Snape and Marauders WAS :Draco and Intent

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 186914

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> Montavilla47:
> A lot of people contributed to James and Lily being killed and Harry
> being left alone. Those people include Sybil, Snape, Dumbledore,
> Peter, and Sirius. Oh, and Voldemort.
> 
> If Lily and James were likely to hold grudges after death, they'd
> need to hold them against all those people. Snape might be high
> on that list, but he's hardly the number one person responsible.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Where did I say that Lily and James were likely to hold grudges after death at all???
> 
> In fact in the very post you are replying to I said this :
> 
> "No, I do not think they should hold grudge for all
> eternity, although I would be delighted to see them punch Snape, but that's my
> own satisfaction."
> 
> So to be clear, again, I do not think they will be holding grudges, it is just to me there is a question of degree between forgiving and being grateful.

Montavilla47:

I beg your pardon.  I was assuming that the only thing that
would interfere with their being "grateful" to Snape for the 
times that he saved Harry and for giving his life in service
to the Order would be that they were holding a grudge 
because he told Voldemort about the Prophecy.

My mistake.



Alla:
> As to various people responsible for Lily and James' death and Harry being left alone, the way I see it, each of those people are responsible for their **own** choices. To me the thing is – it is a possibility that without Snape making his choice first none of those people MAY have had a reason to exercise his.

Montavilla47:
True, but you can take it back from there.  If, for example, 
Dumbledore had chosen to interview Trelawney at the castle
instead of the Hogshead, then Snape would not have overheard
the Prophecy and wouldn't have had to make the decision about
taking the information to Voldemort.

Or, if Sybil had simply eaten a hearty meal that evening,
she would not have been so light-headed and might never
have made the Prophecy in the first place.

Or, if Voldemort had not decided to recruit an army of 
wizards to start a reign of terror, there would have been
no need to vanquish him.  If all he'd done was to murder
a few people, it's quite likely that the wizarding world 
would have ignored him completely.

And thus, Snape would never have been recruited and
wouldn't have felt any pressure to deliver prophetic 
bits of information to him.

Also, if Merope hadn't made the love potion and
seduced Tom Riddle, then Voldemort would never
have been born.  Or, if Tom Riddle hadn't stayed in
his home town, but left for school and then traveled to
South Africa to set up a coffee plantation, then Merope
would never have fallen in love with him.

Obviously, Snape is more to blame than anyone else
(except, I think, Merope), because he did a deliberate
act of ill will, I think it's a bit much to give him primary
blame for the deaths of Lily and James, because the 
primary cause was Voldemort.  

Everything else is secondary to that.


Alla: 
> Oh and could you please clarify how exactly Dumbledore is responsible for Lily and James being killed? I hold him responsible a plenty for how he decided Harry's fate, but no, I do not hold him responsible for their deaths at all.


Montavilla47:
He knew he was seeing a true prophecy when he 
heard it.  He knew that, whether it was a true prophecy
or not, Voldemort was likely to take it seriously and
act upon it.  (If Snape knew that much, so did Dumbledore.)

He knew that the Hogshead was filled with shady 
characters, who might or might not be, but probably
were, connected to Dark Wizardry and probably close
enough to Voldemort to come into his purview.  

He knew that Snape had overheard at least part of the
prophecy.  

As J.Odell's essay points out, Dumbledore had sanctioned
obliviation (to a child!) for far less reason than to save a 
life.  

But he doesn't bother to check what Snape had overheard--
doesn't bother to obliviate that information from a likely
Death Eater or Death Eater associate?  He just lets the 
fellow toddle off to tattle to Voldemort?

That seems to me as irresponsible as Sirius pushing 
Peter as a Secret Keeper.

As you say, Sirius isn't in the first rank of responsibility
for that blunder.  And I wouldn't say that Dumbledore was
majorly responsible for what happened to Lily and James.

But I would say that he was somewhat responsible.

Alla:
> And then we have Voldemort and Wormtail. And I will still say that even though one of them is a murderous maniac and another one is stinking traitor, I will still say that without Snape starting all that, there is  a chance that they would not have made their choices. Now of course with Voldemort it is highly likely that he would have gone after Potters anyway, but I remain convinced that such encounter would not have HAD TO end in their deaths. After all three of the previous ones did not.
> 

Montavilla47:
See, I realize that we are discussing opinions and neither of us
is "right" about this, but I can't help seeing Peter as *more* 
responsible.  Snape knew that he was delivering important 
information to Voldemort, but he really didn't know what 
Voldemort was going to do with that information.  I don't think
he cared what Voldemort did with it.

But Peter definitely knew that breaking the secret keeper charm
would result in the deaths of James, Lily, and Harry.  

And Voldemort not only knew that, but he intended to do that 
by his own hand.  Which makes him the *most* responsible
person.  He's the one with the most choice in the matter--and
he chose to murder not only the baby who threatened him, but 
both of the child's parents (which he didn't need to do at all).

And, if Voldemort was *already* after the Potters as members of
the Order of the Phoenix, then Snape's telling Voldemort 
about the prophecy had only two real effects:  

1.  It bumped the Potter up from "kill if you get the chance"
to "kill NOW!"

2.  It gave Snape the leverage to ask that Lily be spared.

In Snape's mind, that may have seemed like a good 
outcome.  If he doesn't tell Voldemort about the prophecy,
then James and Lily will eventually be killed.  If he does
tell Voldemort about the prophecy, Voldemort might be
grateful enough take Lily off the DE hit list.

It's still skeevy, because Snape had to know he was 
endangering some unknown child.  But it wasn't the action
most directly responsible for the deaths of James and Lily.

Nor was it the first action in the chain.  There were plenty
of choices that took place before Snape heard the prophecy
that might have prevented his choice.