Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner?

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 187423

> Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
> I beg to differ.
> 
> We see that Snape doesn't care much for his father (when he's ten), not that
> Snape desires or contemplates any sort of vengeance towards his father.
> 
> We see Snape (in a moment of heightened emotion), accidentally harm
> a muggle, Petunia. He is described as scared and ashamed immediately
> afterward, denying that he even did it at all, let alone intentionally. I don't
> see any evidence of vengeance there. If he is acting in vengeance, his reaction
> shows no satisfaction.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I do not see any evidence of vengeance either in his demeanor here. What I do see however is the early evidence that Snape belongs right there with Slytherins. I do not see evidence of vengeance, what I do see however is the evidence of sneakiness. 

Montavilla47:
I'll give you the sneakiness.  What I was arguing against was a charge that
Snape's entire life centered around vengeance.  

Alla:
I think we established that Snape is a good actor (except where James and Harry are concerned), so sure IMO of course he would play being all ashamed of himself, etc. Why? I speculate to make an impression of Lily. I also think that he is already jealous of Petunia and this is what caused this accident too. He may not show satisfaction on his face, but I think it is very likely that in his heart he was very satisfied.

Montavilla47:
I won't dispute that Snape is a good actor, but his talent doesn't seem 
to lie in crying crocodile tears.  He seems to always be downplaying 
his emotions, except for that spectacular tantrum he threw in PoA--
and that seemed completely genuine.  

Hiding your emotions and drawing up emotions on command are 
different things.  Being good at one doesn't mean you're good at the
other.  In my experience, the opposite is true.  Being good at hiding
your emotions makes you terrible at displaying ones you don't have.

Even if Snape was happy at Petunia's distress, he was quite unhappy
at Lily's reaction.

Alla: 
> Petunia after all his rival for being Lily's playmate, etc. I do not like Petunia, never did for her behavior to Harry, but I do see her as victim here.

Montavilla47:
Perhaps you would be less sympathetic if she were being eaten
by a snake?  Or if the thing hitting her on the head were a glass
of mead?

;-)

> Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
> I don't see that Snape hates muggles. He hates Petunia, but then, so does
> everyone except Lily. <SNIP>
> 
> Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
> I don't see that Snape hates muggles. He hates Petunia, but then, so does
> everyone except Lily. <SNIP>
>
> Alla:
>
> There is also his hesitation to Lily's question and of course him joining DE.
We do not know of course the exact reasons why he joined, but I think that it is
not a huge leap of logic at all that he joined because he just may have liked
the ideas of the organization that he was joining a lot.

>Magpie:
>Doesn't he say something like "she's only a Muggle" when Lily complains that
>Petunia's mad at her?

>I don't get the impression he has a burning hatred of Muggles (though I would
>think his Half-Blood Prince identity to him is clearly the superior half and the
>inferior half) but I think even at his youngest he's got the basic Wizard
>disdain for them that only would have gotten more pronounced at Hogwarts and in
>Slytherin.

>For Muggleborns--who knows? I don't think he hated them either, probably, but I
>think he probably thought he was superior to them as a Half-Blood.> 


Montavilla47:
I'll agree that he thought he was superior to both muggles and 
muggle-born.  But that doesn't mean he hates them.  That's 
because I'm drawing a line between contempt and hate.  But I 
don't want to insist on that line.  If you choose to put contempt 
and hatred in the same basket, then it's hate.  I just don't see
those two things as exact equivalents.


> Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
> Where does Snape ever show hatred for muggles? Except for that moment of
> heightened emotion, where he calls Lily a mudblood, the only thing he does is
> condone his friends teasing a muggle-born girl. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Only if "mudblood" is considered teasing, but I get the impression that it considered to be much more than teasing and as I am sure I said before that I think that under stress person often shows his true colors and a lot of bad things that person has control over when he is calm may come out to the general public. IMO of course.

Montavilla47:
It was considered more than teasing to Lily.  How it looked to
anyone else is anyone's guess.  And Lily seems quick to jump to
other people's defense--unless she's attacking them.  

I'm not trying to minimize whatever it was that happened to 
Mary McDonald.  I just don't know if it's better or worse than,
say, James enlarging someone's head, or Draco enlarging 
Hermione's teeth, because it's not specific and because the 
person getting outraged at it has gotten outraged about 
five times in the same chapter from things ranging from
childish insults to bodily harm.

> 
> Montavilla47:
> Right, but there's no indication--ever--that Snape saw this as an
> opportunity to rid himself of his rivals for Lily. Dumbledore's contempt is
> based on Snape's indifference towards James and Harry, not any hidden or
> blatant desire on Snape's part to free up Lily for himself.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I know we had been through this, but I think that the fact that he does not care for their lives indicates in itself that he may have wanted Lily for himself, no reminder from Dumbledore needed.
> 
> And here is a question I wanted to ask when we discussed it last time, but I do not believe I did. People are sure that Snape did not talk to Lily after that scene and before her death and in fact never saw her. Where does it say so in canon? For all I know Snape stood under her windows for hours and hours, watching her, etc and wishing that he could have had her and wishing for James to die asap, etc.
> 
> Where does it say in canon that Snape never saw Lily after they had that apology scene?

Montavilla47:
As far as I know, canon doesn't indicate either way.  Perhaps
Snape and Lily did make up.  Perhaps they had a torrid affair
and Harry is really Snape's son.  Hehe.

But, since the Prince's Tale shows this apology scene as the 
last one in the series, storytelling traditions support the notion
that, even if they did speak again, nothing in their relationship
changed from that point onward.