Snape's Psycology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner?

[Beatrice23]

No: HPFGUIDX 187434


> <snip>
> > > Kemper: Harry regains his self control immediately after the Crucio, that's true.  But there's no need for Snape to regain self control even after Harry casts cruios and sectumsempras at him during the Flight of the Prince. There's no need to regain the self control because Snape never lost it.
> > 
> > Beatrice: Perhaps that is the worst part of Snape's action, that he doesn't lose self-control.   Harry uses sectumsepra in essence, because he doesn't know what it does.  It is a spell that pops into his head as he is in full "fight" mode and as soon as he sees what it does he immediately regrets his actions and punishes himself emotionally for a long time after.  
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Um.  No, he doesn't.  Harry feels bad for about ten minutes, while Draco
> is lying on the floor bleeding and Snape is healing him.  Then, when
> Snape returns from taking Draco to the Hospital Wing and begins 
> questioning Harry, that guilty feeling is transformed into defiance and
> anger.
> 
Beatrice: If I remember correctly, Harry is trying to protect his book, not avoid taking responsibility for his actions.  In fact, Harry never defends his actions (other characters point out that Draco was about to use an unforgivable curse on Harry, but Harry never makes excuses for himself).  Harry does defend the "Prince," ironically Snape, when Hermione starts condemning the book again.  Harry mentions several times how horrible he feels and even indicates that he deserves to have detention every Saturday for the rest of the year for what his curse did.  Also, it might be important to note here that when Harry sees what his curse does he yells "no!" and tries to stop the flow of blood not run away or make excuses for himself.

> Later on, when Harry discusses it with his friends, he's mainly annoyed 
> at Hermione for being shocked and blaming the Prince, and relieved
> that Ginny is defending him.  Any other guilt he might feel is 
> transfered to the Prince for "betraying" Harry by inventing the spell in
> the first place.

Beatrice: See above.
> 
> Beatrice:
> And most importantly he NEVER uses it again. 
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Yes he does.  He uses it in the cave when he's surrounded by
> Inferi.  It doesn't work on them, of course, but he's incorporated it
> into his repertoire of spells.  As Hermione later incorporates the 
> Muffliato spell she scorned in HBP.

Beatrice:  Sure, but can you harm a dead body?  What I meant to say is that he never uses it on a human being again.  How Harry managed not to soil himself during that inferi attack is beyond me.  He uses that spell because it is the worse thing he can imagine.  What I was trying to say is that Harry may use these terrible curses, but for the most part he tries not to repeat his mistakes and feels badly for harming anyone even if it is necessary (perhaps Carrow is the exception here - but we don't know what Harry feels in the aftermath of the battle).  Snape on the other hand, is more like a soldier/warrior who - or at least in the one battle we truly see him in action.  We see him use a spell whose effects he is very familiar with and Lupin even tells us that Sectemsepra "was his speciality."    
> 

> 
> Montavilla47:
> Crucio is an unforgivable curse, and it's only purpose is to cause pain.
> Sectumsempra is a spell not currently approved by the Ministry 
> (whatever that means) and "Dark Magic" (according to Snape who ought
> to know).  "Dark Magic" and "Unforgivable are not the same thing.

Beatrice:  Just because there are only three "unforgivable" curses as detailed by the Ministry  (See my eyes roll at the word Ministry)  doesn't mean that there are things that should not be done.  Perhaps Sectumsempra is not on the list because it is not a widely used or known spell.  Or perhaps because the Ministry needs to leave some spells open for people to defend themselves.  Or perhaps their government is just as efficient as muggle governments.  The MoM doesn't place the spells for creating Horcruxes on this list either, but while you can learn about the three aforementioned curses Hermione can only find information on Horcruxes in one book in the restricted section not removed by DD and that book refuses to do more than mention how horrible it is and 

> Beatrice:
> Harry, to me is more worthy, because he may act on his emotions and make mistakes, but he knows that they are his mistakes and he regrets them (or most of them).  Also, when Harry learns of the Elder wand he desires it so that he can save himself during his final battle with LV.  He does not desire it to bring about LV's destruction.  It is a fine line, but I think an important one.  
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Harry's survival is Voldemort's destruction.  If Harry is "merely" hoping to
> survive their encounter, then he's denying his entire quest.
> 

Beatrice:  The only time Harry indicates that he must kill LV is with horror.  Harry only ever talks about surviving and ending LV's reign of terror.  Not the least part of which is because the author wants us to wonder how Harry is going to be able to do this without tearing his soul...


