyes on him.  
They have *no* history (that Harry knows of), and yet this guy seems 
to seriously hate him!  

As to Harry's being arrogant, a point made in a different post by 
Pippin, I just don't see where that comes from.  At age 11, in first 
year, Harry is arrogant?  And he's been arrogant in ways that Snape 
*witnessed* or would have heard about?  Or is the allegation just 
that Harry is arrogant and Snape guessed right about it, so that's 
okay then?  

Nah, I'm with Alla on this.  When a kid comes into your class the 
first day of his first year and you have never met him, never spoken 
with him, have no history with him *and there's no one else there who 
would have known him well enough to declare that he is arrogant,* why 
in the world would you go ahead & treat him as though you know it for 
a fact and he needs to be brought down a notch?  As a teacher, you 
might wonder, you might suspect, but to go ahead & assume and act on 
it?  Pretty ridiculous, imo.  

I would have been much more likely to accept the argument that it's 
possible this grilling of one student is a routine part of Snape's 
1st day with "dunderhead" 1st years.  One could easily envision that, 
I think.  Yet, getting back to Magpie's point, what makes it 
different and unacceptable to me is that Snape *does* hate Harry, and 
Harry, while not understanding it, can sense it.  That's just plain 
wrong.

Siriusly Snapey Susan







From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 14 21:46:12 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 21:46:12 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn6vig+10r2r@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn7e34+kfdj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185835

> Alla:
> 
> I still have no idea whatsoever, whom else in the books Snape 
> criticizes as much as Harry and Neville and we can throw Hermione in 
> of course. Oh and of course I do not think Snape criticizes any of 
> the Slytherins in the classroom. So demeaning and critical may be 
> neutral for Snape ... as to Gryffindors that is, but of course that 
> standard does not apply to any Slytherins at all IMO. And Harry takes 
> the first place with the amount of demeaning IMO.

Montavilla47:
Well, of course it does.  This is Harry's story.  Maybe Snape is 
more horrible to, say, Terry Boot, and we never see it because 
Harry doesn't share Potions class with the Ravenclaws.  But what
we *do* see in that very first class, because it is in the book is that
Snape criticizes *everybody* but Malfoy.  That must include all
the Slytherins except for Malfoy.  

If Harry doesn't single out any of Snape's criticisms of the Slytherins,
then either they weren't memorably harsh, or they didn't matter much
to Harry or the story.  But either way, Snape does criticize everyone
but Malfoy.


> Pippin: 
> > I think that JKR is saying that supposing someone has the
> > characteristics assumed to be typical of their group is pretty 
> normal.
> >  And it's fair to assume there are typical tendencies in a group
> > that's self-selected -- birds of a feather do flock together, after
> > all. And it's natural that some tendencies are more appealing to
> > particular people than others.
> > 
> > But it's  awful   to be so intolerant of a particular
> > tendency that it keeps you from seeing the person who has it as any
> > good at all. And it can be equally dangerous to be so taken with an
> > attractive tendency that it masks everything that's bad.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> To apply it to first lesson you seem to be saying that JKR is saying 
> that it is quite all right to assume that the child you never met is 
> a swell headed celebrity, arrogant jerk and it is totally fine to 
> treat him that way.
> 
> But it is totally bad if that child will not recognize that the 
> teacher who feels that way has some good in him and can be a hero too?
> 
> Is that what you are arguing JKR is saying? If it is correct, I can 
> only say, I hope she says nothing of the kind.

Montavilla47:
Not that Pippin needs any help from me to argue a point, but I think 
you are misunderstanding.  You're pushing things to an extreme, which
is something that we all tend to do--and which SSSusan rightly called
me out for.

Nobody is saying that Harry is "bad" for having his reaction to Snape's
behavior in the first class.  Not even me.  What I am saying is that I 
think that Snape's behavior is not entirely based on hatred of James
and that it isn't even beyond the norm for a strict, demanding teacher.

Nor is anybody saying that Snape (or any teacher) ought to be basing
their impression of a child based on a single incident--or from any
experiences they had with their parents.   Although, I suspect that in 
the real world, many a teacher will have their perspective on a child 
influenced by any experience they have had with parents or older 
siblings.  

But getting back to the point:  It isn't that either Harry or Snape
is wrong here.  It's that neither of them revises their opinion of 
the other--until Snape's death.  Even after observing Harry for
several years, Snape still thought he was annoying and arrogant.
Even after learning that Snape was invested in protecting him, 
Harry saw him as interfering, out to get him, and probably evil.

Neither one was completely right about the other.

> Pippin: 
> > Snape could not recognize the things Harry had in common with Lily.
> > Harry did not see how much Snape had in common with his hero,
> > Dumbledore, until he was able to look past Snape's cruelty and sees 
> his
> > courage. And of course, he had to learn to look past Dumbledore's
> > twinkly facade of harmless benignity, too. 
> 
> Alla:
> And who should have been trying harder to see it? Eleven years old or 
> thirty six year old? Because yes, Harry praises his courage, etc and 
> as JKR said, Harry forgives him, but Snape loathes him till the very 
> end.

Montavilla47:
Well, we don't know that Snape loathes Harry at the end, and Snape
doesn't have the advantage that Harry has, of viewing the string of
memories that details (and nicely organizes) Snape's life into an 
easily digested narrative.

> Potioncat:
> It seems that many of the Hogwarts staff was eager to meet the son of
> James and Lily---and it seems his fame as The Boy Who Lived played
> some part in the teachers' eagerness. Flitwick, bless his soul, lost
> control at the actual meeting. He didn't fall on purpose.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Heh, of course not. I was saying that his fall was embarrassing for 
> Flitiwick, not for Harry IMO.

Montavilla47:
I would think it would be embarrassing for Harry as well--at least a
little and here's why:  The next year, Lockhart makes a bigger fool of
himself and Harry finds that highly embarrassing.  He also finds 
Colin Creevey embarrassing.  You could argue that both of those
people are only embarrassing themselves--but it's evident that Harry
*hates* the attention that both of them bring to him.  

He even gets embarrassed by Ginny's attentions--and again, Ginny
is really only embarrassing herself.






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 14 22:27:58 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 22:27:58 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn7e34+kfdj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn7ghe+hk6i@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185836

Magpie:
I guess part of it is just a feeling, but it's not like a mystical
thing. I think it's got to do with the way Snape is zeroing in on
him, that kids immediately pick up on as not just a jerk teacher
putting on a show of being a jerk, but Snape picking on this one boy.
The celebrity comment is a big clue because that shows Snape knowing
it's Harry Potter he's picking on. But another teacher could even
have made that work in a lighter way. But I feel like, especially
knowing Snape and how he wears emotions on his sleeve when he's not
doing Occlumency etc., his whole demeanor and tone of voice is making
an impression on Harry. <SNIP>

Alla:

See, that is the reason why I like old topics even if we had been 
through them gazillions times and know each other many arguments by 
heart. It is that sometimes somebody says something that makes me 
look at the scene in the sort of new light. THANK YOU. It makes sense 
to me that another teacher could make the same drill sound totally 
different, if there is no personal history.

I mean, before anybody asks, I am not saying that I think what Snape 
does is okay at all, but I get how the feeling that Harry gets is the 
main issue here. Thanks Magpie.


Alla:
> To apply it to first lesson you seem to be saying that JKR is saying
> that it is quite all right to assume that the child you never met is
> a swell headed celebrity, arrogant jerk and it is totally fine to
> treat him that way.
>
> But it is totally bad if that child will not recognize that the
> teacher who feels that way has some good in him and can be a hero 
too?
>
> Is that what you are arguing JKR is saying? If it is correct, I can
> only say, I hope she says nothing of the kind.

Montavilla47:
Not that Pippin needs any help from me to argue a point, but I think
you are misunderstanding. You're pushing things to an extreme, which
is something that we all tend to do--and which SSSusan rightly called
me out for.

Alla:

Yes, I know in the heat of the argument we all tend to inflate our 
positions sometimes. And I certainly  had done it in the past ? not 
because I like to do that, but because it just happens sometimes. But 
that is why I did ask Pippin to clarify and her reply upthread 
convinces me that I did not misunderstand her at all.



Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
Nobody is saying that Harry is "bad" for having his reaction to 
Snape's
behavior in the first class. Not even me. What I am saying is that I
think that Snape's behavior is not entirely based on hatred of James
and that it isn't even beyond the norm for a strict, demanding 
teacher.

Alla:

Yes, I know. I am just disagreeing with what you are saying. Just as 
Magpie and Susan said, hatred in this scene to me pours of the pages 
very strongly. I totally understand that you are saying it could be a 
norm for a strict teacher. What I am saying and again I just do not 
see what I am misunderstanding or pushing is this : a) I do not like 
the teacher for whom such model is a norm; b) even if it can be 
called a legitimate technique, the way Snape does it is NOT 
legitimate at all and  Harry can feel it.

Montavilla47:
Nor is anybody saying that Snape (or any teacher) ought to be basing
their impression of a child based on a single incident--or from any
experiences they had with their parents.

Alla:

Yes again, I know you are not saying it. 


Montavilla47:
But getting back to the point: It isn't that either Harry or Snape
is wrong here. It's that neither of them revises their opinion of
the other--until Snape's death. Even after observing Harry for
several years, Snape still thought he was annoying and arrogant.
Even after learning that Snape was invested in protecting him,
Harry saw him as interfering, out to get him, and probably evil.

Neither one was completely right about the other.

Alla:

I totally understand what you are saying, but I am now wondering if  
my position is being clear. Yes, none of them was completely right 
about each other.  My point is that I think that the one who was 
**first** wrong  was Snape and not Harry. And since he is the 
teacher, well, he is the one to blame in my book.

So I agree with everything you wrote except the first sentence. I 
think the only one who is wrong on the first lesson is Snape.

JMO,

Alla





From magnolia11875 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 14 08:19:53 2009
From: magnolia11875 at yahoo.com (magnolia11875)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 08:19:53 -0000
Subject: Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <gn5bio+8m7u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn5ur9+l7ft@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185837


> Potioncat:
> Out of curiosity, did you post this directly, or were you
> replying to posts in another thread? I only ask because the
> next post listed is from 2001. Ancient!
>
> The mark does not seem to be visible at all times. We know
> the mark was groing darker as LV grew stronger,(GoF) but
> whether that was a reflection of his growing strength, or
> something he was doing himself, I don't know.
>
> It's also uncertain if knowledge of the mark was widespread.
> Sirius didn't seem to know about it, and he was in the Order.
>
> The DEs seem to be able to communicate with it, not only to
> LV. but to each other.


This was a completely new post, it just happened to pick up
an older one of the same name.  And thanks for the reply!

Though, can you point out any passages for me to reread to
check some of those facts, like the DEs seeming able to
communicate through them?

Thanks

Tabs



From foxmoth at qnet.com  Sun Feb 15 00:06:17 2009
From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 00:06:17 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <959B6D4B65FF4377B91CDA5D158B9F09@Pensieve>
Message-ID: <gn7m9p+1m6o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185838

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" <sherriola at ...>
wrote:
>
> Pippin:
> An eleven year old has a right to wounds that are too deep for the
healing, but a thirty six year old does not? That is the part I don't
understand.
> 
> 
> 
> Sherry:
> I can't speak for Alla, but in my opinion, of course the 36-year-old
has the right to his emotional wounds, even though they are too deep
to heal.  Most people have some wounds like that; I know I sure do. 
But that does not give the adult, the teacher, the 36-year-old the
right to take out those wounded feelings and reactions on a child. 

Pippin:
I agree, I just don't think that Snape ever understands that he is
doing that. Consciously, IMO, he's reacting to the over-privileged
celebrity he perceives Harry to be. I don't think he has any idea that
this is a delusion. That's where the emotional damage comes in. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Draco spun Harry's rejection as snobbery
and Snape got to hear of it. But even if he didn't, ordinary students
aren't Sorted to cheers of "We got Potter!", teachers don't fall off
their chairs, and students don't stand on their tiptoes to stare.

 Harry senses that Snape hates him. But  Snape does nothing that he
doesn't do to students he doesn't hate, and he isn't breaking any
Hogwarts rules that we can point to. There's really no one incident
that says, "Snape wouldn't do this if he didn't hate Harry so much."
That's why we can still argue about whether Snape hated Harry at all,
though I accept JKR's statement that he did. 

 And there's nothing that one can point to, IMO, and say, Snape only
did this to emotionally destroy Harry. 

There's no rule that says teachers have to justify the awarding of
House Points, and many teachers do so in a completely arbitrary way.
There does seem to be a rule about detentions, and I can't recall
Snape ever assigning a detention that Harry hadn't earned. 

That makes it very hard to say, "Stop doing thus and so, or you're
fired. It really isn't sensible, IMO, to say, "Stop making this
student feel like you hate him." Even at eleven, Harry is responsible
for his own feelings. 

And no one is judging Snape and Harry by the same standards. Harry and
his pals do things that would get Snape sacked faster than you could
say, "polyjuice potion."

I don't expect Harry to understand all this as a child, and certainly
not during the first lesson. I do think he came to understand it as an
adult. 

Pippin
going AFK for two weeks starting tomorrow





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 15 00:33:57 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 00:33:57 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn7ghe+hk6i@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn7ntl+ftio@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185839

> Montavilla47:
> But getting back to the point: It isn't that either Harry or Snape
> is wrong here. It's that neither of them revises their opinion of
> the other--until Snape's death. Even after observing Harry for
> several years, Snape still thought he was annoying and arrogant.
> Even after learning that Snape was invested in protecting him,
> Harry saw him as interfering, out to get him, and probably evil.
> 
> Neither one was completely right about the other.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I totally understand what you are saying, but I am now wondering if  
> my position is being clear. Yes, none of them was completely right 
> about each other.  My point is that I think that the one who was 
> **first** wrong  was Snape and not Harry. And since he is the 
> teacher, well, he is the one to blame in my book.
> 
> So I agree with everything you wrote except the first sentence. I 
> think the only one who is wrong on the first lesson is Snape.

Montavilla47:
And yes, of course you're right.  I shouldn't let Snape off the hook.
It's not right to pick on kids when you're the teacher.  

But it's an important part of both their characters that they don't
let it go--either one of them.  That's the tragic (or dramatic) 
aspect of their relationship as characters.  It's also what makes
the defeat of Voldemort possible.  Had Snape ever been able to
let go of Lily, then he wouldn't have cared when she was targeted,
and he wouldn't have begged both Voldemort and Dumbledore to 
save her.  

Had Harry been able to let go of things (specifically this thing!)
he wouldn't have spent a year trying to prevent the teacher who
hates him (and therefore *must* be evil!) from getting the 
Stone.  And then he would never have met and defeated
Quirrelmort.  

And no, I'm *not* crediting Snape with inspiring Harry to 
defeat the Dark Lord.  I'm pointing out a shared characteristic
of their characters.  Ironically, the tenacious quality they share is
a major reason that they never warm up to each other.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sun Feb 15 03:18:22 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 03:18:22 -0000
Subject: Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <gn5ur9+l7ft@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn81hu+4utn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185840

Tabs wrote: 
> This was a completely new post, it just happened to pick up
> an older one of the same name.  And thanks for the reply!
> 
> Though, can you point out any passages for me to reread to
> check some of those facts, like the DEs seeming able to
> communicate through them?


Potioncat:
DH, chpt 23, Malfoy Manor. Lucius and Bella argued over who had the 
honor of summoning the Dark Lord. Just as Lucius was about to touch his 
Dark Mark with his finger, Bella stopped him.

DH chpts 29/30 the Carrows summon LV by pressing the Dark Mark. In 30 
Snape comments that the Carrows had captured an intruder. That makes me 
think that when LV was summoned, Snape was aware as well.




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 15 05:46:54 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 05:46:54 -0000
Subject: Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <gn81hu+4utn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn8a8e+f134@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185841

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

> DH chpts 29/30 the Carrows summon LV by pressing the Dark Mark. 
> In 30 Snape comments that the Carrows had captured an intruder. 
> That makes me think that when LV was summoned, Snape was aware 
> as well.


Also, after Alecto Carrow summoned LV by touching her Mark, Amicus
said to McGonagall: "She's gorn and sent for him (LV), I felt me Mark
burn, and he thinks we've got Potter!"(p.592). It means that when one
DE touches his\her Mark, all of them can feel it, as both Snape and
Amicus prove. Interesting that LV seems to be able to receive their
"messages" without having the Dark Mark himself. How does he do it?


zanooda, completely in the dark about the Dark Mark ... :-).






From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 15 06:19:06 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 06:19:06 -0000
Subject: Snuffles and Re: question about crookshanks
In-Reply-To: <gn6rbf+k3j5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gn8c4q+nmp3@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185842

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

> Carol, when were Crookshanks and Snape together? I seem to 
> recall it as well though, thinking that Crookshanks didn't 
> seem to mistrust Snape.


zanooda:

Carol probably meant the Shrieking Shack - both Snape and Crookshanks
were there at the same time :-). Strange that Crookshanks tried to
protect Sirius from Harry, but not from Snape, when the latter pointed
his wand at Sirius, threatening to kill him, just as Harry did
earlier. Snape and Crookshanks could also meet at 12 GP (at the
beginning of OotP), but it's not shown in the book, iirc.




From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 15 17:58:06 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 15 Feb 2009 17:58:06 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/15/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1234720686.53.99133.m43@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185843

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday February 15, 2009
1:00 pm - 1:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. 

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK


All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2009 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20090215/4890d396/attachment.html>

From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sun Feb 15 23:53:27 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 23:53:27 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn5k49+3le0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gna9tn+sej8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185844

Back on Thursday of last week in post 185790, Carol 
wrote:  
"All of this experience makes him better prepared 
for public humiliation
  

He responds to the first Potions lesson with cheek and to 
the deduction of a point with resentment."

I wrote a reply disagreeing with this view. Unfortunately, the 
message disappeared into one of Yahoo's black holes. I 
was away from home over the weekend visiting my son near 
Oxford and for some reason was unable to access the group
from his computer.

***

However, yesterday, montavilla47 made a similar comment in 
post 185821 and wrote:
"This takes place during the role call of names--Snape is 
reading out*everyone's* names. He's not singling out Harry, 
although he doesn't call anyone else a celebrity. After he 
makes that remark, he continues reading the rest of the 
names on his roster. So, any chagrin Harry might feel at 
being called a celebrity--something that's happened in
at least one other class--he's had time to get over it.

Then Snape begins the class proper by asking questions. 
Once Harry has failed to provide the answers, he gives 
the answers and chews out the rest of the class for not 
writing them down. It's clear that Snape is concerned 
about the *information* he imparting and not focussed 
on humiliating anyone in particular.

After the students start writing down the answer, he
mentions that he's taking a point from Gryffindor for 
Harry cheeking him."

***

In reply, how on earth can it be suggested that Snape 
is not singling out Harry as a celebrity and, in the same 
breath, point out in contradiction that Harry is the only 
pupil so treated?

Does he make any remark ? either good or bad ? about
Draco, or Ron, or Seamus et al? No.

I taught for over thirty years dealing mainly with teenagers 
and I know that cheek comes from those pupils who are 
confident, have a big idea of themselves and are prepared 
try it on with authority figures. Do any of these characteristics 
fit Harry? 

Let's have a look at canon:
`"Ah, yes," he (Snape) said softly, "Harry Potter. Our new 
- celebrity."
Draco Malfoy and his friends Crabbe and Goyle sniggered 
behind their hands.'
(PS "The Potions Master" pp.101/02 UK edition)

Snape pauses and quite deliberately emphasises the word 
`celebrity'. He doesn't check Malfoy and crew over their 
reaction. But he isn't picking on Harry
 Hmm.

`"Potter!" said Snape suddenly. "What would I get if I added 
powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?"



Snape's lips curler into a sneer.
"Tut, tut ? fame clearly isn't everything".
He ignored Hermione's hand
.'
(ibid. p,102)

He then asks a second question, to which Harry cannot reply.

`"Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh, 
Potter?"'

Harry forced himself to keep looking straight into those cold 
eyes. He had looked through  his books at eh Dursleys' but 
did Snape expect him to remember everything in `One 
Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi'?
(ibid. p.102)

Snape continues to concentrate on Harry. note that **no 
other pupil** is being asked questions. Harry then makes his 
reply about asking Hermione. To be cheeky? No. To try to
protect himself and get Snape off his back. OK, a few 
people laughed
 But Harry wasn't trying to score points; 
he was trying to get away from the interrogation.

And to then accuse Harry of trying to make things look 
good by letting Neville mess things up was ludicrous, biased 
and a disgrace.

But he isn't picking on Harry
 Hmm.

I would never have dreamed of treating a pupil in a class 
of mine in such a demeaning way. 

In my opinion, anyone who sees that exchange as being 
cheeky on Harry's part has no conception of the concerns 
and insecurities which go through a boy's mind in a new 
situation such as see here... I can recall being a new 
boy in grammar school at the same age as Harry was here, 
sitting in a class suffering the same sinking feeling in the 
stomach because of a teacher who had the same dismissive 
attitude to our feelings and lack of knowledge.






From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 16 03:37:08 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 03:37:08 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gna9tn+sej8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnan14+8a2m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185845

Geoff:
> In my opinion, anyone who sees that exchange as being 
> cheeky on Harry's part has no conception of the concerns 
> and insecurities which go through a boy's mind in a new 
> situation such as see here... I can recall being a new 
> boy in grammar school at the same age as Harry was here, 
> sitting in a class suffering the same sinking feeling in the 
> stomach because of a teacher who had the same dismissive 
> attitude to our feelings and lack of knowledge.

Magpie:
Yes, Harry's "cheek" is classic Snape shooting himself in the foot. 
He pushes at Harry, Harry says something-possibly just in panic 
because it's really what he was thinking (please, God, just call on 
Hermione!). People laugh because it's funny. Not because Harry's so 
witty but because Snape's hammering on Harry for some reason even 
with Hermione jumping out of her seat next to him.

As I said in another post, I can totally imagine a teacher asking 
questions on the first day to prove the class' ignorance--a jerk 
teacher, yes, but a teacher. But Snape is obviously concentrating on 
this one student, and he's stressing Harry's ignorance without even 
trying to make the point that the rest of the students are in the 
same boat. 

Snape set up a situation where Harry saying what he felt had a good 
chance of making people laugh and so making Harry sound pretty funny.

-m




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 04:25:21 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 04:25:21 -0000
Subject: Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <gn2un5+39h2@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnaprh+s8ab@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185846

<magnolia11875 at ...> wrote:
>
> Heya!
> 
> I'm trying to figure out all I can about the Dark Mark, the one
> branded onto the Death Eaters, not the mark sent into the air.  I'm
> trying to come up with some way to logically block or remove or
> something the Dark Mark, you see, but I need to know what we know 
for
> sure what we actually know.  All the help anyone can give would be
> completely awesome beyond all measure.  Hugs!
> 
> Tabs
>

Joey:

In DH Chapter 1, Snape and Yaxley raise their left arms (IIRC) and 
the iron gates of Malfoy Manor allow them to just get in *through* 
them. I thought it was the Dark Mark's working.

Cheers,
~Joey




From catlady at wicca.net  Mon Feb 16 05:20:51 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 05:20:51 -0000
Subject: Sorting / Baddock / Sbape, Snape, Snape, Snape
Message-ID: <gnat3j+t3vo@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185847

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185711>:

<< The only one who starts to doubt his family tradition is Sirius,
and, if it weren't for his meeting and befriending James, he would
probably have been Sorted into Slytherin just like Regulus (later) and
Andromeda (earlier) and all the rest of his family. He must have
wanted to be placed in Gryffindor, where he knew James would be placed. >>

I'm probably getting repetitious saying this, but I think Sirius at
age 11 was already into doing things just for the purpose of annoying
his parents, and had already realized that not being Sorted into
Slytherin would annoy them. 

He may well have already known that Gryffindor House is the
traditional rival of Slytherin House and therefore it would annoy his
parents more if he went into Gryffindor than if he went into Ravenclaw
or Hufflepuff (unconditional loyalty to his pack-mates may be his
strong suit, but can you imagine him in Hufflepuff, where students
follow rules?), and therefore already thought of going into Gryffindor
even before he met James.

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185714>:

<< a more likely etymology, with Baddock as a variant of Badcock, in
which "BAd" or "Bat" is a variant of Bart (short for Bartholomew) and
-cock, like -kin, in a diminutive >>

I can't remember if it was this list, but one time one listie from
England mentioned that he lived someplace named Baldock and had just
discovered that the name was originally 'Baghdad'. Leaving the
Thousand Nights and One Night out of it, I can easily imagine the
surname Baddock meaning a person from Baldock. 

[Wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldock> says "Baldock was
founded by the Knights Templar (also the name of the town's secondary
school) in the 1140s. Perhaps for this reason, one theory of the
origin of the name Baldock is as a derivation from the Old French name
for Baghdad: Baldac, which the Templars had hoped to conquer during
the crusades. Other theories include that the name is is derived from
"Bald Oak", meaning a dead oak."]

I imagine the name 'Baddock' could also be a variant of 'Paddock',
which would be more wizarding when it's a nickname for a toad than
when it's a corral.

But I still think Rowling wouldn't give a character a name whose first
syllable is 'Bad' unless she meant for us to notice it as a
three-letter word regardless of etymology.

Montavilla47 wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185721>:

<< I like the first image, too, when he's crying in the corner. (snip)
The most ambiguous responses I've heard from people to that one are 1)
that is isn't Snape's parents, but perhaps his mother and grandfather,
and 2) that the woman isn't afraid, but that they are simply fighting
on an equal level. >>

I don't recall hearing anyone suggest that the woman was fighting at
an equal level, but I do recall Kneasy insisting that the adult man
was Snape, the cowering people his wife and son, and this was his
happy memory of his beloved family killed by Voldemort, for which he
was seeking revenge.

<< But what are we to make of that second memory? It is just to show
us that Snape was horrible at riding brooms? Is that Lily laughing at
him? Or a random girl? >>

Something that Severus had in common with Harry, being victimized by
hexed brooms, altho' in Harry's case it was mortal danger and a girl
(Hermione) and Severus himself tried to save Harry, but in Sevvie's
case, no one tried to save him, and if he was in mortal danger, that
girl was rather a monster (as Carol mentioned in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185738>). Could
it have been Bellatrix?

I'm thinking the event occured at Hogwarts when Sevvie borrowed the
broom of a Slythie housemate to practise, but the lender secretly
hexed it as a 'joke'. Maybe the girl was the lender, sticking around
to laugh at her 'joke'. Maybe the lender was Lucius and someone else
(maybe the laughing girl) hexed it. If Lucius or whoever lent an
unhexed broomstick and James or Sirius hexed it because he was trying
to show off to Lily, why would Lily be laughing?

Montavilla47 wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185778>:

<< Now, maybe Snape should have tried using Lupin's trick. Instead
of continuing to tutor the unwilling Harry, he should have suggested
that it was too difficult, given Harry some chocolate, and told him to
give it up. >>

I realise that later on you said that you were just being sarcastic,
but I think it was seriously a good suggestion. As you and others have
mentioned, many good teachers would nonetheless be stymied by Harry's
desire to keep having visions from Voldemort and especially dreams
about that corridor. What would motivate him to want to learn
Occlumency when he was dead set against using Occlumency? His pride
(or call it self-respect or call it vanity).

Snape says to Harry, in a tone of voice resembling concern about him,
or at least pure objectivity, that Occlumency is too difficult a skill
for Harry to be able to learn, and that these lessons are not only
useless but are excessively painful for Harry.

 ... Harry becomes certain that Snape is someone else disguised as
Snape by Polyjuice and is determined to observe Snape for an hour and
try to keep him from drinking anything in that time, in order to find
out who is the disguised person: he hopes it is Dumbledore, secretly
too fond of Harry to avoid him completely despite mysteriously wanting
Harry to think so ... 

Excuse me, I didn't intend that digression. Harry, it not crossing his
mind that Snape is not Snape, takes this as challenge: "Snape thinks I
can't do it! Snape think I'm a weakling who suffers from these
lessons! I'll show him!" "No, Professor, please let me keep trying. I
really want to do whatever Professor Dumbledore says I should do."

Montavilla47 wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185797>:

<< I"m probably wrong about this, but my suspicion is that Snape
kept pushing the "expell Harry" idea because he thought Harry
would be safer at the Dursleys--and he didn't give a darn whether
or not Harry was *happy* there. He never promised to ensure
Harry's happiness--only his safety. >>

Really? I always thought that Snape was just saying 'expel him' to get
Harry's goat, as he knew that DD would never expel Harry for anything.

<< Of course, in OotP, it became evident that the protections placed
on the Dursley house could not protect Harry and he was better off at
Hogwarts. And, oddly, Snape never suggests once in OotP that Harry
ought to be expelled. >>

That's a good point.

Carol wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185813>:

<< We also have the evidence of all those other students who received
O's on their OWLs after learning from Snape -- one Gryffindor
(Hermione), one Hufflepuff (Ernie), and (IIRC), four students each
from Ravenclaw and Slytherin. Clearly, not all students were
uninspired by him. >>

Just as many Slytherins as studious Ravenclaws got a O in Potions. Hmmm. 

I think Snape teaches the Slytherins better than he teaches the other
students. 

He may well feel some sort of paternal or avuncular love for them, so
he criticizes their work with fewer insults and much less venom, and
is almost patient when yet again explaining the parts they didn't get. 

Or maybe he covered the interior walls of Slytherin House with
informative posters about Potionology.

Alla wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185816>:

<< One would think that if JKR wanted to make a point that Snape does
that to unlucky soul every year, she would have made a point of
mentioning it. She did not, so I choose to think that Snape does not
do it every year. >>

It has been suggested on list that he normally starts each class with
those three questions, but to three different students, so no one
feels singled out.





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Feb 16 07:42:07 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 07:42:07 -0000
Subject: Sorting / Baddock / Sbape, Snape, Snape, Snape
In-Reply-To: <gnat3j+t3vo@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnb5cf+8ltp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185848

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" <catlady at ...> 
wrote:

Alla:
 
> << One would think that if JKR wanted to make a point that Snape does
> that to unlucky soul every year, she would have made a point of
> mentioning it. She did not, so I choose to think that Snape does not
> do it every year. >>

Catlady: 
> It has been suggested on list that he normally starts each class with
> those three questions, but to three different students, so no one
> feels singled out.

