Draco and Intent: Re: Snape and Harry’s Sadism (was: Lack of re-examination)

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 186817

> > Montavllla47:
> > In other words, it wasn't impossible for Harry to become friends with Draco,  but it would have required that Draco modify his values to include respecting Ron and Hermione--even if he wasn't cordial to them.
> > 
> 
> Pippin:
> Right. But the reader is supposed to respect Ron and Hermione, and should feel that Draco needs to modify his values before he can be a worthy friend. 

Montavilla47:
Yeah, but I don't see how that translates to the reader having to conclude that 
friendship between Draco and Harry is impossible.

Look at the first meetings between Eliza Bennet and Fitzwilliam Darcy.  Darcy
insults Eliza's town, her family, and her looks.  He obviously thinks himself
above all her friends  He persuades his friend to drop Eliza's sister, Jane,
causing both the friend and Jane real emotional pain.

But eventually Eliza and Mr. Darcy come to enough of an understanding to 
get married.  Mr. Darcy, I might add, does not exactly reject everything he 
was taught to believe by his familiy, but he does modify his views.

So does Eliza.

Likewise, in my earlier comparison to Buffy, Cordelia doesn't reject 
everything she believes, she simply modifies to her views enough to 
get along with the uncool Willow and Xander.  Nor to they stop thinking
that Cordelia is a stuck-up Queen Bee.  They just get past that.

It's a very common trope--probably because it's such a common
human experience.  Especially in the U.S., we tend to meet people in
school who have very different backgrounds and values from the ones
we were raised with.  It's far more common for people to learn to 
get along with their differences than to spend years hating those with
contrary views.



> > Montavilla47:
> 
> > So, it's not exactly Draco who finds the Weasleys unbecoming, but Draco trumpeting the classist views of his father.  And those views could have been changed--unless children's minds and souls really are set in stone  at eleven.  
> 
> Pippin:
> Yes, they could have been changed. But Draco doesn't *want* to change,  and canon shows us why: because it would mean turning completely against his family, whom he loves.
> 

Montavilla47:
Well, normally when a character in a story changes his mind or feelings, there's
some kind of event to trigger that change.  So, while I don't see a reason for 
Draco to change his views in PS/SS, there could have been any number of story
events that would have led him to a change.

Like not succeeding in a misguided attempt to kill the Headmaster, or losing
the love of his life, or having a loved one threatened.

Both of these events led to changes:  the first in Draco, the second in Snape,
and the third in Narcissa.  Note that neither change in Draco or Narcissa led to
their being less loved by their family.  Even Bellatrix still cares very much about
Narcissa.


> > Montavilla47:
> > I don't recall Draco saying that people from Muggle families were the  wrong sort. 
> 
> Pippin:
> Still don't have my book, but I'm pretty sure that Draco asks whether Harry's parents are "our kind", meaning a witch and wizard, and says that the other sort shouldn't be let in (to Hogwarts), because they don't know our ways. He asks Harry what his surname is, and at that point they're interrupted. Harry is deeply upset, though to be fair, Draco is back to back with him and can't see the effect his words are having. 
> 
> But yes, Draco is interested in making friends, but only with certain people. He, unlike Sirius, does not think it would be cool to break family traditions.

Montavilla47:
I don't know that if Harry had mentioned that his mother was Muggleborn that
Draco would have rejected him as friend material.  (Surely Draco would have
known that when he offered his hand to Harry?)  I just saw Draco making 
conversation, like kids do when they meet new people.  Now, maybe if Harry
had challenged Draco's views at this point, Draco might have turned cold
and turned his nose up. Or, maybe he would have modified his statement
to something more politic.

Instead, it's Harry who rejects Draco--who reminds him of Dudley.  

> > Montavilla47:
> > I agree.  The ultimate lesson about Draco seems that, while annoying  and potentially murderous, he's not bad enough to kill or be left to  burn to death.
> 
> Pippin:
> So, what's wrong with that as a lesson? Many, many people have been killed or left to die because they were annoying and potentially murderous, and held to views which in the eyes of decent people  were dangerous, self-defeating and obviously wrong.  

Montavilla47:
Did I say there was anything wrong with it?  I don't think that there is.



> > Montavilla47:
> > Who is the biggest bully in this scene?  Voldemort?  Because, while I  agree that Draco would have gladly been the biggest bully up to end of HBP, I don't see any indication that he wanted it after the scene with  Dumbledore on the tower.  
> > 
> > All he seems to want after that, with the exception that ambiguous 
> > scene in the RoR, is to be left alone.
> 
> Pippin:
> But Draco knew that being left alone was not an option. He's just not that independent. He changed sides  when his parents did, and not before.  
> 
> You don't think that naming a kid "Scorpius" is an indication that the parent has some issues?  I know it's a constellation name, but there are lots of constellations that aren't poisonous vermin.


Montavilla47:

Are you seriously asking me to psychoanalyze Draco because he named
his kid Scorpius?  Honestly, I don't read *anything* into that name.  This
is a world where people are named "Albus" and "Severus"  and sometimes
"Albus Severus!"  


> > Montavilla47:
>   
> > 
> > But... Draco did visit Ron in the hospital wing after Ron was bitten by the dragon.  He ended up nicking the letter from Charlie, but there's no way that he could have known it was there when he went.  And, that moment does show that Ron and Draco could hold a civil conversation.
> 
> Pippin:
> Good catch, but surely Draco went because he was hoping to pick up some information about the dragon, which he did. 

Montavilla47:
I'm sure he did go looking for information about the dragon.  But that doesn't
mean he couldn't get along with Ron.  Obviously, they could get along for the 
time it took for the visit.


> > Montavilla47:
> > I think that depends.  Plenty of people in real life are close to their parents and yet end up rejecting at least some of their values.  That's pretty much a natural process.
> > 
> > I mean, Bill probably loves his parents, but he still wears his hair long --rejecting Molly's values regarding hair length.  He also marries a  girl she disapproves of.  
> 
> Pippin:
> Molly's disapproval didn't extend to  risking jail time to put someone in power who won't allow people to grow their hair or marry people she disapproves of. But she did risk jail time to oppose the Ministry, and we saw how the Weasleys treated the son who defied them on that. I don't think Draco would want to be estranged from his father or have to send back his mother's presents in order not to compromise himself with his new friends. 
> 
> Draco could have changed his views, but he'd have had to pay the same price as Percy, Sirius and Andromeda. But why would he even consider changing them, when his relationship with his parents means so much to him? He might challenge them on minor stuff but on the big issues he's Lucius and Narcissa's man. 

Montavilla47:

I don't know that Draco would have had to pay the same price as Percy, Sirius,
or Andromeda.  For one thing, all three of them had siblings.  It's one thing
to reject a child when you have others waiting in the wings than to reject your
only heir.

It's quite possible that, if Draco had changed his views towards Muggleborn,
that Lucius and Narcissa would have agonized over his youthful folly, but 
tolerated it and continued to love him as much as they ever did.

That's the way *most* parents are.