First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 185763

> SSSusan:
> > > My long-argued position has been that, since Snape knew Harry was 
> > > potentially The Prophecy Boy, he really needed, if he was going 
> > > to be an effective teacher, to set aside his petty grievances and 
> > > his biases and his anger and resentment and MAKE SURE this kid 
> > > learned all that he was capable of, that he reached his full 
> > > potential.  It was, after all, *vital* that Propechy Boy be as 
> > > prepared as possible to face down Voldemort.
>  
> Montavilla47:
> > But didn't Snape do that?  The most objective measure we have of
> > Snape's methods are the results shown in the O.W.L.s.  Harry 
> > received an E, which is the second-highest mark possible.  
> 
> SSSusan:
> To the best of his ability?  I don't believe so, no.  A teacher who 
> insults and berates and belittles most often does not draw out the 
> best work from a student... and we know he didn't from Harry, who 
> tended to shut down and/or just get angry in return, rather than 
> saying, "Okay, I'm just gonna buckle down and SHOW this guy he's 
> wrong about me!"  Nope, Harry wasn't that kind of student, and if 
> Snape really wanted Harry to learn, he'd have known that.  He didn't 
> care, tho, imo.  

Montavilla47:
Well, didn't Harry actually do his (potentially) best work when Snape
was angriest with him?  The one time Harry thought he really got 
a potion right was after the SWM incident.  Of course, any teaching
value that had was erased by Snape's so unprofessional behavior
when the vial was broken (whether he broke it or whether it was
broken accidentally).

Also, it was Umbridge, the most sadistic teacher at Hogwarts,
who pushed Harry into leading the D.A., which really caused him
to excel at D.A.D.A.  While Binns (who ignored his students) 
completely failed to engage Harry, and Trelawney (who treated
her students as dramatic victims) turned Harry off to the subject.
Slughorn, who praised and groomed Harry as a "genius" didn't teach
him a darn thing about potions. although I suppose he did teach
Harry how to manipulate and exploit other people's feelings.

> SSSusan:
> And I'm also talking about Harry learning not just classroom stuff, 
> but life stuff beyond it.  The inability to stick with Occlumency, 
> the "oops" with the potion -- these are not the kinds of things 
> teachers who are determined for a student to learn do.  IMHO. :)

Montavilla47:
I'm not sure we can blame Snape entirely for Harrys failure to 
learn Occlumency.  He's definitely not patient with Harry, but 
it's clear to me that Snape is trying very hard in the lessons.  He
does acknowledge when Harry makes progress, and he answers
Harrry's questions.

I think it's probably a difficult discipline to teach, especially when
you're under pressure to do it as quickly as possible, in secret,
with someone you can't stand and desperately want to hide your
feelings from, and with the knowledge that the Voldemort can
"see"  through the eyes of whether he chooses--since he might
happen to notice that you're actually working for the other side
and decide to kill you for it.

Those are Snape's obstacles.  Harry's obstacles include hating
his teacher on general principle, being royally pissed off at 
Dumbledore (who mandated the lessons), having been warned
by his stepfather that the lessons are only really an excuse for
Snape to torment him (like the detentions with Dolores), intense
curiosity about the visions he's receiving from Voldemort, and
the nagging feeling that he's better off seeing them since they
helped save Arthur Weasley's life.

A simple letter of explanation from Dumbledore might have
helped Harry immensely in seeing the value of the lessons 
(something Lupin didn't need to do in PoA).  I'd say the person
who really let Harry down in the Occlumency lessons was
Dumbledore.

> Montavilla:
> > And, I'm not sure that Snape knew about Harry having to face
> > Voldemort.  Dumbledore tells Harry that the eavesdropper (Snape)
> > only heard the first part of the prophecy, which might not include
> > the bit about "either must die at the hand of the other."
> > 
> > For all Snape knew, Harry might have already fulfilled the prophecy.
> > When Dumbledore got Snape promise to protect Harry, there was
> > nothing about protecting him in order to face Voldemort in the 
> > future.
> 
> SSSusan:
> Yes, that's true that he didn't know the second half, but by the time 
> Harry had been at Hogwarts a couple of years, he definitely knew that 
> Harry was in danger from Voldemort, and that it was very serious 
> business.  

Montavilla47:
I'd say that the first time Snape knew Harry was in danger from Voldemort
was either at the end of PoA (after Wormtail disappeared) or GoF (when
he knows that Voldemort is back).

I'm not really sure that Snape knew that Voldemort was on the back of 
Quirrell's head until he went to meet Voldemort in GoF.  After DH, when
we realize that Dumbledore kept most things to himself, I'm not at all
confident that Dumbledore would have told him. (Fun little surprise for
Snape when Voldemort tells him he heard Snape threatening Quirrell!)

Nor am I sure that Dumbledore would have told Snape about the 
prophecy about Wormtail running to Voldemort.  Heck, I'm not sure 
he would have told him about Sirius being innocent.  

> SSSusan:
> I guess I think of someone like Lupin here.  I know, I know -- it's 
> been argued by some that Lupin's method of teaching the Patronus 
> Charm wasn't all that explicit either (comparing to Snape's teaching 
> about Occlumency/Legilimency), but does anyone doubt that Lupin would 
> have done *whatever it took* for Harry to learn?  He stuck with 
> Harry, he was patient, he was encouraging -- all the kinds of things 
> a kid learning something new & difficult needs to help him along.  
> This is what I mean about Snape not doing all he could have.  He 
> proved incapable of setting certain things aside so that he could be 
> & do those things. 


Montavilla47;
Yes, Lupin was a better teacher.  It's folly for me to even compare the
two.  

Although, I think part of Lupin's duties that year were to help protect
Harry--and he didn't do that to the best of his abilities.  Not nearly.
He was supposed to take his potion every month and he didn't.  He was
supposed to help guard the school from Sirius Black, and he neglected
to inform Dumbledore that Sirius Black might look like a big black dog
or that there were several tunnels leading onto the grounds of Hogwarts
that Sirius Black knew about.

So, Lupin was patient and encouraging.  These are very good things.
But he was too dependent on what people thought about him to do
the right thing.  Nobody's perfect.  

> SSSusan:
> This is not at all to downplay the important things he did teach, the 
> important things Harry learned from *or* because of Snape.  I'm just 
> talking about effective instruction and a *desire* to teach a 
> particular student.  Snape was a grudging teacher of Harry and on 
> occasion was an impediment to his learning, in my view, along with 
> those times he did teach okay.  Harry was to blame, too, but, having 
> been a teacher of teens, I will always put the higher burden on a 
> teacher to get the ball rolling and to play fair.

Montavilla47:
And you are right to put the higher burden on the teacher.  But if you
are going to condemn Snape not teaching Harry enough, I think it's 
only fair to point out that Snape actually taught Harry quite a bit.