Geoff:
The operative word there being "normally". So what happened 
in September 1991?
:-(






From leahstill at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 16 14:45:25 2009
From: leahstill at hotmail.com (littleleahstill)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 14:45:25 -0000
Subject: Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <gnaprh+s8ab@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnbu65+h5f8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185849

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "happyjoeysmiley" 
<happyjoeysmiley at ...> wrote:
>
> <magnolia11875@> wrote:
> >
> > Heya!
> > 
> > I'm trying to figure out all I can about the Dark Mark, the one
> > branded onto the Death Eaters, not the mark sent into the air.  
I'm
> > trying to come up with some way to logically block or remove or
> > something the Dark Mark, you see, but I need to know what we 
know 
> for
> > sure what we actually know.  All the help anyone can give would 
be
> > completely awesome beyond all measure.  Hugs!
> > 
> > Tabs
> >
> 
> Joey:
> 
> In DH Chapter 1, Snape and Yaxley raise their left arms (IIRC) and 
> the iron gates of Malfoy Manor allow them to just get in *through* 
> them. I thought it was the Dark Mark's working.


Leah: In HBP, 'The Lightening Struck Tower', the door to the 
Astronomy Tower appears to have been blocked to all but bearers of 
the Dark Mark, since Snape is able to pass through it and reach the 
top of the Tower, but other Order members who try to get through are 
thrown back.

There was a question on another posting thread about why it wasn't 
noticed that Sirius didn't have the Dark Mark, and the answer to 
that seems to be that the Mark disappeared after the vapourisation 
of Voldemort at Godric's Hollow, so it would not have been visible 
on anyone questioned as a potential Death Eater.   Karkaroff is 
getting frantic about the Mark becoming stronger during GOF and in 
HBP, 'Spinners End', when Snape is talking to Bellatrix about the 
Graveyard return, he  tells her, '...the Dark Mark had been growing 
stronger for months. I knew he was about to return - so did all the 
Death Eaters'.  

Leah




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 14:46:47 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 14:46:47 -0000
Subject: Sorting / Baddock / Sbape, Snape, Snape, Snape
In-Reply-To: <gnb5cf+8ltp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnbu8n+b7b6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185850

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince 
Winston)" <catlady@> 
> wrote:
> 
> Alla:
>  
> > << One would think that if JKR wanted to make a point that Snape 
does
> > that to unlucky soul every year, she would have made a point of
> > mentioning it. She did not, so I choose to think that Snape does 
not
> > do it every year. >>
> 
> Catlady: 
> > It has been suggested on list that he normally starts each class 
with
> > those three questions, but to three different students, so no one
> > feels singled out.
> 
> Geoff:
> The operative word there being "normally". So what happened 
> in September 1991?
> :-(

Zara:
We know he asks a question following his opening speech on first days 
of school. We have, after all, seen two such scenes. IN the second, 
he was given a correct answer. Perhaps he asked addditional questions 
in the first case, because he was not. 





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 16:23:19 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 16:23:19 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn55lj+qfhg@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnc3tn+e1a0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185851

jkoney
> <snip>
> It was Snape who matched Malfoy and Harry together instead of
letting Harry and Ron practice. <snip>

Carol responds:

Which was a good plan since Ron's wand was backfiring! And pairing
Harry with Draco gave Harry incentive to try harder than he would with
Ron.

I'm not sure about the Serpensortia spell, but it *may* have been
Snape's way of testing to see whether Harry was a Parselmouth. It
certainly served that purpose whether it was his intention or not. And
Snape easily Vanished the snake before it could do any harm.

In addition, had Snape not demonstrated Expelliarmus to the entire
Duelling Club, Harry might never have learned it. No DADA teacher,
including Lupin (who specialized in magical creatures) ever taught it,
nor does it seem like a spell that Harry would have needed for the TWT.

Like it or not, Harry owes his knowledge of Expelliarmus to Snape--and
Harry acknowledges as much in CoS.

"Shouldn't have let Professor Snape teach us that one," he says to
Lockhart after he's Disarmed him and Ron has caught the wand and flung
it out the window (CoS Am. ed. 298). Heck, he even calls Snape
"Professor"! 

Carol, who thinks that the duelling club is our first clue that Snape
is on Dumbledore's side for reasons that go far beyond repaying an old
debt to Harry's father




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 16:56:02 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 16:56:02 -0000
Subject: Sorting / Baddock / Sbape, Snape, Snape, Snape
In-Reply-To: <gnbu8n+b7b6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnc5r2+c2mn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185852

> Zara:
> We know he asks a question following his opening speech on first days 
> of school. We have, after all, seen two such scenes. IN the second, 
> he was given a correct answer. Perhaps he asked addditional questions 
> in the first case, because he was not.
>


Alla:

Come now, don't keep us in suspense :-). I would love to read another 
scene where he is asking questions **first** year students, who had no 
homework yet whatsoever and for some of them no knowledge of magic yet 
whatsoever.

Because if you meant this one:

"...you are, I believe, complete novices in the use of nonverbal 
spells. What is the advantage of nonverbal scene?"
Hermione's hand shot into the air. Snape took his time looking around 
at everybody else, making sure he had no choice, before saying 
curtly, "Very well - Miss Granger?"
"Your adversary has no warning about what kind of magic you're about to 
perform," said Hermione, "which gives you a split-second advantage."
"An answer copied almost word for word from The Standard Book of 
Spells, Grade Six," said Snape dismissively (over in the corner Malfoy 
sniggered), but correct in essentials..." - HBP, p178-179, paperback, 
am.ed.

I do not see how the two can be compared closely.

JMO,

Alla





From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 17:14:39 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:14:39 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnc3tn+e1a0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnc6tv+ag94@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185853

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> jkoney
> > <snip>
> > It was Snape who matched Malfoy and Harry together instead of
> letting Harry and Ron practice. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Which was a good plan since Ron's wand was backfiring! And pairing
> Harry with Draco gave Harry incentive to try harder than he would 
with
> Ron.

jkoney:
Snape obviously knew that Malfoy knew more than the average spells. 
It was just his way of trying to get Harry shown up in front of alot 
of people. Is it petty, yes, but that is how Snape acted especially 
early on in the series.


> Carol:
> I'm not sure about the Serpensortia spell, but it *may* have been
> Snape's way of testing to see whether Harry was a Parselmouth. It
> certainly served that purpose whether it was his intention or not. 
And
> Snape easily Vanished the snake before it could do any harm.

jkoney:
I think you are missing the point entirely. Malfoy and Harry should 
have never been chosen to demonstrate. Why would you choose two 
wizards with almost no experience for a demonstration when you have 
the upper years also there.

No this was just Snape trying to embarrass Harry. His whispers with 
Draco telling him what advanced spell to use definitely let us know 
that.

Why would Snape have thought Harry was a parseltounge? There was no 
reason for suspecting it. So no we can definitely rule out the 
testing Harry theory.

> Carol
> In addition, had Snape not demonstrated Expelliarmus to the entire
> Duelling Club, Harry might never have learned it. No DADA teacher,
> including Lupin (who specialized in magical creatures) ever taught 
it,
> nor does it seem like a spell that Harry would have needed for the 
TWT.
> 

jkoney:
Actually, Harry's year was studying magical creatures. Other years 
were learning whatever was required for their level. We just see 
Lupin teaching creatures because that is what Harry is learning.

Carol:
> Like it or not, Harry owes his knowledge of Expelliarmus to Snape--
and
> Harry acknowledges as much in CoS.
> 
jkoney:
Harry did see Snape demonstrate Expelliarmus. Who knows if it was 
taught in class. We didn't get to see it, because Harry had already 
figured it out. And Harry was just getting a dig in at the useless 
Lockhart who was running away until he was stopped by two eleven year 
olds.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 17:21:50 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:21:50 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn77p7+8l6a@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnc7be+70fq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185854

Magpie wrote:
> I think he may have hated him as an abstraction already. But when he
showed up looking like James he reacted with hatred, however he'd felt
before that, and that kept on going. I think it's quite possible he
would have reacted differently if Harry had looked more like Lily. <snip>

Carol responds:

Or if Harry had shown Lily's interest in and aptitude for Potions?
He'd have had no reason to cheek Snape by suggesting that he call on
Hermione  if he knew the answers himself, so he wouldn't have lost
that point or demonstrated what Snape considered arrogance (especially
on top of the ignorance he had previously demonstrated). He might have
seen a bit of Lily rather than just James in Harry, and the hatred, if
that's what it was (and I don't agree that intense dislike and initial
prejudice against someone qualifies as hatred) had that been the case.

Carol, noting that Snape was thirty-one, not thirty-six, at the time
of this incident (not that it matters)





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 17:36:26 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:36:26 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnc7be+70fq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnc86q+41kv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185855

> jkoney:
<SNIP>
> Harry did see Snape demonstrate Expelliarmus. Who knows if it was 
> taught in class. We didn't get to see it, because Harry had already 
> figured it out. And Harry was just getting a dig in at the useless 
> Lockhart who was running away until he was stopped by two eleven 
year 
> olds.
>


Alla:

Oh, but why not. If nobody taught it in class, sure Harry learned it 
from Snape. You are right of course, though - we do not know if it 
was learned in class or not AND of course I will not give Snape 
credit for **deliberately** teaching Harry Expeliarmus LOL. He showed 
it to the whole class, well good for Harry that he figured it out. 


I mean, to run with your earlier example, I am sure there are gifted 
kids who can pick up karate moves from looking at Bruce Lee, somehow 
I think teaching those kids would not have been on his mind.


Carol, noting that Snape was thirty-one, not thirty-six, at the time
of this incident (not that it matters)
<SNIP of the whole post>

Alla:

Yes,  his behavior sounds equally bad to me  even if he was 31.





From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 16 17:39:32 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:39:32 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnc7be+70fq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnc8ck+k4pc@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185856

> Magpie wrote:
> > I think he may have hated him as an abstraction already. But when 
he
> showed up looking like James he reacted with hatred, however he'd 
felt
> before that, and that kept on going. I think it's quite possible he
> would have reacted differently if Harry had looked more like Lily. 
<snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Or if Harry had shown Lily's interest in and aptitude for Potions?
> He'd have had no reason to cheek Snape by suggesting that he call on
> Hermione  if he knew the answers himself, so he wouldn't have lost
> that point or demonstrated what Snape considered arrogance 
(especially
> on top of the ignorance he had previously demonstrated). 

Magpie:
I wouldn't be so sure that even Lily would know random Potions facts 
the first day of class, especially having grown up a Muggle. Harry 
could have had a big aptitude for Potions and still had the same 
experience on the first day since this is the first experience he's 
having with Potions. Though I would suspect that if Harry had had all 
the answers Snape might have just labelled him a know-it-all and 
thought him more arrogant than ever. Snape's dislike of Harry seems 
to have much more to do with things that have already happened, and 
I'm not sure what all Harry would have had to do to counter it. I 
think Harry's impression that he was kind of doomed the minute he 
walked in was correct.

-m




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 18:22:03 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 18:22:03 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn7e34+kfdj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gncasb+e0ml@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185857

Alla:
> > 
> > Heh, of course not. I was saying that his fall was embarrassing
for > Flitiwick, not for Harry IMO.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> I would think it would be embarrassing for Harry as well--at least a
little and here's why:  The next year, Lockhart makes a bigger fool of
himself and Harry finds that highly embarrassing.  He also finds Colin
Creevey embarrassing.  You could argue that both of those people are
only embarrassing themselves--but it's evident that Harry *hates* the
attention that both of them bring to him.  
> 
> He even gets embarrassed by Ginny's attentions--and again, Ginny is
really only embarrassing herself.

Carol responds:

I agree with you, though I suppose having a dwarf dressed up like
Cupid and singing, "his eyes are as green as a pickled toad," made
Ginny's adoration the most intolerable of all.

Unfortunately, we're not given Harry's reaction to Flitwick's excited
squeak and toppling off his chair. Suppose that Harry had liked it and
felt flattered and wanted more of the same (as I suspect James would
have in the same situation)? That, I think, would have been worse for
him by far than Snape's publicly exposing his ignorance (which is,
after all, no worse than most other first-years'). We see no harm to
Harry himself from that initial encounter, only to whatever mutually
productive and respectful relationship he might have had with
Snape--not that I think such a relationship was possible with a man he
thought had caused the pain in his scar (unless, possibly, he'd gotten
the questions right).

But I meant to post about Flitwick, not Snape. Imagine a real-life
teacher of a child celebrity at a public school figuratively falling
off his or her chair after seeing the child's name on the roll. Harry
was no more responsible for his own celebrity--had done no more to
earn it--than the Obama girls are for theirs. (I can see why Obama put
his girls in a private school with other children of politicians and
diplomats and not in a U.S. public school in which teachers might fawn
on them and other kids follow them around.) Snape's action, regardless
of its motivation, spares Harry some of the consequences of that type
of celebrity status by making it clear that he's no more of a prodigy
(or budding Dark Lord) than anyone else in the room. (Harry might have
reacted differently to Lockhart the next year if his celebrity balloon
hadn't been somewhat pricked by everyone's knowledge of his mediocrity
at everything except Quidditch. McGonagall, IMO, doesn't help matters
by making him the Gryffindor Seeker and, apparently, buying him a
broom as well, but I do give her credit for keeping quiet about him in
Transfiguration--although, of course, she doesn't yet know how well or
poorly he'll perform.) But, luckily, Harry displays his own mediocrity
in Flitwick's class, where he's quickly shown up by the previously
unknown Muggle-born, Hermione Granger.

Carol, who thinks that celebrity status in combination with doting
adults is a dangerous thing (good thing harry didn't have Slughorn and
the HBP's book in first year!)







From magnolia11875 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 16:55:08 2009
From: magnolia11875 at yahoo.com (magnolia11875)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 16:55:08 -0000
Subject: Dark Mark
In-Reply-To: <gn8a8e+f134@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnc5pc+el26@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185858

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zanooda2" <zanooda2 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom@> wrote:
> 
> > DH chpts 29/30 the Carrows summon LV by pressing the Dark Mark. 
> > In 30 Snape comments that the Carrows had captured an intruder. 
> > That makes me think that when LV was summoned, Snape was aware 
> > as well.
> 
> 
> Also, after Alecto Carrow summoned LV by touching her Mark, Amicus
> said to McGonagall: "She's gorn and sent for him (LV), I felt me Mark
> burn, and he thinks we've got Potter!"(p.592). It means that when one
> DE touches his\her Mark, all of them can feel it, as both Snape and
> Amicus prove. Interesting that LV seems to be able to receive their
> "messages" without having the Dark Mark himself. How does he do it?
> 
> 
> zanooda, completely in the dark about the Dark Mark ... :-).
>



My not at all supported by anything canon theory about why Voldemort
can receive the messages from the Marks without having one himself is
that the Marks are still a part of his magic, binding the master
magically to his servants.  It makes sense to me that the reason the
Mark faded to almost disappearing after he lost his body and then
began to slowly darken as he grew stronger is because his magic was no
longer there, fueling the power of the mark.  Hence, when someone uses
the Mark to send a message, they're in effect sending the message with
part of Voldemort's own magic and he feels it.  And since all of the
DE's are connected by a thread of Voldemort's magic, they feel it as well.

But that's just my humble not supported by canon theory.

Tabs




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 20:12:48 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 20:12:48 -0000
Subject: Sorting / Baddock / Sbape, Snape, Snape, Snape
In-Reply-To: <gnc5r2+c2mn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnchc0+1s2q@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185859

> Alla:
> 
> Come now, don't keep us in suspense :-). I would love to read another 
> scene where he is asking questions **first** year students, who had 
no 
> homework yet whatsoever and for some of them no knowledge of magic 
yet 
> whatsoever.
>

Zara:
I'd likewise love to read the scene where Snape assigned homework to 
the sixth yearsd over the summer. <g> Hermione had read a sixth year 
text and picked up a bit of sixth year DADA curriculum, presumably 
because she planned to impress Slughorn with her knowledge in DADA. 
Certainly not because the actual DADA professor, Snape, assigned it to 
her.






From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 20:15:57 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 20:15:57 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnc6tv+ag94@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnchht+l80v@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185860

jkoney:
> Snape obviously knew that Malfoy knew more than the average spells.
It was just his way of trying to get Harry shown up in front of alot 
of people. Is it petty, yes, but that is how Snape acted especially
early on in the series.
> 
Carol earlier:
> > I'm not sure about the Serpensortia spell, but it *may* have been
Snape's way of testing to see whether Harry was a Parselmouth. It
certainly served that purpose whether it was his intention or not. 
And Snape easily Vanished the snake before it could do any harm.
> 
> jkoney:
> I think you are missing the point entirely. Malfoy and Harry should
have never been chosen to demonstrate. Why would you choose two
wizards with almost no experience for a demonstration when you have
the upper years also there.
> 
> No this was just Snape trying to embarrass Harry. His whispers with
Draco telling him what advanced spell to use definitely let us know
that. <snip>

Carol responds:

First, you're trying to have it both ways. You say that "Snape
obviously knew that Malfoy knew more than the average spells" and then
you say that "Malfoy and Harry should have never been chosen to
demonstrate. Why would you choose two wizards with almost no
experience." those two statements are not consistent. Either Draco,
unlike Harry, knows "more than average spells" (in which case, it's
odd that he's attending the Dueling Club to learn how to duel) or,
like Harry, he's "a wizard with almost no experience." I think *all*
the kids who attend have almost no experience, certainly none with
real dueling. 

Moreover, I'm not missing the point that those two should never have
been chosen to demonstrate because they're inexperienced. So is every
other student present. There's no indication that anyone except
second-years attends the Dueling Club meetings (probably because the
older kids already hex each other in the hallways if the behavior of
Harry and his friends is any indication). *There are no older kids to
choose.* With the possible exception of Miss Fawcett, every student
named--Harry, Ron, Seamus, Neville, Lavender, Ernie Macmillan, Justin
Finch-Fletchley, Draco, Hermione, Millicent Bulstrode--is a second-year.

Draco is a second-year just like Harry, and his spell-casting is no
better and no worse than Harry's.(In their hallway battles and even in
the fight in HBP, they're always at the same level.) If Serpensortia
were an advanced spell, twelve-year-old Draco could not have cast it.
As you said yourself, he's an inexperienced wizard just like Harry.

After Snape casts Expelliarmus against Lockhart, Lockhart and Snape
pair up the students, who are supposed to use Expelliarmus on each
other, but instead they cast a variety of hexes that second-years are
capable of casting. Draco casts an unnamed hex that makes Harry feel
as if he's been hit in the head by a pan; the effects are short-lived,
and Harry casts Rictusempra (the tickling spell) and Draco counters
with Tarantellegra, making him involuntarily dance. Once Snape has
stopped all the hexes with his "Finite Incantatem!" (Lockhart's "Stop!
Stop!" having proved ineffectual), Lockhart decides to teach the
students to block unfriendly spells. 

He initially chooses another pair of inexperienced second-years,
Seamus and Neville. Obviously, "upper years" aren't needed for the
experiment, and, in any case, none are available. Snape wisely if
unkindly points out that Neville is not a good choice and chooses
Harry and Draco instead. Draco is *supposed* to cast an "unfriendly
spell" which Harry is *supposed* to block. Snape, coaching Draco,
suggests Serpensortia--whether because it's a nice, Slytherinish
"unfriendly spell" that second-year Draco probably already knows or is
at least capable of casting or for the reasons I suggested earlier, I
don't know, but unless he casts an unfriendly spell, there's nothing
for Harry to block. Lockhart is *supposed* to tell Harry how to block
the spell (presumably using Protego). Instead, he makes a "complicated
sort of wiggle" with his wand and drops it. 

Needless to say, Draco is prepared and Harry is not and he can only
stare when a snake comes out of Draco's wand. Snape tells Harry to
hold still so he can Vanish the snake (which he does easily after
Lockhart bungles the same spell and sends the snake hissing toward
Justin Finch-Fletchley), so the scene also serves to show the reader
(if not Harry) that Snape has considerably more knowledge of DADA than
the "tiny little bit" that Lockhart attirbutes to him. At the same
time, of course, Lockhart's ineptitude is publicly exposed (but he's
too much of a fool to see it).

On rereading the scene, I think you're right that Snape wasn't
expecting Harry to be a Parselmouth. He seems almost horrified by the
discovery. I think he suggested it only as a spell that he could
easily counter himself if Harry failed to cast a Protego. He seems
completely unconcerned until Lockhart's botched spell enrages the
snake and Harry starts talking to it, after which Snape Vanishes it
easily. His "shrewd and calculating look" suggests that he's just
figured something out. It might be that he starts suspecting that
Harry is the Heir of Slytherin at that point. Certainly, he informs
Dumbledore of what has happened.

Anyway, the point of pairing Harry and Draco was not to humiliate
Harry, mcuh less to hurt him. It was, IMO, to give him the most
skilled and motivated opponent among the second-years to practice
with. It's much like Harry practicing Occlumency against Snape
himself--the next best thing to Voldemort, only not dangerous.

IMO, if we disregard Lockhart's inept contributions, we're seeing DADA
as Snape would have taught it. He might even have become Harry's
favorite teacher if he'd kept it up. Alas, the DADA curse and the
whole Snape/Harry plot makes that impossible.

Carol, who thinks that the Dueling Club would have been much less
productive and possibly disastrous had Snape not been present




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Feb 16 21:08:40 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 21:08:40 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gncasb+e0ml@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnckko+td8t@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185861

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

Alla:

> > > Heh, of course not. I was saying that his fall was embarrassing
> for > Flitiwick, not for Harry IMO.

Montavilla47:
> > I would think it would be embarrassing for Harry as well--at least a
> little and here's why:  The next year, Lockhart makes a bigger fool of
> himself and Harry finds that highly embarrassing.  He also finds Colin
> Creevey embarrassing.  You could argue that both of those people are
> only embarrassing themselves--but it's evident that Harry *hates* the
> attention that both of them bring to him.  
> > 
> > He even gets embarrassed by Ginny's attentions--and again, Ginny is
> really only embarrassing herself.

Carol:
> I agree with you, though I suppose having a dwarf dressed up like
> Cupid and singing, "his eyes are as green as a pickled toad," made
> Ginny's adoration the most intolerable of all.
> 
> Unfortunately, we're not given Harry's reaction to Flitwick's excited
> squeak and toppling off his chair. Suppose that Harry had liked it and
> felt flattered and wanted more of the same (as I suspect James would
> have in the same situation)? 

Geoff:
But he didn't. You can speculate on "what ifs" until the cows come home. 
Harry didn't like it and he is not like James in that way.

Carol:
> That, I think, would have been worse for
> him by far than Snape's publicly exposing his ignorance (which is,
> after all, no worse than most other first-years'). 

Geoff:
The main facts are that Harry was an eleven year old boy who 
had been downtrodden by his relatives for years and was suddenly 
pitchforked into the wizarding world - a world which to him was 
completely strange and in which he felt very uncertain.

At this point in time he was still trying to come to terms with being 
a wizard. In no way was he revelling in his fame.

Only a few weeks before, he had felt totally unfitted:

'Hagrid looked at Harry with warmth and respect blazing in his 
eyes but Harry, instead of feeling pleased and proud, felt quite 
sure there had been a horrible mistake. A wizard? Him? How could 
he possibly be?...

...If he'd once defeated the greatest sorcerer in the world, how come 
Dudley had always been able to kick him around like a football?

"Hagrid," he said quietly, "I think you must have made a mistake. I 
don't think I can be a wizard."'
(PS "The Keeper of the Keys" p.47 UK edition)

Even when he arrived at Hogwarts, he still felt inferior:

'"There, look."
"Where?"
"Next to the tall kid with the red hair."
"Wearing the glasses?"
"Did you see his face?"
"Did you see ois scar?"
Whispers followed Harry from the moment he left his dormitory 
next day.  People queueing outside classrooms stood on tiptoe
to get a look at him or doubled back to pass him in the corridors 
again, staring. Harry wishes they wouldn't because he was trying 
to concentrate on finding his way to classes."
(PS "The Potions Master" p. 98 UK edition)

'And then, once you had managed to find them, there were the 
lessons themselves. There was a lot more to magic, as Harry quickly 
found out,than waving your wand and saying a few funny words.'
(ibid. p.99)

Doesn't sound like someone full of confidence or brash enough to 
be cheeky, does it?

We know from later events that Harry hates the limelight. Colin Creevy 
drives him round the bend with his persistent stalking; he is very 
unhappy when his name comes out of the Goblet of Fire and he 
is very quick to let Scrimgeour that he, in no way wished to be the 
Ministry poster boy.

What Harry wishes is not to be wanted or courted as the Boy-Who-
Lived but to be accepted as just plain Harry and it is this which he 
largely gets from Ron and Hermione and from most of the others in 
his dormitory.

Snape did not need to take him down a peg or  two. If he had had the 
sense to actually observe Harry for a lesson or two, a great deal of 
future confrontations, problems and misunderstandings would have 
been avoided.

There is an old English saying:
"Some are born great. Some achieve greatness. Some have greatness 
thrust upon them"

Guess to which category I think Harry belongs.









From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 21:58:40 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 21:58:40 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnckko+td8t@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gncnig+hk43@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185862

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" <gbannister10 at ...> wrote:
>
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> 
> Alla:
> 
> > > > Heh, of course not. I was saying that his fall was embarrassing
> > for > Flitiwick, not for Harry IMO.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> > > I would think it would be embarrassing for Harry as well--at least a
> > little and here's why:  The next year, Lockhart makes a bigger fool of
> > himself and Harry finds that highly embarrassing.  He also finds Colin
> > Creevey embarrassing.  You could argue that both of those people are
> > only embarrassing themselves--but it's evident that Harry *hates* the
> > attention that both of them bring to him.  
> > > 
> > > He even gets embarrassed by Ginny's attentions--and again, Ginny is
> > really only embarrassing herself.
> 
> Carol:
> > I agree with you, though I suppose having a dwarf dressed up like
> > Cupid and singing, "his eyes are as green as a pickled toad," made
> > Ginny's adoration the most intolerable of all.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, we're not given Harry's reaction to Flitwick's excited
> > squeak and toppling off his chair. Suppose that Harry had liked it and
> > felt flattered and wanted more of the same (as I suspect James would
> > have in the same situation)? 
> 
> Geoff:
> But he didn't. You can speculate on "what ifs" until the cows come home. 
> Harry didn't like it and he is not like James in that way.
> 
> Carol:
> > That, I think, would have been worse for
> > him by far than Snape's publicly exposing his ignorance (which is,
> > after all, no worse than most other first-years'). 
> 
> Geoff:
> The main facts are that Harry was an eleven year old boy who 
> had been downtrodden by his relatives for years and was suddenly 
> pitchforked into the wizarding world - a world which to him was 
> completely strange and in which he felt very uncertain.
> 
> At this point in time he was still trying to come to terms with being 
> a wizard. In no way was he revelling in his fame.
> 
><snip> 
> 
> We know from later events that Harry hates the limelight. Colin Creevy 
> drives him round the bend with his persistent stalking; he is very 
> unhappy when his name comes out of the Goblet of Fire and he 
> is very quick to let Scrimgeour that he, in no way wished to be the 
> Ministry poster boy.
> 
> What Harry wishes is not to be wanted or courted as the Boy-Who-
> Lived but to be accepted as just plain Harry and it is this which he 
> largely gets from Ron and Hermione and from most of the others in 
> his dormitory.

Montavilla47:
Glad to see that we are in agreement here.  

Geoff:
> Snape did not need to take him down a peg or  two. If he had had the 
> sense to actually observe Harry for a lesson or two, a great deal of 
> future confrontations, problems and misunderstandings would have 
> been avoided.

Montavilla47:
You are quite right that Harry didn't need to have his confidence 
deflated.  He didn't have any at this point.  My point--lo these many
days ago--regarding the "puncturing" of Harry is that Snape might
have been motivated *in part* by the way that *other students*
were looking at Harry.  That the celebrity around Harry might have
become a problem for everyone--or at least, things would be 
better all around if Harry were perceived as just another student.

And maybe I'm just being delusional so that there is some purpose
in this moment beyond Snape's issues shooting himself in the foot.
I like to think that Snape is a bit more on the ball than that.  Because
if not, then Snape is either a buffoon (like the principal in Ferris 
Bueller's Day Off), or the living embodiment of that flayed baby under
the bench, so twisted and stymied by pain that he's incapable of 
anything...  or he's an above-average teacher who will educate his
students no matter how much pain it causes them.

Geoff:
> There is an old English saying:
> "Some are born great. Some achieve greatness. Some have greatness 
> thrust upon them"
> 
> Guess to which category I think Harry belongs.

Montavilla47:
Guess how much it matters which one he belongs to.  Not one bit.  Either 
way, it's a big disruption to the school. something that Dumbledore 
specifically tried to avoid, and, the I figure it, Snape senses that the 
sooner it's dealt with, the better.






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Feb 16 22:08:48 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:08:48 -0000
Subject: Snape, Snape, Snape, Snape
In-Reply-To: <gnc5r2+c2mn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnco5g+crpb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185863

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> 
wrote:

Zara:
> > We know he asks a question following his opening speech on first days 
> > of school. We have, after all, seen two such scenes. IN the second, 
> > he was given a correct answer. Perhaps he asked addditional questions 
> > in the first case, because he was not.
 
Alla:
> Come now, don't keep us in suspense :-). I would love to read another 
> scene where he is asking questions **first** year students, who had no 
> homework yet whatsoever and for some of them no knowledge of magic yet 
> whatsoever.
 
> Because if you meant this one:

> "...you are, I believe, complete novices in the use of nonverbal 
> spells. What is the advantage of nonverbal scene?"
> Hermione's hand shot into the air. Snape took his time looking around 
> at everybody else, making sure he had no choice, before saying 
> curtly, "Very well - Miss Granger?"
> "Your adversary has no warning about what kind of magic you're about to 
> perform," said Hermione, "which gives you a split-second advantage."
> "An answer copied almost word for word from The Standard Book of 
> Spells, Grade Six," said Snape dismissively (over in the corner Malfoy 
> sniggered), but correct in essentials..." - HBP, p178-179, paperback, 
> am.ed.
> 
> I do not see how the two can be compared closely.

