Slytherin's Reputation was Re: CHAPDISC: DH, EPILOGUE

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 185654


> Montavilla47:
> 
> Um, yes. But didn't that all happen in the garden?  That was my
impression--that he and Dumbledore were talking in the garden during
the Yule Ball.

Carol:
Oh, sorry. I thought you meant the walk in the garden in DH when Snape
protested that DD took too much for granted and maybe he (Snape)
didn't want to do it anymore. But I don't think that the scene we're
referring to took place among the rosebushes. Snape watches as Fleur
ad Roger come in from the grounds. I picture Snape and DD standing in
the entrance hall or on the stairs. Not that it matters.
 
> Montavilla47:
> I don't know why you'd assume that Karkaroff went to Hogwarts at
all, let alone that he was sorted in Slytherin.  He seems to know 
everyone, sure, but that seems to be case regardless in the wizarding
world.  Everyone know everybody, except for Harry.

Carol responds:
I don't think he's from Durmstrang or he wouldn't have become a Death
Eater. He speaks English very well, not with an accent like Krum and
the other Durmstrang students. And when Dumbledore greets him as he
and his students arrive in GoF, he says, "Dumbledore, how are you, my
dear fellow, how are you?" which sounds as if he knows DD well and,
moreover, sounds like an Englishman speaking. (Sidenote: a lot of
other Hogwarts students and alumni have continental European names,
notably Malfoy and Lestrange. The Patil twins sound as if they're from
India. We can't judge the school they went to by their names alone.)
More important, Karkaroff adds, "Dear old Hogwarts. How good it is to
be her. How good" (Gof Am. ed. 247)--an odd thing to say if Hogwarts
is not his alma mater.

Durmstrang students in general don't seem to have much interest in
England despite Dumbledore's hopes for uniting the schools against
Voldemort. Krum is present for the attack on the Weasleys, but he
never joins in the fight as far as we know. Grindelwald may have had
his eye on England, but he went after continental Europe first.
Karkaroff, however, became a Death Eater--in England. Yes, he went to
Durmstrang to teach and became headmaster (no indication how long the
process took), but that was after he was let out of Azkaban and, no
doubt, wanted to get as far away from England as possible, not to
mention that he'd have had a bit of trouble finding work there after
his stint in Azkaban.

At any rate, I don't have any proof that Karkaroff is from Hogwarts,
but I think that "dear old Hogwarts" indicates that he is. And if he's
from Hogwarts, he was probably a Slytherin like most of the other
Death Eaters. He seems to be on intimate terms with Lucius Malfoy if
that means anything. (I'm not sure what to make of his beinf on
first-name terms with Snape, who seems to be considerably younger
given Karkaroff's gray hair in GoF. maybe he's Malfoy's age and
Azkaban turned him prematurely gray.)


Montavilla47:
> I agree that it's tactless, but I'm just not sure we're intended to
read it that way.  Dumbledore isn't talking to himself.  He's speaking
to Snape and he's speaking very gently, which says to me that he's
trying to be very tactful.  

Carol:
I went back to look at the conversation and I see why you think he's
talking to Snape. He says, "You know, sometimes I think we Sort too
soon." But "you know" isn't necessarily addressed to "you," the other
person in the conversation. It's more of a transition, like "by the
way," to his own train of thought. I still think it's more of an aside
than a direct comment to Snape like the remark that he's a far braver
man than Karkaroff. If he thinks at all about the effect of his words,
I'm sure he considers them a compliment. He turns away too soon to
realize that Snape sees them otherwise. I don't mean that he acts
angry as if he's been deliberately insulted, but he's clearly
surprised and hurt. That's what "stricken" means--and I think it's
quite perceptive of JKR to have him react that way. (We know that
*she* would consider it a great compliment to be Sorted into
Gryffindor, but she understands, as DD clearly does not, that Snape
sees matters differently.

Montavilla47:
> He's pleased with Snape's courage and determination to do the right
thing (even if he hates that stupid Potter kid). So Dumbledore tries
to come up with something complimentary to say about Snape and the
best he can come up with is that Snape isn't as cowardly and useless
as the House he was sorted into--and what a shame it was that poor
Snape was judged too soon.

Carol:
Maybe. But he's already said all the needs to say on the matter, that
Snape is a far braver man than Igor Karkaroff. Better to have left it
at that. (I don't think that DD thinks much about Snape's feelings at
all, frankly. He's all intellect himself and only occasionally becomes
angry or teary-eyed. He's not a kindly old man, always worried about
the effect of his words on others (though he can manipulate a crowd,
as shown by his speeches to the students). He doesn't understand
someone like Snape, who's always seething under the surface and would
probably give way to his emotions much more often if it weren't for
carefully cultivated self-control and Occlumency. Just my opinion.

Montavilla47: 
> Mind you, maybe JKR's intention is to get us to hate Dumbledore at
that point.  If so, she definitely succeeded with me. But--and maybe
this comes from years of trying to explain exactly what I found
offensive about Dumbledore's remark about Merope not being as
courageous as Lily--I get the feeling we're supposed to view
Dumbledore's compliment as a what he intends it to be and not as an
offensive slap.

Carol:
I'm sure that she didn't intend for us to hate Dumbledore, and I
don't. Well, not for that remark, anyway. I felt a lot of anger at him
after DH and I still don't like some of the things he did, but I don't
hold them against him. (I don't like the remark about Merope, either,
BTW.) It's hard to know what the author intended of course, but I
think we're supposed to understand that Dumbledore, like many tactless
people, means no harm. To him, being Sorted into Gryffindor is a good
thing, synonymous with courage and chivalry. And Slytherin is, well,
the House of Tom Riddle and his ancestor, Salazar Slytherin. It simply
doesn't occur to him that his valued teacher and spy, who loved Lily
Potter and has promised to protect Harry, might see the Houses more
than a bit differently.
> 
Carol earlier:
> > As for Snape finally realizing that he'd been led astray long ago,
that's a thought that hadn't occurred to me. I don't think that
happens or we'd see a change in his attitude toward both the
Slytherins and the Gryffindors.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> You make a very good point here.

Carol:
Thanks.

Montavilla47:
>  Unless the point of all that is that Snape is still too horrible a
person to be able to change and show the proper attitude toward
Slytherin and Gryffindor. <snip>

Carol:
Maybe, but I don't think so. It's "The Prince's Tale," after all, the
chapter in which she shows us who Snape really was. And it's these
memories that prompt Harry to defend the now-dead Snape publicly, to
Voldemort and the school and the people of Hogsmeade. No, I don't
think anyone would see his reaction, which is not anger or resentment
but pain at a perceived slap in the face, as an indication that he's a
horrible person. Gryffindor supporters may see him as deluded, but he
didn't start plotting revenge against Dumbledore for the accidental
insult. He must know that Dumbledore didn't do it deliberately.

Carol, glad to be discussing Snape instead of wands!