> Beatrice:
> While we don't know if Snape desires the wand at all, there is a part of me that believes that Snape's actions while heroic are ultimately acts of vengeance first against his abusive, muggle father; then against his romantic rival, James; and finally, against the person who murdered the only person he ever loved, LV.  Harry, on the other hand, only ever seeks vengeance in moments of heightened emotion.  In contrast to Snape, whose entire life centers around vengeance. 
> 
> Montavilla47:
> I beg to differ.  
> 
> We see that Snape doesn't care much for his father (when he's ten), not that
> Snape desires or contemplates any sort of vengence towards his father.
> 
> We see Snape (in a moment of heightened emotion), accidentally harm
> a muggle, Petunia.  He is described as scared and ashamed immediately
> afterward, denying that he even did it at all, let alone intentionally.  I don't
> see any evidence of vengance there.  If he is acting in vengence, his reaction
> shows no satisfaction.
> 
Beatrice:  I disagree here, but I think that Alli answered this point really well. 

> When James and Sirius attack Snape, he acts in a moment of heightened 
> emotion.  There is only that remark about Snaoe "giving as good as he 
> got" to indicate that Snape acted vengefully toward James at any time.  
> Which is no more vengeful than Harry and Draco firing spells at each 
> other in nearly every book, or Harry making Goyle's toenails grow.

> 
> Montavilla47:
> There are a number of Snape fans who feel that Snape's life
> has been hogtied by his obligation to Dumbledore--an obligation 
> motivated by a desire to protect, not a desire for vengeance.
> 
> But Snape is not nothing once Voldemort is dead.  Snape is 
> a genius at potions and a knowledgeable opponent of the 
> Dark Arts.  He was ambitious.  Without the need to channel
> that ambition into destroying a great evil, he could use it to
> invent new spells or potions or publish textbooks in either 
> Potions or D.A.D.A.
> 
> He doesn't seem to like teaching that much.  At least not
> Potions (he seems a lot happier to me teaching D.A.D.A.), 
> but there are any number of other professions he could 
> take up--such as cursebreaking for Gringotts--and many
> brilliant projects he could undertake.

Beatrice:  Don't mistake me here.  I suppose there are lots of people like Snape who walk around just fine.  I was really talking about a larger literary pattern of character development the idea of characters who are both driven by losing people they love - but are unable to love again, and those who are consumed with vengence.

> 
> > Beatrice:
> >  I don't know that Snape's "initial selfish desire" has changed at all.  When we first see him as a child, his desire is Lily and only Lily.  Snape is willing to do whatever he needs to do to be close to her and to separate her from other (eg. Petunia).  Snape already hates muggles, but makes an exception for Lily.  
> 
> Montavilla47:
> I don't see that Snape hates muggles.  He hates Petunia, but then, so does
> everyone except Lily.

Beatrice:  Okay, why then become a Death Eater?  Surely not for the health benefits?  The snazzy uniforms?  Sorry I don't mean to be flip here or to disparage your argument which although I disagree, is nicely constructed.  What I am trying to say here is that Snape must agree with the ideology here, even if he is deluding himself to thinking it is "for the greater good."  Even Lily points out that Snape calls everyone of her birth "mudblood" and only seems to make an exception for her.
 
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Really?  When does Harry show any love towards muggles?
> 
Beatrice:  Love?  Well, maybe not love, but he is certainly disguisted by their ill treatment (too many points to mention here.)  He even saves Dudley' life in OotP and helps the Dursleys who wouldn't lift a finger for Harry go into hiding.

> Montavilla47:
> I agree with you there.  Harry is definitely more compassionate than
> Snape about that.  Although, I'm not sure there needs to be a contest.
> 
Beatrice:  Well, I thought we were measuring their worth for the wand?

> Beatrice:
> When if ever does Snape show compassion for anyone other than himself and Lily? 
> 
> Montavilla47:
> When he swears an unbreakable vow to Narcissa to protect her son.  In 
> contrast to Dumbledore, Snape vows to protect Draco without asking 
> anything in return.

Beatrice:  On DD's orders.  We know that DD has already injured his hand when Snape make the unbreakable vow from (DH) and DD gives Snape his orders on the night that he is injured.  AND DD's orders are as follows; Stay undercover as a DE, do whatever you need to to make it believable; Kill DD to save Draco's soul; protect Draco Malfoy from LV and from himself (as he is still just a young man and may live to regret his choices); etc.  There is more but these are the most important points

> 
> Beatrice:
> Even in death Snape only has a moment of looking at Harry's eyes, Lily's eyes before he dies.  Throughout his life, Snape seems motivated by his own selfish desires, no consumed by them and his horrible prejudices.  
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Yes, he *seems* that way.  That's because the author is playing a 
> twist on us.  The whole point of the Prince's Tale is to show us that
> Snape, who seemed to be motivated by envy, selfish ambition, 
> horrible prejudice and vengeance, was instead motivated by love.
> 

Beatrice:  Love, yes...but unlike Harry it is really only one person that he seems capable of loving.  Maybe you could argue that he loves Dumbledore, but he really has very little kindness in him unlike Harry.  Don't mistake me, I feel for Snape, I really do.  I just think that he is terribly damaged as a character, terribly interesting, too...