Geoff:
Like Alla, I was also intrigued by your suggestion that there are two 
scenes where Snape asks questions of pupils and, in your own words, 
one where he gets a correct answer.

Now, I think that I am considered by the group to be something of a 
canon buff, but I could not pin down another scene like the one in PS 
which we have discussed.

If Alla is right and the scene you mean is the one she highlights from 
HBP, then I cannot agree with your assumptions about Snape and the first 
year. I had initially assumed that you meant another interaction between 
the two of them.

I agree with Alla that you cannot compare the two situations as they do 
not involve first years and therefore, I do not think that you can support 
your view of Snape's dealings with first years from canon. The two events 
are years apart.

In message 185850, Catlady wrote:
"It has been suggested on list that he normally starts each class with
those three questions, but to three different students, so no one feels 
singled out."

That isn't canon and I see no evidence from that source to support the 
suggestion that Snape is **not** deliberately picking on Harry.

In your post 185859, where Alla has asked you to specify the event to 
which you are referring, you seem to have craftily dodged the issue and 
produced a red herring instead.

A little further enlightenment would be gratefully received.
:-)






From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Feb 16 22:15:31 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:15:31 -0000
Subject: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gncnig+hk43@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gncoi3+s4n5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185864

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "montavilla47" <montavilla47 at ...> wrote:

Geoff:
> > There is an old English saying:
> > "Some are born great. Some achieve greatness. Some have greatness 
> > thrust upon them"
> > 
> > Guess to which category I think Harry belongs.

> Montavilla47:
> Guess how much it matters which one he belongs to.  Not one bit.  Either 
> way, it's a big disruption to the school. something that Dumbledore 
> specifically tried to avoid, and, the I figure it, Snape senses that the 
> sooner it's dealt with, the better.

Geoff:
It matters to Harry. It matters very seriously to Harry.

The fact that it is a disruption to the school is a **different** matter and 
I'm not sure Snape should be interfering without Dumbledore's say so.

He is letting his hatred of James colour his interaction with Harry as 
he continues to do so throughout the books.






From lizzyben04 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 22:43:03 2009
From: lizzyben04 at yahoo.com (lizzyben04)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:43:03 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gn5f4j+icd1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gncq5n+d51b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185865

 
> Potioncat:
> And it was a lie. I just realized that it was a complete lie. Of 
> course, DD couldn't tell Harry that Snape was protecting him to 
honor 
> Lily....but why did DD make up that crock about Snape owing James? 
> That's the worst thing he could have told Harry!


lizzyben:

Which brings up a different point - do magical "life debts" actually 
exist at all? If you think of it, the only one who ever mentions the 
concept is Dumbledore, master of secrets & lies. The first time he's 
lying to cover up Snape's real reason for protecting Harry, & the 
second time he might well have been lying to make Harry feel better 
about letting Pettigrew go. (Which in retrospect, Harry should not 
have done. Mercy rarely pays off in this series!) I could see the 
whole "life debt" idea as appealing to DD's twisted viewpoint, which 
seems to see lives as something to be bartered, or pledged in payment 
for a debt owed to him. 







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 23:04:16 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:04:16 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gncnig+hk43@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gncrdg+go1b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185866

Montavilla47:
> Guess how much it matters which one he belongs to.  Not one bit. 
Either way, it's a big disruption to the school. something that
Dumbledore specifically tried to avoid, and, the I figure it, Snape
senses that the sooner it's dealt with, the better.

Carol responds:
I agree. Regardless of Snape's motivation (which may have been to
prevent him from becoming an arrogant berk but we don't know) or the
effects of fame on Harry's ego (which could have been disastrous but
weren't because he isn't James), the overall effect of Harry's
deflated celebrity status is all to the good, IMO. The last thing
Harry needs is teachers falling off chairs in adoration (thnk goodness
he quickly showed Flitwick that he was no Charms Prince) and other
students following him around begging for autographs (as they did krum
in GoF). One Colin Creevey is sufficient for a lifetime, and
fortunately for Harry, he encounters that one in CoS, after the
initial effects of his (unearned) celebrity have worn off and the
students in his year, at least, have learned that, except at
Quidditch, he's no better at magic than they are. If he were as
naturally gifted (and studious) as Hermione (but not "an insufferable
know-it-all"), Snape would probably have dealt with him differently,
probably turning to a different student for answers to the second and
third questions and certainly not accusing Harry of not opening his
books. (As it is, he can't tell Herbology from Potions, evidently. He
wouldn't have found anything on Bezoars in "1001 Magical Herbs and
Fungi." And, until they suspect him of being the Heir of Slytherin in
CoS, the other students aren't expecting anything more exciting from
him than some good flying and spectacular catches. And the teachers
don't have unrealistic standards of performance from him, either.)

And, BTW, Geoff, I agree with you that Harry doesn't like fame and
wants to be just Harry, but he has to deal with its vicissitudes,
nonetheless, throughout the series. It helps that at least some of the
students (those in his year and some of those in his House) know that,
despite his scar and his history, he's just like them in many ways.
Imagine if the Weasleys (other than Ginny) treated him as a celebrity
instead of part of the family of if he'd been raised as a "pampered
prince" instead of by the Dursleys. Dumbeledore was right to keep him
away from fame until he could deal with it.

Geoff:
> It matters to Harry. It matters very seriously to Harry.

> The fact that it is a disruption to the school is a **different**
matter and I'm not sure Snape should be interfering without
Dumbledore's say so.

> He is letting his hatred of James colour his interaction with Harry
as he continues to do so throughout the books.

Carol responds:
I can't see that Snape's "our new celebrity" lesson has any serious
ill effects on Harry (other than, as we keep repeating, to make a good
teacher/student relationship impossible and to cause Harry to suspect
Snape of evils of which he's not guilty.

But as for Snape interfering without Dumbledor's say so, Dumbledore
gives Snape a free hand, only suggesting at one point that Snape is
seeing what he expects to see (which is also true for Harry's view of
Snape). But as Alla pointed out, Dumbledore's explanation that Snape
saved Harry from Quirrell so that he could go back to hating James in
peace makes matters worse, not better. Harry thinks (as does Lupin)
that Snape's behavior toward Sirius Black stems from SWM and the
so-called Prank when in fact (as we learn in DH) his behavior stems
from his love for Lily (whom he thinks that Black betrayed to her
death). Dumbledore plays the same card in OoP when he explains Snape's
cancellation of the Occlumency lessons on Snape's inability to stop
hating James (not a word about Harry not minding his own business or
the lessons not working anyway because Harry wanted to have that
dream). Before anyone protests, I understand perfectly that blaming
Harry--or pointing out his share of the blame--would have been the
wrong strategy for dealing with a very angry and recently bereaved
boy, but Harry was looking for a scapegoat and Snape made a convenient
one. To bring up Snape's hatred of James as if it were the only reason
for abandoning the lessons (which Snape would have had to resume if
Dumbledore ordered him to do so) just rubbed salt into the wound.

I think that Dumbledore is using Snape's hatred of James for his own
purposes, one of which is to conceal Snape's real motive for helping
and protecting Harry. All the better for the DEs and Voldemort (when
he returns) to think--or know, if you prefer--that Snape hates Harry.
it's a lot easier for Snape to hide his protecting (and teaching) of
Harry that way.

The bezoar lesson took--eventually. The Expelliarmus lesson took
immediately. And even if the Occlumency lessons didn't take, at least
Harry learned what Occlumency and Legilimency are, which prepared him
to understand what was happening when Voldemort entered Grindelwald's
head.

Carol, who thinks that Harry's perspective in SS/PS is incomplete and
prevents us from seeing Snape (and Dumbledore) whole






From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 23:07:39 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:07:39 -0000
Subject: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <gncoi3+s4n5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gncrjr+3qnl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185867

> Geoff:
> > > There is an old English saying:
> > > "Some are born great. Some achieve greatness. Some have greatness 
> > > thrust upon them"
> > > 
> > > Guess to which category I think Harry belongs.
> 
> > Montavilla47:
> > Guess how much it matters which one he belongs to.  Not one bit.  Either 
> > way, it's a big disruption to the school. something that Dumbledore 
> > specifically tried to avoid, and, the I figure it, Snape senses that the 
> > sooner it's dealt with, the better.
> 
> Geoff:
> It matters to Harry. It matters very seriously to Harry.
> 
> The fact that it is a disruption to the school is a **different** matter and 
> I'm not sure Snape should be interfering without Dumbledore's say so.
> 
> He is letting his hatred of James colour his interaction with Harry as 
> he continues to do so throughout the books.

Montavilla47:
I agree that it colors Snape's actions.  My point is that it doesn't
*dominate* his actions.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Feb 16 23:18:11 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:18:11 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gna9tn+sej8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gncs7j+2992@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185868

List Elves, take action at once! Don't you see what's happened?

List members, remember, "Constant Vigilance!" Don't you see it either?

>From the post with the header:
--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
<gbannister10 at ...> wrote:

> 
> I taught for over thirty years dealing mainly with teenagers 
> and I know that cheek comes from those pupils who are 
> confident, have a big idea of themselves and are prepared 
> try it on with authority figures. Do any of these characteristics 
> fit Harry? 
> 
> Let's have a look at canon:

Potioncat:
Sounds like Geoff. Ever the voice of reason. Nice balance of personal 
experience and canon. Hard to dispute his points, so well made.

But think people! Geoff never---ever---gets involved with Snape 
threads. He's stated several times that he doesn't even *read* Snape 
threads. Yet as I write this post, there are at least Geoff Bannister 
posts on this thread.

Who is this imposter?!

(Besides, if it really were Geoff, I might have to admit that what 
all of us are really doing is trying to explain the motivation for 
Snape being such a Berk--and no, there isn't any real excuse for 
treating an 11-year-old like this.)





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 23:27:22 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:27:22 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gncs7j+2992@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gncsoq+e3vu@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185869

> Alla:
> > 
> > Come now, don't keep us in suspense :-). I would love to read 
another 
> > scene where he is asking questions **first** year students, who 
had 
> no 
> > homework yet whatsoever and for some of them no knowledge of 
magic 
> yet 
> > whatsoever.
> >
> 
> Zara:
> I'd likewise love to read the scene where Snape assigned homework 
to 
> the sixth yearsd over the summer. <g> Hermione had read a sixth 
year 
> text and picked up a bit of sixth year DADA curriculum, presumably 
> because she planned to impress Slughorn with her knowledge in DADA. 
> Certainly not because the actual DADA professor, Snape, assigned it 
to 
> her.
>


Alla:

So that *is* the scene you meant. Okay then no I do not see them as 
the same at all. Because I think it is much more reasonable to expect 
sixth years who had DADA for several years to pick up some extra 
knowledge, at least theoretical of the magic they never done 
(presumably), but definitely saw in the WW.

Not that I would expect everybody to look non verbal spells of 
course, but as I said just seems more reasonable to me that somebody 
will see teachers doing one or another nonverbal spell and may just 
be curious to figure out what it is they are dealing with. Heck 
Dumbledore presumably does non verbal magic during the end of the 
first year feast. I would not be surprised if somebody besides 
Hermione got curious.

NOT the first years muggleborns who just only learned that magic 
exists and had to deal with Snape's questioning.

And of course there is another difference to me in this scene - 
Snape does ask a student who wants to answer. But that is a secondary 
difference to me, the main one is that they are sixth years now who 
had DADA for many years and just may pick a bit of extra knowledge.

Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
Because
if not, then Snape is either a buffoon (like the principal in Ferris
Bueller's Day Off), or the living embodiment of that flayed baby under
the bench, so twisted and stymied by pain that he's incapable of
anything... <SNIP>

Alla:

If the shoe fits


Potioncat:
<SNIP>
(Besides, if it really were Geoff, I might have to admit that what
all of us are really doing is trying to explain the motivation for
Snape being such a Berk--and no, there isn't any real excuse for
treating an 11-year-old like this.)

Alla:

LOLOLOLOL. Dying laughing here.  Seriously, that is why I love you 
dear. 





From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Mon Feb 16 23:55:25 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 23:55:25 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gncs7j+2992@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gncudd+r08j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185870

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>  From the post with the header:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" 
> <gbannister10@> wrote:

> > I taught for over thirty years dealing mainly with teenagers 
> > and I know that cheek comes from those pupils who are 
> > confident, have a big idea of themselves and are prepared 
> > try it on with authority figures. Do any of these characteristics 
> > fit Harry? 
> > 
> > Let's have a look at canon:
> 
> Potioncat:
> Sounds like Geoff. Ever the voice of reason. Nice balance of personal 
> experience and canon. Hard to dispute his points, so well made.

Geoff:
Ooooh. Somebody being nice. Is that because of my celebrity? 
Perhaps I should go and see Professor What's-His-Name... er.. 
Snape that's it. He'll deflate my ego for me for a small fee.

Potioncat:
> But think people! Geoff never---ever---gets involved with Snape 
> threads. He's stated several times that he doesn't even *read* Snape 
> threads. Yet as I write this post, there are at least Geoff Bannister 
> posts on this thread.
> 
> Who is this imposter?!
> 
> (Besides, if it really were Geoff, I might have to admit that what 
> all of us are really doing is trying to explain the motivation for 
> Snape being such a Berk--and no, there isn't any real excuse for 
> treating an 11-year-old like this.)

Geoff:
The reason I have involved myself directly with a Snape thread 
(although unusually I have been following these discussions at a 
distance) is that I believe that Harry has been libelled - if only 
slightly - by some contributors over his interaction with Snape in 
the first Potions lesson.

To really get into understanding Harry's feelings and actions, I believe 
that you need to have had dealings with young male teenagers (pre
-teens in this instance) and also be male. That is why I entered the 
lists on Harry's behalf, because I meet both of those criteria. I, like 
other guys on this list, have known the uncertainty and sometimes 
the bewilderment of moving through adolescence into adulthood 
and also trying to understand and relate to what we were receiving 
- physically, emotionally and intellectually - from the adults with 
whom we were in contact.

I absolve you from the duty of having to explain Snape's 
motivation.

Benedico te, mea puella!








From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 01:03:09 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 01:03:09 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnchht+l80v@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnd2cd+8oql@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185871

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> jkoney:
> > Snape obviously knew that Malfoy knew more than the average 
spells.
> It was just his way of trying to get Harry shown up in front of 
alot 
> of people. Is it petty, yes, but that is how Snape acted especially
> early on in the series.
> > 
> Carol earlier:
> > > I'm not sure about the Serpensortia spell, but it *may* have 
been
> Snape's way of testing to see whether Harry was a Parselmouth. It
> certainly served that purpose whether it was his intention or not. 
> And Snape easily Vanished the snake before it could do any harm.
> > 
> > jkoney:
> > I think you are missing the point entirely. Malfoy and Harry 
should
> have never been chosen to demonstrate. Why would you choose two
> wizards with almost no experience for a demonstration when you have
> the upper years also there.
> > 
> > No this was just Snape trying to embarrass Harry. His whispers 
with
> Draco telling him what advanced spell to use definitely let us know
> that. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> First, you're trying to have it both ways. You say that "Snape
> obviously knew that Malfoy knew more than the average spells" and 
then
> you say that "Malfoy and Harry should have never been chosen to
> demonstrate. Why would you choose two wizards with almost no
> experience." those two statements are not consistent. Either Draco,
> unlike Harry, knows "more than average spells" (in which case, it's
> odd that he's attending the Dueling Club to learn how to duel) or,
> like Harry, he's "a wizard with almost no experience." I think *all*
> the kids who attend have almost no experience, certainly none with
> real dueling. 
> 

jkoney:
I'm not trying to have it both ways. Draco knows more than other 
second year students. His casting of Serpentsortia shows that he 
knows more than other second year students.

But neither Harry or Draco are as experienced as the upper classmen 
who are also at the event. The notice was posted in the entrance hall 
for all students to see. If it was just second years they would have 
mentioned in one of their classes (such as DADA). When Harry enters 
the great hall he sees that "most of the school" was there and "were 
carring their wands and looking excited." 


Carol
> snip> 
> As you said yourself, he's an inexperienced wizard just like Harry.
> 
jkoney:
He's inexperienced, but was taught more spells (probably from his 
father) than Harry knows.

Carol
> After Snape casts Expelliarmus against Lockhart, Lockhart and Snape
> pair up the students, who are supposed to use Expelliarmus on each
> other, 
<snip>Lockhart decides to teach the
> students to block unfriendly spells. 
> 
> He initially chooses another pair of inexperienced second-years,
> Seamus and Neville. Obviously, "upper years" aren't needed for the
> experiment, and, in any case, none are available. Snape wisely if
> unkindly points out that Neville is not a good choice and chooses
> Harry and Draco instead. 

jkoney:
So Snape decides to pair up two students who don't like each other 
from two houses that don't get along. So Snape is either a complete 
idiot not knowing that this will get out of hand, or he is up to 
something.

When Lockhart chooses a pair of inexperienced students (probably 
because they were close to him and he thought he could impress them 
while an upperclassman would ignore him), Snape decides that two 
different inexperienced students should be chosen. Why does he do 
this? Either group of inexperienced students would do. But instead he 
makes Harry go up before the group, hoping he'll fail against a spell 
he doesn't know.


Carol:
> Needless to say, Draco is prepared and Harry is not and he can only
> stare when a snake comes out of Draco's wand. Snape tells Harry to
> hold still so he can Vanish the snake (which he does easily after
> Lockhart bungles the same spell and sends the snake hissing toward
> Justin Finch-Fletchley), 

jkoney:
"The end of his wand exploded. Harry watched aghast, as a long black 
snake shot out of it, fell heavily onto the floor between them, 
raised itself ready to strike. There were screams as the crowd backed 
swiftly away, clearing the floor.

"Don't move, Potter," said Snape lazily, clearly enjoying the sight 
of Harry standing motionless eye to eye with the angry snake."

That definitely seems like a set up to me. One designed to embarrass 
Harry and make him look bad in front of most of the school.

Carol: 
IMO, if we disregard Lockhart's inept contributions, we're seeing DADA
> as Snape would have taught it. He might even have become Harry's
> favorite teacher if he'd kept it up. Alas, the DADA curse and the
> whole Snape/Harry plot makes that impossible.

jkoney:
"favorite teacher"???

Harry would have ended up hating DADA and that would have been a 
disaster for Harry and everyone else.




From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 01:12:06 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 01:12:06 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gncnig+hk43@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnd2t6+akaf@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185872

> Montavilla47:
> Guess how much it matters which one he belongs to.  Not one bit.  
Either 
> way, it's a big disruption to the school. something that Dumbledore 
> specifically tried to avoid, and, the I figure it, Snape senses 
that the 
> sooner it's dealt with, the better.
>

jkoney:
The disruption to the school was only temporary. After all if you 
heard that the savior of the wizarding world, someone you heard bed 
time stories about was at your school, you would have wanted to see 
him and make comments to your friends. The novelty would have worn 
off quickly just like we see it do time and again.

If Snape was at all observant during his tenure he would have known 
that things come and go rather quickly among the students. There was 
no need to step in and try to embarrass Harry the first day of his 
class to end this novelty. Unless of course there were other more 
personal reasons. 

If anyone should have stepped in it should have been the Dumbledore 
or Harry's head of house (who happens to be the assistant head). It 
doesn't appear that either of them thought it was needed.









From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 01:42:13 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 01:42:13 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gncsoq+e3vu@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnd4ll+2dg1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185873

> Alla:
> 
> So that *is* the scene you meant. Okay then no I do not see them as 
> the same at all. Because I think it is much more reasonable to expect 
> sixth years who had DADA for several years to pick up some extra 
> knowledge, at least theoretical of the magic they never done 
> (presumably), but definitely saw in the WW.
> 
> Not that I would expect everybody to look non verbal spells of 
> course, but as I said just seems more reasonable to me that somebody 
> will see teachers doing one or another nonverbal spell and may just 
> be curious to figure out what it is they are dealing with. Heck 
> Dumbledore presumably does non verbal magic during the end of the 
> first year feast. I would not be surprised if somebody besides 
> Hermione got curious.

Montavilla47:
I don't know why Snape would take that into account.  (And, it looks
like either *no one* besides Hermione was curious enough to look
that up ahead of time, or everyone besides Hermione was savvy
enough not to try and answer Snape's first question of the year
of they didn't have to. :-)

Alla:
> NOT the first years muggleborns who just only learned that magic 
> exists and had to deal with Snape's questioning.

Montavilla47:
Okay, this is a really minor point--which is why I haven't bothered
to address it before--but we don't know that Snape knows that
Harry just got informed about the wizarding world a month 
earlier.

As far as Snape knows, Harry was sent to live with his family in
the Muggle world.  He may or may not not know that Lily's parents
are dead.  What he did know was that Lily's parents loved magic
and he probably knew (since he was her friend until they were 
fifteen or sixteen) that her parents were proud of her prowess
in magic. His experience with Lily was that she drank in everything 
he could tell her about magic, the wizarding world, and how it all
worked.  

He knows that Petunia is a nasty person, but he doesn't necessarily
know that Harry is living with her.  He may or may not know (although
he probably does, since she called Lily a freak) how opposed to magic
Petunia has become.  His experience with Petunia was that she was
curious about magic, even to the extent of spying Lily when Snape
was telling her about Hogwarts.

I think it would be counter-intuitive for him to assume that Petunia 
would tell Harry *nothing* about his parents and magic.

Before DH, I would have assumed that Snape did know something
about Harry's background.  After DH, I'm assuming that Dumbledore
told him nothing.







From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 01:53:17 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 01:53:17 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnd2t6+akaf@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnd5ad+3n8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185874

> > Montavilla47:
> > Guess how much it matters which one he belongs to.  Not one bit.  
> Either 
> > way, it's a big disruption to the school. something that Dumbledore 
> > specifically tried to avoid, and, the I figure it, Snape senses 
> that the 
> > sooner it's dealt with, the better.
> >
> 
> jkoney:
> The disruption to the school was only temporary. After all if you 
> heard that the savior of the wizarding world, someone you heard bed 
> time stories about was at your school, you would have wanted to see 
> him and make comments to your friends. The novelty would have worn 
> off quickly just like we see it do time and again.

Montavilla47:
Or not.  That sort of novelty doesn't always wear off quickly.  Note
that it never quite wore off for Colin Creevey--and he continued to 
bother Harry until he was petrified.

Hehe.  And Ginny probably would have continued bugging Harry
for years if Hermione hadn't told her to cool it.

Jkoney:
> If Snape was at all observant during his tenure he would have known 
> that things come and go rather quickly among the students. There was 
> no need to step in and try to embarrass Harry the first day of his 
> class to end this novelty. Unless of course there were other more 
> personal reasons. 

Montavilla47:
That's kind of a sweeping statement.  I doubt that special chosen
saviors of the world arrived at Hogwarts every year. :)

Jkoney: 
> If anyone should have stepped in it should have been the Dumbledore 
> or Harry's head of house (who happens to be the assistant head). It 
> doesn't appear that either of them thought it was needed.

Montavilla47:
Maybe they just weren't as bright as Snape.







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 01:55:27 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 01:55:27 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnd4ll+2dg1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnd5ef+a6ke@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185875

> > Alla:
> > 
> > So that *is* the scene you meant. Okay then no I do not see them 
as 
> > the same at all. Because I think it is much more reasonable to 
expect 
> > sixth years who had DADA for several years to pick up some extra 
> > knowledge, at least theoretical of the magic they never done 
> > (presumably), but definitely saw in the WW.
<SNIP>
> 
> Montavilla47:
> I don't know why Snape would take that into account.  (And, it looks
> like either *no one* besides Hermione was curious enough to look
> that up ahead of time, or everyone besides Hermione was savvy
> enough not to try and answer Snape's first question of the year
> of they didn't have to. :-)

Alla:

 You do not know why Snape would take into account that it is more 
reasonable in my view for six years to answer his question than for 
the first years? I am just asking for clarification here, I am not 
quite sure what you mean here by *that*. If I understood you 
correctly, my point is not that I am sure that he will take it into 
account, my point is that the fact that he is asking *six years* to 
me means a major difference between how I perceive his questions 
here. And that is why I do not think these two scenes can be compared.

Originally I was saying that I do not see any evidence that Snape is 
asking questions of the first years, or at least I was trying to say 
that. 

And yes, nobody but Hermione seemed to bother. My point is that it is 
more likely to me that somebody else *may* bother and more reasonable 
for the teacher to at least see if somebody else did.

 
> Alla:
> > NOT the first years muggleborns who just only learned that magic 
> > exists and had to deal with Snape's questioning.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Okay, this is a really minor point--which is why I haven't bothered
> to address it before--but we don't know that Snape knows that
> Harry just got informed about the wizarding world a month 
> earlier. <SNIP>

Alla:

I cannot argue with your assumption, but it makes no sense to me that 
Dumbledore would not tell Snape where Harry went. For the simple 
reason that Dumbledore asked Snape of protecting Harry, to me it 
makes sense that he would tell him where he placed his protege, in 
case Snape needs to go and protect him.

And it also seems to me that Snape would have easily deducted that 
Harry is not in WW simply because he does not hear anything about him 
till he comes back.

I mean, again, your assumption is as good as mine of course and 
indeed it is a minor point, but I just do not see it.

JMO,

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 04:26:40 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 04:26:40 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gndced+4ltl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gndea0+n3aj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185877

Lealess:
<SNIP>
Snape remarked, "Our new -- celebrity." If my
teacher had make Snape's comment, it is possible that other students
would have sympathized with me, rather than viewed me as an oddity. I
might have been uncomfortable, but I wouldn't have been ready to judge
the teacher as unfair based on that one remark. I didn't hate my
first (or almost every other) teacher based on the joke.

Where I part ways with Harry (and Ron) is that I never would have
raised my eyebrows to Snape's Potions speech. That was disrespectful
and ... having been a teacher, it would have made me wonder just who
these students were. They would have drawn my attention. I would
have wanted to correct their perception that they could disregard my
lessons, or worse, disrupt my class.<SNIP>

Alla:

It seems to me that you are parting ways with Harry and Ron right 
from the beginning. You seem to give teacher a pass for that remark, 
but would not give them a pass for response which could be just 
possibly response to that remark and not necessarily to speech itself?

Having studied to be a teacher (not working as one, but spending lots 
of time helping with kids), having had a family member for a teacher, 
I may have just taken a long hard look upon myself and try to see how 
my emotions got a run of me and if I cannot control them, at least 
not to show them, I may have no business teaching this boy.

As Susan said, I like when teachers earn respect and not just demand 
one.

Obviously my remarks are about hypothetically being in Snape's place 
and have nothing to do with you as a teacher.

Lealess:
I'm sure Snape's (or other teachers') expectations of Harry were not
impartial. Snape's emotional response to Harry was no doubt complex
and probably not even something he was consciously aware of. Just
because Snape was an adult did not mean he could control his emotions
(as Flitwick couldn't). Snape tried too hard to suppress them,
perhaps because they were so strong.<SNIP>

Alla:

I see no evidence that he attempted to control his emotions at all in 
that scene. Flitwick seems to me to try very hard to not take it upon 
the boy and ended up bursting out.

JMO,

Alla

 




From sistermagpie at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 17 05:08:51 2009
From: sistermagpie at earthlink.net (sistermagpie)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 05:08:51 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gndea0+n3aj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gndgp3+913k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185878

> Alla:
> 
> I see no evidence that he attempted to control his emotions at all in 
> that scene. Flitwick seems to me to try very hard to not take it upon 
> the boy and ended up bursting out.

Magpie:
Unless you assume Snape desperately wanted to leap across the room and 
beat Harry with his own cauldron. If you think of it that way, Snape 
was a model of restraint.

-m




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 06:45:41 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 06:45:41 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnd5ef+a6ke@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gndmel+j5ji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185879

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> > > Alla:
> > > 
> > > So that *is* the scene you meant. Okay then no I do not see them 
> as 
> > > the same at all. Because I think it is much more reasonable to 
> expect 
> > > sixth years who had DADA for several years to pick up some extra 
> > > knowledge, at least theoretical of the magic they never done 
> > > (presumably), but definitely saw in the WW.
> <SNIP>
> > 
> > Montavilla47:
> > I don't know why Snape would take that into account.  (And, it looks
> > like either *no one* besides Hermione was curious enough to look
> > that up ahead of time, or everyone besides Hermione was savvy
> > enough not to try and answer Snape's first question of the year
> > of they didn't have to. :-)
> 
> Alla:
> 
>  You do not know why Snape would take into account that it is more 
> reasonable in my view for six years to answer his question than for 
> the first years? I am just asking for clarification here, I am not 
> quite sure what you mean here by *that*. If I understood you 
> correctly, my point is not that I am sure that he will take it into 
> account, my point is that the fact that he is asking *six years* to 
> me means a major difference between how I perceive his questions 
> here. And that is why I do not think these two scenes can be compared.

Montavilla47:
Yes, I don't think Snape would take into account that it's more 
reasonable for a sixth year student to have read through the 
first few chapters of their books than for a first year to have done
so.  First year or sixth, he is putting his students on notice that 
they are expected to come to his class prepared.

And, since this is the first year that Snape is teaching D.A.D.A.,
he may well emphasis that by using the same technique he uses
in first year.

Alla:
> Originally I was saying that I do not see any evidence that Snape is 
> asking questions of the first years, or at least I was trying to say 
> that. 
> 
> And yes, nobody but Hermione seemed to bother. My point is that it is 
> more likely to me that somebody else *may* bother and more reasonable 
> for the teacher to at least see if somebody else did.

Montavilla47:
Alla, how are we supposed to provide evidence that Snape asks
questions of other first years?  We can't look into other first
year classes.  Give me proof that he doesn't!  :-)

I can point to one thing:  Ron does reassure Harry that Snape
is generally mean and took "loads" of points from the Twins.
>From *Ron's* reaction, I infer that what Snape did wasn't 
considered outrageously mean--just somewhat mean from
the POV of the average student.

Granted, Harry is more correct--because Snape *does* have
baggage and that *does* color the interaction.  But Ron's 
reaction shows us that it's really not that big a deal--just
one of the thousands of petty annoyances that students
deal with their first year--like those staircases that move
just when you're trying to get to class.  Or Peeves.

