First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 185826

> > Alla:
> Any other 
> > example of Snape treating student the way he treats Harry during 
the
>  lessons (besides Neville and Hermione) and not outside the 
classroom?
> 
> Pippin:
> Snape says that most of his students are dunderheads, and he doesn't
> expect any of them to really appreciate his subject. Harry notices
> that Snape criticizes almost everyone except Draco. Hagrid confirms
> that Snape hardly likes any of his students. Demeaning and critical
> *is* neutral, for Snape. Not that I expect you to like him for it. 
But
> keep reading.

Alla:

I still have no idea whatsoever, whom else in the books Snape 
criticizes as much as Harry and Neville and we can throw Hermione in 
of course. Oh and of course I do not think Snape criticizes any of 
the Slytherins in the classroom. So demeaning and critical may be 
neutral for Snape ... as to Gryffindors that is, but of course that 
standard does not apply to any Slytherins at all IMO. And Harry takes 
the first place with the amount of demeaning IMO.

> > Alla:
> > 
> > He does not **know** anything about Harry's character yet Pippin, 
> > when he makes his *celebrity* comment. That is my point.
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> But Harry *is* arrogant, and Snape would have discovered that
> very soon. 

Alla:

In your opinion he is, in mine - not at all, I would describe what he 
does is that he is willing to stand up to bullies. It is not 
arrogance to me, it is standing up for what you believe is right and 
taking a stand.

Pippin:
It  would have rubbed him the wrong way even if
> Harry didn't physically resemble James any more than Draco looks 
like
> Dudley.

Alla:

And I would have **significantly** less problems with it if Snape 
arrived to this conclusion after teaching Harry say for a year. NOT 
after one lesson. Meaning that not that I agree that Harry is 
arrogant, but that if Snape after teaching Harry for a year came to 
that conclusion. I would still thought him to be incorrect, but hey 
over the year he would have observed enough of **Harry** for me to 
decide that he made such conclusion based on whom he thinks **Harry** 
is.


Pippin:
>And  Harry would  have been put off by Snape's cruelty even if
> it had never been directed at him, and no one had warned him about 
it.

Alla:

Quite possible.

Pippin:
> I don't think that Snape and Harry ever would have wanted to be
> friends, though they might have found it rewarding if they could 
have
> overlooked one another's failings. 

Alla:

The crucial difference between what you seem to argue and my view is 
that I would never put an equal burden for overlooking each other 
fallings on eleven year old student and thirty six year old teacher, 
never ever. What I think is that Harry and Snape could have been more 
productive if Harry would not have been antagonized against him since 
the first lesson. I do not know if they would have wanted to be great 
friends, but I speculate that if their five years relationship 
leading to occlumency lessons was different, those lessons could have 
been different too.


Pippin: 
> I think that JKR is saying that supposing someone has the
> characteristics assumed to be typical of their group is pretty 
normal.
>  And it's fair to assume there are typical tendencies in a group
> that's self-selected -- birds of a feather do flock together, after
> all. And it's natural that some tendencies are more appealing to
> particular people than others.
> 
> But it's  awful   to be so intolerant of a particular
> tendency that it keeps you from seeing the person who has it as any
> good at all. And it can be equally dangerous to be so taken with an
> attractive tendency that it masks everything that's bad.


Alla:

To apply it to first lesson you seem to be saying that JKR is saying 
that it is quite all right to assume that the child you never met is 
a swell headed celebrity, arrogant jerk and it is totally fine to 
treat him that way.

But it is totally bad if that child will not recognize that the 
teacher who feels that way has some good in him and can be a hero too?

Is that what you are arguing JKR is saying? If it is correct, I can 
only say, I hope she says nothing of the kind.

Pippin: 
> Snape could not recognize the things Harry had in common with Lily.
> Harry did not see how much Snape had in common with his hero,
> Dumbledore, until he was able to look past Snape's cruelty and sees 
his
> courage. And of course, he had to learn to look past Dumbledore's
> twinkly facade of harmless benignity, too. 

