First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 185795

SSSusan:
> To the best of his ability? I don't believe so, no. A teacher who
> insults and berates and belittles most often does not draw out the
> best work from a student... and we know he didn't from Harry, who
> tended to shut down and/or just get angry in return, rather than
> saying, "Okay, I'm just gonna buckle down and SHOW this guy he's
> wrong about me!" Nope, Harry wasn't that kind of student, and if
> Snape really wanted Harry to learn, he'd have known that. He didn't
> care, tho, imo.

Montavilla47:
> Well, didn't Harry actually do his (potentially) best work when 
> Snape was angriest with him? The one time Harry thought he really 
> got a potion right was after the SWM incident. Of course, any 
> teaching value that had was erased by Snape's so unprofessional 
> behavior when the vial was broken (whether he broke it or whether 
> it was broken accidentally).

SSSusan:
And this is kind of my point.  Let's go with that example and see 
where it gets us.  For once Harry determined he'd better really focus 
and get the potion right.  He buckled down and he did so.  Even if 
Snape was incapable of praising or acknowledging the effort, he could 
have just accepted the potion and gone on without comment.  

Perhaps a corner would have been turned and Harry would've learned 
that, if he tried hard enough and shut up, they could tolerate one 
another.  But no, the vial "slips," Snape issues that "oops," and in 
an instant, additional damage has been done to their already damaged 
relationship.  

I've heard the arguments, but I'll never be convinced Snape did not 
intentionally drop the vial, and I believe JKR wrote it the way she 
did for us to receive the implication that he did so.  That was 
exceptionally childish and, as you said, it was unprofessional.  It 
wiped out any chance of turning things around.  So, see, Harry tried 
something different (heh – actually concentrating, working hard, not 
arguing), but Snape couldn't rise to the same level and, imo, made 
the chasm even greater by how he treated Harry.  WORSE than square 
one, then.


SSSusan:
> And I'm also talking about Harry learning not just classroom stuff,
> but life stuff beyond it. The inability to stick with Occlumency,
> the "oops" with the potion -- these are not the kinds of things
> teachers who are determined for a student to learn do. IMHO. :)

Montavilla47:
> I'm not sure we can blame Snape entirely for Harrys failure to
> learn Occlumency. He's definitely not patient with Harry, but
> it's clear to me that Snape is trying very hard in the lessons. He
> does acknowledge when Harry makes progress, and he answers
> Harrry's questions.

SSSusan:
I *don't* blame Snape entirely.  In fact, imo, the *first* Occlumency 
lesson was Snape's shining moment as a teacher of Harry.  While not 
patient by many people's standards, that was the most patient I think 
we'd seen him; and while not totally forthcoming (especially with 
explicit hints & suggestions), he did manage to provide some answers 
to Harry.  I was hopeful at the start of that lesson!  But, alas, due 
to a combination of Snape's & Harry's behaviors, and, I'd allege, 
their history, it went downhill from there.


SSSusan:
> This is not at all to downplay the important things he did teach, 
> the important things Harry learned from *or* because of Snape. I'm 
> just talking about effective instruction and a *desire* to teach a
> particular student. Snape was a grudging teacher of Harry and on
> occasion was an impediment to his learning, in my view, along with
> those times he did teach okay. Harry was to blame, too, but, having
> been a teacher of teens, I will always put the higher burden on a
> teacher to get the ball rolling and to play fair.

Montavilla47:
> And you are right to put the higher burden on the teacher. But if 
> you are going to condemn Snape not teaching Harry enough, I think 
> it's only fair to point out that Snape actually taught Harry quite 
> a bit.
<snip>

SSSusan:
But I *did* point out Snape taught Harry some things and I *didn't* 
blame Snape entirely!  It's right there in the quote above – "This is 
not at all to downplay the important things he did teach, the 
important things Harry learned from *or* because of Snape."  To me, I 
did acknowledge what Snape did.

I'm not speaking just to you, Montavilla, but I find that this has 
happened pretty much every time I've brought up my issues with Snape 
as a teacher – which is a position of criticism tempered with 
acknowledgment of some successes and definitely some fault on the 
student's part; that is, somehow it gets implied that I said Snape 
didn't do anything right and was totally to blame and Harry didn't do 
anything wrong.  That's not what I said and it's decidedly not what I 
meant.