And, just in case you're going to tell me that Ron just
doesn't have the empathy to realize horrible Snape was,
I will note that in fifth year, when Harry encountered
Umbridge, a truly sadistic teacher who allowed her 
preconceptions of Harry to rule her actions, Ron was
"sickened" and advised Harry to report her immediately.

> > Alla:
> > > NOT the first years muggleborns who just only learned that magic 
> > > exists and had to deal with Snape's questioning.
> > 
> > Montavilla47:
> > Okay, this is a really minor point--which is why I haven't bothered
> > to address it before--but we don't know that Snape knows that
> > Harry just got informed about the wizarding world a month 
> > earlier. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> I cannot argue with your assumption, but it makes no sense to me that 
> Dumbledore would not tell Snape where Harry went. For the simple 
> reason that Dumbledore asked Snape of protecting Harry, to me it 
> makes sense that he would tell him where he placed his protege, in 
> case Snape needs to go and protect him.

Montavilla47:
Yes, it would make sense.  But that doesn't mean Dumbledore
would do it.  Because he doesn't seem to have told Snape other things
that would have made sense as well--like the fact that Draco was 
celebrating some great accompishment on the night he and Harry went
to the cave.  That might have been good information to impart to the 
fellow charged with keeping Draco in check.

Alla:
> And it also seems to me that Snape would have easily deducted that 
> Harry is not in WW simply because he does not hear anything about him 
> till he comes back.

Montavilla47:
And again, even if Dumbedore told Snape that Harry was with his 
family, Snape might not be aware that that meant Petunia, rather
than Lily's parents.  And, even if he knew that it was Petunia, there's
no reason for him to assume she wouldn't tell Harry about being 
magical.  
 
Alla:
> I mean, again, your assumption is as good as mine of course and 
> indeed it is a minor point, but I just do not see it.

Montavilla47:
Yes.  But can you see that your assumption that Snape knew that
Harry was stepping into a world that he knew nothing about, 
is equally unsupported?







From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 07:36:05 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 07:36:05 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gndmel+j5ji@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gndpd5+8edv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185880

> Magpie:
> Unless you assume Snape desperately wanted to leap across the room 
and 
> beat Harry with his own cauldron. If you think of it that way, 
Snape 
> was a model of restraint.

Alla:

LOLOL. True that.


> Montavilla47:
> Alla, how are we supposed to provide evidence that Snape asks
> questions of other first years?  We can't look into other first
> year classes.  Give me proof that he doesn't!  :-)
><SNIP of the whole post>

Alla:

No, it is not my job to prove the negative. You argued that Snape 
routinely asks these questions, so the burden is on you (generic you 
of course) to prove the point. Because if not I can argue to use 
Magpie hilarious example that Snape routinely beats students over the 
head with the cauldron and please, prove that he does not. After all 
we do not see all potions classes, don"t we?

IMO if JKR wanted to mention it, she would have done it easily with 
Percy or Fred.




From zgirnius at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 16:15:24 2009
From: zgirnius at yahoo.com (Zara)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:15:24 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gndpd5+8edv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnenqs+cla8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185881

> Alla:
> No, it is not my job to prove the negative. You argued that Snape 
> routinely asks these questions, so the burden is on you (generic you 
> of course) to prove the point. Because if not I can argue to use 
> Magpie hilarious example that Snape routinely beats students over the 
> head with the cauldron and please, prove that he does not. After all 
> we do not see all potions classes, don"t we?

Zara:
I disagree. We have shown that in all first days of class shown in the 
text of the series, of which there are two, Snape does ask questions 
about the material of *THAT YEAR*. Non-verbal spells are not even 
mentioned as part of the OWL curriculum. They appear for the first time 
in NEWT classes, and presto, in the first NEWT class of a group of 
students in HBP, he asks a question about them. So our case is 
supported. Your argument, as far as I can see, is a form of special 
pleading that, somehow, his first class teaching new NEWT DADA students 
is "different". Since the characters, dialogue, and setting of ANY 
group of scenes are bound to not be identical in some way, you are 
setting an unreasonable burden of proof.

WE can't know for sure that he does this in ALL classes, but we have 
sertainly made it plausible that he has done this on more than one 
different occasion, which is the best anyone can do without more 
scenes, it seems to me.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 16:49:42 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:49:42 -0000
Subject: Apparating and the Theory of Relativity
Message-ID: <gnepr6+gbb9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185882

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0812694554/ref=cm_rdp_product

Alla:

I do not know if I mentioned it here yet, but as I am sure many of 
you did, I have read quite a few books about Harry Potter. For the 
most part I remain completely unimpressed with the quality of the 
scholarship. I mean, I have two or three books which I think of as 
pretty good quality, the rest are in my opinion either stretching a 
point big time to try and apply concepts to the world of Harry Potter 
or usually describe something very obvious.

So, this book to me is for the most part stretching point big time, 
but I figured I will try to finish it anyway.

One of the sixteen essays in this book is called "Space, time and 
magic" by Michael Silberstein. He argues some pretty obvious points 
in it such as that Magical world of potterverse is a part of our 
world and we can figure it out by seeing that Platform 9 ?, MoM and 
Gringott are located in London, etc. Well, duh.

But then he also talks about magical travel means and the way he 
talks about apparating made me want to ask you guys a question.

He is supposes that apparating is not like teleporting instantly, but 
moving through the space.

He uses the wording from this GoF quote to show that Harry is moving 
through space and not just instantly appears in another one:

"It happened immediately:  Harry felt as though a hook just behind 
his navel had been suddenly jerked irresistibly forward.  His feet 
left the ground; he could feel Ron and Hermione on either side of 
him, their shoulders banging into his; they were all speeding forward 
in a howl of wind and swirling color; his forefinger was stuck to the 
boot as though it was pulling him magnetically onward and then - His 
feet slammed into the ground; Ron staggered into him and he fell 
over; the Portkey hit the ground near his head with a heavy thud. - 
ch. 6"

And he talks about Molly mentioning splinting during Apparating, we 
of course now have HBP to confirm that, this book was out before HBP.

So now I am finally coming to my question. This guy also talks about 
apparating as creating sort of wormholes tunnels through time and 
space, if we imagine space as some sort of elastic rubber. He says 
that Theory of relativity does not prevent the possibility of those 
tunnels in real life?

I mean, I know very little about theory of relativity besides general 
definition, so can somebody with more scientific mind explain to me 
how the Apparating is not in contradiction with it?

Thanks
Alla







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 17:26:44 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:26:44 -0000
Subject: Apparating and the Theory of Relativity
In-Reply-To: <gnepr6+gbb9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnes0k+fpv8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185883

Alla wrote:
> One of the sixteen essays in this book is called "Space, time and 
magic" by Michael Silberstein. <snip>
> 
> But then he also talks about magical travel means and the way he 
talks about apparating made me want to ask you guys a question.
> 
> He is supposes that apparating is not like teleporting instantly,
but moving through the space.
> 
> He uses the wording from this GoF quote to show that Harry is moving
through space and not just instantly appears in another one:
> 
> "It happened immediately:  Harry felt as though a hook just behind
his navel had been suddenly jerked irresistibly forward.  His feet
left the ground; he could feel Ron and Hermione on either side of 
> him, their shoulders banging into his; they were all speeding
forward in a howl of wind and swirling color; his forefinger was stuck
to the boot as though it was pulling him magnetically onward and then
- His feet slammed into the ground; Ron staggered into him and he fell
over; the Portkey hit the ground near his head with a heavy thud. - 
> ch. 6"
<snip>

Carol responds:
 I don't know anything about the Theory of Relativity, so I snipped
that part, but if your author is using this quotation to discuss
Apparation, he's confusing two different modes of magical
transportation. Although this description *does* sound as if it
involves traveling through space--feet leaving the ground and later
slamming into the ground, feeling others beside him, speeding forward
"in a howl of wind and swirling color"--it applies only to portkeys.

Since Harry had never experienced Apparation as of GoF, your author is
jumping the gun a bit, I think. BTW, Floo powder also seems to involve
moving through space. Apparition may or may not.

Splinching--leaving body parts behind--may indicate that it does, but
we'd need to closely examine a quotation from HBP or DH to be sure.
(BTW, I wonder whether wizards could bleed to death from Splinching if
the body parts aren't found. If someone magically closes up the wounds
so the Splinchee won't bleed, how could they reattach the body part
when it was found?)

Carol, probably overanalyzing the Splinching thing




From kenadams705 at btinternet.com  Tue Feb 17 17:56:42 2009
From: kenadams705 at btinternet.com (KEN ADAMS)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:56:42 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparating and the Theory of Relativity
In-Reply-To: <gnepr6+gbb9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <888544.46937.qm@web87007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185884

Alla:
<SNIP>
I mean, I know very little about theory of relativity besides general
definition, so can somebody with more scientific mind explain to me
how the Apparating is not in contradiction with it?

KEN:
I really havn't had time to explore all the nuances involved here but let's have a go anyway.
It seems to me that apparition involves the disappearance from one place and the instantaneous appearance somewhere else. Somewhere else may be hundreds of miles (kilometres) away. This means that speeds must be close to those of light. From what I know of the theory of relativity which is very incomplete, to be generous. This is impossible.
KEN















From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 18:24:34 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:24:34 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnd2cd+8oql@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnevd2+2ojt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185885

> jkoney:
> I'm not trying to have it both ways. Draco knows more than other
second year students. His casting of Serpentsortia shows that he knows
more than other second year students.

Carol responds:
How so? Maybe Serpensortia is one of those spells that a second-year
can get right the first time he uses it, especially if he's motivated.
(JKR is somewhat inconsistent in the mattering of mastering spells.
Harry gets some right the first time and has to practice others. We
don't see Draco learning spells at all.) Any time we see Draco and
Harry casting spells at each other, specifically the time that Draco
casts a tooth-elongating spell (Densuageo) and Harry casts a
boil-causing spell and the fight in the girls' bathroom in HBP, they
appear to be on the same level. If you can show evidence that Draco as
a second-year is more advanced than Harry, I'd appreciate seeing it.

jkoney: 
> But neither Harry or Draco are as experienced as the upper classmen
who are also at the event. The notice was posted in the entrance hall
for all students to see. If it was just second years they would have
mentioned in one of their classes (such as DADA). When Harry enters
the great hall he sees that "most of the school" was there and "were
carring their wands and looking excited." 

Carol responds:
"Most of the school" is undoubtedly an exaggeration given that
Hogwarts has at least 280 students, an impossible number for even
Snape to manage alone (Lockhart may be nominally in charge, but he's
more hindrance than help). Even the Apparation (Apparition?) lessons
in HBP, which involved only the sixth years, required not only the
Apparation teacher but the four Heads of Houses to keep order.

I read "most of the school" as typical JKR-style exaggeration like the
descriptions of Hagrid and Madam Maxime (hands the size of trashbin
lids and feet the size of small sleds would require them both to be
about 24 feet tall, larger than Grawp). JKR often exaggerates the
number of people present at an event. If you count the number of
tables and people per table at the Yule Ball, for example, you'll have
(IIRC) about 800 people, several times the population of Hogwarts even
though only fourth-years and up are allowed to attend (along with
their possibly younger dates).

If any older students that Harry knows were present, for example the
Twins or Angelina, JKR would surely have mentioned it. (Sure, the
event was open to the whole school, but evidently the older students,
experienced in hexing each other in the corridors, didn't need it.)

The whole incident is just a plot device, in any case, primarily
intended to illustrate to a sizeable number of students--and Professor
Snape--that Harry is a Parselmouth and to set up the Justin
Finch-Fletchley incident, making Harry a suspect in his upcoming
Petrification. (It also serves other purposes that I've already
identified, including exposing Lockhart and hinting at Snape's real
skill in DADA.)
> 
> Carol
> > snip> 
> > As you said yourself, he's an inexperienced wizard just like Harry.
> > 
> jkoney:
> He's inexperienced, but was taught more spells (probably from his 
father) than Harry knows.

Carol responds:
Evidence, please? We see them casting spells at each other before
they're set up as the demonstrating pair. The only advantage Draco has
is that he cheats, getting in his first spell before Lockhart has
finished counting. We don't know what that first spell was, but
there's no evidence that the other one, Tarantellegra, is any more
difficult than Harry's Rictusempra. You're making unsupported
generalizations and treating them as if they were facts.

> jkoney:
> So Snape decides to pair up two students who don't like each other
from two houses that don't get along. So Snape is either a complete
idiot not knowing that this will get out of hand, or he is up to 
something.

Carol responds:

Well, we know that he's not an idiot, complete or otherwise, but we
also know that he's protecting Harry. If he's "up to something," it's
giving Harry much-needed experience. That's what DADA is
about--teaching kids to defend themselves against enemies. Much later,
in HBP, Snape is trying to get the students to do much the same thing,
but nonverbally. One is supposed to cast a jinx or hex nonverbally and
the other is supposed to block the hex nonverbally. When Snape sees
Harry waiting, apparently forever, for Ron's hex to come, he steps in
and either casts or pretends to cast a spell at Harry to make him cast
a Protego. And when he does so, knocking Snape over, the only thing
Snape yells at him for is not casting it nonverbally. As for getting
out of hand, they're inexperienced second-years, and Snape can easily
undo any of their spells, as we see first with the Finite Incantatem
that stops *every spell in the room* and then with the conjured snake
that he easily vanishes.

jkoney:
> When Lockhart chooses a pair of inexperienced students (probably 
because they were close to him and he thought he could impress them 
while an upperclassman would ignore him), 

Carol responds:
As far as I can see, *all* the students present are inexperienced. We
don't know, BTW, what kind of DADA teachers the older students have
had, but Quirrell doesn't seem to have been as inept as Lockhart, and,
according to Umbridge, he followed the Ministry-approved curriculum.
It's probably safe to assume that he taught Protego, probably the most
important defensive spell next to Expelliarmus, to the students at the
appropriate level (fourth year?), which is probably why no older
students appear to be present. As for why Lockhart chose Seamus and
Neville, I agree that it was probably because they were close at hand,
but that proves nothing one way or the other.

jkoney:

> Snape decides that two different inexperienced students should be
chosen. Why does he do this? Either group of inexperienced students
would do. But instead he makes Harry go up before the group, hoping
he'll fail against a spell he doesn't know.

Carol responds:
You keep repeating that assumption, but you're not providing any
support. We know Snape's reasons for rejecting Neville and Seamus. He
states them openly. As for choosing Harry and Draco, he has a special
interest in that pair. One is a student in his own House who likes and
respects him and who, unlike, say, Crabbe, is unlikely to make a fool
of himself. The other is the student he is watching over and
protecting. Remember Dumbledore's words in "The Prince's Tale"? "We
[meaning himself and Snape] have protected him because it has been
essential to teach him, to raise him, to let him try his strength" (DH
Am. ed. 687). IMO, that's what is happening here. And, had Lockhart
actually taught Harry Protego, or at least given him the incantation
even if he couldn't do the hand movement, Harry would have done as
well as Draco.

Sure, Snape appears to have a moment of enjoyment as he sees Harry
panicking, but I doubt that his intention was to make Harry, who is as
good at spell casting as any other kid in the room, fail publicly. He
intended to Vanish the snake immediately if Harry failed to cast the
Protego and would have done so if the bungling Lockhart hadn't stepped
in to attempt the Vanishing spell himself. 

Carol earlier:
Why would Snape, who is *protecting* Harry, want him to fail against a
spell he doesn't know? Protego will block any spell except an
Unforgiveable Curse.

Carol again:
You still haven't answered this question.

> jkoney:
>
> 
> "Don't move, Potter," said Snape lazily, clearly enjoying the sight 
> of Harry standing motionless eye to eye with the angry snake."
> 
> That definitely seems like a set up to me. One designed to embarrass 
> Harry and make him look bad in front of most of the school.

Carol responds:

It may look like a setup to you, and perhaps it did to Harry though
there's no indication that he felt that way, but the set-up idea
contradicts the canon fact that Snape is protecting Harry. And you
left out an important part of the quotation, "I'll get rid of it."

We don't know what's in Snape's mind, but he clearly sees no danger to
Harry that he can't easily eliminate. the whole point of the pairing
off, as I said before, was for one student (Draco) to cast an
"unfriendly spell" (Serpensortia) and for the other student (Harry) to
block that spell using Protego (the blocking spell). there was even a
chance that the spell would backfire on its caster (as Snape's
Legilimens spell backfires onto him when Harry casts a Protego during
an Occlumency lesson), in which case it would have been *Draco* who
had a moment of fritht with the snake before Snape Vanished it.

Carol: 
> IMO, if we disregard Lockhart's inept contributions, we're seeing
DADA as Snape would have taught it. He might even have become Harry's
favorite teacher if he'd kept it up. Alas, the DADA curse and the
whole Snape/Harry plot makes that impossible.
> 
> jkoney:
> "favorite teacher"???
> 
> Harry would have ended up hating DADA and that would have been a 
disaster for Harry and everyone else.

Carol responds:
Well, we'll just have to differ on that. I think that Harry would have
loved to have the chance to duel Draco in a classroom--with Snape's
approval.

At any rate, what is DADA beyond third year other than having students
fire hexes at each other so that they can learn to defend themselves?
In Fake!Moody's class, the "teacher" even cast the Imperius Curse on
his own students. At other times in that class, the students hex each
other. Harry learned Stupefy and other DADA spells for the TWT by
practicing them on Ron. In Snape's DADA class, the students pair off
and try to hex each other or block the hex nonverbally. Harry uses the
same technique, minus the nonverbal element, in his own DA lessons.

Carol, who understands jkoney's interpretation but does not agree with it




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Tue Feb 17 21:34:02 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:34:02 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnenqs+cla8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnfaga+np29@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185886

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Zara" <zgirnius at ...> wrote:
>
> > Alla:
> > No, it is not my job to prove the negative. You argued that Snape 
> > routinely asks these questions, so the burden is on you (generic you 
> > of course) to prove the point. Because if not I can argue to use 
> > Magpie hilarious example that Snape routinely beats students over the 
> > head with the cauldron and please, prove that he does not. After all 
> > we do not see all potions classes, don"t we?
> 
> Zara:
> I disagree. We have shown that in all first days of class shown in the 
> text of the series, of which there are two, Snape does ask questions 
> about the material of *THAT YEAR*. Non-verbal spells are not even 
> mentioned as part of the OWL curriculum. They appear for the first time 
> in NEWT classes, and presto, in the first NEWT class of a group of 
> students in HBP, he asks a question about them. So our case is 
> supported. Your argument, as far as I can see, is a form of special 
> pleading that, somehow, his first class teaching new NEWT DADA students 
> is "different". Since the characters, dialogue, and setting of ANY 
> group of scenes are bound to not be identical in some way, you are 
> setting an unreasonable burden of proof.
> 
> WE can't know for sure that he does this in ALL classes, but we have 
> sertainly made it plausible that he has done this on more than one 
> different occasion, which is the best anyone can do without more 
> scenes, it seems to me.

Geoff:
I think we are in an "agree to disagree" situation. Neither of you can 
really draw any sensible, concrete conclusions from the size of the 
statistical sample.

We know that Slytherin/Gryffindor take Potions together up to the fifth 
year. One can therefore assume that Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff act as a 
second pairing.

So, for any one academic year, each year up to the the fifth has two 
"first Potions classes of the year", a total of ten. Assuming that the 
Sixth Year classes have only one group per year, that makes twelve 
classes fitting this description per year.

We have a snapshot of two "first classes" separated by five years. 
Discounting Harry's Upper Sixth year when he wasn't there this 
covers seventy two "first class of year" situations.

Hence we are only seeing Snape handling a "first class" in 2.78% of
the total from which I think that drawing any conclusion about 
Snape's usual practice is untenable.






From willsonkmom at msn.com  Wed Feb 18 00:24:13 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 00:24:13 -0000
Subject: Apparating and the Theory of Relativity
In-Reply-To: <gnepr6+gbb9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnfkfd+espn@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185887

 "dumbledore11214" wrote:

> 
> So now I am finally coming to my question. This guy also talks about 
> apparating as creating sort of wormholes tunnels through time and 
> space, if we imagine space as some sort of elastic rubber. He says 
> that Theory of relativity does not prevent the possibility of those 
> tunnels in real life?

Potioncat:
It's all hooey, Alla. There was a similar documentary (stretching the 
word, here) about the science of Star Trek.

Does the book include creditionals for the different authors?

Potioncat--who knows almost nothing about relativity.




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 18 05:11:46 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 05:11:46 -0000
Subject: Apparating and the Theory of Relativity
In-Reply-To: <gnepr6+gbb9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gng5ai+6iev@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185888

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214"
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> This guy also talks about apparating as creating sort of 
> wormholes tunnels through time and space, if we imagine 
> space as some sort of elastic rubber. He says 
> that Theory of relativity does not prevent the possibility of those 
> tunnels in real life?



I know even less than you about theory of relativity (I only know that
it exists and that Einstein came up with it, LOL), but, according to
some sources, this theory does not contradict the existence of
wormholes (which doesn't mean that they exist in RL though :-)). Of
course, I'm not sure how reliable Internet sources are, but they
(Wikipedia in particular) give a lot of reference to science books, so
I really don't know what to believe. 

According to these sources, even if wormholes existed, it would be
impossible to pass through them (traversable wormholes), because they
are extremely unstable. If I understand it correctly, wormholes are
something theoretical, something that is used as a solution to some
equations in general relativity, not something that really exists.
OTOH, maybe I understand it all wrong, because I was never good at
physics (or whatever it is :-)).


zanooda, who thinks that Alla's question is very interesting, but
definitely OT ... :-).






From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 18 13:25:45 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:25:45 -0000
Subject: Apparating and the Theory of Relativity
In-Reply-To: <gnes0k+fpv8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnh28p+seqv@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185889

> Carol responds:
>  I don't know anything about the Theory of Relativity, so I snipped
> that part, but if your author is using this quotation to discuss
> Apparation, he's confusing two different modes of magical
> transportation. Although this description *does* sound as if it
> involves traveling through space--feet leaving the ground and later
> slamming into the ground, feeling others beside him, speeding 
forward
> "in a howl of wind and swirling color"--it applies only to portkeys.

Alla:

Right, definitely he makes an assumption that portkey transportation 
and apparition are all and the same, I suppose based on the claim 
that they are traveling by Portkey because kids cannot apparate yet.

That brings a question, do we know that they are not the same? I 
mean, of course there is a use of Portkey which is different, but 
what else?


Carol:
> Since Harry had never experienced Apparation as of GoF, your author 
is
> jumping the gun a bit, I think. 

Alla:

Right, the book was out before HBP and if there is an updated edition 
I am not buying it :-)

Carol:
>BTW, Floo powder also seems to involve
> moving through space. Apparition may or may not.

Alla:

Right, well I tend to think that it does involve moving through space 
but of course I cannot be sure.

Carol:
> Splinching--leaving body parts behind--may indicate that it does, 
but
> we'd need to closely examine a quotation from HBP or DH to be sure.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Here is citation from HBP from chapter four when Harry apparates with 
Dumbledore and to me it does imply moving through space.

"Harry felt Dumbledore's arm twist away from him and redoubled his 
grip; the next thing he knew, everything went black; he was being 
pressed very hard from all directions; he could not breathe, there 
were iron hands tightening around his chest; his eyeballs were being 
forced back into his head; his eardrums were being pushed deeper into 
his skull and then ---

He gulped great lungfuls of cold night air and opened his streaming 
eyes. He felt as though he had just been forced through a very tight 
rubber tube. It was a few seconds before he realized that Privet 
Drive had vanished." - HBP, ch.4, p.58, paperback, am.ed.

It is the feeling that he was being forced through tight rubber tube 
makes me think that the analogy about tunnels through time and space 
is actually quite appropriate IMO of course.

> Potioncat:
> It's all hooey, Alla. There was a similar documentary (stretching 
the 
> word, here) about the science of Star Trek.

Alla:

Heh, there is another essay there about Magic and science, this one 
does not say that apparating is possible in real life lol, it just 
says that this analogy (worm tunnels?) is not against theory of 
relativity, he even goes to say that the tunnels are created by 
magical means.

So, yeah, as I said, I think it is stretched and stretched, I was 
just curious as to even the remote possibility that there is 
something scientific in there, but yeah usually it is hooey :-)

Potioncat: 
> Does the book include creditionals for the different authors?

Alla:

Yes, they are mostly philosophy professors in different colleges.











From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 18 20:10:05 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:10:05 -0000
Subject: Apparating and the Theory of Relativity
In-Reply-To: <gnh28p+seqv@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnhput+8ir5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185890

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214"
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:

> That brings a question, do we know that they are not the same? I 
> mean, of course there is a use of Portkey which is different, but 
> what else?


zanooda:

The sensations are different :-). With Apparition it's mostly darkness
and pressure, and with a Portkey it's "howl of wind and swirling
color" - no pressure, no squeezing through a rubber tube :-).


> > Carol:

> > BTW, Floo powder also seems to involve
> > moving through space. Apparition may or may not.
 
> Alla:
 
> Right, well I tend to think that it does involve moving 
> through space but of course I cannot be sure.


zanooda:

If not moving through space, then what is it? Do you mean that sort of
teleportation where a body kind of disintegrates at the starting point
and then gets reconstructed at the destination point :-)? If so, I
agree with you, Apparition doesn't seem to be it. When Apparating
together with someone, Harry can feel their hands  (Hermione, Ron,
Dobby), so he definitely doesn't cease to exist even for a second.
However, it seems to me that Splinching is more consistent with this
kind of teleportation than with "moving through a wormhole" kind.






From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 01:05:16 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 01:05:16 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnevd2+2ojt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnib8c+fdu9@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185891

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol responds:
> How so? Maybe Serpensortia is one of those spells that a second-year
> can get right the first time he uses it, especially if he's 
motivated.
> (JKR is somewhat inconsistent in the mattering of mastering spells.
> Harry gets some right the first time and has to practice others. We
> don't see Draco learning spells at all.) Any time we see Draco and
> Harry casting spells at each other, specifically the time that Draco
> casts a tooth-elongating spell (Densuageo) and Harry casts a
> boil-causing spell and the fight in the girls' bathroom in HBP, they
> appear to be on the same level. If you can show evidence that Draco 
as
> a second-year is more advanced than Harry, I'd appreciate seeing it.
>

jkoney:
Serpensortia is a conjuring spell. That is beyond what the second 
years have been taught. Therefore it must be a spell that Draco 
learned at some other time. It wouldn't make sense for a second year 
to master an advanced spell by just hearing whispered to him.

We know that the Weasley's have done magic around their house and 
haven't been caught. How else we they know of Ginny's bat-bogey hex. 
We also know that they have extra wands around the house from 
deceased family members. That is how Ron got his first wand.

We also know that the Malfoy's don't believe the law applies to them 
since Lucius got off after the first downfall of Voldemort. Having 
Draco learn spells at home wouldn't be a far stretch to imagine. In 
fact Snape, who is friendly with the Malfoy's may have come over and 
taught him some things.

 
> Carol responds:
> "Most of the school" is undoubtedly an exaggeration given that
> Hogwarts has at least 280 students, an impossible number for even
> Snape to manage alone 

jkoney:
We know that JKR sometimes gets her math wrong. But she didn't give 
us some exaggerated figure. We were just told that most of the school 
was there. Considering that it was posted in a main area and that the 
students were fearful from the attacks, we can believe it when we are 
told that most (not all) of the school was present. If we don't see 
the Weasley twins, it's because they have a prime opportunity to get 
into some mischief with most of the school being busy.


> > Carol
> > > snip> 
> > > As you said yourself, he's an inexperienced wizard just like 
Harry.
> > > 

> > jkoney:
> > So Snape decides to pair up two students who don't like each other
> from two houses that don't get along. So Snape is either a complete
> idiot not knowing that this will get out of hand, or he is up to 
> something.
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Well, we know that he's not an idiot, complete or otherwise, but we
> also know that he's protecting Harry. If he's "up to something," 
it's
> giving Harry much-needed experience. 

jkoney:
He can still be "protecting" Harry and be up to something. Such as 
having an advanced spell that he doesn't know cast at him, making him 
look foolish in front of the rest of the school. 

As for the much needed experience, this was supposed to be a learning 
experience and Ron would have been a better choice because there 
wouldn't have been any animosity mixed in. 

Carol:
That's what DADA is
> about--teaching kids to defend themselves against enemies. 

jkoney:
Exactly. First you learn the spell then you practice it. It's not 
taking free shots at someone who doesn't know the defense.

CArol:
Much later,
> in HBP, Snape is trying to get the students to do much the same 
thing,
> but nonverbally. One is supposed to cast a jinx or hex nonverbally 
and
> the other is supposed to block the hex nonverbally. When Snape sees
> Harry waiting, apparently forever, for Ron's hex to come, he steps 
in
> and either casts or pretends to cast a spell at Harry to make him 
cast
> a Protego.

jkoney:
Again Snape singles out Harry when no one else in the class was 
making much progress.


> jkoney:
> > When Lockhart chooses a pair of inexperienced students (probably 
> because they were close to him and he thought he could impress them 
> while an upperclassman would ignore him), 
> 
> Carol responds:
> As far as I can see, *all* the students present are inexperienced. 
We
> don't know, BTW, what kind of DADA teachers the older students have
> had, but Quirrell doesn't seem to have been as inept as Lockhart, 
and,
> according to Umbridge, he followed the Ministry-approved curriculum.
> It's probably safe to assume that he taught Protego, probably the 
most
> important defensive spell next to Expelliarmus, to the students at 
the
> appropriate level (fourth year?), which is probably why no older
> students appear to be present. As for why Lockhart chose Seamus and
> Neville, I agree that it was probably because they were close at 
hand,
> but that proves nothing one way or the other.
> 
> jkoney:
> 
> > Snape decides that two different inexperienced students should be
> chosen. Why does he do this? Either group of inexperienced students
> would do. But instead he makes Harry go up before the group, hoping
> he'll fail against a spell he doesn't know.
> 
> Carol responds:
> You keep repeating that assumption, but you're not providing any
> support. We know Snape's reasons for rejecting Neville and Seamus. 
He
> states them openly. As for choosing Harry and Draco, he has a 
special
> interest in that pair.

jkoney:
Since we know that the spell is more advanced than a second year, 
there is no reason to suspect that Harry could defend himself. 

