Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC: DH, EPILOGUE
Carol
justcarol67 at yahoo.com
Tue Feb 3 17:25:10 UTC 2009
No: HPFGUIDX 185637
Montavilla47 wrote:
> Hmm. I'm not sure we're supposed to think that Dumbledore's idea to
divert Harry from the Horcruxes and to the Hallows was a bad one. I
got the impression that this was supposed to part of his brilliant
plan. He gives Harry the information about the Hallows, but in such a
way that it takes Hermione several months to find out what they are
and that they are said to exist.
>
> In the meantime, Harry apparently acquires the needed maturity not
to choose to seek the Hallows and instead to continue the Horcrux
quest. But, at the same time, Harry has the knowledge that allows
him to recognize the Hallows and to become their master.
Carol responds:
Well, yes and no. He was already the master of the Invisibility Cloak
and he became master of the Elder Wand wholly by accident. And just
what would have happened if he'd ever possessed all three at the same
time and become Master of Death we don't know because he threw away
the Resurrection Stone before he faced Voldemort the first time.
But it just occurred to me as I read your post that Harry had to
become the master of the Resurrection Stone in order to use it.
Understanding that "I open at the close" meant that he, Harry, was
about to die enabled him to open the Snitch and use the Stone. Does
his ability to do those two things mean that the Stone recognized him
as its master? Certainly, his intended use of it merely to give
himself courage for his self-sacrifice (rather than trying to bring
back his dead loved ones for selfish purposes) made him worthy of it
in a way that Dumbledore was not, even if the stone hadn't been made
into a Horcrux and cursed. And, of course, had it not been for Snape's
message, Harry would never have been able to open the Snitch to get to
the Stone, so Dumbledore's "brilliant plan" was even more dependent on
Snape than I had realized (or Snape himself realized).
> Montavilla47:
> <snip> I still don't know how we're supposed to take that scene with
Snape in the garden. I'll give JKR credit for being deliberately
ambiguous here. Is Snape's "stricken" look because Dumbledore is
being so horribly offensive? Or is it because he realizes his
enthusiasm for the "brainy" House was what led him astray so many
years ago?
Carol responds:
IIRC, the remark about sorting too soon is made long before the garden
scene, at the point in GoF where Snape tells DD that he has no
intention of running away like Karkaroff and DD says that Snape is a
much braver man than Karkaroff. Maybe he should have left it at that,
a kind of left-handed compliment (much braver than Karkaroff is
comparable to much smarter than Goyle) that Snape could nonetheless
have recognized as true. (DD's compliments to Snape are always
understatements, anyway--cf. Snape's "timely action" in saving him
from the ring curse, though, of course, Snape wasn't present for that
one.)
As for Snape's "stricken" look, I think it's open to interpretation. I
don't think he's offended, just surprised and hurt as if DD had
slapped him--which, of course, is not DD's intended reaction. I'm
quite sure that he was speaking aloud to himself, and if he had said
directly to Snape, "You should have been Sorted into Gryffindor," he'd
have meant it as a compliment.
It's quite possible that he's right, that children between eleven and
thirteen or fourteen shouldn't be segregated into Houses or exposed to
the ideologies and rivalries of a particular House. Suppose that
Severus, Sirius, and James, three talented boys of the same age, had
met without the barrier of House rivalries and mutual prejudice to
separate them. Could they have become friends? Would Severus, who
certainly valued courage given his response even as an adult to being
called a coward, have wanted to become a Gryffindor? And would that
have been a good thing--Severus ("Batty" for his bat Animagus?) as the
fifth Marauder? An arrogant bully like MWPP but at least not tempted
to become a Death Eater? Sigh. Gryffindor in his era wasn't exactly
wonderful regardless of what Dumbledore thinks of his own House.
But back to Snape's reaction. He's surprised and hurt. That's what
"stircken" implies. Is he surprised that DD would implicitly insult
his House, evidently equating it with Death Eaters? (IMO, Karkaroff,
despite his name and his profession as Durmstrang headmaster, was a
Hogwarts student at one time and most likely a Slytherin.) Or does he
hate Gryffindor so much that he he's hurt by the idea of being Sorted
there? I think it's the first. Slytherin was a home to him and he
still has Slytherin friends, including the Malfoys. His experience
with Gryffindors, in contrast, has not been cordial. I suppose it's
rather like a man saying in the presence of the woman he's speaking
of, "She should have been born a man." In the speaker's mind, it's a
compliment. In the listener's mind, especially if she's happy being a
woman, it's both a compliment and an insult. But even that won't do
because men and women aren't traditional enemies. Maybe a Syrian
saying of an Israeli Jew, "He should have been born a Muslim" or vice
versa? I can't think of a good analogy, but, obviously, both Snape and
DD are thinking only of two Houses. DD has been speaking of courage.
Obviously, he doesn't mean that Snape should have been Sorted into
Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw.
To me, it's just another example of DD's tactlessness. He lectures
other people on their manners (Vernon Dursley and the Carrows, for
example), but his own could use some improvement. His sense of his own
superiority is part of it, I think, but old age may be part of it,
too. He says something to Harry in OoP about forgetting what it's like
to be young. He's forgotten not only what it's like to be a teenager
but what it's like to be in your mid-thirties (Snape is not quite 35
at the time).
As for Snape finally realizing that he'd been led astray long ago,
that's a thought that hadn't occurred to me. I don't think that
happens or we'd see a change in his attitude toward both the
Slytherins and the Gryffindors.
montavilla47:
> I mean, I don't think it would have made Snape's life much better to
have been sorted into Slytherin.
Carol:
Erm, Gryffindor, do you mean?
montavilla47:
> I shudder to think what it would have been like to have been stuck
in the same dorm with the Marauders for seven years. But maybe JKR's
message here is that Snape could have been a better person if he had
hadn't been sorted into a House that played to his evil side--what
with the Dark Arts obsession and all. <snip>
Carol responds:
I've already speculated on that possibility, at least on being Sorted
there after a delay in which he showed who he was through his choices
(talented and courageous) without early exposure to the Slytherins.
If, for example, he was Sorted after Lucius Malfoy had left the
school, that bond would never have been developed. And, of course,
we'd have to eliminate that nasty incident on the Hogwarts Express. At
least, he'd have been in the same House as Lily and her friends
wouldn't have objected to her friendship with him. But being Sorted
into Gryffindor immediately after having expressed a preference for
Slytherin and being in the same dorm room as the Marauders would have
been a painful experience. Maybe that thought accounts for Snape's
"stricken" expression! He's being compared to James and Sirius, his
longtime enemies, the latter not yet dead. Imagine his reaction to the
implication that maybe he's as good as they are! No wonder he looks as
if DD has just slapped his face.
Carol, who thinks that DD is right about Snape's courage but wrong to
tactlessly equate courage with Gryffindor in Snape's presence,
especially given his knowledge of Snape's antipathy for James
More information about the HPforGrownups
archive