However, in terms of a higher burden, let me mention this.  This 
started with "first lesson" so let me go back there.  Let's say 
you're 11 years old, brand new to this whole wizard and magic stuff, 
off to a new school.  You see a teacher who seems to be staring at 
you with, what's this?, loathing!  (Which turns out to be TRUE, I 
might add, not a figment of the kid's imagination.)  Then you get to 
this professor's class and he proceeds to humiliate and make an 
example of you, when you have NO idea what you've done wrong, why the 
guy detests you, nor how you were supposed to know any of this stuff.

It would seem to me quite reasonable to say that the *initial* 
problems here began with Snape, that he failed in the bearing of more 
of the burden, that he was largely to blame for establishing a 
pattern with Harry that Harry would then do his own part to 
exacerbate and continue.  Snape behaved poorly and did not give the 
kid a chance.  

Whether people feel he couldn't help it because he was so damaged 
inside, because it was so difficult to look at Harry and have to see 
both Lily and James – well, okay, that may be the reason, but it's 
pretty sad that he could not set that aside at all to see what the 
kid was all about.  A good teacher would have found a way, imo!  I 
taught teens myself, and I can tell you that if a kid walked in my 
class and I judged him and treated him a particular way based upon 
what I knew of some member of his family, that would have been just 
about as pathetic a thing as I could have done as a teacher
 beyond 
intentionally losing a kid's homework assignment or something. ;)


Zara:
> It seemed to me that Lupin did not want to teach Harry about 
> Dementors at all. It was only at Harry's insistence that he did so.

Alla:
> I cannot speak for Susan of course, but it seems to me that she was
> arguing that Lupin would have done whatever it takes if he felt 
> Harry truly needed it, be it Dumbledore who asked him or whatever 
> the reason was that Lupin would have thought that to be important.

SSSusan:
Alla nailed it for me (thank you).  It was that willingness that I 
was talking about.  It was also that Lupin would speak with Harry 
without nasty sarcasm or insults, would actually listen to him and 
was willing to consider what he had to say.  Snape could never do 
that with Harry (and probably wasn't exactly inclined to do so with 
any student, but never with Harry).   


Zara:
> Snape, on the other hand, had in Harry a student of Occlumency who 
> was completely unwilling to learn, and put no effort into the 
> classes. And while some part of that could be laid at Snape's door 
> based on their past history together, I think it unfair to blame 
> Snape entirely.

SSSusan:
Please see my remarks above.  I did not blame Snape entirely.


Montavilla:
> A simple letter of explanation from Dumbledore might have
> helped Harry immensely in seeing the value of the lessons
> something Lupin didn't need to do in PoA). I'd say the person
> who really let Harry down in the Occlumency lessons was
> Dumbledore.

SSSusan:
I totally agree with you on this.  A *big* "what if" is if DD had 
simply done this!


jkoney:
> I do blame Snape for not being able to adjust his teaching style. If
> a student isn't progressing with the first way you are teaching 
> there must be another way to get the point across so they can learn.
>
> Harry's learning style seems completely opposite to the way Snape
> teaches. He eventually learns to block Voldemort out doing the exact
> opposite of what Snape tells him. His way of handling dementors also
> is different.

Montavilla47:
> You're mixing up two different things here. Learning styles vs. 
> teaching style is different from Harry's way of blocking Voldemort 
> vs. Snape's method. Also, Snape didn't insist on Harry using on 
> method to block Voldemort's mind-probes. In fact, Harry was annoyed 
> because Snape didn't tell him exactly how to block Legilimency at 
> first--which argues that Snape was aware that there were different 
> ways to Occlude and was willing to let Harry find the method that 
> worked best *for Harry.*
> Now, maybe Snape should have tried using Lupin's trick. Instead
> of continuing to tutor the unwilling Harry, he should have suggested
> that it was too difficult, given Harry some chocolate, and told him
> to give it up.
>
> That would be employing a different teaching style. But, as your
> point that Harry's learning style is unsuited to Snape's style, I'm
> not so sure about that.

SSSusan:
I think there is something to what jkoney wrote.  It's of course true 
that teaching styles and learning styles are two different things, 
but I agree that a teacher *can* find alternate means of working with 
students when it's discovered that a student's not getting 
something.  Now, that does NOT sound like anything Snape would ever 
have been interested in doing for very many of his students!  Still, 
while I understand what's been presented about Snape not fully 
knowing how vital it was that Harry learn how to defend himself 
against Voldemort, I still maintain that by 2nd or 3rd year, he knew 
the kids WAS in danger and would likely continue to be in danger, 
that he *was* tied up with Voldemort and a prophecy and all of that 
stuff in such a way that it really would be important for the White 
Hat Cause to help ensure this kid learned everything he could, in the 
classroom and in life.  (That should NOT have Snape's burden alone, 
but let's face it, Snape was gifted, talented, and in a unique 
position as an ex-DE and a person in Voldy's inner circle to be 
especially useful this way.)