Again, if they are all inexperienced than any pair will do. There was 
no reason to change. Snape insults Neville even though we don't have 
any reason to believe he's seen Neville cast a spell. After all there 
is no silly wand waving in his class.

He doesn't say anything against Seamus. So even if his reason had any 
validity, he only needs to replace Neville, not both of them.

So manuevering Harry and Draco together, rejecting the first pair and 
then having Draco cast an advanced spell means that Snape was setting 
Harry up to fail in front of most of the school. 



 > 
> Carol earlier:
> Why would Snape, who is *protecting* Harry, want him to fail 
against a
> spell he doesn't know? Protego will block any spell except an
> Unforgiveable Curse.
> 
> Carol again:
> You still haven't answered this question.

jkoney:
You are still under the misguided impression that protecting Harry 
and putting down/embarrassing Harry are mutually exclusive. They 
aren't and Snape uses his position as a professor to take cheap shots 
at Harry because he doesn't seem to be able to distiguish Harry from 
James. He also gets to do it without Harry having any ability to 
respond. 

So yes Snape can be "protecting" Harry but still put him down, or put 
him in situations that will make him look bad.

> 
> > jkoney:
> > "Don't move, Potter," said Snape lazily, clearly enjoying the 
sight 
> > of Harry standing motionless eye to eye with the angry snake."
> > 
> > That definitely seems like a set up to me. One designed to 
embarrass 
> > Harry and make him look bad in front of most of the school.
> 
> Carol: 
> > IMO, if we disregard Lockhart's inept contributions, we're seeing
> DADA as Snape would have taught it. He might even have become 
Harry's
> favorite teacher if he'd kept it up. Alas, the DADA curse and the
> whole Snape/Harry plot makes that impossible.
> > 
> > jkoney:
> > "favorite teacher"???
> > 
> > Harry would have ended up hating DADA and that would have been a 
> disaster for Harry and everyone else.
> 
> Carol responds:
> Well, we'll just have to differ on that. I think that Harry would 
have
> loved to have the chance to duel Draco in a classroom--with Snape's
> approval.

jkoney
Harry would have loved to duel Draco with any teachers permission. 
But we don't see dueling in any of the DADA classes that Harry took.
We did see how Harry responded to having Snape teach DADA. I think 
everyone can agree that he didn't enjoy it.








From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 01:10:29 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 01:10:29 -0000
Subject: Apparating and the Theory of Relativity
In-Reply-To: <gnfkfd+espn@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnibi5+8urp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185892

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> 
wrote:
>
>  "dumbledore11214" wrote:
> 
> > 
> > So now I am finally coming to my question. This guy also talks 
about 
> > apparating as creating sort of wormholes tunnels through time and 
> > space, if we imagine space as some sort of elastic rubber. He 
says 
> > that Theory of relativity does not prevent the possibility of 
those 
> > tunnels in real life?
> 
> Potioncat:
> It's all hooey, Alla. There was a similar documentary (stretching 
the 
> word, here) about the science of Star Trek.
> 
> Does the book include creditionals for the different authors?
> 
> Potioncat--who knows almost nothing about relativity.
>
jkoney:
I actually read the first book of The Science of Star Trek. It was 
written by a physics professor (at either Case Western Reserve or 
Baldwin Wallace - both schools are near me) to try and introduce some 
real life physics into what was done on the show.

Even though he dumbed it down a bunch, it would still get past even 
basic knowldege (I took an advanced high school course). 

It was interesting but required alot of effort to follow anything 
more than a few pages without going back and re-reading. 





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 01:44:44 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 01:44:44 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnib8c+fdu9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnidic+45bh@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185893

jkoney wrote:
>
> jkoney:
> Again Snape singles out Harry [in HBP DADA] when no one else in the
class was making much progress.

Carol:
Of course. Harry is the Chosen One and Voldemort is back. As far as
Snape is concerned, Harry is the one who matters most. Even as he's
parrying Harry's spells near the end of HBP, he's yelling at him to
use Occlumency and nonverbal spells. But, of course, Harry thinks he's
evil, so the advice is wasted.


jkoney:
> You are still under the misguided impression that protecting Harry 
and putting down/embarrassing Harry are mutually exclusive.

Carol:
I'm not misguided. Please don't make personal statements about other
posters. I didn't say that Snape didn't enjoy Harry's embarrassment. I
said that embarrassing Harry was not his purpose in pairing Harry and
Draco. You suggest that he should have been paired with Ron. I take it
you've forgotten that Ron's wand is broken. Putting Harry and Draco
together puts Harry with an opponent who can bvery nearly match
him--the best way to learn, IMO.

Carol, who has already presented her arguments and has nothing more to
say on this matter
 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 03:14:33 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 03:14:33 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and Stoicism
Message-ID: <gniiqp+io9l@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185894

Alla:

So I figure I will pick another book from my Hary Potter shelf.
 Please bear with me the point about Potterverse will be in the end, 
but please be assured that I will ask canon question and I want to 
discuss canon, and am not planning on off topic conversation if one 
ever to happen. :-)

This was actually one of the very few books about Harry Potter that I 
liked well enough when I read it first time around. The book is 
called "The Wisdom of Harry Potter" by Edmund Kern.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
/1591021332/qid=1092357769/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-6646421-
2123969?v=glance&s=books&n=507846.

I actually thought that it sheds some light on HP books, but now when 
I am skimming through it, some points do feel stretched, of course 
the fact that he was also writing when canon was incomplete makes a 
difference. But I digress.

Among many arguments this book makes is that JKR often shows the 
virtues of stoicism, give or take in her good characters.

For those who are unfamiliar with stoics here are very basics from 
Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism

And let me quote the first paragraph:

Stoicism was a school of Hellenistic philosophy founded in Athens by 
Zeno of Citium in the early third century BCE. The stoics considered 
passionate emotions to be the result of errors in judgment, and that 
a sage, or person of "moral and intellectual perfection," would not 
have such emotions.[1] Stoics were concerned with the active 
relationship between cosmic determinism and human freedom, and the 
belief that it is virtuous to maintain a will (called prohairesis) 
that is in accord with nature.


I learned about Stoics briefly in my course of Greek roman history 
and in the philosophy for beginners, heh and actually to me this 
paragraph pretty much summarises the essense of stoicism as I 
understood it. I always think of Stoics as somebody who exercised 
restraint, for whom emotions were bad and intellect was good, etc.

I know, it is simplified to the extreme, but just saying what stoics 
mean to me.

Anyway back to Potterverse, as I said Kern argues that among other 
things Rowling shows virtues of stoicism. Do you guys agree or 
disagree and why?

I mean, I would totally say that in some ways Dumbledore is very very 
stoic - restraint in everything, emotions totally ARE bad, that he 
did not want to feel anything for Harry, etc.

It actually makes sense to me that Dumbledore as stoicist if he is, 
would have restrained himself from ever having a love life too.

But I mean, if I understood Kern correctly, then books should show 
that emotions can be destructive in the major way. And we saw it 
several times, but I would say not in a major way (IMO of course). 
Like we see Peter being scared and letting the fear overcome him and 
betray his friends, in fact we see Marauders' friendship being torn 
apart by conflicting emotions, no?

But at the same time we have that Love being major theme, and of 
course sacrifice, etc. Now I do not think that books having major 
christian themes would have contradicted characters showing stoicism 
virtues, etc, but isn't sacrificial love especially being shown as a 
good thing and nothing to be restrained of, but in fact cultivated 
etc?

Thoughts?

Alla




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 04:27:37 2009
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 04:27:37 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnib8c+fdu9@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnin3p+b41s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185895


> jkoney:
> [Snape] can still be "protecting" Harry and be up to something. Such 
as 
> having an advanced spell that he doesn't know cast at him, making him 
> look foolish in front of the rest of the school. 
> 

Annemehr:
Snape certainly was up to something.

Supposedly, Draco was supposed to cast a spell *at Harry,* who would 
try to block it with Protego.  And it wouldn't really have mattered how 
advanced the spell was (aside from an AK), if only Harry knew how to 
cast Protego.

But Snape told Draco not to cast a spell at Harry, but to conjure a 
snake instead.  As far as we know, Protego doesn't protect you from 
animals.




From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 17:18:30 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:18:30 -0000
Subject: Harry Potter and Stoicism
In-Reply-To: <gniiqp+io9l@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnk496+m6hj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185896

Alla wrote:
<snip>
> Among many arguments this book makes is that JKR often shows the 
> virtues of stoicism, give or take in her good characters.
<snip>

> Anyway back to Potterverse, as I said Kern argues that among other
things Rowling shows virtues of stoicism. Do you guys agree or 
disagree and why?
> 
> I mean, I would totally say that in some ways Dumbledore is very
very stoic - restraint in everything, emotions totally ARE bad, that
he did not want to feel anything for Harry, etc.
> 
> It actually makes sense to me that Dumbledore as stoicist if he is,
would have restrained himself from ever having a love life too.
> 
> But I mean, if I understood Kern correctly, then books should show
that emotions can be destructive in the major way. And we saw it 
several times, but I would say not in a major way (IMO of course).
Like we see Peter being scared and letting the fear overcome him and
betray his friends, in fact we see Marauders' friendship being torn 
apart by conflicting emotions, no?
> 
> But at the same time we have that Love being major theme, and of 
course sacrifice, etc. Now I do not think that books having major
christian themes would have contradicted characters showing stoicism
virtues, etc, but isn't sacrificial love especially being shown as a 
good thing and nothing to be restrained of, but in fact cultivated
etc? <snip>

Carol responds:

Interesting topic, Alla. I think, first, that critics who wrote about
the HP series before all the books are out were basing their
conclusions on insufficient evidence. I can see why someone reading,
say, GoF or OoP might think that, for Rowling, Stoicism as epitomized
by Dumbledore was the ultimate wisdom, but I think that most of us see
him as less wise and less good post-DH than we did before. His
attachment to Gindelwald was certainly an error in judgment, but only
because Grindelwald was the wrong person and he should have felt a
stronger affection--familial love--for his younger brother and sister.
The bit of love he feels for Harry is almost the only quality that
humanizes him as an old man--that and his deceptively twinkly sense of
humor.

I agree with you that Love, particularly Harry's sacrificial love, is
contrary to Stoicism (and thematically tied to Christianity). Harry's
ability to feel and suffer enables him to empathize with others, even
Snape. He does overcome anger and the desire for revenge, but that's
not the same as eliminating the passions altogether. Love enables
Snape to find redemption; it effectively neutralizes the Malfoys,
turning them away from Voldemort without making them exactly good; it
saves Harry in the first place (Snape's love for Lily makes possible
her self-sacrifice, which would otherwise be just another planned
death; that self-sacrifice in turn provides the ancient Love magic
that protects Harry in various ways throughout the books, from the
original rebounded AK to the drop of blood that enables him to return
from King's Cross.) Love, sometimes combined with anger, motivates the
combatants in the Battle of Hogwarts. Percy returns to fight alongside
his family, familial love proving stronger than pride. Molly fights
(and kills) to protect her daughter after losing a son. And so on.

The other supreme virtue for JKR is clearly courage, which is not the
same as calm, level-headed fearlessness but also not the same as
adolescent recklessness. It's knowing the danger that you face and
facing it willingly, overcoming fear but nevertheless still feeling
it. We see that sort of courage with Lily telling Voldemort to kill
her instead, with Ron facing the spiders in CoS, with Snape facing
mortal peril every time he lies to Voldemort, and, especially, with
Harry in "The Forest Again" walking to meet his death at Voldemort's
hands.

In contrast, we see Dumbledore calmly planning his own death. We do
see the kind of courage I'm talking about when he forces himself to
drink the terrible potion in the cave, but the scene on the tower is
mostly Stoicism. "Severus, please!" reveals desperation, but it's not
fear for himself, it's fear that his plan, which has already gone
partially astray with Draco's Expelliarmus, will fail altogether. If
he were wholly stoic, perhaps he wouldn't have cared so much. He would
have accepted Voldemort's victory as inevitable, a burden that the WW
must stoically bear.

Please note that I'm thinking as I type and not presenting reasoned
arguments. I would say, though, that based on your post rather than
Kern's book, which I haven't read, that I tentatively disagree with
Kern's conclusions.

Carol, who thinks that Ravenclaw would be the focus of the books if
JKR were advocating Stoicism (Luna as Stoic, anyone?)







From bruce_alan_wilson at verizon.net  Thu Feb 19 14:23:30 2009
From: bruce_alan_wilson at verizon.net (Bruce Alan Wilson)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 09:23:30 -0500
Subject: Harry Potter and Stoicism
Message-ID: <E4FAFB3133BA4A738C0AB7F17D2B65C1@d600xpp>

No: HPFGUIDX 185897

I did my undergraduate degree from the university where Prof. Kern teaches, and indeed took a couple of classes from him.  I have corresponded with him about his book, and he tells me that he is working on a revised edition in light of the completed canon.

BAW



From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 18:22:13 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:22:13 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnin3p+b41s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnk80l+isnj@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185898

Annemehr wrote:
> Snape certainly was up to something.
> 
> Supposedly, Draco was supposed to cast a spell *at Harry,* who would
try to block it with Protego.  And it wouldn't really have mattered
how advanced the spell was (aside from an AK), if only Harry knew how
to cast Protego.
> 
> But Snape told Draco not to cast a spell at Harry, but to conjure a
 snake instead.  As far as we know, Protego doesn't protect you from
animals.
>
Carol responds:
Protego is a Shield Charm that "cast[s] a temporary invisible wall
around [the caster] to protect him from minor curses" (GoF 608), which
is all that the twelve-year-old Draco would be capable of casting.
We know that it works against Legilimens, which is not a "minor curse"
but a mind-reading spell, and in that instance, the spell rebounds on
the caster, so that Snape's own memories are revealed. 

The Ministry recommends it as a defense against the Death Eaters
(though it won't work against Unforgiveables). That the barrier
created by Protego does more than block the "minor to moderate hexes
and jinxes" mentioned by the Twins in connection with their Shield
Cloaks and Shield Hats (HBP Am. ed. 119) is shown when Harry casts a
Protego to protect Ron from Hermione in DH: 

"'Protego!' The invisible shield erupted between Ron and Hermione. the
force of it knocked her backward onto the floor. . . . 'I knew you
weren't dead,' bellowed Ron, . . . approaching as close as he could
with the Shield Charm between them" (DH Am. ed. 580-81).

If neither Hermione nor Ron can get through the conjured wall between
them, a conjured snake could not get through the conjured wall around
Harry that would have been created had Lockhart told him how to cast a
Protego.

Carol, wondering what Annemehr thinks that Snape was "up to" given
that we know he was protecting Harry




From jkoney65 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 20 00:52:22 2009
From: jkoney65 at yahoo.com (jkoney65)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 00:52:22 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnin3p+b41s@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnkus6+j7h0@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185899

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > jkoney:
> > [Snape] can still be "protecting" Harry and be up to something. 
Such 
> as 
> > having an advanced spell that he doesn't know cast at him, making 
him 
> > look foolish in front of the rest of the school. 
> > 
> 
> Annemehr:
> Snape certainly was up to something.
> 
> Supposedly, Draco was supposed to cast a spell *at Harry,* who 
would 
> try to block it with Protego.  And it wouldn't really have mattered 
how 
> advanced the spell was (aside from an AK), if only Harry knew how 
to 
> cast Protego.
> 
> But Snape told Draco not to cast a spell at Harry, but to conjure a 
> snake instead.  As far as we know, Protego doesn't protect you from 
> animals.
>
jkoney:
Yes, the instructors certainly failed to demonstrate how to cast 
Protego.

What they should have done is demonstrate the spell and then review 
it with the students to make sure everyone had an idea of what it 
was. Then if they wanted a pair of students to demonstrate whether 
they learned it or not, the students would have least had a chance. 
Instead Harry is left with a bumbling Lockhart and no instruction. 
That is not the way to teach students, unless you want them to fail.










From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Feb 20 04:36:27 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 04:36:27 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnkus6+j7h0@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnlc0b+2kio@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185900


> jkoney:
> Yes, the instructors certainly failed to demonstrate how to cast 
> Protego.
> 
> What they should have done is demonstrate the spell and then review 
> it with the students to make sure everyone had an idea of what it 
> was. Then if they wanted a pair of students to demonstrate whether 
> they learned it or not, the students would have least had a chance. 
> Instead Harry is left with a bumbling Lockhart and no instruction. 
> That is not the way to teach students, unless you want them to fail.


Potioncat:
Lockhart was the DADA instructor. He should have had a plan. Snape was 
just supposed to be helping out. Whose idea was that any way? 

I jut read over the chapter and was disappointed to discover that some 
of my favorite lines of dialogue are different from TMTMNBN...and that 
I prefer the non-canon version. 

And what about Snape's Expelliarmus? It blasted Lockhart across the 
room. I guess Snape really wanted to separate Lockhart from his wand.





From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 20 05:00:49 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 05:00:49 -0000
Subject: First lesson /Dueling club
In-Reply-To: <gnlc0b+2kio@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnlde1+tkn7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185901

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:

> And what about Snape's Expelliarmus? It blasted Lockhart across the 
> room. I guess Snape really wanted to separate Lockhart from his wand.


zanooda:

LOL! I think that Snape is just much more magically powerful than
Lockhart is :-). Lockhart is not much of a wizard, so even Harry's
Expelliarmus at the end of the book blasted him backward. Or maybe you
are right and emotions count. Snape obviously hates incompetence, and
hearing things like "you'll still have your Potions master when I'm
through with him" would anger him even more :-)! At the end of the
book Harry is also furious at Lockhart for being such a coward and a
fake, so there is a lot of emotion there as well.





From bboyminn at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 20 07:24:22 2009
From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 07:24:22 -0000
Subject: Apparating and the Theory of Relativity OR Dimensional Travel
In-Reply-To: <888544.46937.qm@web87007.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gnllr6+m08j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185902

---  KEN ADAMS <kenadams705 at ...> wrote:
>
> Alla:
> <SNIP>
> I mean, I know very little about theory of relativity besides
> general definition, so can somebody with more scientific mind
> explain to me how the Apparating is not in contradiction with
> it?
> 
> KEN:
> ...
> It seems to me that apparition involves the disappearance from
> one place and the instantaneous appearance somewhere else. ...
> This means that speeds must be close to those of light. From 
>what I know of the theory of relativity which is very incomplete,
> to be generous. This is impossible.
>
> KEN
>

bboyminn:

Ah...but that is the flaw in your thinking, the belief that it
happens instantaneously. I does not. When Harry Apparates, he
perceives time passing. Because you can't seem to breath 
while apparating, there is a time and distance limit to it
based on how long you can hold your breath.

When Harry Side-Along Apparates with Dumbledore, it seems a 
few times that he is at the limit of how long he can hold his
breath. So, I estimate that you can Apparate at a speed of
about 300 miles per minute, which is a mere 18,000 mile per
hour in real time. OK, that's fast, but it is not any where
near the speed of light. 

Notice other magical means of transportation also have the
perception of time. When they portkey to the World Cup,
Harry describes the sensation and the clear passage of time.
In this case, I estimate about the same speed; 300 miles
per minute. Though the sense of suffocation isn't there.

In the Floo Network, Harry has time to see fireplaces passing
by, so clearly time passes. Again, I'm thinking roughly
300 miles per minute. (Just a guess.)

Brooms seem to fly in real time. But given the description
of the Firebolt going zero to 100 mph in about 7 seconds, I
estimate a top speed of 150 mph or possibly more. Though
not supported by the books, I've speculated that brooms have
some type of wind screen charm to control the wind when 
riding. Perhaps a small cone in front of the broom that
expands as speed increases. Still it would be like the 
windscreen on a motorcycle, it would help block the wind
but not stop it completely. So, you would still have the
sensation of wind, speed, and cold. 

Next we have the Thestrals. They seem to fly at normal speed,
but they got to London from Hogwarts awefully fast; not super
fast, but faster than real time.  

So, how does magic transport actually work? 

For Apparation, the Worm Hole idea might have some merit. 
Whether you believe in worm holes or not, and whether you
understand them or not, science theoretically recognizes that
they can exist and that they might work as described. 

The magic is not that worm holes exist, but that you can
create one spontaneously by nothing more than force of will. 

But I prefer a dimensional aspect to magical travel because it
explains all forms of travel. Multiple dimensions is also a
scientific theory that speculates that likely there are many
parallel dimensions to our own. So, I speculate that there is a
magical dimension or magical domain, and all magic is, is the
ability to draw from that other dimension.

When you Apparate, Portkey, or Floo, you are drawing on the
power of and perhaps even traveling fully or partly within 
the magical dimension. Keep in mind, that other dimension 
aren't necessarily in some other place. Some speculate that
they are all around us. That other dimensions are merged with 
our own, uniformly dispersed through the world we know. Yet
we don't see them because, that are time and space shifted 
from our own dimension. 

I speculate this is also how Therstral fly in apparent real
time, yet travel faster than real time. By natural instinctual
magic, Thestrals, several times a second, draw on the magical
dimension, perhaps even pass into it, and in those magical
time slices, fly faster than is physically possible. To the
naked eye, we do not see this slipping in and out of the 
magical domain, yet the result is much faster than real
time travel. Because of magic, there is a difference between
apparent speed and actual speed; actual speed being 
substantially higher that apparent speed.

Though, not a lot faster. Part of their travel is still truly
in real time. In this case, I'm guessing 300 to 500 mph at 
full speed. However, because there is no perception of the
magical domain as you travel though it, the apparent speed to
the rider is probably 80 to 100 mph top speed. 

Again, it doesn't matter that you understand worm holes or
dimensional travel, only know that science has predicted that
these things might be possible. 

Personally, I favor dimensional or domain shift travel over
worm holes.

Steve/bluewizard





From danjerri at madisoncounty.net  Fri Feb 20 14:34:44 2009
From: danjerri at madisoncounty.net (Jerri&Dan Chase)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 08:34:44 -0600
Subject: Harry Potter and Stoicism
In-Reply-To: <1235042425.2859.29221.m46@yahoogroups.com>
References: <1235042425.2859.29221.m46@yahoogroups.com>
Message-ID: <0CB156D6E87442D497ECF0D753705067@JerriPC>

No: HPFGUIDX 185903


> This was actually one of the very few books about Harry Potter that I
> liked well enough when I read it first time around. The book is
> called "The Wisdom of Harry Potter" by Edmund Kern.
> Alla


I read this book some years ago, between books 5 and 6 I believe.  I got it 
from the library and so don't own a copy to refer to, but as I recall, while 
mentioning classic Stoicism he was comparing HP more to "neo-Stoicism".  I 
would need to read the book again, I thought he had some points that seemed 
valid.  As I recall his comments on neo-Stoicism (and I may have the word 
wrong, going from memory) it was more concerned with actions than with the 
complete removal of emotion from classical Stoicism.  One part of the ideal 
was to act as if you weren't being hurt.

Lots of examples in the books:  "Ignore it" by Harry and/or Hermione at 
various points in time.  Harry's life with the Dursleys.  Snape's entire 
life.  Harry broke with this ideal in OoP, especially at the end, but then V 
was influencing his mind most of the book.

Again, this is working from memory, and rather stale memory at that.  I had 
actually been planning to find a copy again and re-read, but as someone on 
list says a new version, taking all 7 books into account is being prepared, 
I suppose I will wait.

Jerri





From kenadams705 at btinternet.com  Fri Feb 20 11:51:35 2009
From: kenadams705 at btinternet.com (KEN ADAMS)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:51:35 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apparating and the Theory of Relativity OR Dimensional Travel
In-Reply-To: <gnllr6+m08j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <837023.49258.qm@web87011.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185904

> KEN:
> ...
> It seems to me that apparition involves the disappearance from
> one place and the instantaneous appearance somewhere else. ...
> This means that speeds must be close to those of light. From
>what I know of the theory of relativity which is very incomplete,
> to be generous. This is impossible.


bboyminn:
Ah...but that is the flaw in your thinking, the belief that it
happens instantaneously. I does not. When Harry Apparates, he
perceives time passing. Because you can't seem to breath
while apparating, there is a time and distance limit to it
based on how long you can hold your breath.
...snip...

Ken:
I agree that your calculations seem entirely reasonable and hugely within the speed of light. Since the question concerned apparition, my reply did not concern itself with portkeys, or floo transport, or even thestrals. I think consideration of these adds value to the discussion.
Thank you Steve.
KEN




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 20 21:53:47 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 21:53:47 -0000
Subject: Apparating and the Theory of Relativity OR Dimensional Travel
In-Reply-To: <gnllr6+m08j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnn8pb+e260@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185905

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:
  
> Personally, I favor dimensional or domain shift travel over
> worm holes.


zanooda:

I would agree with you about the Floo network and Portkeys, but
Apparition seems different to me. It's like Alla said, all this
darkness and squeezing through a rubber tube doesn't make you think of
dimensional travel (not that I ever experienced one :-)), but of being
forced through some very narrow passage (kinda like a child being
born, I suppose :-)). When Harry had to Apparate twice in a row
without a chance to take a breath in between (escape from the MoM in
DH) he nearly suffocated and felt as if his lungs had flattened. 

It would be logical if all magical travel was based on the same
principle, but it just doesn't seem the case (IMO). Interesting though
that all types of magical travel involve some kind of spinning motion
(I'm not talking about brooms, Thestrals or flying carpets, cars and
bikes here, of course :-)). People spin in the fireplaces, and in the
last book Harry was "spinning uncontrollably" while traveling via a
Portkey. Even to Apparate, you need to turn on the spot. I wonder,
what this is all about ... :-).




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 21 04:53:54 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 04:53:54 -0000
Subject: John Granger "Looking for God in Harry Potter"/ Random thoughts about CH 1-3
Message-ID: <gno1d2+n2g8@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185906

http://www.amazon.com/Looking-Harry-Potter-John-Granger/dp/1414300913


I have a guess that more people may have read this book than the 
others. I of course heard about John Granger before, read some 
excerpts, but have never read this book or any of the others he wrote 
about Harry. I have had this book for some time though, so I 
figured,  may as well, and if it will be too over the head for me, 
well, I can always stop.

Here is his website for those who is interested:

http://hogwartsprofessor.com/


I mean, to me the books had never been the allegory of the Bible, but 
always had strong Christian influence to it and I mean, obviously the 
ending only strengthened it for me.

So, I started the book, in the first two chapters he argues how 
Christians should not be afraid of the magic in the books and how it 
is different from occult magic. I mean I understand his intentions, 
but the thought of the audience who needs to be convinced that the 
fictional magic, is well, not a real magic, makes me want to slap 
this audience real hard. Again, nothing against the author, really, I 
understand to whom he is talking in those introductory chapters.

Now, chapter 3 really made me wonder, because he is talking about 
Hero journey as applicable to Harry Potter books. Now, I must say 
that any possible misinterpretation of his words is completely my 
fault, so forgive me in advance; I cannot put in my opinion in every 
sentence here. He is basically saying that it is a classic hero 
journey with the Christ like twist. Here is how he maps the elements 
of the journey:

Start, escape, mystery, crisis, descent, combat, Christ symbols, 
return, revelation and finish.

So, he is basically saying that the difference from Classical journey 
is that heroes of the past did not do the biggest battles of the 
journey in the underground, but outside.

And Harry always does do it in the underground (Graveyard is 
literally not one, but it is a place of the dead, so I agree that it 
can count as one) and he sort of dies and come back with the help of 
Christ symbols.

I mean, I agree that Harry literally or figuratively almost dies, but 
didn't the battles often occur in the underground for other heroes as 
well?

Hm, I was doing a quick search to find the elements of the classic 
journey and could not, so if anybody has them, please feel free to 
post.

Anyways, Granger lists as Christ symbols  in order : Philosopher's 
stone, Phoenix, Stag, Phoenix song, Phoenix swallowing death curse.

This is all lovely, and sure I can see how Christ symbols **help** 
Harry, but when Granger starts to argue this. "And in case you think 
this is just a "great comeback" rather  than a resurrection 
reference, please note that Harry never saves himself but is always 
saved by a symbol of Christ or by love" ? p.22 of "Looking for God in 
Harry Potter". And I am thinking that this is a fine example of 
stretching the point to the extreme to fit your argument. Just stop 
after saying that those elements **help** Harry, because it is 
extremely bizarre to me to read that Stag saves Harry in PoA, and not 
Harry himself who saw himself **casting said Stag** and was finally 
able to do it.  And  Harry's love for Sirius that saved him from 
possession in OOP ? um, that IS Harry himself, is it not?

I am intrigued by this book for sure, I do think it talks about the 
books more than many other HP books I read, but we shall see if I 
like it when I am done.

I will be back to talk about other chapters.





From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 21 05:16:56 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 05:16:56 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
Message-ID: <gno2o8+7pvt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185907

Heh, okay. So basically imagine that you are single if you are not, and 
obviously as you are, you are and if there is a character from HP 
series you feel would be great husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend 
material, please tell us and explain why **with canon examples** please.

It is I would say a variable on praise the character game, but praise 
for very specific qualities. If you think that character is someone you 
would like to dream about, but your parents would not have approve, 
that does not count :-)

No, I am not excluding Snape, but again, please tell us why in your 
view he would be great husband/boyfriend, somebody good for long term 
relationship and/or marriage.

:-)

Alla




From annemehr at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 21 05:26:11 2009
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 05:26:11 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnk80l+isnj@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gno39j+212n@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185908

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Annemehr wrote:
<snip>
>  As far as we know, Protego doesn't protect you from
> animals.
> >


> Carol responds:
> Protego is a Shield Charm that "cast[s] a temporary invisible wall
> around [the caster] to protect him from minor curses" (GoF 608), 
<snip>


Annemehr:
Yes, that's what I was thinking of, when I considered the effect of 
the charm - a protection from curses.

