Snape's Psychology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner?

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 187469

jkoney:
> Atonement for his actions would be more believable to people if he had done it
without Dumbledore roping him into it. Also if he done if for Harry and not just
for the memory of Lilly. <SNIP>

Julie:
I don't see how it would be more believable, given Snape's
character at the time. He *was* a working Death Eater, so to
speak. That he had a change of heart for any reason is a
bigger leap than any other Death Eater took. <SNIP>

Alla:

I would agree that Snape's sudden change of heart, him thinking something like , oh dear I just realized how horrible I had been, I must go to Dumbledore and must atone will not be believable. I mean, obviously I just stated the gist of what I think will not be believable, it does not have to be in the same words.
However, I really do not see how Snape's *slow* change of heart will not be believable. I am talking about the scenario when he comes to Dumbledore and I suppose to the question why are you here or something like that tells Dumbledore couple sentences about him slowly realizing how horrible of a mess he got himself into and realizing that he is not cut out for torturing and murdering innocents, etc. Do you see what I am saying? This sort of change of heart even if it occurred off page and we would just learn about it I would believe.

And I guess I do disagree that when he came to Dumbledore he took a bigger leap than what any DE took. I suppose I do not see what he did as that much different of what Narcissa did when she came to Snape to beg for Draco's life. I know, I know, analogy is not exact, but to me it is close enough, because really neither action to me requires of the begger to abandon his views. 

But certainly I agree that Snape learned that killing people is wrong over the years.

Pippin:
I think most people with something serious to atone for have to be roped into it
at first. If their judgment was good enough to recognize the full extent of
the wrong they were doing, they probably wouldn't have done it in the first
place.

Alla:

So, most people who did something wrong cannot figure it out until somebody forced them to do it? 

Pippin:
Snape did not come to Dumbledore to clear his conscience but only to persuade
Dumbledore to save Lily. He does not feel any concern, still less remorse, for
the harm that threatens Harry or James.

Alla:

Exactly.

Pippin:
Snape wouldn't have understood at the time that Dumbledore was already doing all
he could with the resources he had, and the only thing that could be done to
make Lily or anyone else safer would be to increase those resources -- by 
enlisting Snape.

Alla:

Well, I guess I am with Snape here (oh dear, did I just say that?), I also did not understand that Dumbledore was already doing everything he could to save Potters. I mean, it is not like Potters were already asked to go into hiding before Snape came to Dumbledore, right?

It felt to me that Dumbledore enlisting Snape was his first action not the continuing effort to save  Potters.

Pippin:
After Lily died, Snape still was not thinking of clearing his conscience. He
only wanted to die, not caring or perhaps not knowing that he would take the
pain of his torn soul with him. I don't think he believed that any atonement was
possible. But Dumbledore asked him to protect Harry so that Lily would not have
died in vain.

Alla:

Suicidal man, Pippin, he is clearly portrayed as suicidal man. And instead of showing him some kindness, at least telling him that yes, Order needs his services, but take time before you decide or something like that Dumbledore coldly manipulates him into his service.

I will be the last person to say that Snape did not deserve what Dumbledore did, but OMG I thought Dumbledore was despicable here.

And no, I do not think he was concerned one bit about Snape's soul here. With him asking Snape to kill him in HBP he showed me the exact opposite.

Pippin:
I don't think Snape ever grew to care for Harry, but he did learn to value other
lives than Lily's, even the life of his old enemy Lupin. <SNIP>

Alla:

I would agree with this yes.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
The Gryffindor kids hate that Snape's unfair, but nobody, even Harry, ever says
that he'd be a better teacher if he was fairer. A better role model as a human
being, certainly, but it's abundantly clear that Hogwarts does not consider that
when hiring staff.

Alla:

Sorry, but "kids complain that teacher is unfair" means to me that yes, he would have been better teacher if he was fairer.

Just as when I say that I complained that one of my law school teachers used to come to lectures drunk, you bet that means that I thought he would be a better teacher if he was not drunk LOL.

It would be redundant IMO to spell it out.

And sure Hogwarts hired some unfair teachers (which I maintain Snape is on top of the list, but opinions differ of course), however they also hired some very fair ones IMO