First lesson WAS: Re: Marietta, was Slytherin's Reputation

[jkoney65]

No: HPFGUIDX 185891

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol responds:
> How so? Maybe Serpensortia is one of those spells that a second-year
> can get right the first time he uses it, especially if he's 
motivated.
> (JKR is somewhat inconsistent in the mattering of mastering spells.
> Harry gets some right the first time and has to practice others. We
> don't see Draco learning spells at all.) Any time we see Draco and
> Harry casting spells at each other, specifically the time that Draco
> casts a tooth-elongating spell (Densuageo) and Harry casts a
> boil-causing spell and the fight in the girls' bathroom in HBP, they
> appear to be on the same level. If you can show evidence that Draco 
as
> a second-year is more advanced than Harry, I'd appreciate seeing it.
>

jkoney:
Serpensortia is a conjuring spell. That is beyond what the second 
years have been taught. Therefore it must be a spell that Draco 
learned at some other time. It wouldn't make sense for a second year 
to master an advanced spell by just hearing whispered to him.

We know that the Weasley's have done magic around their house and 
haven't been caught. How else we they know of Ginny's bat-bogey hex. 
We also know that they have extra wands around the house from 
deceased family members. That is how Ron got his first wand.

We also know that the Malfoy's don't believe the law applies to them 
since Lucius got off after the first downfall of Voldemort. Having 
Draco learn spells at home wouldn't be a far stretch to imagine. In 
fact Snape, who is friendly with the Malfoy's may have come over and 
taught him some things.

 
> Carol responds:
> "Most of the school" is undoubtedly an exaggeration given that
> Hogwarts has at least 280 students, an impossible number for even
> Snape to manage alone 

jkoney:
We know that JKR sometimes gets her math wrong. But she didn't give 
us some exaggerated figure. We were just told that most of the school 
was there. Considering that it was posted in a main area and that the 
students were fearful from the attacks, we can believe it when we are 
told that most (not all) of the school was present. If we don't see 
the Weasley twins, it's because they have a prime opportunity to get 
into some mischief with most of the school being busy.


> > Carol
> > > snip> 
> > > As you said yourself, he's an inexperienced wizard just like 
Harry.
> > > 

> > jkoney:
> > So Snape decides to pair up two students who don't like each other
> from two houses that don't get along. So Snape is either a complete
> idiot not knowing that this will get out of hand, or he is up to 
> something.
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> Well, we know that he's not an idiot, complete or otherwise, but we
> also know that he's protecting Harry. If he's "up to something," 
it's
> giving Harry much-needed experience. 

jkoney:
He can still be "protecting" Harry and be up to something. Such as 
having an advanced spell that he doesn't know cast at him, making him 
look foolish in front of the rest of the school. 

As for the much needed experience, this was supposed to be a learning 
experience and Ron would have been a better choice because there 
wouldn't have been any animosity mixed in. 

Carol:
That's what DADA is
> about--teaching kids to defend themselves against enemies. 

jkoney:
Exactly. First you learn the spell then you practice it. It's not 
taking free shots at someone who doesn't know the defense.

CArol:
Much later,
> in HBP, Snape is trying to get the students to do much the same 
thing,
> but nonverbally. One is supposed to cast a jinx or hex nonverbally 
and
> the other is supposed to block the hex nonverbally. When Snape sees
> Harry waiting, apparently forever, for Ron's hex to come, he steps 
in
> and either casts or pretends to cast a spell at Harry to make him 
cast
> a Protego.

jkoney:
Again Snape singles out Harry when no one else in the class was 
making much progress.


> jkoney:
> > When Lockhart chooses a pair of inexperienced students (probably 
> because they were close to him and he thought he could impress them 
> while an upperclassman would ignore him), 
> 
> Carol responds:
> As far as I can see, *all* the students present are inexperienced. 
We
> don't know, BTW, what kind of DADA teachers the older students have
> had, but Quirrell doesn't seem to have been as inept as Lockhart, 
and,
> according to Umbridge, he followed the Ministry-approved curriculum.
> It's probably safe to assume that he taught Protego, probably the 
most
> important defensive spell next to Expelliarmus, to the students at 
the
> appropriate level (fourth year?), which is probably why no older
> students appear to be present. As for why Lockhart chose Seamus and
> Neville, I agree that it was probably because they were close at 
hand,
> but that proves nothing one way or the other.
> 
> jkoney:
> 
> > Snape decides that two different inexperienced students should be
> chosen. Why does he do this? Either group of inexperienced students
> would do. But instead he makes Harry go up before the group, hoping
> he'll fail against a spell he doesn't know.
> 
> Carol responds:
> You keep repeating that assumption, but you're not providing any
> support. We know Snape's reasons for rejecting Neville and Seamus. 
He
> states them openly. As for choosing Harry and Draco, he has a 
special
> interest in that pair.

jkoney:
Since we know that the spell is more advanced than a second year, 
there is no reason to suspect that Harry could defend himself. 

Again, if they are all inexperienced than any pair will do. There was 
no reason to change. Snape insults Neville even though we don't have 
any reason to believe he's seen Neville cast a spell. After all there 
is no silly wand waving in his class.

He doesn't say anything against Seamus. So even if his reason had any 
validity, he only needs to replace Neville, not both of them.

So manuevering Harry and Draco together, rejecting the first pair and 
then having Draco cast an advanced spell means that Snape was setting 
Harry up to fail in front of most of the school. 



 > 
> Carol earlier:
> Why would Snape, who is *protecting* Harry, want him to fail 
against a
> spell he doesn't know? Protego will block any spell except an
> Unforgiveable Curse.
> 
> Carol again:
> You still haven't answered this question.

jkoney:
You are still under the misguided impression that protecting Harry 
and putting down/embarrassing Harry are mutually exclusive. They 
aren't and Snape uses his position as a professor to take cheap shots 
at Harry because he doesn't seem to be able to distiguish Harry from 
James. He also gets to do it without Harry having any ability to 
respond. 

So yes Snape can be "protecting" Harry but still put him down, or put 
him in situations that will make him look bad.

> 
> > jkoney:
> > "Don't move, Potter," said Snape lazily, clearly enjoying the 
sight 
> > of Harry standing motionless eye to eye with the angry snake."
> > 
> > That definitely seems like a set up to me. One designed to 
embarrass 
> > Harry and make him look bad in front of most of the school.
> 
> Carol: 
> > IMO, if we disregard Lockhart's inept contributions, we're seeing
> DADA as Snape would have taught it. He might even have become 
Harry's
> favorite teacher if he'd kept it up. Alas, the DADA curse and the
> whole Snape/Harry plot makes that impossible.
> > 
> > jkoney:
> > "favorite teacher"???
> > 
> > Harry would have ended up hating DADA and that would have been a 
> disaster for Harry and everyone else.
> 
> Carol responds:
> Well, we'll just have to differ on that. I think that Harry would 
have
> loved to have the chance to duel Draco in a classroom--with Snape's
> approval.

jkoney
Harry would have loved to duel Draco with any teachers permission. 
But we don't see dueling in any of the DADA classes that Harry took.
We did see how Harry responded to having Snape teach DADA. I think 
everyone can agree that he didn't enjoy it.