Carol:
<snip>
> That the barrier
> created by Protego does more than block the "minor to moderate hexes
> and jinxes" mentioned by the Twins in connection with their Shield
> Cloaks and Shield Hats (HBP Am. ed. 119) is shown when Harry casts a
> Protego to protect Ron from Hermione in DH: 
> 
> "'Protego!' The invisible shield erupted between Ron and Hermione. 
the
> force of it knocked her backward onto the floor. . . . 'I knew you
> weren't dead,' bellowed Ron, . . . approaching as close as he could
> with the Shield Charm between them" (DH Am. ed. 580-81).
> 
> If neither Hermione nor Ron can get through the conjured wall 
between
> them, a conjured snake could not get through the conjured wall 
around
> Harry that would have been created had Lockhart told him how to 
cast a
> Protego.


Annemehr:
I completely forgot about that bit in DH.  Interesting.

So, I wonder if Snape could have used it to shield himself from 
Buckbeak at the end of HBP - or, can't you use it when you are 
moving, because then you'd just run into your own wall?  Or would it 
move along with you?  And I suppose it'd be against the rules to use 
it in Quidditch, where at least the keeper would find it very useful.


> 
> Carol, wondering what Annemehr thinks that Snape was "up to" given
> that we know he was protecting Harry
>

Annemehr:
Well, the scene just reads that way to me.  I am sure Snape noticed 
that Draco by this point could do some jinxes, e.g. the frying-pan 
one he'd just done, and that Harry hadn't managed to learn Protego 
from Lockhart.  So why would he feel the need to suggest one 
particular spell?

I am also pretty sure that Snape knew that Draco already knew how to 
do Serpensortia, because I can't believe he'd set Draco up there with 
only the *name* of a brand-new spell whispered in his ear, to go with 
against Harry.

It's completely possible that he taught Draco the spell himself, in 
anticipation of having him set the snake on Harry at the club 
meeting.  Because, if it was supposed to be a big coincidence that 
Draco just *happened* to send a snake at Harry the parselmouth, then 
Snape's whispered instructions to Draco are absolutely superfluous to 
the scene.

I.E., if it were only an accident that Harry faced a snake rather 
than something else, what difference would it make whose idea it was?

So, what was he up to?

If he was only trying to humiliate Harry, or to deflate his ego a bit 
(after that flying-car incident, you know), then any jinx would have 
sufficed, since Harry didn't know Protego.

The only thing that makes sense is that he was trying a little 
experiment to see whether he could evoke Parseltongue in Harry (in 
connection with Dumbledore's plan). Because, DD knew *who* was 
opening the Chamber; it was Tom Riddle all the time.  And Harry was 
someone with a connection to Riddle.

Annemehr






From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 21 08:16:30 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 08:16:30 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet par
In-Reply-To: <gno2o8+7pvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnod8u+epa5@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185909

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Heh, okay. So basically imagine that you are single if you are not, and 
> obviously as you are, you are and if there is a character from HP 
> series you feel would be great husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend 
> material, please tell us and explain why **with canon examples** please.
> 
> It is I would say a variable on praise the character game, but praise 
> for very specific qualities. If you think that character is someone you 
> would like to dream about, but your parents would not have approve, 
> that does not count :-)
> 
> No, I am not excluding Snape, but again, please tell us why in your 
> view he would be great husband/boyfriend, somebody good for long term 
> relationship and/or marriage.
> 
> :-)
> 
> Alla

Montavilla47:

So simple. Percy Weasley.  He wears glasses, which I find very attractive. 
He's ambitious.  He's smart.  He has a good job.  And he knows how to 
act around  potential parents-in-law (i.e., how to suck up to people).  

And hey, he knows up how to stand up to his own family, which might 
come in handy if I decided I didn't *want* to spend Christmas hangiing
out at the Burrow.



>






From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 21 16:48:09 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 16:48:09 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gno39j+212n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnpb89+3moi@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185910

> Annemehr
> It's completely possible that he taught Draco the spell himself, in 
> anticipation of having him set the snake on Harry at the club 
> meeting.  Because, if it was supposed to be a big coincidence that 
> Draco just *happened* to send a snake at Harry the parselmouth, then 
> Snape's whispered instructions to Draco are absolutely superfluous to 
> the scene.
> 
> I.E., if it were only an accident that Harry faced a snake rather 
> than something else, what difference would it make whose idea it was?
> 
> So, what was he up to?
> 
> If he was only trying to humiliate Harry, or to deflate his ego a bit 
> (after that flying-car incident, you know), then any jinx would have 
> sufficed, since Harry didn't know Protego.
> 
> The only thing that makes sense is that he was trying a little 
> experiment to see whether he could evoke Parseltongue in Harry (in 
> connection with Dumbledore's plan). Because, DD knew *who* was 
> opening the Chamber; it was Tom Riddle all the time.  And Harry was 
> someone with a connection to Riddle.
> 

Montavilla47:
Interesting, Annemehr.  My own (entirely unsupported) theory is that
Serpentsoria is a spell that Slytherin firsties are traditionally taught by
older students because it's a cool way to conjure up the House Mascot.

Of course, they'd all know how to get rid of it, too.  

But, you're right.  Why bother to have Snape whisper instructions to
Draco here?  Just to be a jerk?   Well, okay, I can buy that (especially
after that House cup switcheroo the previous year) that Snape just
wants to have *his* Slytherin student show up the Gryffindor golden
boy.  But it's more fun to think Snape was doing a bit of sleuthing for
Dumbledore.

<g>




From sherriola at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 16:57:55 2009
From: sherriola at gmail.com (Sherry Gomes)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 08:57:55 -0800
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet par
In-Reply-To: <gnod8u+epa5@eGroups.com>
References: <gno2o8+7pvt@eGroups.com> <gnod8u+epa5@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <043FBA45FF374B7ABCDA9AB409D34124@Pensieve>

No: HPFGUIDX 185911

Montavilla47:

So simple. Percy Weasley.  He wears glasses, which I find very attractive. 
He's ambitious.  He's smart.  He has a good job.  And he knows how to act
around  potential parents-in-law (i.e., how to suck up to people).  

And hey, he knows up how to stand up to his own family, which might come in
handy if I decided I didn't *want* to spend Christmas hangiing out at the
Burrow.



Sherry now:
Though I don't like Percy much, in terms of just not someone that would
interest me as a friend or sweetheart, he has another quality that I admire
and would be good in presenting him to family, mine at least.  He is very
loyal when it counts and really does care about his family.  His reactions
to Ginny being taken into the Chamber and to Ron in the second task, had me
convinced throughout the series that he was not going to turn out to be
dark.  In spite of the arguments with his family, in the end, when it
mattered most, he was there, fighting with them and for them.  I think of
Percy as the character that I didn't like much but respected very, very
much!  In fact, recently, when I retired my guide dog and was waiting to
begin training with my successor dog and had to buy a white cane to continue
to get around independently, I named it Percy.  My explanation was that like
the character of Percy Weasley, I don't like my cane much, but I sure do
respect it!  LOL.

Sherry




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 21 17:14:16 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:14:16 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet par
In-Reply-To: <043FBA45FF374B7ABCDA9AB409D34124@Pensieve>
Message-ID: <gnpcp8+9mu7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185912

> Sherry now:
> Though I don't like Percy much, in terms of just not someone that 
would
> interest me as a friend or sweetheart, he has another quality that 
I admire
> and would be good in presenting him to family, mine at least.  He 
is very
> loyal when it counts and really does care about his family.  <SNIP>

Alla:

Heee, I just wanted to clarify the parameters for choosing the 
character. Yes, it has to be somebody whom your family would approve 
of, for sure, so you would need to explain him as respectable 
candidate, HOWEVER, if you at the same time like him, it is even more 
wonderful.

What I am trying to say is that if you think of the character ONLY as 
a bad boy/girl, that character cannot be here, but if you can show us 
that he can be BOTH - bad boy with the heart of gold or something 
like that AND good husband, more power to you, you know?

Two do not have to be mutually exclusive, it is just there needs to 
be something to show your family, your family does not need to know 
everything lol.

Alla




From catlady at wicca.net  Sat Feb 21 21:20:54 2009
From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston))
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:20:54 -0000
Subject: Snape's first day of class /  the Duelling Club / Alla's discussion question
Message-ID: <gnpr7m+mkhb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185913

Zara wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185859>:

<< Hermione had read a sixth year text and picked up a bit of sixth
year DADA curriculum, presumably because she planned to impress
Slughorn with her knowledge in DADA. >>

No, she read all her textbooks before the school year started because
an unread book is an irresistible temptation, like a wrapped Xmas gift
or a piece of chocolate. The one that Snape accused her of quoting
(The Standard Book of Spells, Grade 6) was the Charms textbook, not
the DADA textbook.

Marion Ros wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185798>:

<< First Potions lesson, when Snape keeps a whole classroom
mesmerized, Harry and Ron pull faces at each other (they look at each
other and pull up their eyebrows, which, in British mime means 'who is
this weirdo?'). >>

To which Alla replied in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185799>:

<< So, the look that they give each other **after** Snape's speech on
page 137 of my book (Harry and Ron exchanged looks with raised
eyebrows), which you interpret as who is this weirdo, I interpret as a
a surprise of the kid of why this teacher singled me out, >>

The context of the raised eyebrows, as Alla said, is:

<< "You are here to learn the subtle science and exact art of
potionmaking," he began. He spoke in barely more than a whisper, but
they caught every word -- like Professor McGonagall, Snape had the
gift of keeping a class silent without effort. "As there is little
foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is
magic. I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the
softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate
power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind,
ensnaring the senses.... I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew
glory, even stopper death -- if you aren't as big a bunch of
dunderheads as I usually have to teach."

More silence followed this little speech. Harry and Ron exchanged
looks with raised eyebrows. Hermione Granger was on the edge of her
seat and looked desperate to start proving that she wasn't a
dunderhead. >>

It seems to me that the raised eyebrows are only about Harry and Ron's
reaction to Snape's speech. After a speech like that, they may not
even *remember* that Snape snarked at Harry's name in the class roll.
And it is just *before* Snape calls 'Potter!' to ask questions.

It always seemed to me that Harry and Ron's reaction, as conveyed by
their eyebrows, was somewhere between 'This wizard *really* loves his
subject" and "Do you think it's *true* that he knows how to brew glory
and even stopper death? Wow!"

Thus, it seems to me that Harry would feel that he was being
particularly unfairly treated to be punished for not paying attention
when he was in fact paying intense attention, spiced with a half drop
of admiration.

I do not think it praiseworthy for a teacher to interpret intense
attention with even a shadow of admiration as being disrespect, much
less an attempt to disrupt the class. I do not think the teacher's
paranoia is the child's fault. 

By the way, just before the bit I quoted was << His eyes were black
like Hagrid's, but they had none of Hagrid's warmth. They were cold
and empty and made you think of dark tunnels. >>

Someone did an analysis of Snape's eyes and decided that many cases of
them looking like dark tunnels were when Snape was Legilimensing
Harry. If Snape was Legilimensing the whole class, he had less excuse
for mistaking attention for disrespect.

jkoney wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185899>:

<< Yes, the instructors certainly failed to demonstrate how to cast
Protego.

What they should have done is demonstrate the spell and then review it
with the students to make sure everyone had an idea of what it was.
Then if they wanted a pair of students to demonstrate whether they
learned it or not, the students would have least had a chance. Instead
Harry is left with a bumbling Lockhart and no instruction. That is not
the way to teach students, unless you want them to fail. >>

That's because Lockhart was a lousy teacher. But the Duelling Club was
his event and professional etiquette didn't let Snape outright
contradict him.

I always wonder just how delusional Lockhart himself was. Did he
believe he was actually a good teacher? 

He says he's going to do something, waves his wand, and neither has no
effect or only makes matters worse. He talks a lot of nonsense
supposed to make hearers think he's a genius, like:

Lockhart: "It was definitely a curse that killed her - probably the
Transmogrifian Torture - I've seen it used many times, so unlucky I
wasn't there, I know the very countercurse that would have saved her
......"

Dumbledore: "She's not dead, Argus," "She has been Petrified,"

Lockhart: "Ah! I thought so!" 

Does he really believe that his audience, supposedly impressed by his
first statement, won't notice that it is contradicted by his second
statement? Is that belief delusional, or is it just that Hogwarts
Castle somehow protects the characters from a constant low-level
Memory Charm he always casts on everyone near him?

Alla wrote in
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185907>:

<< Heh, okay. So basically imagine that you are single if you are not,
and obviously as you are, you are and if there is a character from HP
series you feel would be great husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend
material, please tell us and explain why **with canon examples** please.

No, I am not excluding Snape, but again, please tell us why in your
view he would be great husband/boyfriend, somebody good for long term
relationship and/or marriage. >>

The argument that Snape would have been a good husband for Lily would
be different from the argument that Snape would be a good husband for
someone else.




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Sat Feb 21 21:27:23 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kempermentor)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:27:23 -0000
Subject: John Granger "Looking for God in Harry Potter"/ Random thoughts about CH 1-3
In-Reply-To: <gno1d2+n2g8@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnprjr+dnaa@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185914

> Alla:
> This is all lovely, and sure I can see how Christ symbols **help** 
> Harry, but when Granger starts to argue... "And in case you think 
> this is just a "great comeback" rather  than a resurrection 
> reference, please note that Harry never saves himself but is always 
> saved by a symbol of Christ or by love" ? "Looking for God in 
> Harry Potter". And I am thinking that this is a fine example of 
> stretching the point to the extreme to fit your argument. Just stop 
> after saying that those elements **help** Harry, because it is 
> ... bizarre to me to read that Stag saves Harry in PoA, and not 
> Harry himself who saw himself **casting said Stag** and was finally 
> able to do it.  And Harry's love for Sirius that saved him from 
> possession in OOP ? um, that IS Harry himself, is it not?

Kemper now:
I can see the Stag (Christ figure ergo God figure) as saving Harry,
but probably not in the way Granger proposes.  I think it is the
literal rather than the figurative that Granger's title suggests.
Harry finds God in himself.  He (as Son) originally thought he saw his
dad (Father) casting the Stag (Holy Ghost/Spirit).  I do not mean to
imply that Harry is God, but that Harry found God within himself. 
Which is way different than finding God.  To me, that signifies
finding God outside of one's self which might be as close as a church
or as far away as the sky.

Harry's love is also Harry finding and, more importantly, embracing
God: given that 'God is love'. 

Just my (heretical?) thoughts.

Kemper





From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 21 21:32:23 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:32:23 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet par
In-Reply-To: <gnpcp8+9mu7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnprt7+4p2j@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185915

> Alla:
> 
> Heee, I just wanted to clarify the parameters for choosing the 
> character. Yes, it has to be somebody whom your family would approve 
> of, for sure, so you would need to explain him as respectable 
> candidate, HOWEVER, if you at the same time like him, it is even more 
> wonderful.
> 
> What I am trying to say is that if you think of the character ONLY as 
> a bad boy/girl, that character cannot be here, but if you can show us 
> that he can be BOTH - bad boy with the heart of gold or something 
> like that AND good husband, more power to you, you know?
> 
> Two do not have to be mutually exclusive, it is just there needs to 
> be something to show your family, your family does not need to know 
> everything lol.
> 
> Alla

Montavilla47:

I was thinking about Snape in terms of taking him home to my family--
and I think he would do pretty well.  My family tends to enjoy dry wit,
which he has.  They like to hear about interesting jobs--so they wouldn't
be bored when he talked about potions or D.A.D.A.  They wouldn't be
put off by black clothing or greasy hair--much.  They might be a put 
off by the teeth--but if his breath isn't bad, that isn't such a drawback.
Whether or not they would like the tattoo would probably depend on 
how well he pulled it off. For example, even the scuzziest tattoo works
if you have a good story about how you got it.

Of course, the racism would be off-putting.  But then, as long as none
of us turned him upside and pantsed him, he'd probably keep that 
trait in check.  And we're not really a turn-people-upside-down-and-
pants-them kind of family.







From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 21 23:11:13 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 23:11:13 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gno39j+212n@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnq1mh+kc29@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185916

Carol earlier:
> > That the barrier created by Protego does more than block the
"minor to moderate hexes and jinxes" mentioned by the Twins in
connection with their Shield Cloaks and Shield Hats (HBP Am. ed. 119)
is shown when Harry casts a Protego to protect Ron from Hermione in DH: 
<snip quote>
> > If neither Hermione nor Ron can get through the conjured wall 
between them, a conjured snake could not get through the conjured wall
around Harry that would have been created had Lockhart told him how to
cast a Protego.
> 
> 
> Annemehr:
> I completely forgot about that bit in DH.  Interesting.
> 
> So, I wonder if Snape could have used it to shield himself from 
Buckbeak at the end of HBP - or, can't you use it when you are 
moving, because then you'd just run into your own wall? <snip>

Carol responds:
I don't think you'd run into your own wall because you'd be running
away from the pursuing hippogriff. I think the main reason that snape
didn't use it was that he was keeping an eye on the gate, which was
close at hand. I'm trying to remember--did Harry use Protego against
any of the creatures in the TWT maze?
> 
> > Carol, wondering what Annemehr thinks that Snape was "up to" given
> that we know he was protecting Harry
> >
Annemehr:
<snip>
> 
> If he was only trying to humiliate Harry, or to deflate his ego a
bit (after that flying-car incident, you know), then any jinx would
have sufficed, since Harry didn't know Protego.
> 
> The only thing that makes sense is that he was trying a little
experiment to see whether he could evoke Parseltongue in Harry (in 
connection with Dumbledore's plan). Because, DD knew *who* was 
opening the Chamber; it was Tom Riddle all the time.  And Harry was
someone with a connection to Riddle.

Carol responds:
I see! So we're back to the suggestion I made earlier in this thread:

Carol earlier:
> > I'm not sure about the Serpensortia spell, but it *may* have been
Snape's way of testing to see whether Harry was a Parselmouth. It
certainly served that purpose whether it was his intention or not.
And Snape easily Vanished the snake before it could do any harm.

Carol again:
I abandoned that particular point because I couldn't think of any way
to support it. The Serpensortia looked to me primarily like a plot
device to allow Harry to speak Parseltongue and set up the suspicions
of him as the Heir of Slytherin, especially after the next Petrified
student just happens to be Justin Finch-Fletchley. Certainly, it's
clear from the beginning that Snape intends to Vanish the snake with
no harm to Harry. And, as you say, any old hex would do if he were
just trying to humiliate Harry. Why not cause him to sprout rabbit
ears or something? But the only piece of solid evidence I can find is
Snape'e expression after Harry starts speaking Parseltongue. Instead
of looking surprised or horrified, he looks "shrewd and calculating"
(CoS Am. ed. 193). He certainly could not have anticipated that
Lockhart would try to Vanish the snake, causing it to move angrily
toward a student. I wonder what he *did* expect--and whether he teally
thought that Harry might have been responsible for the attacks.

At any rate, whatever that scene was about, it wasn't humiliating
Harry. And, as others have pointed out, Snape isn't officially in
charge even though he steps in to pair off Harry and Draco rather than
Neville and Seamus and twice takes charge to clean up Lockhart's
messes ("Finite Incantatem" and Vanishing the snake).

What we don't know is whether Dumbledore asked him to "assist"
Lockhart or whether it was his own idea. I'm inclined to think that
it's the first. If only we could see inside that shrewd and
calculating mind!

Carol, wishing that Snape could have taught DADA all along with no
DADA curse (I know; there goes the plot)

But 




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 22 04:31:11 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 04:31:11 -0000
Subject: John Granger "Looking for God in Harry Potter"/ CH 4/ Alchemy
Message-ID: <gnqkef+o7qd@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185917

So in chapter 4 he argues that alchemical interpretation is very 
obvious as well and does not contradict christian signs, on the 
contrary it all goes together.

I mean I could always see this interpretation, three stages - Black, 
White, Red, but I do wonder - the fact that Hagrid did not die in the 
last book, doesn't it make a massive blow into alchemical 
interpretation? Sort of big OOOPS? I should I think wonder on Hogwarts 
professor and check out what John Granger thinks about that one day.

Although I suppose since he argues that Harry passes through three 
stages of Alchemy in every book, not one stage, I guess it could still 
stand as valid one for me.

Alla




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 22 04:57:58 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 04:57:58 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet par
In-Reply-To: <gnprt7+4p2j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnqm0m+g1bm@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185918

> Montavilla47:
> 
> I was thinking about Snape in terms of taking him home to my family-
-
> and I think he would do pretty well.  <SNIP>

Alla:

You know, your lovely presentation almost convinced me that if Snape 
does as you say he will be able to get approval from your parents, 
almost...

I mean there is a definite disagreement about one point, as to Snape 
being able to keep his racism in check, but I want to try to keep 
this thread fairly light hearted, so I will ask about another point, 
which I am not sure that I even saw in your presentation.

Would your parents be approving of the guy who is now officially 
jobless even if he is really working for Dumbledore and whose real 
job requirements may include killing people if the real boss asks and 
killing people again if fake boss asks?

Wouldn't they simply be concerned that his job is too dangerous?

Again, please keep in mind that I am playing a hypothetical where you 
**need** your parents approval and where guy (or girl) must pass it, 
I am of course not saying that anybody needs to get their parents' 
approval if they do not want to.

Although now that I am thinking about it, maybe you are going to 
bring him to your family while he is still teaching, because if we 
get really specific, he is now dead, lol. If  we are talking about 
the time when he is still teaching, I think if he can sticks to your 
way of presenting his charming personality he just may be able to do 
it.

Catlady:
<SNIP>
The argument that Snape would have been a good husband for Lily would
be different from the argument that Snape would be a good husband for
someone else.
<SNIP>

Alla:

I am afraid I do not understand this as answer to my hypothetical. I 
do not believe I ever asked about Snape as good husband to Lily.





From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com  Sun Feb 22 17:57:32 2009
From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com)
Date: 22 Feb 2009 17:57:32 -0000
Subject: Weekly Chat, 2/22/2009, 1:00 pm 
Message-ID: <1235325452.10.80030.m56@yahoogroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185919

Reminder from: HPforGrownups Yahoo! Group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/cal

Weekly Chat
Sunday February 22, 2009
1:00 pm - 1:00 pm
(This event repeats every week.)
Location: http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Notes:
Just a reminder, Sunday chat starts in about one hour.

To get to the HPfGU room follow this link:
http://www.chatzy.com/792755223574

Create a user name for yourself, whatever you want
to be called.

Enter the password: hpfguchat

Click "Join Chat" on the lower right. 

Chat start times:
11 am Pacific US
12 noon Mountain US
1 pm Central US
2 pm Eastern US
7 pm UK


All Rights Reserved
 Copyright  2009 
 Yahoo! Inc.
 http://www.yahoo.com

Privacy Policy:
 http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us

Terms of Service:
 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://archive.hpfgu.org/pipermail/hpforgrownups/attachments/20090222/abec610d/attachment.html>

From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 22 21:09:16 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 21:09:16 -0000
Subject: John Granger "Looking for God in Harry Potter"/ CH 4/ Alchemy
In-Reply-To: <gnqkef+o7qd@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnsets+cibk@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185920

> Alla
> I mean I could always see this interpretation, three stages - Black, 
> White, Red, but I do wonder - the fact that Hagrid did not die in the 
> last book, doesn't it make a massive blow into alchemical 
> interpretation? Sort of big OOOPS? I should I think wonder on Hogwarts 
> professor and check out what John Granger thinks about that one day.
>

Montavilla47:
It was pointed out elsewhere that Rufus Scrimgeour's death could be
the death of the red king.




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 22 21:20:52 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 21:20:52 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet par
In-Reply-To: <gnqm0m+g1bm@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnsfjk+nfdq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185921

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> > Montavilla47:
> > 
> > I was thinking about Snape in terms of taking him home to my family-
> -
> > and I think he would do pretty well.  <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> I mean there is a definite disagreement about one point, as to Snape 
> being able to keep his racism in check, but I want to try to keep 
> this thread fairly light hearted, so I will ask about another point, 
> which I am not sure that I even saw in your presentation.

Montavilla47:

Yeah, well my family is Muggles, and all wizards (with the possible 
exception of Harry) tend, at best, to adopt a paternalistic racism towards
Muggles.  So, if I'm going to be dating a wizard at all, I'd have to deal with 
that in any case.

As far as racism towards Muggleborn that would just strike my family
as ridiculous.  And, again, as long he's goaded into using foul language, 
it would probably be glossed over as "wizard" eccentricity.  

Alla:
> Although now that I am thinking about it, maybe you are going to 
> bring him to your family while he is still teaching, because if we 
> get really specific, he is now dead, lol. If  we are talking about 
> the time when he is still teaching, I think if he can sticks to your 
> way of presenting his charming personality he just may be able to do 
> it.

Montavilla47:
Yes.  I was thinking of it as during the time when he was teaching, 
rather than when he was quasi-fugitive from the law. I don't think he
would have had time to go on potential family-in-law dinners once 
he became Headmaster. 






From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 23 02:41:05 2009
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 02:41:05 -0000
Subject: John Granger "Looking for God in Harry Potter"/ CH 4/ Alchemy
In-Reply-To: <gnsets+cibk@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnt2c1+l164@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185922

> Alla:
> I mean I could always see this interpretation, three stages - 
> Black, White, Red, but I do wonder - the fact that Hagrid did 
> not die in the last book, doesn't it make a massive blow into 
> alchemical interpretation? Sort of big OOOPS?

> Montavilla47:
> It was pointed out elsewhere that Rufus Scrimgeour's death 
> could be the death of the red king.

Goddlefrood:

F-Red has also been suggested. It's all rather thin, IMO. I 
could say a great deal more, and have, but will not repeat 
previous posts / arguments here. If anyone is interested I 
have uploaded a link to the links section:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/links/Scholarly_Articles_0
00971306819/

Following it might help out with alchemy, it might not, but 
there it is.




From marsuk2000 at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Feb 22 23:38:03 2009
From: marsuk2000 at yahoo.co.uk (MarS)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 23:38:03 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
In-Reply-To: <gno2o8+7pvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnsnkr+tdm1@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185923

Okay So yes I would choose Snape for Husband... wait and here is why.
Okay the reason being is a Husband is for long term and it would take
half of that for me to actually get him to the point of opening up, and
I know he would be capable I believe that in DH it shows that he did
care for Harry very much even if every time he saw him he thought of
James and how annoying and nasty he was to him. He has a good heart seen
thought the series as to the times he has saved people (and not just
Harry). It shows that when he killed Dumbledore it was also to save
Draco one of his own.
Characteristics I like about Snape his sarcasm, his finger, the fact
that he is extremely observant, the dark hair which hides his emotions
facial features just to be able to read him. Also as a husband you have
his body (a pale skinny but toned with scars- yes he is going to have
scars) and his beautiful soul.
Okay there are more but it would take me a while to write everything
down (also I am a book Snape fan I totally know about the temper,
(crooked teeth and greasy hair- AR doesn't portray)

marsuk




From gav_fiji at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 23 04:28:02 2009
From: gav_fiji at yahoo.com (Goddlefrood)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 04:28:02 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
In-Reply-To: <gnsnkr+tdm1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnt8ki+fg4o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185924

"MarS" <marsuk2000 at ...> wrote:
> Characteristics I like about Snape his sarcasm, his finger, 

Goddlefrood:

Snape was unpleasant, but he never gave anyone 'the finger', iirc.

;-)





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 23 04:34:02 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 04:34:02 -0000
Subject: Snape's first day of class
In-Reply-To: <gnpr7m+mkhb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnt8vq+cmrq@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185925

>Marion Ros wrote: 
>First Potions lesson, when Snape keeps a whole classroom
mesmerized, Harry and Ron pull faces at each other (they look at each
other and pull up their eyebrows, which, in British mime means 'who is
this weirdo?').

>Alla wrote:
>So, the look that they give each other **after** Snape's speech on
page 137 of my book (Harry and Ron exchanged looks with raised
eyebrows), which you interpret as who is this weirdo, I interpret as a
a surprise of the kid of why this teacher singled me out,

>Catlady wrote:
>It seems to me that the raised eyebrows are only about Harry and 
Ron's reaction to Snape's speech. After a speech like that, they may 
not even *remember* that Snape snarked at Harry's name in the class 
roll. And it is just *before* Snape calls 'Potter!' to ask questions.

>It always seemed to me that Harry and Ron's reaction, as conveyed by
their eyebrows, was somewhere between 'This wizard *really* loves his
subject" and "Do you think it's *true* that he knows how to brew glory
and even stopper death? Wow!"

>Thus, it seems to me that Harry would feel that he was being
particularly unfairly treated to be punished for not paying attention
when he was in fact paying intense attention, spiced with a half drop
of admiration.

Joey:

IMO, Harry and Ron raised eyebrows because of the phrase "if you 
aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach." It 
would have sounded menacing and discouraging to them, especially for 
a fist-day speech by a teacher. Also, IIRC, Harry and Ron had already 
preconceived negative notions about Snape (due to different reasons 
and in varying degrees, of course) even before the class had started. 
So, as such, whatever Snape said would have sounded haughty to them. 
And, a statement like this can only worsen things! Hermione, being a 
very studious person with respect for most teachers in general, took 
this in a different stride.

JMO.

Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 23 08:51:34 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:51:34 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
In-Reply-To: <gno2o8+7pvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnto2m+guls@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185926

Alla wrote:
[snip]
> if there is a character from HP series you feel would be great 
husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend material, please tell us and 
explain why **with canon examples** please.

Joey:

Ron. :-) 

Characteristics in canon that attracted me: Loyalty in relationships, 
kindness of heart, being himself, speaking his mind, humour, ability 
to see beyond skin-deep beauty (finally, at least :-)), ambition to 
do well in life

Alla wrote:
[snip]
> If you think that character is someone you would like to dream 
about, but your parents would not have approve, that does not count :-
)

Joey:

Oops! :-) Yes, he has flaws, like everyone else does - he has been 
quite immature and very irresponsible at times. Yet I think he also 
puts in great effort and grows out of them. I'd introduce him to my 
parents after he grows out of his immaturity, I suppose. After DH 
then. :-)

[snip]
> somebody good for long term relationship and/or marriage.

Joey:

Yeah. Ron. :-)
 
Cheers,
~Joey :-)




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Feb 23 12:55:50 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:55:50 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
In-Reply-To: <gno2o8+7pvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnu6cm+bhds@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185927

Alla wrote:
> Heh, okay. So basically imagine that you are single if you are not, 
and 
> obviously as you are, you are and if there is a character from HP 
> series you feel would be great husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend 
> material, please tell us and explain why **with canon examples** 
please.


