Wand allegiance.

[jkoney65]

No: HPFGUIDX 187292

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carol" <justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
>> Carol earlier: 
> > >[I see] no evidence whatever that the Elder Wand isn't working for LV before Harry's self-sacrifice
> 
> Eggplant: 
> > Nobody said the wand wasn't working for Voldemort, just that it was working no better than his old wand; it would have if he was the master of it.
> > 
> Carol responds:
> But where's the evidence that it isn't working absolutely perfectly? We never see it not doing exactly what he wants it to do. He just suddenly starts thinking that he needs to kill Snape to make himself master of the wand with no reason whatever for doing so. We don't even know if Ollivander talked to him about wand behavior as he did to Harry. If he knew how the Elder Wand "thought" and remembered something that Ollivander had said, or if we had seen it not working, fine. Instead, we see it kill a lot of DEs, create Nagini's bubble, clear the green potion in the cave and so on--it couldn't possibly work better than it did because it worked perfectly.

jkoney:
The evidence would be Voldemort stating that it isn't working any better than his regular wand. He would be the only one who could tell us if this wand is allowing him to perform more powerful magic, and he tells us that it isn't.


>snip

> Eggplant: 
> > Not defending that wand with everything you've got is a poor way to keep it out of circulation. And Dumbledore used that "evil" wand for half a century and certainly did a lot of good with it in that time. Harry should be able to do at least as well because even Dumbledore admits that Harry is the better man. 
> 
> Carol:
> Using it against opponents isn't keeping it out of circulation at all. Dumbledore was careful not to kill with the wand because he knew what it could do to the mind of a master who used it to seek power, not to mention that *every single master of that wand before Harry* was either killed or Disarmed, including Dumbledore. The wand doesn't make a wizard unbeatable. It just makes him a target for others who are equally deluded. You'd think the WW would learn that lesson and leave bad enough alone.

jkoney:
We know that whether or not Harry uses the Elder wand, if he is defeated the wand will submit to the one who defeated him. Why risk not using the best wand available? His wand is good the Elder wand is better. It doesn't make any sense to use the second best if the best is available.


> 
>  Carol earlier: 
> > > I'm not sure that "everyone" knows what happened  with the Elder Wand. [
] The anti-Voldemort faction probably didn't go around spreading the story of the Elder Wand.
> 
> Eggplant: 
> > Hundreds, probably thousands of people just witnessed an incredibly dramatic event and you expect every single one of them to remain silent about it forever? That just isn't going to happen. 
> 
> Carol responds:
> Yes, but of those hundreds of people (I don't think there were thousands, all were either DEs (now dead or imprisoned) or supporters of Harry who are not about to fight him or challenge him. If they think about the Elder Wand at all, they probably think of it as Harry's just reward. And witnesses of events like that are notoriously unreliable. If the story spreads, it will probably take the form of legend and be about as accurate as accounts of what happened with Sirius Black and the twelve Muggles. Rita Skeeter, who wasn't present, will probably publish her version. Harry will probably refuse an interview and state that he's said enough. (You know how accurate accounts in the Daily Prophet are--not accurate at all, even when Rita Skeeter isn't the reporter.)


jkoney:
you really believe that no one will ever talk about what happened? That's a pipe dream. They may not even mean to tell the story but the truth will come out. Who doesn't believe that someone like Seamus will be sitting around a bar having a firewhiskey or six when someone asks him to tell the tale of the defeat of Voldemort. All he has to do is tell the tale and answer some questions from the other patrons. Word will get around to others.

> 
> Carol earlier: 
> > > No one need know that he put it back in Dumbledore's tomb
> 
> Eggplant: 
> > Everybody knows the wand was once in Dumbledore's tomb and if somebody is looking for it again that would be the first place they'd look. 
> 
> Carol responds:
> "Everybody" knows no such thing. True, Voldemort said that he took it from there, but only a few hundred people heard him, and, as I said, none of them has both the motive and the opportunity to find it. Most people would either assume that he would use it or they'd assume that he'd hide it in some other place, for example, his Gringotts vault or Hogwarts. Besides, maybe Voldemort with his supposed loyal DE as headmaster can just enter the Hogwarts grounds to desecrate DD's tomb, but normally the grounds are protected. Unless you count Sirius Black, who was an Animagus and knew at least one still-secret passage into the castle, no other hostile person ever got into the school. (Lucius Malfoy was a school governor and the parent of a student, not an active DE, when he entered the school in CoS.)

jkoney:
Well hopefully no one else will become an animangus or no one will find another secret passage into the school. After all Filch knew them all, well except for the ones the Maruaders knew that he didn't and I'm sure they knew them all.

It seems to me that Quirril left the school grounds and he got back in.


> 
> Carol earlier: 
> > > someone (McGonagall?) could put a protective spell
> > > on the tomb so it could not be broken into
> 
> Eggplant: 
> > If it's so easy why didn't they do it the first time? Even Dumbledore admits that he can't cast an unbreakable protective spell. 
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
>snip> 
> But who in the WW has a motive to take the wand from the hero who defeated Voldemort? Everyone believed Harry was special even when he "defeated" Voldemort as a toddler. Now they know that he survived *another* AK and vanquished Voldemort permanently. They undoubtedly attribute powers to him that he doesn't have. Who's going to volunteer to fight him? Not Draco, that's for sure. And not Lucius Malfoy, either. And any other Dark Wizards that we know of are dead or in Azkaban.
> 
> Honestly, I'd do the same thing if I were Harry. But I'd find a career other than Auror because there aren't any bad guys left to fight.

jkoney:
Right, once you capture the bad guys no one ever takes their place. After the War to End all Wars, we never had another one.

Let's get real. There are always going to be bad guys because someone always wants power, wealth, etc. and they don't want to follow the rules to get it. Therefore there are always going to have to be good guys who will fight them. 


> 
> Carol earlier: 
> > > The only way to break the power of the wand and end the cycle is for Harry to die a natural death.
> 
> Eggplant: 
> > Historically a great many people are more than willing to kill to get that wand, so if Harry wants to die in his bed of old age he'd better have the most powerful magic available to defend himself.
> 
> Carol:
> snip>

> With Voldemort dead, where's the Dark Wizard willing to take that kind of risk?

jkoney:
If they thought that after Grindelwald they were sadly mistaken.

As I said above there is always going to be another bad guy. The way for him to make his name is to kill Harry Potter. (Think of Henry Fonda in My Name is Nobody, or John Wayne in the Shootist, or even Wild Bill Hickock) Harry has a bullseye on his back whether he wants to admit it or not. 


> Snip

> Eggplant:
> > 
> > But I just don't understand why a writer would even want to try to convince a reader that any of these crazy logical convolutions were realistic. Why not simply have Harry keep the wand? If that means that Harry is condemned to lead an interesting life and the 19 years before the epilogue have not been completely uneventful then so be it.
> 
> Carol:
> And I just don't understand why any reader would want Harry to use the Elder Wand. It's not quite the One Ring, but its bloody history needs to be ended, and Harry wants a peaceful life with his family. The last thing he wants is to spend it fighting to keep the mastery of the Elder Wand.
> 

jkoney:
Dumbledore managed to use it for fifty years without a problem. Harry's will is just as strong and he's a better person. Why people wouldn't want him to be able to protect himself to the best of his abilities is beyond me.