Still, back to Snape vs. Lupin and the Occlumency thing.  I know you 
were joking about taking Lupin's trick as his own, but the key to me 
was in the bit about different ways to Occlude and "letting Harry 
find his own way."  I don't see anything wrong, in principle, with 
letting Harry discover his own way
 but only *once* he's heard what 
those possible ways are!  Harry's told how very important this is, 
but then there was a lack of specifics from Snape, along with his 
quick annoyance & frustration with Harry, when he hadn't provided him 
with much background at *all* on this very complex and difficult 
Legilimency/Occlumency duo.  

That's where I would have liked to have seen, not Lupin's 
chocolate ;), but Lupin's relative calmness, patience & encouragement 
with his pupil.  

So in *that* sense I would argue that Snape's teaching style wasn't a 
good match for Harry's learning style.  If that makes sense.

 
Zara:
> I think Lupin's "trick" only worked because Harry wanted to learn 
> the specific skill he wheedled Lupin into teaching him. This was 
> clearly not the case with Occlumency.

SSSusan:
This is a good point.  I just think that Harry *was* interested in 
Occlumency, too.  He asked questions, he wanted to understand.  Snape 
cut him short at times and got quickly frustrated with him.  That's 
where, imo, their storied mutual bad history got in the way and it 
was essentially all over.   

Or, like Alla said:
> I mean, Harry did not want to learn Occlumency much. What I am 
> saying is that Snape contributed enormously to that unwillingness 
> and somebody more capable and more able to adjust to Harry's 
> learning style would be able to overcome that.
 
Montavilla47:
> I'm trying to think about another subject that Harry was unwilling 
> to learn, but I can't think of one.
> 
> Otherwise, Harry's ability to learn a subject seems dependent on the
> teacher. He excels at classes where he likes the teacher 
> (Tranfiguration, Charms, COMC, and Herbology), does an average job 
> in the subject where the teacher is so unremarkable that he never 
> talks about him/her (Astrology), and does poorly in subjects there 
> the teachers are boring or generally annoying (History and 
> Divination, although of course his grade is worsened in History 
> when he has to leave early).
 
Carol:
> Those things aside, I think that natural ability and enjoyment of a
> subject are as important with regard to Harry's performance in at
> least some classes as the teacher. Madam Hooch's teaching abilities
> are irrelevant to his learning to fly. He excels at it
.He learns 
> DADA, not because he has good teachers (with the exception of Lupin 
> and Snape,the DADA teachers range from mediocre to abysmal) but 
> because he's highly motivated
. He's also motivated by the Prince's 
> book. He likes doing well in Potions thanks to the improved 
> instructions (and getting credit where credit is not due), and he 
> also learns the spells almost effortlessly, motivated, it seems, by 
> curiosity and enjoyment (and, ironically, by affection for his 
> friend, the Prince). 

SSSusan:
I tend to agree with Carol, although I still think that, while 
*liking* the teacher wasn't necessarily going to be the big factor in 
whether Harry learned well, big-time *disliking* turned out to be a 
big factor.  The only professor he hated was Snape, and I believe we 
saw that seriously interfere with his interest in learning, and 
Snape's reciprocal hatred was a significant cause for that as well.

 
Pippin:
<SNIP>
> Dumbledore could certainly order Snape to act as if he liked Harry.
> But I really do not see how that would help.
 
Alla:
> First of all I do not need Dumbledore order Snape to act as if he 
> liked Harry. That would be nice, but I really do not think Snape is 
> capable of human kindness to anybody but Lily and maybe Malfoys?. I 
> want Dumbledore to order Snape to act as if he was ANY other 
> student in his class, would be nice if he included Neville and 
> Hermione in there.  I think it would help Harry to be much more 
> capable student if Snape refrained from his bullying and just 
> taught.

SSSusan:
You have to admit, it would have been interesting if DD had ordered 
that of Snape! :)

I think Alla has a point that DD could certainly have instructed 
Snape to treat Harry the same way he treated all the rest.  The 
problem was, his inclination was really to treat him differently 
(i.e., much more poorly & prejudicially).  I'd have liked to have 
seen Snape do a little tweaking of his methods to better meet Harry's 
needs, but honestly, I think I'd have settled for his just treating 
him the same – consistently, not openly begrudgingly, not sneeringly, 
the same.

Siriusly Snapey Susan,
who's remembering how hard it is to keep up at this place!