Potioncat:
I don't even have to think about it. In fact, his name came to me 
before I'd even finished reading your post. I have to imagine that 
I'm single, that he's single--and I guess also imagine an age that a 
boyfriend would be brought home to meet the family (that is, parents 
and not kids.)

So I pick Arthur Weasley. In this case, we've already seen his traits 
as a husband. He's affectionate, caring, teasing, supportive of his 
wive and protective of the family. He sticks to his principles. 
Besides, he has red hair.


Potioncat, who did not get a red-haired husband in RL, but then, he 
didn't get a blue-eyed wife.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Mon Feb 23 13:07:53 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 13:07:53 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet par
In-Reply-To: <gnprt7+4p2j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnu739+hvle@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185928


> Montavilla47:
> 
> I was thinking about Snape in terms of taking him home to my family-
-
> and I think he would do pretty well.  My family tends to enjoy dry 
wit,
> which he has.  

Potioncat:
If you started with young Snape--say after Lily moved on, but before 
he joined the DEs--there might be potential. If he had had some 
measure of success rather than so much failure, his sarcasm might 
have been more entertaining, and better controlled. More of the dry 
wit and less of the put-downs. He might have gone on to become a 
famous Healer, eventually Head of St. Mungo's. 

On that path, Snape would be a loyal spouse with most of his fame and 
glory for the family. He would, however, have high expectations for 
the family. Not an easy person to live with.

But I can't picture DE Snape, or even Professor Snape having the time 
or engery to put into a relationship. Had he survived DH, perhaps. 
After therapy....





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 23 15:13:43 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:13:43 -0000
Subject: Snape's first day of class
In-Reply-To: <gnt8vq+cmrq@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnuef7+7864@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185929

Joey wrote:
> 
> IMO, Harry and Ron raised eyebrows because of the phrase "if you 
aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach." It 
would have sounded menacing and discouraging to them, especially for a
fist-day speech by a teacher. Also, IIRC, Harry and Ron had already 
preconceived negative notions about Snape (due to different reasons
and in varying degrees, of course) even before the class had started.
So, as such, whatever Snape said would have sounded haughty to them.
And, a statement like this can only worsen things! Hermione, being a
very studious person with respect for most teachers in general, took
this in a different stride.

Carol responds:

I don't know about "menacing" but certainly the "dunderheads" remark
would be surprising (and anticlimactic) after the build-up about the
class. I think that the boys were surprised but no more than that, and
more than one studious student might have been inspired by it. (I can
see Draco, who seems to have a bit of Potions talent, reacting as Tom
Felton does in the film.) But I agree with the rest of your
comment--certainly it sounded haughty, as if he (no doubt rightly)
considered his abilities to be far above those of his students,
especially (sigh!) first-years. But what's interesting to me is that
he doesn't distinguish between Gryffindors and Slytherins in his
remarks--the "dunderhead" comment is an equal opportunity insult.
Evidently, he's had to deal with the likes of Crabbe and Goyle before
and is not enticed by the prospect of more clumsy and ignorant
first-years.

Carol, who thinks that Snape would have been happier as a lone
researcher and author "married" to his work




From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Mon Feb 23 15:17:48 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kempermentor)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:17:48 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet par
In-Reply-To: <gnu739+hvle@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnuems+si4s@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185930

> Potioncat:
> If you started with young Snape--say after Lily moved on, but before 
> he joined the DEs--there might be potential. ...
> 
> But I can't picture DE Snape, or even Professor Snape having the time 
> or engery to put into a relationship. Had he survived DH, perhaps. 
> After therapy....

Kemper now:
What about DDM Snape?  That Snape seemed to have built a relationship
with DD even though it's not on the romantic level, his concern for DD
seems genuine: a transferable skill/trait for other relationships! 
DD is the only one whom Snape can be himself. 

If Draco weren't in his Potions class, would Snape have needed to be a
jerk?  Maybe so, but prolly to a much less degree than with the kid of
a major DE in the class.

Kemper




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Mon Feb 23 17:17:41 2009
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:17:41 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
References: <gnsnkr+tdm1@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <09E8BDB3A87E4DBE850274C58BD13128@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 185931

I think as a young Witch I would have been in love with one of the twins. 
Their sense of humor is appreciated by me, and they are intelligent and 
resourceful. Those are all traits that I could live with for a lifetime, and 
know would carry us through any hard times we had. The ability to always 
look on the bright side would make our home a cheerful one, and the combined 
intelligence of mine (higher than average) would be a good mix with the one 
of the twin's intelligence. We'd have wonderfully creative children. I'm the 
type of person who homeschools my kids, and loves to see the kids experiment 
and dig into learning- I'd love to have a house full of little Weasleys 
experimenting and blowing things up! Uncle Percy would need some warming up, 
but we'd work on him. LOL And, the Weasley family would be a bonus too, with 
lots of kids, as I always wanted lots of kids and there would be no negative 
comments of "what, you're pregnant again?!?" Another Weasley would not be a 
bad thing in our home, and I would love the constant energy that goes on 
with the twins. Never a dull moment, and I think I would enjoy the lifetime 
of never ending creativeness that came from being married to one of the 
twins and having their children. And, I'd never be jealous that the twin 
spends more time with his other twin than me, but rather see that unique 
relationship between the twins as a gift that should be treasured, and I'd 
just to proud to be part of it.

I could see Uncle Percy having just a few kids, and ambitious enough to make 
loads of money, and so it would be interesting to see what he gave all the 
nieces and nephews for Christmas presents. And, I think I would love having 
Arthur and Molly as in-laws, as I have spunk and I think Molly and I would 
get along nicely. I think Molly would make an excellent grandma, full of 
advice and wonderful stories to tell late at night over a butterbeer about 
all the trouble the twins gave them when they were toddlers.

In real life, I have 4 kids, and it's interesting to see that one of mine 
takes more after uncle Mark than my husband, and so if I were a witch 
marrying one of the twins, odds are good that one of my kids would be a 
"little Percy" or a "little Ginny". But, the understanding would be there 
that any of the Weasley temperaments or traits could show up in the kids.

Shelley 




From eggplant107 at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 23 16:33:35 2009
From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:33:35 -0000
Subject: Apparating and the Theory of Relativity OR Dimensional Travel.
In-Reply-To: <gnllr6+m08j@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gnuj4v+34bt@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185932

KEN ADAMS <kenadams705 at ...> wrote:

> It seems to me that apparition involves
> the disappearance from one place and 
> the instantaneous appearance somewhere
> else. This means that speeds must be close to those of light.

Just a few days ago in the January 23 2009 issue of the journal
"Science" it was announced that an atom of ytterbium was teleported,
apparition style, for a distance of one meter. They accomplished this
feat by destroying the quantum state of one atom and reestablishing
the exact same state (complete with quantum entanglements and anything
else you care to name) in a ytterbium atom one meter away. It was not
literally instantaneous but close to it because it happened at the
speed of light. 

And by the way, in the Jan. 15, 2009 issue of Science, Duke University
scientists say that within 6 months they may have an Invisibility
cloak for visible light. 

 Eggplant





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 24 14:13:08 2009
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:13:08 -0000
Subject: First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation
In-Reply-To: <gnq1mh+kc29@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go0v9k+2bs7@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185933


Montavilla47:
Interesting, Annemehr. My own (entirely unsupported) theory is that
Serpentsoria is a spell that Slytherin firsties are traditionally 
taught by
older students because it's a cool way to conjure up the House Mascot.

Of course, they'd all know how to get rid of it, too.

But, you're right. Why bother to have Snape whisper instructions to
Draco here? Just to be a jerk? Well, okay, I can buy that (especially
after that House cup switcheroo the previous year) that Snape just
wants to have *his* Slytherin student show up the Gryffindor golden
boy. But it's more fun to think Snape was doing a bit of sleuthing for
Dumbledore.

<g>

Annemehr:
Hee.  A bit of Harry-deflating and some Slytherin pride all in one?  
Along with Snape's wearing of the green at Quidditch and his House 
Cup competitiveness, I could see it! <g>


 
> > Annemehr:
> > So, I wonder if Snape could have used [Protego] to shield himself 
from 
> Buckbeak at the end of HBP - or, can't you use it when you are 
> moving, because then you'd just run into your own wall? <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> I don't think you'd run into your own wall because you'd be running
> away from the pursuing hippogriff.

Annemehr:
I don't know how we could tell.  Would it move along with you, or is 
it planted in place?  Is it *so* temporary, that it would disappear 
before you got to it, if you were running?  What about on a broom?

Carol:
> I think the main reason that snape
> didn't use it was that he was keeping an eye on the gate, which was
> close at hand. I'm trying to remember--did Harry use Protego against
> any of the creatures in the TWT maze?
> > 

Annemehr:
I'm thinking that Snape didn't use it because JKR wasn't think of it 
that way at the time. <eg>

Anyway, no, Harry didn't ever use it at all in GoF - apparently he 
never managed to learn it until OoP.

I also checked HBP, and he didn't attempt it against the inferi in 
the cave, either.  And I'm thinking it would have helped if he had - 
all the other spells he tried worked; they just weren't effective.  
That is, incarcerous and impedimenta worked on individual inferi, but 
there were just too many of them, and sectumsempra made slashes 
appear in them, but as they were already dead, it didn't stop them 
advancing.  So, presumably, protego would have worked on a dead body 
as well as working on live ones.

> > > Carol, wondering what Annemehr thinks that Snape was "up to" 
given
> > that we know he was protecting Harry
> > >
> Annemehr:
> <snip>
> > The only thing that makes sense is that he was trying a little
> experiment to see whether he could evoke Parseltongue in Harry (in 
> connection with Dumbledore's plan). Because, DD knew *who* was 
> opening the Chamber; it was Tom Riddle all the time.  And Harry was
> someone with a connection to Riddle.
> 
> Carol responds:
> I see! So we're back to the suggestion I made earlier in this 
thread:
> 
> Carol earlier:
> > > I'm not sure about the Serpensortia spell, but it *may* have 
been
> Snape's way of testing to see whether Harry was a Parselmouth. It
> certainly served that purpose whether it was his intention or not.
> And Snape easily Vanished the snake before it could do any harm.

Annemehr:
In fact, I am right back to the first time I really understood this 
scene: as part of Guilty!DD!!! <veg>

> 
> Carol again:
> I abandoned that particular point because I couldn't think of any 
way
> to support it. The Serpensortia looked to me primarily like a plot
> device to allow Harry to speak Parseltongue and set up the 
suspicions
> of him as the Heir of Slytherin, especially after the next Petrified
> student just happens to be Justin Finch-Fletchley. <snip> But the 
only piece of solid evidence I can find is
> Snape'e expression after Harry starts speaking Parseltongue. Instead
> of looking surprised or horrified, he looks "shrewd and calculating"
> (CoS Am. ed. 193). He certainly could not have anticipated that
> Lockhart would try to Vanish the snake, causing it to move angrily
> toward a student. I wonder what he *did* expect--and whether he 
teally
> thought that Harry might have been responsible for the attacks.

Annemehr:
Well, after DH, I have to admit that I think some things in the 
series *are* mere plot devices.

But we do have some decent evidence here: the fact that it was 
Snape's idea and not just a random hex from Draco; the fact of 
Snape's shrewd expression, as you point out; and also the fact that 
he waited to vanish the snake...until after Harry had spoken to it.  
He didn't vanish it when it was threatening Justin, but only after it 
was already safe, when it had quit hissing and turned toward the 
person who had spoken to it.

I can't really say whether he thought Harry might be responsible for 
the attacks.  That would partly depend on how much DD told him.  But 
it really doesn't look as though Snape suspects Harry in connection 
with them, as I recall.

Carol: 
> What we don't know is whether Dumbledore asked him to "assist"
> Lockhart or whether it was his own idea. I'm inclined to think that
> it's the first. If only we could see inside that shrewd and
> calculating mind!

Annemehr:
Given that I don't think he believed that Harry was opening the 
Chamber, I'm thinking this was at DD's behest.  (Was there ever any 
indication that Snape ever knew that Voldemort was the one who opened 
it the first time, btw?  I can't recall.)

As for the Dueling Club in particular, he may just have been looking 
for a good opportunity to elicit Parseltongue from Harry, and this 
was it.  I can't imagine him setting a snake on Harry himself, as it 
would would be construed as attacking a student, and it wouldn't be 
his style anyway.  Best to induce Draco to do it sometime; those two 
are always at odds and it would look like business as usual.

> 
> Carol, wishing that Snape could have taught DADA all along with no
> DADA curse (I know; there goes the plot)

Nah, I like the Potions Master.  But I do wish Harry had listened to 
him on the matter of other ways to handle dementors, the little twerp.

Annemehr





From justcarol67 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 24 17:56:28 2009
From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (Carol)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:56:28 -0000
Subject: Protego (and a bit on Impedimenta) Was: First lesson
In-Reply-To: <go0v9k+2bs7@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go1ccc+sk4f@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185934

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Annemehr" <annemehr at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Interesting, Annemehr. My own (entirely unsupported) theory is that
> Serpentsoria is a spell that Slytherin firsties are traditionally 
> taught by
> older students because it's a cool way to conjure up the House Mascot.
> 
> Of course, they'd all know how to get rid of it, too.
> 
> But, you're right. Why bother to have Snape whisper instructions to
> Draco here? Just to be a jerk? Well, okay, I can buy that (especially
> after that House cup switcheroo the previous year) that Snape just
> wants to have *his* Slytherin student show up the Gryffindor golden
> boy. But it's more fun to think Snape was doing a bit of sleuthing for
> Dumbledore.
> 
> <g>
> 
> Annemehr:
> Hee.  A bit of Harry-deflating and some Slytherin pride all in one?  
> Along with Snape's wearing of the green at Quidditch and his House 
> Cup competitiveness, I could see it! <g>
> 
> 
>  
> > > Annemehr:
> > > So, I wonder if Snape could have used [Protego] to shield himself 
> from 
> > Buckbeak at the end of HBP - or, can't you use it when you are 
> > moving, because then you'd just run into your own wall? <snip>
> > 
> > Carol responds:
> > I don't think you'd run into your own wall because you'd be running
> > away from the pursuing hippogriff.
> 
> Annemehr:
> I don't know how we could tell.  Would it move along with you, or is 
> it planted in place?  Is it *so* temporary, that it would disappear 
> before you got to it, if you were running?  What about on a broom?

Carol responds:

The wall would be between you and the hippogriff, which means that
when you turned around to run, it would be behind you--unless, of
course, the wall is all around you, in which case, it would have to
move with you, or you'd be trapped by your own spell. Same thing with
riding a broom. If you just want to create an obstacle between
yourself and the pursuer, you probably cast Impedimenta rather than
Protego. When Harry is on a broom, he casts Impedimenta at a masked DE
(who turns out to be Stan Shunpike), causing him to strike an
invisible barrier. It might be better to cast Impedimenta at a
pursuing hippogriff rather than Protego, depending on how long the
wall lasts and whether it stays with you. (Elsewhere Impedimenta
causes pursuers to trip or hurls them against a wall, as in HBP when
Harry casts that spell against the Carrows on two occasions--the
descriptions are inconsistent.) Of course, a conjured snake is
different from a real hippogriff or a Dark witch/wizard. The best
counterspell for Serpensortia is clearly Evanesco, the Vanishing
spell. But if the choice is between Protego and Impedimenta, I think
that Protego would be better because the wall would last longer,
creating *protection* as opposed to an *impediment* if the names of
the spells are any indication of their respective purposes.

As for how long Protego (as opposed to the clearly short-term
Impedimenta) lasts, that also seems to vary. When it's merely cast to
block a spell, it seems to sometimes deflect the spell onto the
caster, knocking him or her over (cf. the Protego that Harry casts
against Snape in the Occlumency lesson). Sometimes, it merely knocks
the person over *without* deflecting the spell, which apparently never
gets cast(cf. Harry's Protego against Snape in the DADA class and
Snape's against McGonagall in "The Sacking of Severus Snape")); and
sometimes it creates a protective wall, which, in the case of Harry's
Protego separating Hermione from Ron in DH, lasts until Harry removes
it, which is quite a long time (six pages of dialogue, some of it
condensed). Of course, Hermione at that point doesn't have her wand or
she might have been able to cast a counterspell (if such a thing
exists for defensive spells). Oddly, Harry casts the destroyed locket
into her lap *before* he removes the spell, which could indicate that
the wall blocks her but not him--i.e., the caster of the Protego would
be able to cast spells through it but the blocked person couldn't. (I
wish JKR were more consistent in describing the various spells and
their effects. At this point, to be honest, I'm just confused.)

Annemehr:
> <snip>
> I also checked HBP, and he didn't attempt it against the inferi in 
the cave, either.  And I'm thinking it would have helped if he had - 
all the other spells he tried worked; they just weren't effective. 
That is, incarcerous and impedimenta worked on individual inferi, but
there were just too many of them, and sectumsempra made slashes appear
in them, but as they were already dead, it didn't stop them 
advancing.  So, presumably, protego would have worked on a dead body
as well as working on live ones.

Carol:
I agree. But he probably thought of it as a protection against a Dark
wizard with a wand, so he didn't cast it.

Annemehr:
> I can't really say whether he thought Harry might be responsible for 
> the attacks.  That would partly depend on how much DD told him.  But 
> it really doesn't look as though Snape suspects Harry in connection
with them, as I recall. <snip>

Carol responds:

"Guilty until proven innocent, Severus"? (I'm quoting from memory, but
it's in the scene in CoS when they find the Petrified Mrs. Norris.
(Filch, of course, definitely suspects Harry.)

> Annemehr:
> Given that I don't think he believed that Harry was opening the 
Chamber, I'm thinking this was at DD's behest.  (Was there ever any
indication that Snape ever knew that Voldemort was the one who opened
it the first time, btw? I can't recall.)

Carol:
He would know that the Chamber had been opened fifty years ago, at the
point when Hagrid was expelled and Tom Riddle received his award for
services to the school, which was prominently displayed in the Trophy
Room. And he would know, of course, that Voldemort was a Parselmouth.
So, if he also knew that Tom Riddle was Voldemort, he would know that
Tom Riddle, the original Heir of Slytherin, had opened the Chamber
fifty years earlier.

Annemehr: 
> As for the Dueling Club in particular, he may just have been looking
for a good opportunity to elicit Parseltongue from Harry, and this 
was it.  I can't imagine him setting a snake on Harry himself, as it
would would be construed as attacking a student, and it wouldn't be 
his style anyway.  Best to induce Draco to do it sometime; those two 
are always at odds and it would look like business as usual.

Carol responds:
The whole point being that DD asked him to determine whether Harry was
a Parselmouth without telling him anything else? Snape would at least
connect Parseltongue (and DD's suspicion that Harry spoke it) with the
Petrification of Mrs. Norris and would probably know that the monster
must be a Basilisk. (He, of course, must be the one who brewed the
potion from the Mandrake roots that Madam Sprout was conveniently
growing.) I think that Snape had suspicions of his own, as the "shrewd
and calculating expression" indicates (as does his reaction when Harry
is found near the Petrified cat). Obviously, if he suspected that
Harry was the Heir of Slytherin, he was wrong, having once again used
his excellent powers of deduction to arrive at the wrong conclusion,
but it would at least provide him with a reason for wanting to
determine whether Harry spoke Parseltongue other than merely following
DD's inexplicable orders.

Anyway, I'm back to agreeing with you that Snape took the opportunity
to suggest that spell to Draco with the explicit intention of
discovering whether Harry spoke Parseltongue. Whether he did it at
DD's prompting or on his own initiative or both is unclear. I suspect
that DD at least asked him to volunteer to be Lockhart's assistant and
that they discussed the matter of Harry's possible ability to speak
Parseltongue, Snape perhaps arriving at conclusions rather different
from Dumbledore's. At first, he seems to have thought that they were
wrong since he was ready to Vanish the snake as Harry stood staring at
it. It was only after Lockhart bungled the Vanishing spell and angered
the snake that Harry started speaking to it (a matter of a few
seconds). Granted, Snape didn't Vanish the snake until Harry had
already calmed it, but I don't think the thought that either Harry or
Justin was in any real danger or he'd have done it sooner. OTOH, the
whole purpose of the spell does seem to have been to see whether Harry
spoke Parseltongue, which could not be done unless he was given time
to do so.

Interesting dilemma for Snape, who has to protect Harry while exposing
him as having an ability associated with Dark wizards, which the
Hufflepuffs immediately connect with the Heir of Slytherin (especially
when Justin is the next victim). I think, given his antipathy to James
and his knowledge of James's hexing people who annoyed him in the
hallways, that Snape at least considered the possibility that Harry
had Petrified Filch's cat. (There's also his mysterious suppressed
smile during the cat scene; maybe, for once, he feels a touch of
empathy for Harry--or whoever Petrified Filch's "sweet" pet.)

One thing is certain: Snape reported to Dumbledore that Harry was a
Parselmouth, probably describing the incident in detail. I'm quite
sure that his methods and intentions met with Dumbledore's approval
even though DD didn't share his (apparent) suspicions. 

Carol, who likes the Dueling Club scene because it provides the first
hints that Snape knows something besides Potions (and because Snape
shows up Lockhart so completely)





From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 25 06:01:36 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 06:01:36 -0000
Subject: Snape's first day of class
In-Reply-To: <gnuef7+7864@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go2ms0+9l3b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185935

Carol wrote:
> 
> I don't know about "menacing" but certainly the "dunderheads" remark
> would be surprising (and anticlimactic) after the build-up about the
> class. I think that the boys were surprised but no more than that

[snip]

Joey:
I would have certainly understood that phrase to mean "If you are not 
up to my expectations, I'll consider you a dunderhead (and that is 
not good news for you; beware)." I have had a similar teacher at 
school and the entire class (including studious ones like me :-)), 
never looked forward to his classes and timid students simply dreaded 
his classes right from day one after he made similar remarks. So, 
this could be one reason why I find the remark menacing. :-)

Carol wrote:
> more than one studious student might have been inspired by it. (I 
can see Draco, who seems to have a bit of Potions talent, reacting as 
Tom Felton does in the film.) 

Joey:
I've completely forgotten the scene and so, cannot comment. :-)

Carol wrote:
> But what's interesting to me is that
> he doesn't distinguish between Gryffindors and Slytherins in his
> remarks--the "dunderhead" comment is an equal opportunity insult.
> Evidently, he's had to deal with the likes of Crabbe and Goyle 
before
> and is not enticed by the prospect of more clumsy and ignorant
> first-years.

[snip]

Joey:
Yes, I think so too. I'm not sure which book it was (GoF, I think), 
where Snape made a remark that meant Goyle (or Crabbe?) is not good 
enough for employment in the near future. Snape abhors incompetence, 
I suppose. 

BTW, he also admires *extraordinary* competence. Probably, this made 
him get attracted to the "Dark Lord" and also, makes him use that 
name instead of you-know-who. His reply when Harry confronts him 
during Occlumency lessons regarding DD using the name "Voldemort" 
also confirms my belief. Yet he does not seem to compliment any good 
potion-maker in the making, like say Hermione or even Draco. Hmm.. :-)
 
Carol wrote:
> Carol, who thinks that Snape would have been happier as a lone
> researcher and author "married" to his work

Joey:

Agreed. :-)





From annemehr at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 25 16:44:51 2009
From: annemehr at yahoo.com (Annemehr)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:44:51 -0000
Subject: Protego, and Snape's suspicions (Was: Protego (and a bit on Impedimenta))
In-Reply-To: <go1ccc+sk4f@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go3si3+sl6d@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185936

 
> > > > Annemehr:
> > > > So, I wonder if Snape could have used [Protego] to shield 
himself 
> > from 
> > > Buckbeak at the end of HBP - or, can't you use it when you are 
> > > moving, because then you'd just run into your own wall? <snip>
> 

> Carol responds:
> 
> The wall would be between you and the hippogriff, which means that
> when you turned around to run, it would be behind you--unless, of
> course, the wall is all around you, in which case, it would have to
> move with you, or you'd be trapped by your own spell. Same thing 
with
> riding a broom. 


Annemehr:

D'oh.

Yes, I was just assuming it would be a wall all the way around you.  
I hadn't thought it out or anything, it was just unconscious.

I swear, an unconscious assumption is going to kill me one of these 
days.


Carol:

> If you just want to create an obstacle between
> yourself and the pursuer, you probably cast Impedimenta rather than
> Protego. When Harry is on a broom, he casts Impedimenta at a masked 
DE
> (who turns out to be Stan Shunpike), causing him to strike an
> invisible barrier. It might be better to cast Impedimenta at a
> pursuing hippogriff rather than Protego, depending on how long the
> wall lasts and whether it stays with you.


Annemehr:

Whereas, Snape just did the Muggle hands-over-the-head-and-run 
thing.  *snort*  And I don't think it's because he was watching for 
the gate, either.  I think JKR was just getting a dig in.

Anyway, Impedimenta seems pretty redundant now, doesn't it?  For one 
thing, it seems to need to be aimed, and Protego doesn't (its barrier 
is bigger, I think).  Although, it was much easier for Harry to learn.


Carol:

> Of course, a conjured snake is
> different from a real hippogriff or a Dark witch/wizard. The best
> counterspell for Serpensortia is clearly Evanesco, the Vanishing
> spell. But if the choice is between Protego and Impedimenta, I think
> that Protego would be better because the wall would last longer,
> creating *protection* as opposed to an *impediment* if the names of
> the spells are any indication of their respective purposes.


Annemehr:

Hmmm.  I don't think Protego would be of any less use against a 
conjured snake than against a real hippogriff -- after all, it is 
described as a protection against *spells* that also apparently works 
against *bodies.*  So whether the snake is "real" or not shouldn't 
make any difference.  

The point of using Evanesco is not just to protect against the snake, 
but to get rid of it altogether - I suppose that was the sense in 
which you meant it was the "best" counterspell, yes?


Carol:
> 
<snip interesting enumeration of the various effects of Protego 
throughout the series> 

> (I wish JKR were more consistent in describing the various spells 
and
> their effects. At this point, to be honest, I'm just confused.)


Annemehr:

Thanks for that!  And I agree, she's awfully inconsistent about many 
things, and not all of them "minor details."

 
> Annemehr:
> > I can't really say whether he thought Harry might be responsible 
for 
> > the attacks.  That would partly depend on how much DD told him.  
But 
> > it really doesn't look as though Snape suspects Harry in 
connection
> with them, as I recall. <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> "Guilty until proven innocent, Severus"? (I'm quoting from memory, 
but
> it's in the scene in CoS when they find the Petrified Mrs. Norris.
> (Filch, of course, definitely suspects Harry.)


Annemehr:

Ah, but guilty of *what?*  By the time Snape is recommending 
restrictions for Harry, it has already been clearly established that 
this was advanced dark magic, and not a mere Petrificus Totalus, 
nothing a second year could have done.  DD has already tried several 
things unsuccessfully, to undo it.

No, Snape just wants to know what Harry was up to, to take him to 
that corridor.  He can tell that Harry is not telling the whole truth 
about why he was there.  And his smirking, I think, is because he's 
enjoying the fact that Harry was very much in the wrong place at the 
wrong time, and will end up paying for it (something Ron knew, 
too: "Trust me, we don't want to be found here," he told Harry).

Besides, if Snape manages to see Harry punished for *something,* he 
has no doubt that Harry will know what it's for. ;)

> 
> > Annemehr:
> > Given that I don't think he believed that Harry was opening the 
> Chamber, I'm thinking this was at DD's behest.  (Was there ever any
> indication that Snape ever knew that Voldemort was the one who 
opened
> it the first time, btw? I can't recall.)
> 
> Carol:
> He would know that the Chamber had been opened fifty years ago, at 
the
> point when Hagrid was expelled and Tom Riddle received his award for
> services to the school, which was prominently displayed in the 
Trophy
> Room. And he would know, of course, that Voldemort was a 
Parselmouth.
> So, if he also knew that Tom Riddle was Voldemort, he would know 
that
> Tom Riddle, the original Heir of Slytherin, had opened the Chamber
> fifty years earlier.


Annemehr:

This suggests to me, the subject of a whole new thread: who knew 
what, and when?  But I would need a reread first, especially of DH.

The fact that LV is a Parselmouth may not necessarily tell Snape 
anything.  The general superstition is that it is the "mark of a Dark 
Wizard."  And it is general knowledge that LV is a Parselmouth.  But 
DD is the only one we know for sure who knew that the "beast" was a 
basilisk, and thus that Parseltongue was necessary to carry out the 
attacks.

We have two descriptions from books of what a basilisk is: the page 
from the old library book that the petrified Hermione had clutched in 
her hand, and the very similar entry in the FB that JKR wrote for 
charity.  Neither mentions petrification as an effect of seeing the 
eyes reflected.  And it seems that no one could tell by Myrtle's dead 
body that a basilisk had killed her.  So I don't think there is 
anything to connect a basilisk, and therefore Parseltongue, to the 
Chamber.

Lucius Malfoy had Tom Riddle's diary, and must therefore have known 
that this was LV's given name.  Does this mean that Snape may have 
known, as well?  I wouldn't trust that assumption - recall in the 
beginning of HBP, when Narcissa and Bellatrix visited Snape, and 
Bella *almost* mentioned that LV had entrusted her with Hufflepuff's 
cup.  She stopped herself: apparently she was told to keep that a 
secret, and probably Lucius was told the same thing about the diary.

It's just possible that Snape may know who Moaning Myrtle is, and had 
asked her how she died, at some point.  If so, he may recognize 
what "great big yellow eyes" would mean.  But, no one in Harry's time 
seems to know who Myrtle is (seems odd, but there you are).  And 
after all, she hadn't been in the castle the whole time, she'd been 
haunting Olive Hornby for a while first.  Perhaps that's when her 
identity had been forgotten.  There's nothing to suggest that Snape 
knew she was the victim of the "monster."

Finally, we're down to the question of whether DD told Snape that it 
was Riddle/LV who did it.  And, who knows?

That's all I can think of, for now.