Alla:

And who should have been trying harder to see it? Eleven years old or 
thirty six year old? Because yes, Harry praises his courage, etc and 
as JKR said, Harry forgives him, but Snape loathes him till the very 
end.


Pippin:
<SNIP>
> I guess we  are never going to agree on whether students have the
> right to talk back to their teachers. <SNIP>

Alla:

No, we are never going to agree as to whether teachers have a right 
to talk to students who have not talked back to them the way Snape 
did to Harry. We are never going to agree as to teachers can make a 
spectacle out of the student on the first lesson if they did not give 
homework yet and said child only learned that the magic exists days 
ago (or was it weeks, still does not make much difference to me). We 
are never going to agree on that. I am snipping the example about 
Zacharia Smith talking back to Harry because I do not see the 
relevance. I am not disputing that quite often students should be 
punished for talking back to teachers. It is Snape's conduct that 
LEAD to Harry's answer that I find the most objectionable and in that 
light I do not find Harry's particular answer as bad (or cheek).


Pippin:
<SNIP>
> Nor does Harry think he should be lenient because Marietta had a bad
> situation at home. He points out that other people had a bad 
situation
> and didn't betray their classmates, and he might have said that 
others
> were offended with him and didn't think it gave them a right to act
> out in class. 

Pippin: 
> For all I know, Snape always picks out a student who talks back and
> one who creates mischief to punish during his first class, so that
> everyone will know what happens to students who act that way. He may
> not particularly care if the student in question is actually guilty 
or
> not, and he might have picked Harry just to show that no one, not 
even
> a celebrity, is above being punished in his class. <SNIP>

Alla:

You may know it but till I read about it in the book, I certainly do 
not. I cannot argue with your assumption, since I certainly make 
mine, but I will just say I am not taking it as anything more but an 
assumption.

I do not even see that this can be inferred from anything. He picked 
up on Harry for all I know because he hates him that much. It is 
shown that he can easily insult everybody, but I had not seen him 
picking *special* victim besides Harry, Neville and Hermione.



>> > Alla:
> > 
> > 
> > I thought Dumbledore had a perfect opportunity there to mend 
> > animosity between them if he gave a bit different speech to Harry 
at
>  the end of PS. 
> 
> Pippin:
> Did he really want to mend it at that point?
> He couldn't tell Harry the truth without breaking his agreement with
> Snape. <SNIP>

Alla:

What truth? I am saying that nothing would be at risk if Harry was 
told that Snape was doing his job as a teacher, that's all. But you 
get no argument from me, I am getting more and more convinced that 
Albus wanted their animosity to continue.

Potioncat:
It seems that many of the Hogwarts staff was eager to meet the son of
James and Lily---and it seems his fame as The Boy Who Lived played
some part in the teachers' eagerness. Flitwick, bless his soul, lost
control at the actual meeting. He didn't fall on purpose.

Alla:

Heh, of course not. I was saying that his fall was embarrassing for 
Flitiwick, not for Harry IMO.

Potioncat:
Snape was expecting a swelled-headed James Potter in his class. A
disruption by his very presence. He was diffusing the celebrity--at
least in his classroom.

Alla:

I am saying that Snape should have based any expectations that he may 
have of Harry based on *Harry* , you know?

Potioncat:
Was it nice? No. Was it right? Not sure. McGonagall didn't have a
problem with the celebrity, but she had a classroom of only
Gryffindors, and Harry's celebrity reflected well on her house.

Alla:

To me McGonagall was concentrating on the *lesson* she was indeed 
laying down the rules, that she is a tough teacher, to everybody, and 
everybody will suffer if they do not study hard. She was not talking 
about anything unrelated to the classroom at all. I loved it.


Potioncat:
I really enjoyed the way JKR slowly revealed the story over the 7
books. Knowing more about the Snape/Evans/Potter history helps
explain some of Snape's motivation.

Alla:

I enjoyed it too.

Potioncat:
 Although, I still find it
difficult to understand why Snape doesn't see anything of Lily in
Harry. Unless he also blames Harry for Lily's death.

Alla:

That is horrible if he does though IMO.

Alla