> 
> Annemehr: 
> > As for the Dueling Club in particular, he may just have been 
looking
> for a good opportunity to elicit Parseltongue from Harry, and this 
> was it.  I can't imagine him setting a snake on Harry himself, as it
> would would be construed as attacking a student, and it wouldn't be 
> his style anyway.  Best to induce Draco to do it sometime; those 
two 
> are always at odds and it would look like business as usual.
> 
> Carol responds:
> The whole point being that DD asked him to determine whether Harry 
was
> a Parselmouth without telling him anything else? Snape would at 
least
> connect Parseltongue (and DD's suspicion that Harry spoke it) with 
the
> Petrification of Mrs. Norris and would probably know that the 
monster
> must be a Basilisk. (He, of course, must be the one who brewed the
> potion from the Mandrake roots that Madam Sprout was conveniently
> growing.) I think that Snape had suspicions of his own, as 
the "shrewd
> and calculating expression" indicates (as does his reaction when 
Harry
> is found near the Petrified cat). Obviously, if he suspected that
> Harry was the Heir of Slytherin, he was wrong, having once again 
used
> his excellent powers of deduction to arrive at the wrong conclusion,
> but it would at least provide him with a reason for wanting to
> determine whether Harry spoke Parseltongue other than merely 
following
> DD's inexplicable orders.


Annemehr:

Well, I have no problem imagining that Snape may have done it merely 
on DD's inexplicable orders, and done it well to boot.

But yes, if DD suddenly became interested in Harry's Parseltongue 
abilities while the attacks were occurring, that would give him a 
hint that a basilisk was involved.

But I still can't see that Snape could really have thought that Harry 
himself was responsible for the attacks.  I mean, we're talking about 
the *Chamber of Secrets* and the *Heir of Slytherin* here.  The 
presence of a real Dark Lord.  Snape wouldn't be merely sneering at 
Harry, if he thought that was who he was.  Really, he can only be 
thinking that Harry is messing around as usual, sticking his nose in, 
and getting himself involved with things he knows nothing about.


Carol:

> Interesting dilemma for Snape, who has to protect Harry while 
exposing
> him as having an ability associated with Dark wizards, 
<snip>


Annemehr:

Oh, well, I think it was just a regular snake; as this was planned, 
I'm sure he had an antidote ready, whether magical or "muggle."  
There was surely no real danger anyway.


Carol:

> One thing is certain: Snape reported to Dumbledore that Harry was a
> Parselmouth, probably describing the incident in detail. I'm quite
> sure that his methods and intentions met with Dumbledore's approval
> even though DD didn't share his (apparent) suspicions. 
> 
> Carol, who likes the Dueling Club scene because it provides the 
first
> hints that Snape knows something besides Potions (and because Snape
> shows up Lockhart so completely)
>


Yep, agreed on all points, except for that "apparent suspicions" 
part. ;)

Annemehr





From magnolia11875 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 25 22:48:05 2009
From: magnolia11875 at yahoo.com (magnolia11875)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:48:05 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts Class Schedule Setup
Message-ID: <go4hr5+op29@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185937

Hello all

I've been rereading all of the books and trying to figure out how the
classes work.  It almost seems to resemble something like a college
class schedule, but it also seems quirky.  I can't figure out how long
the classes might be or how the double classes work or how the sharing
classes thing works...  It's driving me crazy.  I'm definitely looking
forward to opening a discussion on this to try and make it make sense.

Thanks!

Tabs




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Feb 26 02:45:42 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 02:45:42 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts Class Schedule Setup
In-Reply-To: <go4hr5+op29@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go4vom+9eqs@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185938

 "magnolia11875"  wrote:
> 
> I've been rereading all of the books and trying to figure out how the
> classes work.  It almost seems to resemble something like a college
> class schedule, but it also seems quirky.  I can't figure out how long
> the classes might be or how the double classes work or how the sharing
> classes thing works...  It's driving me crazy.  I'm definitely looking
> forward to opening a discussion on this to try and make it make sense.


Potioncat:
I seem to remember something on the Lexicon about classes--or perhaps 
it was the daily schedules based on canon. I don't have time to look 
for the speicific page, but here's the main link to The Lexicon.

http://www.hp-lexicon.info/index-2.html

Good luck.




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Feb 26 07:41:50 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 07:41:50 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts Class Schedule Setup
In-Reply-To: <go4hr5+op29@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go5h3u+jjcl@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185939

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "magnolia11875" <magnolia11875 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Hello all
> 
> I've been rereading all of the books and trying to figure out how the
> classes work.  It almost seems to resemble something like a college
> class schedule, but it also seems quirky.  I can't figure out how long
> the classes might be or how the double classes work or how the sharing
> classes thing works...  It's driving me crazy.  I'm definitely looking
> forward to opening a discussion on this to try and make it make sense.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Tabs

Geoff:
This is a re-post of something I sent last night and which seems 
to have gone to ground in cyberspace.
:-(

I was involved for many years in timetable building  and these were 
quite a regular feature. A double class is quite simply what it says - 
twice as long as a standard class.

In the school where I taught, the "standard" day was 8 periods of 
40 minutes each. For some lessons, usually with some practical input, 
such as technology, computing (which was one of my subjects) and 
games for example, this was not long enough, so they were timetabled 
in as a double lesson of 80 minutes.

In their last couple of years up to GCSE in Year 11, pupils would also 
have a number of options for their classes. These were usually 
timetabled in blocks together, not as class groups, and thus members 
of different classes would be together for these lessons.

It has been suggested in past discussions on this topic that class 
groups at Hogwarts seem to be small. We see Gryffindor and Slytherin 
being together for Potions and one presumes that a similar grouping 
occurred with Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw. It should be borne in mind, 
though, that this might be also because of time demands on Snape as 
he seems to be the only teacher of Potions.




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Thu Feb 26 13:22:24 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:22:24 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
In-Reply-To: <gno2o8+7pvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go652g+e78u@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185940

 "dumbledore11214"  wrote:
>
> Heh, okay. So basically imagine that you are single if you are not, 
and 
> obviously as you are, you are and if there is a character from HP 
> series you feel would be great husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend 
> material, please tell us and explain why **with canon examples** 
please.


Potioncat:

I know you asked about "a" character, and I've replied once, but I 
was thinking about the characters in general; and also, who would I 
want my son or daughter to bring home for me to meet?

Neville probably gets first place, with Ron and Harry tied for 
second. All of them are brave, caring, loyal. Neville seems to have a 
bit more moral fiber. But maybe that's because we saw less of him.

I wouldn't want any of the Marauders. Remus is the only one who comes 
close. But Remus is weak, and to quick to give up, or back down. 
Besides, if he and I were on the same moon cycle, it could be 
dangerous.

Lupin was friendlier to Harry and did a better job of teaching Harry 
than Snape; but he could have told him much more than he did. Snape 
was really there for Harry through it all and Lupin wasn't.

I'll second Percy as having qualities for a good mate, but I think he 
shares a trait with Snape. He's ambitious and I think he would have 
certain expectations for the wife and kids that would be hard to live 
up to. I can picture Percy's family as almost similar to the 
Dursleys, entertaining the right people to climb the ladder, but on a 
different level, and with style.

OK, Alla, time to reveal your choice!




From zanooda2 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 26 19:39:08 2009
From: zanooda2 at yahoo.com (zanooda2)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:39:08 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
In-Reply-To: <go652g+e78u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go6r4s+89nb@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185941

> Alla wrote:

> So basically imagine that you are single if you are not, 
> and obviously as you are, you are and if there is a character 
> from HP series you feel would be great husband/wife/boyfriend
> /girlfriend material, please tell us and explain why **with 
> canon examples** please.


zanooda:

I think I would have chosen Bill Weasley :-). I don't have much time
to write lately, so I can't give lots of canon examples, but IMO Bill
is intelligent, brave, caring and even-tempered, he is sensitive
enough, but not a sissy, and he takes charge, if necessary. He also
has a trait that I value in a husband - he knows how to stand up to
his mother :-), and he does it gently, but firmly. 

I like how well-adjusted Bill is, and I like the way he takes what
happened to him. I mean, Lupin in these circumstances probably would
have whined about it for the rest of his (or his wife's :-)) life -
that she married him out of pity and that she shouldn't have or
something like that. 

The only trait that I don't appreciate in Bill is his good looks - I
think it's not a very good thing for a husband, unless you are Fleur
Delacourt :-). But if it's post-Greyback Bill, then it's OK :-). Sorry
again, Alla, that I can't write more in detail right now (and there is
so much more to say) :-).




From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 26 22:03:44 2009
From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:03:44 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
In-Reply-To: <go652g+e78u@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go73k0+43l6@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185942

> Potioncat:
>  OK, Alla, time to reveal your choice!
><SNIP>

Alla:

Okay, so I guess I should reveal my choice. I put this remark of 
yours on top purposefully, because I wanted to reply to your choices 
that way.

Potioncat:
> I know you asked about "a" character, and I've replied once, but I 
> was thinking about the characters in general; and also, who would I 
> want my son or daughter to bring home for me to meet?
> 
> Neville probably gets first place, with Ron and Harry tied for 
> second. All of them are brave, caring, loyal. Neville seems to have 
a 
> bit more moral fiber. But maybe that's because we saw less of him.


Alla:

Hm, I would definitely want for my niece to bring Harry or Ron home. 
And if we are talking about Harry or Ron at the end of the books they 
are definitely right choice for me, heh. I mean if I would not have 
seen them in the epilogue, then if I would have to project them being 
older, I would have probably chosen Ron, but not Harry for myself 
since love Harry as I am, he has issues and would probably need lots 
of therapy after all he had been through.

But it looks to me as if he is a good dad, with good job, etc, and he 
has plenty moral fiber for me.

So, yes older Harry or Ron will be my top choices.

Potioncat: 
> I wouldn't want any of the Marauders. Remus is the only one who 
comes 
> close. But Remus is weak, and to quick to give up, or back down. 
> Besides, if he and I were on the same moon cycle, it could be 
> dangerous.
> 
> Lupin was friendlier to Harry and did a better job of teaching 
Harry 
> than Snape; but he could have told him much more than he did. Snape 
> was really there for Harry through it all and Lupin wasn't.


Alla:

I was going to say that I do not want to bring home any of Marauders 
either, but then I realized that it also may not be true.

So, let's start with Sirius, who is hand down my favorite adult 
character. No, of course I would not bring home post Azkaban Sirius, 
way too many issues for me to think of him as  a good husband. As you 
remarked about Snape, maybe after years of therapy, but that does not 
count for the purposes of this game :-)

But then I realized that really I know nothing bad about young 
Sirius, meaning not that I think of him as perfect character or 
something, but I know nothing about him that would prevent me from 
imagining him as good husband. So if Sirius never went to Azkaban, 
who knows, heh. He is smart, loyal to boot not only to his friends, 
but to their child too. I am not sure though if he would have been 
able to find good job though.

Remus? Oh dear, no way, NO thank you, younger or older. One has only 
has to look at the way he treated Tonks IMO. And it is not that I am 
convinced that they have had to be together, quite the contrary. I am 
convinced that he never loved Tonks enough, but did not have the 
strength to tell every well wisher around him including Tonks who 
wanted him and Tonks to be together to go jump in the lake and  leave 
him the heck alone.

But see now, the more I think about James, the more I think that it 
is quite possible I would have loved to bring him home to my family 
and my family would have totally approved. Now I of course did not 
see enough of their married life, but in that scene of their death to 
me he appeared a loving husband and father. And I know he is rich too 
AND I know he was okay with his wife working despite them having 
money. I mean of course he and Lily were working for the Order, but 
still I think I can infer that he would be okay with Lily working in 
the peace time. Um, what's not to like? I would never want to stay 
home, but  to have enough money to have a freedom to work as much as 
I want and to do what I want. Yeah, I would love that. Oh and no, 
before anybody asks, I do not  think any woman needs husband's 
permission to work or not to work. I was just thinking about this as 
another angle they do not need to argue over, that's all.



Sooooo, again I fully admit not having enough information to judge 
about him as a husband, but from what I saw, sure why not.

Oh, wait he hated Snape a lot.  Yeah, what not to like. :)


Potioncat: 
> I'll second Percy as having qualities for a good mate, but I think 
he 
> shares a trait with Snape. He's ambitious and I think he would have 
> certain expectations for the wife and kids that would be hard to 
live 
> up to. I can picture Percy's family as almost similar to the 
> Dursleys, entertaining the right people to climb the ladder, but on 
a 
> different level, and with style.

Alla:

Since I was thinking about somebody my parents would approve but whom 
I would love to, I just have to say oh no thank you for Percy.

But I do love Zanooda's choice of Bill, I really do :-)




From minne1957 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 27 02:00:15 2009
From: minne1957 at yahoo.com (Andrea Degner)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:00:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
In-Reply-To: <go73k0+43l6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <738026.1303.qm@web36603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185943

Folks,
?
I just have to step in here.? No one has recommended Cedric Diggory.? He is absolutely handsome and has a great personality.? What's not to love?
?
Mrs. Spicy




From k12listmomma at comcast.net  Fri Feb 27 05:10:29 2009
From: k12listmomma at comcast.net (k12listmomma)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:10:29 -0700
Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
References: <738026.1303.qm@web36603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <43A54BA45E8040519E8BE7BDFBF09B57@homemain>

No: HPFGUIDX 185944

From: "Andrea Degner" <minne1957 at yahoo.com>
> I just have to step in here. No one has recommended Cedric Diggory. He is 
> absolutely handsome and has a great personality. What's not to love?

> Mrs. Spicy

When I think Cedric, I think "pretty boy Diggory". Since I have never chased 
the "pretty boys", I wouldn't have chosen him for a boyfriend. I mean, he's 
smart and everything, but I just don't think he would have been in "my 
crowd" or in "my circle of friends". Too much attention paid to him, too 
much of a chance that I would never really have his full attention.

And, the other reason that people might not have chosen him is that he died 
while yet a student, which meant that he never lived long enough to get 
married. Hard to choose someone for a potential spouse if he's dead.

Shelley 




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 27 05:22:32 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:22:32 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
In-Reply-To: <738026.1303.qm@web36603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <go7tao+bk1m@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185945

Mrs. Spicy wrote:
> Folks,
> ?
> I just have to step in here.? No one has recommended Cedric Diggory.? 

Joey:

Oh yes, I like him a lot - just & fair, modest, polite, brave; very 
endearing, indeed. 

Mrs. Spicy wrote:
> He is absolutely handsome 

[snip]  

Joey:

Ah, there you go. May be that is one reason. 

*His* choice for a girlfriend was Cho - so, I'm not sure what *he* 
looks for in a partner. Looks? Quidditch interests? Forget it. It's not 
going work between me and him, if that's the case. :-)

Moreover, we've not got to see much of him i.e. his flaws, especially. 
That's also making me a bit uncomfortable.

And, I can clearly imagine my mother telling me "He is *too* handsome; 
are you sure you want to marry and live with him?" - you know what I 
mean? :-) 

Cheers,
~Joey, who might have chosen Cedric had she known more about him, given 
that she considers herself to be more of a Hufflepuff type of 
personality





From iam.kemper at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 05:34:58 2009
From: iam.kemper at gmail.com (kempermentor)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:34:58 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
In-Reply-To: <gno2o8+7pvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go7u22+l8ij@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185946

> Alla:
> ...So basically imagine that you are single if you are not, and 
> obviously as you are, you are and if there is a character from HP 
> series you feel would be great husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend 
> material, please tell us and explain why **with canon examples** please.

Kemper now:
I likey me some geeks.  So I have to go for Coluna Lovey.

Colin Creevey is a Harry Potter fan, and so am I.  He and his brother
discuss Harry (I assume this to be true as they both attempt to alter
the "Support Diggory/Potter Stinks" buttons); my brother and I also
discuss Potter... though much less so now.  He is unabashed in this
geekdom.  As am I.  Without compatibility, there's no relationship.

Luna Lovegood is a nerd.  So am I... though I make it look way more
bad ass.  Luna is interested in conspiracy theories "Auror's are part
of the Rotfang Conspiracy..."; me too. She tells funny stories
(Quidditch commentary), and she laughs at Ron's jokes ("Baboon's...
backside!")  Without humor, a romantic relationship isn't worth having. 

I am lucky enough to have married a beautiful, hilarious Coluna, who
went to three Star Trek conventions as a young teen, became a RN, and
is now into the newest girlgeek, Twilight.  She thinks I'll like
them... I'm a bit doubtful.  Any guys read this book?  If so, please
comment over at OT-Chatter.

Kemper




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 27 08:12:12 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 08:12:12 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
In-Reply-To: <go6r4s+89nb@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go878s+5m4h@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185947

zanooda wrote:
> I think I would have chosen Bill Weasley :-). I don't have much time
> to write lately, so I can't give lots of canon examples, but IMO 
Bill
> is intelligent, brave, caring and even-tempered, he is sensitive
> enough, but not a sissy, and he takes charge, if necessary. He also
> has a trait that I value in a husband - he knows how to stand up to
> his mother :-), and he does it gently, but firmly. 
> 
> I like how well-adjusted Bill is, and I like the way he takes what
> happened to him. I mean, Lupin in these circumstances probably would
> have whined about it for the rest of his (or his wife's :-)) life -
> that she married him out of pity and that she shouldn't have or
> something like that. 

Joey:

LOL. :-) Good one, really! Yeah, I like Bill's personality a lot, 
especially the way he handled the Trio in Shell Cottage really 
impressed me - very caring yet not forcing them to reveal their 
secrets. I really can't see why a woman would not choose Bill for a 
husband, to be honest. 

zanooda wrote:
> The only trait that I don't appreciate in Bill is his good looks - I
> think it's not a very good thing for a husband, unless you are Fleur
> Delacourt :-). But if it's post-Greyback Bill, then it's OK :-). 

Joey:

I see what you mean. I somehow feel I may have hesitated because of 
the "cool" look he sports. I'd prefer a relatively conservative 
person, I guess. More of an issue with my taste than Bill's flaw. :-)




From happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 27 08:25:55 2009
From: happyjoeysmiley at yahoo.com (happyjoeysmiley)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 08:25:55 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
In-Reply-To: <go73k0+43l6@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go882j+qa9b@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185948

Potioncat wrote:
[snip]
> Neville probably gets first place, with Ron and Harry tied for 
> second. All of them are brave, caring, loyal. Neville seems to have 
> a bit more moral fiber. But maybe that's because we saw less of him.

Joey:

Neville is sure a cute choice. And, I'm really interested to know 
what instances made you feel he has a bit more of moral fiber. Would 
you please elaborate?

Alla wrote:
[snip]
> I mean if I would not have 
> seen them in the epilogue, then if I would have to project them 
> being older, I would have probably chosen Ron, but not Harry for 
> myself since love Harry as I am, he has issues and would probably 
> need lots of therapy after all he had been through.
[snip]

Joey:

Hmm. I understand your POV. Yet I think Harry managing to come out of 
a solid 10-year abuse and perfectly gel into the WW is a positive 
sign that he can handle wounds and scars in life much better than 
typical people. Also, his ability to forgive enables him to handle 
such major issues in a better fashion. Yeah, he might need a 
refreshing break but not a therapy, I suppose.

Harry certainly would have been a choice for me. Just that I find Ron 
more attractive. May be due to his sense of humour. :-) 




From magnolia11875 at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 26 20:43:43 2009
From: magnolia11875 at yahoo.com (magnolia11875)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 20:43:43 -0000
Subject: Hogwarts Class Schedule Setup
In-Reply-To: <go5h3u+jjcl@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go6utv+jk8k@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185949

Tabs:
> > I've been rereading all of the books and trying to figure out how
> > the classes work.  It almost seems to resemble something like a
> > college class schedule, but it also seems quirky.

Geoff:
<snip>
> I was involved for many years in timetable building  and these were
> quite a regular feature. A double class is quite simply what it
> says - twice as long as a standard class.
>
> In the school where I taught, the "standard" day was 8 periods of
> 40 minutes each.
<snip>



Thank you!

I created a mock Hogwarts schedule based on the vague information I
could pick up from the Lexicon and other resources and the only way I
could make all of the information make sense was to break things down
into eight periods in the day of forty minutes each, so I'm very
pleased by your post.  Your reply has been most helpful!

Tabs




From willsonkmom at msn.com  Fri Feb 27 14:07:50 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:07:50 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
In-Reply-To: <go882j+qa9b@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go8s3m+trvg@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185950

 
> Joey:
> 
> Neville is sure a cute choice. And, I'm really interested to know 
> what instances made you feel he has a bit more of moral fiber. Would 
> you please elaborate?

Potioncat:
As a 1st year, Neville stood up to the entire trio when he thought they 
were wrong. Ron couldn't do that when he was a Prefect against the 
twins even with Hermione in the lead. I can't give a specific for 
Harry, but I have a vague memory of his not standing up to someone who 
was making a bad decision.

Also, Neville refused to cast the Cruciatus, even took severe 
punishment for his action. Harry cast one in anger, when it made no 
sense to do so.






From joeydebs at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 27 18:29:38 2009
From: joeydebs at yahoo.com (Debi)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:29:38 -0000
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home to meet parents
In-Reply-To: <gno2o8+7pvt@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <go9bei+lrji@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185951

This is a tough question - I've agreed with, well, pretty much
everything so far!

What would I want in a life partner? I'd want someone I could respect,
someone who I could have good conversations with.

Who would I choose? Well, most of the men are attractive in their own
ways except perhaps the Slytherins - is that because they are genuinely
bad or because we only get to see the negative aspects of their
character through Harry's eyes?

Harry didn't really know Cedric - so we didn't get to see him. I do
like the idea of Cedric - he seemed embarrased by his father's boasting
before the Quidditch World Cup, wanted a re-run of the match the year
before when he caught the Snitch after Harry had fainted, he saw fit to
repay Harry for his help with the dragons and was willing to give up
the chance of victory for Harry. He appears to be pretty intelligent
and doesn't seem to have let the whole Goblet of Fire thing go to his
head despite overwhelming support for him.

Debi



From jnoyl at aim.com  Fri Feb 27 20:08:06 2009
From: jnoyl at aim.com (JLyon)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:08:06 -0700
Subject: Which Harry Potter character you would have wanted to bring home
Message-ID: <CBB17DA4-86E5-4E72-8D29-8D7201821A2A@aim.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185952

As a wife: Tonks (full of life and a real mother lion when it comes  
to protecting others). Nobody else in the books shows the potential  
to be as great a life mate as Tonks, nor to have such potential as a  
bed mate. She if fun, intelligent, strong (and not in the Womens'  
Liberation fake sort of strong which is mostly self-centered and  
bitchy), not controlling, rolls with life's blows, and doesn't blame  
others for how and where she is. My wife objects to her hair colors,  
but I have no problem with that as long as she lets me laugh at her  
choices sometimes.
Herms has her good points, especially when portrayed by Emma "I've  
been hot since I was 13" Watson, but she has a lot of Molly the  
Foghorn and an over-bearing, demanding, and nagging nature in her. It  
is too much her way or the highway.
Once you are past Herms and Tonks, you are really into secondary  
undeveloped characters. Fleur and Ginny are certainly not fully  
fleshed out (and in Fleur's case, that's a crying shame). The rest of  
the female cast are practically names only. In Ginny's case, just the  
facts that she allowed her first born to be named Albus Severus  
condemns her. Does she have any idea the hell those two purposely put  
her husband and supposed love through for their own enjoyment? Does  
she have any sense of what is best for Harry or is she just trying to  
be the "perfect wife" as taught to her by Mollycoddle and live in her  
dream world?
Luna, of course, is so unique that I would be drawn to be her friend.  
She could be a very interesting person to invite over for an evening  
of conversation and might just be a great one to fall in love with.  
However, her character is still shaped more by our impression than  
being a fully realized character.
The other female characters that I think would be interesting would  
be  Padma and Parvati. They both were thoroughly abused at the Yule  
Ball but got through it with relative grace and class and never  
seemed to shove it back in Harry's or Ron's face. They show some  
promise of being really great persons and well worth knowing. That  
fact that they are among the most beautiful of Hogwarts would just be  
a bonus. They seem like they could be very interesting to know. Of  
the two, of course, I would lean to Padma (as Parvati hangs around  
Lavender and talks about fashion and makeup too much).

As a husband: Bill. Never, ever, Ron. Won-won and Lav-lav seemed like  
a match made in heaven, except Lav-lev would be way too high- 
maintenance for Won-won to ever handle. I would accept if my daughter  
was "in love" with the lump, but I wouldn't expect the marriage to  
last (Hermione: Yes, child, Harry was always my best friend and my  
first real friend, but your father was just such a lovable oaf,  
calling me names, arguing, insulting, deserting us in our time of  
need. I just couldn't help myself but love him. After all, if not me,  
who?Besides, he needs someone to support him emotionally and  
financially).
The main thing going for Bill was that he was smart enough on his own  
to get the hell out of the Burrow as soon as he could and away from  
that poor excuse for a mother and establish his own identity. Now, I  
think that all parents are crazy (and I'm a parent so I can say it),  
but Molly is beyond anything I could put up with. She is domineering,  
demanding, self-righteous, worships authority and expects her  
authority to be worshipped, and has a very restricted view of what is  
good for her children (and every other child she runs into).
Harry, in books 6 and 7, is a totally useless wizard but still a  
really nice guy who will always treat his wife with care and love and  
wants so much to make up for the things that Bumbles did to him (to  
the point of actually forgiving and "understanding" why the man made  
his life a living hell and led him to self-sacrifice). He could be a  
good husband, but he needs several years of therapy to get over what  
Bumbles and Snape did to him. Just naming an innocent child Albus  
Severus is enough for me to want my daughter to avoid him. He is  
still in a world of self-pity and has no self-confidence.
Neville shows a lot of promise.

If I wanted an evening of entertainment, I might invite Arthur over  
(as long as Molly stays home).

JLyon



From willsonkmom at msn.com  Sat Feb 28 20:07:20 2009
From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 20:07:20 -0000
Subject: Chamber of ....Secrets?
Message-ID: <goc5ho+tbhp@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185953

I recently watched TMTMNBN--CoS. And, suddenly I wondered, why is 
Slytherin's hidden chamber called the Chamber of Secrets? All that was 
there was a big snake. I mean, that was enough. 

But why "secrets"? Why not The Monstor's Lair; The Horrible Chamber: 
The Hidden Menace? Even the legend (although I may not be firm on the 
canon) was that there was a monster in the chamber--not that there were 
hidden secrets. So why did wizards or JKR call it the Chamber of 
Secrets? Does anyone have any ideas on this?

Potioncat, who thinks the real Chamber of Secrets was DD's office.




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 28 21:56:11 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 21:56:11 -0000
Subject: Chamber of ....Secrets?
In-Reply-To: <goc5ho+tbhp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gocbtr+3o4o@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185954

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> I recently watched TMTMNBN--CoS. And, suddenly I wondered, why is 
> Slytherin's hidden chamber called the Chamber of Secrets? All that was 
> there was a big snake. I mean, that was enough. 
> 
> But why "secrets"? Why not The Monstor's Lair; The Horrible Chamber: 
> The Hidden Menace? Even the legend (although I may not be firm on the 
> canon) was that there was a monster in the chamber--not that there were 
> hidden secrets. So why did wizards or JKR call it the Chamber of 
> Secrets? Does anyone have any ideas on this?
> 
> Potioncat, who thinks the real Chamber of Secrets was DD's office.
>

Montavilla47:

I think it was probably called the Chamber of Secrets because it 
sounded cool.  




From montavilla47 at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 28 21:56:10 2009
From: montavilla47 at yahoo.com (montavilla47)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 21:56:10 -0000
Subject: Chamber of ....Secrets?
In-Reply-To: <goc5ho+tbhp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gocbtq+h9k2@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185955

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> I recently watched TMTMNBN--CoS. And, suddenly I wondered, why is 
> Slytherin's hidden chamber called the Chamber of Secrets? All that was 
> there was a big snake. I mean, that was enough. 
> 
> But why "secrets"? Why not The Monstor's Lair; The Horrible Chamber: 
> The Hidden Menace? Even the legend (although I may not be firm on the 
> canon) was that there was a monster in the chamber--not that there were 
> hidden secrets. So why did wizards or JKR call it the Chamber of 
> Secrets? Does anyone have any ideas on this?
> 
> Potioncat, who thinks the real Chamber of Secrets was DD's office.
>

Montavilla47:

I think it was probably called the Chamber of Secrets because it 
sounded cool.  




From gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk  Sat Feb 28 22:50:45 2009
From: gbannister10 at tiscali.co.uk (Geoff Bannister)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 22:50:45 -0000
Subject: Chamber of ....Secrets?
In-Reply-To: <goc5ho+tbhp@eGroups.com>
Message-ID: <gocf45+e40c@eGroups.com>

No: HPFGUIDX 185956

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at ...> wrote:
>
> I recently watched TMTMNBN--CoS. And, suddenly I wondered, why is 
> Slytherin's hidden chamber called the Chamber of Secrets? All that was 
> there was a big snake. I mean, that was enough. 
> 
> But why "secrets"? Why not The Monstor's Lair; The Horrible Chamber: 
> The Hidden Menace? Even the legend (although I may not be firm on the 
> canon) was that there was a monster in the chamber--not that there were 
> hidden secrets. So why did wizards or JKR call it the Chamber of 
> Secrets? Does anyone have any ideas on this?
> 
> Potioncat, who thinks the real Chamber of Secrets was DD's office.

Geoff:
Because it held a secret which presumably only the 
heirs of Slytherin knew about. Binns made a passing 
reference to some sort of monster but could not be 
specific. Little was known and the feeling of many 
people was that it was just a tale - Binns also 
commented that he did not believe that Slytherin 
had built even such a thing as a secret broom 
cupboard.

Bearing in mind that Slytherin left the school 
about a thousand years ago,in those circumstances, 
the story circulated among probably the wealthier 
and better-educated people of the day. Even they 
would have been superstitious and added to what 
little was known to weave a legend around the 
supposedly hidden chamber he had constructed.

My belief is that when you look at some of the 
place names which came about in those days because 
of legend and myths, the Chamber of Secrets name 
seems a good deal more likely than the mundane 
titles we bestow on similar things today. I can't 
see folk in the 11th or 12th century referring to 
"Sally's Dungeon" or something similar.
:-)